Report my Flight Instructor?
Sean Burke
I would like to describe something that happened to me this weekend
and get your opinion. I have decided what I will do about this, but
I would still appreciate input on this situation:
I am a student pilot what had originally taken lessons on two separate
occasions in the past sufficiently enough solo with two different
instructors. Unfortunately, I had to put my plans on hold both times
in the past due to work and school pressures. Recently, I made the
committment and saved enough money to re-start flying lessons. I have
found an instructor at a local airport and have been taking instruction
from him. He says that I should be soloing in two more hours.
On Saturday of this week, we were scheduled to take one of the training
planes ( Cessna 152 ), and he asked me to pre-flight it as usual.
I went to the plane on the ramp and happened to catch the student pilot
who had just taken the same plane on a solo cross-country. I asked him
if the plane was working ok prior to my planned pre-flight check and he
remarked that the radios were acting up and that he wished that they
would fix them. He further elaborated that the same pulse he had been
hearing on the radios was showing up on the fuel guages, causing them to
pulse as well.
Based on this, I asked my instructor if we should consider not using this
plane. He advised me that even if the radios were out, we could use it
since our uncontrolled airport is frequently used by airplanes without
radios. ( Note that this airport has a TCA floor over it at 3000 feet and
has approx 600' in elevation. ) I also speculated to him that we could
pre-flight it ourselves to verify the problem existed and he was also
agreeable to this. I pre-flighted the airplane and everything appeared
normal. At this point, the instructor joined me and I > attempted < to
start the engine. When attempted, the propeller would not turn over
due obviously to a discharged battery.
At this point, the instructor said in effect, " let's roll it over to
the hangar and get it jump started " I said no, I would not fly the
plane in this condition and told him that I would feel better if we
re-scheduled a lesson for another day once the reason for the discharged
battery was determined and repaired. I have thought about this for
two days now and am still uncomfortable about it.
As a result, I have decideded to get another instructor. My question to
you is... would you report this to the FAA regional office, or just
talk directly with the FI about why he is being 'fired'?
Sean Burke
Student Pilot DD0970802
--
Interphase Corp John Schmidt - MIS
13800 Senlac, Dallas, TX 75234-8823 j...@iphase.com
(214) 919-9203 (214) 919-9000 Main (214) 919-9203
m...@iphase.com (214) 919-9200 FAX
Jim Schinnerer
: Story about a failing electrical system/dead battery deleted...
: At this point, the instructor said in effect, " let's roll it over to
: the hangar and get it jump started " I said no, I would not fly the
: plane in this condition and told him that I would feel better if we
: re-scheduled a lesson for another day once the reason for the discharged
: battery was determined and repaired. I have thought about this for
: two days now and am still uncomfortable about it.
:
: As a result, I have decideded to get another instructor. My question to
: you is... would you report this to the FAA regional office, or just
: talk directly with the FI about why he is being 'fired'?
I'm still not sure why you fired your instructor. Did he argue with you
about cancelling the flight? Certainly, if you as the student have a
problem with the aircraft, he shouldn't argue.
But, if he just said OK, let's re-schedule, I don't see what's wrong.
The electrical system doesn't hold the plane up, and the radios don't
make it fly. The only issue here is that the transponder/encoder needs
to work in the 30 mile TCA veil. Depending on what you were to do that
day, this airplane might have been fine for what the instructor had
planned.
Was this the straw that broke the camel's back, or was this the first
time you thought about changing?
---------------------------------------------------------
Jim Schinnerer - PP-ASEL-IA | Hewlett Packard
Buster is gone... | Vancouver, WA
email - schi...@vcd.hp.com | (206) 944-3324
---------------------------------------------------------
Lars-Henrik Eriksson
Fellow Netters,
I would like to describe something that happened to me this weekend
and get your opinion. I have decided what I will do about this, but
I would still appreciate input on this situation:
[Story omitted]
As a result, I have decideded to get another instructor. My question to
you is... would you report this to the FAA regional office, or just
talk directly with the FI about why he is being 'fired'?
Flying an aircraft that had to be jump started because the battery was
insufficiently charged is not in itself hazardous. From the what the
previous student said, is appears that something might be wrong with
the electrical system, possibly with the alternator or voltage
regulator. This could have caused the battery to be discharged.
However, once you got the engine started, you should be able to see
from the ammeter if the alternator is working properly or if the
battery is still discharging.
Provided that flight without radios (or transponder) was legal and not
imprudent due to the traffic situation, it might well be reasonable to
begin the flight even if the electrical system was questionable.
The only major problem you would have with a Cessna 152 if the
electrical system went dead is that you would be unable to extend the
flaps, thus you would need a longer runway than usual and higher
approach speeds. This might or might not be hazardous in a training
situation, depending on if you have trained no-flaps landings yet,
whether you usually use an intercom and would have difficulties
communicating with the instructor without it, etc.
From what you have told us, I can't see you have any ground to report
him to the FAA. I am not even certain you have reason to change
instructor, unless you and he don't get along well.
--
Lars-Henrik Eriksson Internet: l...@sics.se
Swedish Institute of Computer Science Phone (intn'l): +46 8 752 15 09
Box 1263 Telefon (nat'l): 08 - 752 15 09
S-164 28 KISTA, SWEDEN Fax: +46 8 751 72 30
Roger Haaheim
Really? What keeps the spark plugs firing?
Samuel Black
>
>Really? What keeps the spark plugs firing?
>
In certified engines (like Lycomings and Continentals), the magnetos,
which do not require either the battery or alternator to keep firing.
The problem you described with the pulsating radios and fuel gauges
sounds like a faulty alternator or voltage regulator. If you had
flown, you could have possibly experienced electrical failure - a
situation every pilot should be familiar with. However, there was
nothing inherently unsafe about the airplanes condition.
- sam black
PP/ASEL
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Once you remove the absurdity from human existence, there isn't much left.
__________
/ _______/__
/__/______/ / bl...@westford.ccur.com
Concurrent /_________/
Computer Corporation
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Len Fishler
>> The electrical system doesn't hold the plane up,
>
>Really? What keeps the spark plugs firing?
>
The mags. Completely independant and redundant system. In the article you
refer to, I can't see why the student was so upset. Unless there were some
other facts that he didn't relate, the instructor didn't seem to have done
anything wrong. We don't know whether he was insensitive to the concerns
of the student, though. In any event, based upon what was reported, there
certainly was no reason to "report the instructor to the FAA", as no FARs
were violated.
- Len Fishler -
fishl...@tandem.com
PP-ASEL-IA
Centurion N3784Y RHV
Lee Cooprider
>In the article you
>refer to, I can't see why the student was so upset. Unless there were some
>other facts that he didn't relate, the instructor didn't seem to have done
>anything wrong.
It's true that if the electrical system is faulty, the plane will fly.
However, for a student to feel comfortable flying a plane that is "broken" is
asking a bit much. It took me a while to decide to fly my plane, which had
had a complete electrical failure, from Hanscom to Lawrence to get it fixed.
Also, in my case, I knew what the failure was. If there is just some random
unexplained electrical failure, I can understand someone not wanting to fly
it. I don't know of any ways that these symptoms could be a reflection of
some fault that could cause a catastrophic failure, but I but someone could
think of some.
The instructor was probably right; they could have launched and done just
fine. The student was definitely right; when in doubt, stay on the ground.
Perhaps the student, the instructor and the FBO could have a chat and sort out
the issues of fact and perception.
--
Lee W. Cooprider PP-ASEL/IA
Lee_Co...@vos.stratus.com Skylane N2908F "Wiley"
Mike Parker
>
>Flying an aircraft that had to be jump started because the battery was
>insufficiently charged is not in itself hazardous. From the what the
>previous student said, is appears that something might be wrong with
>the electrical system, possibly with the alternator or voltage
>regulator. This could have caused the battery to be discharged.
>
report the instructor involved. But, I can't agree with flying a plane
with a questionable charging system. Lead-acid batteries have been known
to explode when agressively overcharged (stuck closed regulator),
alternators and other electrical system compneents have been known to
catch fire when carrying too much current due to a short. This aircraft
had just been landed and the battery was so flat it would not crank.
There is clearly a problem worth of investigation before flight. We've
all has planes jump started after the master was inadvertently left on,
but that's very different.
mike
Lawrence Uzelac
>> The electrical system doesn't hold the plane up,
>
>Really? What keeps the spark plugs firing?
>
The spark plugs are fired by magnetos which are totally independent
of the elecrical system of the aircraft. The spark is generated by
rotating magnets inside the magneto. The "master" swith in the aircraft
controls the electrical system while the ignition switch ("mag" switch)
controls the dual magnetos. each is independent of the other.
Larry Uzelac
Piper Pacer N7705K
Bob Kirkpatrick
: Fellow Netters,
[story of a dead battery and dubious confidence]
Sean:
First of all, the aircraft engine doesn't require the electrical
system to operate. The only effect you could have experienced is
a loss of a few gauges which, for a pre-solo training flight,
aren't really necessary. Your compass, ASI, altimeter, and maybe
one or two other atmosphericly controlled gauges would function
without dependence on the electrical system. (oil temp is likely
a thermocouple [self contained] and oil pressure is mechanical)
Since you operate from an uncontrolled field, the loss of the
radio would not be particularly negative. The fuel gauges aren't
really that necessary --if you were aware of having full fuel for
a nearby one-hour training flight. In fact, the failure of power
could be *good* training.
I don't think, under the circumstances you describe, that the
instructor did you any wrong, nor do I think that the details you
provided show any recklessness. As such, I see no reason to either
report him nor to have elected to change instructors.
There are many aircraft which fly without benefit of radio or any
electrically powered instruments. In a way, these are for added
safety and a margin of pilot confidence. But so then, is flying
without them.
You make NO error in questioning this. I commend your cautious
attitude. I'm also glad to hear that you're on your way to your
license!
--
bo...@dogear.spk.wa.us_____________________________________________________
Bob Kirkpatrick - Dog Ear'd Systems of Spokane, WA
Alan Merrell
Just an opinion:
I can understand the conservative attitude on the students part.
I think good instruction has to teach a conservative attitude, and
in that regard, why take up a plane with known or questionable
defects in any critical system? Where is line drawn?
I remember expanding my "go ahead and fly" envelope as I gained
experience. Most of this was with weather, and wind, but I
remember "flunking" a plane during preflight because the gas
guage didn't work, even though I could see that the tank was
full.
The plane is flyable, but with a known problem: something is not
right with the electrical system. If any kind of problem results
from this flight (like people or property damage from a forced landing
due to an electrical fire in flight) (or a problem in the pattern
that having a working radio might have prevented) is this opening
up the pilot for the "careless and/reckless" action? (I don't
know the answer, but I'd guess it would).
What kind of decision process is the CFI trying to instill in the
student? (I believe the CFI has the training and experience to
handle the situation for that flight, but is he teaching the
student to make a decision (later on) to begin flight that has
a higher probability of exceeding the students skills to complete
safely? The decision to "go anyway" has to be balanced against
the probable outcomes.
Alan
Andy Stadler
>
>: Story about a failing electrical system/dead battery deleted...
>
>The electrical system doesn't hold the plane up, and the radios don't
>make it fly. The only issue here is that the transponder/encoder needs
>to work in the 30 mile TCA veil. Depending on what you were to do that
>day, this airplane might have been fine for what the instructor had
>planned.
>
only a little bit broken..."]
Come on, you know it's not so simple. The evidence described rather clearly
indicates a failure in the charging system. This means NO dc power will
shortly ensue. There are many more issues besides the transponder/encoder.
* 152's have electric flaps. Do you really think it's wise to launch,
with a KNOWN impending failure of a rather important flight control
surface?
* The alternator/charging system is part of the original certificated
equipment list. It is very likely that leaving the ground with a dead
charging system is in violation of FAR's.
* There are SO many implications to a dead electrical system, in the areas
of safety, legality, and decision making, yet the instructor could think
only of getting a jump start and getting underway.
Obivously none of us know what really happened, but it sounds to me like the
instructor wanted to fly it. This should have been an excellent opportunity
to discuss all sorts of great things like system dependencies, failure modes,
legal issues, and the decision making process. It would have been a terrible
time to actually fly.
Confront, or switch. I say your instructor blew it.
--Andy Stadler PP-ASEL-IA IGI sta...@apple.com
David Josephson
>Fellow Netters,
Don't. You did the right thing. Even as a student pilot, you are
acting as PIC, and you (not the instructor) are responsible for
seeing that the flight is conducted safely. I can guess what happened
(probably a dead alternator, or alternator belt, or voltage
regulator). The next question that brings up is, why didn't you
catch a discharged battery in the preflight? Do you not preflight
the nav lights even when you expect to be flying day VFR only? How
about the beacon? (Frankly, this is all further good reason not to
use this instructor, if he hadn't insisted on those things in the
preflight!)
If the instructor had said, "let's roll it over to the hangar to see
what's the matter with it" I would have gone along. A more knowledgeable
pilot is a safer pilot, and you should be able to troubleshoot
problems like that **when you are on the ground, please** when you
see them. Which you will, especially with rental airplanes...
>As a result, I have decideded to get another instructor. My question to
>you is... would you report this to the FAA regional office, or just
>talk directly with the FI about why he is being 'fired'?
Both. Figure out whether the instructor broke any FARs (look it
up yourself -- it's worth the time). Go talk to the FSDO about the
problem, without mentioning the instructor's name or the airport
where you train, until you decide whether you want to step on his
toe or not. Ask the instructor whether he would consider an
aircraft to be airworthy with items on its equipment list inoperative.
Ask the mechanic the same thing.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Josephson Engineering, San Jose California MICROPHONES
Tel/ 408-238-6062 Fax/ 408-238-6022 INSTRUMENTATION
email:da...@josephson.com ftp info from: rahul.net /pub/davidj/
Christophe Pettus
>Come on, you know it's not so simple. The evidence described rather clearly
>indicates a failure in the charging system. This means NO dc power will
>shortly ensue. There are many more issues besides the transponder/encoder.
Thanks, Andy. The symptoms, as described, sounded exactly like those
that came just before I had a complete alternator failure, at night,
while IFR (fortunately, not in IMC). Aviation delivers a truckload of
uncertainties to you with every flight; why compound them by taking off
with known failing equipment?
Report the instructor to the FAA? Probably not, although mentioning to
a local Accident Prevention Counsellor would probably be an excellent
idea. Change instructors? In an instant. If I were in a club, I'd be
sure the chief instructor knew why I was doing it, too.
--
-- Christophe
"Give me caffeine, and no one gets hurt."
Jordan Brown
>Even as a student pilot, you are
>acting as PIC, and you (not the instructor) are responsible for
>seeing that the flight is conducted safely.
No. Everybody involved should behave as though the student is acting
as PIC, but it is very clear that the student is NOT and cannot possibly
be acting as the PIC. A student pilot may not act as pilot in command
of an aircraft carrying any other person.
>Do you not preflight the nav lights even when you expect to be flying
>day VFR only? How about the beacon?
I must confess that I don't check either of these for a day VFR flight.
I don't turn the nav lights on during the day, and while I do keep the
strobes on they are so disgustingly reliable that there's not much reason
to bother checking them. I would not consider failure of either to be
grounds for aborting a day flight.
I do check all the lights before a day/night or night flight, of course.
>Both. Figure out whether the instructor broke any FARs (look it
>up yourself -- it's worth the time). Go talk to the FSDO about the
>problem, without mentioning the instructor's name or the airport
>where you train, until you decide whether you want to step on his
>toe or not. Ask the instructor whether he would consider an
>aircraft to be airworthy with items on its equipment list inoperative.
>Ask the mechanic the same thing.
While it would probably be educational to research the matter and
discuss it with various people, including the FAA, I don't think it
would be reasonable to (attempt to) start any formal action.
Remember, the current FARs allow operation with equipment inop, as
long as the PIC determines that it isn't needed. (It's a little
more complicated than that; review the actual text if you care.)
William LeFebvre
>Sean Burke (sbu...@iphase.com) wrote:
>: Fellow Netters,
>
>[story of a dead battery and dubious confidence]
>system to operate. The only effect you could have experienced is
>a loss of a few gauges which, for a pre-solo training flight,
>aren't really necessary.
Except the transponder, since the airport is under a TCA. Although
there are quite a few airports exempt from the TCA veil rule, as long
as flights to and from the airports are conducted below specified
altitudes (see SFAR 62, listed, among other places, in AOPA Aviation
USA page 3-50).
>Since you operate from an uncontrolled field, the loss of the
>radio would not be particularly negative. The fuel gauges aren't
>really that necessary --if you were aware of having full fuel for
>a nearby one-hour training flight.
You are right: the fuel gauges are not really necessary in this
situation. But they're still required by FAR 91.205(b). I believe
this is a case of something being safe but still illegal.
William LeFebvre
Computing Facilities Manager and Analyst
Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
Northwestern University
<ph...@eecs.nwu.edu>
David Lesher
# >[story of a dead battery and dubious confidence]
Do all g/a a/c use mags?
I'm thinking maybe of the Porsche Mooney, or was that electronic
fuel injection?
--
A host is a host from coast to coast..wb8foz@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu
& no one will talk to a host that's close............(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
Roger Ritter
>Do all g/a a/c use mags?
>I'm thinking maybe of the Porsche Mooney, or was that electronic
>fuel injection?
The Porsche Mooney used a dual distributor ignition system that required
a working electrical system. To satisfy the FAA, it also had (in essence)
two complete electrical systems.
Other aircraft use a hybrid ignition system. The Cessna 195 with a Jacobs
radial engine, for example, has both a magneto and a distributor type
ignition, each running one-half of the spark plugs.
There have also been diesel aircraft engines (mostly experimental) which
of course have no ignition system at all.
--
Roger Ritter N1FZZ (R.Ri...@ma30.bull.com) PP-ASEL, AGI
1946 Luscombe 8A N71983 "Rocky" the somewhat bent snow angel
Sheep do not so much fly as plummet! - MPFC NH CAP: Profile 49
G. David Frye
an incident where his flight instructor wanted to fly an airplane with
possible electrical problems.
I've thought about this story at length, and I'm reluctant to fault the
flight instructor with anything more than a case of get-in-the-air-itis,
or perhaps a bit of naivete with respect to charging systems.
Before going any further, let me point out to the airchair analysts
among us (me included) that not everyone is a competent airplane
mechanic, and that intermittent electrical weirdness are not uncommon
in aircraft of all types, so there is little justification for
assuming that the instructor was deliberately ignoring a hazardous
condition.
And, in reference to the comments about the FAR's and inoperative
equipment, it appears from Sean's story that all of the equipment
was operating -- but there was a hint that something was "not quite
right".
If the instructor were sending you off on a solo flight, he'd probably
want that airplane to be squeaky-clean. But since it was a dual flight,
he made a decision (as PIC, which he is) that the plane wasn't so bad off
that the flight was in danger. Assuming he knew about the electrical
"tick", he probably assumed the two of you ran the battery down while
putting it through a more extensive preflight than normal (electrical
system on for a long time), thus requiring a jump start.
Suppose the battery was discharged because the charging system was bad.
If he's doing his job, he will determine that after the jump start by
watching the charge meter. There will be an initial indication that
the battery is being charged at a high rate, but the rate should drop
off in a few minutes. If it doesn't, there's a problem. If you live
in an area of the country which has real winter, you get used to this
kind of regimen. It's not unusual for there to be enough battery power
to run the radios but not the starter.
[At this point I'm reminded that, in our C172, the "rotating beacon"
is actually a pulsing light. It induces a "tick" into the electrical
system that we can hear in the intercom and can see on the charge
meter. It's certainly never affected the fuel meters, of course, and
I'd be a little concerned if it did. In the 6 years I've been flying
this particular C172, we've had one actual charging problem caused by
a bad regulator and N dead batteries (where N is some number large
enough for me to have lost track) caused by poor starting techniques
and/or cold weather.]
Clearly, Sean, you have to have a flight instructor that you're
comfortable with. Those here who know my postings know that I'm a
little short on patience with incompetence and a cavalier attitude
toward safety -- yet I cannot fault your instructor with anything
more than a positive attitude toward a plane which he flies every day.
Lord knows there's nothing here to complain to the FAA about. There's
some indication that the FBO needs to be goosed about the quality of
its training aircraft. And it's obvious that you and your instructor
need to discuss the situation and resolve your doubts about his
performance in the incident. If you are uncomfortable with doing so,
you'll definitely need a new instructor, and possibly a new FBO.
P.S. -- it would be helpful for all of us here if you would relay
what was discovered about the electrical system, if anything.
G. David Frye, CFIAI
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
INTERNET: fr...@cerl.uiuc.edu NovaNET: frye / s / nova PHONE: (217) 333-7439
reminder: I post all email flame back to the newsgroup that generated it.
We have a 10-month-old baby. We don't have TIME for a lifestyle.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kenneth Kalan
>>I went to the plane on the ramp and happened to catch the student pilot
>>who had just taken the same plane on a solo cross-country. I asked him
>
One possible idea which wasn't mentioned is, since a student (and could
happen to anyone) was on a solo cross-country, it may have been possible
that he had the Battery only side of the Master switch on and wore
the battery down on his flight back. If everything was shut down
when he left the plane, it would be hard to tell if that was the case since
everything would be switched off.
<< - - More deletion - - >>
>regulator). The next question that brings up is, why didn't you
>catch a discharged battery in the preflight? Do you not preflight
>the nav lights even when you expect to be flying day VFR only? How
>about the beacon? (Frankly, this is all further good reason not to
I don't usuall check the light for day vfr, but even if you did
you may not catch the dead battery. The lights and even radios
could work fine, but the engine could still not crank over.
Starting current is much greater that the current to power
lights or radios. I know this happens to me when I my car is stored
for the winter and I don't charge the battery often enough. The
interior lights and radio work fine, but turn the key and nothing.
Just another possibility.
Ken
-----------------------------------------------------------------__-------------
Kenneth Kalan _===_ / |
PP ASEL | ___/[__ ] \___/__ |
|\__ _|___|_____===/
\/
k...@nwu.edu O
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William J Levenson
>
>Really? What keeps the spark plugs firing?
>
magnetos which are unrelated to the aircraft electrical system.
The magnetos convert mechanical energy into high voltage. The
confusion probably comes from the automobile ignition system which
does rely on the car's electrical system. In a car, if the alternator
goes and the battery dies, the spark plugs don't spark. In a
plane, you can throw away the alternator and battery and the
engine keeps on goin' :-)
Keep in mind that, if the magnetos aren't grounded (i.e. ignition
switch off) they will fire the spark plugs if the prop is turned.
That is why hand propping is possible with a dead battery. So
when checking the mag's during run-up, if you don't get a rpm
drop when one set of mag's are off, it could mean they aren't
properly grounded and could fire the engine up when you least expect
it; like when your turning the prop to lube things on a cold
day. "Good safety tip, Egon!" -- Dr. Venkman
Just some unrequested advice...
Bill
Ron Natalie
>Really? What keeps the spark plugs firing?
In a 152? Can you say magneto? I knew you could...
Ron Natalie
Only required by the FAR's, but there's no reason to believe that they
would work once the plane is refired.
Ron Natalie
Most of the one's with plugs do. Some of the auto conversion engines use
redundant electronic systems instead though.
I remember another fine piece of aviation accident reporting when a mechanic
got killed working on an MU-2 and they reported he was checking the magnetos.
(MU-2's are turboprops).
-Ron
Dr. Daniel R. Masys
>
>I think good instruction has to teach a conservative attitude, and
>in that regard, why take up a plane with known or questionable
>defects in any critical system? Where is line drawn?
>
instructor is teaching judgement. Modeling the judgement that a plane
with a defective electrical system is ok to go fly is teaching the student
that it is ok to take Strike One. (Note that this is very different that
teaching the student to keep flying the plane after an inflight failure
of the electrical system).
Most accidents occur as a result of a cascade of events, not a single
setback. The prudent pilot looks at a situation such as a defective
instrument or system in the airplane, and asks him/herself, if I accept
this, am I accepting a significant limitation of my options when *the
second thing goes wrong*.
Now you may retort that planes have been flying for decades without
electrical systems. But those were planes designed to have no electrical
systems, not aircraft with an energy-generating system (the alternator)
with sufficient power to cause electrical fires due to corroded connections,
frozen contactor relays, and overcharged batteries.
Fate is the hunter, and I guess in this metaphor the pitcher. Don't
go fly after you've taken a called Strike One on the ground if you can
avoid it. Strikes two and three might be 95 mph fast balls that you
never even see...
Dan Masys
ma...@nlm.nih.gov
Eric Curtis
>Fellow Netters,
>
>I would like to describe something that happened to me this weekend
>and get your opinion. I have decided what I will do about this, but
>I would still appreciate input on this situation:
>
In my opinion, I would have flown. The fuel gages are not reliable on
the smaller cesna's. You are suppose to visually verify fuel ammounts
before take off. You do not need radios to land, as it is an uncontrolled
airport. And finally the battery. If you had jubp started the battery,
the plane would have worked fine. The battery would have charged up
after about 15 minutes, and during that time, you would have had not
problemss (except in teh case of an emergency and needed to restart the
engine.)
The C157 &172's that I fly here sometimes have a pulsating noise in the
radios, and we have determined that is is from the strobes. It is nothing
serious, and we have never had a problem.
Finally, let me say that I am NOT saying you should have flown. The
decision you made was the correct one, after all, the PIC is the person
untimately responsible for the plane. If you are not comfortable, do no
fly. Also, if you are not comfortable with your flight instructor, do
not get lessons from him/her anymore. But I would not report him/her to
the FAA as I see that they did nothing seriousally wrong. If you wanted
to you could talk to the manager of the FBO and just tell them what your
ex-flight instructor did and that it made you uncomfortable.
But, then again, these are only my opinions.
THE ERK
--
-----|----- | ecu...@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu | Communications
*>=====[_]D | 1-614-597-5018 / 5097 | Systems Management
-'-`- | PP-ASEL (* I just like the helicopter! *)
Steve Brecher
In <1993May18.2...@qdeck.com>, jbr...@qdeck.com (Jordan Brown)
writes:
> I must confess that I don't check [nav lights nor beacon] for a day VFR
> flight. I don't turn the nav lights on during the day, and while I do keep
> the strobes on they are so disgustingly reliable that there's not much
> reason to bother checking them. I would not consider failure of either to
> be grounds for aborting a day flight.
I used to occasionally not check them prior to short or local day VFR
flights. Now I always check them before the day's first flight for the
following reasons in no particular order:
1) It's a battery check as well. The battery should have enough oomph to
start the engine after the pre-flight electrical item checks/uses.
2) I use the landing light below cruise altitude (in my case, with a
Pulselight which flashes the landing light) for better visibility of my
plane to others. I might as well check all the lights if I'm going to get
out to check the landing light.
3) In the same walk-around during which I check the lights, I check the
stall warning and pitot heat. With respect to both of these, not
*expecting* to need them is no guarantee that they will in fact not be
needed. I might as well check all the lights if... .
4) If any of the lights have failed, prior to a day VFR flight is the best
time to discover the failure. (I own my plane, but for a rental this
applies also with respect to courtesy to the next, and possibly night/IFR,
user.) The same applies to pitot heat (in my case).
--
bre...@well.sf.ca.us (Steve Brecher)
Jordan Brown
>2) I use the landing light below cruise altitude (in my case, with a
>Pulselight which flashes the landing light) for better visibility of my
>plane to others. I might as well check all the lights if I'm going to get
>out to check the landing light.
I occasionally use the landing lights for this purpose, but (a) I don't
consider it a flight-aborting failure and (b) they're visible from
the cockpit, so I don't feel it necessary to check them during the
walkaround.
>3) In the same walk-around during which I check the lights, I check the
>stall warning and pitot heat.
Good point.
>4) If any of the lights have failed, prior to a day VFR flight is the best
>time to discover the failure.
Also an excellent point.
Fred Drinkwater
accidents are caused by / contributed to by the natural reluctance
of a junior flightcrew member to assert concerns (when not PIC) or
take action (when PIC) in the face of "superior" experience in
the other seat. Avoiding this syndrome takes practice, and I would
expect a savvy CFI to take advantage of opportunities to prod the
student to assert the *student's* authority, even against the
apparent advice of the CFI. You occasionally hear stories about
this; they usually end with the CFI saying something like "good for
you, I would have been disappointed if you'd just done what I suggested."
It's possible that the CFI in question here was engaging in this
kind of training, we can't really tell from the story as posted.
I would encourage any student with a concern like this to discuss
it directly with the CFI. Anything that contributes to the quality
of the student-CFI relationship is a Good Thing.
Finally, an earlier poster said something like "The instructor
was *probably* right, but the student was *definitely* right."
I couldn't agree more with this position.
Fred J. Drinkwater
Bob Kirkpatrick
: In article <C78oA...@news.dtc.hp.com> r...@cdc.hp.com (Roger Haaheim) writes:
: >> The electrical system doesn't hold the plane up,
: Keep in mind that, if the magnetos aren't grounded (i.e. ignition
: switch off) they will fire the spark plugs if the prop is turned.
: That is why hand propping is possible with a dead battery. So
: when checking the mag's during run-up, if you don't get a rpm
: drop when one set of mag's are off, it could mean they aren't
: properly grounded and could fire the engine up when you least expect
: it; like when your turning the prop to lube things on a cold
: day. "Good safety tip, Egon!" -- Dr. Venkman
: Just some unrequested advice...
The drop in rpms in a runup is due to the fact that combustion
becomes slightly less efficient when both of the plugs in the
cylinders don't fire together. It is also an indicator of mistiming
or other relatively minor problems when one mag causes an unaccep-
tably greater drop than it should in rpms.
With better fuels and more efficient plugs these days, sometimes no
drop is experienced. However if the mags are improperly wired, one
of the following conditions could exist:
If your mags are miswired, you can have a 'live' mag when the switch
is in the off position. However, this is usually pretty noticable.
Once the engine is started, it can't be switched off by putting the
mag select in the off position. If this is going to happen, it will
most often occur after servicing. This usually isn't really miswiring,
it means one of the mags didn't have its ground wire reconnected.
However, another condition is cross-wiring, which can cause the mag
switch to amount to an on-off switch --it's either off, or both,
regardless if left/right is selected.
Thus, the only condition which could keep the engine 'live' is when
a mag is not connected to the switch, or the switch has malfunctioned.
Such conditions _should_ be discovered fairly quickly --because the
engine won't shut off. So the safety tip to Egon is dead-on correct.
**When turning a prop through, ALWAYS consider the mags to be HOT.**
Greg Rose
>In article <8...@dogear.spk.wa.us> bo...@dogear.spk.wa.us (Bob Kirkpatrick) writes:
>>Sean Burke (sbu...@iphase.com) wrote:
>>[story of a dead battery and dubious confidence]
>>...
>>system to operate. The only effect you could have experienced is
>>a loss of a few gauges which, for a pre-solo training flight,
>>aren't really necessary.
>>radio would not be particularly negative. The fuel gauges aren't
>>really that necessary --if you were aware of having full fuel for
>>a nearby one-hour training flight.
>
>You are right: the fuel gauges are not really necessary in this
>situation. But they're still required by FAR 91.205(b). I believe
>this is a case of something being safe but still illegal.
I have two nits to pick with some of the replies I've seen:
1. Many of the replies have said that "Flight without this or that is
illegal", or needed special conditions or whatever, but I'll remind
people that THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE OF ANY ACTUAL FAILURE. The flat
battery can very easily be caused by someone turning on only half the
master switch to get the ATIS for example, and then leaving it that
way (True confession: I did this exactly once, and now never use half
the master any more). The battery itself is not required equipment,
and anyway, it was flat, not (necessarily) broken. This scenario is
especially likely if someone was trying to debug the alternator...
2. Yes, there was a meter jump. One of the best ways to figure out what
was going on would have been to try and fly the aircraft. Not to
actually do so if there really was evidence of a problem, just to
try...
I personally think that the instructor's only failing was that he
didn't fully explain the thought processes and learning opportunities.
Although I'm not sure he was even given a chance to.
--
Greg Rose Australian Computing and Communications Institute
g...@acci.com.au +61 18 174 842
`Use of the standard phrase "HIJACKED" may be inadvisable' -- CAA
Kerry Kurasaki
>
>The drop in rpms in a runup is due to the fact that combustion
>becomes slightly less efficient when both of the plugs in the
>cylinders don't fire together. It is also an indicator of mistiming
>or other relatively minor problems when one mag causes an unaccep-
>tably greater drop than it should in rpms.
>
>With better fuels and more efficient plugs these days, sometimes no
>drop is experienced.
I have to disagree. All my experience and understanding about internal
combustion engines indicate that the should *always* be some RPM drop
when grounding one mag [set] during the runup. (Accompanied by a rise
in EGT if you have the appropriate instrumentation).
I consider a lack of mag drop to be a NO-GO item. Reason: It's an
indicator that the P-lead may be broken and you might not be able to
disable a mag in-flight when you need to. When would you this happen?
Suppose one mag went screwy and starting firing at the *wrong* time
thereby messing up the timing to the entire engine. Farfetched? It's
happened to me.
Too small of a mag drop is not necessarily an indication of a "great"
engine, but possibly an indication of a mis-timed (too far advanced?)
engine. Excessive advance can result in higher CHTs/EGTs and reduced
detonation margins. Look for consistency in the planes you fly. If
it normally drops 100 RPM, but all of a sudden (like just out of
maintenance) it drops 20 RPM, suspect something. Just be careful out
there!
Bill Hale
Going to the hanger and putting water in the battery probably
would have solved the problem. The tic-tic-tic is due to the
flashing beacon light pulling the buss up and down and will be
noticed somewhat even in a correctly functioning cessna. When the
battery impedance is raised by being discharged or low on water,
effects like this get worse. Jumping the plane and evaluating
how it was working would have been totally appropriate in my opinion.
While I believe operating it in this condition is best left for
the experienced and for a ferry fight for repairs, I would be
outraged if someone got the FAA involved over a matter like this.
They can be so irrational that the result could be blown clear out
of proportion and a royal pain in the ass for the instructor and club.
Doing this without a detailed discussion beforehand with club management
will lead to at least hard feelings. It is difficult
enough to operate efficiently and strictly within the rules at all times
with out some loose cannon using the FAA as a club to second
guess every decision. Instructors work for nothing anyway; do
they need hassles with the FAA?
Just my $.02
+Regards, Bill Hale; ha...@hpfclm.FC.HP.COM [hplabs|hpfcla]!hpfclm!hale
+Thru ether-K0QA; In ether-BE33 N33HP CFIAIME A&P; Twisted pair 1-303-229-3037
+Snail: c/o HP UTD MS73 3404 E Harmony, Ft Collins, CO 80525 Incoming:40 44.2N
+105 33.1W; Pictures 303-229-6858
Jer/ Eberhard
The magnetos fire the plugs.
Once the engine is running, the electrical system is not needed to keep
the engine running (fuel is). I suggest reading the POH to understand
the separate systems.
--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, j...@fc.hp.com, Jer_Eb...@fc.hp.com
Hewlett-Packard SWT, 3404 East Harmony Road MS-298, Ft Collins, CO 80525-9599
Phone 303 229-2861, FAX 303 229-3598, 6UR6, Incoming 40 44.1N x 105 33.0W
NOFZD, Civil Air Patrol, Pikes Peak 218, MSN Check Pilot, CFI Airplane & Glider
Jer/ Eberhard
> About attempting a jump start on an aircraft with a dead battery.
> Sean declined to fly until he knew exactly what caused the
> battery to go dead.
I don't see any problem with your actions, nor the instructor's actions.
If you are uncomfortable with your instructor, I believe you owe it to
yourself and the instructor to discuss the issue to completion. If you
are still not satisfied, I urge you to discuss the issue with the
owner/manager of the place you rent that the instructor works for.
No FARs were broken, nor was safety compromised (unlike most flights
which actually occur). The FAA won't care.
Robert J. Granvin
|> bre...@well.sf.ca.us (Steve Brecher) writes:
|> >2) I use the landing light below cruise altitude (in my case, with a
|> >Pulselight which flashes the landing light) for better visibility of my
|> >plane to others. I might as well check all the lights if I'm going to get
|> >out to check the landing light.
|>
|> I occasionally use the landing lights for this purpose, but (a) I don't
|> consider it a flight-aborting failure and (b) they're visible from
|> the cockpit, so I don't feel it necessary to check them during the
|> walkaround.
We just did a daytime nav light check on our B-25 yesterday. What we
discovered was that the normally four lights had become three. The
port wingtip light was out.
Of course, the rotating beacons practically flood the nav lights, but the
wingtips are not necessarily visible from the cockpit (in fact, the lights
are not).
So a daytime check was good. It's not a preflight item since we have no
intentions to fly anything but day VFR, but we won't resign ourselves to
nothing but.
I'm more comfortable knowing that wingtip light is working if for any reason
the beacons should be lost... We wouldn't have known it in the air.
(OK, OK, so it's bigger than a Cessna. Sue me. :-)
--
\\ Robert J. Granvin User Services Specialist
// School of Statistics - University of Minnesota r...@stat.umn.edu
Ron Natalie
> engine won't shut off. So the safety tip to Egon is dead-on correct.
Except, most people don't touch the mag switch except to go from both
to L and R at run-up time. Engines are usually killed by shutting off
the fuel (though a hot-mag check just prior to shutdown is pretty easy
to do and actually listed in some of the Cessna checklists).
-Ron
chri...@muvms6.wvnet.edu
have me extremely bothered. The battery dead, cmon guys and gals there has got
to be something wrong with the electrical system. Yes, you would fly this
craft....I shall see ya when the Civil Air Patrol comes looking for you...that
is unless you could also care less about your ELT battery going dead. From a
bunch of so called safe pilots this truly does bother me.
Now, if you are totally ignorant about electronics and aircraft, then I
forgive you, but if you are a pilot and maintain any part of your aircraft,
before you fix it, you should know what is wrong. If the battery is dead after
a solo x-c then apparently something is wrong with the electrical system,
definitelty something to do with the alternator. The mags can run independant
of the electrical system, provided the prop keeps turning, for a matter of
time. C'mon people, be safe.
As for firing the instructor....well, like all humans we all have faults.
Though some instructors are out there to make money and will do anything,
including stealing student, and taking flights in an unsafe craft. True that
as long as ya stay underneath the TCA you do not 'need' a radio, but you do
need a transponder within 30 miles, but since you are a student, it is his
bacon that could get cooked, not yours for violation of the FAR's.
But there are some instructors that would have said "Hey, the last guy to fly
this said something about......could you look at it." or "Let's take another
plane."
I sympathise with you the last time this happened to me, I was in my CAP
uniform before a meeting, and at a FBO getting ready to take a lesson, I talked
to the last guy to fly it, he had a prob with the electrical system. I told
the instuctor no, and he insisted. Well, I used me meeting for an excuse.
Later that night we got an ELT notification. My ground team found the plane,
and the instructor had taken a student with him...only after living for a
few minutes talking to me in the back of an ambulance, and in the ER, which I
was later escorted out of, he told me that I, the student was right. This was
the first time that i ever was complemented by him.
Take heed to this and be safe.....but who you fly with is your decistion.
Bob
Keith R. Peterson
>I would like to describe something that happened to me this weekend
>and get your opinion. [various observations explained]
>At this point, the instructor said in effect, " let's roll it over to
>the hangar and get it jump started " I said no, I would not fly the
>plane in this condition and told him that I would feel better if we
>re-scheduled a lesson for another day once the reason for the discharged
>battery was determined and repaired. I have thought about this for
>two days now and am still uncomfortable about it.
>As a result, I have decideded to get another instructor. My question to
>you is... would you report this to the FAA regional office, or just
>talk directly with the FI about why he is being 'fired'?
Sean, I commend you on your conservatism. It is good to be cynical about
the airworthyness of an aircraft and suspicious of anything and everything
that might affect your health.
Part of your training is also learning what things are important
and what things are not. You will find that opinions vary widely on
this, but you will be faced with decisions many times on each flight,
and you will need to be able to make up your own mind each time. In
your training you observe other's standards and personal limits
so as to form your own. Taking this to the net will reinforce that,
give you a wider range of opinion. I predict it will be conservative.
You observed your instructor's personal limits at work. There is no
law that says the battery must be charged, although it could certainly
become important in the air. Again it becomes an interpretation: is
the battery really essential to the safe completion of the flight being
considered? The determination of "reasonable and prudent" keeps a lot
of juries hard a work and lawyers employed. Some would say that 'all
installed equipment must be functional.' Ask them if they've ever
flown with an expired dead-stop sticker or taped over wing-root
vents.
In my opinion we must not put the FAA in the position of making
judgements on this. Many people fly with no battery on board at all.
Are they being reckless? Some people fly with no engine, is that
safe? Some people even fly with no wings, just a big parachute that
might deflate at any moment! Certainly someone should tell the feds!
Personally I would have been quite happy to first decide whether I really
trusted this instructor's judgement at all, not just on battery questions.
He has lots of faster ways to kill you than that. When you've sampled a
few other opinions you can start to replace his judgement on specific
issues with your own.
I'm a pretty conservative guy. I've yelled at pilots to "either go around
that thunderstorm or land here and drop me off!". But I also have learned
a lot from riding with people doing things I didn't understand because I
had made a decision to trust them. God knows my first T-6 aerobatic ride
was like that, as was my first ride in actual IFR.
So lighten up, pick someone you feel you can trust, and learn from the
things that they do that will surprise and concern you. And keep the feds
out of it, they screw up enough things as it is.
EOO: End of Opinion. Next?
KP
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Keith Peterson pet...@rtsg.mot.com Casa De Aero Air Park
Motorola, Inc 48W591 Immelman
Arlington Heights, IL Hampshire, Illinois 60140
(708) 632-2959 (708) 683-4777
Fax (708) 632-4430 Ham N9GLP Cessna 177-RG 33267
--------------------------------------------------------------------
ri...@ttd.teradyne.com
>> The electrical system doesn't hold the plane up,
>
> Really? What keeps the spark plugs firing?
>
It's called a Magneto, and it's independent from the Aircraft Electrical
System.
------
John Rice __|__ K9IJ | "Did I say that?" I must have, but It was
________(*)________ | MY opinion only, no one else's...Especially
o/ \o | Not my Employer's....
ri...@ttd.teradyne.com | Private Pilot : ASEL, AMEL, IA
Jerry Samsen
>I would still appreciate input on this situation:
>
>occasions in the past sufficiently enough solo with two different
>instructors. Unfortunately, I had to put my plans on hold both times
>in the past due to work and school pressures. Recently, I made the
>committment and saved enough money to re-start flying lessons. I have
>found an instructor at a local airport and have been taking instruction
>from him. He says that I should be soloing in two more hours.
>
>On Saturday of this week, we were scheduled to take one of the training
>planes ( Cessna 152 ), and he asked me to pre-flight it as usual.
>I went to the plane on the ramp and happened to catch the student pilot
>who had just taken the same plane on a solo cross-country. I asked him
>remarked that the radios were acting up and that he wished that they
>would fix them. He further elaborated that the same pulse he had been
>hearing on the radios was showing up on the fuel guages, causing them to
>pulse as well.
>
>Based on this, I asked my instructor if we should consider not using this
>plane. He advised me that even if the radios were out, we could use it
>since our uncontrolled airport is frequently used by airplanes without
>radios. ( Note that this airport has a TCA floor over it at 3000 feet and
>has approx 600' in elevation. ) I also speculated to him that we could
>pre-flight it ourselves to verify the problem existed and he was also
>agreeable to this. I pre-flighted the airplane and everything appeared
>normal. At this point, the instructor joined me and I > attempted < to
>start the engine. When attempted, the propeller would not turn over
>due obviously to a discharged battery.
>
>At this point, the instructor said in effect, " let's roll it over to
>the hangar and get it jump started " I said no, I would not fly the
>plane in this condition and told him that I would feel better if we
>re-scheduled a lesson for another day once the reason for the discharged
>battery was determined and repaired. I have thought about this for
>two days now and am still uncomfortable about it.
>
>As a result, I have decideded to get another instructor. My question to
>you is... would you report this to the FAA regional office, or just
>talk directly with the FI about why he is being 'fired'?
Legally, your instructor did nothing wrong. I have flown aircraft which
have been jumpstarted or hand proped. In fact, I've flown a/c that have
no electrical system at all (J4) from a busy TCA (SAN) using just a
handheld radio (of course, the aircraft had a waiver to allow operation
without a transponder).
A radio is not required, but where you are a mode C transponder probably
is. Assuming the transponder worked but the radios did not, there is
nothing legally wrong with flying. Now judgement must be applied with
regard to why the battery was dead and why the radios are flakey and
whether or not this represents a risk. This is highly subjective. If
something does happen then the PIC is guilty of poor preflight prep,
poor judgment and thus subject to FAA action.
Go ahead and call your FSDO. They probably don't care as no illegal act
was made or attempted. Whether or not he acted in a risky fashion is too
subjective and speculative to do much with...
P.S. you fly out of Dallas North?
Jerry Samsen, CFII
San Diego
Jerry Samsen
>> The electrical system doesn't hold the plane up,
>
>Really? What keeps the spark plugs firing?
>
I hope, for the sake of general aviation, your kidding or not a pilot...
Jerry Samsen, CFII
San Diego, CA
Richard Seymour
>>> The electrical system doesn't hold the plane up,
>>Really? What keeps the spark plugs firing?
>In a 152? Can you say magneto? I knew you could...
Cute, but please remember that a lot of non-pilots and not-yet-savvy
people read this list. Magnetos aren't that (obviously) common.
For that matter, dear readers, when did -you- learn of the existence and
operation of magnetos? In my case it was outboard boat motors, and/or
lawnmowers (i think i actually LEARNED about them from the boats, then
noticed that the lawnmower had one... or was i a slave to my parent's
hand-mower until after we had the boat?).
And why don't they have piezoelectric back-ups on aircraft?
(i think i know, that's a rhetorical thought question)
Richard Seymour
>Once the engine is started, it can't be switched off by putting the
>mag select in the off position.
>Such conditions _should_ be discovered fairly quickly --because the
>engine won't shut off.
I must admit that i rarely check if turning the mags OFF actually kills
the motor (sometimes i slip and get there anyway...)
There have been net.discussions about the possibility of a back-fire
during such a check.
When i DO want to kill the prop, i use the method specified by the C172's
POH: pull mixture to idle cut-off, let die. THEN turn off mags.
So i don't get the additional safety check of full-mag-switch-functioning.
But i also avoid exercising the Fire-On-Ground procedures, too.
(this may start a thread similar to the spin-training one)
>**When turning a prop through, ALWAYS consider the mags to be HOT.**
ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ...also when adjusting the prop position,
when pulling the hub when using a steering bar, etc. Also
simply practice keeping out of ANY prop's arc at all times.
-dick
Keith R. Peterson
> I'll remind people that THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE OF ANY ACTUAL FAILURE.
I suspect my comments might have been behind this... I'd agree that
nothing important was proven to have 'failed'...
Semantics aside, it was clear that the starter was not working due to the
dead battery, and the odds of the battery coming to life (even in
light of an indicated positive current flow) could be debated. OK,
that might not be a failure, but it did fail to start.
Actually, I was looking forward to a conversation about whether it
is important to be able to operate the starter in the air, especially
in light of the recent notes about how hard it is to stop a prop when
you want to. I guess with starterless airplanes around that's an accepted
exception from the "cultural MEL" (Minimum Equipment List). I certainly
would fly without one, and have.
I was also thinking about the recent work by the FAA and Cessna in
particular to require that all installed equipment be operational or
marked otherwise in the absense of an MEL (as exists on some larger
equipment). This is just one more place where the feds appear to be
trying to lock us out of making decisions for ourselves. (let's see,
a piece of tape marked 'starter inop' by the key would do it...)
I'm all for conservative, it's just that I want control of defining what
that means. The recent threads on FSS 'worst case' weather are a case
in point... what if we had to file every time they said 'VFR not
recommended?" Less feds is more, I always say.
Richard Hyde
: >3) In the same walk-around during which I check the lights, I check the
: >stall warning and pitot heat.
I'll assume that you don't fly a Cessna :-)
From a 152 POH:
Section 4
Normal Procedures
(7) LEFT WING Leading Edge
2) Stall Warning Opening -- CHECK for stoppage. To check the system,
place a clean handkerchief over the vent opening and apply suction; a
sound from the warning horn will confirm system operation.
One can guess at what they mean by "apply suction". Presumably the
clean handkerchief is designed to keep insect parts above a certain
size out of the vacuum producing device :-)
I check everything else in the manual and quite a few things the manual
doesn't list. Applying "suction" to the stall warning opening seems a
bit much.
So, help me out folks, should I change my evil ways? The feel of the
controls and awareness of flight conditions seem adaquate protection
from an unintentional stall.
Do any of you Cessna drivers *really* preflight this system? :-)
-Rick
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Richard Hyde | R...@netcom.com | This space intentionally left blank |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Natalie
I also check the landing light on day flights, but only indirectly. I turn
it on and watch the ammeter behavior.
-Ron
John Stephens
...I check everything else in the manual and quite a few things the manual
...doesn't list. Applying "suction" to the stall warning opening seems a
...bit much.
...
... So, help me out folks, should I change my evil ways? The feel of the
...controls and awareness of flight conditions seem adaquate protection
...from an unintentional stall.
...
...Do any of you Cessna drivers *really* preflight this system? :-)
I did it a few times when I was a student pilot, but only if there
was a ladder or a stool handy (one of the limitations of not being
7 feet tall :-))
Now, I just do one circuit of the field, and come in for a full
stall touch and go -- if the horn goes off, it works; if i don't
hear the horn, I know it's inop, and will squawk it when I come
back after the flight.
Now, before someone flames me for flying with a (possibly) inop
stall warning, let me remind someone that most (older)
taildraggers don't have stall warnings, and that doesn't strike me
a being "unsafe".
On a more serious note, I do expect this stall warning to be
tested at each 100 hour inspection. In the 3-1/2 years that I
have owned a C-172, I have replaced the horn once. It is cheap.
This was at about 2600 hours total tach time.
********************************************************************
* . *
* John Stephens ._______|_______. Montgomery County Airpark *
* PP-ASEL/IA \(*)/ ( GAI ) *
* C-172P N51078 o/ \o Gaithersburg, Maryland *
* *
********************************************************************
Steve Brecher
> : bre...@well.sf.ca.us (Steve Brecher) writes:
>
> : >3) In the same walk-around during which I check the lights, I check the
> : >stall warning and pitot heat.
>
> I'll assume that you don't fly a Cessna :-)
>
> From a 152 POH:
> ...
> 2) Stall Warning Opening -- CHECK for stoppage. To check the system,
> place a clean handkerchief over the vent opening and apply suction; a
> sound from the warning horn will confirm system operation.
Nope, I fly a Bonanza and used to fly Cherokees. On both, the stall
warning sensor is a freely-hinged vane in the leading edge that is really
a binary angle-of-attack indicator. If the AOA is such that the vane is
pushed up by the relative wind, the stall warning sounds. So it's easy
to check -- just push it up while the battery switch is on and listen for
the horn in the cockpit.
I'm curious about the Cessna sensor -- how does it work?
--
bre...@well.sf.ca.us (Steve Brecher)
Richard Hyde
: Nope, I fly a Bonanza and used to fly Cherokees. On both, the stall
High Tech compared to a Cessnoid :-)
: I'm curious about the Cessna sensor -- how does it work?
Imagine a miniature Harpo Marx horn, minus the rubber bulb, mounted
transversly in the wing root near the pilots head. A duct leads from
the horn to an air inlet on the leading edge of the wing. As the wing
approaches stall, the low pressure on the top of the wing moves forward
and covers the air inlet. This draws air through the horn. Now that
I think about it, there must be a flapper valve in there as well to keep
ram air from activating the warning.
An interesting effect of this system is that the "depth" of the stall
can be measured by the loudness of the horn. When flying at 5 to 10
knots above stall, you notice the result of turbulance and minor control
inputs as a "warbling" in the stall indicator.
-r
Jer/ Eberhard
> combustion engines indicate that the should *always* be some RPM drop
Actually, a correctly functioning engine will have a DROP in EGT when
switched to only one mag. This is due to the less efficient fuel burn,
thus lowering the power and heat output.
Please note that if you are not already on the lean side of peak,
turning on carb heat also drops the EGT indication.
Both carb heat and switching from two to a single mag will result in a
lower RPM.
Gregory R. Travis
>> I have to disagree. All my experience and understanding about internal
>> combustion engines indicate that the should *always* be some RPM drop
>> (Accompanied by a rise in EGT if you have the appropriate instrumentation).
>Actually, a correctly functioning engine will have a DROP in EGT when
>switched to only one mag. This is due to the less efficient fuel burn,
>thus lowering the power and heat output.
Umm, no. Single-mag operation will cause a RISE in EGT in just about
all engines with which I'm familiar. The exception are certain Franklin
engines and other designs which position both sparkplugs on the SAME SIDE
of the cylinder.
With two plugs firing, the mixture is ignited from two separate points
in the cylinder. On all modern Lycoming and Continental powerplants, these
points are 180 degrees apart when viewed from the top of the cylinder.
The effect is two flame-fronts which spread outward and meet, hopefully,
somewhere in the middle of the cylinder.
When only a single plug is firing, there is only one flame-front. This
front must travel completely across the cylinder in order to ignite the
entire mixture.
The net result is that the entire mixture takes longer to fully combust
during single-mag operation. The longer combustion period translates
directly into higher EGT readings as there is less time between the end
of combustion and the opening of the exhaust valve. It also means less
peak combustion pressure (full ignition no longer corresponds
with peak compression), causing a loss of power.
Note that excessively lean mixtures can also cause this as an
oxygen-poor mixture burns slowly; the worst case of this will
have an exhaust valve opening while the mixture is STILL burning.
This scenario will torch the valve in no time at all.
greg
--
Gregory Reed Travis D P S I
Data Parallel Systems Incorporated gr...@dpsi.com (For MX mailers only!)
Bloomington, IN gr...@indiana.edu (For the others)
Bob Koehler
>Nope, I fly a Bonanza and used to fly Cherokees. On both, the stall
>warning sensor is a freely-hinged vane in the leading edge that is really
>a binary angle-of-attack indicator. If the AOA is such that the vane is
>pushed up by the relative wind, the stall warning sounds. So it's easy
>to check -- just push it up while the battery switch is on and listen for
>the horn in the cockpit.
>
Ever fly an older Cherokee? One with no stall warning horn, just a light?
I've never seen a checklist calling for the stall warning to be checked other
than to make sure the little vane really is freely-hinged. Interesting idea,
but I think I'll stick to doing a light check when I'm practicing stalls, much
more realistic.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Koehler | Any illusion to these opinions being other
rkoe...@author.gsfc.nasa.gov | than just mine alone is just that.
Skip Guild
>doesn't list. Applying "suction" to the stall warning opening seems a
>bit much.
>
> So, help me out folks, should I change my evil ways? The feel of the
>controls and awareness of flight conditions seem adaquate protection
>from an unintentional stall.
>
>Do any of you Cessna drivers *really* preflight this system? :-)
>
The Cessna driver I fly with always startles me with a blast from
his stall warning horn as he checks the wing. WITHOUT hankerchief, BTW,
so I assume he's trying to up his protein intake.
We Piper fliers have it easy as we only have to lift a tab on the
wing leading edge and observe a light on the instrument panel to check
the stall warning device. The light is in the upper left portion of
the instrument panel so it's easy to see from the wing.
**********************************************************************
* sk...@mitre.org, | PP-ASEL-IA. *
* FAX (617) 271-3044, | Cessna 150/172/172XP *
* If all else fails human- | Piper Warrior/Archer *
* human at DSN 478-5980 | | *
* (MITRE ext 7619) or | ----|---- *
* (617) 271-7619. | x------(o)------x *
* | 0 0 0 *
**********************************************************************
Kerry Kurasaki
>> I have to disagree. All my experience and understanding about internal
>> combustion engines indicate that the should *always* be some RPM drop
>> (Accompanied by a rise in EGT if you have the appropriate instrumentation).
>
>Actually, a correctly functioning engine will have a DROP in EGT when
>switched to only one mag. This is due to the less efficient fuel burn,
>thus lowering the power and heat output.
>
Sorry, the EGT goes up, and I have observed it as well. The reason is
that the ignition is delayed by having only one flame front instead
of two, and thus the mixture is still "burning" when the exhaust valve
opens. Your statement of efficiency going down is correct, but the heat
output (thermal reactance of fuel, or BTUs) is the same. However,
instead of more of the heat of combustion going into the piston movement,
more goes out the exhaust.
Sounds reasonable? It does to me.
Kerry
Jer/ Eberhard
> : >3) In the same walk-around during which I check the lights, I check the
> : >stall warning and pitot heat.
> From a 152 POH:
> Section 4
> Normal Procedures
> (7) LEFT WING Leading Edge
> 2) Stall Warning Opening -- CHECK for stoppage. To check the system,
> place a clean handkerchief over the vent opening and apply suction; a
> sound from the warning horn will confirm system operation.
> One can guess at what they mean by "apply suction". Presumably the
> clean handkerchief is designed to keep insect parts above a certain
> size out of the vacuum producing device :-)
> Applying "suction" to the stall warning opening seems a bit much.
> So, help me out folks, should I change my evil ways? The feel of the
> controls and awareness of flight conditions seem adaquate protection
> from an unintentional stall.
> Do any of you Cessna drivers *really* preflight this system? :-)
Yes, exactly as described, on every preflight, before every flight!
Anything less is not reasonable and prudent.
Peter Duniho
>Nope, I fly a Bonanza and used to fly Cherokees. On both, the stall
>warning sensor is a freely-hinged vane in the leading edge that is really
>a binary angle-of-attack indicator. If the AOA is such that the vane is
>pushed up by the relative wind, the stall warning sounds. So it's easy
>to check -- just push it up while the battery switch is on and listen for
>the horn in the cockpit.
>
>I'm curious about the Cessna sensor -- how does it work?
My apologies to ERK, since even though I see no replies to
this yet, I'm sure someone else has responded. But, just in
case they haven't (after all, everyone else is probably
thinking "Well, ERK will get upset if I reply, so I should
just keep quiet" and since everyone else is doing that,
I'll go ahead and post), here's my response:
The 152 and 172 both have one of those suction doohickies
(sure, I read that term in the POH! :) ); when you get close
to the stalling angle of attack, the airflow across the
opening creates a negative pressure that pulls air through
a reed (where does this air come from? I dunno...that's a
good question, and someone else with more details should
post) which you can hear from the cockpit.
The 182 has a stall warning just like the Bonanza and
Cherokee. It's just a switch that has a little vane
that sticks out from the leading edge of the wing
which, at a low AOA attack, is kept down by
the airflow, but at an AOA close to the
stalling AOA, the direction of airflow causes
the switch to be pushed up (note, this switch
is _not_ spring loaded or anything; it's very easy to
move) and turns on an electric buzzer in the cockpit.
Testing simply involves pushing the switch up while the
electric is on.
I haven't flown any other Cessnas, so I dunno how
they work. I'd guess the most of the higher end
Cessnas are more like the 182 though.
--
Pete Duniho "Give me a fish, or a mountain, to scale..."
pe...@microsoft.com -- Toy Matinee
Paul Fries
>Nope, I fly a Bonanza and used to fly Cherokees. On both, the stall
>warning sensor is a freely-hinged vane in the leading edge that is really
>a binary angle-of-attack indicator. If the AOA is such that the vane is
>pushed up by the relative wind, the stall warning sounds. So it's easy
>to check -- just push it up while the battery switch is on and listen for
>the horn in the cockpit.
>I'm curious about the Cessna sensor -- how does it work?
When approaching the stall angle-of-attack, the center of
the low pressure area atop the wing moves forward, towards
to leading edge. When it moves sufficiently forward, it
sucks on the stall horn port, just as the pilot would have
during the preflight.
Paul Fries
p...@alantec.com
Stormwind
>I check everything else in the manual and quite a few things the manual
>doesn't list. Applying "suction" to the stall warning opening seems a
>bit much.
>
> So, help me out folks, should I change my evil ways? The feel of the
>controls and awareness of flight conditions seem adaquate protection
>from an unintentional stall.
>
>Do any of you Cessna drivers *really* preflight this system? :-)
yep. in fact, i once wreaked very
satisfactory revenge on my flight
instructor by giving a *particularly*
healthy suck on the stall warning horn
while said instructor was tinkering with
something on the floor of the cockpit.
i'm six feet tall, so 152s weren't a
problem. 172s, however, are slightly
taller than i am. during my introduction
to a 172, i considered trying to jump
up and catch it on the fly, but decided
this was a very good strategy to lose some
teeth. my instructor solved this by
picking me up and holding me long enough
for me to test the thing. we nearly busted
our ribs laughing over this, so now i
simply drag out the lockbox that conveniently
lives under that wing, hop up on that, and
test the horn.
stormwind
hell's amazon
Jordan Brown
Back when I drove Cessnas I did indeed preflight this system on 152s.
On 172s I couldn't quite reach; I'm tall but not quite tall enough.
Ken Maples
my 172 also before I traded up to the 182. Takes just a second and I recently
discovered the device in the 182 to have broken. Try buying a new one. The
heated variety for the 182 (brand new from Cessna) is ~$900!!!!! I was sure
the guy was pulling my leg so I called another dealer and got the same
answer. Unheated it's only ~$500. What a deal! I went to a aircraft salvage
yard and got a used one for $70. And this from a 25 year old destroyed plane!
I opened up the old broken device and found the identical switch in a parts
catalog for about 5 bucks. I think this tops the all time list for inflated
aircraft parts prices.
Ken Maples
map...@cadence.com
Bruce Taylor
About the Cessnoid Stall Sensors:
The air operated stall horns are indeed useful for gauging the depth
of a stall condition, from the timbre of the horn.
When I transitioned into my club's 182, I thought I'd lost that fine
sensitivity, due to the electrical style sensor.
Not to worry -- the front seat ventilation system howls just fine near
stall. One of those little known aerial arias :-)
- Bruce
Will Crowder
(Jerry Samsen) writes:
|> Go ahead and call your FSDO. They probably don't care as no illegal act
|> was made or attempted. Whether or not he acted in a risky fashion is too
|> subjective and speculative to do much with...
So why call the FSDO? Why get them involved at all? Why even mention
this (probably totally innocent) instructor's name to them? It's not
going to help anything, and it could hurt.
Here we have a very inexperienced student, and an at least somewhat
more experienced instructor pilot. The student was uncomfortable
flying in that airplane at that time and chose not to. That's a good
thing! It doesn't matter if the plane is up and happy with zero
squawks, etc. If you're uncomfortable, don't fly. If you don't like
your instructor, get another one. Simple stuff. But report the guy?
That's absurd. As others have said, discuss it with the instructor,
the FBO, other instructors, whatever. But, IMHO, there's no need to
get the FSDO involved.
Will
PP-ASEL-IA
--
Will Crowder | "I'm from the FAA and I'm here
Senior Member of Technical Staff | to help you."
(wil...@ivy.isc.com) |
INTERACTIVE Systems Corp. | "Uh oh."
Will Crowder
(Jerry Samsen) writes:
|> In article <C78oA...@news.dtc.hp.com> r...@cdc.hp.com (Roger Haaheim) writes:
|> >> The electrical system doesn't hold the plane up,
|> >
|> >Really? What keeps the spark plugs firing?
|> >
|>
|> I hope, for the sake of general aviation, your kidding or not a pilot...
Maybe we should stick the FSDO on him... :) :)
--
Will Crowder | "Any airplane you can't roll ain't
Senior Member of Technical Staff | no damn good!" - Tex Johnston
(wil...@ivy.isc.com) |------------------------------------------
INTERACTIVE Systems Corp. | (Member, WS/JF Fan Club)
Jeffrey M. Matthews <jmmatthe>
>This suprises me. Myself if the fuel gages were pulsing like that this would
>have me extremely bothered. The battery dead, cmon guys and gals there has got
>to be something wrong with the electrical system. Yes, you would fly this
>craft....I shall see ya when the Civil Air Patrol comes looking for you...that
>is unless you could also care less about your ELT battery going dead. From a
>bunch of so called safe pilots this truly does bother me.
>
I would be rather annoyed to find the fuel gauges pulsing or the battery
dead. But I have never flown an airplane in which a total electric fail-
ure in VMC should be more than a darn nuisance. I might have to crank the
gear down by hand, I might have to land a little faster, and I might have
to actually look outside the airplane to get un-lost, but to suggest that
I am in any immediate danger is ridiculous. (Obviously, I haven't flown
anything with Curtiss electrically controlled props or FBW, but I think
the preceding statement is applicable to GA singles and non-turbine twins.)
> Now, if you are totally ignorant about electronics and aircraft, then I
>forgive you, but if you are a pilot and maintain any part of your aircraft,
>before you fix it, you should know what is wrong. If the battery is dead after
>a solo x-c then apparently something is wrong with the electrical system,
>definitelty something to do with the alternator. The mags can run independant
>of the electrical system, provided the prop keeps turning, for a matter of
>time. C'mon people, be safe.
>
No, it's not definitely something to do with the alternator. Could be as
simple as a dry battery, open field breaker in the regulator, pitot heat
left on, or a stuck battery contactor. We don't know for sure that the
battery was dead; it could have been a stuck starter solenoid or a poor
cable connection, though the radio problems might point most strongly to
battery/alternator problems.
The mags always run independent of the electrical system (unless the air-
plane has a "shower of sparks" starting circuit, in which case they almost
always run independent). The engine will run until the fuel is exhausted
or it is shut down.
> As for firing the instructor....well, like all humans we all have faults.
>Though some instructors are out there to make money and will do anything,
>including stealing student, and taking flights in an unsafe craft. True that
>as long as ya stay underneath the TCA you do not 'need' a radio, but you do
>need a transponder within 30 miles, but since you are a student, it is his
>bacon that could get cooked, not yours for violation of the FAR's.
>
Well, suppose the plane had been jumped off, and with *both* sides of the
master switch in the "on" position, they had found that the radios worked
fine and the fuel gauges were steady. Would they have been safe in making
a local flight?
> But there are some instructors that would have said "Hey, the last guy to fly
>this said something about......could you look at it." or "Let's take another
>plane."
>
Mighta shoulda.
> I sympathise with you the last time this happened to me, I was in my CAP
>uniform before a meeting, and at a FBO getting ready to take a lesson, I talked
>to the last guy to fly it, he had a prob with the electrical system. I told
>the instuctor no, and he insisted. Well, I used me meeting for an excuse.
>Later that night we got an ELT notification. My ground team found the plane,
> and the instructor had taken a student with him...only after living for a
> few minutes talking to me in the back of an ambulance, and in the ER, which I
> was later escorted out of, he told me that I, the student was right. This was
>the first time that i ever was complemented by him.
>
Oh, come now!
>Take heed to this and be safe.....but who you fly with is your decistion.
>
>Bob
Well, I once flew with a fellow who refused to make a 100 mi. midday VFR
cross country because of an inoperative VOR. But then, he used to get
lost with *both* of them working.
Would I fly the airplane in question? If, after checking the obvious, like
belt tension, battery water, etc., and jumping it off, it appeared to work
normally, I'd certainly use it for local work. I'd maybe keep a bit closer
eye on the ammeter, and after the flight see how the battery held a charge.
I'd let the owner/operator know to check it the next day, and look into it
in detail if it hadn't charged or wouldn't hold a charge overnight.
If, after being jumped off, it continued acting up, I'd do it a favor and
look into it in more detail. With the student. A pilot should be capable
of at least the regular preventive maintenance, and should have the oppor-
tunity to watch more involved procedures.
Would I take issue with someone who was somewhat less cautious? Only to
the extent of discussing the details of the case. Not lecturing him, mind
you, just kicking it around over a Coke. One or the other of us might
learn something.
I'd hold short, in other words, of writing his obituary.
Jeff Matthews
Standard Disclaimers Apply
Allen Miller
|>
|> I check everything else in the manual and quite a few things the manual
|> doesn't list. Applying "suction" to the stall warning opening seems a
|> bit much.
|>
|> So, help me out folks, should I change my evil ways? The feel of the
|> controls and awareness of flight conditions seem adaquate protection
|> from an unintentional stall.
|>
|> Do any of you Cessna drivers *really* preflight this system? :-)
Yup. Since I don't routinely carry a handkerchief I usually just rub
it off and suck. I bicycle just about everywhere I go and I figure a few
more bugs probably wont hurt anything.
I had a funny stall-horn experience Friday. I was at about 13,500 ft in
fairly steep climb when what sounded like a stall warning horn went off.
Pushed forward, ... no change. Wait a minute, I'm not in an airplane!
I am driving a VW Jetta up Pikes Peak. Turns out this car has a buzzer,
which sounds surprisingly similar to the "Wichta Kazoo", connected to
the oil pressure warning light. The nose high attitude had caused the
oil in the engine to drain away from the oil pump resulting in a temporary
loss of oil pressure. The warning went away when the slope eased.
At the nearest flat ground we checked the oil level, which was fine.
I still think it is funny that my first reaction was to try to lower the
nose of the car.
--
Allen Miller mil...@lamar.colostate.edu
Department of Physics
Colorado State University
Fort Collins CO
Allen Miller mil...@lamar.colostate.edu
Department of Physics
Colorado State University
Mark Hutching
Wing suckers of the world unite !!!!
I do too, though my flight instructor warned me of the spiders that OFTEN
make nests in the stall warning port of our C172. An ammeter and voltmeter
fluctuation is enough of a landing light check for me during a daytime
flight. NB In New Zealand , VFR flight is illegal at night except under
special circumstances, one of which is that it must be conducted within
25 NM of a night equipped aerodrome.
Mark Dunn
>: bre...@well.sf.ca.us (Steve Brecher) writes:
>
>: >3) In the same walk-around during which I check the lights, I check the
>: >stall warning and pitot heat.
>
>I'll assume that you don't fly a Cessna :-)
>
>From a 152 POH:
>
>
>Do any of you Cessna drivers *really* preflight this system? :-)
>
>-Rick
Most definitely....Check it EVERY time I fly (152's and 172's). Why?
Because I didn't one time. As a student on a solo flight, the plan
called for stalls practice. Climbed to 3500' and slowed the 172 down
and about the time I noticed the absence of the horn, the stall break
occurred. Have to say it was most disconcerting.
When I got back, I checked it using the above mentioned "suction" technique
and verified that the horn was inop. Squawked it so the next person wouldn't
be unpleasantly surprised.
*============================================================*
* Mark Dunn PP-ASEL IBM Corp. *
* md...@vnet.ibm.com Int'l Tech. Support Ctr. *
* Poughkeepsie, NY *
*============================================================*
Richard Acuff
>Most definitely....Check it EVERY time I fly (152's and 172's). Why?
>Because I didn't one time. As a student on a solo flight, the plan
>called for stalls practice. Climbed to 3500' and slowed the 172 down
>and about the time I noticed the absence of the horn, the stall break
>occurred. Have to say it was most disconcerting.
>When I got back, I checked it using the above mentioned "suction" technique
>and verified that the horn was inop. Squawked it so the next person wouldn't
>be unpleasantly surprised.
Sounds like a good experience] I wonder how many instructors disable
the stall warning so the student gets an ideas of what a stall feels
like without it? Isn't it better to learn to listen to the airplane
directly?
-- Rich
Jeffrey M. Matthews <jmmatthe>
>Richard Hyde (r...@netcom.com) wrote:
>
Re: Cessna stall warning systems, but extending to stall warning systems
in general.
>> Do any of you Cessna drivers *really* preflight this system? :-)
>
>Yes, exactly as described, on every preflight, before every flight!
>
>Anything less is not reasonable and prudent.
>
>--
No. It is reasonable and prudent to preflight the system. However, it
is also reasonable and prudent not to, if the pilot is aware that the
system might not work, and accepts that fact. Or desires it.
Now, it may (or may not, depending on just when the airplane was certified)
be illegal to fly with an inoperative stall horn, but legality and prudence
are but distant cousins. For example, which is less prudent, to depart on
a night IFR flight in a single with no secondary means of navigation/com-
munication, or to depart on a day VFR flight in an aircraft with no stall
warning horn? Which is less legal?
It is also reasonable and prudent to maintain the ability to fly the air-
plane without dependence on the stall horn. I will refrain from making
statements on the prudence of doing otherwise, as many have survived it.