Piper Warrior-No Control Lock?
Geoff Semler
>After flying Cessna's for the entire duration of my short aviation
>career I decided to get checked out in a Piper this last week.
>I really like the handling of the Piper, but I was suprised when I got
>into the cockpit that the seatbelts were wrapped around the yoke. My
>CFI told me that the Piper's don't have "gust locks" and told me that
>they wrap the seatbelts around like that instead.
>
>Is this for real? It seems like the control lock would be a basic
>design requirement for a plane. Can anyone shed some light on this
>for me as I am immensely curious how a plane designer could miss such
>a seemingly simple feature.
>
>BTW the seatbelts on the plane were very twisted and tangled from
>being tied in knots. I wonder if that affects their safety?
>
>Realize I am speaking from a limited aviation experience I appreciate
>any insight on this.
Piper used to have a control lock that was a hole in the column with a pin
through. The story I heard is that some idiot used a nail instead of a
control lock, and an even bigger idiot tried to take off with the nail in
place. The inevitable legal action followed, the US legal system did its
usual stuff, and Piper decided that control locks cost too much in
litigation so they cut them out. So, in summary, nothing wrong with the
design, everything wrong with the American legal system. Now what other
examples can I think of......yesterday.....
Geoff Semler
============
Jeff Oslick
kind of a collar-and-pin that fits over the yoke stem like Cessna's.
How many stick controlled aircraft have control locks? I've only
flown in Super Cubs and Decathalons and don't remember any lock,
other than the seatbelt.
___________
Jeff Oslick.......................PP-ASEL
Dept. of Geological Sciences
Brown University
Providence, RI
TriSoft
Actually, your observations are accurate and insightful. Unfortunately, you
are trying to use LOGIC in an area that doesn't always rely on such. <G>
The seatbelt trick is as recommended in the Piper POH. And yes, it does
leave the seatbelt twisted over time.
Much worse, however, is that it raises the stabilator tail to the full up
position. Unfortunately, where the drain holes are in relation to the
baffles, the stabilator then fills up with water during the next rain
shower. This water then remains inside the stabilator until it either
evaporates (which could take weeks) or until preflight (when it comes
cascading out in a foul torrent all over the shoes of the pilot doing the
preflight).
There was even, I believe, an accident some years before involving the
above. Only the problem was that between the time it rained and the time the
plane flew - IT FROZE. Nothing was observed amiss during pre-flight. But
when the plane entered cruise there was a severe tail flutter cause by a
MAJOR imbalance in the stabilator.
A much better solution for a gust lock is to make one out of a couple of
bungees (with a twist in the middle, sort of a figure X) and hook between
the yoke and the rudder peddles. This not only keeps the stabilator in the
DOWN position, but also "soft braces" the ailerons in the neutral position.
They can wiggle a little, but will not hit the stops.
I believe a company advertises such a gizmo for sale, pre-made, in the
Cherokee Pilot's Assc. magazine. Most folks just build one.
james knox
Phaedra A Hise
together with a bolt and butterfly nut. You attach them to the control
surfaces to keep them from flopping around. We always did the seatbelt
thing in the Archer and Arrow, but didn't twist it all up. Actually,
that's what I always did in Cessnas also.
--
____________________________________________________
* Phaedra Hise * hi...@world.std.com * phaedr...@incmag.com *
"Remember--no matter where you go, there you are." --Buckaroo Banzai
John Godwin
[snip]
>CFI told me that the Piper's don't have "gust locks" and told me that
>they wrap the seatbelts around like that instead.
If you do, remember to connect the seatbelt LOOSELY (otherwise you'll
bend the control column).
John Godwin
Deleos
career I decided to get checked out in a Piper this last week.
I really like the handling of the Piper, but I was suprised when I got
into the cockpit that the seatbelts were wrapped around the yoke. My
they wrap the seatbelts around like that instead.
Is this for real? It seems like the control lock would be a basic
design requirement for a plane. Can anyone shed some light on this
for me as I am immensely curious how a plane designer could miss such
a seemingly simple feature.
BTW the seatbelts on the plane were very twisted and tangled from
being tied in knots. I wonder if that affects their safety?
Realize I am speaking from a limited aviation experience I appreciate
any insight on this.
Regards
--deleos
del...@gate.net
Kyle Bankus
: You can get those rudder gust locks that are basically two boards held
: surfaces to keep them from flopping around. We always did the seatbelt
: thing in the Archer and Arrow, but didn't twist it all up. Actually,
: that's what I always did in Cessnas also.
: --
:>>> ____________________________________________________
>>>cost a couple of dollars at a hardware store. Thus, it keeps the yokes
>>>snug and the slight tension doesn't allow the stab. to move in normal
>>>wind. -Kyle
: * Phaedra Hise * hi...@world.std.com * phaedr...@incmag.com *
Dave Martin
wrote:
>Much worse, however, is that it raises the stabilator tail to the full up
>position. Unfortunately, where the drain holes are in relation to the
>baffles, the stabilator then fills up with water during the next rain
>shower. This water then remains inside the stabilator until it either
>evaporates (which could take weeks) or until preflight (when it comes
>cascading out in a foul torrent all over the shoes of the pilot doing the
>preflight).
>
>There was even, I believe, an accident some years before involving the
>above. Only the problem was that between the time it rained and the time
the
>plane flew - IT FROZE.
This reminded me of a flight I had in my FBO's Piper Cherokee 180. It
rained the night before my flight, and subsequently froze by morning. I
knew this because the door was very hard to get open due to the ice. I did
my usual preflight and noticed no other discrepancies, so I blasted off.
The engine was running so rough after I leveled out, I thought it was going
to fail. I turned back to the pattern and landed. Taxiing back, the engine
was running so rough I thought it would fall out of the cowl. I asked a CFI
at the FBO if anyone had problems on the last flight. He was worried
enough about it to walk back out to the plane with me and check it out. Of
course, when we started it up and taxied around it ran perfectly.
What I think happened was this:
The rain on the previous night puddled in the bottom of the prop spinner.
Then it froze. What I experienced was a seriously out-of-balance prop.
When I parked the plane to talk to the CFI, the sun melted the ice in the
spinner. Sure enough, when I looked on the ground where it was parked,
there was a puddle of water. Now I really look over the plane if I know it
was rained or snowed on.
Dave Martin
St. Cloud, MN
Lee McGee
<Jeffrey...@Brown.edu> writes:
|> How many stick controlled aircraft have control locks? I've only
|> flown in Super Cubs and Decathalons and don't remember any lock,
|> other than the seatbelt.
The Grob G-115 series has a control lock for the stick, a really neat
piece of metal hardware with a spring-latch that hooks under the panel
lower lip, and clamps the stick in the neutral position.
--
Lee McGee lmc...@corp.sgi.com |
(415)390-2403 FAX (415)390-5748 GRUMMAN _|_
AA-5B ____/___\____
"When I fly, I feel an isolation ___________[=o=]___________
extreme and radiant" TIGER e/ o \e
- Peter Garrison
Robert C. Johnson
In our flying club, we use one of those "CLUB" knock offs as a gust lock.
It prevents the seatbelts from getting demolished, and provides a minimal
(and I do mean minimal - it's easy to take it off) amount of security. We
generally hook one end to the pilots right ruder, and the other end to the
left hand side of the co-pilot's yoke. Works very well, even for high
wind situations.
Robert
rjoh...@iadfw.net
In article <451tvr$c...@dasher.cc.bellcore.com>, pat...@cc.bellcore.com
(patterson,george r) wrote:
> In article <44ta2a$e...@news.gate.net>, Deleos <del...@gate.net> wrote:
>
> >I really like the handling of the Piper, but I was suprised when I got
> >into the cockpit that the seatbelts were wrapped around the yoke. My
> >CFI told me that the Piper's don't have "gust locks" and told me that
> >they wrap the seatbelts around like that instead.
> >Is this for real?
>
> Yep. My new Maule is the same way, and I use the belts to tie the yoke
> back.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> | I get up in the morning and collect my wits,
> | pick up the paper and read the obits.
> George Patterson - | If I'm not there, I know I'm not dead,
> | so I eat a good breakfast and go back to bed.
> | Pete Seeger
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael J. Fencer
are renowned for carb ice build up during the taxi phase of opereation.
Sometimes it is only moisture build up until climb out, at which time it
begins to freeze. As in your story, I also experienced smooth power
plant performance upon returnong to the ramp. I did not see any mention
of extreme vibration as would acompany out of balance prop, so I suspect
that might have been the case. I have since taken to taxing with carb
heat on during the winter months while taxing low wing air craft.
Andrew Boyd
>
>Yep. My new Maule is the same way, and I use the belts to tie the yoke
>back.
Dunno if your flaps are the same as mine, george, but they're
free to bang down when there's a wind from the rear. To solve
this, in my transient bag I keep a couple of $porty$ control
locks [two padded blocks of wood with a threaded rod] and use
them to tie the flaps and the ailerons together.
This also has the nice side effect of stopping the ailerons
from moving, too.
--
#include <std.disclaimer>
Andrew Boyd
>The pipers are renowned for carb ice build up during the taxi phase
>of operation
note that all lycoming engines, which have the carburetor bolted to
the bottom of the engine, will be vulnerable to carb ice when the
oil is cold.
When the oil is warmed up, it takes very unusual circumstances to
build carb ice in a lycoming. With an continental, it takes very
unusual circumstances to *not* build carb ice :>
>I have since taken to taxing with carb heat on during the winter months
>while taxing low wing air craft.
there are two problems with this:
1) you may experience fod by using unfiltered air [via the carb heat]
2) the engine really isn't generating much heat at idle
I might suggest that you taxi with the carb heat off, and during
your runup [in a place away from fod] leave the carb heat on for
a good, long time at 1700 rpm [or whatever] while you take your
time and check the mags, mixture, prop, etc. I'd even do the
pre-takeoff checks.
This will burn off any carb ice that has accumulated. Then,
*immediately* take off. If you cannot, get the rpm up again
to keep the exhaust warm, and get the carb heat back on until
you can.
Many aircraft have been wrecked because of carb ice on that
first takeoff.
--
#include <std.disclaimer>
Ron Natalie
: In article <3tsf...@qnx.com>, Andrew Boyd <ab...@qnx.com> wrote:
: >Dunno if your flaps are the same as mine, george, but they're
: >free to bang down when there's a wind from the rear.
: Apparently not. Mine are controlled by a Johnson bar, which has a
: pushbutton lock (sort of like the old Volkswagen parking brake). The
: flaps will lock in any of four positions and won't move unless the
The handle locks, are you sure the flaps do?
Reece R. Pollack
They lock well enough that I can stand on the trailing edge of the
right flap and it will not "bang down". Since the left and right flaps
on a Cherokee are attached to the same actuator arm, I'd bet against
the flaps "banging down" in the wind.
--
Reece R. Pollack
PP-ASEL-IA -- N1707H Piper Arrow III (based GAI)
Paul Tomblin
>patterson,george r (pat...@cc.bellcore.com) wrote:
>: In article <3tsf...@qnx.com>, Andrew Boyd <ab...@qnx.com> wrote:
>
>: >Dunno if your flaps are the same as mine, george, but they're
>: >free to bang down when there's a wind from the rear.
>
>: Apparently not. Mine are controlled by a Johnson bar, which has a
>: pushbutton lock (sort of like the old Volkswagen parking brake). The
>: flaps will lock in any of four positions and won't move unless the
>
>The handle locks, are you sure the flaps do?
Considering that on the Warrior, you can STAND ON THE FLAP when climbing in,
I'd guess that yes, the flaps do lock into place when the bar is locked into
place.
I always step over the flap part, but my instructor doesn't, and it's marked
inside the flap hinge that you can't stand on it if the flap is down. And
when it's down, I grab it and try to wiggle it during pre-flight.
--
Paul Tomblin (ptom...@canoe.com or ptom...@compass.roc.servtech.com)
<a href="http://www.servtech.com/public/ptomblin/">My home page</a>
"Someday O.J's going to kill me, and he's going to get away with it."
- Nicole Brown Simpson.
patterson,george r
>Dunno if your flaps are the same as mine, george, but they're
>free to bang down when there's a wind from the rear.
Apparently not. Mine are controlled by a Johnson bar, which has a
pushbutton lock (sort of like the old Volkswagen parking brake). The
flaps will lock in any of four positions and won't move unless the
button is pressed.
So far.
The aircraft only has about 32 tach hours on it. Is this something I
can look forward to as it gets older?
I use both belts and wrap them around the inside horns of the yokes. This
keeps the ailerons from moving and keeps the elevators up to hold the
tail down.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| Arguing with engineers is like mud-wrestling
George Patterson - | with pigs. Sooner or later you'll realize that
| they like it.
|
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Robbins
You can freely move them down by hand. If you lock them at the first
notch, you can get out and push them to the second by hand.
Steve Robbins
Fred Black
Reece R. Pollack <re...@eco.twg.com> wrote:
>
>In article <45m88a$8...@topaz.sensor.com>, r...@topaz.sensor.com (Ron Natalie) writes:
>|>patterson,george r (pat...@cc.bellcore.com) wrote:
>|>
>|>: >Dunno if your flaps are the same as mine, george, but they're
>|>: >free to bang down when there's a wind from the rear.
>|>
>|>: Apparently not. Mine are controlled by a Johnson bar, which has a
>|>: pushbutton lock (sort of like the old Volkswagen parking brake). The
>|>: flaps will lock in any of four positions and won't move unless the
>|>
>
>right flap and it will not "bang down". Since the left and right flaps
>on a Cherokee are attached to the same actuator arm, I'd bet against
>the flaps "banging down" in the wind.
Isn't this thread about the flaps on a Maule (high wing tail dragger)?
I'm not familiar with the Maule, but I can say that the flaps on the
Citabria my Gliding Club tows with are free to bank down if there is
enough wind from the rear. The Johnson bar pushes them down but they
are held up only by a spring.
--
Fred G. Black, Peng. E-mail: bl...@bnr.ca Northern Telecom
PP-ASEL,G Phone: (613)-763-7452 (W) P.O. Box 3511 StationC
(613)-823-6017 (H) Ottawa, Ontario
My opinions only Canada K1Y 4H7
Linwood Ferguson
> patterson,george r (pat...@cc.bellcore.com) wrote:
> : In article <3tsf...@qnx.com>, Andrew Boyd <ab...@qnx.com> wrote:
>
> : >Dunno if your flaps are the same as mine, george, but they're
> : >free to bang down when there's a wind from the rear.
>
> : Apparently not. Mine are controlled by a Johnson bar, which has a
> : pushbutton lock (sort of like the old Volkswagen parking brake). The
> : flaps will lock in any of four positions and won't move unless the
>
> The handle locks, are you sure the flaps do?
If it is like mine ('78 Arrow) the handle locks in the sense you cannot push
down (which is the direction the relative wind is pushing in flight) but it
is designed so you can grab the handle and pull up (more flaps) without
pushing the button. A lot like an emergency brake; you can make it tighter
without pushing the release but not looser.
However, there is a separate lock when the handle is completely down
(flaps up) so you can walk on the flaps. So when parked with flaps
retracted there is no danger of wind moving them. But if you've
ever left a notch of flaps in and tried to step onto them you'll find
they do not lock there (as you pick yourself up off the ground). At
least on mine and others I've flown. Did some models lock in all positions?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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