"Ground point niner."???
Peter D. Brown
> To me, it seems utterly ridiculous to say 'niner' when radio contact
> is loud and clear (ie. 99.99% of the time). How could anyone confuse
> the number pronounced 'nine' with another digit???
>.............. I'll bet the use of 'niner' is a holdover from pre WW2
> HF radio communications.
Allegedly, "niner" was used to avoid confusion with the german nein
(no)(sp).
Regardless what AIM may or may not say, the only guy I hear nowdays
using niner is Gordon Liddy when he is trying to impress his non-flying
audience.
--
Pete Brown, ASEL/CFIG N4563C C-170B
Anchorage, Alaska N3864A SGS-1-23G
907-345-7529 (home) 907-564-0223 (fax) Frank Zaic Thermic 18
to reply delete "IHATESPAM"
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with
your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been,
there you long to return." -- Leonardo da Vinci.
Peter Gottlieb
<720en2$k7o$1...@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
>In article <3646a414...@news.supernews.com>,
LowTim...@mailcity.com (Low Time Pilot) wrote:
>>
>>I don't remember EVER saying or hearing 'niner' for 'nine'. Do
>>controllers really say 'niner' for 'nine'? All of the time? Do most
>>pilots say 'niner' for 'nine'? All of the time?
>>
I revert to the "official" mode when communications become difficult. It
helps
slow me down, which may be the main benefit.
kimgh
Peter D. Brown wrote:
> Allegedly, "niner" was used to avoid confusion with the german nein
> (no)(sp).
>
> Regardless what AIM may or may not say, the only guy I hear nowdays
> using niner is Gordon Liddy when he is trying to impress his non-flying
> audience.
Oh, come on! ATC says it here (SF Bay Area) all the time, and I was
taught to say "niner", and most pilots I hear say it, also. In fact, when
someone *DOESN'T* say it, it jars me, since I'm used to hearing it.
I've never hear "tree" for three or "fife" for five. But, "nine" can be
confused with "five", which is the reason (I was told) for saying "niner".
Kim Helliwell
P.S. I neither know nor care what G. Gordon Liddy says, or why he
says it.
Peter D. Brown
> > using niner is Gordon Liddy when he is trying to impress
> > his non-flying audience.
then Kim Helliwell wrote:
> Oh, come on! ATC says it here (SF Bay Area) all the time, and I was
> taught to say "niner", and most pilots I hear say it, also. In fact, > when someone *DOESN'T* say it, it jars me, since I'm used to hearing it.
Oh, come on yourself... those guys are just Cherokee drivers enroute to
their fly in golf courses trying to sound like pilots. They probably
say "Contact" too instead of "Clear prop" before turning the starter
key.
--
Pete Brown, ASEL/CFIG N4563C C-170B
8731 Sultana Dr. N3864A SGS-1-23G
Anchorage, Alaska 99516 Frank Zaic Thermic 18
907-345-7529 (home) 907-564-0223 (fax)
To reply, remove "IHATESPAM" from email address
Peter D. Brown
> > I (Pete Brown) hear nowdays
> > using niner is Gordon Liddy when he is trying to impress
> > his non-flying audience.
then Kim Helliwell wrote:
> Oh, come on! ATC says it here (SF Bay Area) all the time, and I was
> taught to say "niner", and most pilots I hear say it, also. In fact, > when someone *DOESN'T* say it, it jars me, since I'm used to hearing it.
Oh, come on yourself... those guys are just Cherokee drivers enroute to
their fly in golf courses trying to sound like pilots. They probably
say "Contact" too instead of "Clear prop" before turning the starter
key.
(OK, OK .....advance apologies to real pilots who fly Cherokees!
Peter D. Brown
> > I (Pete Brown) hear nowdays
> > using niner is Gordon Liddy when he is trying to impress
> > his non-flying audience.
then Kim Helliwell wrote:
> Oh, come on! ATC says it here (SF Bay Area) all the time, and I was
> taught to say "niner", and most pilots I hear say it, also. In fact,
> when someone *DOESN'T* say it, it jars me, since I'm used to hearing it.
Oh, come on yourself... those guys are just Cherokee drivers enroute to
their fly-in golf courses trying to sound like pilots. They probably
Low Time Pilot
It's been two decades since I've piloted a plane and I'm now pouring
over the AIM and FARs etc. trying to get up to speed once again. I
just read the phonetic pronunciations in the AIM and I must comment.
I don't remember EVER saying or hearing 'niner' for 'nine'. Do
controllers really say 'niner' for 'nine'? All of the time? Do most
pilots say 'niner' for 'nine'? All of the time?
To me, it seems utterly ridiculous to say 'niner' when radio contact
is loud and clear (ie. 99.99% of the time). How could anyone confuse
the number pronounced 'nine' with another digit??? Perhaps, just
perhaps, when using HF SSB and communicating half way around the world
in thick static and/or interference could such phonetic silliness be
appropriate. I'll bet the use of 'niner' is a holdover from pre WW2
HF radio communications.
Now, more phonetic silliness (IMO)... the AIM says the following are
the correct pronunciations:
Oscar is 'OSS-CAH'. What happened to the 'R'???
Quebec 'KEH-BECK) not 'KUI-BEK'???
Victor is 'VIC-TAH'. Again what happened to the 'R'???
Three is 'tree'. Give me a frigging break, TREE?!?!?!
Five is 'fife'. Excuse me but 'fife' is a musical instrument.
Now, how much you wanna bet that VERY FEW pilots follow these silly
pronunciations to the letter. And how may controllers say 'tree' for
'three' or 'fife' for 'five'???
I would wager that a controlled study would reveal that NONE of these
mispronunciations are necessary in today's aviation environment.
Thanks in advance for any comments, answers, attempted explanations,
rationalizations, etc.
Low Time Pilot
Flavius Silva
Allegedly Niner is used to prevent instinctive reactions from German speakers.
Three is TREE because TH is considered difficult for non-english speakers.
At Morristown there used to be a controller who used FIFE instead of Five.
Here is the only one I have ever heard use the official pronounciation.
John - N8086N
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qubanait
<pdb...@alaska.net> wrote:
>Low Time Pilot wrote:
>
>> To me, it seems utterly ridiculous to say 'niner' when radio contact
>> is loud and clear (ie. 99.99% of the time). How could anyone confuse
>> the number pronounced 'nine' with another digit???
>
>>.............. I'll bet the use of 'niner' is a holdover from pre WW2
>> HF radio communications.
>
>Allegedly, "niner" was used to avoid confusion with the german nein
>(no)(sp).
>
>Regardless what AIM may or may not say, the only guy I hear nowdays
>using niner is Gordon Liddy when he is trying to impress his non-flying
>audience.
here in the se I hear niner all the time; I think its usage is valid
when you consider what "5" (five) sounds like over a crummy radio
BuckWynd
pilots say 'niner' for 'nine'? All of the time? >>
I'm an airline pilot and military pilot, and I'd guess that only 50% of the
pilots I hear on the radio use "niner." This is a shame, because there
definitely are times when using the proper word has saved pilots (including me)
from misinterpreting an altitude as "FIVE thousand" or "flight level two FIVE
zero." Many more controllers use the proper terminology than pilots.
==================
<< Perhaps, just perhaps, when using HF SSB and communicating half way around
the world in thick static and/or interference could such phonetic silliness be
appropriate. >>
==================
That's one of the times it can be absolutely imperative! I often hear
controllers say "fife" instead of "five," and "tree" instead of "three" on HF.
(Especially on those days they're taking a "checkride" or otherwise being
evaluated.) HF is a horrible, antiquated way to communicate, but in a few
years, the airlines will have completely converted over to satellite-based,
non-voice, digital data-link communications, and there won't be any need to
listen to the crashing static anymore except as an emergency backup. :-)
==================
<< Oscar is 'OSS-CAH'. What happened to the 'R'??? Quebec 'KEH-BECK) not
'KUI-BEK'??? Victor is 'VIC-TAH'. Again what happened to the 'R'??? >>
==================
Since some words in English are harder to pronounce than others, some of them
have been standardized for the benefit of non-English speakers so that everyone
can pronounce and understand them. It amusing to listen to controllers in the
Far East who speak "controller English"as a second language, and not very well
at that. Some of them overannunciate the AIM-standard words to the point that
they are almost unrecognizable, thereby negating the intent of the AIM
pronunciations....
= = = = = = = = = = =
Buck Wyndham
Fighter Pilot, Airline Pilot
Member ICAS, WOA, CJAA, EAA
Address: Deep in the Heart of Texas
E-Mail: buck...@nospam.aol.com
(Nospam procedures in effect)
= = = = = = = = = = =
Roy Smith
Yes they do. No, not all the time. I often hear "contact tower, one one
nine point seven", but when it's an isolated "9", as in "contact ground,
point niner", I've never heard it just pronounced "nine". Pilots use it
too. My club has, for example, "Archer two five six two niner". Yeah, I
know, it really should be "two fife six two niner", but I can't bring
myself to say "fife". :-)
> To me, it seems utterly ridiculous to say 'niner' when radio contact
> is loud and clear (ie. 99.99% of the time).
Boy, I wish I had your radios!
> And how may controllers say 'tree' for 'three' or 'fife' for 'five'???
Not many. But, silly as it may sounds, I've *never* understood them wrong
when they do.
Jim Sokoloff
> Now, more phonetic silliness (IMO)... the AIM says the following are
> the correct pronunciations:
>
> Oscar is 'OSS-CAH'. What happened to the 'R'???
> Victor is 'VIC-TAH'. Again what happened to the 'R'???
Maybe the standard pronunciations were developed by a Bostonian? :-)
Everyone from Boston knows that those R's are as silent as the P in
phone...
---Jim
Mark Kolber
>
>here in the se I hear niner all the time; I think its usage is valid
>when you consider what "5" (five) sounds like over a crummy radio
Ditto for the Colorado area where I fly now and the Northeast where I
trained.
======================================
______|______ Mark Kolber
\(o)/ Denver, Colorado
o O o mko...@nospam.usa.net
======================================
Remove "nospam" for e-mail
Peregrine
>is loud and clear (ie. 99.99% of the time).
Don't you mean niner niner point niner niner % if the time? :-)
Dan Silbaugh
Low Time Pilot wrote:
> I don't remember EVER saying or hearing 'niner' for 'nine'. Do
> controllers really say 'niner' for 'nine'? All of the time? Do most
> pilots say 'niner' for 'nine'? All of the time?
Sure I do. EVERY time. It's all about discipline, and making sure I
always say "niner" is just one of the many ways to keep disciplines
(read: not complacent).
> Oscar is 'OSS-CAH'. What happened to the 'R'???
> Quebec 'KEH-BECK) not 'KUI-BEK'???
> Victor is 'VIC-TAH'. Again what happened to the 'R'???
> Three is 'tree'. Give me a frigging break, TREE?!?!?!
> Five is 'fife'. Excuse me but 'fife' is a musical instrument.
My five comes out as "fivfe" and my three is three, because that's how
I've always spoken it. But, I notice that when I'm doing my dorky (to
them) GA thing into a big airport, I start using "tree."
> Now, how much you wanna bet that VERY FEW pilots follow these silly
> pronunciations to the letter. And how may controllers say 'tree' for
> 'three' or 'fife' for 'five'???
"tree" and "fife" I can easily let slide. But when I hear a "nine," I
always comment about it to myself or my passenger(s). I certaintly don't
think much of a pilot who can't remember to say "niner," it's probably
the same guy who forgets to turn on an anticollision light, forgets to
shut off the mags when he's done, and who knows what else he may have
forgotten. I know it's a broad generalization, but that's what I think
when I hear a "nine." I'm sure there are many great pilots who say
"nine," and many poor pilots who say "niner," but when all I have to judge
the guy landing in front of me is by his radio technique, you can bet that
if he says "nine" I expect him to float and spend a few hours on the
runway.
Dan
TJH
Low Time Pilot wrote:
> It's been two decades since I've piloted a plane and I'm now pouring
> over the AIM and FARs etc. trying to get up to speed once again. I
> just read the phonetic pronunciations in the AIM and I must comment.
>
> I don't remember EVER saying or hearing 'niner' for 'nine'. Do
> controllers really say 'niner' for 'nine'? All of the time? Do most
> pilots say 'niner' for 'nine'? All of the time?
> <snipped>
> Now, more phonetic silliness (IMO)... the AIM says the following are
> the correct pronunciations:
>
> Oscar is 'OSS-CAH'. What happened to the 'R'???
They put it in WaRshington
> Quebec 'KEH-BECK) not 'KUI-BEK'???
> Victor is 'VIC-TAH'. Again what happened to the 'R'???
> Three is 'tree'. Give me a frigging break, TREE?!?!?!
> Five is 'fife'. Excuse me but 'fife' is a musical instrument.
>
> Now, how much you wanna bet that VERY FEW pilots follow these silly
> pronunciations to the letter. And how may controllers say 'tree' for
> 'three' or 'fife' for 'five'???
You are just wrong. Pilots(professional and amateur alike) use these
everyday, if you dont want to, fine. You want to be an amateur, fine.
You want to be a pro, and do what pros do, use them. Yes, they sound
silly, but yes, they are heard and understood.
TJ, B757 IP (high time pilot)
PHX.AZ
> Thanks in advance for any comments, answers, attempted explanations,
> rationalizations, etc.
>
> Low Time Pilot
HLAviation
>always say "niner" is just one of the many ways to keep disciplines
>(read: not complacent).
Good as it should be.
Now on a similar vane, When calling in 2 thousand five hundrred feet, how do
you say it? This is a quick survey.
kimgh
Come on yourself, yourself! Take another look at what I wrote.
*ATC*, as in SJC, RHV, and other towers, and Bay Approach/
Departure, and Oakland Center, says "niner" more often than not.
Yeah, maybe they're Cherokee drivers in their spare time, but
when they are ATC controllers, they are, presumably, professionals.
And they say "niner". And a lot of them say "Kay-Beck" for Quebec,
as well!
And I say "niner," also, and I'm only sometimes a Cherokee driver. Some
of the time I'm in a Cessna instead :-)
You really need to get out more, perhaps! :-)
Kim Helliwell
P.S. Got your apology for the multiple postings, and no offense
taken, or meant here, either! Check the smileys! ;-)
Peter D. Brown wrote:
> Kim Helliwell wrote:
>
> > Oh, come on! ATC says it here (SF Bay Area) all the time, and I was
> > taught to say "niner", and most pilots I hear say it, also. In fact, > when someone *DOESN'T* say it, it jars me, since I'm used to hearing it.
>
> Oh, come on yourself... those guys are just Cherokee drivers enroute to
> their fly in golf courses trying to sound like pilots. They probably
Peregrine
HLAviation wrote in message
<19981107154313...@ng-fq1.aol.com>...
Is this a trick question? "Altitude, two thousand five hundred"
Gordon Dewis
Actually, that would be niner niner decimal niner niner percent .....
;-)
--G
--
Gordon Dewis | Tired of using "military intelligence" as an example
BA Hons Geography | of an oxymoron? Try "ethical bulk emailer" instead.
Low Time Pilot
> Sure I do [say niner]. EVERY time. It's all about discipline, and making sure I
>always say "niner" is just one of the many ways to keep disciplines
>(read: not complacent).
> My five comes out as "fivfe" and my three is three, because that's how
>I've always spoken it. But, I notice that when I'm doing my dorky (to
>them) GA thing into a big airport, I start using "tree."
So let me understand this. You do say 'niner' to "keep disciplines",
yet you opt not to use the mispronunciations 'fife' or 'tree' most of
the time. Hum... doesn't sound very disciplined to me.
> "tree" and "fife" I can easily let slide. But when I hear a "nine," I
>always comment about it to myself or my passenger(s). I certaintly don't
>think much of a pilot who can't remember to say "niner," it's probably
>the same guy who forgets to turn on an anticollision light, forgets to
>shut off the mags when he's done, and who knows what else he may have
>forgotten. I know it's a broad generalization, but that's what I think
>when I hear a "nine." I'm sure there are many great pilots who say
>"nine," and many poor pilots who say "niner," but when all I have to judge
>the guy landing in front of me is by his radio technique, you can bet that
>if he says "nine" I expect him to float and spend a few hours on the
>runway.
I see you feel quite strongly that saying 'niner' is important. What
non-anecdatal evidence can you cite that demonstrates this importance?
Similarly, I see you feel that saying 'tree' for 'three' or 'fife' for
'five' is NOT very important. What non-anecdotal evidence can you
cite demonstrating this unimportance?
Finally, I must say I find your low impression of pilots who say
'nine' instead of 'niner' quite amusing. I suspect such impressions
have little basis in fact.
Low Time Pilot
Low Time Pilot
>You are just wrong. Pilots(professional and amateur alike) use
> these [niner, tree, fife] everyday, if you dont want to, fine. You
>want to be an amateur, fine. You want to be a pro, and do what
>pros do, use them. Yes, they sound silly, but yes, they are heard
>and understood.
BULLFEATHERS!!!! My hearing is just fine bud and from what I hear,
pilots and controllers DON'T say 'tree' or 'fife' all the time or even
most of the time. Clearly, it is YOU who is 'just plane wrong'.
If you want to be a frigging drone, then go ahead and question
nothing. I, on the other hand, will continue to question anything and
everything I find suspect -- and I find this 'niner' thing quite
suspect.
BTW, I see you think yourself quite the "pro'' -- I'll bet you even
say 'varable' for 'variable'. :)
Low Time Pilot
Low Time Pilot
r...@popmail.med.nyu.edu (Roy Smith) wrote:
>Yes they do. No, not all the time. I often hear "contact tower, one one
>nine point seven", but when it's an isolated "9", as in "contact ground,
>point niner", I've never heard it just pronounced [point] "nine".
So the question begs, what is it about having 'nine' bracketed by
other digits that makes many controllers and pilots apparently feel
they can say 'nine' instead of 'niner' in such cases? I see nothing
in the AIM that says the pronunciation should be 'niner' unless the
digit is bracketed by other digits where it then reverts to 'nine'.
>Pilots use it
>too. My club has, for example, "Archer two five six two niner". Yeah, I
>know, it really should be "two fife six two niner", but I can't bring
>myself to say "fife". :-)
You say 'niner' but not 'fife'? So now the question begs, what
non-anecdotal evidence can you cite showing the importance of using
'niner' over the importance of using 'fife' or 'tree'?
Thanks,
Low Time Pilot
Mark Klebanoff
>
> Good as it should be.
> Now on a similar vane, When calling in 2 thousand five hundrred feet, how do
> you say it? This is a quick survey.
"Two thousand five hundred." But I've heard everyone from 152s to
747s come in with "two-point-five"
Victoria Deaton
Actually, the first time I heard it as such was from my father, a
lifer in the army. He taught me that stuff when I was a kid. So when
I saw it in the AIM, no big deal. I use it myself when things seem to
be hitting the fan and clarity is at a premium, i.e., crappy radios,
lots of radio traffic, or a sense of impending doom (the bug on the
windshield is getting bigger).
Here in NC, the official pronounciation tends to be
one = wun
two = too
three = tharee
four = fo or foah
five = fiyuv
six = siyux
seven = sebben
eight = aiyut
nine = nahn
ten = teeyun
As for the consonants going AWOL in "Oss-cah", someone once said that
consonants are constant and are constantly moving to fill voids...
therefore in Boston, the lost "R's" (pahk your cah" ) migrate down to
Texas where they have "erl rigs" and pay taxes because of
"wershington".
=8-)
victoria
pp-asel
NC Native
and, yes, I include the gun rack in my W&B
Mark Mallory
: As for the consonants going AWOL in "Oss-cah", someone once said that
: consonants are constant and are constantly moving to fill voids...
: therefore in Boston, the lost "R's" (pahk your cah" ) migrate down to
: Texas where they have "erl rigs" and pay taxes because of
: "wershington".
And in Utah, they praise the Lard and keep the lord in the refrigerator. :)
HLAviation
and these somewhat strange phonetic pronunciations take into account several
accents trying to make communications clear. As long as you are clear to the
controller your enounciation is not all that critical, but when you go flying
into other countries where the controllers english isn't that great, it may be
wise to fall back on the published communications proceedures.
BTW, when the radios are weak or the plane is real loud or open cockpit, I
generally revert to the published op's, otherwise I communicate normally. The
main point is to be understood by whomever it is you need to communicate with.
>If you want to be a frigging drone, then go ahead and question
>nothing. I, on the other hand, will continue to question anything and
>everything I find suspect -- and I find this 'niner' thing quite
>suspect.
Attitude really isn't called for. As to niner being suspect, suspect of what?
It is merely a communications standard, no need for suspicion. If your looking
for conspiracies go to alt.aviation.disaster, you'll find someone there who
will give you the answers you are trolling for.
HLAviation
>do
>>you say it? This is a quick survey.
>
>
>
No trick, just want to see who says two thousand five hundred and who says two
point five. I personally say two point five because where I learned to fly the
radio was always busy so I made my communications as short as possible and 2.5
was accepted by the controllers so my habit developed as such. I just wanted
to find out which way is used more.
TJH
> BULLFEATHERS!!!! My hearing is just fine bud and from what I hear,
> pilots and controllers DON'T say 'tree' or 'fife' all the time or even
> most of the time. Clearly, it is YOU who is 'just plane wrong'.
They DO say it(get out more BUD) when there is a chance to be misheard.
I may be wrong, then again, I may not be, I just know, that I'm NOT a Low
Time Pilot. I've been out enough to hear this, from coast to coast.
You're just lazy, and don't want to play the game according to it's
rules. The pronunciations were made up for a reason, if you don't want to
use 'em, fine, like I said before, pro's do. I didn't say I'm a pro, my
11,000+ hours, 8 type ratings(B757/B767) do.
> If you want to be a frigging drone, then go ahead and question
> nothing. I, on the other hand, will continue to question anything and
> everything I find suspect -- and I find this 'niner' thing quite
> suspect.
I think you'd better stay on the ground and do some more studying, suspect
of what? remember, it's not paranoia if they really ARE out to get you...
> BTW, I see you think yourself quite the "pro'' -- I'll bet you even
> say 'varable' for 'variable'. :)
Nope, never had to say VARABLE, just wouldn't be prudent at this
juncture....
adios, TJ
> Low Time Pilot
Jack
> It's been two decades since I've piloted
> a plane and I'm...trying to get up to speed
> once again.
> I don't remember EVER saying or hearing 'niner'
> for 'nine'.
You've gotta ask yourself, "Was I really ever up to speed the first
time?", if you never used "niner", "tree", "fife", or "keh-beck".
This is the way it's done and it does make a difference.
> To me, it seems utterly ridiculous to say 'niner'....
If you'd spent that 20 years or more flying everyday, you too might need
all the help you could get in distinguishng similar sounding syllables
over the engine, airstream, cockpit ventilation, systems hum, and the
variations in microphone technique, as your body ages. Don't look to the
FAA for literary imagination, but they do put out a useful guide to
pronounciation, even though many amateur and a few lazy pros don't
always follow it. It usually takes former fighter pilots and sometimes
other ex-military types a while to get over the habit of saying
"tally-ho" to confirm traffic in sight, but if we can learn to change,
so can you.
> I would wager that a controlled study would
> reveal that NONE of these mispronunciations
> are necessary in today's aviation environment.
Glad to take that bet, but a controlled study? Don't hold your breath.
We're still waiting for the FAA to find the plug for their computer. I
guess they are not actually MIS-pronounciations, since you have them
right in front of you in a very official form.
Jack
--
:--------------------------------------:
: http://home.earthlink.net/~baron58 :
:======================================:
: http://www.nAsgrp.com :
:--------------------------------------:
Jim Weir
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:
->>To me, it seems utterly ridiculous to say 'niner' when radio contact
->>is loud and clear (ie. 99.99% of the time).
->
->Don't you mean niner niner point niner niner % if the time? :-)
->
NEGATIVE, NEGATIVE, it is niner-niner DECIMAL niner-niner percent.
Sheesh, when youse guyze gonna learn?
Jim {;-)
Jim Weir (A&P, CFI, and other good alphabet soup)
VP Engineering, RST
Web address: www.rst-engr.com
Richard Hyde
: Low Time Pilot wrote:
: > BULLFEATHERS!!!! My hearing is just fine bud and from what I hear,
: > pilots and controllers DON'T say 'tree' or 'fife' all the time or even
: > most of the time. Clearly, it is YOU who is 'just plane wrong'.
: They DO say it(get out more BUD) when there is a chance to be misheard.
So I turned on my scanner while meandering through usenet, listening to
Bay Approach near San Francisco. No tree, no fife, a few niners but
less than 5%. We have a fair number of arrivals captained by pilots
with heavy accents. No tree, no fife, few niners.
That is exactly what I remembered from listening to ATC while flying,
but I didn't want to give anyone a chance to say "go listen more
carefully" :-)
So perhaps it's a regional thing, but I doubt it, since we have arrivals
from all regions.
Perhaps if I were in an emergency, with crufty, fuzzy radios, In a
country not in North America, I might use fife or tree in desperation.
Those pronunciations certainly are not in common useage around here.
Where did y'all "fife" supporters say you heard this?
Cheers,
Rick
--
Include "wombat" in Subject: line of mail sent to me [to override spamgard(tm)]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Richard Hyde | R...@netcom.com | This space intentionally left blank |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan Silbaugh
Low Time Pilot wrote:
> Dan Silbaugh <black-...@ccvp.com> wrote:
>
> >So let me understand this. You do say 'niner' to "keep disciplines",
> yet you opt not to use the mispronunciations 'fife' or 'tree' most of
> the time. Hum... doesn't sound very disciplined to me.
Yeah. I gotta work on that (so if anyone out there in Indiana hears someone saying
"fife" and "tree," it's me)
> Finally, I must say I find your low impression of pilots who say
> 'nine' instead of 'niner' quite amusing. I suspect such impressions
> have little basis in fact.
Well, I really don't know if it has any basis in fact or not. And quite frankly, I
don't care. If all I have to judge a pilot's skill is his radio technique, I'm going to
notice how good his technique is. On a similar note, you ever been in a tower listening
to their comments on different pilots? It's almost completely based upon radio
procedures. I can't tell you how many times when a pilot calls up using "nine" and
putting long pauses or otherwise lengthening his broadcast that eh controllers say
"you've got a student pilot coming to 23, you'd better leave him a big space for
departure." It seems I'm not the only one who does this after all...
Dan
Victoria Deaton
> Where did y'all "fife" supporters say you heard this?
RDU area. It varies, but I've heard it. IMHO it just sounds like a
distinct "five".
There's a lot of "fi-thousand"...I hear plenty of that, too. (Sorta like
"cessna one-fitty-two".)
And I used to have an airplane with 999 in the N number which made for a
rather long, goofy "niner niner niner" call. Felt like I was about to
say "nanoo-nanoo" whenever I was talking to ATC.
victoria
RossPilot
>rather long, goofy "niner niner niner" call. Felt like I was about to
>say "nanoo-nanoo" whenever I was talking to ATC.
>
>
My N # is 466 Sierra Romeo . . . ATC invariably calls me 466 Zero Romeo.
Sometimes they ask, sometimes they don't. If it's busy, I just say it with an
exaggerated articulation when I speak to them, and hope they pick it up
correctly. Once I said " it's sierra as in sugar".
Low Time Pilot
Dan Silbaugh <black-...@ccvp.com> wrote:
> Well, I really don't know if it has any basis in fact or not. And quite frankly, I
>don't care. If all I have to judge a pilot's skill is his radio technique, I'm going to
>notice how good his technique is.
Clearly, based on the comments in this thread, there is wide variation
in both pilot's and controller's adherence to the 'official'
pronunciations. Also, quite clearly, there are a host of factors in
radio technique far more important than whether a pilot says 'tree'
for 'three'. If you wish to make presumptions about a pilot's or
controller's skill based solely on his radio technique, then I suggest
you would do well to pay attention to those other factors instead of
how he pronounces the words 'three', 'five' or 'nine'.
>On a similar note, you ever been in a tower listening
>to their comments on different pilots? It's almost completely based upon radio
>procedures. I can't tell you how many times when a pilot calls up using "nine" and
>putting long pauses or otherwise lengthening his broadcast that eh controllers say
>"you've got a student pilot coming to 23, you'd better leave him a big space for
>departure." It seems I'm not the only one who does this after all...
You're example conveniently combines the student pilot's use of 'nine'
with other undisputed poor radio techniques -- hardly a convincing
argument.
Low Time Pilot
Low Time Pilot
TJH <N2...@juno.com> wrote:
>They DO say it(get out more BUD) when there is a chance to be misheard.
So now you qualify your earlier statement with, "when there is a
chance to be misheard". Big difference between that and your earlier
blanket assertion. Glad to see you are coming around. :)
>I may be wrong, then again, I may not be, I just know, that I'm NOT a Low
>Time Pilot. I've been out enough to hear this, from coast to coast.
>You're just lazy, and don't want to play the game according to it's
>rules. The pronunciations were made up for a reason, if you don't want to
>use 'em, fine, like I said before, pro's do. I didn't say I'm a pro, my
>11,000+ hours, 8 type ratings(B757/B767) do.
I see you are quite full of yourself. I remain unimpressed by those
who claim some greater understanding based solely on hours logged.
>Suspect of what?
Suspect of being necessary for effective communication, of course.
Just a hunch here... but how many of your 11,000+ hours were spent at
12,000+ feet with no oxygen? :)
Low Time Pilot
Low Time Pilot
hlavi...@aol.com (HLAviation) wrote:
>As to niner being suspect, suspect of what?
Suspect of being necessary for effective communication, of course.
>It is merely a communications standard, no need for suspicion. If your looking
>for conspiracies go to alt.aviation.disaster,
Who said anything of conspiracies? Perhaps you are attempting
sarcasm. If so, I remain unimpressed.
>Attitude really isn't called for.
Attitude? Moi? Nah.
>you'll find someone there who
>will give you the answers you are trolling for.
Talk about attitude, it seems you are not above some yourself.
Low Time Pilot
Low Time Pilot
Jack <bar...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>You've gotta ask yourself, "Was I really ever up to speed the first
>time?", if you never used "niner", "tree", "fife", or "keh-beck".
>This is the way it's done and it does make a difference.
The responses in this thread indicate that the use of 'official'
pronunciations by both controllers and pilots isn't as universal as
you suggest. This is what I suspected from the start. I'm sure there
are a host of highly qualified and proficient pilots who last said
'tree' for 'three' sometime around the age of 2. :)
Low Time Pilot
Aaron Kahn
to be pronounced "colloquially"
ex. flight 209 = two oh nine NOT two zero niner.
I, too was taught niner as a student pilot, but now I only use it when the
ice builds up on the wings and the boots are not working and I am
panicking and therefore reverting to my original training.
My personal preference is to say nine. But strangely I do like to say one
zero thousand. It impresses controllers. :) But then again so does
remembering the ATIS code.
Aaron
A "Freight" Guy.
Ron Natalie
>
> Low Time Pilot wrote:
>
> > the number pronounced 'nine' with another digit???
>
> >.............. I'll bet the use of 'niner' is a holdover from pre WW2
> > HF radio communications.
>
> Allegedly, "niner" was used to avoid confusion with the german nein
> (no)(sp).
>
>
Bullshit. The Signal Corps developed a rather distinct
pronunciation of things to avoid confusion with other numbers.
Why would we give a damn about the Germans (they weren't
allies at the time).
WUN TOO TREE FOWER FIFE SIX SEVEN ATE NINER ZEE-RO
Ron Natalie
>
>
> here in the se I hear niner all the time; I think its usage is valid
> when you consider what "5" (five) sounds like over a crummy radio
Which always annoys the hell out of me when some space
cadet starts saying FIVER.
Peregrine
>
>TJH <N2...@juno.com> wrote:
>
>> <snip> I didn't say I'm a pro, my
>>11,000+ hours, 8 type ratings(B757/B767) do.
>
>I see you are quite full of yourself. I remain unimpressed by those
>who claim some greater understanding based solely on hours logged.
It's obvious this thread is going nowhere. If one isn't convinced of
expertise by "11,000+ hours, 8 type ratings(B757/B767) " what possible
yardstick can be applied? I'd personally listen to everything that a pilot
with that much experience said as being slightly short of gospel.
Richard Hyde
: >
My memory fails me, but in one of the recent aviation rags, one of the
"high time 747 heavy captain/authors" debunked the hours=expertise
theory, at least as far as it relates to piloting commercial airliners.
By the time you subtract out all of the enroute time handled by the
autopilot, all the time spent sleeping on international routes, all
of the landings handled by the FO and/or autoland, the actual hands-on
stick time reduces to something more comprehensible to us mere mortals
than 11,000 hours. In short, a top-of-the-roster 747 pilot gets
far less flying in per hour logged than a Twin Otter pilot hopping
islands in Fiji.
I don't intend to denigrate the skills of our airline crews. I gladly
place my life in their hands every time I buy a ticket. They are
highly trained individuals who perform flight for a living.
Still, we all must not forget that it is important for all of us
aviators, low timers included, that we have to make our own observations
and draw our own conclusions about what we are told.
Many pilots have come to grief by blindly following the instructions
of high-time controllers by not questioning those instructions that
might be inappropriate to their aircraft or situation.
TJH started out his responses by stating that "fife" and "tree"
were used "all the time" by professionals. In a later, more
agressive post, he quietly ammended that that useage to only
those times when communications might be difficult.
"low timer" picked up on this and, correctly, called him on it.
I just spent some recent time listening SFO ground, SFO tower,
and Bay Approach on a scanner (cheaper than flying for this
experiment) and heard no "fifes" or "trees" and only a scattering
of "niners".
From my direct experience, I would draw the opposite conclusion
from some who have posted in their thread. If I heard a pilot
using fife, tree, and niner for *every* occurance of 5,3, and 9,
I'd conclude that they had just discovered the AIM and the
novelty had not yet worn off.
Peter D. Brown
Pete said:
> > Allegedly, "niner" was used to avoid confusion with the german nein
> > (no)(sp).
> >
> >
Ron Natalie responded:
> Bullshit. The Signal Corps developed a rather distinct
> pronunciation of things to avoid confusion with other numbers.
> Why would we give a damn about the Germans (they weren't
> allies at the time).
M'aidez, M'aidez (that's mayday, mayday for you Cherokee drivers)..
I am going down in flames................
In fact there were international conventions, formal and otherwise,
about this stuff to avoid misunderstandings. Whether this in fact
applies to "niner", I can't say with authority. Nor can I speculate
whether the French have ever in fact truly been our allies... that
is beyond the scope of this discussion.
--
Pete Brown, ASEL/CFIG N4563C C-170B
Anchorage, Alaska N3864A SGS-1-23G
907-345-7529 (home) 907-564-0223 (fax) Frank Zaic Thermic 18
to reply delete "IHATESPAM"
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with
your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been,
there you long to return." -- Leonardo da Vinci.
Julian Scarfe
>
> My company actually writes in our training manual that our call signs were
> to be pronounced "colloquially"
>
> ex. flight 209 = two oh nine NOT two zero niner.
Interesting. In the UK (and I suspect most of aviation-English-speaking
Europe) we tend to be lax on nine vs niner and five vs fife, but you never,
ever hear an "oh". It's always zero.
On the nine/five distinction, I've certainly wished that controllers would use
niner:
"G-MA established"
"G-MA contact Stansted Director one two six decimal five five"
[flip]
"Stansted G-BKMA localizer established"
"G-BKMA this is Booker Tower"
blush
[flip]
"Stansted Approach G-BKMA, the director frequency again please"
"Wun Two Six Niner Fife"
[twiddle, flip]
"Stansted Director, G-BKMA is, aargh, going around..."
:-)
--
Julian Scarfe
HLAviation
>expertise by "11,000+ hours, 8 type ratings(B757/B767) " what possible
>yardstick can be applied? I'd personally listen to everything that a pilot
>with that much experience said as being slightly short of gospel.
>
>
While I won't comment on This pilots qualifications as I have no knowledge of
him/her personally and may have the qualifications he speaks of, but just
because some one on the internet types something on the screen, doesn't mean I
have to believe it. This is a forum that can easily mask the poser, and just
as there are posers at the airport, there are posers everywhere in life and
especially on the internet where posing is oh so easy. You can usually figure
them out by the content of thier post. Are they regurgitating rules and things
that are written, or are they giving you more situational information that
makes sense. Trick is you need the experience to know if thier telling the
truth or if thier just BSing thier way through.
As for me theres nothing posted on the internet that I would consider any
where even reflecting gospel.
HLAviation
>ice builds up on the wings and the boots are not working and I am
>panicking and therefore reverting to my original training.
>panicking
??!
HLAviation
>cadet starts saying FIVER.
"Yeah approach this is niner fiver niner you there good buudy come back"
Roy Smith
> Which always annoys the hell out of me when some space
> cadet starts saying FIVER.
Must be a rabbit lover :-)
--
Roy Smith <r...@popmail.med.nyu.edu>
New York University School of Medicine
HLAviation
>>will give you the answers you are trolling for.
>
>Talk about attitude, it seems you are not above some yourself.
>
>Low Time Pilot
>
>
Keeed, let me tell you about attitude.=;) If you think I'm bad you don't even
wanna mess with mah horse much less mah wife.
But really the standard is there for when the going is bad and comms are poor,
everyone is working on the same page. I used to have to call in twice daily
position reports from all over the world to our base on the single sideband and
also recieve instructions and diversions and modified ETA's on a SSB radio.
Most of the time you could just have a normal conversation, but some times you
really needed to work at it saying things over and over again. Those are the
situations where it really pays that everyone is reading from the same script.
The signal corps spent quite a bit of thought coming up with the phonetic
alphabet and numerals because they need maximum understandability in any
conditions. The phonetics are a standard not an edict. If you are being
understood speak as you please, but if you are requested "Say Again", courtesy
if not proffesionality should lead you to use the phoeneticaly propper
pronunciation.
John J. Miller
<snip>
>"G-MA established"
>"G-MA contact Stansted Director one two six decimal five five"
>[flip]
>"Stansted G-BKMA localizer established"
>"G-BKMA this is Booker Tower"
>blush
But is this plane identified using Gee-Bee-Kay-eM-Ay OR Golf,
Bravo,Kilo,Mike,Alpha ??? And is the G/Golf normally dropped in the UK as is
prefix N/November when flying in the USA? G-FPFP would be quite a mouthful
with the latter.
Just curious,
John J. Miller
jo...@mcdata.com
Richard Hyde
: But really the standard is there for when the going is bad and comms are poor,
: everyone is working on the same page.
<excellent post snipped>
HL,
Good description of why and when we use special pronunciations.
snar...@my-dejanews.com
r...@netcom.com (Richard Hyde) wrote:
> I just spent some recent time listening SFO ground, SFO tower,
> and Bay Approach on a scanner (cheaper than flying for this
> experiment) and heard no "fifes" or "trees" and only a scattering
> of "niners".
>
I imagine in the SF Bay area, there may be pilots averse to using "Niner" if
they were "Raider" fans ... Oh well. :-)
But seriously, I tend to fly an Archer which has 9 and a 5 in its tail number,
so I tend to get a good amount of practice saying "niner" even though I have
never consciously used "tree" or "fife". I don't think it is a big deal using
nine/niner and not something to lose one's hair over; there are a lot more
things in comm with ATC that bug me (like 3.5 instead of saying three thousand
five hundred for altitudes).
Sriram
http://members.home.net/snarayan/aviation.html
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Peregrine
HLAviation wrote in message <19981109135259...@ng128.aol.com>...
> As for me theres nothing posted on the internet that I would consider
any
>where even reflecting gospel.
I agree - just a little hyperbole.
TJH
radio? A bunch. Think I've heard those more than 'tree or fife' times? " I
tink so. (*tink* being intentional) Like I said before, you can do what you
want. Use them or not, I dont care.
Low Time Pilot wrote:
> TJH <N2...@juno.com> wrote:
>
> >They DO say it(get out more BUD) when there is a chance to be misheard.
>
> So now you qualify your earlier statement with, "when there is a
> chance to be misheard". Big difference between that and your earlier
> blanket assertion. Glad to see you are coming around. :)
Did I EVER say that tree and fife were ALWAYS said? I think not. You asked
were they used? I replied yes. Pros use them. Did I say ALL THE TIME? I
think not.
Seems to me, if the VAST majority of controllers at Washington National Airport
use them, tree and fife included, then there must be some need/reason....
whatda you think? I dont think I've heard the local(tower) controller at DCA
not say "Contact Ground point niner..." And I've been there a bunch.
> >I may be wrong, then again, I may not be, I just know, that I'm NOT a Low
> >Time Pilot. I've been out enough to hear this, from coast to coast.
> >You're just lazy, and don't want to play the game according to it's
> >rules. The pronunciations were made up for a reason, if you don't want to
> >use 'em, fine, like I said before, pro's do. I didn't say I'm a pro, my
> >11,000+ hours, 8 type ratings(B757/B767) do.
Nope, not full of myself, I've just been off the farm long enough to know what'
what, have you?
> I see you are quite full of yourself. I remain unimpressed by those
> who claim some greater understanding based solely on hours logged.
Hours logged, ratings acquired, airlines flown for, pilots trained, etc, etc.
> >Suspect of what?
>
> Suspect of being necessary for effective communication, of course.
Sorry, what was that word you used? Um... effective.... What would be the
point of using tree, fife, niner etc?
> Just a hunch here... but how many of your 11,000+ hours were spent at
> 12,000+ feet with no oxygen? :)
uh, none, if you really wanna know. How long have you been stuck on the farm
and not got out to see/hear the rest of the world?
Not a low time pilot
TJ
Moonpie21
"t-ree" with the "t" sounding like a "t?"
Mark
Wojo
issuing air traffic instructions.
NINE sounds like FIVE when issued in there standard format. I have had
readback errors on those two numbers when NINER is not stated.
Clarity is essential in the air traffic environment. Whether it be phonetic
silliness or not, it is essential to controllers. Altitude busts because of
hearback/readback errors happen quite frequently. Especially in a busy
terminal where controllers are firing off transmissions at a moderate clip.
Stay Alert, Be Sharp, We'll look out for ya
Joe
CVG ATCT
Low Time Pilot wrote in message >I don't remember EVER saying or hearing
'niner' for 'nine'. Do
>controllers really say 'niner' for 'nine'? All of the time? Do most
>pilots say 'niner' for 'nine'? All of the time?
>
sha...@nospam.com
Onno Bulk <CondorA...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>I see that you have the same notion about spelling (consistant errors in
>virtually all your e-mails). ^
Of all possible flames on Usenet, spelling flames are the most odious.
But when you _do_ decide to flame someone's spelling, it is wise to make
sure your own is perfect!
-s
Shamim Mohamed
spm (at) drones. com
Roger Halstead
N833R World's oldest Debonair? S# CD-2
http://members.tm.net/rdhalste
Low Time Pilot wrote in message <364e7ce6...@news.supernews.com>...
>
>Jack <bar...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>You've gotta ask yourself, "Was I really ever up to speed the first
>>time?", if you never used "niner", "tree", "fife", or "keh-beck".
>>This is the way it's done and it does make a difference.
The only one I've not heard is the "keh-beck". It seems most of the places
I've flown into the past few years still use "Kilo" as it is single silable.
As "I recall" the change to the ICAO phonetic alphabet was less than ten
years ago.
Particularly at high density areas where I'd have expected the ICAO
standards. I may have just flown through the DTW and ORD areas at a time
when the guy on approach, or Minneapolis, cleveland, indianapolis center
were using "Kilo" and every one else uses "Keh-beck", but I've yet to hear
that one except in other services when passing traffic. Besides, even in
traffic handling, to me when they say Keh-beck" it sounds more like Quebeck
and I hear/copy a "Q".
Roger
>
>Low Time Pilot
>
>
Onno Bulk
<snip>
> The phonetics are a standard not an edict. If you are being understood
> speak as you please,..... <snip>
HLAviation,
I see that you have the same notion about spelling (consistant errors in
virtually all your e-mails). Then again, you might not know how to
spell. If the latter is the case, then get a dictionary and look up the
--CAPITALIZED-- words in your text below, and try again. (For someone
who is heard so loudly on this medium, one could expect you to have at
least some idea.....)
Good luck,
Onno Bulk
HLAviation wrote:
>
> >>you'll find someone there who
> >>will give you the answers you are trolling for.
> >
> >Talk about attitude, it seems you are not above some yourself.
> >
> >Low Time Pilot
> >
> >
>
> Keeed, let me tell you about attitude.=;) If you think I'm bad you
> don't even wanna mess with mah horse much less mah wife.
>
> But really the standard is there for when the going is bad and comms
> are poor, everyone is working on the same page. I used to have to
> call in twice daily position reports from all over the world to our
> base on the single sideband and also --RECIEVE-- instructions and
> diversions and modified ETA's on a SSB radio. Most of the time you
> could just have a normal conversation, but some times you really
> needed to work at it saying things over and over again. Those are the
> situations where it really pays that everyone is reading from the same
> script. The signal corps spent quite a bit of thought coming up with
> the phonetic alphabet and numerals because they need maximum
> understandability in any conditions. The phonetics are a standard not
> an edict. If you are being understood speak as you please, but if you
> are requested "Say Again", courtesy if not --PROFFESIONALITY-- should
> lead you to use the --PHOENETICALY-- --PROPPER-- pronunciation.
Another e-mail from HLAviation:
HLAviation wrote:
> While I won't comment on This --PILOTS-- qualifications as I have no
> knowledge of just because --SOME ONE-- on the internet types something
> on the screen, doesn't mean I have to believe it. This is a forum
> that can easily mask the poser, and just as there are posers at the
> airport, there are posers everywhere in life and especially on the
> internet where posing is oh so easy. You can usually figure them out
> by the content of --THIER-- post. Are they regurgitating rules and
> things that are written, or are they giving you more situational
> information that makes sense. Trick is you need the experience to
> know if --THIER-- telling the truth or if thier just BSing --THIER--
> way through.
>
> As for me --THERES-- nothing posted on the internet that I would
> consider --ANY WHERE-- even reflecting gospel.
HLAviation
>HLAviation,
>
>I see that you have the same notion about spelling (consistant errors in
>virtually all your e-mails). Then again, you might not know how to
>spell.
Yeah I can spell ok but I think faster than I type so it all gets screwed up,
plus this is a 4 year old laptop keyboard whose action is a bit sticky.
Now is that all you wanted? To correct my spelling? What happened, your
students drop you on your price increase? Too much time on your hands? You
gotta have better things to do. That was a pretty decent post anyway and I
doubt that my slight mispellings detracted from anyones understanding of what I
was trying to put across.
As to your correction:
>> know if --THIER-- telling the
It should have been they're not thier, BTW the misspellings in this post were
intentional.
Now was there something in the content of my posts here that you dispute?
Or are you a bitter little troll still smoldering because I don't think you'de
be worth $10 hr more as an instructor?>From: Onno Bulk
<CondorA...@worldnet.att.net>
>Date: Mon, Nov 9, 1998 22:03 EST
>Message-id: <364854...@worldnet.att.net>
Onno Bulk
it's OK.
Onno Bulk
Julian Scarfe
> But is this plane identified using Gee-Bee-Kay-eM-Ay OR Golf,
> Bravo,Kilo,Mike,Alpha ???
The latter
> And is the G/Golf normally dropped in the UK as is
> prefix N/November when flying in the USA? G-FPFP would be quite a mouthful
> with the latter.
We are supposed to drop the 2nd and 3rd bits, but not the Golf, so G-BKMA
becomes G-MA after first call if there's no ambiguity. Casually we do
occasionally drop the Golf as well and become MA, but given many speakers
propensity to key the mike slightly late and swallow the first word, keeping
the Golf in is no bad thing.
--
Julian Scarfe
John Seghers
Low Time Pilot wrote in message <364dd991...@news.supernews.com>...
>Dan Silbaugh <black-...@ccvp.com> wrote:
>
>> Sure I do [say niner]. EVERY time. It's all about discipline, and
making sure I
>>always say "niner" is just one of the many ways to keep disciplines
>>(read: not complacent).
>
>> My five comes out as "fivfe" and my three is three, because that's how
>>I've always spoken it. But, I notice that when I'm doing my dorky (to
>>them) GA thing into a big airport, I start using "tree."
>
>So let me understand this. You do say 'niner' to "keep disciplines",
>yet you opt not to use the mispronunciations 'fife' or 'tree' most of
>the time. Hum... doesn't sound very disciplined to me.
>
I'm a student pilot rapidly closing in on that check-ride (as rapidly as the
weather
in the northwest will allow :().
My study materials are the Jeppesen "Guided Flight Discovery" books. In the
section on radio procedures, it states (don't have the book in front of me
here,
so this is not an exact quote) that the numbers are all pronounced as normal
except
for nine, pronounced as niner in order to not have it confused with the
German nein.
I suspect that the mispronounciations for three and five (which I've only
seen here
as I haven't read that part of the AIM) may be for use in noisy comm
sitiuations and
the quality of radio communications in general (and the move to aviation
headsets
instead of cabin speakers and hand-held mikes) may have made those less
important.
- John
Low Time Pilot
>But really the standard is there for when the going is bad and comms are poor,
>everyone is working on the same page. I used to have to call in twice daily
>position reports from all over the world to our base on the single sideband and
>also recieve instructions and diversions and modified ETA's on a SSB radio.
>Most of the time you could just have a normal conversation, but some times you
>really needed to work at it saying things over and over again. Those are the
>situations where it really pays that everyone is reading from the same script.
>The signal corps spent quite a bit of thought coming up with the phonetic
>alphabet and numerals because they need maximum understandability in any
>conditions. The phonetics are a standard not an edict. If you are being
>understood speak as you please, but if you are requested "Say Again", courtesy
>if not proffesionality should lead you to use the phoeneticaly propper
>pronunciation.
I agree with most of what you say except your characterization of the
official pronunciations as 'phonetically proper'. There is nothing
phonetically proper about saying 'tree' for 'three'. :)
Yep, if asked to 'say again' I would probably revert to 'niner' but
I'll doubt I'll ever say 'fife' for five or 'tree' for three while
flying in the USA.
Low Time Pilot
MCL757
>I see that you have the same notion about spelling (consistant errors in
>virtually all your e-mails). Then again, you might not know how to
>spell. If the latter is the case, then get a dictionary and look up the
What is your problem?
Why do people do this?!! ...Especially when it's to someone who contributes
alot to the group. It was very difficult for me to keep four letter words out
of this post, but, I did it!
....someone's got alot of time on their hands.....
Matt in Seattle, Student Pilot... My Unofficial Alaska Airlines Mailing List is
at AlaskaA...@onelist.com
----Fly Alaska Airlines, Horizon Air, and Continental Airlines!!!
Steven P. McNicoll
Peregrine wrote in message <7274bd$7q$1...@news1.rmi.net>...
>>>
>>> <snip> I didn't say I'm a pro, my
>>> 11,000+ hours, 8 type ratings(B757/B767) do.
>>>
>>
>> who claim some greater understanding based solely on hours logged.
>>
>
> expertise by "11,000+ hours, 8 type ratings(B757/B767) " what possible
> yardstick can be applied? I'd personally listen to everything that a pilot
> with that much experience said as being slightly short of gospel.
>
Several folks who claim to have thousands of hours and years of experience
have posted messages in these forums which were demonstrably wrong.
Onno Bulk
well.
Onno Bulk
sha...@noSpam.com wrote:
>
> In article <364854...@worldnet.att.net>,
> Onno Bulk <CondorA...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >I see that you have the same notion about spelling (consistant errors in
Onno Bulk
>
> >I see that you have the same notion about spelling (consistant errors in
> >spell. If the latter is the case, then get a dictionary and look up the
> >--CAPITALIZED-- words in your text below, and try again....
>
> What is your problem?
> Why do people do this?!! ...Especially when it's to someone who contributes
> alot to the group. It was very difficult for me to keep four letter words out
> of this post, but, I did it!
<snip>
Good for you!!
Onno Bulk
Onno Bulk
>
> >I see that you have the same notion about spelling (consistant errors in
> >virtually all your e-mails). Then again, you might not know how to
> >spell. If the latter is the case, then get a dictionary and look up the
> >--CAPITALIZED-- words in your text below, and try again....
>
> What is your problem?
> Why do people do this?!! ...Especially when it's to someone who contributes
> alot to the group.
<snip>
It was very difficult for me to keep four letter words out
> of this post, but, I did it!
Quite an achievment
Onno Bulk
>
> >I see that you have the same notion about spelling (consistant errors in
> >virtually all your e-mails). Then again, you might not know how to
> >spell. If the latter is the case, then get a dictionary and look up the
> >--CAPITALIZED-- words in your text below, and try again....
>
> What is your problem?
> Why do people do this?!! ...Especially when it's to someone who contributes
> alot to the group.
<snip>
> It was very difficult for me to keep four letter words out
> of this post, but, I did it!
Quite an achievement.
Roy Smith
> I suspect that the mispronounciations for three and five (which I've only
> seen here as I haven't read that part of the AIM) may be for use in
> noisy comm sitiuations
Technically, you're always supposed to use "niner", "tree" and "fife", but
in practice, almost everybody uses niner, and its rare to hear trees and
fifes.
I've been known to shorten foxtrot to just plain fox on occasion. Doesn't
make it right, though :-)
Roy Smith
> Several folks who claim to have thousands of hours and years of experience
> have posted messages in these forums which were demonstrably wrong.
Roger.
David Garrington
>One always needs to remember that english is the primary language of aviation
>and these somewhat strange phonetic pronunciations take into account several
>accents trying to make communications clear. As long as you are clear to the
>controller your enounciation is not all that critical, but when you go flying
>into other countries where the controllers english isn't that great, it may be
>wise to fall back on the published communications proceedures.
>
>BTW, when the radios are weak or the plane is real loud or open cockpit, I
>generally revert to the published op's, otherwise I communicate normally. The
>main point is to be understood by whomever it is you need to communicate with.
Here in the UK the Radio procedures handbook includes the same phonetics.
They are used internationally and help to reduce communication errors.
Radio Hams (Amateurs) use phonetics to improve communications, especially under difficult reception.
Many use the phonetic alphabet recommended for pilots. However due to the poorer conditions,
especially on High Frequency (HF) Single Sideband (SSB), amateurs may use longer phonetics.
I think that the use of more syllables for each phonetic improves readability under very poor
conditions.
Having been involved with emergency amateur communications for many years it becomes very obvious
that a standard phonetic language is by far the best method of communication under difficult
conditions.
I suspect that many pilots set their radio squelch quite high (or may be preset) so they never hear
poor signals. If you are ever in trouble and need to read very weak signals then the correct
phonetics will most likely help. That is once you have defeated the squelch.
I personally tend not to emphasise the phonetics unless the controller is having a problem.
Then it's time to speak slowly, clearly and with correct phonetics. - It usually works..!
I have flown for short periods whilst on holiday in Spain, Finland and USA I can assure you that
clear communications are required and a common phonetic system is very helpful when fighting with
the accents.....?
David
G-BHJO - Scotland UK
GM3RFA
Dylan Smith
Low Time Pilot wrote in message <3646a414...@news.supernews.com>...
>I don't remember EVER saying or hearing 'niner' for 'nine'. Do
>controllers really say 'niner' for 'nine'? All of the time? Do most
>pilots say 'niner' for 'nine'? All of the time?
>
>To me, it seems utterly ridiculous to say 'niner' when radio contact
>is loud and clear (ie. 99.99% of the time). How could anyone confuse
>the number pronounced 'nine' with another digit
The last digits of my phone number are 7921. You wouldn't believe how often
people have mis-written it 7521 after I've read it out over a fairly good
phone connection. Therefore I'm always careful to say "niner" for the digit
nine when talking to ATC or reading back a clearance which includes this
digit.
Gatt
> Ron Natalie <r...@sensor.com> wrote:
> > Which always annoys the hell out of me when some space
> > cadet starts saying FIVER.
>
> Must be a rabbit lover :-)
Man, that was obscure! If nobody else got it, I did. :>
Chris Gattman | "The sky is humming,
ga...@europa.com | and my motor thunders...." -Floater
Brett Rabe
> I've been known to shorten foxtrot to just plain fox on occasion. Doesn't
> make it right, though :-)
Ok. All of Roy's students, snap to and pay attention.....
:-)
Ob. Contrib.: I'm baffled by the poster that suggested the only
people he ever hears use "niner" are weekend Piper pilots. I
here "niner" far more consistently from ATC, weekend pilots, and
carriers than I do "nine."
Maybe it's a locale thing.
Brett
--
Brett Rabe Email : br...@uswest.net
Systems Administrator - U S West Phone : 612.664.3078
Interact - 3S Pager : 612.613.2549
600 Stinson Blvd. Fax : 612.664.4770
Minneapolis, MN USA Pager : page-...@uswest.net
If work is so terrific, how come they have to pay you to do it?
Brett Rabe
> It's obvious this thread is going nowhere. If one isn't convinced of
> expertise by "11,000+ hours, 8 type ratings(B757/B767) " what possible
> yardstick can be applied? I'd personally listen to everything that a pilot
> with that much experience said as being slightly short of gospel.
It's always bothered me that people automatically assume
that 11,000+ hours and 8 type ratings in large jets
makes someone right.
Right is right, wrong is wrong, subjective is subjective.
Anytime someone feels compelled to point to their ratings to
prove that they are correct, my internal warning alarms start
going crazy .....
I'd personally listen far closer to something Roy says than
a few of the alleged 11,000+ hour airline pilots in these
groups, and Roy certainly doesn't have anything close to
their experience. And I disagree with Roy enough as is. :-)
Brett
--
Brett Rabe Email : br...@uswest.net
Systems Administrator - U S West Phone : 612.664.3078
Interact - 3S Pager : 612.613.2549
600 Stinson Blvd. Fax : 612.664.4770
Minneapolis, MN USA Pager : page-...@uswest.net
He has Van Gogh's ear for music. -- Orson Welles
jga...@hotmail.com
CondorA...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>
> HLAviation,
>
> I see that you have the same notion about spelling (consistant errors in
> virtually all your e-mails). Then again, you might not know how to
> spell. If the latter is the case, then get a dictionary and look up the
> --CAPITALIZED-- words in your text below, and try again. (For someone
> who is heard so loudly on this medium, one could expect you to have at
> least some idea.....)
>
> Good luck,
>
> Onno Bulk
>
A spelling flame? That just about scrapes the bottom of the Usenet barrel.
Traditionally, this should be followed by a "Nazi" post ;-)))))))
John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180) A longtime fan of Usenet traditions!
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
HLAviation
>
>>
>> HLAviation,
>>
>> I see that you have the same notion about spelling (consistant errors in
>> virtually all your e-mails). Then again, you might not know how to
>> spell. If the latter is the case, then get a dictionary and look up the
>> --CAPITALIZED-- words in your text below, and try again. (For someone
>> who is heard so loudly on this medium, one could expect you to have at
>> least some idea.....)
>>
>> Good luck,
>>
>> Onno Bulk
>>
>
> A spelling flame? That just about scrapes the bottom of the Usenet
>barrel.
>Traditionally, this should be followed by a "Nazi" post ;-)))))))
>
>John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180) A longtime fan of Usenet traditions!
Dude, I've got a crash helmet and a nomex flight suit complete with gloves,
booties, and head sock. Man, I'm flame proof and ol Onno burns as weak as cheap
tequila. =;) Not worth the effort for a whole hearted flame out, besides
thats my wifes job.
Peregrine
Brett Rabe wrote in message <3648980D...@uswest.net>...
>
>It's always bothered me that people automatically assume
>that 11,000+ hours and 8 type ratings in large jets
>makes someone right.
>
>Right is right, wrong is wrong, subjective is subjective.
>
>Anytime someone feels compelled to point to their ratings to
>prove that they are correct, my internal warning alarms start
>going crazy .....
>
>I'd personally listen far closer to something Roy says than
>a few of the alleged 11,000+ hour airline pilots in these
>groups, and Roy certainly doesn't have anything close to
>their experience. And I disagree with Roy enough as is. :-)
>
Seems I've touched a small hot point based on this and other replies. All
right, I agree that proof is in the comments, not the qualifications. I have
some 20 years in software development, and, in fact, most of the good coders
are the young lions with five years or less. On the other hand, most of the
good project managers have 10 or 20 years. In some endeavors, experience
definitely matters. I don't know enough about flying to judge the quality of
many of the posts, or the value of raw hours as a measure of competence, but
clearly hours are one cultivator for knowledge.
On the other hand, this is the Internet, and as HL pointed out, anyone can
write anything. Which leads me to my next point. I hereby declare my
candidacy for President...
HLAviation
>years, the airlines will have completely converted over to satellite-based,
>non-voice, digital data-link communications, and there won't be any need to
>listen to the crashing static anymore except as an emergency backup. :-)
>
>
I thought it was pretty funny that even after we got Satelite E-Mail on the
boats, the fleet would still come up at noon and midnight on the side band and
call in thier position reports even though we didn't need to. I guess it's a
little different on ocean tugs than airliners. =:)
HLAviation
>well.
>
>Onno Bulk
English is my second language also, and normally I get across pretty well.
HLAviation
>flying in the USA.
>
>
With any luck though you will fly into other countries, aviations good that
way. I've flown small planes through 20 some countries if you include islands
and even in some english speaking carribean nations comms can be poor mon.:)
Always reach for beyond. Knowledge is powerful. The things in the AIM are
information and knowledge. What you do with that knowledge is your free
choice, but you are more powerful for knowing it. Arguing whether the
information is ever used isn't necessary, just knowing the information thats
whats necessary. Don't let the small silly things distract you from the big
picture which safe conduct of the flight and for that you need minimum
distractions and maximum knowledge. Even the silly things like wierd
phoenetics are knowledge.
Onno Bulk
Somehow, it must have hit somewhere! Personally, I would have ignored
e-mails of that nature completely.
Onno Bulk
HLAviation
>On the other hand, this is the Internet, and as HL pointed out, anyone can
>write anything. Which leads me to my next point. I hereby declare my
>candidacy for President...
>
>
I'll sell you my vote, just send cash.
LFransson
In article <364854...@worldnet.att.net>, Onno wrote:
>I see that you have the same notion about spelling (consistant errors in
>virtually all your e-mails). Then again, you might not know how to
>spell. If the latter is the case, then get a dictionary and look up the
>--CAPITALIZED-- words in your text below, and try again. (For someone
>who is heard so loudly on this medium, one could expect you to have at
>least some idea.....)
Pot, kettle, black?
Ya know, it's generally considered bad form to commit the same error that one
is criticizing. If one needs a hint, try looking up "consistant" in a
dictionary. : )
Larry L. Fransson - ATP (CE-500), CFMEII
Macon, Georgia
"Pilots are just plane people with a different air about them."
Richard Hyde
: I agree with most of what you say except your characterization of the
: official pronunciations as 'phonetically proper'. There is nothing
: phonetically proper about saying 'tree' for 'three'. :)
: Yep, if asked to 'say again' I would probably revert to 'niner' but
: I'll doubt I'll ever say 'fife' for five or 'tree' for three while
: flying in the USA.
AIM 4-2-7
"The ICAO phonetic alphabet is used by FAA personal when communications
conditions are such that the information cannot be readily received without
their use. ATC facilities may also request pilots to use phonetic
letter equivalents when aircraft with similar sounding identifications
are receiving communications on the same frequency. Pilots should use
the phonetic alphabet when identifying their aircraft during initial
contact with air traffic control facilities. Additionally, use the
phonetic equivalents for single letters or to spell out groups of
letters or difficult words during adverse communications conditions".
By international convention, the pronunciations are "phonetically proper".
While you may never need them, you should know them, and be prepared to use
them, should need arise.
If communications are *really* bad, you could say "Foxtrot India Victor
Echo Thousand Feet". :-)
If you even -think- communications might be unclear, use the phonetic
pronnunciation. After all, why not?
Tally ho! :-)
Cheers,
Rick
--
Include "wombat" in Subject: line of mail sent to me [to override spamgard(tm)]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Richard Hyde | R...@netcom.com | This space intentionally left blank |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TJH
I've been around, and I've heard what Mr. Low Time Pilot says doesn't need to be
said. If you've been around, you'd hear what the rest of us have heard, namely
pilot and controllers alike using "niner, and other correct pronunciations. I
personally dont care what you think of high time, or low time pilots and their
experience. You want to think I'm wrong BECAUSE of my time and ratings, that's
OK by me, I got thick skin. And been told, have a head to match, haha.
Next....
TJ
Brett Rabe wrote:
> Peregrine wrote:
>
> > It's obvious this thread is going nowhere. If one isn't convinced of
> > expertise by "11,000+ hours, 8 type ratings(B757/B767) " what possible
> > yardstick can be applied? I'd personally listen to everything that a pilot
> > with that much experience said as being slightly short of gospel.
>
> It's always bothered me that people automatically assume
> that 11,000+ hours and 8 type ratings in large jets
> makes someone right.
>
> Right is right, wrong is wrong, subjective is subjective.
>
> Anytime someone feels compelled to point to their ratings to
> prove that they are correct, my internal warning alarms start
> going crazy .....
>
> I'd personally listen far closer to something Roy says than
> a few of the alleged 11,000+ hour airline pilots in these
> groups, and Roy certainly doesn't have anything close to
> their experience. And I disagree with Roy enough as is. :-)
>
TJH
of time and experience has made them wrong too...
TJ
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:
> Peregrine wrote in message <7274bd$7q$1...@news1.rmi.net>...
> >>>
> >>> <snip> I didn't say I'm a pro, my
> >>> 11,000+ hours, 8 type ratings(B757/B767) do.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I see you are quite full of yourself. I remain unimpressed by those
> >> who claim some greater understanding based solely on hours logged.
> >>
> >
> > It's obvious this thread is going nowhere. If one isn't convinced of
> > expertise by "11,000+ hours, 8 type ratings(B757/B767) " what possible
> > yardstick can be applied? I'd personally listen to everything that a pilot
> > with that much experience said as being slightly short of gospel.
> >
>
Derek Rowan
unintentional bias/prejudice of a pilot's skill level based on radio
technique. I consider myself radio competent because of a couple of
factors. 1. I'm a fire department company officer and am quite comfortable
talking on the radio, although this does not a pilot radio person make. 2.
and most importantly, I learned to fly at a very busy towered GA airport
under busy class b airspace, so talking on the radio was introduced quite
early in my training and reinforced on every flight.
With that in mind, I have a pilot friend who is also a fire department
officer who sounds quite relaxed and comfortable on the radio, but his pilot
radio technique is lacking because of not enough practice. He is a good
instrument rated pilot however.
I have another friend who is a good pilot, but is terrible on the radio
because he learned at a non towered airport, and flew very few hours where
he was in communication. His radio technique bears this out.
I consider both of these pilots to be good, but have poor radio
communications. However, I too sometimes find myself pre-judging a pilot
based on radio technique. This is something I have to be careful of
naturally. There are a couple of potential GENERALIZED truths that can be
associated with radio technique. In my experience, good radio technique
comes from experience -- but not of talking on the radio, but rather knowing
what to expect from the controller. For example, as a VFR pilot I felt my
radio technique was good. Almost all of my flights in my 250 VFR hours were
cross country with flight following. I knew exactly what to expect from
controllers flying into all kinds of different air spaces into many
different terminal areas. But after this, during my instrument training, my
radio technique would become poor on items in which I didn't know what to
expect and often times viewed my own communications with disbelief.
That told me that it is true that my piloting probably reflected my radio
technique, because I wasn't sure what the next step was, so I was often
behind the airplane and my flying showed that. I have also found this to
be true with some pilots at non towered airports. I have often (although
not a majority) seen mistakes in piloting from pilots who have poor radio
communications when talking at non towered airports.
As far as this original thread is concerned: I say niner, but when it comes
to the 3 well, here is where I'm hypocritical. My airplane has a 3 in the
call sign and out of habit, I say tree when using my call sign, but say
three everywhere else. Oh well. In my experience, I almost never hear a
controller say tree or fife, but the huge majority of the time controllers
say niner. Pilots say niner less than controllers do.
Derek
Dan Silbaugh wrote in message <3645E9A6...@ccvp.com>...
>
>
>Low Time Pilot wrote:
>
>> Dan Silbaugh <black-...@ccvp.com> wrote:
>>
>> >So let me understand this. You do say 'niner' to "keep disciplines",
>> yet you opt not to use the mispronunciations 'fife' or 'tree' most of
>> the time. Hum... doesn't sound very disciplined to me.
>
> Yeah. I gotta work on that (so if anyone out there in Indiana hears
someone saying
>"fife" and "tree," it's me)
>
>> Finally, I must say I find your low impression of pilots who say
>> 'nine' instead of 'niner' quite amusing. I suspect such impressions
>> have little basis in fact.
>
> Well, I really don't know if it has any basis in fact or not. And
quite frankly, I
>don't care. If all I have to judge a pilot's skill is his radio technique,
I'm going to
>notice how good his technique is. On a similar note, you ever been in a
tower listening
>to their comments on different pilots? It's almost completely based upon
radio
>procedures. I can't tell you how many times when a pilot calls up using
"nine" and
>putting long pauses or otherwise lengthening his broadcast that eh
controllers say
>"you've got a student pilot coming to 23, you'd better leave him a big
space for
>departure." It seems I'm not the only one who does this after all...
>
>Dan
>
>
MCL757
Thanks for caring!
Dylan Smith
John J. Miller wrote in message <727ilm$743$1...@news-2.csn.net>...
>But is this plane identified using Gee-Bee-Kay-eM-Ay OR Golf,
>Bravo,Kilo,Mike,Alpha ??? And is the G/Golf normally dropped in the UK as
is
>prefix N/November when flying in the USA? G-FPFP would be quite a mouthful
>with the latter.
The Golf isn't dropped. For example, a few weeks ago I was in Manchester and
flew G-BOIL out of Barton. Initially it's "Golf Bravo Oscar India Lima", but
then shortened to "Golf India Lima".
Jim Wolper
> flew G-BOIL out of Barton. Initially it's "Golf Bravo Oscar India Lima", but
> then shortened to "Golf India Lima".
When I lived in Canada I used to fly C-FQOS, a real
tongue-twister even when shortened to Quebec Oscar Sierra.
JSW
Jack
> Technically, you're always supposed to use "niner", "tree" and "fife", but
> in practice, almost everybody uses niner, and its rare to hear trees and
> fifes.
>
> I've been known to shorten foxtrot to just plain fox on occasion. Doesn't
> make it right, though :-)
Roy and I don't always agree, but the above is the perfect response.
Nothing more needs to be said on the subject.
Could we move on now please?
Jack
--
:--------------------------------------:
: http://home.earthlink.net/~baron58 :
:======================================:
: http://www.nAsgrp.com :
:--------------------------------------:
Warren Jones
comm frequencies are crystal clear to ATC need to pay a visit to your
local radar facility, esp. Centers which use remote comm sites.
Controllers are often using backup receivers, standby receivers or even
frequencies patched in to a sector because the primary *flight checked*
frequency is out of service. Radio reception is often horrible on the
ground.
Because transmission and/or reception can be 5x5 on one end and
garbled on the other, competant controllers do indeed use "niner"
instead of "nine". This is because (rightully so) the ATCS gets hung
with an OE if he or she misses a readback that results in a sep error.
You look pretty stupid trying to explain to QA why the airplane you told
to "Descend and maintain Flight Level Two Nine Zero" smoked the traffic
at FL280 on the way to 25, especially when the tapes reveal the pilot
read back "Speedbird 24 departing Flight Level 310 to maintain Flight
Level Two Five Zero."
"Gee Mrs. Cruella, I was just sure he read back twenty nine. It was
as clear as the stars in December. How long does this deal stay on my
record?"
Chip, ZTL
Roger J.Hamlett
Miller) writes:
>
> In article <364731DD...@scigen.co.uk>, Julian Scarfe
<ja...@scigen.co.uk> wrote:
> <snip>
> >"G-MA established"
> >"G-MA contact Stansted Director one two six decimal five five"
> >[flip]
> >"Stansted G-BKMA localizer established"
> >"G-BKMA this is Booker Tower"
> >blush
> <snip>
>
> But is this plane identified using Gee-Bee-Kay-eM-Ay OR Golf,
> Bravo,Kilo,Mike,Alpha ??? And is the G/Golf normally dropped in
the UK as is
> prefix N/November when flying in the USA? G-FPFP would be quite a
mouthful
> with the latter.
two characters after the hyphen. I suspect it is because of the
'proximity' of a lot of different airspaces. Hence aircraft are
often, Belgian, German, French Spanish etc., and flying in the one
airspace. Some callsigns allways manage to be a 'mouthful', things
like 'Golf charlie x-ray x-ray yankee', never seem to quite 'roll
from the tongue'. Length doesn't seem to be the problem, but
particular 'combinations' can be awkward.
Best Wishes
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
| EMail ro...@ttelmah.demon.co.uk http://www.ttelmah.demon.co.uk/ |
| A beard! A beard! cried Fly Nicholas.'By God, that's a good one!'|
| (Chaucer) |
Julian Scarfe
> As others have said, the 'practice' in the UK, is to drop the
> two characters after the hyphen. I suspect it is because of the
> 'proximity' of a lot of different airspaces. Hence aircraft are
> often, Belgian, German, French Spanish etc., and flying in the one
> airspace.
It's a nice theory, though in Germany I always seem to get called D-MA about
one time in three and in the UK I hear F- and D- aircraft get called G-! :-)
--
Julian Scarfe
Brett Rabe
> In some endeavors, experience
> definitely matters. I don't know enough about flying to judge the quality of
> many of the posts, or the value of raw hours as a measure of competence, but
> clearly hours are one cultivator for knowledge.
Experience *matters* -- very few would deny that. My gripe is
twofold: 1) Automatic kowtowing to someone because of their
(potentially only alleged) experience. Someone earns my respect
by demonstrating knowledge, not by telling me how good they are
because of how many hours they have. 2) Anyone using their hours
as prima facie evidence of their correctness. You're either correct
or you aren't -- the number of hours you've flown has nothing
to do with it.
> On the other hand, this is the Internet, and as HL pointed out, anyone can
> write anything. Which leads me to my next point. I hereby declare my
> candidacy for President...
If you'll be GA-friendly, you can probably get a lot of
single-issue voters. :-) :-)
Cheers!
Brett
--
Brett Rabe Email : br...@uswest.net
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