Looping a 747 for real, did it ever happen????
Jan Lustrup LA3EQ
ferry trip in a 747?
Of course his would lose his license, but as I was told, it was his last
flight jobb anyway , so he did not care.
Is this story true?
Jan Lustrup
Glider instuctor, IK2
Bergen, Norway
Peter Duniho
news:3CFC69...@start.no...
> Is it true that someone in the US did a loop with a 747 on his last
> ferry trip in a 747?
No, it's not true.
I've never even heard that particular urban legend, but it's probably the
result of the true story of the 707 being rolled (not looped, and NOT on a
flight with paying passengers) getting all screwed up as people who can't
get the details straight pass it along.
Pete
Jerry Leslie
: "Jan Lustrup LA3EQ" <lus...@start.no> wrote in message
This page has some photos shot through the Dash-80's windows during
the roll.
http://www.historylink.org/output.cfm?file_id=390
On one "Wings" episode on the 707/KC-135, Boeing President William
Allen was reported to have asked test pilot "Tex" Johnston what he
thought he was doing.
The reply from "Tex" was "Selling airplanes". Mr. Allen asked him
not to do that again. IIRC, the Air Force ordered KC-135s a day or
so later.
--Jerry Leslie les...@clio.rice.edu (my opinions are strictly my own)
Note: les...@jrlvax.houston.rr.com is invalid for email
John Gaquin
"Jan Lustrup LA3EQ" <lus...@start.no> wrote in message
> Is it true that someone in the US did a loop with a 747.....
Urban legend.
JG
Ron Natalie
It also wasn't a 707. It was the dash 80, Boeing's 4 engine jet prototype
that they were pitching to the military as a cargo/tanker. It evolved into
the KC-135 (with a different wing) and the 707 (with a different fuselage,
widened to compete against the DC-8).
Herb Martin
quite possible to do as a constant 1 G maneuver if
done correctly.
And he was a "test pilot" flying one of the early aircraft
in a demonstration, so he might not have been
subject to normal FAA rules had anybody bothered
to complain.
The President of Boeing yelled at him a lot and threatened
to fire him.
Herb Martin, PP-SEL
(...and aerobatic student)
Try ADDS for great Weather too:
http://adds.aviationweather.noaa.gov/projects/adds
"Peter Duniho" <NpOeS...@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> wrote in message
news:uforb57...@corp.supernews.com...
Dave Stadt
"Herb Martin" <He...@LearnQuick.Com> wrote in message
news:N16L8.151176$9F5.8...@typhoon.austin.rr.com...
> Not only was it a roll, but it was a barrel roll -- which is
> quite possible to do as a constant 1 G maneuver if
> done correctly.
>
> And he was a "test pilot" flying one of the early aircraft
> in a demonstration, so he might not have been
> subject to normal FAA rules had anybody bothered
> to complain.
>
> The President of Boeing yelled at him a lot and threatened
> to fire him.
Tex would not have been fired no matter what he did. He was not yelled at,
he was asked what he was doing. He answered the question and that was that.
Darrell
could have happened in a flight simulator. On my last Boeing 767 recurrent
sim check before retirement the sim instructor let me do whatever I wanted
to do. I took off from Chicago, did a barrell roll on departure, flew
through the "buildings" of Chicago. Then I had him zap me to final at John
Wayne to land on the short runway 19L. Took off again, did a barrell roll
and then up to 10,000' to do a loop. I almost screwed up the simulator.
It "hung up" on its back and wouldn't fall through the horizon for a while.
Then with a "thump" it fell through and I finished the loop.
He then had me fire up my APU and failed both engines to see if I could
deadstick in on runway 01L at SNA. Came out great. But... remember... this
was all in a flight simulator. That's probably where your 747 story came
from.
Jan Lustrup LA3EQ wrote:
--
Darrell R. Schmidt
dsch...@cox.net
B-58 Hustler History: http://members.cox.net/dschmidt1/
My email address is wrong to stop SPAM.
To respond remove the "stop" from it.
Markus Voget
> remember... this was all in a flight simulator. That's probably where
> your 747 story came from.
A couple of years ago in an Internet forum I was reading at the time, Mel
Ott (aka Cap'n Tarmack), a retired 747-400 captain for Northwest Airlines,
discussed looping this particular plane in his airline's simulator and in
Microsoft Flight Simulator.
He had apparently done both (first practising it at home) and the
respective parameters came out very nearly the same: altitude reached,
remaining speed at the top, g's pulled.
Greetings,
Markus
Robert Moore
> quite possible to do as a constant 1 G maneuver if
> done correctly.
Seeing that by definition, a "barrel roll" is a combination of a
roll and a loop, just how does one accomplish this at a 1g level,
seeing that straight and level flight is done at 1g?
Having learned "barrel rolls" flying T-28s in the US Navy, IIRC
it was somewhere around a 3g maneuver.
I would suggest "The Flight Instructor's Manual" By William K.
Kershner for a good explanation of the barrel roll.
I still have the "Wings" episode of the Boeing -80 on videotape
and it is true that the narrator uses the term "1 g maneuver", to
describe the Barrel roll, but it seems to me that he misspoke and
meant to say "positive g maneuver" which is true. In addition, it
does not appear to be a "real" barrel roll by the strict definition
of the maneuver.
Bob Moore, ATP
ASMEL B-707, B-727
CFI ASE-IA
Peter Duniho
news:3CFCC75F...@sensor.com...
> It also wasn't a 707. It was the dash 80, Boeing's 4 engine jet prototype
> that they were pitching to the military as a cargo/tanker.
Heh. Okay. I shorted "707 prototype" to 707. I did realize it wasn't a
production aircraft, though it just as easily could have been.
Of course, the Dash 80 was a lot more like the 707 than it is like a 747.
:)
Pete
Bob
misstep (as many here tend to do).
Why would you think that he would lose his license? If it HAD occurred and
he had enough altitude AND wasn't over a conjested are AND was wearing a
chute, I don't see why this would have been a problem. Losing his job is a
different matter.
????
Bob
"Jan Lustrup LA3EQ" <lus...@start.no> wrote in message
news:3CFC69...@start.no...
Rick Durden
Tex Johnston's autobiography has a good discussion of the testing of
the Dash 80 (which became the 717/KC-135, not the 707, as American
Airlines' president, C.R. Smith refused to accept the prototype
because the fuselage was too narrow, among other things...at his
request, Boeing widened the fuselage to fit six seats across, made
changes to the engine pylons and the inboard portion of the wing and
created the 707, which was sold on the civilian market. According to
various Boeing histories, the 717 (of course Boeing has reused the
number assuming no one will notice) was built on the KC-97 assembly
because the fuselage was the same width. The 707 line was separate.
Johnston regularly rolled the Dash 80 during the flight test program,
culminating with the very public series of rolls over the hydroplane
races in Seattle. It apparently worked, and it probably sold a number
of airplanes. His autobiography does not indicate he ever looped it.
He did, however, loop and roll the B-47, largely because it simply had
so much power. His description indicates that the diameter of the
loop was something in excess of 7,000 feet.
All the best,
Rick
LES...@JRLVAX.HOUSTON.RR.COM (Jerry Leslie) wrote in message news:<m%_K8.150576$9F5.8...@typhoon.austin.rr.com>...
C.Fleming
news:3CFCF09F...@cox.net...
> Anything is possible but I doubt someone would try a loop in a 747. It
> could have happened in a flight simulator. On my last Boeing 767 recurrent
> sim check before retirement the sim instructor let me do whatever I wanted
> It "hung up" on its back and wouldn't fall through the horizon for a
while.
> Then with a "thump" it fell through and I finished the loop.
When I was going through my initial 767 training in Miami, the sim
instructor told me that a Pan-Am 747 crew (a decade ago) was screwing around
in the sim: trying rolls (or loops, I don't remember) and other stuff. He
said that they didn't turn the sim's motion off, and when they were coming
through the top of the maneuver, one of the sim's three legs ripped itself
out of the concrete floor, and the sim 'crashed' to the floor! I think some
bones were broken, and I think the instructor got fired and the pilots given
time off. I have no idea whether the story is true or not; I personally
don't know if a sim is even capable of ripping a leg out of the concrete...
It made for a good debrief story, though!
Chris Fleming
Robert Moore
> instructor told me that a Pan-Am 747 crew (a decade ago) was screwing
> around in the sim: trying rolls (or loops, I don't remember) and other
> stuff. He said that they didn't turn the sim's motion off, and when
> they were coming through the top of the maneuver, one of the sim's
> three legs ripped itself out of the concrete floor, and the sim
> 'crashed' to the floor! I think some bones were broken, and I think
> the instructor got fired and the pilots given time off. I have no
> idea whether the story is true or not; I personally don't know if a
> sim is even capable of ripping a leg out of the concrete... It made
> for a good debrief story, though!
Well....I was with PanAm (Miami) until the end in 1991 and I can
tell you that it never happened.
I taught in the 727/707 simulators for years and knew the staff
quite well.
We had a couple of professional simulator instructors where most
were line copilots on loan to the training department. One of the
pros, Lew Oats, when having problems with a student would shut down
numbers three and four on the old 707, roll it upside down and fly
two engine ILS to minimums.
Bob Moore
ATP B-727, B-707
PanAm (retired)
Rick Durden
I think you may have intended to refer to a barrel roll as a
"positive" G maneuver rather than a "1" G maneuver. With the pullups
at each end of the maneuver you wind up with more than 1 G. Depending
on which version of the barrel roll you do (whether the directional
change at level inverted is 30, 45 or 90 degrees) the G load ranges
from a low of about 2 to a high of about 3.5.
There is an old film of Bob Hoover pouring iced tea from a pitcher
into a glass on the top of the panel of a Shrike as he does a barrel
roll. Not only is the properly done maneuver positive G, the ball
stays centered.
He was flying the prototype "Dash 80" which became the 717, but the
time he got a lot of attention was over the hydroplane races in
Seattle. He had not gotten any clearance for akro, but, back then,
the FAA didn't seem to care as they never said anything about the
rolls nor the fact that he came clipping over the lake at over 400
knots.
All the best,
Rick
"Herb Martin" <He...@LearnQuick.Com> wrote in message news:<N16L8.151176$9F5.8...@typhoon.austin.rr.com>...
Herb Martin
that this could be done (if done very carefully) at
1 G.
Obviously, I cannot be done at precisely 1 G since
you do have to pull up (at least some).
Thanks for the correction.
--
Herb Martin, PP-SEL
(...and aerobatic student)
Try ADDS for great Weather too:
http://adds.aviationweather.noaa.gov/projects/adds
"Rick Durden" <rdu...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:d9fecbe.02060...@posting.google.com...
Seth Masia
Unarguably the most famous of Tex Johnston's maneuvers, indeed one of
the most well-known feats in all of aviation history, was executed at
a demonstration flight at which over 200,000 spectators were present.
Of the audience who was fortunate enough to see Tex's unprecedented
and unauthorized Boeing 707 barrel roll, he comments, "The collective
number of aircraft industry attendees was probably a first in aviation
history and presented a historic opportunity to promote the Dash 80."
In his typically matter-of-fact narrative style, he simply comments,
"I pulled the nose up and executed a leisurely climbing left barrel
roll, and then began the descent to Lake Washington."
If I recall the book correctly, Johnston *was* fired, and rehired 12
hours later.
C.Fleming
"Robert Moore" <rmoo...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9223A7D91A782rm...@65.32.1.6...
> Well....I was with PanAm (Miami) until the end in 1991 and I can
> tell you that it never happened.
> I taught in the 727/707 simulators for years and knew the staff
> quite well.
> We had a couple of professional simulator instructors where most
> were line copilots on loan to the training department. One of the
> pros, Lew Oats, when having problems with a student would shut down
> numbers three and four on the old 707, roll it upside down and fly
> two engine ILS to minimums.
>
> Bob Moore
> ATP B-727, B-707
> PanAm (retired)
Yeah, it didn't seem very believable. I did an inverted ILS in a Falcon 20
simulator several years ago. I was giggling the whole way down! I bet the
707 students had their jaws on the floor watching the resident pro doing it
with both engines on the same side shut down!
Chris Fleming
ATP/CFI
journeyman
On Tue, 4 Jun 2002 00:33:35 -0700, Peter Duniho
<NpOeS...@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> wrote:
>I've never even heard that particular urban legend, but it's probably the
>result of the true story of the 707 being rolled (not looped, and NOT on a
>flight with paying passengers) getting all screwed up as people who can't
>get the details straight pass it along.
FWIW, the co-pilot on that flight is a regular at the Saturday morning
coffee/hangar flying session at Wings Aloft in Seattle.
Morris