Lycoming Oil Leak
Richard L. Dillon
the gasket between the case and the oil pan. I have tightened the bolts
holding the two parts together, but the leak persists. My A&P says that the
engine must be pulled and the gasket replaced to stop the leak. He says
about 3 days for one man to do the job, which equates to around $1,000.
Have any of you solved this problem by a less expensive means? If so please
tell me the method you used.
Thanks for your reply.
Richard Dillon
Newps
gasket? Are you serious? In my 182 all I have to do is remove both
cowl halves and there it is. I don't think I would even have to mess
with the exhaust system.
CITABRICKR
reply to someone's questions.
Michael
<3839...@nntp-out.newsnerds.com>...
> The Lycoming O 360 A4A in my Cherokee 180 has developed an oil leak
around
> the gasket between the case and the oil pan. I have tightened the bolts
> holding the two parts together, but the leak persists. My A&P says that
the
> engine must be pulled and the gasket replaced to stop the leak. He says
> about 3 days for one man to do the job, which equates to around $1,000.
>
> Have any of you solved this problem by a less expensive means? If so
please
> tell me the method you used.
Sounds like bullshit to me. I know a guy with a Cherokee 140 who just
dropped down the bottom cowling, removed the airbox and exhausts,
dropped down the oil pan, swapped gaskets, and put it back together.
On the other hand, $1000 at $50/hr is 20 hrs, which sounds about right
for the amount of work. None of it is complex - if you can get someone
to sign for it you ought to be able to do it yourself.
Michael
Mike Spera
>
> The Lycoming O 360 A4A in my Cherokee 180 has developed an oil leak around
> the gasket between the case and the oil pan. I have tightened the bolts
> holding the two parts together, but the leak persists. My A&P says that the
> engine must be pulled and the gasket replaced to stop the leak. He says
> about 3 days for one man to do the job, which equates to around $1,000.
>
> Have any of you solved this problem by a less expensive means? If so please
> tell me the method you used.
>
>
> Richard Dillon
Richard,
Are you absolutely sure its the oil pan gasket? Lycoming 0-320s AND
0-360s have a long history of leaking at the bottom front case seam. It
drips oil on the exhaust stacks, alternator, oil pan front, and cowling.
If it is a seam leak, dropping the starter for access, followed by a
thorough cleaning with MEK, and the some silicone sealer will usually
buy you a couple of hundred hours. If it is the pan, you are on your
own. Ain't done one yet so I cannot comment.
Good Luck,
Mike
TToggir
>to sign for it you ought to be able to do it yourself.
Why would a mech want to sign off work and assume legal responsibility for the
job, seeing how he neither did the work nor was PAID for the work?
Yet be legally liable if something happens afterward, as a result of this work,
and his name's all over the logbooks.
Rob
Ron Natalie
Because the mechanic has a good attitude? I can't tell you the number
of grunt jobs that I've done on my plane (mostly involving removal of
the prop, dang Hartzell). She comes over and looks at the finished
work (I let her safety wire the actuator again). I don't do anything
unless I've cleared the procedure with her exactly first.
George R. Patterson III
>
> Why would a mech want to sign off work and assume legal responsibility for the
> job, seeing how he neither did the work nor was PAID for the work?
> Yet be legally liable if something happens afterward, as a result of this work,
> and his name's all over the logbooks.
Mine does it because it's good customer relations. He knows full well
that he won't be doing *any* work on my aircraft if he doesn't allow me
to do as much as I'm willing to do under his supervision. His attitude
is the result of competition, and I can see that this might not apply
in cases in which the shop is the only one around for several hundred
miles. He charges at the rate of $50/hr for the supervision, but this is
a small fraction of the amount of time it would take him to do the job
himself.
My logic is basically this. 1. The regs allow the mechanic to do this.
2. Any mechanic who doesn't do this at all is being unreasonable. 3. I
hold the checkbook.
As a side note, the local shop knows me and knows my work. I can fully
understand that a mechanic will need some basis to develop the trust
necessary to allow much in the way of owner maintenance, but that trust
can never develop if the mechanic doesn't allow the owner to do any.
George Patterson, N3162Q.
Michael
> Why would a mech want to sign off work and assume legal responsibility
for the
> job, seeing how he neither did the work nor was PAID for the work?
> Yet be legally liable if something happens afterward, as a result of this
work,
> and his name's all over the logbooks.
Because it's the right thing to do. Because it's done all the time.
Because it's specifically permitted by the regulations.
Because I don't deal with mechanics who won't do that, and
neither do most pilots I know. Because lots of pilots could
not afford to own airplanes if this was not done.
I'm happy to pay the mechanic for the time he spends
supervising me. On the 20 hr job that started this, that
should be about 1-2 hrs at most.
Michael
Rick
I have no problem with you working under my supervision and signing off
your work if I find it acceptable.My shop rates are as follows:
$50.00/Hr if I do the work
$100.00/Hr. if you watch
$150.00/Hr. if you help
$200.00/Hr. if you do the work and I watch
$250.00/Hr if you do the work,supply the parts and I watch
How does that compare with your local car dealership?
Michael
> I have no problem with you working under my supervision and signing off
> your work if I find it acceptable.My shop rates are as follows:
>
> $50.00/Hr if I do the work
> $100.00/Hr. if you watch
> $150.00/Hr. if you help
> $200.00/Hr. if you do the work and I watch
> $250.00/Hr if you do the work,supply the parts and I watch
>
> How does that compare with your local car dealership?
I have no idea. It compares VERY poorly with the mechanic I
work with now. Please let me know where your shop is located
so I'll know to avoid it like the plague.
If you want to compare yourself to a car dealership, I have some
questions myself:
How long is your parts and labor warranty? What sort of
airplane do you offer as a loaner while mine is in your
shop? What percentage of your repairs are completed
within the original time and costs estimates given to the
client?
Michael
Dylan Smith
news:383C27...@isomedia.com...
> I have no problem with you working under my supervision and signing off
> your work if I find it acceptable.My shop rates are as follows:
>
> $50.00/Hr if I do the work
> $100.00/Hr. if you watch
> $150.00/Hr. if you help
> $200.00/Hr. if you do the work and I watch
> $250.00/Hr if you do the work,supply the parts and I watch
> How does that compare with your local car dealership?
Good job our mechanic doesn't do that, or else I would never be able to
afford a plane!
How does it compare with my local car dealership? I don't know - I don't
take my truck to a shop if I can possibly help it, and if I do, it's never a
dealership (I use a small shop instead who depends on their reputation to
keep their business). Since I don't need a signoff to work on my truck, it
makes it even easier to do all my own work on it.
--
Dylan Smith, Houston TX.
http://www.icct.net/~dyls
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"
George R. Patterson III
>
> If you want to compare yourself to a car dealership, I have some
> questions myself:
To which I would add that car dealerships bill me a fixed price for the
job, NOT a "by the hour" labor rate. Let me know when you intend to do
that.
George Patterson, N3162Q.
Rod Farlee
>The Lycoming O 360 A4A in my Cherokee 180 has developed an oil leak around
>the gasket between the case and the oil pan. I have tightened the bolts
>holding the two parts together, but the leak persists. My A&P says that the
>engine must be pulled and the gasket replaced to stop the leak. He says
>about 3 days for one man to do the job, which equates to around $1,000.
No one seems to have noted why this is necessary. It's because of
interference between the engine mount/nosegear and oil pan in the
PA 28-180. You can't get the oil pan off without hoisting the engine.
I'm not saying his estimate of 3 days is high, but my A&P has gotten
it down to just under 2 days. He had to do several, for the oil pump
AD (sometimes it's possible to do that without breaking the gasket
between the accessory case and back of the oil pan, if the gasket is
relatively new, i.e. low time SMOH).
There might be a way to avoid replacing the gasket, at least if it isn't
too old and has cracked (lower oil pan slightly, clean and apply sealant).
But if the engine is past midtime or so, it's probably cracked, or will
crack when the oil pan is loosened.
- Rod Farlee
Mike Spera
>
> >None of it is complex - if you can get someone
> >to sign for it you ought to be able to do it yourself.
>
> job, seeing how he neither did the work nor was PAID for the work?
> Yet be legally liable if something happens afterward, as a result of this work,
> and his name's all over the logbooks.
>
Well,
Because I stopped handing the plane over to other mechanics when I wound
up redoing their work with my current mechanic looking on. This is done
all the time (as I'm sure you are now fully aware... and on fire from
the inevitable flames from others). The supervision is absolutely
necessary because innocuous little details make a difference in the air.
Presumably, most licensed mechanics have "been there and done that"
enough that they are fully aware of the important stuff and advise you
on these details.
Lots of airplane repairs involve uninteresting and/or greasy operations
that a mechanic would avoid if the owner was willing and able to tackle
them without mucking up other things in the process. Problem is usually
finding a that elusive combination of a willing mechanic and an owner
with enough talent and experience to actually be useful.....
Good Luck,
mike
George R Patterson
>
> I have no problem with you working under my supervision and signing off
> your work if I find it acceptable.My shop rates are as follows:
>
> $50.00/Hr if I do the work
> $100.00/Hr. if you watch
> $150.00/Hr. if you help
> $200.00/Hr. if you do the work and I watch
> $250.00/Hr if you do the work,supply the parts and I watch
I assume that any shop this desperate for work can't be any good, and I
wouldn't take my aircraft there in the first place.
George Patterson, N3162Q.
Rick
Your Point?
The fact of the matter is I will recognize you and your kind as soon as
you cross the runway threshold.Always looking for something for nothing,
the world owes you something.I might suggest that you quit your day job,
enroll in a Part 147 school,pay your tuition for two years,successfully
complete the program,pass your written,oral and practical tests,invest
forty or fifty thousand dollars for tools and reference material secure
a lease for a facility.Or perhaps become eligable for your license while
working OJT for the required time for maybe six to eight dollars an
hour.Then you will be able maybe to bill 3 or 4 hours a day at your shop
rate (the other 4 or 5 out of eight spent dealing with a bunch of
assholes looking for free shit).I don't owe you shit!I don't need you
wasting my time I don't appreciate the attitude of you or your little
commie buddies and am anything but desparate for your business.You ask
where my shop is so you can avoid it like the plague,well you will know
it when you get there it will be the one closing the hanger doors when I
see you coming!
Rick
>
> Well I am a capitalist to the core and I don't like your attitude either.
> There are worthy competitors, you sure don't have to worry about me
> darkening your door. If you think I am only after something for nothing
> because I want to watch or help, you are trying without success to insult my
> intelligence. You think I am going to beg you to take my money with that
> sullen attitude?
>
> Did you get your start at a unionized new car dealership or something? If
> you think you are gonna shoo me out of the shop while you got my bird in
> pieces then I figure you got something to hide.
>
> If you come into my manufacturing shop you are going to pay for the services
> rendered. But the atmosphere is friendly and open. And on rare occasions,
> customers do come in and assist in tweaking of equipment they have
> purchased. And we go to great lengths to educate them in what we are doing,
> because our competitors like to be secretive about the technology. Our
> customers always come back. We won't even hire people with your attitude.
> We won't tolerate that kind of treatment of a customer by any employee,
> either. We can't afford to drive away customers, particularly the most
> intelligent ones.
>
> You think my attitude about my business or yours will be any different when
> I move up to larger airplanes? You think you're the only one that made an
> investment in time and money for your profession? You think that makes you
> special or something, that you can outright disrespect the people who pay
> your way?
>
> Someday your hangar doors will be closed for good. Seen it happen before
> and it will happen again.
>
> --97T--
>
YOUR POINT?
> Rick <scud...@isomedia.com> wrote in message
> news:383DEA...@isomedia.com...
DOW_9er7Tango
Kevin Brown
Hmm...let me get this straight: you consider your time to be worth more
when you're doing less?
That's a rather, um, unusual attitude to have.
Wouldn't you be better off charging a consistent hourly rate for your
work regardless of the circumstances? If the owner acquires the parts
then he has spent time that you don't have to, and you get to charge the
same amount anyway, right? Or do you charge your hourly rate for the time
you spend acquiring parts in addition to the cost of the parts themselves?
If the owner decides to watch and ask questions then you'll be spending
more time on his particular job which means you'll be making more money
since you're still charging your hourly rate for that time. Same if he
tries to help.
If the owner does the work and you watch, you're still charging for
your time but now you don't have to actually do the work! If he does
the work and you inspect it later then that frees you up to go work on
someone else's plane, right?
So by charging more per hour for anything other than doing the work
yourself, you not only reduce the amount of business you're likely to
get, you also reduce the number of opportunities you get to make more
money in your business.
Well, it's your business, and your problem if it goes toes up.
--
Kevin Brown ke...@sysexperts.com
This is your .signature virus: < begin 644 .signature (9V]T8VAA(0K0z end >
This is your .signature virus on drugs: <>
Any questions?
Mike Dillon
<YOUR POINT?
Excellent response Rick - your quick wit and mental agility astound us all!
After 97T reads this, I doubt we'll have to put up with anymore
half-thought, dim witted responses from him again.
MD
Rick wrote in message <383E06...@isomedia.com>...
> YOUR POINT?
>> Rick <scud...@isomedia.com> wrote in message
>> news:383DEA...@isomedia.com...
Matthew Whiting
> when you're doing less?
>
> That's a rather, um, unusual attitude to have.
>
> Wouldn't you be better off charging a consistent hourly rate for your
> work regardless of the circumstances? If the owner acquires the parts
> then he has spent time that you don't have to, and you get to charge the
> same amount anyway, right? Or do you charge your hourly rate for the time
> you spend acquiring parts in addition to the cost of the parts themselves?
Kevin, you missed the point entirely. This person simply wants less
business and wants more aviators to take up boating or ATVing.
Matt
Kathy Waller
one ????? . I have seen these charts about labor charges for close to
40 years in both hangers and auto shops. You people are far too seious
and have no sense of humor
Honeck
I beg your pardon, but did you READ his subsequent responses?
These posts are the acts of an angry, frustrated man. It may have started
out as "mechanic's humor", but he quickly (and alarmingly) went "over the
top"...
But, I'm sure he could find a job at the FBO here without difficulty...
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Warrior N33431
Kathy Waller wrote in message
<9117-383...@storefull-625.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
jga...@hotmail.com
kbwa...@webtv.net (Kathy Waller) wrote:
> For Piper' Sake, please chill out. Don't you know a joke when you see
> one ????? . I have seen these charts about labor charges for close to
> 40 years in both hangers and auto shops. You people are far too seious
> and have no sense of humor
>
I would tend to agree with you, but given Rick's responses, he
actually appears to take the "joke" seriously.
John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
jga...@hotmail.com
scud...@isomedia.com wrote:
> The fact of the matter is I will recognize you and your kind as soon
as
> you cross the runway threshold.Always looking for something for
nothing,
> the world owes you something.
Who said anything about something for nothing. My A&P/IA encourages
me to do as much work on my plane as possible. For monitoring and
inspecting my work, he charges me his shop rate. When he's not busy
with me, he's making that same shop rate working on someone elses bird.
I don't see the problem (and neither does he). To be perfectly honest,
I have him do most of the work on my plane (no time) and he badgers me
about not doing it myself.
I don't need you
> wasting my time I don't appreciate the attitude of you or your little
> commie buddies and am anything but desparate for your business.You ask
> where my shop is so you can avoid it like the plague,well you will
know
> it when you get there it will be the one closing the hanger doors when
I
> see you coming!
>
This attitude would keep me away from your shop even if I intended to
have no participation in the work. Did you say "commie buddies"!? You
really ought to lighten up a bit. Maybe a nice vacation where there are
no props in sight.
Kathy Waller
trying to say tat it was cheaper to get it done right by a A&P and not
mess with it yourself. My point was that noone lkes to perform in front
of customers who want to interfer and "God Forbid" help.
PS :: Received my Pilot's License in 1965
DOW_9er7Tango
more intimately familiar with your machine, by doing the 'grunt work'
yourself.
I pay by the hour, so if I slow them down, I pay more. Sometimes that is a
real good investment. Another set of eyes can sometimes find minor mistakes
that could easily be overlooked by one person before it turns into a major
deal.
--97T--
Kathy Waller <kbwa...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:9117-383...@storefull-625.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
George R Patterson
>
> > I assume that any shop this desperate for work can't be any good, and I
> > wouldn't take my aircraft there in the first place.
> >
> > George Patterson, N3162Q.
>
> Your Point?
I thought I made my point clearly, but obviously I did not. The shop at
my home base stays quite busy. When an aircraft owner is interested in
doing some of the work on his own aircraft and capable of doing so, they
encourage him or her to do exactly that. They would rather be completing
the annual on the Cessna 201 next door to my Maule than removing the
interior panels from my Maule, even at $50/hr.
Your rate scale clearly shows that you aren't busy enough to allow an
owner to "steal" hours from you - you're desperate for any work you can
get. Clearly, your reputation isn't good enough to keep you busy.
George Patterson, N3162Q.
George R Patterson
>
> You ask
> where my shop is so you can avoid it like the plague,
I didn't ask, and I don't particularly care where it is.
George Patterson, N3162Q.
Rick
My point was I don't want your business or your money.I have an
abundance of clients who don't whine and snivel constantly and bad mouth
mechanics every time they open their mouth.A good portion of them do
much of their own work and in many cases I will sign off their work if
it is done properly and under direct supervision in many cases I don't
even charge for that.However George in all the posts of yours that I
have read I have never seen you say anything constructive.GET A LIFE!
Rick
>
> Rick wrote:
> >
You are absolutly right George you did not ask where my shop was.Your
post was tagged on to one made by another in which he ask where my shop
was and made the comment that he would avoid it like the plaque.As far
as the rest of your comments and mine.OH WELL.We could all probably do a
little better.
Kevin Brown
>For Piper' Sake, please chill out. Don't you know a joke when you see
>one ????? . I have seen these charts about labor charges for close to
>40 years in both hangers and auto shops. You people are far too seious
>and have no sense of humor
When I first read his post, I too figured it was a joke. But his
subsequent posts seem to indicate otherwise.
If he's doing all this to pull an elaborate joke then I must say he
suckered me good! :-)
Kevin Brown
>George R Patterson wrote:
[...]
>> Your rate scale clearly shows that you aren't busy enough to allow an
>> owner to "steal" hours from you - you're desperate for any work you can
>> get. Clearly, your reputation isn't good enough to keep you busy.
>>
>> George Patterson, N3162Q.
>
>My point was I don't want your business or your money.I have an
>abundance of clients who don't whine and snivel constantly and bad mouth
>mechanics every time they open their mouth.A good portion of them do
>much of their own work and in many cases I will sign off their work if
>it is done properly and under direct supervision in many cases I don't
>even charge for that.However George in all the posts of yours that I
>have read I have never seen you say anything constructive.GET A LIFE!
You mean those weren't really your shop rates? :-) :-) :-)
Rick
>
> On Fri, 26 Nov 1999 12:56:45 -0500 (EST), Kathy Waller <kbwa...@webtv.net> wrote:
> >For Piper' Sake, please chill out. Don't you know a joke when you see
> >one ????? . I have seen these charts about labor charges for close to
> >40 years in both hangers and auto shops. You people are far too seious
> >and have no sense of humor
>
> When I first read his post, I too figured it was a joke. But his
> subsequent posts seem to indicate otherwise.
>
> If he's doing all this to pull an elaborate joke then I must say he
>
> --
> Kevin Brown ke...@sysexperts.com
> This is your .signature virus: < begin 644 .signature (9V]T8VAA(0K0z end >
> This is your .signature virus on drugs: <>
> Any questions?
WELL DUH!
George R Patterson
>
> You are absolutly right George you did not ask where my shop was.Your
> post was tagged on to one made by another in which he ask where my shop
> was and made the comment that he would avoid it like the plaque.
Wrong again. My posts on this topic have been mainly in reply to yours,
not other people, and none have contained that line.
George Patterson, N3162Q.
Dick Steel
George here is the post tagged onto the post by Michael by you his
previous post is the one in which he said he would like to know where
my shop is so he could avoid it like the plague.No tell me one more time
the part where you did not hang this post on someone elses.
Rick
>
> Gee, what have I done to this thread?
>
> All I did was question a sometimes practice among owner's of doing the work and
> presuming to get a mech to sign off work, accept responsiblity, and not be paid
> for it.
> I've read alot of these replies and it seems I should've enunciated more and
> added a few factors such as "trust' and relationship" between owners and mechs.
> I sent a post half baked, but you guys (particularly George and Ron) came
> through for me, and added what I forgot to:
> the "working relationship" thing.
> Thanks for filling in that over-all important aspect.
> One thing I've learned posting to these newsgroups is that more often than not,
> I come across BADLY. And not to take this shit personal (shit used loosely
> here).
> I can only hope that those posts I make are sometimes informative and
> hopefully interesting and clear enough to offset those that smell like shit in
> a bouquet of roses.
> I have received e-mails from some chiding me about my alleged "bad attitude"
> and others agreeing, saying they saw where I was coming from (expecting to get
> something for nothing).
> But this resulting "flame war" has really gotten to be too much.
> The level of un-professionalism on some sides is disgusting even me (and I have
> a pretty high threshold).
> Gents, can we agree that all level of constructive conversation has been lost
> at this point?
> It'd make me happy to read pro and con comments over owner maint with A&P sign
> off from owner and mech viewpoints.
> But this crap's got to be put aside. This is bullshit.
>
> Rob the mech
>
I agree completly. And besides I weary of the game. I must however admit
that I haven't had this much fun since my sister went to the outhouse
and the hogs ate her.I QUIT!
TToggir
Kevin Brown
>TToggir wrote:
>>
>> Gee, what have I done to this thread?
>>
>> All I did was question a sometimes practice among owner's of doing the work and
>> presuming to get a mech to sign off work, accept responsiblity, and not be paid
>> for it.
[...]
>> It'd make me happy to read pro and con comments over owner maint with A&P sign
>> off from owner and mech viewpoints.
>> But this crap's got to be put aside. This is bullshit.
>>
>> Rob the mech
>
>I agree completly. And besides I weary of the game. I must however admit
>that I haven't had this much fun since my sister went to the outhouse
>and the hogs ate her.I QUIT!
Heh. I actually think that flamewars generally don't happen as a
result of people actually getting mad at each other, though I'm sure
that happens sometimes. I actually think it's because people enjoy the
rough and tumble of it all. I know I do. :-)
Margy Natalie
Rick wrote:
> George R Patterson wrote:
> >
> > Rick wrote:
> > >
> > > I have no problem with you working under my supervision and signing off
> > > your work if I find it acceptable.My shop rates are as follows:
> > >
> > > $50.00/Hr if I do the work
> > > $100.00/Hr. if you watch
> > > $150.00/Hr. if you help
> > > $200.00/Hr. if you do the work and I watch
> > > $250.00/Hr if you do the work,supply the parts and I watch
> >
> > I assume that any shop this desperate for work can't be any good, and I
> > wouldn't take my aircraft there in the first place.
> >
> > George Patterson, N3162Q.
>
> Your Point?
> The fact of the matter is I will recognize you and your kind as soon as
> you cross the runway threshold.Always looking for something for nothing,
Gee, my mechanic likes it when I come in to work on the plane. I can do all
the "grunt" work and she gets to do all the interesting stuff while I watch and
fetch tools. I get to learn a whole lot more about my airplane and how it
works and she gets all the work on my plane and LOTS of other people waiting to
get in. She always has a full hangar of planes and 2 or 3 on the ramp waiting
to get in, so if I want to pack my own bearings she has NO objections. She
always has a few owners in and around the place. She only jokes about charging
more if you help. Her annuals are flat rate and she figures she comes out
about even. The time she saves because the owner pulls all the plates, etc. is
made up in the time she spends teaching and explaining.
Margy