Flying Club Information
Nicholas Riegel
on how to obtaine my VFC cert with the least amount of $$$. I have been
thinking about joining a flying club. I have a few questions:
What are the positives?
What are the negatives?
Was your experience positive or negative overall? Why?
Were you a member of the flying club while a student pilot? Did you use the
clubs aircraft for flight instruction? What were your experiences as a
student?
How much more cost effective is it than owning an aircraft? (I would love
to hear from those who have a automobile conversion).
Any other info would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you in advance for your response.
David Megginson
> Were you a member of the flying club while a student pilot? Did you use the
> clubs aircraft for flight instruction? What were your experiences as a
> student?
"Flying Club" can mean a lot of different things -- sometimes it's
just a slightly larger partnership, and sometimes, it's a full-fledged
not-for-profit FBO. In Canada, we have a lot of FBO-type flying clubs
dating back to between the late 1920's and WWII. They generally
include a clubhouse with a flying school, a few planes, a fuel
franchise (Esso or Shell usually), and sometimes an attached
maintenance hangar.
Annual dues at my club (http://www.ofc.ca/) are CAD 75.00/year (USD
50.00) for student pilots and CAD 150.00/year (USD 100.00) for
licensed pilots. I belong even though I own an airplane -- I get a
15% discount on maintenance (which alone justifies the membership
fee), discounts on fuel and services (such as preheats and tie-downs),
and free tows and snow removal. I also get a clubhouse full of
instructors and a hangar full of mechanics who can give me free advice
whenever I need it. The club has a fleet of 12 rental aircraft, and I
rented those during my primary training before deciding to buy my own
plane.
On the other hand, I've heard of clubs that are just fancy
partnerships -- each partner pays several hundred dollars per month
plus flying time, plus (often) a very large initiation fee. That
would be an awfully big committment for someone just starting flying.
If you can find a club like mine (i.e. a non-profit FBO), I highly
recommend joining. Don't even think about buying a plane until you
have your license and have had a chance to rent and try out many
different types. Buying probably won't be cheaper than renting, but
you may want to do so anyway -- I have not yet regretted it.
All the best,
David
--
David Megginson, da...@megginson.com, http://www.megginson.com/
Mark Wildman
at less money than I could get from the FBO. Both clubs offered flight
instruction. Both had monthly dues. Joining cost a few thousand dollars
which I got back when I left the club. If someone flew two hours/month they
came out ahead of renting.
"Nicholas Riegel" <naga...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3PadnRZn_N3...@comcast.com...
Paul Tomblin
I belong to the Rochester Flying Club
(http://www.rochesterflyingclub.com/) - I started as a zero time student
pilot, now I'm the secretary as well as designing the club web site.
In a previous article, "Nicholas Riegel" <naga...@hotmail.com> said:
>thinking about joining a flying club. I have a few questions:
>
>What are the positives?
Among the other positives mentioned on the web site:
- well maintained safe IFR aircraft. Much nicer and better maintained
than the local FBOs.
- lower flying cost per hour.
- monthly dues are almost exactly the same cost as a renters insurance
policy.
- Because we're a corporation and you're a shareholder, the insurance
company isn't going to go after you if you crack up the plane
(abrogation).
- contact with other pilots.
>What are the negatives?
- when you're a student pilot, our club only allows you to fly one of our
planes. The day before yesterday, we discovered that plane has 3 of the
four bolts on the landing gear are sheared off and this has caused
damage to the spar, so it's grounded for a few weeks. When I was a
student pilot, the trainer being grounded meant the students were
grounded. Now the policy is to allow them to fly a different plane.
- obviously the monthly fee is a pain unless you fly enough to justify
it, or if you'd normally carry renter's insurance.
>Was your experience positive or negative overall? Why?
Extremely positive.
>Were you a member of the flying club while a student pilot? Did you use the
>clubs aircraft for flight instruction? What were your experiences as a
>student?
Yes, I joined the club with zero time, did all my training in a club
aircraft. The only down side was that the club trainer was grounded twice
for extended periods during my training. Thanks in part to my being on
the board, that policy has been changed. Our club has all similar
aircraft - Warrior, Archers, Dakota and Lance. By training in the
Warrior, I was ready for an easy transition to the higher aircraft when I
was ready.
>How much more cost effective is it than owning an aircraft? (I would love
>to hear from those who have a automobile conversion).
I could never afford to own an aircraft. My wife said "don't bother to
buy an airplane, you'll only lose it in the divorce".
--
Paul Tomblin <ptom...@xcski.com>, not speaking for anybody
Using vi is kind of like having sex. The first time to use it, it's kind
of awkward, but after using for a while you start to get good at it and
enjoy it. -- Eric Merkel
David Megginson
> Yes, I joined the club with zero time, did all my training in a club
> aircraft. The only down side was that the club trainer was grounded
> twice for extended periods during my training. Thanks in part to my
> being on the board, that policy has been changed. Our club has all
> similar aircraft - Warrior, Archers, Dakota and Lance. By training
> in the Warrior, I was ready for an easy transition to the higher
> aircraft when I was ready.
The Ottawa Flying Club is just the opposite: the majority of the fleet
is dedicated to training. The club keeps 5 Cessna 150s, 4 172's, a
Beech Duchess, a 172XP on floats (in the summer), and an Arrow.
Most students stick with the 150s for primary training, but some (like
me, at the time) need a little more cabin space and train in the 172s
ab initio. The club allows members to rent planes for a week or two
for long cross-country trips, but it requires that at least one 172
stay at the club for training, even in the summer.
karel adams
"Nicholas Riegel" <naga...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:3PadnRZn_N3...@comcast.com...
> I do not hold a pilot certification. I am currently researching
information
> on how to obtaine my VFC cert with the least amount of $$$. I have
been
> thinking about joining a flying club. I have a few questions:
Might be worthwhile to mention WHERE you are...
KA (out in the middle of nowhere)
Don
ptom...@xcski.com (Paul Tomblin) wrote in message news:<b5gi5p$et1$1...@allhats.xcski.com>...
Dennis O'Connor
Actually, the conversation in my house, many, many decades ago, went along
the lines of, "If you don't think I should get an airplane, then there is no
point in my gettiing up and going to work."
Took her about 30 milliseconds to parse that statement and decide that
getting the bigger house 'later', was preferable to no house at all, or
divorce, etc... The topic has never been discussed since then...
And yes, she got the big house, later...
Denny
"Don" <quixo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ded74ad3.03032...@posting.google.com...
Jake C.
feasible to purchase a reasonably well equipped 172, incorporate, and
then sell a fixed number of shares. To cover operating expenses and
future maintenance, each share holder would pay a fixed amount per
hour of operations and a yearly amount to cover the fixed costs such
as insurance, hanger fee, and annual inspection. I would expect that
the person who put the deal together could make out rather well by
selling the shares at a price that would ensure his/her portion of the
cost would be covered. Is this how most small flying clubs work?
Does anyone have any experience with this sort of arrangement?
Jake Crause
**Come check out a great new homebuilding forum**
www.homebuiltairplanes.com
C.D.Damron
"Jake C." <nospam...@homebuiltairplanes.com> wrote in message
news:a319067b.03032...@posting.google.com...
> Along the lines of a flying club I've often wondered if it would be
> feasible to purchase a reasonably well equipped 172, incorporate, and
> then sell a fixed number of shares. To cover operating expenses and
> future maintenance, each share holder would pay a fixed amount per
> hour of operations and a yearly amount to cover the fixed costs such
> as insurance, hanger fee, and annual inspection. I would expect that
> the person who put the deal together could make out rather well by
> selling the shares at a price that would ensure his/her portion of the
> cost would be covered. Is this how most small flying clubs work?
> Does anyone have any experience with this sort of arrangement?
When the partnership or corporation includes more than a small number of
people, it becomes less attractive to potential shareholders or partners.
The availability of the aircraft becomes quickly becomes an issue.
With hourly costs and the initial cost of shares, it might be more cost
effective to rent and not be limited to one aircraft with liimited
availability. I don't think I would enter into such a deal with any more
than four people, total.
Rich S.
news:HWHfa.202874$L1.34748@sccrnsc02...
> When the partnership or corporation includes more than a small number of
> people, it becomes less attractive to potential shareholders or partners.
> The availability of the aircraft becomes quickly becomes an issue.
>
> With hourly costs and the initial cost of shares, it might be more cost
> effective to rent and not be limited to one aircraft with liimited
> availability. I don't think I would enter into such a deal with any more
> than four people, total.
Back around 1970 or so, a fellow started up an outfit in Seattle called
"Ple***re Fund" (*name disguised to protect the innocent). He started out
with boats, then added a motorhome or two, brought in aircraft and finally
vacation condominiums.
It worked like this: He formed a corporation to manage the business. I don't
think the corporation owned any of the toys - they were all on lease from
private owners. The owner received a monthly amount from the corporation
plus hourly, daily, or weekly fees. They sold memberships (not stock or
partnerships) in the group. You could join the boating section for $400, the
aircraft section for $400, or the miscellaneous section (motor homes,
condos, etc.) for $400. Or you could buy into all three for $1000.
A boating member could rent an airplane, but he/she could be bumped on a
reservation by an airplane member or a universal member. It worked the other
way for an airplane member reserving a boat. Monthly dues were assessed, and
hourly, daily or weekly rates applied.
All checkout and maintenance was performed by the corporation or contracted
out. All members had to do was rent the toys and call for fuel when they
were done (common courtesy). The corporation had rented hangars and office
space on Boeing Field plus a nice office, maintenance facility, and dock
space on Lake Union - including a beautiful meeting/party room above the
office adequate for a group of 100 or so.
As a flying member, I paid $400 (1970 dollars) to join and ten or fifteen
dollars/month. Sample rates were: C-150 $10 per hobbs hour; wet, C-172 $13;
C-182 $15 (tach time, dry); C-206 $20 hobbs, wet; Mooney Mk. 20 $20, Beech
Debonair $32, Beech Bonanza $35. All the planes were like new and well
maintained. They didn't limit the number of memberships, but when it got too
busy they would add more planes. Reservations were seldom a problem, even
for trips. They required a minimum of two hours per day for overnight
rentals.
We also rented the motorhome on occasion and often took a sail on a 34
footer. We rented the clubroom for a party for Medic One. We were members
for two or three years. One time a member flew a 172 to Ocean Shores with
his wife and another couple. They had a few too many at dinner and then took
off out over the ocean into a low overcast at night. The next of kin sued
the corporation and all the members. One of the members of the flying
section was an attorney and represented the rest of us for a paltry sum. He
got a summary judgment excluding members from the suit as they were NOT
responsible for checkout or maintenance. The corporation prevailed on the
merits of the suit - the guy was drunk.
In short, this was a money-making venture for the principals and a wonderful
place for those members who used the toys say, 5 hours a month. It was much
cheaper than renting outright and there was such a variety of toys to choose
from that I liked it much better than a partnership in one airplane. We had
a newsletter, the bill came once a month, we could go down to the airport at
night and open up the office, check out a plane, and go for a moonlight
flight. It was a booming business.
I took the C-182 for a trip to Mexico and flew it about fifty hours. When I
got back, I tried to give the chief pilot a check for the rental before the
bill came in. He said, "Why don't you hold on to that until the end of the
month?". Okay, I sez, wrinkling my brow in puzzlement. A week later the
doors are locked and the principal dude in the corporation (so I heard) was
on his way to South America. Not satisfied with a roaring business, he
skipped with the cash. (Again, hearsay). I was never able to redeem my
membership card for the $400 I paid, but then there was nobody to give my
check for $750 to, for the rental of the 182.
It was a great idea. It could still work.
Rich S.
Montblack
names....Hmm?? What's a guy to do with some extra cash. Get into horse
racing perhaps?
Montblack
("Rich S." wrote)
<snips>
> "Ple***re Fund" (*name disguised to protect the innocent). He started out
> with boats, then added a motorhome or two, brought in aircraft and finally
> vacation condominiums. <snip>
Rich S.
news:3e7fd7ee$0$83880$a186...@newsreader.visi.com...
> I did a Google search for Ple***re Fund". Found a lot of horse racing
> names....Hmm?? What's a guy to do with some extra cash. Get into horse
> racing perhaps?
This happened long before there was an internet. I doubt that you would find
anything on the web.
Rich S.