Warrior Flight Controls
BBrewer CE
Piper Warrior. In straight and level flight my Warrior's yokes are level but
the right ailaron in relation to the trailing edge of the right flap looks to
be about 1/2" high. I suspect that the right flap is actually about 1/2" low
and It must be costing me a little air speed. Any thoughts?
Bret
CITABRICKR
out of trim condition, which is the only way to straighten out an otherwise
correctly rigged Cherokee. Best bet is to leave it alone, if you rig the flaps
level you'll probably have a heavy wing...still want that 1kt back?
Instructions are in the service manual.
Tom Prevost Jr.
flaps and ailerons. It's not terribly complicated provided you proceed step
by step beginning with rigging the flaps. My advise is to see your
mechanic. I don't think the FAA would consider Flap and Aileron rigging
Preventive maintenance.
Tom Prevost
BBrewer CE <bbre...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991020075807...@ngol03.aol.com...
BBrewer CE
<tpf...@mediaone.net> writes:
>I don't think the FAA would consider Flap and Aileron rigging
>Preventive maintenance.
Thanks Tom, I think I will leave it alone. It is a perfectly stable plane. It
just bothers me to look out and see things not lined up.
Bret
Ron Natalie
If the plane flies straight, "fixing" the flap alignment will most likely
put it out of rig. I don't know about warriors, but on many aircraft,
tweaking the resting position of the flap is a common way of adjusting
roll trim.
less...@aol.com
Find an A/P that knows the PA28 series aircraft very well and ask
him/her to check the rig. I am not an A/P, but I have a Warrior and
have done some research on this topic. It is very common to see
Cherokee's that are out of rig. I have had AI's tell me that half of
the Cherokee's they annual are out of rig when they enter the shop
door. Almost the entire trailing edge of the Cherokee wing is either
flap or aileron, thus an out of rig condition grossly modifies the
effective camber of the wing. I read through my AI's service manual
while he was rigging my airplane just after it came from the paint
shop. The steps, as best I remember them, are as follows: 1) Ensure
the flaps are retracted, 2) use the straight edge described in the
service manual (it is of an exact length with a spacer the exact
distance from the trailing edge of the flaps to the rear spar of the
wing) to check the camber of the flaps at the outboard edge of the
flaps. One end of the straight edge is lined up with the trailing edge
of the flaps. The other end rests against the underside of the wing.
The spacer (of known height) should just touch the rear spar. If the
three points do not touch correctly, the flaps are adjusted. With the
flaps set correctly, the inboard edge of one aileron is lined up
exactly with the outboard edge of the flap. The other aileron should
also line up with the flap.
Things to remember: 1) The dimensions of the straight edge are
critical, 2) As someone else pointed out, this is not preventative
maintenance.
--
Les Sparks
less...@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/lessparks/
http://members.aol.com/woodglider/
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Walker Mangum
rigging tool, but the service manual shows you how to make one -- very
simple to make, essentially requires only a piece of aluminum barstock,
a machine screw, a screw tap, and about 10 minutes of your time.
After checking the static rigging, the service manual tells you to
adjust roll trim by adjusting the flap on the side of the heavy wing
downward. It IS important that the overall trim be close to correct --
out of trim results in a noticable performance loss.
1/2" of difference between the aileron and flap sounds high to me. Odds
are that, over the life of the airplane, flaps and ailerons have been on
and off enough that the control system has actually lost its rigging.
You can make it fly level with just the rudder trim, but if you are
counteracting out-of-rig ailerons and flaps, then you are giving up some
speed.
--
Walker Mangum
Houston, TX
Ron Natalie
Walker Mangum wrote:
> 1/2" of difference between the aileron and flap sounds high to me. Odds
> are that, over the life of the airplane, flaps and ailerons have been on
> and off enough that the control system has actually lost its rigging.
>
Either that or the rest of the thing was so out of rig, this is
how much someone had to adjust the flap to get it to fly right.
Walker Mangum
> Either that or the rest of the thing was so out of rig, this is
> how much someone had to adjust the flap to get it to fly right.
Could be true. A previous A&P "adjusted" the rigging on my Cherokee Six
without using a rigging tool. A few months ago, I decided to check my
rigging, so I made the proper rigging tool per the maintenance manual.
When I then checked with the tool, not one of the flaps or ailerons were
anywhere near correct.
It took about 30 minutes with the rigging tool to correct the trim.
Mark McDougle
wrote:
snip
>It took about 30 minutes with the rigging tool to correct the trim.
The rigging tool isn't normally used to "correct the trim". As
indicated by others, it is used to initially rig the flaps.
Dropping a flap is indeed how you "correct the trim" on a low-wing
Piper.
BTW on most Cherokee's aileron rigging has nuthin' to do with hands-
off ball-centered level flight.
Mark
Mark McDougle
ma...@bright.net
http://www.bright.net/~markm/
Dane Spearing
>BTW on most Cherokee's aileron rigging has nuthin' to do with hands-
>off ball-centered level flight.
?!? Okay, I'll show my naievete here - what does it have to do with?
I've actually been reading this thread with a great deal of interest
as my Cherokee has a moderately pronounced tendency to roll right
when I take my hand off the yoke.
If it ain't the rigging that I need to adjust to allow for hands-off
level flight, then what do I need to do?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
| Dane Spearing
_____(o)_____ PA-28-180D, N6328J
o O o KLAM, Los Alamos, NM
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mark McDougle
snip
>If it ain't the rigging that I need to adjust to allow for hands-off
>level flight, then what do I need to do?
>
Get educated or hire somebody that is.
sig snip
Ailerons on a Cherokee will move by themselves to a position where the
forces upon them are equalized. They are interconnected, with no
"centering" mechanism (except for a couple of "odd" years).
The airplane really doesn't care whether the yoke is centered, or if
the travels are correct. Both slightly up, or both slightly down
really doesn't change things either.
Reece Pollack
>On 27 Oct 1999 18:27:08 GMT, Dane Spearing <da...@lanl.gov> wrote:
>
>snip
>>If it ain't the rigging that I need to adjust to allow for hands-off
>>level flight, then what do I need to do?
>>
>Get educated or hire somebody that is.
How about just reading the post instead of being snide?
>Ailerons on a Cherokee will move by themselves to a position where the
>forces upon them are equalized. They are interconnected, with no
>"centering" mechanism (except for a couple of "odd" years).
Which has nothing to do with rigging. Do you even know what rigging
involves?
>The airplane really doesn't care whether the yoke is centered, or if
>the travels are correct. Both slightly up, or both slightly down
>really doesn't change things either.
The question is not "is the yoke centered" but "why does the plane roll
when the yoke is released?" If the plane is in lateral balance and the ball
is centered, then releasing the yoke should result in level flight. If the
plane rolls off to one side, then the rigging should be checked. One of the
flaps may be lower than the other, or the airframe may not be square with
the wings.
There are a multitude of causes, and mis-rigging is one of them.
--
Reece R. Pollack
CP-ASMEL-IA -- N1707H Piper Arrow III (based KGAI)
Walker Mangum
> How about just reading the post instead of being snide?
Aint't that the truth.
> There are a multitude of causes, and mis-rigging is one of them.
Another item that is frequently overlooked on Cherokees is nosewheel
alignment, particularly if you have a fairing on the nosewheel.
Misalignment will cost a little bit of performance. Again, it is fairly
simple to adjust (if the airplane is up on jacks). The maintenance
manual details the procedure, which, essentially, is just adjust the
balljoint rod ends that control the nosewheel steering until the
nosewheel is centered when the rudder is centered.
Also, ball-centered does not necessarily indicate proper lateral trim --
only that the wings are level in non-accelerating (non-turning) flight.
If the airplane is out of trim, it can still be trimmed to fly without
turning with the ball centered. In this condition, it will be flying in
a slight skid to one side or the other. If the wings are level and the
airplane is not turning, the ball will be centered even though the
airplane is skidding, and there can be a significant performance loss.
--
Walker Mangum
PA32-300 N44601
Houston, TX (EFD)
Mark McDougle
wrote:
>On Thu, 28 Oct 1999 03:11:47 GMT, ma...@bright.net (Mark McDougle) wrote:
>
snip
>How about just reading the post instead of being snide?
WTF are you referring to?
>
>>Ailerons on a Cherokee will move by themselves to a position where the
>>forces upon them are equalized. They are interconnected, with no
>>"centering" mechanism (except for a couple of "odd" years).
>
>Which has nothing to do with rigging. Do you even know what rigging
>involves?
Again, please clarify. I have stated that this has nothing to do with
"trimming" for straight and level flight. If you are flying a Warrior
with Frise (spelling?) ailerons and centering springs, the ailerons
can indeed affect the roll trim.
Do you "even know" that "rigging" and "trimming" are related, but NOT
interchangeable. Rigging involves ensuring that the primary and
secondary control surface "neutral" positions and travel ranges are
proper along with aligning all the related components properly, this
typically includes proper cable tension. Trimming usually is an
attempt to keep the aircraft upright while rummaging for charts. It
is typically accomplished by artificially displacing a primary or
secondary control surface from its proper "neutral" position. This is
normally accomplished to overcome changes in weight/moment, or
airframes that are not "perfect".
An aircraft can be rigged properly, and be "out of trim"; or it can be
"trimmed perfectly" and rigged for crap.
Do you know what rigging involves beyond reading the manual? Or
Usenet? I guess the "snide" rule doesn't apply.
>
>>The airplane really doesn't care whether the yoke is centered, or if
>>the travels are correct. Both slightly up, or both slightly down
>>really doesn't change things either.
>
>The question is not "is the yoke centered" but "why does the plane roll
>when the yoke is released?" If the plane is in lateral balance and the ball
>is centered, then releasing the yoke should result in level flight. If the
>plane rolls off to one side, then the rigging should be checked. One of the
>flaps may be lower than the other, or the airframe may not be square with
>the wings.
>
>There are a multitude of causes, and mis-rigging is one of them.
Tell me all about the questions and the answers. If I'm not mistaken,
the beginning of the this thread was the aileron not matching the
flap. The first reply I saw was right on the money (you drop a flap
on a 28 to trim it), the original poster admitted that the plane in
question flew just fine. Then things went a little wonky.
I repeat, unless it is an original Warrior, there is not one darn
thing that you can do to the aileron "rigging" on a 28 to change the
roll "trim" one bit.
One of the flaps IS most likely lower than the other slightly
(referring again to the original post), THAT IS HOW YOU PROPERLY "
RIG" THE AIRPLANE FOR ROLL "TRIM".
I thought I had made it clear, I'm very sorry if I didn't.
Mark McDougle
wrote:
snip
Does any of this have anything to do with the fact that the only means
available to correct the roll trim on a Cherokee is to drop a flap?
Or that the aileron rigging has virtually no bearing on this
whatsoever?
I'm sorry, but I'm not intelligent to understand how you can set up an
aircraft that will hold a constant heading, wings level, ball
centered, hands off with it being "out of trim" or "skidding". That's
not your fault, but mine.
If you think that "rigging" a Cherokee (28 or 32) following the
service manual to the letter is going to make it be "trimmed"
properly, I can assure you that 3 out of 4 times you are going to be
incorrect. But why should I let experience interfere with theory or a
good story.
Lynn Hall
I had "the rigging adjusted" three times on my 180 Cherokee over the last
two years.
The first time made a terrific improvement and I was happy for months. I
hardly had any left rudder and cross wind landings were a bit tricky. I
didn't know there was a problem untill an instructor was flying her one day
and pointed the problem out. Of course after the problem was pointed out, I
started to obsess on it. The rudder worked much better after adjustment,
but I was left with a heavy right wing.
The second adjustment really helped the heavy right wing, but I still had a
slow sink to the right. So I'd always burn the right fuel tank first to
improve balance. Sometime I'd hold a little rudder, but that cause a slight
skid.
Finially I decided to give it one more try. This time she came out just
right. I just didn't know how much to expect, now I can tell you that if
everything is correct or at least in balance the plane should track stright
and level. So I'm guessing there is a little bit of an art to balancing the
controls on an airplane and it might take several attempts to get it set
correctly.
Best of luck,
Lynn
Dane Spearing <da...@lanl.gov> wrote in message
news:7v7g5s$8d3$1...@newshost.lanl.gov...
> Mark McDougle, ma...@bright.net writes:
> >BTW on most Cherokee's aileron rigging has nuthin' to do with hands-
> >off ball-centered level flight.
>
> ?!? Okay, I'll show my naievete here - what does it have to do with?
>
> I've actually been reading this thread with a great deal of interest
> as my Cherokee has a moderately pronounced tendency to roll right
> when I take my hand off the yoke.
>
> If it ain't the rigging that I need to adjust to allow for hands-off
> level flight, then what do I need to do?
>
Ron Natalie
Mark McDougle wrote:
>
>
> An aircraft can be rigged properly, and be "out of trim"; or it can be
> "trimmed perfectly" and rigged for crap.
>
But they are intertwingled. An out of rig can adversely affect the
trim and if you try to correct an out of rig problem by making trim
adjustments you're just adding drag to the system.