Airliners land at uncontrolled airport?

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Ralph Ricks

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Dec 10, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/10/95
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In <4aebhr$3...@agate.berkeley.edu> ma...@po.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Masayuki
Karahashi) writes:
>
>I just read the article titled "Straight-in Approaches" (p.114) in the
>Dec. AOPA magazine, and from that found out that major airliners use
>uncontrolled airports also....
>What's the general public's thoughts on that anyway?...

We have a perception problem here.

Some airports have towers: the rest are PILOT controlled.

Ralph
"Close the tower, and we can ALL fly."
anon.

broomstick

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Dec 10, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/10/95
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In article <4aebhr$3...@agate.berkeley.edu> ma...@po.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Masayuki Karahashi) writes:
>From: ma...@po.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Masayuki Karahashi)
>Subject: Airliners land at uncontrolled airport?
>Date: 10 Dec 1995 10:07:55 GMT

>I just read the article titled "Straight-in Approaches" (p.114) in the
>Dec. AOPA magazine, and from that found out that major airliners use

>uncontrolled airports also. Was kind of a surprise to me since I
>always related uncontrolled airports with 50x2000 foot runways (yeah
>yeah, major stereotyping there ;)

>Just out of curiosity, I couldn't imagine a lot of places like that,
>but are there many? This article mentions a Alaska 737 landing at
>Ralpth Wien Memorial Arpt in Kotzebue, Alaska.

>What's the general public's thoughts on that anyway? I remember there
>was a time when some big airport had a radar failure or the controller
>was asleep (or something like that), and the airliners basically
>treated the airport as a uncontrolled field, announcing positions and
>intentions on the tower frequency. Sounds to me pretty safe, but the
>news and the public went bezerk about it.

Told some friends once that the airport I fly out of doesn't have a tower.
They were shocked "HOW do you do that? Isn't that DANGEROUS?" etc., etc.,

Easy answer: "How do you get on and off the freeway at rush hour without a
tower? You got rules about right-of-way, everyone follows them, keep your
eyes open, and use your brain."

Reaction: "Oh...... never thought about it that way before."

The general public doesn't understand flying. All they hear about it
(assuming they don't know any pilots personally) are breathless talking heads
on the TV describing the latest disaster or (supposed) near-disaster. Of
COURSE they fear it! They think the ATC is their only safety and the pilots
are all mindless robots.

Although I haven't had the experience of an ATC asleep on the job seems to me
(correct me if I'm wrong, more experienced folks) that situation is somewhat
like having a traffic light go out at a busy intersection. Everyone gets more
cautious and takes turns.

Although I must say the notion that a jet might choose to land at an
uncontrolled field I'm using, that one day I might look back and see one
coming up from behind, DOES give me the willies. But given the number of
large airports in my neck of the woods (Chicago) I'd suspect they'd more
likely be diverted to another airport with a tower.

Another post pointed out that there are two kinds of airport - tower
controlled and PILOT controlled. Certainly sounds better than uncontrolled!
Anybody else want to start using the term "pilot controlled"?

============================================================================
>---Broomstick--- | My opinion - never humble
============================================================================


Roy Smith

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Dec 10, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/10/95
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brum...@interaccess.com (broomstick) writes:
> Although I must say the notion that a jet might choose to land at an
> uncontrolled field I'm using, that one day I might look back and see one
> coming up from behind, DOES give me the willies.

Westchester Tower closes at 11 PM. I believe there are a few scheduled
airline flights that come in later than that.

--
Roy Smith <r...@nyu.edu>
Hippocrates Project, Department of Microbiology, Coles 202
NYU School of Medicine, 550 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016
"This never happened to Bart Simpson."

Masayuki Karahashi

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Dec 10, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/10/95
to
I just read the article titled "Straight-in Approaches" (p.114) in the
Dec. AOPA magazine, and from that found out that major airliners use
uncontrolled airports also. Was kind of a surprise to me since I
always related uncontrolled airports with 50x2000 foot runways (yeah
yeah, major stereotyping there ;)

Just out of curiosity, I couldn't imagine a lot of places like that,
but are there many? This article mentions a Alaska 737 landing at
Ralpth Wien Memorial Arpt in Kotzebue, Alaska.

What's the general public's thoughts on that anyway? I remember there
was a time when some big airport had a radar failure or the controller
was asleep (or something like that), and the airliners basically
treated the airport as a uncontrolled field, announcing positions and
intentions on the tower frequency. Sounds to me pretty safe, but the

news and the public went bezerk about it. :(

---Masa


--
--- MASAYUKI KARAHASHI --- MASAYUKI KARAHASHI --- MASAYUKI KARAHASHI ---
Private Pilot - ASEL | |
ma...@cs.berkeley.edu / ma...@informix.com
"I think its time to go back to work.... what work?" (^_^) \_____/

COGO1

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Dec 10, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/10/95
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Pilot controlled works well for me.

Ray

Eric Rood

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Dec 10, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/10/95
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As long as the airline has a certified weather observer and can provide
the Part 107 security requirements, Part 150 airport standards applicable
to their operation, they can operate wherever they wish. Eric.
--
Eric Rood
eric...@freenet.columbus.oh.us

Jim Wolper

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Dec 11, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/11/95
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Jackson Hole, WY, is an uncontrolled field with extensive
airline traffic. It shares the CTAF (122.8) with one
of our "local" uncontrolled fields. My students like it
when they hear "Jackson traffic, Delta 1521 is a 737 on a high
left downwind for runway 18, Jackson". And the airliners
_always_ use proper phraseology!
--
Jim Wolper CFII
Department of Mathematics <email: wol...@pequod.isu.edu>
Idaho State University
Pocatello, ID 83209-8085 USA

Bruce Bostwick

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Dec 11, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/11/95
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co...@aol.com (COGO1) wrote:
> Pilot controlled works well for me.

got to admit it sounds a lot more reassuring! ;-)

--------------------------------------------------------
dialogue between student and instructor:

Student: <releases controls> "God has the airplane!"
Instructor: <grabs controls> "No, *I* have the airplane."

;-) <BGB> http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~lihan/

Jim Tilbey

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Dec 12, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/12/95
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In message <4ag9r3$d...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
co...@aol.com (COGO1) writes:

> Pilot controlled works well for me.

> Ray

As a controller at a small regional airport in the UK I must agree
with you, our busiest day of the week is Sunday when we are shut!

Jim


Jim Tilbey

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Dec 12, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/12/95
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In message <4agbqb$d...@acme.freenet.columbus.oh.us>
eric...@freenet.columbus.oh.us (Eric Rood) writes:

Just out of interest do they still require the airport fire fighting
and rescue services to be available, or do you just have to sit and
wait for the services to arrive from town?

Jim


Jim Carson

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Dec 12, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/12/95
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In a previous article, ma...@po.EECS.Berkeley.EDU wrote:
>Dec. AOPA magazine, and from that found out that major airliners use
>uncontrolled airports also. Was kind of a surprise to me since I
>always related uncontrolled airports with 50x2000 foot runways (yeah
>yeah, major stereotyping there ;)
>Just out of curiosity, I couldn't imagine a lot of places like that,
>but are there many?

A couple of weeks ago I watched an ATR Commander (owned by Continental)
land at Austin Executive, 3R3, for radio work, and while this is not an
every day occurrence, it apparently happens once or twice a week. [3R3
is a 5000'x75' runway, uncontrolled, but under the Class-C veil of AUS.]

Except for it being noisy, I don't have a problem with it.

An analogy: I was planning a bicycle trip in the Pacific Northwest and
had some concerns about the big logging trucks: They're big and metal and
noisy, I'm not. After I had been riding a while, I realized that the guys
driving them were professionals, giving me a wide berth when they could
because they knew how the vehicle performed, and what I *really* had to
worry about were the folks in recreational vehicles, many for the first
time.

Similarly, someone who has thousands of hours landing at 3R3 concerns me
far less than some of my fellow students.

>Sounds to me pretty safe, but the news and the public went bezerk about it. :(

The public goes berzerk about the Internet, too :-)
--
Jim Carson (jca...@tivoli.com)

Vote Picard/Riker '96, leadership for the next generation

Klein Gilhousen

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Dec 13, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/13/95
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In article <4ak523$7...@tivoli.tivoli.com>,

Jim Carson <jca...@tivoli.com> wrote:
>In a previous article, ma...@po.EECS.Berkeley.EDU wrote:
>>Dec. AOPA magazine, and from that found out that major airliners use
>>uncontrolled airports also. Was kind of a surprise to me since I
>>always related uncontrolled airports with 50x2000 foot runways (yeah
>>yeah, major stereotyping there ;)
>>Just out of curiosity, I couldn't imagine a lot of places like that,
>>but are there many?
>
>A couple of weeks ago I watched an ATR Commander (owned by Continental)
>land at Austin Executive, 3R3, for radio work, and while this is not an
>every day occurrence, it apparently happens once or twice a week. [3R3
>is a 5000'x75' runway, uncontrolled, but under the Class-C veil of AUS.]
>
This shouldn't surprise you too much. My home airport, Bozeman, MT has
about eight flights a day by 727's, 737's, MD-80's etc and about half a dozen
flights a day by turboprop commuters. We have a 9000x150 main runway,
no radar coverage below 12000 feet and no control tower. And lots of
general aviation traffic. No big deal. We do have a Flight Service
Station on the field but they don't control anything, just give advisories.

Klein Gilhousen
Golden Eagle N421KG
Yak-55M N41126

Mike Mladejovsky

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Dec 14, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/14/95
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In article <4aebhr$3...@agate.berkeley.edu>, ma...@po.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Masayuki Karahashi) writes:
>I just read the article titled "Straight-in Approaches" (p.114) in the
>Dec. AOPA magazine, and from that found out that major airliners use
>uncontrolled airports also. Was kind of a surprise to me since I
>always related uncontrolled airports with 50x2000 foot runways (yeah
>yeah, major stereotyping there ;)
>
>Just out of curiosity, I couldn't imagine a lot of places like that,
>but are there many? This article mentions a Alaska 737 landing at
>Ralpth Wien Memorial Arpt in Kotzebue, Alaska.

Places like that where I have landed recently include:

Cedar City, St. George, Canyonlands, Vernal, Wendover, UT
Page, AZ
Hayden, Durango, Montrose, Cortez, CO
Elko, Mesquite, NV
Jackson Hole, WY

I have shared the pattern with 727, 737, DC-9, MD-80, Metroliner, and
Brazilias...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Mladejovsky, Phd PPsel
University of Utah, Center for Engineering Design, Salt Lake City, Utah
Ham Radio: WA7ARK Civil Air Patrol: Uncle Mike 41 Skylane N3453R
Opinions mine, not CED's

CVerbil

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Dec 17, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/17/95
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Careful, Michael...Elko has a tower.

(Within the last year.)

chris

Curtis Wheeler

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Dec 19, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/19/95
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cve...@aol.com (CVerbil) wrote:
>
> Careful, Michael...Elko has a tower.
>
> (Within the last year.)

Doesn't Elko tower run a very limited schedule? Like 9-5 M-F???
I have never landed there - but I remember noticing something about
schedule when I flew in the vanicity on my way to SLC. Like it was
2 PM and the tower was closed.

--
Curtis G. Wheeler - Pleasanton, CA

Thomas Spatzek

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Dec 20, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/20/95
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r...@mchip00.med.nyu.edu (Roy Smith) wrote:


As an ATC myself I can say that I find it a lot safer to have an
airlinepilot with thousands of hours logged, and lots of experience
landing at an uncontrolled airfield, rather than all the VFR pilots
out there trying to get there 15 hrs logged to keep the certificate.
And don't think that just because all airlinepilots allways fly IFR,
they never look up from their instruments... My experience tells me
that VFR seldom spot the IFR's before, the airlinepilot reports the
much smaller aircraft in sight.

Well hope it'll calm you down to know that they are as afraid of you
as you are of them....


Ron Natalie

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Dec 20, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/20/95
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Glenn Johnson (klei...@maroon.tc.umn.edu) wrote:

: AMEN! I don't know what I was doing before TCAS came out. I can't
: count the number of times it saved us at some of the uncontrolled
: fields. Don't get me wrong though, most of the VFR guys do a fine job
: in the pattern, and , in most instances, go out of their way to give
: us the room we need to land. However, there is always the guy
: exercising all of his rights to fly without a transponder or radio.

Of course, the guy flying without a transponder isn't going to trip
your TCAS either.


Craig Wall

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Dec 20, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/20/95
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In article <DJwIC...@news.cis.umn.edu>, klei...@maroon.tc.umn.edu says...

>We can all get along fine if we follow the FAA's guidlines of "see and
>avoid." Keeping your head out of the cockpit is the name of the game!



...truer words were never spoken...


Craig (..glider pilot..) Wall

Sylvain Louboutin

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Dec 20, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/20/95
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ccc...@vip.cybercity.dk (Thomas Spatzek) writes:

>As an ATC myself I can say that I find it a lot safer to have an
>airlinepilot with thousands of hours logged, and lots of experience
>landing at an uncontrolled airfield, rather than all the VFR pilots
>out there trying to get there 15 hrs logged to keep the certificate.

as a quick reminder, air space belongs as much to the low time vfr
pilots as to the commercial compagnies... more and more it seems that GA
pilots can at best hope to be `tolerated' up there and that the only
ones with a legitimate claim to fly are the big iron. think again.

--
%% Sylvain....@dsg.cs.tcd.ie http://www.dsg.cs.tcd.ie/~sloubtin/
%% Distributed Systems Group, (O'Reilly Institute, room F.35)
%% Department of Computer Science, phone: (+353-88) 527790
%% Trinity College, Dublin 2, -Ireland- fax: (+353-1) 6772204

Glenn Johnson

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Dec 20, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/20/95
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ccc...@vip.cybercity.dk (Thomas Spatzek) wrote:

>r...@mchip00.med.nyu.edu (Roy Smith) wrote:

>>brum...@interaccess.com (broomstick) writes:
>>> Although I must say the notion that a jet might choose to land at an
>>> uncontrolled field I'm using, that one day I might look back and see one
>>> coming up from behind, DOES give me the willies.

>>Westchester Tower closes at 11 PM. I believe there are a few scheduled
>>airline flights that come in later than that.

>>--
>>Roy Smith <r...@nyu.edu>
>>Hippocrates Project, Department of Microbiology, Coles 202
>>NYU School of Medicine, 550 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016
>>"This never happened to Bart Simpson."

>As an ATC myself I can say that I find it a lot safer to have an
>airlinepilot with thousands of hours logged, and lots of experience
>landing at an uncontrolled airfield, rather than all the VFR pilots
>out there trying to get there 15 hrs logged to keep the certificate.

>And don't think that just because all airlinepilots allways fly IFR,
>they never look up from their instruments... My experience tells me
>that VFR seldom spot the IFR's before, the airlinepilot reports the
>much smaller aircraft in sight.

>Well hope it'll calm you down to know that they are as afraid of you
>as you are of them....

AMEN! I don't know what I was doing before TCAS came out. I can't


count the number of times it saved us at some of the uncontrolled
fields. Don't get me wrong though, most of the VFR guys do a fine job
in the pattern, and , in most instances, go out of their way to give
us the room we need to land. However, there is always the guy
exercising all of his rights to fly without a transponder or radio.

This is where good judgement and extreme vigilance come into play. We


can all get along fine if we follow the FAA's guidlines of "see and
avoid." Keeping your head out of the cockpit is the name of the game!

It's what we, as airline pilots, practice and is what may save your
hyde some day.


klei...@maroon.tc.umn.edu
ATP
CFI A-I-M
ATCS

------------------------------------------------------------
"You can never have too much fuel, unless you're on fire..."
Anon.


CVerbil

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Dec 20, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/20/95
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The Elko tower (for those that asked and still care) is open until 10 or
11 PM local...I know this because I had to get there last month, my ETA
was literally on the hour of closing, and the field is NOTAM'ed closed
when the tower is closed.

cv

dshirsh

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Dec 21, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/21/95
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Sometimes an airport becomes uncontrolled through no fault of its own...

Remember a few years back when a Delta flight was attempting to land at
West Palm Beach late at night and the controller was ASLEEP ???
The flight landed safely but I never found out what happened to the
controller.
--
David Hirsh
Pittsburgh,PA
dsh...@telerama.lm.com

klei...@maroon.tc.umn.edu

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Dec 21, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/21/95
to

>Glenn Johnson (klei...@maroon.tc.umn.edu) wrote:

>: AMEN! I don't know what I was doing before TCAS came out. I can't


>: count the number of times it saved us at some of the uncontrolled
>: fields. Don't get me wrong though, most of the VFR guys do a fine job
>: in the pattern, and , in most instances, go out of their way to give
>: us the room we need to land. However, there is always the guy
>: exercising all of his rights to fly without a transponder or radio.

r...@topaz.sensor.com (Ron Natalie) wrote:

>Of course, the guy flying without a transponder isn't going to trip
>your TCAS either.

Agreed. That's why I think "see and avoid" is the best policy in
these situations. TCAS, in certain instances, is just one more set of
eyes watching out for you. Hopefully both pilots keep their
respective "heads out the window" in cases where TCAS can't be of
assistance :-)

G. Johnson

John Rice

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Dec 21, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/21/95
to
In article <4b9kkv$q...@wilde.cs.tcd.ie>, slou...@news.cs.tcd.ie (Sylvain Louboutin) writes:
>
>>As an ATC myself I can say that I find it a lot safer to have an
>>airlinepilot with thousands of hours logged, and lots of experience
>>landing at an uncontrolled airfield, rather than all the VFR pilots
>>out there trying to get there 15 hrs logged to keep the certificate.

Are you kidding ? Most 'Big Iron' pilots came out of the military.
They're used to OWNING the airspace that they fly in. They aren't
trained to fly in uncontrolled airspace. They want to land 'straight in'
and 'everybody get out of MY way'. 'Pattern ' ? What's a pattern ? I've
seen too many of them assume that because ATC 'cleared' them for the
'visual' to an uncontrolled field, that they're clear of traffic and
have uncontested right to come straight down the pipe and land,
regardless of who's in the pattern, where.

These people ARE NOT more safe, under these conditions. As for your
argument that these people have 'lots of experience' landing at
uncontrolled fields, you're wrong. Their experience might be limited to
one 'uncontroled field' landing per 'few hundred' landings, where the
other aircraft landing/taking off at the uncontrolled field probably
have just the opposite and are much better trained/practiced at
'uncontrolled field' operations than the commercial pilot ever was.

As an ATC you have NO experience in this area, since by definition these
fields are UNCONTROLLED. Speak about something you 'know' not something
you 'assume'.

------
John Rice __|__ K9IJ | ri...@ttd.teradyne.com
________(*)________ |
o/ \o |
Private Pilot : ASEL, AMEL, IA | "I speak for myself, not my employer".


John C. Dunbar

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Dec 22, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/22/95
to
ri...@ttd.teradyne.com (John Rice) wrote:
>
> In article <4b9kkv$q...@wilde.cs.tcd.ie>, slou...@news.cs.tcd.ie (Sylvain Louboutin) writes:
> >
> >>As an ATC myself I can say that I find it a lot safer to have an
> >>airlinepilot with thousands of hours logged, and lots of experience
> >>landing at an uncontrolled airfield, rather than all the VFR pilots
> >>out there trying to get there 15 hrs logged to keep the certificate.
>
> Are you kidding ? Most 'Big Iron' pilots came out of the military.
> They're used to OWNING the airspace that they fly in. They aren't
> trained to fly in uncontrolled airspace. They want to land 'straight in'
> and 'everybody get out of MY way'. 'Pattern ' ? What's a pattern ?

Excuse me, sir, but can you please explain to me how a DC-8 (or even a
Boeing 737) that falls out of the sky at 120 knots fits into a 1000 foot
AGL pattern at the typical general aviation airport? And can you imagine
a DC-8 following a Cessna 152 downwind at 80 knots? Please give us a break.

<SNIP>


> As an ATC you have NO experience in this area, since by definition these
> fields are UNCONTROLLED. Speak about something you 'know' not something
> you 'assume'.
>
> ------
> John Rice __|__ K9IJ | ri...@ttd.teradyne.com
> ________(*)________ |
> o/ \o |
> Private Pilot : ASEL, AMEL, IA | "I speak for myself, not my employer"

I suggest you take some of your own advice, Mr. Rice. I see that you are a
private pilot. How can you possibly be qualified to pass judgement on
airline pilots with thousands of hours more experience than you?

Respectfully,

Captain John C. Dunbar
(LAX)
DC-8, B-727, B-737, DC-9

Jack

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Dec 22, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/22/95
to

>I suggest you take some of your own advice, Mr. Rice. I see that you are a
>private pilot. How can you possibly be qualified to pass judgement on
>airline pilots with thousands of hours more experience than you?

>Respectfully,

>Captain John C. Dunbar
>(LAX)
>DC-8, B-727, B-737, DC-9

Tell em' John....Give em hell!..Jack /Atlanta


Chris Holmes

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Dec 22, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/22/95
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In article <1995Dec21...@ttd.teradyne.com>, ri...@ttd.teradyne.com
(John Rice) wrote:

> Are you kidding ? Most 'Big Iron' pilots came out of the military.
> They're used to OWNING the airspace that they fly in. They aren't
> trained to fly in uncontrolled airspace. They want to land 'straight in'

> and 'everybody get out of MY way'. 'Pattern ' ? What's a pattern ? I've
> seen too many of them assume that because ATC 'cleared' them for the
> 'visual' to an uncontrolled field, that they're clear of traffic and
> have uncontested right to come straight down the pipe and land,
> regardless of who's in the pattern, where.
> These people ARE NOT more safe, under these conditions. As for your
> argument that these people have 'lots of experience' landing at
> uncontrolled fields, you're wrong. Their experience might be limited to
> one 'uncontroled field' landing per 'few hundred' landings, where the
> other aircraft landing/taking off at the uncontrolled field probably
> have just the opposite and are much better trained/practiced at
> 'uncontrolled field' operations than the commercial pilot ever was.

That's quite a generalization you're making there. Yes, many pilots come
from the military, but I would suggest that at least as many come from
bush flying and other similar backgrounds. These pilots generally have
thousands of hours flying the light stuff (cessnas, etc) into uncontrolled
strips. That alone would give them more experience than most folks reading
this newsgroup.

How would you recommend these heavies plan their approach? They're not as
maneoverable as your little Cessna. Their size and speed makes entering
the traffic pattern impossible. Straight in is pretty much the only option
they have.

Merry Christmas!

--
Chris Holmes
cho...@portal.ca
Vancouver, BC

dave_sutton

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Dec 22, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/22/95
to
Sounds like a very angry man.

In my profession, such obvious hostility would be cause for the
flight surgeon to ground me.


"Don't ask a man if he is a Fighter Pilot.
If he is, He'll let you know.
If he isn't, don't embarass him"

Capt. Dave

dave_sutton

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Dec 22, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/22/95
to
Amen. Maybe these guys don't realize what experience level it takes to sit in the big chair.
Pretty funny arguement coming from a private pilot.
I'm always scared down in "Indian Country", what with all of the Warriors, Cherokees,
Navajo's, not to mention Arrows flying around. Many Private Pilots are competent.
Many are not. Some are unpredictable in the pattern. Some are just lousy.
Yes, we operate LOTS into uncontrolled fields.
We ALWAYS make 45 degree entries into downwind, 1500 AGL, and self-announce,
as per guidance in the AIM.
Wish I had a buck for every time I've been cut off by a lightplane entering straight onto
the base or final just to shave a minute off.

So who's unsafe?

Capt. David Sutton, ATP, CFII-MEI(A)
Typed Rated in Gulfstream, Hawker, Lear, Citation, Shorts, DeHavilland DHC-8, Fokker-27
Letter of Authorization in MiG-15, MiG-17, MiG-21, Fouga Magister CM-170
(Not to mention about 5000 hours in Cessna's and Pipers)


But what do we know anyway.........................


Jim Wolper

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Dec 22, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/22/95
to
John Rice wrote:
>Are you kidding ? Most 'Big Iron' pilots came out of the military.
>They're used to OWNING the airspace that they fly in. They aren't
>trained to fly in uncontrolled airspace. They want to land 'straight in'
>and 'everybody get out of MY way'. 'Pattern ' ? What's a pattern ?

I disagree on several points. First, most airline new hires these days
are non-military, as reported in Flying, Flight Training, and
other sources. Second, military pilots generally _do_
fly a pattern, known as the "break", which is an effective way
of reducing speed from cruise (or near-cruise) to landing
speed. Also, most military pilots were trained in a high-traffic
environment where "head on a swivel" was the only way to
avoid mid-airs in the pattern. And, of course, military
pilots are trained to look out for and track that enemy fighter
that's trying to get a good shot...

Masayuki Karahashi

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Dec 23, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/23/95
to
In article <cholmes-2212...@d235.portal.ca>,

Chris Holmes <cho...@portal.ca> wrote:
>
>How would you recommend these heavies plan their approach? They're not as
>maneoverable as your little Cessna. Their size and speed makes entering
>the traffic pattern impossible. Straight in is pretty much the only option
>they have.

hmm.. that's exactly what the article I read originally that got this
bashing started in the first place was about! Airliner pilot getting
busted for making straight-in's into uncontrolled (*ahem* excuse me,
PILOT controlled) airports!

---Masa


--
--- MASAYUKI KARAHASHI --- MASAYUKI KARAHASHI --- MASAYUKI KARAHASHI ---
Private Pilot - ASEL | |
ma...@cs.berkeley.edu / ma...@informix.com
"I think its time to go back to work.... what work?" (^_^) \_____/

broomstick

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Dec 23, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/23/95
to
In article <4b9kkv$q...@wilde.cs.tcd.ie> slou...@news.cs.tcd.ie (Sylvain Louboutin) writes:
>From: slou...@news.cs.tcd.ie (Sylvain Louboutin)
>Subject: Re: Airliners land at uncontrolled airport?
>Date: 20 Dec 1995 18:28:47 -0000

>ccc...@vip.cybercity.dk (Thomas Spatzek) writes:

>>As an ATC myself I can say that I find it a lot safer to have an
>>airlinepilot with thousands of hours logged, and lots of experience
>>landing at an uncontrolled airfield, rather than all the VFR pilots
>>out there trying to get there 15 hrs logged to keep the certificate.

>as a quick reminder, air space belongs as much to the low time vfr


>pilots as to the commercial compagnies... more and more it seems that GA
>pilots can at best hope to be `tolerated' up there and that the only
>ones with a legitimate claim to fly are the big iron. think again.

Beg pardon? I know stick time is important, dude, but there are thousand-hour
idiots and safe 15 hour pilots. Yeah, I've seen dumb crap too (most notably a
Cherokee I had to dodge twice in the same hour to avoid collision) but the
safety factor has as much to do with an alert, thinking pilot who is aware of
his/her limitations as it has to do with the number of hours in a log book.

Not to mention that ALL pilots were once "VFR pilots out there trying to get
their 15 hours". If you don't have a place for the low-timers to fly in 20
years there will be no one flying at all. The next generation has to come
from somewhere.

==========================================================================
>---Broomstick--- | Soon to be airborne again
==========================================================================


broomstick

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Dec 23, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/23/95
to
In article <4beo11$5...@news1.deltanet.com> "John C. Dunbar" <j...@deltanet.com> writes:
>From: "John C. Dunbar" <j...@deltanet.com>

>Subject: Re: Airliners land at uncontrolled airport?
>Date: 22 Dec 1995 16:57:05 GMT

>ri...@ttd.teradyne.com (John Rice) wrote:
>>
>> In article <4b9kkv$q...@wilde.cs.tcd.ie>, slou...@news.cs.tcd.ie (Sylvain

>Louboutin) writes:
>> >
>> >>As an ATC myself I can say that I find it a lot safer to have an
>> >>airlinepilot with thousands of hours logged, and lots of experience
>> >>landing at an uncontrolled airfield,
>>

>> Are you kidding ? Most 'Big Iron' pilots came out of the military.
>> They're used to OWNING the airspace that they fly in. They aren't
>> trained to fly in uncontrolled airspace. They want to land 'straight in'
>> and 'everybody get out of MY way'. 'Pattern ' ? What's a pattern ?

>Excuse me, sir, but can you please explain to me how a DC-8 (or even a

>Boeing 737) that falls out of the sky at 120 knots fits into a 1000 foot
>AGL pattern at the typical general aviation airport? And can you imagine
>a DC-8 following a Cessna 152 downwind at 80 knots? Please give us a break.

This could be why I was told to yield to such traffic. This is exactly why
you've got to keep your eyes open to keep your butt safe. It does no good to
quote regs and protest "But *I* had the right-of-way! *I* was in the pattern
and *he* wasn't!" once your plane is a smoking hole and you're standing at
the pearly gates.


>> As an ATC you have NO experience in this area, since by definition these
>> fields are UNCONTROLLED. Speak about something you 'know' not something
>> you 'assume'.

Mr. Rice, Just because he's an ATC doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's
talking about. ATC's are not kept locked in the tower you know, and a lot of
them fly themselves - sometimes out of uncontrolled fields. So who's making
the assumptions here?


>I suggest you take some of your own advice, Mr. Rice. I see that you are a
>private pilot. How can you possibly be qualified to pass judgement on
>airline pilots with thousands of hours more experience than you?

Mr. Dunbar, I noted that on your sig.line you fly "big iron" and certainly you
are more qualified to talk about professional flying than I am and I certainly
would not tell you how to do your job. However, the sort of flying you do and
the sort of flying I do are two very different things. Yes, we have the air
in common. But uncontrolled fields are the ONLY fields I've ever flown out of
- and I'm sure that there are airline pilots who have NEVER flown out of an
uncontrolled field. As you have pointed out, experience DOES count. So
perhaps those of us with a great deal of experience in uncontrolled fields
may, indeed, know more about THAT PARTICULAR subject than someone who has
never landed at one REGARDLESS of how many hours they have in the air. It
would be more accurate to talk about "number of take-offs/landings
in controlled vs. uncontrolled fields" than to talk about "hours in the air".
It in no way diminishes the professional skills of a pilot such as yourself
(who, for all I know, flies both sorts of fields) to point out that, if you
have never done a thing you may not know enough about it to do it safely. If
some of us get strident at times it is because we have had direct experience
with high-time pilots who DON'T know how to use an uncontrolled airfield and
we would really, really like them to learn how to use them safely and properly
because we value our hides.

============================================================================


>---Broomstick--- | Soon to be airborne again

============================================================================

Ralph Ricks

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Dec 23, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/23/95
to
>ri...@ttd.teradyne.com (John Rice) wrote:
>> Are you kidding ? Most 'Big Iron' pilots came out of the military.
. and 'everybody get out of MY way'. 'Pattern ' ? What's a pattern ?

Hey, give the guys a break. Most airliner cockpits (box office if it's
a female crew) were designed back in the fifties when traffic was not a
serious consideration. They just don't have good visibility for
spotting traffic. The windows are only about a foot high, with lots of
pillars in critical spots. When a 737 does that FAA approved hazardous
maneuver known as a noise abatement takeoff at Orange County airport,
the pilots cannot see their flight path ahead, only sky above.

Ralph pp ASEL, big iron avionics specialist, etc.

Don't post articles when you are angry.
Rickydik

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