German anti-tank guided Missiles, WW2?
David E. Powell
seen it in years) on the V-1 and other German guided missiles in WW2,
I saw the X-4 air to air wire guided missile.
Apparently many were built but there was a problem with getting
engines for them. (Maybe the factory was hit or there was a technical
problem?)
Anyhow, given the size of the missile and that it was tested against
ground targets at one point, I wonder if the Germans ever considered
wire guided antitank missiles? The X-4 had a 44 lb. warhead, and a 44
lb Panzerfaust or Panzershreck style shaped charge would have been
nasty if it was adapted for antitank use.
I also wonder if they considered launching them from vehicles or with
infantry teams. It seems that could have been something they would
look at, I wonder if they ever did. Also there wouldn't have been the
issues of getting it to work at altitude, and support usints/engineers
would be nearby to keep the systems working.
Imagine a Volkswagen with a twin launcher a la a TOW-equipped Hummer?
Given the rude introduction ATGMs gave the world in the Arab-Israel
wars, imagining the Germans breaking out with them at Kursk or
something is a heck of a what if.
Watching the show was interesting, the Germans had a lot of ideas but
the thing was the guidance. Luckily they didn't get far enough there
to really make air to air and surface to air missles useful, though
their antishipping ones did some really nasty damage.
Rob Arndt
wrote:
The X-4 was tested with Fw-190s and were intended for the Me-262 and
Fw Ta 183.
The spin-off of that was the X-7 which was also field-tested on the
Russian front in 1945:
The Ruhrstahl X-7 "Rottkapchen"
A tank-killing rocket with better range than the panzerfaust/
panzershreck was requested by the Heereswaffenamt in 1944.
Ruhrstahl solution was a scaled down version of their X-4 AAM, the
conventional HE warhead was exchanged for a 2.5 kg shaped charge and
with 2 wings with parabolic leading and trailing edges, with spools
from which the control wire paid out located at their tips. It
revolved slowly in flight, both pitch and yaw being controlled by a
spade-like vane or fin mounted at the end of a curved arm which when
the missile was launched, hung down and behind the body. The missile
rotated at a rate of about one complete round per second, this was
able to excercise control over both pitch and yaw, a gyroscopic switch
transferring the signals to acute the simple spoiler as it turned from
the vertical to the horizontal plane and so on.
The X-7 was powered by two WASAG solid-fuel rockets whose diglycol
propellant was in the form of two concentric tubes. The first charge
gave a thrust of 68 kg for 2.5 seconds to launch the missile into
flight and and get it to its 360km/h operating speed; The second gave
5.5 kg of thrust for 8 seconds to sustain it. Maximum range was around
1200m. A few hundred were produced and most were used in testing, but
some was supposedly expended on the eastern front were it accoording
to unconfirmed reports performed satisfactorily and was able to
destroy even the JS-1 heavy tank.
I have a photo of one of the test X-7s on my site here:
http://weapons.greyfalcon.us/
This is a non-warhead test missile that is fragmented by impact...
The Germans also had other AT missiles under development including a
flying Pzf called the EMW Flunder.
The X-7 was the inspiration for the Sagger and French SS-11 missiles.
Rob
Paul J. Adam
<1a27d229-bc38-4817...@o4g2000pra.googlegroups.com>,
David E. Powell <David_Po...@msn.com> writes
>Anyhow, given the size of the missile and that it was tested against
>ground targets at one point, I wonder if the Germans ever considered
>wire guided antitank missiles? The X-4 had a 44 lb. warhead, and a 44
>lb Panzerfaust or Panzershreck style shaped charge would have been
>nasty if it was adapted for antitank use.
This was done as the X-7 "Little Red Riding Hood", which at least made
design stage: like many such weapons, claims of thousands being produced
and issued aren't matched by any finds of actual weapons: the only
evidence is of test firings in late 1944.
>Given the rude introduction ATGMs gave the world in the Arab-Israel
>wars, imagining the Germans breaking out with them at Kursk or
>something is a heck of a what if.
Worth remembering that ATGMs were a mature technology that had been
around for nearly twenty years by 1973 (the French SS10 went to market
in 1955, and first saw combat in Israeli hands in 1956; the UK had
Vigilant in service from 1958, and the Soviet AT-1 Snapper fought
without much conspicuous success in 1967). The early uses tended to be
adequate to inauspicious.
A major contributor to the Israelis getting such an unwelcome surprise
from ATGM in 1973 was their move away from traditional combined arms;
not enough infantry and artillery support to the tanks, and an
overdependence on air power instead. German ATGM in 1944 would have been
unwelcome but it's hard to see how they could be decisive: more likely
to resemble Egyptian use of AT-1s in 1967.
--
The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its
warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done
by fools.
-Thucydides
paul<dot>j<dot>adam[at]googlemail{dot}.com
Rob Arndt
> In message
> <1a27d229-bc38-4817-b125-4081c382a...@o4g2000pra.googlegroups.com>,
> David E. Powell <David_Powell3...@msn.com> writes
Re-post:
Just "some" of the German rockets and missiles of WW2:
42cm RZ-100
5.5cm R4M
21cm Wgr
SB-800 Kurt
SG-500
Panzerblitz
Kramer X-4
Hs-298
Hs-293
Hs-294
Hs-295
Hs-296
Hs GT-1200
Hs Zitteroschen
BV L-10 Friedensengel
Bv-143
Bv-246 Hagelkorn
Bv-246 Radische
SG-113
Fi-103 (V-1)
Peenemunde A-4 (V-2)
Peenemunde A-9
Peenemunde A-9/A-10
Peenemunde A-11
Peenemunde A-12
Henschel V-4
C-2 Wasserfall
E-5 Enzian
Hs-117 Schmetterling
Rheintochtor
Rheinbote
EMW Taifun F
F55 Feuerlilie
FK-2700 Hecht
RSK-2000
3cm Wurfkorper 42 Spreng
Prufstand XII projekt
22mm Fliegerfaust
Pzf 30k-250
88mm Puppchen
75mm Hs-217 Fohn
21cm Nebelwerfer 42
X-7 Rottkapchen
EMW Flunder
28cm Peenemunde rocket-assist shell
38cm Sturmtiger rocket tank
Sch. Wurfrahmen 40
15cm Opel Maultier
KM-2 EM rocket
Nusskracker
Arsenical rocket
Off the top of my head- all categories ;)
Rob
WaltBJ
diffused effort. There was no effective equivalent ot the National
Research and Defense Council nor the War Production Board to weed out
the no-hopes and feeble efforts and concentrate on really worthwhile
projects. Germany didn't have the industrial capacity to waste,
either.
Walt BJ
Dan
Nazis are well known for being stupid. The third wreck proved it many
times over.
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Rob Arndt
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes, they just wasted their time pioneering every modern conceivable
weapon system for the postwar Allied nations to fight with ;)
It took the US alone 11 years to go through all of the Nazi scientific
documents and wind tunnel data which was of course handed-over to
every branch of service and their appropriate manufacturers. The US
had NOTHING like Germany's missile development program nor that ICBM
concept that led to the man on the moon- that's why they took Von
Braun and the Dachau doctors for USAF and NACA/NASA research and
development for high altitude and space projects culminating in some
of man's greatest postwar achievements. The Army got the hollow-charge
wire-guided missile and assault rifles plus nerve gases. The Navy took
the Type XXIs and explored every inch of them and even operated them
for years afterwards basing their innovations on the next generation
of subs as well as taking the wire-guided torpedos and missile sub
concept from Prufstand XII. And the German synthetic fuel hydronation
system was experimented with for 13 years in Texas and quietly
dismantled and filed away by the military and the oil companies. Spin-
offs of German military technologies and direct non-classified weapon
systems were sold to nations around the world- even to our Communist
Red enemy, the USSR.
Stop trying to falsify real history. Victor song US history about WW2
and its aftermath is bullshit and propaganda. 85% of the US arsenal is
derived from Second and Third Reich technologies, not domestic.
Rob
Dan
Once again you prove my point about Nazis not being intelligent
since you seem to have missed Walt's point. He addressed Germany's
inability to reduce production to a few designs that could be mass
produced in short order. All the wonder designs in the world couldn't
have helped the Nazis win the war if they couldn't be be built in time
and in quantity. Example, your side wasted too much time, money and
manpower on V-2 and atomic bombs. They should have produced a tank that
could be produced in large numbers and more short range fighters like
Fw-190.
As for your 85% I'd sure like to know where you came up with that
percentage. In case you hadn't noticed 100% of any technology is based
on previously existing knowledge. You insist on telling us all about
everything the Germans gave the world yet you refuse to acknowledge that
which the Germans derived from others. Nothing like a little hypocrisy, yes?
Duwop
More likely sidestepped the points as he has no argument against them.
Much easier to create strawmen and sidestep.
> and in quantity. Example, your side wasted too much time, money and
> manpower on V-2 and atomic bombs.
Actually, they never really spent much manpower on the A-bomb. Your
point is still valid. The Nazi system was corrupt and dysfunctional
at it's roots. Hitler's kept his henchmen at each others throats and
the economy started to look like his inner circle, separate fiefdoms
of the economy reporting to separate bossmen. That's one of the
reasons there was so many projects by so many different people, the
Nazi's had so many in charge that nobody was effectively in charge.
>They should have produced a tank that
> could be produced in large numbers and more short range fighters like
> Fw-190.
They didn't appreciate mass production, that's for damn sure.
> As for your 85% I'd sure like to know where you came up with that
> percentage.
Out his ass, after he first removed his V-2 polypyrene reproduction
buttplug of course.
Eunometic
wrote:
> Watching the "Wings of the Luftwaffe" show I recently DVR'd (Hadn't
> seen it in years) on the V-1 and other German guided missiles in WW2,
> I saw the X-4 air to air wire guided missile.
>
> Apparently many were built but there was a problem with getting
> engines for them. (Maybe the factory was hit or there was a technical
> problem?)
>
rocket motor was hit damaging several hundred of these motors, as a
result a backup solid propellant motor was selected as a substitute.
This motor was no longer smokeless though it was more economical.
There were non wired guided versions incidentally being built (system
tests at least) as well using accoustic and infrared homing.
>
>
> Anyhow, given the size of the missile and that it was tested against
> ground targets at one point, I wonder if the Germans ever considered
> wire guided antitank missiles? The X-4 had a 44 lb. warhead, and a 44
> lb Panzerfaust or Panzershreck style shaped charge would have been
> nasty if it was adapted for antitank use.
>
Rhurstahl company. it used command line of sight wire guidance but
there were also several other systems nearly ready to be deployed.
The X10 was an modication of the X-4 suitable for Air to Ground as
well as Ground to Ground use against bunkers and tanks. Post war the
French developed this work into the AS10 AS11 missile. The most
obvious modification being the warhead and fuze. This was probably
the first wire guided ATGM.
The X7, again from Rhurstahl and Max Kramer, was a much smaller
slower missile for anti tank use by ground troops, small enough to be
hand carried by one man but with a range of only 600m. Longer ranged
versions were planed.
The first of Dr Kramer’s guided missiles was in fact the world first
ever operational guided missiles the Fritz-X also known as the X-1.
Basically this was and SC-1400 semi armour piercing bomb with a
guidance kit in place of the tail and a set of 4 wings welded/bolted
to the bomb sides.
The later X-4, X-7 and X-10 were informed by this missile.
The X-1 (Fritz-X) was deadly against battle ships sized targets.
Without air cover ships were highly vulnerable to this weapon which
when launched from about 22,000ft achieved a combat CEP of about 16m.
The bomb was aimed by the standard Lotfe 7c computing wind correcting
bomb sight (like the Norden linked to the auto pilot) after release
the pilot throttled back, selected flaps and conducted a pull-up
manoeuvre. This slowed the aircraft down and gained about 4000ft
height thereby aligning the bombardiers sight, the missile flare and
target up. It also helped throw of the predicted flak. The bomb
aimer then took control of the missile via the “Kehl Strassberg” radio
control system:- using a joystick to align the fair with the target.
This gave a few hundred meters of control in range and cross range
which was enough to account for target manoeuvring and wind drift.
Kehl was the transmitter while Strassberg the receiver. This system
was also used on the Hs 293 rocket-glide bomb. The allies tried to
jam it by finding the frequencies and putting noise into them, this
may have reduced the missiles effectiveness but its not known if
missiles that veered of course simply had technical faults:- the
Luftwaffe electronic ‘sniffer; aircraft a He 177 had been shot down.
When the allies recovered some Hs 293 missiles in Italy they were able
to switch from noise jamming to spoof jamming (sending a false turn
right signal.). While this may have been more successful it looks
like the Germans had introduced a simple countermeasure system of one
in flight frequency change by the Normandy landings, this I suspect is
why German bombers were able to still destroy several ships despite
jamming.
In the event of jamming the backup systems were meant to be deployed:
FuG 205/FuG 235 Greifwald/Kolber FM (frequency modulated) instead of
amplitude modulated system as drop in replacement backup for Kehl/
Strassberg in the event of significant jamming being detected.
FuG 207/FuG 237,Dortmund/Duisburg Wire Guidance System for retrofit to
the Hs 293A missile as a further assurance against jamming.
The wires were 0.22mm thick and played out from the inside of hollow
bobbins.
FuG 208/FuG 238 Duren/Detmold Wire Guidance System for Fritz-X (this
needed much less wire due to reduced range so it could use simplified
circuitry) This simplified system was similar to that used in the
X-4.
FuG 510/FuG 540 Kogge/Brigge High Frequency 1200Mhz/25cm impulse
modulated using directional polyrod antenna was to be the core of a
number of German guided missiles with development starting in 1944.
It was designed to be very immune to jamming.
Kogge/Brigge simply replaced the wire bobbins and was a drop in
replacement for the wire guidance on the X-4 and X-10. This system
was very important as it was to be the uplink of a number of surface
to air missiles.
Jamming a missile would have been quite difficult.
The X4, X7 and X-10 all rotated about their axis at 1 or two
revolutions per second. A single gyroscope (spun up by a 1 gramm
gunpowder chargen in the case of the X-7) and kept track of up.
Guidence signals were transmitted through slip rings and commutates to
ensures commands went to the correct guidance fins. The fins ‘paddle’
out at the appropriate time with the duration determining the extent
of the turn.
The X-7 had proximity fuze, there was “Kranich 1” which reacted to
propeller modulations within the 7m kill zone of the warhead and an
alternative called “Miese”. There was also acoustic homming.
“Dogge” and another competing one called “Pudel”. In this system a
microphone was offset on the nose cone of the missile and connected to
the guidance fins. As the missile rotated the microphone would turn
the missile in the direction of the target. When the target was
cantered the sounds would be even throughout the missiles rotation.
It was hoped to fit a reticle scan infra-red homing system and
infrared warhead as well with this homing technology shared with
surface to air missiles. The Germans having invested heavily in
cryogenic cooled passive infra red sensors.
>
> I also wonder if they considered launching them from vehicles or with
> infantry teams. It seems that could have been something they would
> look at, I wonder if they ever did. Also there wouldn't have been the
> issues of getting it to work at altitude, and support usints/engineers
> would be nearby to keep the systems working.
>
> Imagine a Volkswagen with a twin launcher a la a TOW-equipped Hummer?
>
No doubt the Germans would have tried this given their shortages of
tanks and anti-tank weapons.
I’d like to take a little snipe at the hummer at this point. Have a
look at any German armoured wheeled vehicle from mid war onwards: they
all had oblique armour on the undersides in order to deflect the blast
of mines and protect the crew from mines and what is now called IED.
Why not the hummer?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SdKfz_221
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SdKfz_231
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SdKfz_251
The missiles almost entered service, some reports say a few were
launched, the troops involved having been annihilated in to Russian
assault.
The TOW analogy is not to off. TOW is SACLOS (semi automatic command
line of sight) in which a missile flare (or infra-red beacon) is
tracked and corrections are sent along the wires by a simple
mechanical computer. The X-1, X-4 and X-7 were all initially CLOS
where the operator tracks the flare and flys the missile to target.
(Its a very accurate system that however requires lots of training,
allocate several missiles to each trainee)
Improvements of the X-7 Rotkäppchen were the “Steinbock” which used
infra-red transmitting of the guidance command and therefore didn't
require the wires. An automated tracking device was the Pfeifenkopf or
Pinsel project. It utilised a machine that computed the changes in
angle of the two sighting devices - one was to be aimed at the target,
the other at the missile (tracking a beacon or flare)- into commands
for the missile. (please note the ‘computer’ could be as simple as a
differential gearbox)
This mechanism was further automated in the Zielsuchgerät ("target
acquisition device"). By using an image recognition device (TV camera
tube) called Ikonoskop the missile was to seek its target through it's
own optical sensor that compared the image data from the aiming device
with the data it received from its own optical sensor. (there were
actually some other optical contrast homing systems under development
by the Germans in WW2 basically designed to home onto ships being
developed by the German TV companies as well as the US. )
Besides these avionics and electronic equipment, other long range
ATGMs were the Rochen-600, Rochen-1000 and Rochen-2000 for ranges of
500m , 1500m and 3000m respectively. Another project called Flunder
utilized many parts of the Panzerfaust including it's warhead and
using it's launch tube for the rocket engine. None of these projects
were completed.
> Given the rude introduction ATGMs gave the world in the Arab-Israel
> wars, imagining the Germans breaking out with them at Kursk or
> something is a heck of a what if.
>
I think they might have success especially if they were evolved to the
extent that they were particularly easy to fly or lots of troops had
been extensively trained in their competent use. To make them
decisive they would need to be SACLOS guided due to the operator
training issue.
>
> Watching the show was interesting, the Germans had a lot of ideas but
> the thing was the guidance. Luckily they didn't get far enough there
> to really make air to air and surface to air missles useful, though
> their antishipping ones did some really nasty damage.
The severed bombing campaigns and shortages prevented the deployment
of these weapons, like so many other good ideas that came to fruition
well after the war in other countries.