Fallschirmjaeger VS 101st Airborne
LIBERATOR
against the Fallschirmjaeger?
I hear that the Fallschirmjaeger is considered an elite unit, but I
also heard by official historical record they got their cans kicked by
the Greeks, who were not trained, it was a force of half citizenry and
half half assed soldiers that beat the Fallschirmjaeger - as the
record goes...
So, although I find it hard to believe that story about Greece, was
the Fallschirmjaeger elite at the level of Waffen SS?
And the 101st, was their training that good?
If so, why after WW2 did Patton through Dulles get Waffen SS to
conceive the special forces for the USA?
Rob Arndt
Do you just make this shit up, or are you confusing the 1941 Greek
Fallschirmjaeger campaign with Crete (Operation Mercury)? I think the
latter and yet even though the Germans lost 3,250 troops and 3,400
wounded (out of 22,000), they took Crete and killed 2,500 British,
Greek, and New Zealanders plus took 25,000 prisoner! It was a bad
operation, but not the Fallschirjaegers fault- bad Abwehr intelligence
was to blame.
Prior to this, the German Fallschirmajaeger had won over Norway and
Denmark, France and the Low Countries (especially at Eben Emael), and
Greece by 1941. After Crete, however, no large-scale operations were
conducted although Fallschirmjaegers were involved in N Africa, Italy,
and the Balkans.
In Italy, they held Cassino for months denying the Allies the main
road to Rome- 30,000 troops held back by under 100 German
paratroopers! Delayed the war.
Overall, I think the Fallschirmjaegers are definately in the WW2 elite
along with the Brandenburg Kommandos and the Waffen SS.
I do not care to comment on Allied forces like the 101st, but they
rank up there too as well as all British SFs of WW2.
One group that I have never been able to get photos of or operational
details is I.G. Farben's industrial commandos- NW-7. I'm sure the US
Govt. knows more about them in 1945 than Germany does... if we could
only question Prescott Bush ;)
Rob
Ian B MacLure
bfcc-ef8...@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com:
> Who would win in a battle of say, 1,000 against 1,000 U.S. Airborne
> against the Fallschirmjaeger?
You'd need to specify the situation rather more exactly than
that.
> I hear that the Fallschirmjaeger is considered an elite unit, but I
> also heard by official historical record they got their cans kicked by
> the Greeks, who were not trained, it was a force of half citizenry and
> half half assed soldiers that beat the Fallschirmjaeger - as the
> record goes...
The German paratroop arm won a Pyrhic victory on Crete.
They took their objectives but the cost was appalling in
German eyes. The folks who did the damage were British and
Commonwealth regulars not Greeks.
> So, although I find it hard to believe that story about Greece, was
> the Fallschirmjaeger elite at the level of Waffen SS?
The FJ were specialists. They were not intended for the sort
of combined arms combat the Waffen SS were trained and equipped for.
> And the 101st, was their training that good?
>
> If so, why after WW2 did Patton through Dulles get Waffen SS to
> conceive the special forces for the USA?
No. Their heritage lies more with 1st Special and later
developments
IBM
LIBERATOR
ROBBIE IS MY IDOL BUT HE'S KIND OF MEAN!!
Robbie, I did not make that up. I saw it in a book. The
Fallshirmjaeger was whopped at Crete.
That was the battle I was talking about. Damn!! I can't remember the
book otherwise I'd give the name & details, of which you could go &
review it for yourself and be shocked and dumbfounded as I was.
Furthermore, I had a picture that showed the Greeks welcoming the
Germans. That's right, the Greek military commander was smiling and
shaking the hand of the German military commander, and then a mob of
Greek citizens were behind this all of them smiling in cheer.
I no longer have the photo. But it's amazing when something like that
could be useful.
David E. Powell
What is the terrain? Who is attacking and who is defending?
The other question is, who has air cover and air superiority?
Jeff Dougherty
> Who would win in a battle of say, 1,000 against 1,000 U.S. Airborne
> against the Fallschirmjaeger?
That's like asking who would win a fight of, say, a saber tooth tiger
against a Tyrannosaur. The 101st Airborne didn't enter combat until
1944 (On June 6th- fancy that), and by that time the Fallscherimjaeger
were more or less gone. The casualties they took on Crete convinced
Hitler that airborne operations were a novelty that worked only when
nobody knew how to defend against them, and that there was no further
need for parachute troops. The Germans used parachutes for commando
operations and such later in the war, but Crete was the last time they
tried a large-scale airborne assault.
They stuck around in name and even expanded because they were
Luftwaffe units and it was an excuse for Goering to have more people
in his fiefdom, but by 1944 they weren't really comparable to the
101st anymore.
-JTD
Rob Arndt
wrote:
What a bogus comparison. the German Fallschirmjaeger originated
officially in 1938 (6 yrs before the 101st) and at its peak had
160,000 troops. They were widely successful againstNorway, Denmark,
France , Belgium, Greece, and even though they took heavy losses (by
German/Hitler's standards) they DID take Crete.
The decision that large-scale Fallschirmjaeger assaults was finished
by Hitler was HIS choice and does not reflect on the skill of these
elite. They fought on every front through the duration of the war and
commanded respect from the Allies.
The 101st was founded in 1942 and had initially 8200 men. They were
used in the D-Day assault and that was a disorganized mess with 1500
of their 6600 troops landing way off course and some untis not able to
participate at all as they were too far away. The Germans still
carried on the fight and the 101st had to pass through "Hells Highway"
and got trapped at Bastogne until 12/26/44 when there was a break-out
(remember the "Nuts" line?). They then slowly moved into Reich
territory and ended-up in Austria. They lost 2000 men with thousands
more causalities. Far from an overwhelming beating of the Germans,
especially since the Germans had been fighting for 5 years
previously!!!
Give it a rest.
Rob
Rob Arndt
SS-Fallschirmjäger-Bataillon 500 was formed at Chlum, Czechoslovakia,
Oct 1943 (this was not the first attempt for form a paratroop-unit in
the Waffen-SS, a failed attempt was made in 1937) and was made up of
volunteers from both regular Waffen-SS units and from men who had been
convicted of military offenses, such as falling asleep on guard duty,
the latter were given a chance to redeem themselves in combat.
It was sent to Luftwaffe Fallschirm-Schule Nr.3 at Mataruška banja,
Yugoslavia, for jump-training Nov 1943 and later to Papa, Hungary,
where they completed their training.
It was sent back to Yugoslavia where they took part in anti-partisan
operations until Apr 1944 when the preparations for Operation
Rösselsprung began. The men of the batallion jumped and landed gliders
near Partisan leader Josip "Tito" Broz's headquarters in the mountains
near Drvar 25 May 1944. The attack was initially a surprise but Tito
managed to escape and the paratroopers were soon suffering heavy
losses from the attacks by the partisans that were arriving from the
mountains around Drvar. The unit was relieved by elements of 7. SS-
Freiwilligen-Gebirgs Division Prinz Eugen and was sent to Petrovac
were it once again fought the partisans before being sent to Ljubljana
to rest in June.
It took part in toppling Horthy in Hungary with SS-Jäger-Bataillon
502. It was sent to Gotenhafen, East Prussia, to take part in the
occupation of the Aaland Islands in the Baltic Sea, but the operation
had been cancelled when they arrived. They were instead transferred to
Riga and later to Vilnius were they took part in heavy fighting before
being sent to Memel Oct 1944.
It was disbanded Oct 1944 and the remaining soldiers were used to form
SS-Fallschirmjäger-Bataillon 600.
The soldiers of of SS-Fallschirmjäger-Bataillon 500 & 600 wore
standard Waffen-SS tunics and caps with Luftwaffe-issue jump smocks,
trousers, boots and M38 helmets (with Luftwaffe eagles or without any
eagle, but no photos of helmets with the SS runes are known). Most of
the soldiers appear to have removed the Luftwaffe breast eagles from
their smocks and at least one photo is known of a soldiers with a
Waffen-SS sleeve-eagle on his smock.
This unit took part in anti-partisan operations in Croatia.
Commanders
SS-Sturmbannführer Herbert Gilhofer
SS-Hauptsturmführer Kurt Rybka
SS-Hauptsturmführer Siegfried Milius
Manpower strength:
25 May 1944 1000
30 June 1944 292
Order of battle:
Stabs-Kompanie
1. Fallschirm-Schützen-Kompanie
2. Fallschirm-Schützen-Kompanie
3. Fallschirm-Schützen-Kompanie
4. Fallschirm-(schwer-waffen)-Kompanie
Feldausbildungs-Kompanie
SS-Fallschirmjäger-Bataillon 600 was formed around a cadre from the
Feldausbildungs-Kompanie of SS-Fallschirmjäger-Bataillon 500 and the
remaining men from that unit who returned from fighting in the Baltics
Oct 1944.
Two companies of it took part in the Ardennes offensive as a part of
150. Panzer-Brigade wearing American uniforms and using American
equipment. After the failure in the Ardennes the men returned to the
unit that was still in training, it was finally sent to fight the Red
Army on the Oder Feb 1945.
Commanders
SS-Sturmbannführer Siegfried Milius
~ Published sources used
Antonio J. Munoz - Forgotten Legions: Obscure Combat Formations of the
Waffen-SS
Rob
LIBERATOR
> Germans also had Waffen SS Fallschirmajaeger units:
>
> SS-Fallschirmjäger-Bataillon 500 was formed at Chlum, Czechoslovakia,
> Oct 1943 (this was not the first attempt for form a paratroop-unit in
> the Waffen-SS, a failed attempt was made in 1937) and was made up of
> volunteers from both regular Waffen-SS units and from men who had been
> convicted of military offenses, such as falling asleep on guard duty,
> the latter were given a chance to redeem themselves in combat.
>
ROBBIE IS MY IDOL ROBBIE IS MY IDOL ROBBIE IS MY IDOl!!!
yeah yeah yeah yeah!!! ROBBIE IS MY IDOL ROBBIE IS MY IDOL,
yeah yeah y e a h ..... y e a h!!!
LIBERATOR
Robbie, wasn't the 82nd slaughtered into non-existence as they dropped
into Saint Merie Gleese (sp)?
So talented they dropped right into a lighted area and were chopped
down by Wehrmacht. I saw this in "The Longest Day", and felt bad for
them.
But obviously their training and leaders weren't too concerned for
their well being or being victorious.
David E. Powell
No. They were heavily dispersed in the night drops and landed off
target in a lot of cases but still accomplished the mission and were
back in combat strength for the fight across Europe.
> So talented they dropped right into a lighted area and were chopped
> down by Wehrmacht. I saw this in "The Longest Day", and felt bad for
> them.
Being paratroopers is not easy now and was not then. They accomplished
the mission and won the battle. The guys who went up the cliffs at
Pointe Du Hoc eventually found and destroyed the German guns that had
been moved inland too.
> But obviously their training and leaders weren't too concerned for
> their well being or being victorious.
They were attempting to win the war and risking the well being of men
happens occasionally while trying to do that, the need to do so is
balanced against the risks of not doing so. As for their being
victorious, they were.
Keith Willshaw
"David E. Powell" <David_Po...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:bad505c2-0517-4857...@k30g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
In comparison with the losses suffered by the Fallschirmjaeger on Crete
it was a cakewalk. A more interesting clash is the real one between
Fallschirmjaeger in France with the 442nd Regiment of the US Army (Nisei)
.
The Germans were apparently rather confused to be attacked by Japanese
soldiers in US uniforms. One prisoner was heard bitterly complaining
that he had been told the Japanese were allies of the Germans :)
One of those American soldiers, Private Barney Hajiro won not only
the medal of Honor but was also awarded with the Military Medal
by the British Army and the Legion d'Honneur for his courage
in the campaign fought in the Vosges. Thats a pretty dammed
rare combination.
Keith
Steve Hix
"Keith Willshaw" <ke...@nospam.kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
The 442nd were a pretty exceptional bunch.