Canadair Sabre vs Folland Gnat.
Ken S. Tucker
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folland_Gnat#Operational_history
Looks like in 1970 the Brits had the best dogfighter in the world!
Canadair Sabre looks like a close 2nd.
The Mig21 and F-104 were distant 3rd, 4th in that roll.
Makes one rethink the cliche, 'speed is king', in real combat.
The diamond wing formula might have a serious weakness.
Ken
kirk....@gmail.com
> In this article is "Sabre Slayer",http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folland_Gnat#Operational_history
Apples and oranges, Ken - the 21 and 104 can dictate the fight at
will, due to their speed. But yes, if they slow down and play with
the Sabre or Gnat, they can get bitch-slapped.
Nothing new or even remarkable. Think F-4 vs Mig-17 over NVN, or P-38
vs A6M over Rabaul, etc...
Now, if you want to compare Gnat vs Sabre 6 vs Hunter vs Mig-17 vs
Fury (the Navy jet one), you can have a rousing bar argument,
especially if you keep it guns - only!
Get a copy of Shaw's book on air combat tactics and it's all
beautifully explained.
Kirk
deem...@aol.com
> In this article is "Sabre Slayer",http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folland_Gnat#Operational_history
Why would a sane 21 or 104 pilot want to dogfight?
Dan
Tucker World� is unaffected by sanity or reality.
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Ian B MacLure
news:e801f0ab-24b2-453b...@f29g2000yqa.googlegroups.com:
[snip]
> Why would a sane 21 or 104 pilot want to dogfight?
I wasn't aware there was such an animal. Sane '21 or '104
driver that is.
IBM
Ken S. Tucker
wrote:
> On Feb 15, 2:34 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...@vianet.on.ca> wrote:
Just to preface, I got to studying the f-106 in dogfighting in a
recent thread, and tried working out energy loss in turns.
> > In this article is "Sabre Slayer",http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folland_Gnat#Operational_history
> > Looks like in 1970 the Brits had the best dogfighter in the world!
> > Canadair Sabre looks like a close 2nd.
> > The Mig21 and F-104 were distant 3rd, 4th in that roll.
> > Makes one rethink the cliche, 'speed is king', in real combat.
> > The diamond wing formula might have a serious weakness.
> > Ken
>
> Apples and oranges, Ken - the 21 and 104 can dictate the fight at
> will, due to their speed. But yes, if they slow down and play with
> the Sabre or Gnat, they can get bitch-slapped.
Well, they (21, 104) lose energy fast in hard banking, and have
limited
range, so they be able to 'runaway' faster.
> Nothing new or even remarkable. Think F-4 vs Mig-17 over NVN, or P-38
> vs A6M over Rabaul, etc...
>
> Now, if you want to compare Gnat vs Sabre 6 vs Hunter vs Mig-17 vs
> Fury (the Navy jet one), you can have a rousing bar argument,
> especially if you keep it guns - only!
Going forward, from 1970 to now, AAM's have been nearly perfected,
but AAM countermeasures are rapidly evolving, i.e. what if the AAM
doesn't work? Then we're back to guns and dog-fight.
Ken
Ken S. Tucker
Danelda, you're an anti-semetic Jew and now a Brit basher,
show a little respect, you don't like anybody.
I'm an equal opportunity racist, I dislike everybody the same.
Ken
Dan
<snip>
>
> Well, they (21, 104) lose energy fast in hard banking, and have
> limited
> range, so they be able to 'runaway' faster.
>
to "runaway" unless the turn is part of said "runaway" in which case the
airplane has to make up the lost energy.
Ken S. Tucker
I understand the structural considerations of the diamond wing
planform of the F-22 and F-35, however my understanding of
aerodynamics has the 'diamond' losing energy in turns, aspect
ratio, issues.
A modernized Gnat planform vs a F-22 / 35, that uses composites,
stealthilized, given 10 GnatX's to 1 F-22 in cost, I'll fly a GnatX.
Suppose 2 GnatX's - out of 10 - get shot down to get the F-22,
My chances of surviving in the GnatX are 80%, but 0% in F-22.
In nature is observed 3 small birds taking on a big raven and
scaring it away.
Also we have a Falcon that hangs out in our front yard, and
screams out to intercept a dink bird or pigeon, that's nature,
it's totally cool how that intercept happens.
Ken
deem...@aol.com
> "deemsb...@aol.com" <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote innews:e801f0ab-24b2-453b...@f29g2000yqa.googlegroups.com:
>
> [snip]
>
> > Why would a sane 21 or 104 pilot want to dogfight?
>
> I wasn't aware there was such an animal. Sane '21 or '104
> driver that is.
>
> IBM
Point taken.
deem...@aol.com
> On Feb 15, 10:39 pm, Dan <B24...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > Ken S. Tucker wrote:
>
> > <snip>
>
> > > Well, they (21, 104) lose energy fast in hard banking, and have
> > > limited
> > > range, so they be able to 'runaway' faster.
>
> > Losing energy in a turn has nothing whatever to do with the ability
> > to "runaway" unless the turn is part of said "runaway" in which case the
> > airplane has to make up the lost energy.
> > Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
> I understand the structural considerations of the diamond wing
> planform of the F-22 and F-35, however my understanding of
> aerodynamics has the 'diamond' losing energy in turns, aspect
> ratio, issues.
> A modernized Gnat planform vs a F-22 / 35, that uses composites,
> stealthilized, given 10 GnatX's to 1 F-22 in cost, I'll fly a GnatX.
And die pretty quickly. How expensive is training 10 pilots to
one?
>
> Suppose 2 GnatX's - out of 10 - get shot down to get the F-22,
> My chances of surviving in the GnatX are 80%, but 0% in F-22.
You're supposing could well be wrong. One F-22 could well knock
down 6 GnatXs and be able to disengage successfully.
>
> In nature is observed 3 small birds taking on a big raven and
> scaring it away.
The three small birds are at least as fast as the raven. Also,
the raven has nothing to attack them with at range. That makes this a
specious argument.
> Also we have a Falcon that hangs out in our front yard, and
> screams out to intercept a dink bird or pigeon, that's nature,
> it's totally cool how that intercept happens.
Which is a point in favor of the F-22....if birds and warplanes
had any correllation.
Paul Saccani
<dyna...@vianet.on.ca> wrote:
>In this article is "Sabre Slayer",
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folland_Gnat#Operational_history
>
>Looks like in 1970 the Brits had the best dogfighter in the world!
>Canadair Sabre looks like a close 2nd.
The Australian CA-27 Sabre had double the thrust of the Canadian
version. Given that it was a peer of the Canadair Sabre, and that the
principal combat issue for the PAF was the relatively higher thrust to
weight ratio of the Gnat being used by the IAF, I'd suggest that your
estimates are off.
Cheers,
Paul Saccani,
Perth,
Western Australia
kirk....@gmail.com
> On Mon, 15 Feb 2010 12:34:12 -0800 (PST), "Ken S. Tucker"
>
Uh, no. CA-27 had an Avon with 7500 lbs of thrust. It also had an
empty weight of 12000 lbs. Sabre 6 had an Orenda with 7500 lbs of
thrust, but only weighed 10,700 empty. Assuming same fuel and weapon
load, the Sabre 6 has a higher t/w.
Both were excellent dogfighters, probably the best of the time, with
from what I've read a slight nod going to the Sabre 6. Pakistani
Sabre 6s seem to have had no problem handling Indian Hunters.
Oddly enough, Ken has a point about the Folland Gnat - which did quite
well against the Pakistani Sabres, due to it's small size and good
performance in the vertical. But the big problem with the Gnat is
caused by it's small size: limited range and flexibility.
And his fantasy about a Gnatx surviving against a modern fighter - it
would have to be extrememly stealthy (so not to be seen by the F-22
until WVR) and have a really good passive target locating system (off
board sensors?) to allow it to know where the F-22s are, or else it's
just dogmeat. And short range dogmeat at that. Ken thinks fighters
just wander around until they see their opponent then jump into a
dogfight. That ended in the 30s when radar was invented!
Cheers,
Kirk
Peter Skelton
When I divide 7500 by two, I do not get 7275.
Peter Skelton
Ken S. Tucker
> On Feb 16, 2:48 am, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...@vianet.on.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 15, 10:39 pm, Dan <B24...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > Ken S. Tucker wrote:
>
> > > <snip>
>
> > > > Well, they (21, 104) lose energy fast in hard banking, and have
> > > > limited
> > > > range, so they be able to 'runaway' faster.
>
> > > Losing energy in a turn has nothing whatever to do with the ability
> > > to "runaway" unless the turn is part of said "runaway" in which case the
> > > airplane has to make up the lost energy.
> > > Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
> > I understand the structural considerations of the diamond wing
> > planform of the F-22 and F-35, however my understanding of
> > aerodynamics has the 'diamond' losing energy in turns, aspect
> > ratio, issues.
> > A modernized Gnat planform vs a F-22 / 35, that uses composites,
> > stealthilized, given 10 GnatX's to 1 F-22 in cost, I'll fly a GnatX.
>
> And die pretty quickly. How expensive is training 10 pilots to
> one?
There are cost/attrition aspects to consider.
> > Suppose 2 GnatX's - out of 10 - get shot down to get the F-22,
> > My chances of surviving in the GnatX are 80%, but 0% in F-22.
>
> You're supposing could well be wrong. One F-22 could well knock
> down 6 GnatXs and be able to disengage successfully.
The F-22 , 35 and that generation of jet fighters was based on
parameters - especially electronics, available materials, engines
to fix the design 20 years ago, but now we're getting near to a pilot
optional fighter a/c, minaturized, so the question becomes, will the
next generation of fighter be larger and more expensive or smaller?
> > In nature is observed 3 small birds taking on a big raven and
> > scaring it away.
>
> The three small birds are at least as fast as the raven. Also,
> the raven has nothing to attack them with at range. That makes this a
> specious argument.
>
> > Also we have a Falcon that hangs out in our front yard, and
> > screams out to intercept a dink bird or pigeon, that's nature,
> > it's totally cool how that intercept happens.
>
> Which is a point in favor of the F-22....if birds and warplanes
> had any correllation.
Watching nature is good stuff, millions of years of evolution
perfecting
tactics, formations and abilities.
Ken
Jim Wilkins
> ...
> Watching nature is good stuff, millions of years of evolution
> perfecting
> tactics, formations and abilities.
> Ken
Their gun and missile abilities peak at turd-flinging monkeys.
Ken S. Tucker
Well sure, it's only analogy. This falcon lurks in the bushes near
the lone left tree, (hope this image displays),
http://www.flickr.com/photos/46333912@N06/4298410058/sizes/o/
It fires off seriously quick, closes and intercepts, it's the fastest
bird,
highly maneuverable, can snatch a sparrow with a talon in mid flight
for a snack.
We don't have that technology. Falcon's are supposed able to spot
a mouse at 2 miles, and close for a snack off the ground.
For some strange reason, it's afraid of me, I went to the window
and it immediately broke off it's attack and fled, don't know why.
Ken
Jim Wilkins
> On Feb 16, 3:33 pm, Jim Wilkins <kb1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> We don't have that technology. Falcon's are supposed able to spot
> a mouse at 2 miles, and close for a snack off the ground.
> Ken
Nope, our only superior physical hunting ability is running down game
in hot climates, because they overheat sooner. When I was young I
could run my dog to exhaustion, for example. Once I had to carry him
back.
They don't have our skills either, though some animals can learn. We
fixed up a Segway and taught a bear to ride it, pretty well too.
http://www.clarkstradingpost.com/news.php
jsw
David E. Powell
I recall something about old footprints they found in Africa
suggesting an early human hunting tactic was to do just that. Stampede
and drive animals, til they collapsed.
Andrew Chaplin
wrote:
> On Feb 17, 8:36 am, Jim Wilkins <kb1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 16, 11:50 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...@vianet.on.ca> wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 16, 3:33 pm, Jim Wilkins <kb1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > ...
> > > We don't have that technology. Falcon's are supposed able to spot
> > > a mouse at 2 miles, and close for a snack off the ground.
> > ...
> > > Ken
>
> > Nope, our only superior physical hunting ability is running down game
> > in hot climates, because they overheat sooner. When I was young I
> > could run my dog to exhaustion, for example. Once I had to carry him
> > back.
>
> > They don't have our skills either, though some animals can learn. We
> > fixed up a Segway and taught a bear to ride it, pretty well too.http://www.clarkstradingpost.com/news.php
>
> suggesting an early human hunting tactic was to do just that. Stampede
> and drive animals, til they collapsed.
Or fell into a gully, as the Amerindians used to do with the Plains
bison.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
deem...@aol.com
Stampede them off cliffs, into quicksand, etc.....or dig a big pit
on the trail.
Paul Saccani
>On Feb 16, 8:06�am, Paul Saccani <sacc...@pc.jaring.my> wrote:
>> On Mon, 15 Feb 2010 12:34:12 -0800 (PST), "Ken S. Tucker"
>>
>> <dynam...@vianet.on.ca> wrote:
>> >In this article is "Sabre Slayer",
>> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folland_Gnat#Operational_history
>>
>> >Looks like in 1970 the Brits had the best dogfighter in the world!
>> >Canadair Sabre looks like a close 2nd.
>>
>> The Australian CA-27 Sabre had double the thrust of the Canadian
>> version. �Given that it was a peer of the Canadair Sabre, and that the
>> principal combat issue for the PAF was the relatively higher thrust to
>> weight ratio of the Gnat being used by the IAF, I'd suggest that your
>> estimates are off. �
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Paul Saccani,
>> Perth,
>> Western Australia
>
>Uh, no. CA-27 had an Avon with 7500 lbs of thrust. It also had an
>empty weight of 12000 lbs. Sabre 6 had an Orenda with 7500 lbs of
>thrust,
The Orenda 14 of the Mk6 had 7,275 lb at sea level, but I take your
point.
> but only weighed 10,700 empty. Assuming same fuel and weapon
>load, the Sabre 6 has a higher t/w.
I was thinking more of the thrust available at the high altitudes
encountered in the '71 Indo-Pakistan conflict. (I was there at the
time and found it a bit disconcerting when it was neccessary to do a
bit of evading of the PAF Sabres when they intruded into India). The
CAC Sabre in air to air had a lighter weapons load than the Mk.6.
Both engines were derated, the Mk.26 Avon much more so than the Orenda
14. That's why I thought there was a greater difference at height,
but having thought about it a bit more, I think the only thing I
should do is concede - I don't have hard data to support that view.
>Both were excellent dogfighters, probably the best of the time, with
>from what I've read a slight nod going to the Sabre 6. Pakistani
>Sabre 6s seem to have had no problem handling Indian Hunters.
The CAC Sabre took more than a few design cues from the Canadair one
in any case. Interestingly, the CA27 was faster than its replacement
- but only as long as you didn't use reheat.
>Oddly enough, Ken has a point about the Folland Gnat - which did quite
>well against the Pakistani Sabres, due to it's small size and good
>performance in the vertical. But the big problem with the Gnat is
>caused by it's small size: limited range and flexibility.
Yes, its strength is also its weakness.
>And his fantasy about a Gnatx surviving against a modern fighter - it
>would have to be extrememly stealthy (so not to be seen by the F-22
>until WVR) and have a really good passive target locating system (off
>board sensors?) to allow it to know where the F-22s are, or else it's
>just dogmeat. And short range dogmeat at that. Ken thinks fighters
>just wander around until they see their opponent then jump into a
>dogfight. That ended in the 30s when radar was invented!
Indeed.
Paul Saccani
wrote:
Indeed - Yankees are not the only ones who can suffer from Jingoistic
blindness, ;) I was thinking more about 3,800 divided by 2,100 at
36,000 than a sea level comparison.
Thanks for smartening me up.
kirk....@gmail.com
comparing the Orenda to the Avon so have no basis to prefer one over
the other. Both Sabres were considered excellent dogfighters, and
lacking detailed Ps charts for each I'm just basing my opinion on what
I've read.
Basic air-to-air weapon load out for the 6 would be 6 x M3 .50 machine
guns, vs the 2 x 30 mm Adens of the CA27 - probably not much
difference in installed weight (with ammo) there. Add 2 AIM-9Bs,
still pretty much the same weapon loadout. The Adens were probably
more effective, despite their lower rate of fire.
Overall, if both had run into each other, it would have been decided
by the nut behind the stick, I would think!
I was lucky enough to watch Bob Hoover demonstrate a privately owned
(Clay Lacey?) Sabre 5 or 6 at the Reno Races back in the late 70s - he
jumped in it, ran a few laps around the unlimited course, then took it
up and did a 3 or 4 turn spin, recovering easily and into the low
altitude course again! What a beautiful design.
Cheers,
Kirk
Ken S. Tucker
What I learned, was how Genghis Khan fed his nomadic army of
about 100,000 while being nomadic, meaning without a logistical
supply line, in order to conquer asia.
He'd take his 100,000 and form a large encirclement, then they'd
close the circle and all edible game and vegies were collected,
as the circle closed, knowing Mongols, a few humans too.
Anything edible within the circle had a low chance of living.
The Mongol's then constructed a saddle with their meat portion,
sounds practical, and an interesting way to tenderize meat.
In detail, the meat was in a leather saddle in a brine solution.
Genghis is a seriously respectable military genious.
He worked out the logistics, cavalry training, super intel, in
details, then appled that management to improve asia.
In wake of the 'conquests' roads were designated and security
was applied to traders, to improve commerce, that ultimately
became a great benefit to Asia, later copied by Ike using the
Interstate Highway System, for the US.
I'm fairly certain Genghis was sending a lot home as the horde
moved south to China and west toward India and Persia, via
roadway, likely he learned from the early Roman Empire roads.
Railways are expensive to install but efficient to operate, so
maybe the Asian's should build a seriously efficient continent
railway system, like a bullet train from Saigon to Berlin, that
sort of thing.
I think that would be a good peace maneuver as it would bind
people together, which is culturally important.
Also, I think that would be cheaper than war and be more
beneficial.
Ken
deem...@aol.com
That was how they hunted. That's not how they supplied themselves
on campaign. Their horses/ponies could live off grass. The Mongols
lived off dried meat, horse milk, and whatever they plundered along
the way.
>
> The Mongol's then constructed a saddle with their meat portion,
> sounds practical, and an interesting way to tenderize meat.
> In detail, the meat was in a leather saddle in a brine solution.
They put meat between their saddles and the horse....not quite the
same as making the meat their saddles.
>
> Genghis is a seriously respectable military genious.
Ya think?
>
> He worked out the logistics, cavalry training, super intel, in
> details, then appled that management to improve asia.
> In wake of the 'conquests' roads were designated and security
> was applied to traders, to improve commerce, that ultimately
> became a great benefit to Asia, later copied by Ike using the
> Interstate Highway System, for the US.
No, Ike copied the Autobahns. The mongols didn't build many roads.
They maintained the existing ones and, more importantly, provided
security to traders and travellers.
>
> I'm fairly certain Genghis was sending a lot home as the horde
> moved south to China and west toward India and Persia, via
> roadway, likely he learned from the early Roman Empire roads.
>
Actually, the Mongols consumed much of their conquests. Karakorum
was pretty much a huge tent city with a few permanent structures until
well after GK died.
Ian B MacLure
news:0feb8937-bda8-470d...@u9g2000yqb.googlegroups.com:
[snip]
> No, Ike copied the Autobahns. The mongols didn't build many roads.
> They maintained the existing ones and, more importantly, provided
> security to traders and travellers.
In addition to having seen the utility of the autobahn system
Ike had personal experience of the difficulties of long distance
travel in the absence of a highway system. He was 2IC of the first
trancontinental military vehicle convoy circa 1919.
IBM
Ken S. Tucker
Given the times, the Mongol intent was to establish good safe roads
from
Indochina to Europe, with a reasonable toll. Keeping a crown on the
road
is tough to do, cuz wagon wheel pressure makes ruts, even the US inter
state system gets that in the right lane from trucks.
After 2000 years, we're still trying to make good low maintenance
roads,
that are practical.
Arizona is ok, cuz they don't get much water or freezing, but the slow
lane is sunk by trucks and heat, so they need resurfacing, it's tough.
The man who perfects the road will own the world :-).
Ken
Jim Wilkins
> ...
> The man who perfects the road will own the world :-).
> Ken
And his name will be Hadrian,
Some of the northern US states can maintain fine, smooth roads despite
the damaging climate. Traffic is low enough outside the tourist
seasons to permit repaving one lane at a time.
When I was in Germany some old and heavily-travelled sections of the
Autobahn such as around Frankfurt were in terrible condition. The
bridges were too short to allow a temporary lane to divert traffic
around the one being paved. Newer sections were far better.
It was almost physically sickening to drive a lightly loaded Army
truck at top speed (still too slow) over the rough broken concrete. I
was always happy to catch a flight even when the pilot demonstrated
hot combat landings to try to shake me up.
jsw
jsw
Ken S. Tucker
On Feb 20, 7:07 am, Jim Wilkins <kb1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 20, 2:31 am, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...@vianet.on.ca> wrote:
> > ...
> > The man who perfects the road will own the world :-).
> > Ken
>
> And his name will be Hadrian,
Ya certainly got respect Romans, 2000 years later many roads still
work well, here's a sectional,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_roads#Via_munita
But that 'looks' expensive.
> Some of the northern US states can maintain fine, smooth roads despite
> the damaging climate. Traffic is low enough outside the tourist
> seasons to permit repaving one lane at a time.
We've driven around continental USofA in our Chevrolet a few times and
found the interstates very good, though we usually take the 2 laners
to site see.
Buffalo in the late 70's was a bit hairy, either dodge pot-holes or
get
new shocks.
> When I was in Germany some old and heavily-travelled sections of the
> Autobahn such as around Frankfurt were in terrible condition. The
> bridges were too short to allow a temporary lane to divert traffic
> around the one being paved. Newer sections were far better.
>
> It was almost physically sickening to drive a lightly loaded Army
> truck at top speed (still too slow) over the rough broken concrete. I
> was always happy to catch a flight even when the pilot demonstrated
> hot combat landings to try to shake me up.
Yeah driving on a bumpy road is like flying a Cessna in turbulence for
a few hours.
I would describe that as 'inner ear fatigue', sea sickness is another,
that makes one feel a bit queasy.
Ken
PS: Did you get fair treatment from the army?
Jim Wilkins
> a few hours.
At least the Cessna 152 had seat cushions. The truck had canvas over
plywood.
> Ken
> PS: Did you get fair treatment from the army?
I did but my situation was unusual, a repairman for critical
communications equipment that never broke, so I was on call 24/7 but
couldn't be assigned to most extra duty tasks. Thus I was also the
post photographer, helped with the USO, went on cultural-exchange
trips, (this was southern Germany), worked on vehicles in the motor
pool, pretty much whatever I wanted to do as long as I could drop it
quickly.
The network's field sites also had a lot of commercial equipment like
modems that broke often and kept me fairly busy.
When aircraft were available such as the DH Otter or the LOH
helicopter it was kind of fun being an NCO ferried around by an
officer pilot, or two with one hooded and learning IFR. Getting lost
under a 100' ceiling and nearly straying across the Iron Curtain was
less fun. OTOH for late night calls I just hopped in my Beetle and
drove around a foreign country in the dark.
Germany was great but I speak German (and French) well enough to get
around, which is likely why I wasn't sent to Vietnam. Most GIs didn't
and disliked the place.
jsw
deem...@aol.com
I'm sure most preferred Germany to Vietnam......
>
> jsw
Jim Wilkins
> ...
> I'm sure most preferred Germany to Vietnam......
Not at all. I was the witness when several re-enlisted so they could
return to Saigon. These were Army Signal Corps headquarters and comm
center personnel who only fight in bars, and then not well. Their
explanation was that in Vietnam all Americans were the same color, the
green of dollars. They felt like they had been promoted to white guy.
In Germany they returned to being black or Puerto Rican etc when they
went off the base. On base you could find tolerance or tension
according to your preference.
In Heidelberg I had a Mexican buddy with a Dodge Charger who liked to
take us all downtown partying until the bars closed at 3 AM, then we
knew some waitresses upstairs..... I'd been to college so I could
function with a hangover and 2 hours sleep.
But he was the exception, usually GIs stayed away from a culture they
didn't understand, even in one of the world's great college party
towns. The Germans were pleasant enough in most cases but outside of
the cities few spoke English and they didn't really need our money.
They were surprised and much friendlier when I spoke my poor German.
I've heard that the Air Force got along better with them. Comments?
jsw
Andrew Chaplin
6f870f...@q29g2000yqn.googlegroups.com:
> But he was the exception, usually GIs stayed away from a culture they
> didn't understand, even in one of the world's great college party
> towns. The Germans were pleasant enough in most cases but outside of
> the cities few spoke English and they didn't really need our money.
> They were surprised and much friendlier when I spoke my poor German.
>
> I've heard that the Air Force got along better with them. Comments?
Very, very different approach to that of Canadians in Southwestern Germany.
We volunteered then were screeened to see if we were suited to the task
(very low bar to get over, mind you). Typical tours were four years, and
accompanied by D and some F&E. We were out on the economy as soon as we
could, if only because "single men in barracks don't grow into plaster
saints." One major problem was that the posting cycle meant that the
dependents arrived just as hubby was headed out on FALLEX. I was lucky
enough to be sent as a single 18-year-old and to have a 40mm Bofors to
attend to on Flugplatz Lahr--I got to learn all about good pilsners and
lagers back when the DM was 2.4 to the Canadian dollar and beer was 75
pfennings.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
Ken S. Tucker
> On Feb 20, 3:34 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...@vianet.on.ca> wrote:
> > Yeah driving on a bumpy road is like flying a Cessna in turbulence for
> > a few hours.
>
> At least the Cessna 152 had seat cushions. The truck had canvas over
> plywood.
Jim, you're the type with a boney bum, ya could have brought a
cushion.
> > Ken
> > PS: Did you get fair treatment from the army?
>
> I did but my situation was unusual, a repairman for critical
> communications equipment that never broke, so I was on call 24/7 but
> couldn't be assigned to most extra duty tasks. Thus I was also the
> post photographer, helped with the USO, went on cultural-exchange
> trips, (this was southern Germany), worked on vehicles in the motor
> pool, pretty much whatever I wanted to do as long as I could drop it
> quickly.
I work as a civilian ET.
> The network's field sites also had a lot of commercial equipment like
> modems that broke often and kept me fairly busy.
> When aircraft were available such as the DH Otter or the LOH
> helicopter it was kind of fun being an NCO ferried around by an
> officer pilot, or two with one hooded and learning IFR. Getting lost
> under a 100' ceiling and nearly straying across the Iron Curtain was
> less fun. OTOH for late night calls I just hopped in my Beetle and
> drove around a foreign country in the dark.
> Germany was great but I speak German (and French) well enough to get
> around, which is likely why I wasn't sent to Vietnam. Most GIs didn't
> and disliked the place.
> jsw
Thanks Jim
Ken
Dan
<snip>
>
>
Extra terrestrial?
Andrew Chaplin
> Ken S. Tucker wrote:
> <snip>
>>
>> I work as a civilian ET.
>
> Extra terrestrial?
Extra testicle.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
deem...@aol.com
wrote:
> Dan <B24...@aol.com> wrote innews:wM9gn.1901$jB5...@newsfe19.iad:
>
> > Ken S. Tucker wrote:
> > <snip>
>
> >> I work as a civilian ET.
>
> > Extra terrestrial?
>
> Extra testicle.
So, would that be three......or one?
Andrew Chaplin
9abe-698...@j27g2000yqn.googlegroups.com:
As my father taught me to respond when faced with a dilemma, "Yes."
Dan
One if he's alone, three if he's with a friend.
Ken S. Tucker
wrote:
> Dan <B24...@aol.com> wrote innews:wM9gn.1901$jB5...@newsfe19.iad:
>
> > Ken S. Tucker wrote:
> > <snip>
>
> >> I work as a civilian ET.
>
> > Extra terrestrial?
>
> Extra testicle.
Extraordinarily Talented, needed to be to interface between what the
customer wanted and what the EE's supplied.
(Electronic Techinian & Electronic Engineer), needed balls of steel,
to keep things rolling.
Ken
Jim Wilkins
> ...
> Extraordinarily Talented, needed to be to interface between what the
> customer wanted and what the EE's supplied.
> (Electronic Techinian & Electronic Engineer), needed balls of steel,
> to keep things rolling.
> Ken
You are not helping the reputation of technicians. Whether the
customer miscommunicates or the engineer misunderstands, whatever goes
wrong is all our fault. We need the discipline to remain reasonable
and cooperative, not confrontational.
A sense of humor helps:
http://www.messybeast.com/dragonqueen/ground-crew.htm
jsw
Ken S. Tucker
> http://www.messybeast.com/dragonqueen/ground-crew.htm
> jsw
LOL, Jim we had a serious laff reading that.
I was assigned to upgrade an Ultrascanner, so it could go to
higher frequencies, given a packet of procedure, and informed
it was a 4 hour job.
The Dr. (a Chinese guy) informs me this is so he could do penis
scans better, makes sense, ultrasounding penis's, prior to that
I tuned for liver's and uterus's, which are deeper, but a penis
scan with higher frequency gets improved detail.
I open the package and the dang schematics are scruffy and
the procedure is involved, so I phone tech support and they
tell me it takes two experienced engineers to do that upgarade
a day in the factory.
So I inform Dr. Penis, I'll need 2 days minimum, well he freaks
and you know how chinks can get emotional and starts balling
me out about he can't do his penis scans, in front of nurses,
they were containing their smirks.
Dr. Penis phones management, management phones me, I
direct management to tech support, I make up an excuse to
cover management, I was fall guy, because I was new.
Anyway, 48 hours later Dr. Penis was KYing penis's and having
a good time and was very pleased with my work.
Shooked my hand, patted me on the back, happy customer.
I came out with overtime, and a padded expense account.
Ken
Dan
Let's see, you are a racist, semi literate, manure salesman with a
mouthful of samples, correct?
Ken S. Tucker
US makes the best stuff, chinks and japs is 3rd, 2nd, I'm 1st class,
you got a problem with that?
Ken
Dan
A first class what? You are Canadian.
WaltBJ
> "deemsb...@aol.com" <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote innews:e801f0ab-24b2-453b...@f29g2000yqa.googlegroups.com:
>
> [snip]
>
> > Why would a sane 21 or 104 pilot want to dogfight?
>
> I wasn't aware there was such an animal. Sane '21 or '104
> driver that is.
I beg to differ. Loved the 104. As for any other fighter, they were
targets.
Walt BJ
cavedweller
ssshhhhhh....other Canadians are trying to keep that kind of quiet.
Dan
Have you tried staking him out for the polar bears? If not, please
don't, it would be hard on the polar bears.
Ken S. Tucker
A few chink friends of mine are ultra smart, running Chinese Food
Restaurants. A fella named Bing taught me how to use an abacus,
back in the 60's, and fostered my interest in digital electronics.
Impressed the crap out of the teacher when I demo'd it for the
class.
Maybe I'm racist, but I find chinks make the best Chinese Food,
but that could be a coincidence.
There was a wop who made great chink food and a canuck who
made great pizza, so it's not a racists thing, and greeks who
made great burgers, but the yanks make the best hogy's,
and Buffalo Wings, if they're New Yorkers.
Ken
Ken S. Tucker
> > Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
> A few chink friends of mine are ultra smart, running Chinese Food
> Restaurants. A fella named Bing taught me how to use an abacus,
> back in the 60's, and fostered my interest in digital electronics.
> Impressed the crap out of the teacher when I demo'd it for the
> class.
> Maybe I'm racist, but I find chinks make the best Chinese Food,
> but that could be a coincidence.
> There was a wop who made great chink food and a canuck who
> made great pizza, so it's not a racists thing, and greeks who
> made great burgers, but the yanks make the best hogy's,
> and Buffalo Wings, if they're New Yorkers.
> Ken
For Dan, wife suggest's a topping for ya, it's called.
'Cream of Som Yung Guy" soup.
Ken
Dan
Don't let anyone ever accuse you of being a gentleman.
Jeffrey Hamilton
Well like, a hoser, eh !
cheers.....Jeff
Joe Osman
wrote:
> On Feb 17, 8:36 am, Jim Wilkins <kb1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 16, 11:50 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...@vianet.on.ca> wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 16, 3:33 pm, Jim Wilkins <kb1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > ...
> > > We don't have that technology. Falcon's are supposed able to spot
> > > a mouse at 2 miles, and close for a snack off the ground.
> > ...
> > > Ken
>
> > Nope, our only superior physical hunting ability is running down game
> > in hot climates, because they overheat sooner. When I was young I
> > could run my dog to exhaustion, for example. Once I had to carry him
> > back.
>
> > They don't have our skills either, though some animals can learn. We
> > fixed up a Segway and taught a bear to ride it, pretty well too.http://www.clarkstradingpost.com/news.php
>
> > jsw
>
> I recall something about old footprints they found in Africa
> suggesting an early human hunting tactic was to do just that. Stampede
> and drive animals, til they collapsed.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
There was a Discovery program recently ("Becoming Human") where thay
claimed that about Homo Erectus about 2 million years ago. Thay also
estimated (using genetic testing of human lice) that hominids started
losing their hair about 3 million years ago for better cooling.
Joe