Pilot's and Gloves?
Marcel Fuchs
Does anybody know why military fighter pilot's allways wear gloves?
I mean, don't they have a heater in the cockpit?
THX Mike
NAv8or
Mike, we wear gloves because we are told to.
Actually, it isn't due to heat/cold. The things are pretty useless for warmth
or comfort. What they are very good for, provided one takes care of them, is
keeping flames off your hands in event of fire. NOMEX (a special sort of nylon
weave) may not be much good for winter wear, but it is great at flame
retardance/resistance.
Flightsuits are made from the same material. The gloves also have soft leather
on the gripping surfaces, because the nylon alone would not provide the pilot
enough friction to manipulate things otherwise.
gbf
gbf
Marcel Fuchs wrote in message <76tjmk$f4...@news-sol.swissonline.ch>...
Jon
The gloves keep oils, sweat, and other fun stuff off of the control surfaces, CRT's, and buttons. Which can cause component failure, wear/tear, smudged screens, etc. They also provide a better grip in case you start to sweat or get clammy, both of which are pretty usual in the wonderful not-so-climate-contolled atmosphere of the cockpit. =)
Spook
JJ
Marcel Fuchs wrote in message <76tjmk$f4...@news-sol.swissonline.ch>...
Dave Sutton
> Marcel Fuchs wrote:
> >
> > Hi Folks
> >
> > Does anybody know why military fighter pilot's allways wear gloves?
> > I mean, don't they have a heater in the cockpit?
> >
> > THX Mike
>
>
> threat that they all face. Look at it, their flying suits are made out
> of Nomex, their flying jackets are made out of Nomex and so are their
> gloves, admittedly the palms of the gloves are made out of some form of
> cape leather but that's to ensure that they retain dexterity and retain
> the 'feel' that they require.
Roger that. A flash-fire burning the back of your hands can make it
impossible to do the slightest thing, like release a buckle. The hands
have a very high concentration of nerves and muscles, and when
burned you are worthless. Protect them and you can still assist yourself.
Nomex gives just enough protection for a quick fire, they are not fire
protectant for long term exposure, just flash fires. I actually prefer the all
leather RAF gloves to the USAF nomex, but that is just personal preference.
Dave Sutton pil...@planet.net
Yak-50, Fouga Magister, DeHavilland Vampire, MiG-17
"There is no substitute for horsepower...."
Ed MacNeil
Nomex tops and leather palms was a result of accident experience.
Leather tends to shrink when exposed to fire. Some aviators exposed to fires
reported that the gloves shrank to the extent of limiting use of fingers. Nomex
does not perform this way and the combination of Nomex and leather has proved to
be a very good compromise.
Ed Mac Neil
Ancient Aviator
North Hampton, NH , USA
Retired USAF Accident Investigator
Groundplant
coverage keeps my fingers from freezing all the time.
NAv8or <nav...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990105142904...@ng100.aol.com...
>>Hi Folks
>>
>>Does anybody know why military fighter pilot's allways wear gloves?
>>
>>I mean, don't they have a heater in the cockpit?
>>
>>THX Mike
>>
>
Brian Varine
>
> >> Does anybody know why military fighter pilot's allways wear gloves?
>
> aircrew wear them as well ;)
>
> So do all USAF aviation types. For what its worth, I take mine off whenever
> we're going from one event to another (ex. in between A/R and low level) just
> so I can scratch my nose :) I'm not sure what it would be like to wear them
> for 10+ hours ?
So do Army Tank Crews. Only theirs have black leather and the sage green
is OD.
Dave Stein
> cold. As a Brunswick and Whidbey Island guy, I should know...
He probably wears them as an ultra thin liner under regular gloves and
then if he needs to pull off his big gloves to get to something small at
least he's not barefingered (I do the same with my ski gloves and a thin
liner glove).
--
We are now no longer The Knights Who Say NI! ('ni' *shh!
We are now The Knights Who Say... shh!*)
'Acky Acky Acky Acky Ftang ZOOMP boing! (gnzheauzheu)'
(ni)
-Knights Who Until Recently Said NI!
Dave Stein
> > > gloves, admittedly the palms of the gloves are made out of some form of
> > >
Are they an all Nomex glove with leather added or actually half and
half?
Dave Stein
Groundplant
>Are you using aviator's Nomex gloves for warmth? Military issues leather
overs
>with wool liners and various other types which are much better for the
>purpose... The flight gloves we are issued provide minimal protection from
the
>cold. As a Brunswick and Whidbey Island guy, I should know...
Yep, one in the same <Sage green w/ grey lambskin<?> on the palm face>, they
are plenty warm enough down to about 35f until they get soaked, but hell,
any glove doesn't really work well then. We mainly use them because of the
dexterity needed that the black glove shells and liners don't give. When
wearing both, it is difficult at best to get your finger inside the trigger
gaurd, let alone flip the selector lever to fire. That doesn't even mention
switching radio freqs, writing OPORDs/WARNORDs, using rope/line in any
number of circumstances. they are the best bet for us, until it gets REALLY
cold, hehehe, then we just use our AirForce gloves <pockets>, as long as
noone is looking anyways.
SSG Wardle
US Army Infantry
9 Years and counting
Groundplant
Dave Stein <dave....@oakweb.com> wrote in message
news:3692FC...@oakweb.com...
>x, their flying jackets are made out of Nomex and so are their
>> > > gloves, admittedly the palms of the gloves are made out of some form
of
>> > >
>
>Are they an all Nomex glove with leather added or actually half and
>half?
Passmore
Dave Stein wrote:
>
> x, their flying jackets are made out of Nomex and so are their
> > > > gloves, admittedly the palms of the gloves are made out of some form of
> > > >
>
> Are they an all Nomex glove with leather added or actually half and
> half?
All the flight gloves I've seen/been issued/worn were either grey or
black kid leather palms and finger fronts with Nomex around the back of
the hand and the other 3/4ths of the fingers. As others have said, they
are good for warmth until about the end of September when they are just
about useless for that role.. still, they're good for rolling out AGE or
other odd jobs to keep your hands (relatively) clean and cut-free :)
--
Jason Passmore
pass...@micronet.net
http://www.micronet.net/users/~beavis2/
Mike & Mel Kelly
>
> Hi Folks
>
>
>
> THX Mike
I would imagine that it has something to do with the possible fire
threat that they all face. Look at it, their flying suits are made out
of Nomex, their flying jackets are made out of Nomex and so are their
gloves, admittedly the palms of the gloves are made out of some form of
NATrainer
knukles
The North American Trainer Association is a (501)[c]3 association dedicated to
the restoration, preservation and safe flying of all North American Aviation
built trainer aircraft (AT-6, SNJ, Harvard, NA-64, T-28, TF-51, TB-25). Dues
are $45.00 per year US
wal...@oneimage.com
>USAF used to issue leather gloves much like those used by the RAF. The switch to>Nomex tops and leather palms was a result of accident experience.
>
>Leather tends to shrink when exposed to fire. Some aviators exposed to fires
>reported that the gloves shrank to the extent of limiting use of fingers. Nomex
>does not perform this way and the combination of Nomex and leather has proved to
>be a very good compromise.
Correct; to prevent hand incapacitation in event of fire. And up North, to keep
your fingers flexible. At Thule at -40C/F (same-samo) we wore winter gloves with
knit woollen liners. The ground crew also wore gloves to keep their fingers from
freezing to the aircraft, etc.
FWIW I have a colleague who had a main gear snap on takeoff in a Deuce with full
wing tanks. He slid off the runway, sldi across a drainage ditch, and came to a stop
in a wide puddle of burning JP4. he had to run out through the fire because the fire
trucks couldn't get there quickly (not that he was going to wait for them). His hands
and neck were badly burned and still well-scarred when he got back on flying status.
That was in the leather-glove days.
BTW, the neatest winter gloves I saw were those issued to the USN P3 crews transiting
Thule. They were lined with thin wet-suit material, I believe. lots warmer than our old
Korean War issue types.
Gloves were like flying suits; one couldn;t go by the marked size; you had to try them
on for fit. One other comment that just struck me; sun burn. The sun at 45000 is one heck
of a lot stronger than at ground level . .
Walt BJ ftr plt ret
BUFDRVR
Just so I won't dissapoint everyone who knew this post was coming........Bomber
aircrew wear them as well ;)
So do all USAF aviation types. For what its worth, I take mine off whenever
we're going from one event to another (ex. in between A/R and low level) just
so I can scratch my nose :) I'm not sure what it would be like to wear them
for 10+ hours ?
BUFDRVR
"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"
Matt
> impossible to do the slightest thing, like release a buckle. The hands
> have a very high concentration of nerves and muscles, and when
> burned you are worthless. Protect them and you can still assist yourself.
> Nomex gives just enough protection for a quick fire, they are not fire
> protectant for long term exposure, just flash fires. I actually prefer
the all
> leather RAF gloves to the USAF nomex, but that is just personal
preference.
I fly and drive in RAF gloves, it makes it a lot easier though drive with
I've found...
Donnell Miller
When i was a butterbar navigator at Travis in 63 or 64, We had a
monthly flying safety meeting. At one of those meetings A BG (i think)
or a Bull Col) Wearing a garrison cap dark glasses and flying gloves,
got up and started to ask questions about who went flying with sleaves
rolled up? without gloves? filght jackets? etc. "just a show of hands,
guys."
He then proceeded to recount his experience in a T-33 at Scott AFB. He
was in the back seat i believe. Lost engine about the end of RW. Other
guy died in the crash an fire. he ended in a ditch full of burning fuel.
He some how got out of the fire. He spent many months or several years
at the Brooks AFB burn Center. He then recounted all he could remember
about the accident: hot summer morning, flight jacket to hot; leave it
off. rolled up sleaves on nylon flight suit, lost his gloves somewhere,
helmet on visors up, chin strap un fastened.
The general then removed his gloves, pushed up his sleeve and showed
us his injuries, which I will not recount. We still wore the nylon
flight suits in those days. It Melts.
I never forgot that object lesson, and except for a period flying pax I
always did the right thing. gloves jacket later gloves jacket and helmet
visor (down).
I ended my career with the same number of landinsd as take offs (thanks
guys)
The General was from the IL ANG I believe. Thats how I remember the
story.
Sir. If your out there: THANK YOU.
Don Miller
Capt USAF Ret
WGWSO\NAV Ret
Marcel Fuchs wrote:
>
> Hi Folks
>
> Does anybody know why military fighter pilot's allways wear gloves?
>
NAv8or
>I use them to great effect in the Infantry, just that added little bit of
>coverage keeps my fingers from freezing all the time.
Are you using aviator's Nomex gloves for warmth? Military issues leather overs
Gord Beaman
>Actually, they are quite good when driving a car too!
>
>JJ
>
>Marcel Fuchs wrote in message <76tjmk$f4...@news-sol.swissonline.ch>...
>>Hi Folks
>>
>>Does anybody know why military fighter pilot's allways wear gloves?
>>
>>I mean, don't they have a heater in the cockpit?
>>
>>THX Mike
>>
>>
As someone mentions later, fire protection. The RCAF issued them to
bomber crews, (at least in peacetime service), very thin, fine leather
with a nylon insert, excellent quality. I wore only the leather shell
to keep my hands clean...it's amazing how dirty your hands get after
handling aluminum throttles for 18 - 20 hours.
--
Gord Beaman
PEI, Canada
MLenoch
> Sir. If your out there: THANK YOU.
The General is still around. I don't recall his name; some of my friends know
him. I just saw him at Las Vegas a few years ago at the ICAS (airshow)
convention.
V. Lenoch
Scott Chan
threads used to attach patches on their Nomex suits. Seems that
sometimes
folks inadvertently use nylon thread or labels (instead of cotton),
which can cause nasty burns even on a Nomex suit.
If you have embroidered lettering or logos on your suit, make sure it's
not nylon thread... you could get a burned-in tattoo with your or your
sponsor's name on it.
To check, snip a small thread and hold it to a flame. If it chars into
ash, its probably cotton; if it burns or melts, its probably nylon or
some other nasty substance.
*this obviously applies to anyone wearing fire suits, e.g., pit crews,
aviators, firefighters
--
Scott
Boyce G. Williams, Jr.
>I use them to great effect in the Infantry, just that added little bit of
>coverage keeps my fingers from freezing all the time.
I had a pair as liners in case I had to remove the heavy leather
shells while working around the planes in winter, but still needed the
flexability and (sometimes) sentivity. It made the difference between
freezing your fingers off as soon as you take the shells and liners
off and touch bare metal or have a couple minutes grace time to do
your job and get the shells back on before your fingers freeze.
Boyce G. Williams, Jr.
.--------------------------------------------------------------------.
| "People should have two virtues: purpose- the courage to envisage |
| and pursue valued goals uninhibited by the defeat of infantile |
| fantasies, by guilt and the failing fear punishment; and wisdom- a|
| detached concern with life itself, in the face of death itself." |
| Norman F. Dixon|
'--------------------------------------------------------------------'
Boyce G. Williams, Jr.
>Are they an all Nomex glove with leather added or actually half and
>half?
The pair I own from my Air Force days was Nomex with leather strips
sewn over the palm and finger grips.
Jeff Rankin-Lowe
Scott Chan wrote:
One of the times I renewed my CAF "high altitude indoctrination" (HAI)
course, they showed a number of slides designed to make people see whay
safety equipment and its correct use are good things.
There were a number of slides of aircrew who had cut the fingers off their
Nomex gloves so they could better feel the HOTAS controls. They had nasty
burns only where the skin was left unprotected (i.e. their fingers and
thumb.).
Another slide showed a foot with a burn from just above the toes up to the
lower shin. That person had replaced the laces in his boots with an insert
that used a zipper. The small fire that he ejected through was still enough
to heat the metal zipper enough to burn skin through a wool sock.
A similar situation was behind another slide. That pilot didn't wear his
Nomex jacket's or flightsuit's collar turned up at the back of his neck. He
ejected through a fireball and the exposed skin on the back of his neck
received a rather nasty burn.
I don't need further reminders to wear Nomex gloves, flightsuits, and
jackets when I fly. The gloves are very supple and I have no trouble
changing film while wearing them. As someone else pointed out, they also
make great driving gloves.
Jeff Rankin-Lowe
Mary Shafer
> There were a number of slides of aircrew who had cut the fingers off
> their Nomex gloves so they could better feel the HOTAS
> controls. They had nasty burns only where the skin was left
> unprotected (i.e. their fingers and thumb.).
Years and years ago, Fred Haise (of Apollo 13 fame, who started with
NASA as a test pilot at Dryden) came here and gave a talk to the
mechanics and technicians (plus anyone else who wanted to attend, as
many of us end up on the flightline some time in our careers) about
the necessity of wearing Nomex around aircraft. He had been flying a
restored aircraft which quit on him. There was a fire in the cockpit
before he got out. He showed us his scars--a narrow strip on each
wrist where his flight suit didn't quite meet his glove, the back of
his neck--all the usual. His burns were really very minor but they
had been excruciatingly painful.
I noticed that after that talk, most of the mechs wore Nomex overall
over their clothes on the flightline and the pilots did a lot more
zipping and arranging before engine start. I know I never forgot it
and always, without fail, snug the wrists of my flightsuit over my
gloves, zip up the neck, and turn up the collar as soon as I'm in the
seat and the pilot is starting on the checklist. So what if it's hot
in the cockpit out on the ramp in the desert sun? A fire would be a
lot hotter.
--
Mary Shafer NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, CA
SR-71 Flying Qualities Lead Engineer Of course I don't speak for NASA
sha...@reseng.dfrc.nasa.gov DoD #362 KotFR
URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html
For personal messages, please use sha...@ursa-major.spdcc.com
Paul J. Adam
<nav...@aol.com> writes
>"Groundplant" wrote:
>>I use them to great effect in the Infantry, just that added little bit of
>>coverage keeps my fingers from freezing all the time.
>
>with wool liners and various other types which are much better for the
>purpose...
Yeah, but try fastening a magazine pouch one-handed wearing them, or
getting them on and off in a hurry.
> The flight gloves we are issued provide minimal protection from the
>cold.
Better than bare hands, trust me.
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...
Paul J. Adam pa...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk
Mike & Mel Kelly
especially if you make sure that you've got the right size. Sounds like
a lack of co-ordination
Paul J. Adam
<M_MK...@xtra.co.nz> writes
>I've never had any problems fastening my pouches with them on,
>especially if you make sure that you've got the right size.
The US ones I acquired were fine for length, but very loose around the
fingers, so the tips slopped around. The seams didn't help much either.
I wore them and liked them on my motorbike, though. Good heavy leather,
and loose enough to put a liner under in winter.
>Sounds like
>a lack of co-ordination
<Shrug> I had a lot less trouble once I got issued a set of NI gloves.
John Hairell
In article <3692D5...@worldnet.att.net>, donnel...@worldnet.att.net says...
>
In the late 1970's one of the US Army's top aviation safety people was an aviator who had
undergone tremendous burn injuries in Vietnam. When the man with the pink, bald head, melted
ears, and webbed fingers spoke about the proper use of Nomex, people listened.
John Hairell (jhai...@pop200.gsfc.nasa.gov)