30mm casing from A10 toxic?
kur...@my-deja.com
Now, I'm hearing a lot of things about the use of depleted uranium in these
rounds and I'm getting a little concerned. Could the casing itself be toxic?
The printing on the casing says: 30 mm TP PGU 15/B What does this mean?
Possibly, the 'TP' stands for 'Target Practice' and therefor not with DU. Am
I assuming correctly? And even if it were a casing from a DU casing, would
there then be any danger?
thanks for the feedback,
Kurt
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
kur...@my-deja.com
Now, I'm hearing a lot of things about the use of depleted uranium in
these rounds and I'm getting a little
concerned. Could the casing itself be toxic?
The printing on the casing says:
30 mm TP PGU 15/B
What does this mean? Possibly, the 'TP' stands for 'Target Practice'
and therefor no DU in this particular round. Am I
assuming correctly? And even if it were a DU round casing, would there
then be any danger?
t
Jeff Heidman
Even if the current BS about the danger of depleted uranium is
something more than the BS it appears to be, you are in no danger.
The only concern is with rounds that have been fired and hit something,
causing them to burn and break apart. The shell casing is perfectly
safe, no matter what kind of round it originally was.
Jeff Heidman
Paul J. Adam
>A few years ago, I bougt a spent 30 mm round from an A10 at an air show.
>
>Now, I'm hearing a lot of things about the use of depleted uranium in these
>rounds and I'm getting a little concerned. Could the casing itself be toxic?
No.
>The printing on the casing says: 30 mm TP PGU 15/B What does this mean?
>Possibly, the 'TP' stands for 'Target Practice' and therefor not with DU. Am
>I assuming correctly?
I believe so, yes.
>And even if it were a casing from a DU casing, would
>there then be any danger?
No. DU is toxic, like lead, and an alpha radiation emitter. DU
penetrators are covered with a thin coating of a different metal, which
both seals the toxic metal inside and also stops the alpha radiation.
The potential hazard from DU rounds is _after_ they have been fired at a
target, hit something hard, broken up and spread fragments and dust
which may then be inhaled or ingested. Your inert TP round should be no
more dangerous than any other bullet.
>thanks for the feedback,
Hope this helps.
--
There are four kinds of homicide: praiseworthy, justifiable, excusable and
felonious...
Paul J. Adam ne...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk
npw...@my-deja.com
Jeff Heidman <jhei...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <942fc1$e2p$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> kur...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > A few years ago, I bougt a spent 30 mm round from an A10 at an air
> show.
> >
> > Now, I'm hearing a lot of things about the use of depleted uranium
in
> > these rounds and I'm getting a little
> > concerned. Could the casing itself be toxic?
DU is safe. Uranium oxide is not. Unless you've got A-10 shell
fragments from a live round, or material from a target hit with live
rounds, you're safe. Only when the DU strikes a hard object at high
velocity do you get toxic residue from the DU combusting.
> >
> > The printing on the casing says:
> > 30 mm TP PGU 15/B
> > What does this mean? Possibly, the 'TP' stands for 'Target
Practice'
> > and therefor no DU in this particular round. Am I
> > assuming correctly? And even if it were a DU round casing, would
> there
> > then be any danger?
> >
>
> Even if the current BS about the danger of depleted uranium is
> something more than the BS it appears to be, you are in no danger.
I agree, but see above. DU danger is BS, but burnt DU is another
issue. An expert on heavy metal poisoning could tell you more. I have
heard an "expert" (i.e. doctor enlisted by the press) call DU
oxide "very toxic within the human body", whatever that means. Is that
contact, inhaled, or swallowed? And does that mean you'll die, get
degenerative joint disease, or just a rash? I don't know, but whatever
the case, discretion is the better part of valor.
N. Wilde
Yeff
kur...@my-deja.com<kur...@my-deja.com> wrote in
rec.aviation.military:
> The printing on the casing says: 30 mm TP PGU 15/B What does this mean?
> Possibly, the 'TP' stands for 'Target Practice' and therefor not with DU.
I don't believe it's DU. See
http://www.atk.com/conmun/descriptions/munitioncards/pgu-15.htm
-Jeff B.
yeff at erols dot com
Keith Willshaw
<kur...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:942fc1$e2p$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Just apply a coat of lacquer.
That'll effectively stop any radiation even if it is DU
If you are really concerned about Radiation get a Radon
check done on your house
Keith
Keith Willshaw
<npw...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:942j0g$hgn$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <942h0c$fl4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Jeff Heidman <jhei...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > In article <942fc1$e2p$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > kur...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > A few years ago, I bougt a spent 30 mm round from an A10 at an air
> > show.
> > >
> > > Now, I'm hearing a lot of things about the use of depleted uranium
> in
> > > these rounds and I'm getting a little
> > > concerned. Could the casing itself be toxic?
>
> DU is safe. Uranium oxide is not. Unless you've got A-10 shell
> fragments from a live round, or material from a target hit with live
> rounds, you're safe. Only when the DU strikes a hard object at high
> velocity do you get toxic residue from the DU combusting.
>
There's little differenve in the risk between Uranium oxide
and the metallic form save that the metal is inflammable
Either is dangerous in the form of fine particles
> > >
> > > The printing on the casing says:
> > > 30 mm TP PGU 15/B
> > > What does this mean? Possibly, the 'TP' stands for 'Target
> Practice'
> > > and therefor no DU in this particular round. Am I
> > > assuming correctly? And even if it were a DU round casing, would
> > there
> > > then be any danger?
> > >
> >
> > Even if the current BS about the danger of depleted uranium is
> > something more than the BS it appears to be, you are in no danger.
>
> I agree, but see above. DU danger is BS, but burnt DU is another
> issue. An expert on heavy metal poisoning could tell you more. I have
> heard an "expert" (i.e. doctor enlisted by the press) call DU
> oxide "very toxic within the human body", whatever that means. Is that
> contact, inhaled, or swallowed? And does that mean you'll die, get
> degenerative joint disease, or just a rash? I don't know, but whatever
> the case, discretion is the better part of valor.
>
The main clinical presentation is Kidney failure, however neither
Uranium metal or Uranium Oxide are easilt absorbed by the
body
Keith
Ealanier
total darkness pull the film out about one foot or so and wrap it around the
spent 30 mm casing and film cartridge. Put this setup in a light tight box for
a few weeks and again in total darkness rewind the film in to the cartridge to
be developed. The film should come out without fogging.
Tony Williams
I have a GAU-8/A round in my collection, complete with DU projectile.
A couple of years back I had it checked with a geiger counter, out of
curiosity. Not a blip. You have to remember that the DU is not out in
the open, but is encased in a light-alloy sheath. I'm told that's
enough to stop any alpha particles from the DU.
--
Tony Williams
New book: Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy
Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces.
Details on my website:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/
Erik T. Viking
Absolutely correct about the TP designation. You have a Target Round.
Only the PGU-14/B API uses DU. (See http://www.fas.org/man/dod-
101/sys/ac/equip/gau-8.htm)
Since it's a private firm that produces these rounds, it's cheaper to
order virgin casings from them than to collect spent casings. So check
your casing for scratch marks to prove it was fired in the first case.
If you would have a fired DU round which had been at the impact area,
it would be sufficient to clean it thoroughly and wash your hands
immediately afterwards to get rid of the Uranium dust. But these rounds
are not recognizable as 30mm shells and therefore not sold at airshows.
They have only sentimental value for soldiers that 'were there'.
Note that one A-10A crashed in a civilian area in Germany with PGU-14/B
rounds loaded. This is probably the only case were intact ammo could
pose a health risk.
Summarizing, your round is not toxic.
Erik
--
"Sorry, no quote!"
Mary Shafer
> I have a GAU-8/A round in my collection, complete with DU projectile.
> A couple of years back I had it checked with a geiger counter, out of
> curiosity. Not a blip. You have to remember that the DU is not out in
> the open, but is encased in a light-alloy sheath. I'm told that's
> enough to stop any alpha particles from the DU.
A used paper lunch bag is enough to stop the alpha radiation from DU,
so light-alloy sheathes are probably much more than enough. I've got
an A-10 dummy round, plus some brass, and I asked our Safety people
about it and they told me that there was no safety problem even if it
was DU, so long as it didn't have powder in it.
Supposedly, the extra radiation you get from the bones of your
sleeping partner if you share a bed with someone is a bigger risk to
your health than the radiation you get from DU, even unshielded. It's
also a bigger health risk than the extra radiation you're exposed to
on a high altitude transcontinental US flight or transatlantic flight.
The first is because DU puts out alpha particles and bone minerals put
out something stronger (beta or gamma) and the second is because the
gamma radiation at altitude isn't as strong or the exposure as long.
--
Mary Shafer Senior Handling Qualities Research Engineer
sha...@orville.dfrc.nasa.gov
NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, CA
Of course I don't speak for NASA
Asbjörn Nejman
>
> Supposedly, the extra radiation you get from the bones of your
> sleeping partner if you share a bed with someone is a bigger risk to
> your health than the radiation you get from DU, even unshielded. It's
Oh my GOD!!
Darling, you're outta here!
Asbjorn :-)
--
Remove .is to answer by e-mail.
Emmanuel Gustin
> Now, I'm hearing a lot of things about the use of depleted uranium in
these
> rounds and I'm getting a little concerned. Could the casing itself be
toxic?
Well, I suppose that residues of unburnt or partially burned
propellant in the case might be toxic. Those are reactive
chemicals and long-term exposure might certainly be
a health risk...
> And even if it were a casing from a DU casing, would there then be
> any danger?
There should be no DU contamination on the case. The DU is
contained in the projectile, and problems can only occur at the
target, where the projectile is shattered or even liquified and
burnt in air. Maybe you are worried about the case having
become radioactive by irradiation from DU. But the radiation
from DU probably would not even reach the case, and even if
it did it would not have that effect. Yes, materials /can/ become
radioactive themselves when irradiated -- it happens in nuclear
reactors -- but that is mostly due to strong irradiation with
neutrons.
The radiation from DU is alpha-emission: Heavy, slow particles
that are easily stopped by even the most nominal shielding
(paint, tin foil, paper) or by air. Therefore there is radiation risk
only if DU particles enter your body, i.e. if you breathe air
contaminated with DU dust, or eat the stuff --- which means
that people should wear gloves when handling the bare metal
or wash their hands afterwards. Its toxicity is the greater danger,
the radiation risk probably exists (and there is no reason to stake
stupid risks) but is undocumented and negligibly small compared
to flying or taking a holiday in Switzerland.
BTW, most of the fuss about supposed secret Pentagon / British
DoD documents about the dangers of DU seems to be about literal
quotes from the Materials Safety Data Sheet, which is public domain
and should be routinely present in any facility handling the stuff.
(I think that is even a legal requirement.) You can always get these
from http://www.msdssearch.com/ or http://hazard.com/msds/ .
The only reason journalists get so upset about this is that they are
completely ignorant, although this has been in the news on and off
for the last 10 years.
--
Emmanuel Gustin
emmanue...@skynet.be
Homepage: http://users.skynet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/
Fighter Guns Page: http://www.geocities.com/gustin_e/
Military Aircraft Database: http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/
globemaster
MM PGU-14B/B.
--
http://www.globemaster.de/
The US Military Aviation Database
John Hairell
<emmanue...@skynet.be> wrote:
[stuff snipped]
>
>The radiation from DU is alpha-emission: Heavy, slow particles
>that are easily stopped by even the most nominal shielding
>(paint, tin foil, paper) or by air. Therefore there is radiation risk
>only if DU particles enter your body, i.e. if you breathe air
>contaminated with DU dust, or eat the stuff --- which means
>that people should wear gloves when handling the bare metal
>or wash their hands afterwards. Its toxicity is the greater danger,
>the radiation risk probably exists (and there is no reason to stake
>stupid risks) but is undocumented and negligibly small compared
>to flying or taking a holiday in Switzerland.
A year or so ago I came across some DOD documents that deal with the
toxicity of DU. They make for some interesting reading - in short the
radiological issue is minimized but the toxicology aspects are
heightened. Much of the reports have to do with embedded fragments
of DU in shrapnel form.
"Toxicological Evaluation of Depleted Uranium in Rats: Six-Month
Evaluation Point", by Pelmar/Hogan/Benson/Landauer, Armed Forces
Radiobiology Research Institute Special Publication 98-1 Feb 1998.
Daxon EG "Protocol for Monitoring Gulf War Veterans With Embedded
Fragments of Depleted Uranium", AFRRI Technical Report 93-2
Daxon EG/Musk JH "Assesxment of the Risks from Embedded Fragments of
Depleted Uranium" AFRRI Technical Report 93-1.
From the first report above: "DU fragments present a radiologically
and toxicologically unique condition with unknown health risks." and:
"The data suggest the potential health hazards associated with
exposure to depleted uranium shrapnel. The data indicate that chronic
exposure to uranium may not be as toxic to the kidneys as had been
anticipated from acute exposure studies. In contrast, the
distribution of uranium to the brain and the observed
electrophysiological changes could in time result in alterations to
cognitive function."
John Hairell (guar...@erols.com)
Regnirps
think some of the heavy plates are in the wings. Anyway, great big heavy chunks
are found in repair and parts fascilities and there is no special warning. Note
that a 747 accident can spread hundreds (thousands?) of pounds about and there
are no special DU precautions for rescuers or investigators AFAIK.
Charlie Springer