why didn ' t the German Nazi start to mass produce their Me 262 jet fighters for combat missions ?
Komin
I saw many books on the German jet fighter Me 262 , and their jet
engine manufacturers BMW, MAYBACH, Junker , and Mettschersmidt in
1940-44.
But why didn' t they [ German ] start to mass manufacture jet fighters
for their Nazi air force ?
Instead they put their jet engines into their V -I missiles .
Grantland
vello
a) It was too late, when Me-262 was ready to production, Germany was
out of resources.
b) Hitler got stupid idea to use plane as fast bomber, not as fighter -
it blocks development for a long time.
c)V-1 uses pulsejet, simple engine often constructed by model plane
enthusiasts.
Cub Driver
>But why didn' t they [ German ] start to mass manufacture jet fighters
>for their Nazi air force ?
They certainly tried!
To be sure, there was an unnecessary delay in fielding the 262, as a
result of Hitler's insistence that it be developed as a bomber. But
they built as many as they could, as fast as they could.
Note that it wasn't the Nazi air force but the Germany Air Force, then
as now called the Luftwaffe.
>Instead they put their jet engines into their V -I missiles .
No, the V-1 had a different engine altogether, a pulse-jet quite
unsuited for manned aircraft operations.
-- all the best, Dan Ford
email war...@mailblocks.com (put Cubdriver in subject line)
Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com
Keith W
"Komin" <vea...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1123397795.2...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I visited the Hindenburg Museum in Friedrichhaven in the Bordersee.
>
> I saw many books on the German jet fighter Me 262 , and their jet
> engine manufacturers BMW, MAYBACH, Junker , and Mettschersmidt in
> 1940-44.
>
> But why didn' t they [ German ] start to mass manufacture jet fighters
> for their Nazi air force ?
They did
> Instead they put their jet engines into their V -I missiles .
>
No they didnt. The V-1 used the lower powered Argus pulse jet
Keith
Keith W
"Cub Driver" <war...@mailblocks.com> wrote in message
news:vvlbf19uqf3sa6hit...@4ax.com...
> On 6 Aug 2005 23:56:35 -0700, "Komin" <vea...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>But why didn' t they [ German ] start to mass manufacture jet fighters
>>for their Nazi air force ?
>
> They certainly tried!
>
> To be sure, there was an unnecessary delay in fielding the 262, as a
> result of Hitler's insistence that it be developed as a bomber. But
> they built as many as they could, as fast as they could.
>
> Note that it wasn't the Nazi air force but the Germany Air Force, then
> as now called the Luftwaffe.
>
The real delay was in engine development, fitting bomb shackles
was no real delay. The Junkers Jumo 004 didnt become available
in adequate numbers until late 1944
Keith
I_H8_Scientology
were destroyed on the ground. Also the Me 262 was very vulnerable
during the landing, the Allied fighters hit while the Me262 had to do a
very lengthy, slow airfield-approach manoeuvre; the Germans even had to
send up ordinary fighter planes to protect the landing Me 262.
BernardZ
Pete_N...@hotmail.com says...
The other problem was lack of fuel.
--
The person who is arguing that money is not important almost always is
the person who does not have it.
Observations of Bernard - No 82
Walt Morgan
thereabouts. That number seems to have come from a post war USSBS
report. I think that it has been determined that the actual number was
several hundred more.
Still not enough to turn the tide since only a fraction of the
production actually saw combat. Most were destroyed in the
transportation network or on factory airfields. Many were also
destroyed on operational airfields by bomber and straffing fighters.
Keith is right in saying that Hitler didn't delay the production. He
did , however, delay the effective use of the aircraft as a fighter.
And even without that delay it still wouldn't have mattered. They were
"to little to late".
Walt
On 7 Aug 2005 05:04:14 -0700, "I_H8_Scientology"
den...@aol.com
BernardZ wrote:
> In article <1123416254.6...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> Pete_N...@hotmail.com says...
> > The Germans built far more Me 262 than ever saw combat. Most Me 262
> > were destroyed on the ground. Also the Me 262 was very vulnerable
> > during the landing, the Allied fighters hit while the Me262 had to do a
> > very lengthy, slow airfield-approach manoeuvre; the Germans even had to
> > send up ordinary fighter planes to protect the landing Me 262.
> >
> > http://www.spaink.net/cos/warhero/
> > http://www.xenu.net
> >
> >
>
> The other problem was lack of fuel.
Ouite so,plus Me262 itself was far more dangerous for the inexprienced
Me262 pilots than enemy fighters.
Rob Arndt
Most knowledgable people will claim engine delays and problems with
service life related to lack of raw materials, but the real answer lies
with Hitler alone.
1) The first He-178 jet flew in Aug 1939 and neither the Luftwaffe nor
Hitler took much notice of it even though it flew faster than the Me Bf
109 and held much potential as a war weapon. Had full development
started in 1939 then the 262 might have made it into combat a full year
earlier, in 1943 instead of 1944.
2) As far as developing the jet was concerned, Hitler had put a delay
order on what he termed "long-term" projects that exceeded his
"short-war" goals. This included the jets and made sense at the time
because Germany was winning the war.
3) That order alone did not kill the jet because the engines under
development- axial flow types- were delayed themselves... however, when
the time came to employ them Hitler was on the defense yet ordered the
jet deployed as a strike bomber. However, this order was partly ignored
with fighter versions still being produced
4) By the time Hitler realized his mistake it was too late and all
manner of jet projects were robbing Germany of a single design that
could be massed produced. Instead there was continued production of the
Ar-234 and even a second fighter the He-162, not to mention the useless
Me-163 rocket interceptor and various jet prototypes (accounting for
785 completed a/c plus 1,000 under construction).
5) Hitler also kept the Fw-190 and Me-109 in full production which
eventually accounted for 55,000 aircraft, almost HALF of Germany's
total wartime production of all a/c.
6) By prioritizing the "V-Weapons" programs Hitler effectively
eliminated the jet threat. Imagine if all that money and materials went
into jets- they would have had thousands of jets deployed not to
mention underground bases invunerable to Allied attack.
At the end, JV-44 proved what the Me-262 could do and only THEN were
jets and underground facilities starting to take a priority. They were
to be part of the Kahla Complex which was not completed.
Of the 1,433 Me-262s manufactured, only roughly 300 saw combat- racking
up 785 kills. The 262 produced 27 aces and the top ace shot down 20
a/c. 100 Me-262 a/c were lost to accidents alone, leaving a few
precious kills for the Allies. The 262 was in no way a failure and
would have posed a significant threat to the Allies if produced in
enough numbers for full squadron usage. Instead, Hitler wasted valuable
development time hoping that the piston fighters would win the air war
for him. He gambled and lost since Germany had the advantage in jet
technology, but chose to throw it away.
Rob
Keith W
"Rob Arndt" <teut...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1123437010....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> This is an easy question to answer. Hitler.
>
> Most knowledgable people will claim engine delays and problems with
> service life related to lack of raw materials, but the real answer lies
> with Hitler alone.
>
> 1) The first He-178 jet flew in Aug 1939 and neither the Luftwaffe nor
> Hitler took much notice of it even though it flew faster than the Me Bf
> 109 and held much potential as a war weapon. Had full development
> started in 1939 then the 262 might have made it into combat a full year
> earlier, in 1943 instead of 1944.
Not having Hitler take notice was probably a good thing for
the development program. In the early stage of the war he tended
to cancel anything that would take more than a couple of years
to enter production.
> 2) As far as developing the jet was concerned, Hitler had put a delay
> order on what he termed "long-term" projects that exceeded his
> "short-war" goals. This included the jets and made sense at the time
> because Germany was winning the war.
You just said he didn't notice - which is it ?
> 3) That order alone did not kill the jet because the engines under
> development- axial flow types- were delayed themselves... however, when
> the time came to employ them Hitler was on the defense yet ordered the
> jet deployed as a strike bomber. However, this order was partly ignored
> with fighter versions still being produced
> 4) By the time Hitler realized his mistake it was too late and all
> manner of jet projects were robbing Germany of a single design that
> could be massed produced. Instead there was continued production of the
> Ar-234 and even a second fighter the He-162, not to mention the useless
> Me-163 rocket interceptor and various jet prototypes (accounting for
> 785 completed a/c plus 1,000 under construction).
> 5) Hitler also kept the Fw-190 and Me-109 in full production which
> eventually accounted for 55,000 aircraft, almost HALF of Germany's
> total wartime production of all a/c.
That was a perfectly sensible decision, you dont cancel
the production of weapons known to be effective until
their replacements are themselves proven in combat.
> 6) By prioritizing the "V-Weapons" programs Hitler effectively
> eliminated the jet threat. Imagine if all that money and materials went
> into jets- they would have had thousands of jets deployed
But not the pilots to fly them or fuel to get them in the air.
> not to
> mention underground bases invunerable to Allied attack.
>
Bases cut off from the outside world because their road and
rail links have been severed are of doubtful utility and the
runway has to be above ground.
Keith
Steve Hix
"Komin" <vea...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I visited the Hindenburg Museum in Friedrichhaven in the Bordersee.
>
> I saw many books on the German jet fighter Me 262 , and their jet
> engine manufacturers BMW, MAYBACH, Junker , and Mettschersmidt in
> 1940-44.
>
> But why didn' t they [ German ] start to mass manufacture jet fighters
> for their Nazi air force ?
They lacked the resources and industrial capability to mass produce them.
> Instead they put their jet engines into their V -I missiles .
The two aircraft didn't use the same engine; not even the same general
type of engine.
Cub Driver
<Pete_N...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>The Germans built far more Me 262 than ever saw combat. Most Me 262
>were destroyed on the ground.
A bunch of them were also brought back to the U.S. along with other
interesting aircraft such as the Arado Blitz bomber.
Cub Driver
wrote:
>They were
>"to little to late".
Though it wouldn't have excited air buffs sixty years down the road,
the same amount of money and materiel put into the FW-190 probably
would have paid better dividends. The same might be said of the V-1
and V-2. Germany diverted altogether too much resources into fantasy
projects.
jim.w...@segway.com
stopped the bomber offensive, but that would only have given the
Russians time to advance further westward. Nothing they could have done
mattered after August 6, anyway.
jw
Dermott
What happened on August 6th? (I assume you mean 1944?)
Regards,
Dermott
Keith W
> On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 09:53:37 -0600, Walt Morgan <ske...@tritel.net>
> wrote:
>
>>They were
>>"to little to late".
>
> Though it wouldn't have excited air buffs sixty years down the road,
> the same amount of money and materiel put into the FW-190 probably
> would have paid better dividends. The same might be said of the V-1
> and V-2. Germany diverted altogether too much resources into fantasy
> projects.
>
>
With regard to the V-1 I tend to agree. Relatively modest improvements
to the guidance system could have made the weapon much more
potent. It was cheap and easy to manufacture and tied down
considerable allied resources including much of the Allied AA
and many of the fastest fighters in service at the time.
The V-2 on the other hand was a strategic disaster for Germany.
It was extremely expensive to build , requiring considerable
amounts of strategic materials that were in short supply.
Keith
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Peter Skelton
eug...@dynagen.co.za
Keith W wrote:
> With regard to the V-1 I tend to agree. Relatively modest improvements
> to the guidance system could have made the weapon much more
> potent. It was cheap and easy to manufacture and tied down
> considerable allied resources including much of the Allied AA
> and many of the fastest fighters in service at the time.
Yep - for the cost of a Lancaster bomber Hitler was getting over 300
V1's. And if he had not buggered the program about in his inimitable
way those could conceivably have been ready 18 months earlier in
greater quantities and at a time when the radar guidance for the AA
guns and the proximity fuses for their shells would not have been
available -or available in the necessary quantities. With elementary,
as Keith has intimated, tweaking both range could have been increased
and guidance improved. The weapon made no demands on the aero engine
industry nor did it require aluminium or exotic fuels. Imagine a
sustained V1 attack starting beginning of 1943. It would have caused
the Allies a lot of headaches. It certainly would have postponed
Overlord considerably.
Thankfully the allies had a wonderful ally - Hitler himself. His
incompetence surely cost the Reich dearly!
Eugene.
den...@aol.com
He should have known better than anybody else,his sqn was Third
Reich's only sqn with Me262s AND seasoned jet jockeys,and allied
bombers simply avoided areas protected by his fighters.
But in 1945 it was impossible to find enough experienced fighter
pilots,much less experienced me262 pilots,to man all Luftwaffe Me262
sqns with seasoned guys.
If Germany only a couple of months extra time,Germany would become
worlds first and sole nuclear power and eveything would be totally
different.
Jeff Crowell
> If Germany only a couple of months extra time,Germany would become
> worlds first and sole nuclear power and eveything would be totally
> different.
Yeah, except for reality.
Jeff
Keith W
<den...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1123520084.6...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> jim.w...@segway.com wrote:
>> Galland has commented that the ME-262 if used properly could have
>> stopped the bomber offensive, but that would only have given the
>> Russians time to advance further westward. Nothing they could have done
>> mattered after August 6, anyway.
>>
>> jw
>
> He should have known better than anybody else,his sqn was Third
> Reich's only sqn with Me262s AND seasoned jet jockeys,and allied
> bombers simply avoided areas protected by his fighters.
Presumably he says that because during a B-26 raid in April 1945 he
was shot down by a P-47.
<Quote>
I was shot down by a Republic P-47D flown by a man named James Finnegan,
whom I met some years later and we became friends. We were intercepting
bombers near Neuberg. I was leading a flight and I attacked from astern. My
rockets did not fire but I poured 30 mm cannon shells into one bomber which
fell in flames and flew right through the formation, hitting another. I
could not tell if that bomber was finished off, so I banked around for
another run, all the while my jet was receiving hits from the bomber's
defensive fire. Suddenly my instrument panel disintegrated, my canopy was
shattered and my right knee was struck. I was losing power and was in great
pain.
</Quote>
It seems his version of reality differs from yours
Keith
Jukka O. Kauppinen
>>Galland has commented that the ME-262 if used properly could have
> He should have known better than anybody else,his sqn was Third
> Reich's only sqn with Me262s AND seasoned jet jockeys,and allied
> bombers simply avoided areas protected by his fighters.
Incorrect. The famous JV44 was only one group of operational Me 262s.
The largest user of the 262s was JG7, a full JG of jet fighters.
Compared to that JV44 was just one gruppe, though manned with famous
pilots. But JG7 was the first ever jet fighter squadron, who pioneered
the use of 262s in large scale and fought the hardest jet battles
against the Allied air forces. JV44 is a minor player compared to the
much longer operational career of JG7.
jok
Rob Arndt
And he's wrong, the panzers could have been ordered up to area and kept
the beachheads bottled up... at least delaying the war. Instead, they
were kept back in reserve and used too late.
Rob
jim.w...@segway.com
threaten Germany with it because of uncertainty about Heisenberg's
atomic program.
I'll check "The First and the Last" but I think the Galland quote was
somewhere else.
jw
Keith W
<jim.w...@segway.com> wrote in message
news:1123540706....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I meant the A-bomb, although I've read that we were very hesitant to
> threaten Germany with it because of uncertainty about Heisenberg's
> atomic program.
>
Then you read incorrectly
The simple fact is that the first bombs werent available until
several weeks after the German surrender.
Keith
James A. Doemer
We couldn't have possibly have threatened Germany with the Atomic Bomb. The
first Atomic Bombs were available for... what was it? Almost a month I
guess, after the German's surrendered.
Krztalizer
> Third Reich's only sqn with Me262s AND seasoned jet jockeys,
Den, you are wrong here. JG 7 was a fully operation
Fighter Wing with several squadrons, and 90% of the LW jet kills
went to that unit, not JV 44. Do you think Walter Schuck (207+++)
victories doesn't count as a proper jet pilot? How about Heinrich
Ehrler? The list goes on for half a page. JV 44
also had absolute Nachwuchs on its list, guys that had no vics at all,
either before or after arriving on its staff. Schallmoser, who
crashed into almost every Allied aircraft he tried to attack, qualifies
as
a "seasoned jet jockey", eh?
>and allied
bombers simply avoided areas protected by his fighters.
Plain and simply never happened. The appearance of jet units,
regardless
of where they were stationed as the LW moved them around with great
frequency, actually DREW Allied bombers, not chased them away! You
ARE aware that JV 44's operational base was comprehensively bombed,
right? The Reich was so small at that point that JV 44 was
intercepting
Yaks from one front and B-26s from the other on the same day!
> But in 1945 it was impossible to find enough experienced fighter
> pilots,much less experienced me262 pilots,to man all Luftwaffe
> Me262 sqns with seasoned guys.
There were plenty of pilots, plenty of SEASONED pilots, and a couple
thousand prop pilots had already gone through the conversion courses
to be assigned to whatever fighter units remained. The problem was
that the Reich was desintegrating, and centralized control was giving
stupid and contradictory orders. Several jet units, such as III /KG 51
and KG/J 54, were ordered to disband and give their machines over to
others, then abruptly ordered back into combat, with their Turbos
already
xferred to other airfields! Its impossible to be effective under such
conditions,
regardless of how seasoned the pilots may be.
>If Germany only a couple of months extra time,Germany would become
> worlds first and sole nuclear power and eveything would be totally
> different.
Oh, I thought you were posting a serious reply - I didn't realize you
were joking.
Gordon
Steve Hix
They were intended to be used against Germany. It wasn't expected to
collapse as soon as it did, when planning the bomb was done.
Kyle Boatright
"Keith W" <keith...@kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dd8on9$ptk$1$8302...@news.demon.co.uk...
Right. The Germans surrendered before August 6, 1945. However, I believe
Jim Wilkins' assertion was that no matter when the Germans introduced the
Me-262 and the Me-262's impact on the bomber offensive, the introduction of
the A-bomb by the US in late Summer, 1945 would have put the Germans out of
the war quickly.
The interesting question is whether 2 A-bombs would have been enough to
cause the Germans to capitulate. Given Hitler's manic nature, I do not
think he would have authorized a surrender regardless of the political or
battlefield situaion.
KB
Peter A. Stoll
news:samdnah7DtV...@comcast.com:
>
> The interesting question is whether 2 A-bombs would have been enough
> to cause the Germans to capitulate. Given Hitler's manic nature, I do
> not think he would have authorized a surrender regardless of the
> political or battlefield situaion.
>
> KB
>
>
>
Were two not enough, more would have come. Had the production complex
stayed screwed down tight for short-term production, fissionable material
for the next few bombs would have come far faster than it did in the event.
But Groves had pushed the system into some otherwise undesirable,
inefficient, and less safe operating practices to save fairly small amounts
of time to the first bombs, so once the war was won--production really
slowed down for a while as things got sorted out.
When I attended Philip Morrison's annual lecture about 1972, reminiscing on
his Manhattan Project experience, he mentioned that he had expected to
trade off with another project guy handling certain matters at the Tinian
end. They'd expected to trade that responsibility monthly to the end of
1945, and had not planned past that, if memory serves.
Peter A. Stoll
Peter A. Stoll
> Were two not enough, more would have come.
The following link discusses the likely continuing supply of weapons had
war continued past early August 1945. It appears credible to me. While it
has much technical detail, for this point the key sentence is:
"Production estimates given to Sec. Stimson in July 1945 projected a
second plutonium bomb would be ready by Aug. 24, that 3 bombs should be
available in September, and more each month - reaching 7 or more in
December"
Peter A. Stoll
http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/Sciences/Chemistry/NuclearChemistry/Nuc
learWeapons/FirstChainReaction/FirstNuclWeapons/AdditionalBombs.htm
James A. Doemer
"Steve Hix" <se...@NOSPAMspeakeasy.netINVALID> wrote in message
news:sehix-87CF45....@news.isp.giganews.com...
The bomb was intended, originally, to be a counter threat against Germany's
production of the bomb. The Germans were, after all, the first to split a
uranium atom and to start a nuclear bomb program. What the U.S. didn't
know was that the Germans had decided not to go ahead with the production of
their bomb because of budgetary considerations. It didn't appear that they
understood the full potention of the weapon. Either way, the bomb was never
used as a threat against Germany.
BernardZ
262 jet fighters for combat missions ?
In article <1123510669.4...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
eug...@dynagen.co.za says...
>
> Keith W wrote:
>
> > With regard to the V-1 I tend to agree. Relatively modest improvements
> > to the guidance system could have made the weapon much more
> > potent. It was cheap and easy to manufacture and tied down
> > considerable allied resources including much of the Allied AA
> > and many of the fastest fighters in service at the time.
>
> Yep - for the cost of a Lancaster bomber Hitler was getting over 300
> V1's. And if he had not buggered the program about in his inimitable
> way those could conceivably have been ready 18 months earlier in
> greater quantities and at a time when the radar guidance for the AA
> guns and the proximity fuses for their shells would not have been
> available -or available in the necessary quantities. With elementary,
> as Keith has intimated, tweaking both range could have been increased
> and guidance improved.
Probably does not need much changes. As it was, it could be quite good
if terror is your aim. But you do need a massive industrial effort to
produce the quantities require. Although such an effort would be within
the resources available to Hitler.
Since the Germans made 32000 V1 and they required about 500 man hours
each.
Say you wanted to produce about 10,000 a month or say 120,000 a year.
Its about 4 times actual German production surely at that sort of
production rate you could half the unit hours. You would need about
10,000 * 250 or approx 50,000 work force.
10,000 V1 falling on South England a month would be quite devastating.
> The weapon made no demands on the aero engine
> industry nor did it require aluminium or exotic fuels.
A V1 was built of plywood and sheet steel. Its pulse jet engine were
crude and simple engine with only one moving part. It burnt low
grade petrol. It only took 500 man-hours to manufacture excluding the
explosive and autopilot. With the exception of the guidance system it
did not need skilled labour. So there is no limit to production.
> Imagine a
> sustained V1 attack starting beginning of 1943.
Since the V1, was only developed in mid 1943 you would have to postulate
a POD starting much earlier then the OTL.
> It would have caused
> the Allies a lot of headaches.
A bit early then you postulate it might be devastating.
The cost to Britain of these V1s is about 180 million US Dollar. This
amount is based on lost production, losses of airplanes and crews, extra
anti-aircraft guns, clear away the rubble caused by the attacks and the
British attacks on the launching facilities. And on top they needed
another 95 million US Dollar because for repairs on houses destroyed by
the V1s.
So ball park. As total cost of the V1 project, was roughly about 40
million US Dollar.That includes building and firing of the V1 and to the
protection of the launching facilities.
On a cost benefit analysis = (180+95)/40 = 6.8
The Allies could afford this in 1944. I am not so sure much earlier say
1941 or 1940.
For sure.
> It certainly would have postponed
> Overlord considerably.
Or pushed it forward to 1943.
>
> Thankfully the allies had a wonderful ally - Hitler himself. His
> incompetence surely cost the Reich dearly!
>
> Eugene.
>
>
What evidence do you have that Hitler significantly delayed the V1
program? On 26th May 1943 the V1 and V2 were comparatively tested. The
V1 failed the test. Hitler decided on the V2. A few weeks later another
meeting was held 17th/18th June with Goering. A decision was made there
to proceed with the V1. So Hitler might have delayed it at the most for
21 days.
A few weeks later on the 28th June, Hitler can be seen as really pushing
the V1 forward by ordering 252 sites constructed for the V1s in France.
--
The person who is arguing that money is not important almost always is
the person who does not have it.
Observations of Bernard - No 82
Cub Driver
<keit...@kwillshaw.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>With regard to the V-1 I tend to agree
Actually, I was suggesting that those resources too might better have
gone into hordes of FW-190s. But your point is well taken.
And Germany of course was running out of pilots by 1945. Hordes of
FW-190s wouldn't have done much good with 100-hour students aboard.
Cub Driver
>Nothing they could have done
>mattered after August 6, anyway.
Yes, a point which is usually ignored in these alternate-war
scenarios.
Cub Driver
<kboat...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Given Hitler's manic nature, I do not
>think he would have authorized a surrender regardless of the political or
>battlefield situaion.
And if Berlin had been the target?
Germany wasn't like Japan, where we needed the emperor to surrender.
Killing Hitler was the fastest way to achieve surrender of the German
armed forces.
Plus obliterating Berlin would have annoyed the heck out of Stalin.
Cub Driver
<ckdbigto...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>We couldn't have possibly have threatened Germany with the Atomic Bomb.
We are postulating a war that continues because Germany makes better
use of its resources and is better able to hold off the barbarians at
the gates.
Keith W
"BernardZ" <bern...@Nospam.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d632e13ae5a2dc79896fa@news...
> Subject: Re: why didn ' t the German Nazi start to mass produce their Me
> 262 jet fighters for combat missions ?
> In article <1123510669.4...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> eug...@dynagen.co.za says...
>>
>
>
>> Imagine a
>> sustained V1 attack starting beginning of 1943.
>
>
> Since the V1, was only developed in mid 1943 you would have to postulate
> a POD starting much earlier then the OTL.
>
Sorry but that's incorrect. The first test flight happened in August 1942
and by summer 43 the design was essentially complete. The
massive raid on Peenemunde in late 1943 delayed the project
considerably
>
>> It would have caused
>> the Allies a lot of headaches.
>
> A bit early then you postulate it might be devastating.
>
> The cost to Britain of these V1s is about 180 million US Dollar. This
> amount is based on lost production, losses of airplanes and crews, extra
> anti-aircraft guns, clear away the rubble caused by the attacks and the
> British attacks on the launching facilities. And on top they needed
> another 95 million US Dollar because for repairs on houses destroyed by
> the V1s.
>
> So ball park. As total cost of the V1 project, was roughly about 40
> million US Dollar.That includes building and firing of the V1 and to the
> protection of the launching facilities.
>
> On a cost benefit analysis = (180+95)/40 = 6.8
>
> The Allies could afford this in 1944. I am not so sure much earlier say
> 1941 or 1940.
>
>
> For sure.
>
>> It certainly would have postponed
>> Overlord considerably.
>
> Or pushed it forward to 1943.
>
Not possible. The western allies needed a clear year to build up
the supplies and men in England for a successful invasion and
this couldnt begin to happen until the Battle of the Atlantic was
won. Additionally the required numbers of landing ships and
landing craft along with the Mulberry harbours and channel
pipeline couldnt have been available in 1943
James A. Doemer
> On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 23:56:47 GMT, "James A. Doemer"
> <ckdbigto...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>We couldn't have possibly have threatened Germany with the Atomic Bomb.
>
> We are postulating a war that continues because Germany makes better
> use of its resources and is better able to hold off the barbarians at
> the gates.
>
>
>
posulate a war in which Germany went ahead with the development of their
atomic bomb.
Greg Hennessy
wrote:
>On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 13:19:03 +0100, "Keith W"
><keit...@kwillshaw.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>With regard to the V-1 I tend to agree
>
>Actually, I was suggesting that those resources too might better have
>gone into hordes of FW-190s. But your point is well taken.
>
>And Germany of course was running out of pilots by 1945. Hordes of
>FW-190s wouldn't have done much good with 100-hour students aboard.
>
Taking experienced instructors from training schools and not rotating
combat veterans through them didnt help either.
greg
--
"Access to a waiting list is not access to health care"
jim.w...@segway.com
his way:
http://members.aol.com/geobat66/galland/caldwell.htm
jw
BernardZ
keit...@kwillshaw.nospam.demon.co.uk says...
>
> "BernardZ" <bern...@Nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1d632e13ae5a2dc79896fa@news...
> > Subject: Re: why didn ' t the German Nazi start to mass produce their Me
> > 262 jet fighters for combat missions ?
> > In article <1123510669.4...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> > eug...@dynagen.co.za says...
> >>
>
> >
> >
> >> Imagine a
> >> sustained V1 attack starting beginning of 1943.
> >
> >
> > Since the V1, was only developed in mid 1943 you would have to postulate
> > a POD starting much earlier then the OTL.
> >
>
> Sorry but that's incorrect. The first test flight happened in August 1942
> and by summer 43 the design was essentially complete. The
> massive raid on Peenemunde in late 1943 delayed the project
> considerably
True but if you want it in bulk in 1943 as eug...@dynagen.co.za proposes
then the weapon has to be designed and fully developed a couple of years
earlier.
Conversely the German defences are much weaker too. However you are
probably right.
Anyway in 1943 if 10,000 V-1 are falling on Southern England a month.
The British will to do something to try and stop them.
>
>
> Keith
>
>
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
>
--
BernardZ
war...@mailblocks.com says...
Actually considering how much allied resources were diverted to stop the
V-1, it seems in this Hitler spent his resources well.
Rob Arndt
or is:
... a senator
... a sheik tyrant
... a corporate CEO
... a professional athelete
... a rap singer
... a drug dealer
... a mobster
... a civilian contractor for the military
or:
... someone with a conscience/heart that doesn't place themselves above
other people and values human life more than money
Your observations, Bernard are full of shit. Please post more nonsense
to ridicule, especially observations 1-81.
What a shitty SIG.
Rob
Keith W
"James A. Doemer" <ckdbigto...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:D00Ke.2877$RZ2....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
They simply didnt have the spare industrial capacity to duplicate
the US effort in the time span available. Contrary to popular
belief the american weapons were not built by a handful
of scientists in New Mexico. The enrichment plant at Oak Ridge
was by far the largest factory in the world and used more
electrical power alone than Germany had available.
The reactors and reprocessing plants in Hanford represented
another huge investment in materials and manpower. By nature
of their location the US facilities didnt have to worry about air
attack but similar facilities in Germany would have been
bomb magnets of the first order and would be hard to hide
The Hanford works covered 380,000 acres (560 sq miles)
In 30 months 554 buildings were erected on site and the city
of Richland was built to house 17,500 people who would work there.
The reactors required large amounts of cooling water and so the
list of available locations was quite short and they'd be hard
to disguise.
Oak Ridge employed almost 80,000 people at its peak in 1945
and quicly become the 6th largest city in the state.
The gaseous diffusion enrichment plant used 5,174,000
individual barrier tubes having a total length of 6659 miles.
The tubes were placed within 3122 barrel shaped cylinders
called diffusers. The fact that both sites had ready access
to massive amounts of hydroelectric power was a major
factor in the success of the US programme.
If you recall that it took the Soviets who had access to
stolen American Nuclear secrets 3 years to build the
bomb after the war on a project with absolute priority
on industrial procurement you'll start to see the
problems involved.
The Germans would have to divert resources from
one or more key weapons programmes. certainly they
couldnt have pursued both the V-2 programme and
a nuclear weapons program and since they had made
some key technical errors its hard to see them succeeding
before 1950 and the Soviets/Western Allies werent going to wait for
that to happen
James A. Doemer
"Keith W" <keit...@kwillshaw.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1123604...@spool6-east.superfeed.net...
Yes, I know all of this. Thanks for the history. I was sort of looking for
a scenario where it was possible for Germany to have pursued the project.
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
have been able to do it. They would have had to keep their Jewish
scientists.
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Peter A. Stoll
>
<snip>
> I was sort of
> looking for a scenario where it was possible for Germany to have
> pursued the project.
>
>
First you have to posit that the Americans failed, or at least took far
longer. Both are quite possible--the spectacular resource consumption
alone might reasonably have called for a curtailment were doubts as to
success or utility reviewed at a high level at more than one stage.
Then, at least on the arguments above, you need to suppose a German
effort proceeding on a much lower industrial investment path than the
American one, with the war somehow lasting long enough for it to matter.
Why the "long enough" qualifier?
The existing examples of program conducted with far lower industrial
resource expenditure either never came close to producing a bomb at all
(Argentina, Brazil, ...) or took quite a while and produced very few at a
very slow rate (see South Africa).
A lower investment German program would have suffered the additional
disadvantage compared to these later programs of not being able to "go to
school" on the rather publicly documented portions of the American
effort.
To summarize, I think such an alternate history needs to provide a
scenario greatly prolonging the European war, somehow derailing the
American nuclear effort, but with the Germans successfully pursuing a
lower-investment path to conclusion. That's a hat trick--not likely at
all.
Peter A. Stoll
phil hunt
>
>Say you wanted to produce about 10,000 a month or say 120,000 a year.
>Its about 4 times actual German production surely at that sort of
>production rate you could half the unit hours. You would need about
>10,000 * 250 or approx 50,000 work force.
>
>10,000 V1 falling on South England a month would be quite devastating.
If each V-1 launched killed an average of one person (about what was
historically achieved), it would kill 10,000 a month, or 120,000 a
year.
About 15 million people lived in Southern England, so this would not
have been a particularly big deal.
--
Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk
Guy Alcala
Using the same logic, NYC has a population of 7 or 8 million, so the death
of 3,000 in a very localised area should have caused minimal disruption,
which, even making allowances for the fact that this was the first time it
happened (so the shock effect would be greater), doesn't seem a very
reasonable conclusion. Yes, England could survive the deaths of 10,000
people a month in the southeast (after all, Germany and Japan were
experiencing civilian casualties on that scale on a fairly regular basis in
1944 and 1945), but the disruption would have been enormous, just as it was
in the Axis countries. Of course, that assumes that the Germans (read
Hitler) had been willing to try and target the invasion assembly areas and
ports instead of London, so that the disruption would have had a greater
strategic effect.
Guy
bernardz
Rob Arndt wrote:
> The person who is arguing that money is not important almost always is
> the person who does not have it...
>
> or is:
>
> ... a senator
> ... a sheik tyrant
> ... a corporate CEO
> ... a professional athelete
> ... a rap singer
> ... a drug dealer
> ... a mobster
> ... a civilian contractor for the military
Or in my case, my wife!
>
> or:
>
> ... someone with a conscience/heart that doesn't place themselves above
> other people and values human life more than money
Don't see many of these people giving!
Generally the man arranging for the passing the hat, puts nothing into
it. Blasts us for not giving more. Then takes a cut for expenses. Then
tells how much good he has done for the community by collecting so much
money. He is called generous and the technical word for him is
philanthropist
>
> Your observations, Bernard are full of shit. Please post more nonsense
> to ridicule, especially observations 1-81.
>
> What a shitty SIG.
Most observations don't make sense many are shitty, its a fact of life
but at least mine are read by my fans, like you, who read them.
>
> Rob
den...@aol.com
Keith W wrote:
> <jim.w...@segway.com> wrote in message
> news:1123540706....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >I meant the A-bomb, although I've read that we were very hesitant to
> > threaten Germany with it because of uncertainty about Heisenberg's
> > atomic program.
> >
>
>
> The simple fact is that the first bombs werent available until
> several weeks after the German surrender.
>
> Keith
Exactly,Mr.Willshaw, the first bombs were "Assembled in USA from German
Components" .
In other words if Germany were not occupied in April history would be
much different or if I use Ike's words "The Mankind would face the
greatest tragedy of the history".
Eunometic
I Believe Anselm Franz (the Austrian Engineer placed in Charge of the
Junkers Jumo 004 development program) said that he was never starved of
resources.
Anselem moved to the USA under paperclip where he is best known for the
T-53 (Iroqoise) and T-55 (Chinook, Hercules), AGT-1500 (abrams tank)
engine programs. I'd take it with a grain of salt though. He happily
displayed a portrait sized photograph of himself shaking Hitlers hand
in his corridor: He was probably no detractor of Hitler.
He had an autobiography of himself out there "my carear from jet
engines to tanks"
The real problem seems to have been the the lack of refractory alloys
which forced a switch from refractory metals to austinitic steels and
forced time delays in re-engineering and secondly the difficulty in
debugging the manufacturing process. When build by skilled technicians
the engines were quite reliable.
The Jumo 004A nickel/chrome was actually more reliable than the jumo
004B made of steels.
More at fault was possibly the Luftwaffed heirarchy who could have
pushed harder. Though not starved of resources the program could have
been more accelerated earlier.
The superior BMW 003 program was delayed by the directive to switch to
using diesel oil from low grad aviation spirit to fuel oil like the
Jumo 004.
Eunometic
control for correction would have been possible using similar methods
as the US clone: the Ford "Loon" perhaps using the Kehl Strasbourg
system used on Fritz-X and HS-293.
There was also a disposable turbojet under development by Porche for
the V1 to extend its range to about 750km. There were several guidence
methods to improve the accuracy at these ranges.
Keith W
<den...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1123655920.5...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> Keith W wrote:
>> <jim.w...@segway.com> wrote in message
>> news:1123540706....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> >I meant the A-bomb, although I've read that we were very hesitant to
>> > threaten Germany with it because of uncertainty about Heisenberg's
>> > atomic program.
>> >
>>
>> Then you read incorrectly
>>
>> The simple fact is that the first bombs werent available until
>> several weeks after the German surrender.
>>
>> Keith
>
> Exactly,Mr.Willshaw, the first bombs were "Assembled in USA from German
> Components" .
This is your fantasy , be aware that it bears no resemblance to reality.
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
> Keith W wrote:
>
>><jim.w...@segway.com> wrote in message
>>news:1123540706....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>I meant the A-bomb, although I've read that we were very hesitant to
>>>threaten Germany with it because of uncertainty about Heisenberg's
>>>atomic program.
>>>
>>
>>Then you read incorrectly
>>
>>The simple fact is that the first bombs werent available until
>>several weeks after the German surrender.
>>
>>Keith
>
>
> Exactly,Mr.Willshaw, the first bombs were "Assembled in USA from German
> Components" .
You have yet to provide verifiable proof of that despite having been
asked many times. Oh, and it's time for your annual claim the Nazis
detonated two atomic bombs again without verifiable proof.
Cub Driver
>Exactly,Mr.Willshaw, the first bombs were "Assembled in USA from German
>Components" .
Erm. Where was the German Manhattan Project located?
>In other words if Germany were not occupied in April history would be
>much different or if I use Ike's words "The Mankind would face the
>greatest tragedy of the history".
Erm. Where did Eisenhower write such a sentence, and did he translate
it from the German?
Cub Driver
<ckdbigto...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>posulate a war in which Germany went ahead with the development of their
>atomic bomb.
We are trying to stay within the realm of the feasible. You'd have to
postulate a Germany that didn't threaten its greatest scientific minds
(and those of its neighbors) with humiliation, incarceration, and
death because they were Jews.
Eunometic
> In article <1123416254.6...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> Pete_N...@hotmail.com says...
> > The Germans built far more Me 262 than ever saw combat. Most Me 262
> > were destroyed on the ground. Also the Me 262 was very vulnerable
> > during the landing, the Allied fighters hit while the Me262 had to do a
> > very lengthy, slow airfield-approach manoeuvre; the Germans even had to
> > send up ordinary fighter planes to protect the landing Me 262.
> >
> > http://www.spaink.net/cos/warhero/
> > http://www.xenu.net
> >
> >
>
> The other problem was lack of fuel.
Perhaps, though the Junkers Jumo 004B engines provided the Me 262
probably the most flexible fuel possibilities of any weapon of the
second world war.
For reasons of safety and economy the Jumo 004 was designed to run of
diesel fuel. It could also run of low grade low octane gasoline,
perhaps with a little (5% oil added). In an emergeny it could run of
heavy grade fuel oil. "Bunker Oil"
Some Me 262 missions were flown with crude oil obtained from Germanys
small number of oil wells or distilled from coal tars.
The crude oil was simply warmed and refined by an impellor centrifuge.
This minimal infrastructure was not vulnerable to allied bombing. It
was then warmed again before being pumped onto the aircraft.
Towards the end of the war Germany built a number of mini
fischer-tropsch plants, about 46. Unlike the 7 major hydrogenation
plants and 6 fisher-tropsch plants these were never found by allied
airforces. Their outputs was minimal: as much as a large US 'gas
station'. Fisher-Tropch plants tend to be much smaller than
hydrogenation plants due to the lower pressure involved. They also are
more suited to linear chain hydrocarbon diesel like fuels which suit
jet engines rather than iso-octane production.
jim.w...@segway.com
an uncontrolled reactor that could be placed in a U-boot or large
airplane and sent to melt down under/over an enemy city. This is much
simpler to produce than a bomb since only a few percent enrichment is
required.
The Allies used old bombers packed with explosives the same way; Joe
Kennedy was killed when one went off when he armed it.
Keith W
<jim.w...@segway.com> wrote in message
news:1123675788.7...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I read somewhere that the German effort most likely would have produced
> an uncontrolled reactor that could be placed in a U-boot or large
> airplane and sent to melt down under/over an enemy city. This is much
> simpler to produce than a bomb since only a few percent enrichment is
> required.
>
This is incorrect but there is a kernel of truth there to which I will
return.
The problems are legion but not least is the fact that any reactor
built using fuel enriched to only a few percent will be far too
large and heavy to load on an aircraft or even a WW2 submarine.
Even second generation reactors using highly enriched fuel
were too heavy for all but the very largest aircraft. The US
flew one reactor and they used a B-36 for the purpose
Then there's the little matter of persuading a U-boat crew to commit suicide
in
a particularly nasty way and last but not least the minor hiccup
that the German never managed to build a functioning reactor.
Herein lies the kernel of truth. It was a good thing for the German
physicists and the people of Haigerloch that the reactor they
built in a school basement didnt work. They had neglected to provide
a few rather crucial details. Namely radiation shielding and
control rods. Had it gone critical the reactor probably would
have melted down with rather unfortunate results.
phil hunt
>>
> Actually, if they hadn't gone through rearmament and war they might
>have been able to do it. They would have had to keep their Jewish
>scientists.
Probably not, but it would have helped.
phil hunt
>phil hunt wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 9 Aug 2005 20:18:44 +1000, BernardZ <bern...@Nospam.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >Say you wanted to produce about 10,000 a month or say 120,000 a year.
>> >Its about 4 times actual German production surely at that sort of
>> >production rate you could half the unit hours. You would need about
>> >10,000 * 250 or approx 50,000 work force.
>> >
>> >10,000 V1 falling on South England a month would be quite devastating.
>>
>> If each V-1 launched killed an average of one person (about what was
>> historically achieved), it would kill 10,000 a month, or 120,000 a
>> year.
>>
>> About 15 million people lived in Southern England, so this would not
>> have been a particularly big deal.
>
>Using the same logic, NYC has a population of 7 or 8 million, so the death
>of 3,000 in a very localised area should have caused minimal disruption,
I think you'll find people were made of sterner stuff in 1944.
There was a war on. Deaths were regrettable, but life went on.
>which, even making allowances for the fact that this was the first time it
>happened (so the shock effect would be greater), doesn't seem a very
>reasonable conclusion. Yes, England could survive the deaths of 10,000
>people a month in the southeast (after all, Germany and Japan were
>experiencing civilian casualties on that scale on a fairly regular basis in
>1944 and 1945), but the disruption would have been enormous, just as it was
>in the Axis countries. Of course, that assumes that the Germans (read
>Hitler) had been willing to try and target the invasion assembly areas and
>ports instead of London, so that the disruption would have had a greater
>strategic effect.
No.
The V-1 was a very inaccurate waepon. If it had been targetted at
anywhere smaller than London, such as the Southampton/Portsmouth
area, most would have harmlessly hit fields.
den...@aol.com
> >
> > Exactly,Mr.Willshaw, the first bombs were "Assembled in USA from German
> > Components" .
>
> This is your fantasy , be aware that it bears no resemblance to reality.
>
> Keith
Its not my or somebody elses fantasy,its one of the best kept secrets
of the history,but even best kept secrets do not last more than a
century.
den...@aol.com
Krztalizer wrote:
> > He should have known better than anybody else,his sqn was
> > Third Reich's only sqn with Me262s AND seasoned jet jockeys,
>
> Den, you are wrong here. JG 7 was a fully operation
> Fighter Wing with several squadrons, and 90% of the LW jet kills
> went to that unit, not JV 44. Do you think Walter Schuck (207+++)
> victories doesn't count as a proper jet pilot? How about Heinrich
> Ehrler? The list goes on for half a page. JV 44
> also had absolute Nachwuchs on its list, guys that had no vics at all,
> either before or after arriving on its staff. Schallmoser, who
> crashed into almost every Allied aircraft he tried to attack, qualifies
> as
> a "seasoned jet jockey", eh?
JV 44 was created as the cream of the LW fighter force and reflects
Gallants thinking about an effective fighting unit,almost any regular
JV 44 pilot was an highly decorated veteran,its true that JV 44 has
much less kills on record than other LW fighter sqdns ,but this was a
direct result of JV 44s reputation,namely JV 44 was not operating in a
target-rich enviroment like other LW units,specially when it was
stationed in Munich.
>
> Plain and simply never happened. The appearance of jet units,
> regardless
> of where they were stationed as the LW moved them around with great
> frequency, actually DREW Allied bombers, not chased them away! You
> ARE aware that JV 44's operational base was comprehensively bombed,
> right? The Reich was so small at that point that JV 44 was
> intercepting
> Yaks from one front and B-26s from the other on the same day!
If you they stationed you somewhere near Berlin you could have
intercepted Yaks and western aircraft almost every day.Area around
Munich was pretty intact the end of WWII.LW rotations in 45 were mainly
dictated by the tactical situation on the ground,Germans were unable to
find the fuel to scramble fighters,much less for ferrying them around.
>
> > But in 1945 it was impossible to find enough experienced fighter
> > pilots,much less experienced me262 pilots,to man all Luftwaffe
> > Me262 sqns with seasoned guys.
>
> There were plenty of pilots, plenty of SEASONED pilots, and a couple
> thousand prop pilots had already gone through the conversion courses
> to be assigned to whatever fighter units remained. The problem was
> that the Reich was desintegrating, and centralized control was giving
> stupid and contradictory orders. Several jet units, such as III /KG 51
> and KG/J 54, were ordered to disband and give their machines over to
> others, then abruptly ordered back into combat, with their Turbos
> already
> xferred to other airfields! Its impossible to be effective under such
> conditions,
> regardless of how seasoned the pilots may be.
Some LW Me 262 units lost more aircraft in accidents than to enemy
action,which tells something about the level of the experience,some
Me262 jockeys transfered from propeller driven planes to the jets only
after one week haphazardly conducted training.
>
> >If Germany only a couple of months extra time,Germany would become
> > worlds first and sole nuclear power and eveything would be totally
> > different.
>
> Oh, I thought you were posting a serious reply - I didn't realize you
> were joking.
>
> Gordon
That was actually most serious part.
den...@aol.com
>
> Presumably he says that because during a B-26 raid in April 1945 he
> was shot down by a P-47.
>
So? ,as far as I know even the Red Baron was shot down.(not even by a
P-47 !)
Keith W
<den...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1123691027.8...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Trouble is you claimed the USAAF were avoiding the area.
Clearly they were not.
den...@aol.com
Keith W wrote:
> <den...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1123691027.8...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >>
> >> Presumably he says that because during a B-26 raid in April 1945 he
> >> was shot down by a P-47.
> >>
> >
> > So? ,as far as I know even the Red Baron was shot down.(not even by a
> > P-47 !)
> >
>
> Trouble is you claimed the USAAF were avoiding the area.
> Clearly they were not.
>
> Keith
Just one or a couple of raids do not change the observed trend, the
creation of JV 44 meant a relative freedom from air attacks around
Munich,allies were bombing other cities almost around the clocks,so
Gallants formula, mating top aircraft with top pilots worked pretty
well for Munich.
Keith W
<den...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1123693930.6...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
>>
>> Trouble is you claimed the USAAF were avoiding the area.
>> Clearly they were not.
>>
>> Keith
>
> Just one or a couple of raids do not change the observed trend, the
> creation of JV 44 meant a relative freedom from air attacks around
> Munich,allies were bombing other cities almost around the clocks,so
> Gallants formula, mating top aircraft with top pilots worked pretty
> well for Munich.
>
JV-44 was in operation for less than a month in April 1945, during
that period there were at least 3 major raids on the area. This is
not 'relative freedom from air attacks'
Keith
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Eric Joiner
> deployments or even mix between sexes. The US Army has PLENTY of capability in this area. Try not to be both ignorant AND stupid at
> the same time. it dilutes the value of your other propagandist posts.
Eric Joiner
TOTALL IGNORE THE POST ABOVE. INADVERTENTLY RESPONDED TO THE WRONG
POST. COMMENTS ABOVE WERE MEANT FOR (THE IDIOT) GRANTLAND.
bernardz
To some extent, bulk can make up for inaccuracy. The other issue is
that the V-1 could be improved in accuracy.
> most would have harmlessly hit fields.
Considering how cheap a V-1 was, if a farmer losses a cow or much of a
field the Germans are probably ahead.
Komin
this is similar to the bombs in the London Tube this month ,
London + USA alliance .
FatKat
den...@aol.com
Cub Driver wrote:
> On 9 Aug 2005 23:38:40 -0700, "den...@aol.com" <den...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >Exactly,Mr.Willshaw, the first bombs were "Assembled in USA from German
> >Components" .
>
> Erm. Where was the German Manhattan Project located?
Manhattan Project? That was the name of US nuclear effort employing
backward technology which required colossal plants like oak ridge and
required energy producers like TVA.
German GUZ technology made the technology used by Manhattan Project
and Manhattan Project itself obsolete even before plants of Manhattan
project were built.
>
> >In other words if Germany were not occupied in April history would be
> >much different or if I use Ike's words "The Mankind would face the
> >greatest tragedy of the history".
>
> Erm. Where did Eisenhower write such a sentence, and did he translate
> it from the German?
"Crusade in Europa"
den...@aol.com
den...@aol.com
den...@aol.com
Keith W wrote:
> <den...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1123693930.6...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> that period there were at least 3 major raids on the area. This is
> not 'relative freedom from air attacks'
>
> Keith
You should have to direct this question to the residents of other
German cities who got bombed almost on daily basis in the same time
period.
Keith W
<den...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1123775253.6...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Cub Driver wrote:
>> On 9 Aug 2005 23:38:40 -0700, "den...@aol.com" <den...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Exactly,Mr.Willshaw, the first bombs were "Assembled in USA from German
>> >Components" .
>>
>> Erm. Where was the German Manhattan Project located?
>
> Manhattan Project? That was the name of US nuclear effort employing
> backward technology which required colossal plants like oak ridge and
> required energy producers like TVA.
> German GUZ technology made the technology used by Manhattan Project
> and Manhattan Project itself obsolete even before plants of Manhattan
> project were built.
The Zippe type separators were developed post war in the USSR. They
utilsed the services of Dr Zippe who spent the war working on
high speed propellor research for the Luftwaffe.
try again.
Keith W
<den...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1123775769....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Most other German cities were occupied by the allies by this point.
FatKat
den...@aol.com wrote:
> Cub Driver wrote:
> > On 9 Aug 2005 23:38:40 -0700, "den...@aol.com" <den...@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Exactly,Mr.Willshaw, the first bombs were "Assembled in USA from German
> > >Components" .
> >
> > Erm. Where was the German Manhattan Project located?
Why obviously it was located in Stuttguart to throw off those snoopy
historicans. To this day, everybody is still fooled!
>
> Manhattan Project? That was the name of US nuclear effort employing
> backward technology which required colossal plants like oak ridge and
> required energy producers like TVA.
Obviouysly it worked - oh wait, I forgot, some art student in Berlin
actually designed a workable plant the size of a small office building,
requiring very little power generators. It would have worked too, if
the war hadn't ended before 1968.
> German GUZ technology made the technology used by Manhattan Project
> and Manhattan Project itself obsolete even before plants of Manhattan
> project were built.
missing only the slight detail of a workable device, let alone a
practical weapon.
Geoffrey Sinclair
>Just one or a couple of raids do not change the observed trend, the
>creation of JV 44 meant a relative freedom from air attacks around
>Munich,allies were bombing other cities almost around the clocks,so
>Gallants formula, mating top aircraft with top pilots worked pretty
>well for Munich.
What I like is the claim the day fighter unit is supposed to have an
effect on the night raids.
The 8th Air Force stopped dropping bombs on Germany on 25
April, Bomber Command main force also on 25 April. Munich
was captured on 30 April.
If you define skies around Munich to be say 100 miles then places
like Amberg, Straubing and Nurnberg are just within the radius,
Regensburg and Ingolstadt well within and so on. The idea JV44
prevented any raids is a joke.
By the way the USAAF did not bomb Munich in March 1945,
nor Regensburg. The trend in April 1945 was to bomb more
targets within Me262 range, mainly to go after the jets but also
because there was less and less of Germany in Nazi hands.
8th air force targets in April 1945, date in dd/mm/yy, criteria more than
50 tons of bombs dropped.
Location, date, target type, aiming method, bomb tonnage, short tons,
sorted by location,
Amberg 11/04/45 M/Y Vis 167.6
Bad Reichenhall 25/04/45 M/Y Vis 140.5
Bayreuth 5/04/45 M/Y H2X 60.8
Bayreuth 5/04/45 M/Y H2X 195.0
Bayreuth 8/04/45 Ord/D Vis 123.7
Brandenberg 10/04/45 A/F Vis 388.9
Brandenberg 20/04/45 M/Y Vis 189.2
Brandenburg 20/04/45 M/Y GH 146.0
Buchen 7/04/45 O/St Vis 108.0
Burg-bei-Magdeburg 10/04/45 A/F Vis 435.7
Dedelstorf 4/04/45 A/F Vis 81.0
Derben 8/04/45 O/St Vis 77.5
Donauworth 11/04/45 M/Y Vis 321.0
Dresden/Friedrichstrasse 17/04/45 M/Y H2X 329.8
Dresden/Friedrichstrasse 17/04/45 M/Y Vis 345.7
Dresden/Hauptbahnhof 17/04/45 RR/Junc Vis 577.0
Dresden/Neustadt 17/04/45 M/Y Vis 228.0
Dresden/S 17/04/45 M/Y H2X 210.4
Duneberg 7/04/45 Explosives Vis 453.7
Eiselben 6/04/45 I/A Vis 50.5
Elsterwerda 19/04/45 M/Y Vis 334.3
Falkenberg 19/04/45 M/Y Vis 390.5
Fassberg 4/04/45 A/F Vis 228.6
Freiham 11/04/45 O/St Vis 719.5
Freising 18/04/45 M/Y Vis 107.5
Furstenfeldbruck 9/04/45 A/F Vis 334.4
Furth 5/04/45 Ord/D Vis 193.8
Furth 8/04/45 A/Iasy Me 262 Vis 208.5
Gera 6/04/45 M/Y Vis 61.4
Gera 6/04/45 I/A H2X 250.3
Grafenwohr 5/04/45 Ord/D Vis 67.2
Grafenwohr 5/04/45 Ord/D H2X 191.6
Grafenwohr 8/04/45 Ord/D Vis 605.1
Gustrow 7/04/45 Ord/D Vis 307.7
Halberstadt 8/04/45 M/Y Vis 277.9
Halberstadt 8/04/45 M/Y H2X 280.8
Halle 6/04/45 M/Y H2X 438.9
Hamburg/Finkenwarde 4/04/45 UB/Yards H2X 99.0
Hitzacker 7/04/45 O/Dep Vis 283.8
Hof 8/04/45 M/Y Vis 284.3
Hoya 4/04/45 A/F Vis 105.0
Ingolstadt 5/04/45 Ord/D Vis 576.5
Ingolstadt 11/04/45 M/Y Vis 230.5
Ingolstadt 11/04/45 A/F Vis 360.3
Ingolstadt 21/04/45 M/Y H2X 520.9
Irrenlohe 20/04/45 RR/Junc Vis 125.5
Kalten Kirchen 7/04/45 A/F Vis 379.6
Kiel/Deutsche 3/04/45 UB/Yards Vis 53.5
Kiel/Deutsche 3/04/45 UB/Yards H2X 1,953.0
Kiel/Deutsche 4/04/45 UB/Yards H2X 1,498.0
Kiel/Howalds 3/04/45 UB/Yards Vis 72.0
Kohlenbissen 7/04/45 A/F Vis 261.4
Kraiburg 11/04/45 Explosives Vis 380.0
Krummel/Dynamit 7/04/45 Explosives Vis 344.5
Landsburg A. Lech 9/04/45 A/F Vis 147.0
Landsburg A. Lech/E 9/04/45 A/F Vis 73.1
Landshut 11/04/45 Ord/D Vis 84.7
Landshut 11/04/45 M/Y Vis 240.5
Landshut 16/04/45 M/Y Vis 647.7
Lechfeld 9/04/45 A/F Vis 243.7
Leipheim 9/04/45 A/Iasy Me 262 Vis 208.2
Leipzig/Main 6/04/45 RR/Sta H2X 949.7
Luneburg 7/04/45 M/Y H2X 266.8
Memmingen 9/04/45 A/F Vis 221.6
Muhldorf 20/04/45 RR/Junc Vis 115.9
Munich/Main 21/04/45 M/Y H2X 288.2
Munich/Riom 9/04/45 A/F Vis 566.2
Munich/Schleissheim 9/04/45 A/F Vis 359.0
Nauen 20/04/45 M/Y Vis 212.5
Neuberg 9/04/45 A/Iasy Me 262 Vis 182.9
Neuberg 9/04/45 O/St Vis 267.0
Neumarkt 11/04/45 M/Y Vis 175.6
Neumunster 7/04/45 M/Y Vis 176.0
Neumunster 13/04/45 M/Y Vis 575.2
Neuruppin 10/04/45 A/F Vis 392.5
Neuruppin 20/04/45 M/Y Vis 138.8
Nurnburg/South 5/04/45 M/Y H2X 109.5
Nurnburg/Station 5/04/45 M/Y H2X 801.5
Oberpfaffenhofen 9/04/45 A/Iasy Me 410 Vis 299.0
Oranienburg 10/04/45 Ord/D Vis 814.0
Oranienburg 20/04/45 M/Y Vis 202.5
Oranienburg/Annahof 10/04/45 A/Iasy He 177 Vis 416.2
Parchim 4/04/45 A/F Vis 68.5
Parchim 7/04/45 A/F Vis 337.8
Parchim 10/04/45 A/F Vis 74.0
Passau 18/04/45 RR/Br Vis 62.1
Passau 18/04/45 M/Y Vis 249.0
Perleberg 4/04/45 A/F Vis 64.2
Pirna 19/04/45 RR/Shops Vis 168.0
Pirna 19/04/45 RR/Br Vis 169.3
Plattling 16/04/45 M/Y Vis 264.0
Plauen 5/04/45 M/Y H2X 344.0
Plauen 8/04/45 I/A H2X 254.6
Rechlin 10/04/45 A/F Vis 372.5
Rechlin/Larz 10/04/45 A/F Vis 265.4
Regensburg 11/04/45 Ord/D Vis 85.3
Regensburg 16/04/45 M/Y Vis 418.4
Regensburg/East 16/04/45 RR/Br Vis 190.0
Regensburg/Ober-Traubling 11/04/45 A/F Vis 179.7
Regensburg/Rhenania 11/04/45 O/St Vis 187.3
Regensburg/West 16/04/45 RR/Br Vis 213.0
Rosenheim 18/04/45 RR/Transformer Vis 431.1
Roth 8/04/45 A/F Vis 218.6
Schafstadt 8/04/45 A/F Vis 174.8
Schwerin 7/04/45 M/Y Vis 128.1
Seddin 20/04/45 M/Y Vis 162.0
Stendal 8/04/45 RR/Shops H2X 178.5
Straubing 16/04/45 RR/Br Vis 241.7
Straubing 18/04/45 M/Y Vis 256.5
Straubing 18/04/45 M/Y H2X 257.8
Traunstein 18/04/45 M/Y Vis 179.5
Traunstein 25/04/45 RR/Transformer Vis 133.0
Treuchtlingen 11/04/45 M/Y Vis 208.2
Treuenbrietzen 20/04/45 RR/Junc Vis 201.8
Unterluss 4/04/45 Armaments Vis 327.6
Unterschlauersbach 5/04/45 A/F Vis 144.1
Unterschlauersbach 8/04/45 A/F Vis 125.2
Weiden 5/04/45 I/A H2X 94.2
Wezendorf 4/04/45 A/F Vis 219.2
Wezendorf 7/04/45 A/F Vis 239.4
Wolfratshausen 9/04/45 Explosives Vis 228.4
Wustermark 20/04/45 M/Y Vis 182.5
Zerbst 10/04/45 A/F Vis 222.0
Zwiesel 18/04/45 RR/Br Vis 126.0
Zwiesel 20/04/45 RR/Br Vis 104.0
Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
renab...@aol.com
denyav the dumbass aol.com wrote:
> Cub Driver wrote:
> > On 9 Aug 2005 23:38:40 -0700, "den...@aol.com" <den...@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Exactly,Mr.Willshaw, the first bombs were "Assembled in USA from German
> > >Components" .
> >
> > Erm. Where was the German Manhattan Project located?
>
> Manhattan Project? That was the name of US nuclear effort employing
> backward technology which
SNIP
Of course, it was technology that WORKED - at an industrial level of
production.
While German nuclear technology - a classic oxymoron when speaking of
the Nazi period - never produced U235 or Pu in anything except
labratory quantities
required colossal plants like oak ridge and
> required energy producers like TVA.
SNIP
And why do you think that Oak Ridge and Hanford were chosen as
locations? Hint: the TVA and Bonneville Power Authority were producing
so much juice via their hydro-electric plants that it could not be used
locally (long disance transmission was no where near as developed as it
is now). Essentially, the power plants were already there withexcess
capacity, all you had to do was string the cables
> German
SNIP
Too bad it wasn't German but Soviet
GUZ technology made the technology used by Manhattan Project
> and Manhattan Project itself obsolete even before plants of Manhattan
> project were built.
SNIP
Too bad that the technoilogy didn't exist until after 1945.Zippe and
his colloeagues were deported to the Ukraine after the War, had a gun
held to their collective heads and told to come up with something that
worked.
You are invited to provide citations to prove otherwise
Of course, since Denyav the Dumabass has had posted elsewehere that the
first centrifugal seperating plants weren't in operation in the USSR
until 1948, this should br REALLY interesting
> > >In other words if Germany were not occupied in April history would be
> > >much different or if I use Ike's words "The Mankind would face the
> > >greatest tragedy of the history"
SNIP
Provide a citation with proof that Ike was talking about the German
nuclear weapons program and not, say, the attempts by the Nazi Regime
to complete the implememntation of the Final Solution before the camps
were overrun by the allies
renab...@aol.com
> > On 9 Aug 2005 23:38:40 -0700, "den...@aol.com" <den...@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Exactly,Mr.Willshaw, the first bombs were "Assembled in USA from German
> > >Components" .
> >
> > Erm. Where was the German Manhattan Project located?
>
> Manhattan Project? That was the name of US nuclear effort employing
> backward technology which
SNIP
Of course, it was technology that WORKED - at an industrial level of
production.
While German nuclear technology - a classic oxymoron when speaking of
the Nazi period - never produced U235 or Pu in anything except
labratory quantities
required colossal plants like oak ridge and
> required energy producers like TVA.
SNIP
And why do you think that Oak Ridge and Hanford were chosen as
locations? Hint: the TVA and Bonneville Power Authority were producing
so much juice via their hydro-electric plants that it could not be used
locally (long disance transmission was no where near as developed as it
is now). Essentially, the power plants were already there withexcess
capacity, all you had to do was string the cables
> German
SNIP
Too bad it wasn't German but Soviet
GUZ technology made the technology used by Manhattan Project
> and Manhattan Project itself obsolete even before plants of Manhattan
> project were built.
SNIP
Too bad that the technoilogy didn't exist until after 1945.Zippe and
his colloeagues were deported to the Ukraine after the War, had a gun
held to their collective heads and told to come up with something that
worked.
You are invited to provide citations to prove otherwise
Of course, since Denyav the Dumabass has had posted elsewehere that the
first centrifugal seperating plants weren't in operation in the USSR
until 1948, this should br REALLY interesting
> > >In other words if Germany were not occupied in April history would be
> > >much different or if I use Ike's words "The Mankind would face the
> > >greatest tragedy of the history"
SNIP
den...@aol.com
renabor...@aol.com wrote:
> denyav the dumbass aol.com wrote:
> > Cub Driver wrote:
> > > On 9 Aug 2005 23:38:40 -0700, "den...@aol.com" <den...@aol.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >Exactly,Mr.Willshaw, the first bombs were "Assembled in USA from German
> > > >Components" .
> > >
> > > Erm. Where was the German Manhattan Project located?
> >
> > Manhattan Project? That was the name of US nuclear effort employing
> > backward technology which
>
> SNIP
>
> Of course, it was technology that WORKED - at an industrial level of
> production.
Worked? Yeah Right,In May 45 Manhattan Project hopelessly blundered
,They had a working Uran bomb design but not enough U235 for it,they
had enough Plutonium but not a working trigger for it,this hopeless
situation changed almost overnight with the occupation of Germany and
the arrival of U234
>
> While German nuclear technology - a classic oxymoron when speaking of
> the Nazi period - never produced U235 or Pu in anything except
> labratory quantities
Unlike US ,Germany produced fissile material enough to export some of
them to Japan,Germany was not only worlds #1 fissile material producer
in 1945 but also worlds first and sole fissile material exporter.
>
>
>
> required colossal plants like oak ridge and
> > required energy producers like TVA.
>
> SNIP
>
> And why do you think that Oak Ridge and Hanford were chosen as
> locations? Hint: the TVA and Bonneville Power Authority were producing
> so much juice via their hydro-electric plants that it could not be used
> locally (long disance transmission was no where near as developed as it
> is now). Essentially, the power plants were already there withexcess
> capacity, all you had to do was string the cab
Only if use a backward technology like ones used in Oak Ridge,you need
TVA,Germans were ,on other hand ,were using their superior, energy
efficent GUZ technology .Your own argument alone proves backward status
of Manhattan Project.
>
> SNIP
>
> Too bad it wasn't German but Soviet
It was a German invention Soviet GUZs were developed in SU by
expatriate German scientists and were modelled after German
"originals".
>
>
> GUZ technology made the technology used by Manhattan Project
> > and Manhattan Project itself obsolete even before plants of Manhattan
> > project were built.
>
> SNIP
>
> Too bad that the technoilogy didn't exist until after 1945.Zippe and
> his colloeagues were deported to the Ukraine after the War, had a gun
> held to their collective heads and told to come up with something that
>
>
> Of course, since Denyav the Dumabass has had posted elsewehere that the
> first centrifugal seperating plants weren't in operation in the USSR
> until 1948, this should br REALLY interesting
If SS not destroyed German GUZs,first Soviet GUZs would be in operation
as early as July 45,Soviets were very good at dismantling and
reerecting German equipment.
>
>
>
> > > >In other words if Germany were not occupied in April history would be
> > > >much different or if I use Ike's words "The Mankind would face the
> > > >greatest tragedy of the history"
>
> SNIP
>
> Provide a citation with proof that Ike was talking about the German
> nuclear weapons program and not, say, the attempts by the Nazi Regime
> to complete the implememntation of the Final Solution before the camps
> were overrun by the allies
Camps and Jews were not main or even secondary concerns of allies,but
the same cannot be said for yjr thermonuclear tipped America Rockets.
den...@aol.com
>
> They simply didnt have the spare industrial capacity to duplicate
> the US effort in the time span available. Contrary to popular
> belief the american weapons were not built by a handful
> of scientists in New Mexico. The enrichment plant at Oak Ridge
> was by far the largest factory in the world and used more
> electrical power alone than Germany had available.
Thak you for proving my point and accepting backwardness of US
technology.
Germany had not to duplicate backward US technology,as you probably
know pretty well,Germany is a little bit different than
Grenada,Panama,Iraq,Taliban etc,they usually do not duplicate but they
invent.
>
> The reactors and reprocessing plants in Hanford represented
> another huge investment in materials and manpower. By nature
> of their location the US facilities didnt have to worry about air
> attack but similar facilities in Germany would have been
> bomb magnets of the first order and would be hard to hide
Only if they are NOT sub terrain facilities,destroying Iranian or NK
underground facilities is even today a big problem,in 1944 and 45 it
was plain impossible.
>
> The Hanford works covered 380,000 acres (560 sq miles)
> In 30 months 554 buildings were erected on site and the city
> of Richland was built to house 17,500 people who would work there.
> The reactors required large amounts of cooling water and so the
> list of available locations was quite short and they'd be hard
> to disguise.
>
> Oak Ridge employed almost 80,000 people at its peak in 1945
> and quicly become the 6th largest city in the state.
> The gaseous diffusion enrichment plant used 5,174,000
> individual barrier tubes having a total length of 6659 miles.
> The tubes were placed within 3122 barrel shaped cylinders
> called diffusers. The fact that both sites had ready access
> to massive amounts of hydroelectric power was a major
> factor in the success of the US programme.
German nuclear effort employed only one fourth of Manhattan project
people and got results,thanks to world famous German "efficiency".
>
>>
> The Germans would have to divert resources from
> one or more key weapons programmes. certainly they
> couldnt have pursued both the V-2 programme and
> a nuclear weapons program and since they had made
> some key technical errors its hard to see them succeeding
> before 1950 and the Soviets/Western Allies werent going to wait for
> that to happen
>
You seem to forget again that the Critical mass for Uran bomb correctly
calculated by Diebner in 41 and calculations for Plutonium bomb
completed by Houtermanns even before that.
Plus ,German scientists did not make two crucial mistakes made by
Manhattan Project scientists that doomed Manhattan Project.namely:
1)They realized that the calculated "Critical Mass" was not enough for
a real Uran bomb.
2)Von Ardenne/Houtermanns group recognized the importance of trigger
mechanism for the success of plutonium bomb at the very stage and
developed and excellent trigger design.
den...@aol.com
> >
> Actually, if they hadn't gone through rearmament and war they might
> have been able to do it. They would have had to keep their Jewish
> scientists.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Nazi management considered science areas related with Theory of General
Relativity a jewish science and was reluctant to support German
scientists working in these fields.Thats a very well known fact,but
there is another but lesser known fact,namely the very same Nazi
management considered QM and its all colors a true "aryan" science and
supported scientists working in QM related fields with all possible
means and that was the reason why captured German technology 100 years
ahead of US technology in 1945.
den...@aol.com
Keith W wrote:
> <den...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1123775253.6...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
>
> utilsed the services of Dr Zippe who spent the war working on
> high speed propellor research for the Luftwaffe.
Yeah Right,somehow he was picked by expatriate German nuclear scientist
in SU while he was a prisonrt in a POW camp,is it not a little bit
strange that NKVD missed him but not German nuclear scientists?
BTW Mr.Willshaw,Luftwaffes own nuclear effort was closely associated
with SS nuclear effort.
Guy Alcala
> On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 00:11:13 GMT, Guy Alcala <g_al...@junkpostoffice.pacbell.net> wrote:
> >phil hunt wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 9 Aug 2005 20:18:44 +1000, BernardZ <bern...@Nospam.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >Say you wanted to produce about 10,000 a month or say 120,000 a year.
> >> >Its about 4 times actual German production surely at that sort of
> >> >production rate you could half the unit hours. You would need about
> >> >10,000 * 250 or approx 50,000 work force.
> >> >
> >> >10,000 V1 falling on South England a month would be quite devastating.
> >>
> >> If each V-1 launched killed an average of one person (about what was
> >> historically achieved), it would kill 10,000 a month, or 120,000 a
> >> year.
> >>
> >> About 15 million people lived in Southern England, so this would not
> >> have been a particularly big deal.
> >
> >Using the same logic, NYC has a population of 7 or 8 million, so the death
> >of 3,000 in a very localised area should have caused minimal disruption,
>
> I think you'll find people were made of sterner stuff in 1944.
They were used to somewhat less comfortable lives than is the case among western industrial
nations now, but I doubt that they were ultimately any more (or less) adaptable to being
under constant threat of attack (or actual attack) than we are now.
> There was a war on. Deaths were regrettable, but life went on.
And life would/has gone on nowadays as well, once such attacks or the threat of them became
'routine'. Yet they would still cause serious disruption, as has been the case for the US
post Sept. 11th.
> >which, even making allowances for the fact that this was the first time it
> >happened (so the shock effect would be greater), doesn't seem a very
> >reasonable conclusion. Yes, England could survive the deaths of 10,000
> >people a month in the southeast (after all, Germany and Japan were
> >experiencing civilian casualties on that scale on a fairly regular basis in
> >1944 and 1945), but the disruption would have been enormous, just as it was
> >in the Axis countries. Of course, that assumes that the Germans (read
> >Hitler) had been willing to try and target the invasion assembly areas and
> >ports instead of London, so that the disruption would have had a greater
> >strategic effect.
>
> No.
>
> The V-1 was a very inaccurate waepon. If it had been targetted at
> anywhere smaller than London, such as the Southampton/Portsmouth
> area, most would have harmlessly hit fields.
Most harmlessly hit fields in SE England as it was, owing to basic inaccuracy as well as
British countermeasures (having the captured german agents report back the wrong set of
impact points, to introduce a 'short' bias). But given the large numbers of troops and
supplies piled up in Southern England pre D-Day, and assuming an increase in the scale of the
attack (the 10,000/month postulated earlier in the thread) and an earlier start, it would
introduce considerable disruption into loading, assembling and launching the invasion, not to
mention even greater political (and ultimately strategic) effects than the much smaller scale
and later time frame of the actual V-1 attacks.
Guy