SR-71 blackbird cockpit so hot you can heat food on the canopy
LIBERATOR
ready preparations a pilot has to go through for dressing up for the
SR-71, and it said the cockpit and aircraft as a whole gets so hot
that if the pilot didn't have a cooling suit he'd pass out and
possibly die.
The pilot mentioned he would heat up food by touching it to the
canopy.
Are all supersonic aircraft still like this or has this heat problem
been remedied. It also mentioned they paint it black to aid in keeping
it cool.
deem...@aol.com
Wait for a hot(95F+), sunny day. Break an egg on some handy asphalt.
Dan
On a hot summer's day slide out a C-130 fuel quantity indicator and
see how long you can hold it in your bare hand.
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Jim Yanik
> deem...@aol.com wrote:
>> On Dec 26, 5:39 am, LIBERATOR <nogeek...@linuxmail.org> wrote:
>>> I read a story in an aircraft magazine that explained the extensive
>>> ready preparations a pilot has to go through for dressing up for the
>>> SR-71, and it said the cockpit and aircraft as a whole gets so hot
>>> that if the pilot didn't have a cooling suit he'd pass out and
>>> possibly die.
>>>
>>> The pilot mentioned he would heat up food by touching it to the
>>> canopy.
>>>
>>> Are all supersonic aircraft still like this or has this heat problem
>>> been remedied. It also mentioned they paint it black to aid in keeping
>>> it cool.
black radiates heat better.
>>
>> Wait for a hot(95F+), sunny day. Break an egg on some handy asphalt.
>
>
> On a hot summer's day slide out a C-130 fuel quantity indicator and
> see how long you can hold it in your bare hand.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
the Blackbird gets hot enough that they could not use aluminum in it's
skin/structure,it would lose it's strength.
That's more than hot enough to burn your hand.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
Ken S. Tucker
...
> the Blackbird gets hot enough that they could not use aluminum in it's
> skin/structure,it would lose it's strength.
> That's more than hot enough to burn your hand.
I read the X-15 used quartz for it's windows, I suppose Blackie did
too. I used torch heated quartz tubing to fuse fiber optics, the idea
was to test if we could tap into a fiber optic.
The tube was about 1/4" dia, and we'd insert the glass fibers into
it, then torch the tube and slowly join a 3rd fiber to the primary,
it worked, but it creates a reflection, so the tap is detectable.
A slight amount of the light pulse returns to the source which
also was tapped to detect the tap, so the tap technology is
important anyway.
Of course we all know about quartz crystal lights, they get
furiously hot and maintain strength.
Ken
deem...@aol.com
> Dan <B24...@aol.com> wrote innews:ULpZm.12784$ft1....@newsfe10.iad:
>
> > deemsb...@aol.com wrote:
> >> On Dec 26, 5:39 am, LIBERATOR <nogeek...@linuxmail.org> wrote:
> >>> I read a story in an aircraft magazine that explained the extensive
> >>> ready preparations a pilot has to go through for dressing up for the
> >>> SR-71, and it said the cockpit and aircraft as a whole gets so hot
> >>> that if the pilot didn't have a cooling suit he'd pass out and
> >>> possibly die.
>
> >>> The pilot mentioned he would heat up food by touching it to the
> >>> canopy.
>
> >>> Are all supersonic aircraft still like this or has this heat problem
> >>> been remedied. It also mentioned they paint it black to aid in keeping
> >>> it cool.
>
> black radiates heat better.
After first soaking it in. I'm assuming a bit of solar heat was
the least they were worried about......
Eunometic
I remember seeing newsreels of Afrikakorps frying eggs on their tanks.
How they fought in these vehicles is beyond me. Early tiger tanks did
have airconditioning.
David E. Powell
Throw in the thinner air at altitude and the sun strength....
LIBERATOR
> Dan <B24...@aol.com> wrote innews:ULpZm.12784$ft1....@newsfe10.iad:
>
> >> On Dec 26, 5:39 am, LIBERATOR <nogeek...@linuxmail.org> wrote:
> >>> I read a story in an aircraft magazine that explained the extensive
> >>> ready preparations a pilot has to go through for dressing up for the
> >>> SR-71, and it said the cockpit and aircraft as a whole gets so hot
> >>> that if the pilot didn't have a cooling suit he'd pass out and
> >>> possibly die.
>
> >>> The pilot mentioned he would heat up food by touching it to the
> >>> canopy.
>
> >>> Are all supersonic aircraft still like this or has this heat problem
> >>> been remedied. It also mentioned they paint it black to aid in keeping
> >>> it cool.
>
> black radiates heat better.
I thought that too until I read this. It actually said both, first it
said it cools better, but then said it radiates it (transfer) better
than any other color. So I don't know what the game was with that
contradiction. Obviously they made the plane black and then had a
problem with heat, possibly some retards working for skunk works?
> >> Wait for a hot(95F+), sunny day. Break an egg on some handy asphalt.
>
> > On a hot summer's day slide out a C-130 fuel quantity indicator and
> > see how long you can hold it in your bare hand.
>
> > Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
> the Blackbird gets hot enough that they could not use aluminum in it's
> skin/structure,it would lose it's strength.
> That's more than hot enough to burn your hand.
If black radiates heat better shouldn't they have painted it white? Or
is something purposeful dysinformation regarding the craft?
LIBERATOR
Thanks for that Ken...
LIBERATOR
Nice...
frank
Paint was irrelevant. Recall you're at 85kft and M3.2. External temps
were something like 900 deg F. Depending on what you're looking at on
the airframe.
Skin was titanium to deal with heat issues.
cooling was recirculating fuel through the aircraft to cool it, once
fuel got too hot was dumped into engines.
Suits had air conditioning. One crewmember told me his RSO kept his at
32 going into the suit. You could regulate temp to whatever was
comfortable.
One of the last squadron commanders wrote one of the better books on
flying SR-71 missions. Forgot the title. Had some interesting comments
on its retirement. Well worth buying for the library.
LIBERATOR
32 is freezing correct?
Thanks for the info.
Ken S. Tucker
For more fun, check out sumfink that's sometimes called
"transparent aluminum",
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_oxynitride
Has >2000F melting temp.
Ken
Eunometic
>
> - Show quoted text -
A hypersonic vehicle will get very hot. You try and keep the crew
and electronic cool with insulation.
If the heating is prolonged you need water cooling to preven the heat
soaking in, or advanced refrigeration and airc conditioning systems
able to dump heat into high temperature environments. dynasoar had a
refrigeration system to cool even the nose.
In the SR-71 the high fuel flow provides a place to dump heat.
Professor Sangers Silbervogel used a stainless stee like material and
an insulated crew compartments.
Dean
>
> Has >2000F melting temp.
> Ken
You are getting this mixed up with a Star Trek movie. AlON is not
called transparent aluminum. However, in Star Trek IV, Engineer Scott
did pass along the secret to making transparent aluminum.
Dean
Dean
Professor Sanger's Silbervogel was "projected" to use a stainless
steel. Obviously, since it was never close to building, it didn't.
Even if it did, it would have melted or failed catastrophically since
those alloys at the time did not have sufficient heat resistance.
Dean
Ken S. Tucker
Dean, did you see who I was replying to?
Our local King of Sci-Fi, "liberator", so I went a bit sexy ;-).
(Some pop-sci articles do call it transparent aluminum).
It would be quite possible to build a jet engine and a complete
a/c using AION, it looks better than Titanium (Ti), where weight,
strength and heat resistance is concerned.
Maintenance would be facilitated using a transparent a/c, one
could look inside it without taking any panels off.
Scaled up fabrication costs look to be able to compete with Ti,
perhaps having superior quality.
Imagine watching a transparent jet engine in operation,
the technology exist to do so, that could improve on what we
currently use....are you guys turned on yet?
Ken
Dean
I was sort of guessing that was who you were replying to, yes. I
don't know if he is a Star Trek fan.....
I doubt of AlON is practical for making a completely transparent
engine. Too many other issues like coefficients of expansion,
practicality of fabrication, joinging, etc.
Ken S. Tucker
Basically AlON is a ceramic, well check out ceramic turbochargers
such as,
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-43485855.html
it's been done yesterday. The technology is in infantcy, like plastics
was, or silicon diodes, (that's a thingy in your computer).
I think the newest specs are secret.
Ken
David E. Powell
Makes me wonder what kind of secret stuff we have now, if SR-71 and
the "Valkyrie bomber reconnaissance plane" are retired.
Ken S. Tucker
wrote:...
Can't say, but ceramics offer the highest temperature super
conductors.
If I understand physics correctly (50/50) I think a super conductor
would
absorb EMR, but "Euno" would know.
Ken
Eunometic
Not true.
Silbervogel, did not re-enter at the same speed as the space shuttle
(17500mph) but at 2/3rds of orbital speed hence the total kinetic
energy was about half as was therefore also the aerothermal load.
Silbervogel was a 'skip' bomber that repeatedly reentered the
atmoshere and then used its wings to fly back into space where during
a ballistic phase it cooled of by re-radiating heat build up before
beging the next cycle. This is a very efficient way of flying since
there is no parasitic drag during the ballistic phases of the flight.
The alloys the Germans were using in their jet engines tinidur and
cromadur opperated in the far more stressed environment of tubojet
turbine and nozzle some 800C without cooling though cooling was later
used to reduce creep and extend engine life.
In additon if anyone knew anything about aerothermal effects outside
of theory at the time it was the Germans. Apart from Sangers
theoretical and experimental investigations they not only had several
supersonic wind tunnels they had the only of several hypersonic wind
tunnel of considerable cross section. Furthermore they had
encountered aerothermal issue on the A4/V2 and solved them with heat
shielding: graphite on the nose and glass fiber around the
propellants. They were also encountering aerothermal effects on the
winged A4b. These missiles had radio-telemetry and reported their
condition to the engineers and scientists on the ground.
Post war analysis showed that Silbervogel needed thrickened heat
shielding to correct for a computational error, something which would
have reduced its payload. However the process of building the
Silbervogel no doubt would have encouraged further advances in heat
shielding materials that would have exceded the capabilities of
refractory alloys. For instance there was work on foamed metals
(avialable to today) that would have provided excellent insulation and
prevented heat soak and of course the use of graphite, ceramics and
insulators at critical points such as the nose and leading edge is
also a possibillity. There was an extensive program of ceramics
research to produce ceramic turbine and stator blades nearing some
success. (The MAN laboratory was bombed just before they could be
tested)
Typically the Germans would build full scale subsonic towed glider
models for low speed characteristic investigation and they would
probably have built a subscale unmaned models for high speed
investigation prior to incremental testing of a full scale
silbervogel. These models no doubt would have highlighted areas of
thermal stress that requried attention.
LIBERATOR
>
> Has >2000F melting temp.
> Ken-
That is freaking awesome. I bet its used on flying saucers we're not
supposed to know exist.
LIBERATOR
What type of insulation is used to stop heat?
LIBERATOR
wrote:
Planes that goto other planets and back with no problem.
LIBERATOR
Extensive education on the matter just like Robbie.
Do you think the Nazi Germans were the best in devising methodologies
to progress and discover such things as you've mentioned? It was
teamwork - a group effort truly sentimental about the projects that I
believe was the magical element that made all that they did happen.
mkf
>
> - Show quoted text -
I'd heard that the paint kept the fuselage 60 degrees cooler. A drop
in the bucket, but I guess every bit helps. Black is also harder to
spot visually at night then white, and U-2s were also black, which was
obviously not for cooling purposes.
bubba
>
> - Show quoted text -
you have seriously lost it now
frank
Some U-2s were silver, some were grey to keep the Brits happy that
they weren't used to sinister purposes like spying for a while. NASA
had some white ones.
Not sure why they used black paint, besides its easier to make. Stuff
on fuselage was a sort of chalk though. Paint would sort of melt and
be hard to scrub off. So when it went back to the states, painting 'we
were here' messages on the fuselage was done to torque the receiving
ground crews at Beale.
I think the F-117 paint was specifically black due to some of the
nickle alloys used to make it stealthy. I do know there was almost a
riot when Have Blue had the floral paint job. Better camo though.
Noting like pastels denoting hot shit fighter pilot. Or the leather
jacket but that's another argument for happy hour tomorrow night after
this one dies down.
Interestingly, they DID paint a flag on the bottom of one though at
the time everybody including God swore that DID NOT HAPPEN. So don't
tell the press it did happen.
Anybody got a 'non bono aviatris' patch? I think I spelled the last
word right. Had a dollar sign on it with wings. Was unofficial and
popular for a time. Either AF blue or black on white, forgot which
exactly.
Eunometic
Germans in general had many romantic ideas and tend to be romatic
dreamers, they are and were dreamers before and after the Nazis.
Combine this with good sccentic, engineering and trades skills and an
entrpreneurail spirit and one tends to get a few things like the
Sanger 'Silbervogel' popping up.
I do not think then Nazis added to this.
The Nazis however did add a sense of 'can do', urgency, 'willpower' to
Germany and had a love of munumental art and triumphal architecture
and engineering and this certainly led them to sponsor the V2
missile. I believe another year of work would have made the V2 an
cost effective and accurate weapon.
It is difficult to asses Nazi planning though there is much criticism
of it. The great immeditate needs of the war led them to eliminate
many important long term projects in order to focus on short term
results and this in the long run left them with deficits in
technology.
In general the allies could afford to dupicate efforts to ensure
technical failures were not to bad.
The USN for instance failed to produce a decent follow on dive bomber
but this was nowhere as disasterous as the long delays suffered by the
Me 210/410.
It was
> teamwork - a group effort truly sentimental about the projects that I
> believe was the magical element that made all that they did happen.- Hide quoted text -
>
I worked in Germany in the 1990s with a collegue who wqs allowed to
put his children into the local preschool/kindergarden. We noticed
the German kindergarden school teachers put great emphasis on the
children co-operatively building a sand castle. This at the time
seemed unique to us.
In an american school I guess they'd spending their time looking for
hidden shanks.
Richard
>
> - Show quoted text -
Here in the southern US we're partial towards R-36 fiberglas batts in
the attic.
But there are, evidently, enough bats up there already... <g>
Timur
Eunometic
The most obvious one is a double wall air gap insulation, perhap with
foils to stop infrared transmission, something like Dyna Soar used.
Walter Dornberger, Werner von Brauns 'partner' in the A4/V2 program
was a consultant on Dyna Soar and is often attributed credit for the
heat shielding. The crew and avionics would have to be in their own
insulated cabin, possibly with water or some form of cryogenic cooling
that simply dumps steam overboard.
LIBERATOR
:)
LIBERATOR
Nice... thanks for the overview..
LIBERATOR
MOre the better!
:)
LIBERATOR
So a variety of methods were used.
No one single miracle material or super metal eh...
LIBERATOR
> On Dec 27, 2:11 am, LIBERATOR <nogeek...@linuxmail.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 26, 11:50 am, Jim Yanik <jya...@abuse.gov> wrote:
>
> > > Dan <B24...@aol.com> wrote innews:ULpZm.12784$ft1....@newsfe10.iad:
>
> > > > deemsb...@aol.com wrote:
> > > >>> I read a story in an aircraft magazine that explained the extensive
> > > >>> ready preparations a pilot has to go through for dressing up for the
> > > >>> SR-71, and it said the cockpit and aircraft as a whole gets so hot
> > > >>> that if the pilot didn't have a cooling suit he'd pass out and
> > > >>> possibly die.
>
> > > >>> The pilot mentioned he would heat up food by touching it to the
> > > >>> canopy.
>
> > > >>> Are all supersonic aircraft still like this or has this heat problem
> > > >>> been remedied. It also mentioned they paint it black to aid in keeping
> > > >>> it cool.
>
Thanks for the educational effort for me.
Eunometic
Actually I don't know and I wish I did, the Krupp super-alloy steals:
cromidur, tinidur and vanidur were available and would probably have
been the first choice. All could handle well over 800C with a degree
of strength. Past that temperature you would have to use non ferrous
alloys such as RENE 41, Nimonic, Hasteloy etc. These can probably go
to 1000. Perhaps pure molybdenum. Sangers report is probably still
around.
In addition the Germans didn't sit still on alloy research and from
what I can see they came up with alloys for gas turbines to greatly
increase opperating life, supposedly boosting the Jumo 004 to 500hours
in the lab and 150 on the aircraft, however in general they were
looking at ceramics (for the stator blades) and water cooling (for the
turbine blades) due to metals shortages.
Tinidure is still used today for turbine blade disks and disk bolts
though not turbines. I belive it is often called A-286.
bubba
>
> - Show quoted text -