Do US pilots carry guns?
Mikko Pietil{
Do USAF pilots carry a personal weapon when flying missions?
I have heard and read about them often having their privately owned
handguns with them, and also heard of those being a risk during
ejections. Now I was told in a discussion in a Finnish local newsgroup,
that USAF pilots are issued an assault rifle as a part of their flight
equipment and found it hard to believe.
There probably are people, who can tell me if the story about the rifles
is true. I am also interested in hearing, how the gun would be made to
stay with the pilot during an ejection from the aircraft.
MPi
--
Mikko Pietil{ Mikko....@hut.fi
Ko N http://www.hut.fi/~mpietil1/
tel.+358 - 0 - 468 3104
"Die Natur der Zeit ist Sorge"
Stephen M. Ryan
USAF pilots and aircrew are issued a Beretta 9mm for combat sorties as
part of their survival gear (at least in ejection seat aircraft).
It is not unheard of to carry a personal weapon in place of the issue
weapon, but because this is not authorized by regulations, the pilot
should try to find out if the squadron commander will permit it or
officially ignore it. It implicates the law of war because of the danger
of the personal weapon being loaded with non-issued ammo, such as
dum-dums, that are outlawed by the Geneva Convention.
Several B-52 aircrew (myself included) carried our own handguns in place
of the S&W .38 we were issued during Desert Storm, because the .38s were
in such bad shape (old and not well-maintained). The supply system had
not yet gotten any Berettas to our unit before deployment, and we went
with 30+ year-old S&Ws with the sights falling off. The commander OK'd
the practice as long as we stored them in the armory and had them issued
to us before flight.
The survival vest has a holster sewn into the back to store the issued
weapon, and it will usually stay with you during ejection because it has a
flap to secure the gun in the holster.
The assault weapon idea is someone's fantasy. I don't know where you
would store it in the cockpit, much less take it with you during ejection.
Most of us felt the gun was there to make you feel better, but not of much
practical use. If you were going to be captured, it was more likely than
not you would be confronted with several heavily armed troops who would
laugh at your little popgun. Still, nobody wanted to take the chance that
it might come in handy, so everyone wanted to have the best weapon they
could carry.
Steve Ryan
Mikko Pietil{ (mpie...@lk-hp-15.hut.fi) wrote:
: Do USAF pilots carry a personal weapon when flying missions?
J.D. Baldwin
In article <519lm6$h...@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu>, Stephen
M. Ryan <smr...@umich.edu> wrote:
>Most of us felt the gun was there to make you feel better, but not of
>much practical use. If you were going to be captured, it was more
>likely than not you would be confronted with several heavily armed
>troops who would laugh at your little popgun. Still, nobody wanted to
>take the chance that it might come in handy, so everyone wanted to
>have the best weapon they could carry.
The relevant principle here is, "It's better to have a gun and not
need it, than to need a gun and not have one."
--
From the catapult of J.D. Baldwin |+| "If anyone disagrees with anything I
_,_ Finger bal...@netcom.com |+| say, I am quite prepared not only to
_|70|___:::)=}- for PGP public |+| retract it, but also to deny under
\ / key information. |+| oath that I ever said it." --T. Lehrer
***~~~~-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Lee Griffin
smr...@umich.edu (Stephen M. Ryan) wrote:
>USAF pilots and aircrew are issued a Beretta 9mm for combat sorties as
>part of their survival gear (at least in ejection seat aircraft).
snip
>
>The assault weapon idea is someone's fantasy. I don't know where you
>would store it in the cockpit, much less take it with you during ejection.
>
more snip
In Sarah Brady's fantasy world (and that of many gun-control advocates),
a Baretta 9mm IS an "assault weapon." (I know that's not what the poster
meant, but there is a vast ocean of ignorance regarding firearms on
display from some quarters. The anti-gun crowd made up the term
"assault weapon" to describe any firearm that fires in semi-auto mode
and is sufficiently menacing in appearance to frighten them. The proper
term is "assault rifle.")
Cheers,
Lee
Ed Rasimus
mpie...@lk-hp-15.hut.fi (Mikko Pietil{) wrote:
>
>Do USAF pilots carry a personal weapon when flying missions?
>
>I have heard and read about them often having their privately owned
>handguns with them, and also heard of those being a risk during
>ejections. Now I was told in a discussion in a Finnish local newsgroup,
>that USAF pilots are issued an assault rifle as a part of their flight
>equipment and found it hard to believe.
War is about killing people and hopefully about avoiding being killed.
Yes, USAF pilots carry weapons on combat missions. During my combat
tours I carried the issued S&W 38 spcl Combat Masterpiece. I also
carried my own personal Beretta .380 as a backup. Others that I flew
with carried a variety of weapons such as the Browning Hi-power 9mm
and S&W Mod. 29 44 Mag.
Folks I know who operated in "special" operations AKA Ravens carried
everything from Win. Mod 12 pumps to Thompson 45s.
Jet operations don't allow for carriage of assault rifles in general,
but in past years there were break-down survival rifles carried in
seat kits.
Currently aircrews in combat ops carry the Beretta 9 MM usually in a
holster on the survival vest. Ejection retention is not a problem.
Let me suggest that Finnish sources are not the best information about
what US combat aircrews do and don't do.
Harold Hutchison
> I have heard and read about them often having their privately owned
> handguns with them, and also heard of those being a risk during
> ejections. Now I was told in a discussion in a Finnish local newsgroup,
> that USAF pilots are issued an assault rifle as a part of their flight
> equipment and found it hard to believe.
> is true. I am also interested in hearing, how the gun would be made to
> stay with the pilot during an ejection from the aircraft.
get three clips. I've heard that some pilots replace their issued
ammunition with Black Talons or other hollowpoints, but I've not been
able to confirm that.
The rifle in question may be one of two things:
The M6 survival rifle which has both a .410 shotgun barrel and
a .22 rifle.
The AR-7 .22 rifle.
Both would be in the pilot's survival kit. The pistol is in
his holster, which is kept VERY securely attached to him when over
hostile territory.
--
"I'm waiting to see how they are going to try blame this one on me."
- Ollie North on Iran-Bosnia
José Herculano
> USAF pilots and aircrew are issued a Beretta 9mm for combat sorties as
> part of their survival gear (at least in ejection seat aircraft).
I seem to remember that there are several models of Beretta 9mm. Which
model is this one?
--
José Herculano
Stephen M. Ryan
José Herculano (herc...@mail.telepac.pt) wrote:
: I seem to remember that there are several models of Beretta 9mm. Which
: model is this one?
Model 92F.
Steve Ryan
Brian
I can't speak for the Air Force, but USN aviators get issued pistols if
they're flying into a potentially hostile situation. During DS, we
carried either issued 9MM's, the older 38 revolver (yep, it was *very*
ancient), or a personally acquired sidearm - usually the CO or CAG had to
approve the sqdn going this route (it might even have been the CV CO who
had to approve this, as he controls the weapons aboard ship). Never heard
of any aircrew being issued a rifle of any sort - course, the AF usually
has better equipment anyway (i.e. the AWACS crews I flew with had way
better helmets than I did - lighter, more comfortable, form-fit - and
they never even wear helmets!), so they probably carry some super-small
laser-scoped .50 cal machine gun ;-) I can't imagine ejecting or bailing
out with a rifle, and they don't fit in the seat-pack, and I would rather
have other stuff in the seat-pack anyway.
--
Brian "Whiz" Whisenant.
former E-2C Hawkeye Mission Commander
Ann Arbor, MI
*********************************************************************
* The opinions expressed herein are mine alone, and do not represent* *
* those of the Ford Motor Company, the US Government, God, or anyone* *
* else. Does that about cover it? ************************************
**********************************
Bob Niland
Harold Hutchison (hhutc...@cornell-iowa.edu) wrote:
> The rifle in question may be one of two things:
> The M6 survival rifle which has both a .410 shotgun barrel and a .22 rifle.
> The AR-7 .22 rifle.
We still don't know what the source is for the original assertion about
aircrew carrying "assault" weapons.
There was a proposal back around 1970 to equip crews with a Colt "IMP",
for defense/survival. The IMP was a 30-rd box-magazine bullpup pistol
chambered for the .221 Fireball. The IMP certainly looked like an
"assault weapon" to those who have an assault weapon fixation.
The IMP never went into production, much less service (although similar
designs are available, like the "Bushmaster", based on bull-pup rebuilds
of M-16/AR-15 receivers).
Regards, 1001-A East Harmony Road
Bob Niland Suite 503
Internet: r...@csn.net Fort Collins
Unless otherwise specifically stated, Colorado 80525 USA
expressing personal opinions and NOT
speaking for any employer, client or
Internet Service Provider.
ptsmith
Mikko Pietil{ wrote:
> ...
> Now I was told in a discussion in a Finnish local newsgroup,
> that USAF pilots are issued an assault rifle as a part of their flight
> equipment and found it hard to believe.
In the 1950's (or 1960's) Armalite developed the AR10 (I think). This
was a .22 rifle. It used to break up into its component parts that could
all be stored within the hollow butt of the rifle. I can't remember of
ot was semiautomatic or single shot. There was a commercial version of
the rifle called the Explorer which was chambered for the.22LR
cartridge.
ptsmith
Kristan Roberge
"José Herculano" <herc...@mail.telepac.pt> wrote:
>
> > USAF pilots and aircrew are issued a Beretta 9mm for combat sorties as
> > part of their survival gear (at least in ejection seat aircraft).
>
> model is this one?
This is true. The M9 is the model carried as I recall, which is the
military code for the standard civilian Beratta 92F 9mm, 15 rounds
in the mag, one in the pipe. There is ALSO a FULL-Auto version to
the beretta 9mm pistol, which uses a small additional handgrip just
in front of the trigger guard, and an extended (think its 20 round)
magazine. This is seen used (ok it was fiction BUT the gun is real)
in the movie Broken Arrow by John Travolta's character in the shootout
late in the movie when he's in the boxcar firing at the helicopter.
Perhaps the full-auto version is issued to pilots of the REALLY special
aircraft who are very expensive to train.
Kristan Roberge
Brian <bwhise...@e-mail.com> wrote:
> laser-scoped .50 cal machine gun ;-) I can't imagine ejecting or bailing
> out with a rifle, and they don't fit in the seat-pack, and I would rather
> have other stuff in the seat-pack anyway.
>
There is an adapted civilan survival rifle that has a removable plastic
stock which doubles as the carrying case for the rife. Its semi-auto
chambered for .22LR and uses a 7 shot magazine. The rifle floats whether
its assembled or disassembled inside the stock. It weighs maybe 4 or
5 Ibs loaded as I recall and the stock isn't more 18" long as i recall.
It'd be most useful for a downed pilot to hunt small game (alot better
for shooting small animals at 30 yards than the pistol) and little
else.
Bob Niland
ptsmith (pts...@cs.strath.ac.uk) wrote:
> In the 1950's (or 1960's) Armalite developed the AR10 (I think). This
> was a .22 rifle. It used to break up into its component parts that could
> all be stored within the hollow butt of the rifle. I can't remember of
That would be the AR-7, which may still be available in the retail
market. The AR-10 was a large selective-fire 7.62mm (Win .308) rifle
that looked much like an oversize M-16. There were some overseas sales,
but as far as I know, the AR-10 was never issued to US forces.
TIMOTHY GUEGUEN
Kristan Roberge (Krob...@magi.com) wrote:
the second Beretta pistol you refer to is the Model 93R. I don't know
whether any US forces have ever used this weapon, but I wouldn't be
surprised if the Special Forces folks train with them. They train with
various foreign weapons they might encounter abroad. There was also an
earlier "machine pistol" from Beretta, the Model 951, but it was little
more than a Beretta Model 51 modified to fire full auto.
tim gueguen ad...@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca
Ross Dillon
Kristan Roberge <Krob...@magi.com> wrote in article
<51kcgl$e...@news.istar.ca>...
It's called an AR-7 and I used to own one. Believe me, it would not fit in
a survival pack, nor is it accurate enough to be useful for anything over
100 feet.
Keith Wood
In article <323D6F...@cs.strath.ac.uk>,
ptsmith <pts...@cs.strath.ac.uk> wrote:
[Mikko Pietil{ wrote:
[> ...
[> Now I was told in a discussion in a Finnish local newsgroup,
[> that USAF pilots are issued an assault rifle as a part of their flight
[> equipment and found it hard to believe.
[> ...
[In the 1950's (or 1960's) Armalite developed the AR10 (I think).
AR-7. The AR-10 was the 7.62 x 51mm NATO rifle that was derated into
5.56mm and called the M-16/AR-15.
I don't think the AR-7 was ever issued. The M-7 Scout was the issue
survival rifle, .22 hornet over a 20 ga shotgun.
Steve GREGG
In <323D6F...@cs.strath.ac.uk> ptsmith <pts...@cs.strath.ac.uk>
writes:
>Mikko Pietil{ wrote:
>> ...
>> Now I was told in a discussion in a Finnish local newsgroup,
>> that USAF pilots are issued an assault rifle as a part of their
flight
>> equipment and found it hard to believe.
>> ...
Bullshit.
If you are a pilot downed behind enemy lines, the last thing in the
world you want to do is engage the enemy in a firefight that you will
surely lose. Your mission is to escape and evade the enemy. You have
no reason to carry an assault rifle nor is there room for one in the
cockpit of a fighter. In some survival kits in the Air Force, though
not in the seat kit of fighters, there was a combination shotgun/22 cal
rifle for hunting. That's it.
Steve
Pete Bowen
kei...@bctv.com (Keith Wood) wrote:
>In article <323D6F...@cs.strath.ac.uk>,
>ptsmith <pts...@cs.strath.ac.uk> wrote:
>[Mikko Pietil{ wrote:
>[> ...
>[> Now I was told in a discussion in a Finnish local newsgroup,
>[> that USAF pilots are issued an assault rifle as a part of their flight
>[> equipment and found it hard to believe.
>[> ...
>[
>[In the 1950's (or 1960's) Armalite developed the AR10 (I think).
>AR-7. The AR-10 was the 7.62 x 51mm NATO rifle that was derated into
>5.56mm and called the M-16/AR-15.
>I don't think the AR-7 was ever issued. The M-7 Scout was the issue
>survival rifle, .22 hornet over a 20 ga shotgun.
US fighter/attack pilots carry the standard 9mm pistol when flying in
combat or similiar situations.
cor...@ridgecrest.ca.us
hhutc...@cornell-iowa.edu (Harold Hutchison) wrote:
>> A good question is "pilots of what aircraft?" I knew some F16 pilots who
>> were based out of Spangdahlem in Germany during the Gulf war, and they
>> were issued .38 revolvers. Due to a sale at the Rod & Gun club on the
>> base at Bitburg (another airbase near Spangdahlem), a large number of F16
>> pilots deployed to Turkey with personally owned CZ75's. Of course, that
>> was then, and they may have had their revolvers replaced with M9's...
> I'd also heard that some went with some of the more lethal
>ammo they bought at the gun store when they heard they were alerted
>for deployment. Dunno how true that was, but there was that.
> Also, in Flight of the Intruder, Jake Grafton used a .357
>revolver as his gun. It had more punch than the regularly issued .38s
>that other A-6 pilots used. But pilots using their own stuff is not
>an uncommon occurence.
I believe they only carry guns when going into a potential combat
situation. I read an article in one of the Naval Aviation magazines
written by a pilot whose squadron deployed to the Gulf during Desert
Storm. They all went gun happy, getting there own weapons and
bringing them with them. Everything was well and good until they had
a couple of near mis-fires in the ready room while cleaning weapons.
A Marine Warrant I work with also told me of some of the stranger
things pilot's have requested when flying into combat - strangest
among them (to me at least) was the one guy who wanted a LAW.
Tim
Chris
In article <525m11$1...@newsgate.duke.edu>, psb...@acpub.duke.edu (Pete
Bowen) wrote:
A good question is "pilots of what aircraft?" I knew some F16 pilots who
were based out of Spangdahlem in Germany during the Gulf war, and they
were issued .38 revolvers. Due to a sale at the Rod & Gun club on the
base at Bitburg (another airbase near Spangdahlem), a large number of F16
pilots deployed to Turkey with personally owned CZ75's. Of course, that
was then, and they may have had their revolvers replaced with M9's...
--
King of the Impulse Buyers
Harold Hutchison
> A good question is "pilots of what aircraft?" I knew some F16 pilots who
> were based out of Spangdahlem in Germany during the Gulf war, and they
> were issued .38 revolvers. Due to a sale at the Rod & Gun club on the
> base at Bitburg (another airbase near Spangdahlem), a large number of F16
> pilots deployed to Turkey with personally owned CZ75's. Of course, that
> was then, and they may have had their revolvers replaced with M9's...
ammo they bought at the gun store when they heard they were alerted
for deployment. Dunno how true that was, but there was that.
Also, in Flight of the Intruder, Jake Grafton used a .357
revolver as his gun. It had more punch than the regularly issued .38s
that other A-6 pilots used. But pilots using their own stuff is not
an uncommon occurence.
The most beautiful thing about a tree is what you do with it AFTER you
cut it down. - Undeniable Truth of Life #8, as stated by Rush Limbaugh
Andrew Langlois
In article <1996Sep2...@cornell-iowa.edu>,
hhutc...@cornell-iowa.edu (Harold Hutchison) wrote:
> I'd also heard that some went with some of the more lethal
> ammo they bought at the gun store when they heard they were alerted
> for deployment. Dunno how true that was, but there was that.
>
"more lethal" ammo?? Does this Kill the enemy twice? kill them worse? make
them deader? hhhmmmmmmm
Andy
TIMOTHY GUEGUEN
5212...@kip10-gb5511.hitchcock.org>:
Organization: Saskatoon Free-Net
Distribution:
Andrew Langlois (andrew....@hitchcock.org) wrote:
: In article <1996Sep2...@cornell-iowa.edu>,
: hhutc...@cornell-iowa.edu (Harold Hutchison) wrote:
: Andy
Presumably he means hollowpoints, which of course are potentially more
leathal than a straight slug. Of course, these are the same thing as
"dum-dum" bullets, which are prohibited by the Geneva Convention. The
prohibition on hollowpoints under international "rules" of war is pretty
quaint when you think of stuff like the number of people killed and
maimed by discarded landmines every year.
tim gueguen ad...@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca
Bob Niland
Bryan Walker (br...@domark.com) wrote:
> The fact that none of us had any faith in these weapons led most
> of us to rely on somewhat unorthodox armament, including Desert Eagles,
> Mac-10s and 11s, and even some CAR-15A2s.
The weapons themselves may really only a be concern to the chain of
command. The ammunition is another matter.
Here's a question.
Is ball ammo available for the Eagle? (I know it is for the MACs & CAR)
> We were fortunate in that our chain of command (comprised of lifelong
> hunters and former SF commanders) promised harsh disciplinary action
> against any pilot caught with an unauthorized weapon, but conveniently
> looked the other way during the brief instances when we had them in
> sight.
It has been mentioned in this thread that using anything other than
"ball" (full metal jacket) ammo is a Geneva violation. I presume that,
irrespective of the weapon, and whether fired or not, possession of
non-Geneva ammo by a captured pilot would expose that pilot to a charge
of being a "war criminal", especially if captured by an enemy that was
inclined to exaggerate or even fabricate in order to make such charges.
Any pilot captured with hollowpoint (or even target wadcutter) rounds
might well retrospectively wish that the commander had earlier delivered
some harsh discipline.
I suspect that for aircrew who find themselves on the ground in
opposition territory, there are three scenarios involving self-defense
sidearms:
1. Evaded and escaped without using the weapon. In this case, the
ammo type (or even having the weapon) is largely irrelevant.
2. Captured, whether weapon used or not. In this case, the weapon and
ammo is likely to fall into enemy hands, and having Politically
Incorrect ammo may actually increase the risk of not surviving for
the duration. Plus, the enemy can probably be counted on to hold a
press conference showcasing the "war criminal" and the "illegal
dum-dum ammunition".
3. Evaded and escaped, and did use the weapon. I suspect that this
is the least common scenario, and is the only one in which having
the edge of high-performance (non-Geneva) ammo might be a benefit.
Leaving an old beater .38 in the locker and packing a modern FBI-class
S&W .41 auto may be a no-brainer, but taking along clips full of
jacketed hollow points for that .41 is not. Non-Geneva ammo is probably
not worth the new risk it creates.
I'd suggest: if you can't get ball ammo for your personal heat, don't
pack it. Take the issue weapon instead.
Bryan Walker
> Here's a question.
> Is ball ammo available for the Eagle? (I know it is for the MACs & CAR)<
If memory serves, the Eagles (they come in several calibers) were using
standard-issue .45 ball. The Macs were 9mm, again ball. The CAR of
course used 5.56.
> It has been mentioned in this thread that using anything other than
> "ball" (full metal jacket) ammo is a Geneva violation. I presume that, irrespective of the weapon, and whether fired or not, possession of non-Geneva ammo by a captured pilot would expose that pilot to a charge of being a "war criminal", especially if captured by an enemy that was inclined to exaggerate or even fabricate in order to make such charges.<<
That argument may have some roundabout validity, but I don't think if
the Bad Guys who captured you didn't already consider you a "war
criminal" for zapping their friends during your mission, a couple of
clips of Black Talons wouldn't push them over the edge. And, given the
treatment most POWs enjoyed at the hands of the Iraqis, it seems that
everyone in a flight suit was branded a "war criminal" regardless.
> Any pilot captured with hollowpoint (or even target wadcutter) rounds
> might well retrospectively wish that the commander had earlier delivered some harsh discipline.<
I tend to doubt it, but I lack the experience of ever having been
captured with that kind of ammunition to back me up. I do have the
benefit of attending SERE school at Fort Bragg, and that tended to put a
pretty thorough fear of being captured in me.
> 2. Captured, whether weapon used or not. In this case, the weapon and ammo is likely to fall into enemy hands, and having Politically
Incorrect ammo may actually increase the risk of not surviving for the
duration.<
If you have have to use personal weapon, chances you'll be killed
rather than escape:
In a medium-intensity conflict it's unlikely you'll be discovered by a
single troop out of earshot from the rest of his unit, so the odds of
you going undiscovered with your first shot are virtually nil. Once
discovered by a patrol carrying assault rifles after shooting one of
their comrades, your fate has been pretty much decided.
>Plus, the enemy can probably be counted on to hold a
>press conference showcasing the "war criminal" and the "illegal
>dum-dum ammunition".<
These kinds of ammunition have been in use unofficially since the
Korean War, if not earlier, and I'm not aware of any such examples as
you describe taking place.
> 3. Evaded and escaped, and did use the weapon. I suspect that this
>is the least common scenario, and is the only one in which having
>the edge of high-performance (non-Geneva) ammo might be a benefit.<
Frankly, I think the effect of "non-Geneva" ammo is overrated in a
stress-fire situation. Even so, going undetected is by far your best
chance of survival.
> I'd suggest: if you can't get ball ammo for your personal heat, don't
> pack it. Take the issue weapon instead.<
Not a bad suggestion, depending on the issue weapon.
-BW
WarpTwelve
In article <51tk4t$o...@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, smg...@ix.netcom.com
(Steve GREGG) writes:
>>
>>Mikko Pietil{ wrote:
>>> ...
>>> Now I was told in a discussion in a Finnish local newsgroup,
>>> that USAF pilots are issued an assault rifle as a part of their
>flight
>>> equipment and found it hard to believe.
>>> ...
>
>
>Bullshit.
>
>If you are a pilot downed behind enemy lines, the last thing in the
>world you want to do is engage the enemy in a firefight that you will
>surely lose. Your mission is to escape and evade the enemy. You have
>no reason to carry an assault rifle nor is there room for one in the
>cockpit of a fighter. In some survival kits in the Air Force, though
>not in the seat kit of fighters, there was a combination shotgun/22 cal
>rifle for hunting. That's it.
>
>
As a bit of trivia, Heckler and Koch has been trying to interest the
customers in a submachine gun for aircrews and other troops which don't
require full-sized rifles, which is based on their MP-5K weapon. The
normal MP-5K is a very short subgun normally used without any sort of
shoulder stock (but in this application has a stock which folds over to
one side of the gun) and is normally held with pistol grips on both the
front and the rear of the weapon. The complete package, as proposed by
H&K, would have the weapon carried in a holster attached to the pilot's
leg along with extra clips of ammunition and a detachable sound
suupressor. This weapon was in production a few years ago - whether or
not they have had any sales to the US military is another question.
J.McEachen
Andrew Langlois wrote:
>
> In article <1996Sep2...@cornell-iowa.edu>,
> hhutc...@cornell-iowa.edu (Harold Hutchison) wrote:
>
> > I'd also heard that some went with some of the more lethal
> > ammo they bought at the gun store when they heard they were alerted
> > for deployment. Dunno how true that was, but there was that.
rescuers could spot us. The other half was for an attempt at defense.
I never needed it. We shot expired ammo at the wake off the fantail.
Francis 7
I knew a Tomcat RIO on my last deployment earlier this year who carried his
own personally MAC-10 on all flights in the Gulf. He had to go down and
check it in and out from the armory for every hop, but he said it was worth
it.
Charles Holzer
When I was a C-141 crewmember in MAC, except on local training flights,
at least 2 crewmembers were armed at all times. We were issued S&W .38's
and hollow point ammo. This was primarily for anti-hijacking measures, as
the weapons were kept concealed. Warning shots were not authorized. We
had written authorization for the concealement and hollow point rounds.
The armed crewmembers changed from day to day and we were required to
keep the the aircraft commander informed as to who was carrying. On some
special missions, all crewmembers were armed. We had some difficulty at
times, especially in non-NATO countries with the weapons\ammo. Going
through customs in Yemen was a bit awkward when we kept setting off the
metal detectors and the agents wanted to know why. When 7 of us pulled .
38's out of the shoulder holsters, the eyes lit up. They were not amused.
Chuck-VAY
Simon H. Lee
>A Marine Warrant I work with also told me of some of the stranger
>things pilot's have requested when flying into combat - strangest
>among them (to me at least) was the one guy who wanted a LAW.
>
>Tim
Going even further with that... a Stinger. ("That #%*(^(% shot me
down! I want the last word!")
Steve GREGG
In <01bbad06$bd180e60$7a85...@iwasptste.simdiego.com> "Francis 7"
Tell Rambo the RIO he needs a new helmet. The one he's wearing may be
too tight if he thinks that getting into a big firefight behind enemy
lines, his own self versus the Iraqi Army, is a particularly brilliant
piece of tactical wisdom. The approved solution is to escape and
evade. If you need to fire your weapon, you've lost because even if
you do win that gunfight you have signalled your position to every bad
guy within earshot.
Steve
TIMOTHY GUEGUEN
Steve GREGG (smg...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: In <01bbad06$bd180e60$7a85...@iwasptste.simdiego.com> "Francis 7"
: Steve
Yeah, a subgun isn't the best idea if you're shot down behind enemy
lines. A better idea would be something like the silenced 7.62mm pistol
one of the Russian arms firms makes. Its supposed to be no louder than
an airgun. On the other hand, it might not look too good in some folks
eyes if they capture you with a spy type gun like that. Having a
silenced Ruger or Hi Standard .22 (can't remember which make) in his
plane didn't help Gary Powers much when he was shot down.
tim gueguen ad...@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca
Vasco Almeida
Could someone please answer the following questions for me:
1)Ppl are refering to the Geneva convention about "hollow points".Isn't
Geneva connected with the treatment of POW's?I thought the Hague treaties
dealt with items of war.
2)Did the US actually sign the treaty that dealt with items like hollow
points?
3)Do pilots and passengers carry a round in the chamber of their weapons
when they fly?I ask this because their is always a risk of an AD in the
cabin,especially with ancient weapons like the blunderbuss and the Colt
M1911. :)
Thanks
--VFA--
Ed Rasimus
060...@midas.wits.ac.za (Vasco Almeida) wrote:
>Could someone please answer the following questions for me:
>1)Ppl are refering to the Geneva convention about "hollow points".Isn't
>Geneva connected with the treatment of POW's?I thought the Hague treaties
>dealt with items of war.
Most references to the Geneva Conventions are about POW treatment, but
the agreements also covered rules of war, including use of such things
as poison gas and fully jacketed bullets.
>2)Did the US actually sign the treaty that dealt with items like hollow
>points?
Yes.
>3)Do pilots and passengers carry a round in the chamber of their weapons
>when they fly?I ask this because their is always a risk of an AD in the
>cabin,especially with ancient weapons like the blunderbuss and the Colt
>M1911. :)
It obviously depends upon the weapon. USAF aircrew weapons varied over
the years. Units with the S&W .38 Combat Masterpiece carried five or
six rounds in the cylinder depending upon pilot preference--sometimes
ball ammo, sometimes tracer. The gun is perfectly safe with a round
under the hammer.
Units which carried the 1911 Colt (none have, for years), generally
carried it in "condition three"--hammer down, chamber empty.
The Beretta M-9 can safely be carried with a round chambered and the
hammer down, allowing for immediate double-action first round. Again,
it's pilot preference whether the round is chambered or not.
I've never heard of an aircrew AD, but anything is possible.
Andrew Langlois
>
> : > I'd also heard that some went with some of the more lethal
> : > ammo they bought at the gun store when they heard they were alerted
> : > for deployment. Dunno how true that was, but there was that.
> : >
>
> : "more lethal" ammo?? Does this Kill the enemy twice? kill them worse? make
> : them deader? hhhmmmmmmm
>
>
> : Andy
> Presumably he means hollowpoints, which of course are potentially more
> leathal than a straight slug. Of course, these are the same thing as
> "dum-dum" bullets, which are prohibited by the Geneva Convention. The
> prohibition on hollowpoints under international "rules" of war is pretty
> quaint when you think of stuff like the number of people killed and
> maimed by discarded landmines every year.
>
> tim gueguen ad...@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca
Tim,
Hollow Popints are NOT dum-dums!!! DD's are explosive rounds!! Holowpoints
expand...they do not explode!
Andrew
Matt Clonfero
In message <324fe095...@news.rmii.com> Ed Rasimus wrote:
> Most references to the Geneva Conventions are about POW treatment, but
> the agreements also covered rules of war, including use of such things
> as poison gas and fully jacketed bullets.
Are you sure? I'm 99% certain that poison gas is covered by the Hague
Convention.
Aetherem Vincere
Matt.
--
===============================================================================
Matt Clonfero (ma...@aetherem.demon.co.uk) | To err is human,
My employer & I have a deal - they don't | To forgive is not Air Force Policy.
speak for me, and I don't speak for them. | -- Anon, ETPS
Erik Shilling
snipped a lot
>Hollow Popints are NOT dum-dums!!! DD's are explosive rounds!!
Holowpoints
>expand...they do not explode!
>
>Andrew
Dum Dum Bullet was indeed a hollow point. They originated in India at
the dum dum arsenal not far from Calcutta. They were made and used
long before explosive rounds were ever available.
The Dum Dum did expand as they hit.
Incidently Calcutta's international airport is named Dum Dum which is
not far from the factory where the original Dum Dum round was first
made.
I was Stationed in Calcutta, India during the war and have seen the Dum
Dum arsenal.
sincerely,
--
Erik Shilling Author; Destiny: A Flying Tiger's
Flight Leader Rendezvous With Fate.
3rd Squadron AVG
Flying Tigers
Andy Dingley
The moving finger of andrew....@hitchcock.org (Andrew Langlois)
having written:
>"more lethal" ammo?? Does this Kill the enemy twice? kill them worse?
Yes, it kills them worse.
The British invented it in India (by accident). Rumours spread that
the paper cartridges of the day contained a bullet lubricated by pork
fat. Shoot a moslem with one of those and you not only kill him, but
make him ritually impure and thus suffer problems getting into
paradise. Similar rumours spread that it was in fact beef dripping
used as a lubricant, and so the Hindu soldiers became squeamish about
having to open the cartridge by biting the end off.
The upshot of this was the founding of the Nepalese Gurkha regiments,
which are still an important part of the British Army today. Although
mainly vegetarians, the Gurkhas knew the difference between ammunition
and a foodstuff.
BTW - Dum Dums aren't pyrotechically explosive either - they're
another prouct of the British colonial era in India. Look it up some
time and see how they got the name.
Clark Anderson
In article <andrew.langlois-...@kip10-gb5511.hitchcock.org>,
andrew....@hitchcock.org (Andrew Langlois) wrote:
> Hollow Popints are NOT dum-dums!!! DD's are explosive rounds!! Holowpoints
> expand...they do not explode!
>
> Andrew
I think you are mistaken. Traditionally, a 'dum-dum' round has a
simple X cut into the nose of the slug to cause it to expand.
This was commonly done in the 19th century when round-nose
plain lead slugs were in use (they hadn't started jacketing
rifle/pistol rounds yet as muzzle velocities were still
moderate). 'Dum-dum' slugs have been around long before
explosive rounds. A hollowpoint is a refinement of a 'dum-dum'.
--clark
John Eckhardt
> >2)Did the US actually sign the treaty that dealt with items like hollow
> >points?
>
The treaty (the Hague Convention) actually bans ammunition designed "to
cause unnecessary suffering" and has generally been interpreted to ban
explosive (and, by extension, hollow point) ammunition for anti-personnel
use. Most modern military ammo is fully jacketed, both as an
overcompensation to the requirements of the treaty, and because semi and
full automatic weapons generallyu function more reliably with that type of
ammo. Recently, the Judge advocate General of the Army issued an opinion
that Army snipers could use standard match ammo (which happens to be a
boat-tailed, jacketed, hollow-point) operationally. The logic was that
this hollow point ammo was designed for accuracy (something about the
hollow point making the bullet more stable and placing the bullet's center
of gravity more to the rear) rather than being designed to "cause
unnecessary suffering."
>
> >3)Do pilots and passengers carry a round in the chamber of their weapons
> >when they fly?I ask this because their is always a risk of an AD in the
> >cabin,especially with ancient weapons like the blunderbuss and the Colt
> >M1911. :)
AFAIK, troops riding on helos do not chjamber a round until just before
landing in a hot LZ. Also, I've been told that it was common practice in
Vietnam to keep weapons muzzle down when riding in a helo, so that an AD
wouuld go through the floor, rather than up into the engine.
John Eckhardt
>
Larry Bump
060...@midas.wits.ac.za (Vasco Almeida) wrote:
>Could someone please answer the following questions for me:
>1)Ppl are refering to the Geneva convention about "hollow points".Isn't
>Geneva connected with the treatment of POW's?I thought the Hague treaties
>dealt with items of war.
You are absolutely correct. People keep saying "Geneva this, Geneva
that...", when they are meaning to reference the Hague Accords.
Do you ever wonder how much you can trust their interpretation, when
they don't even know what document they are referring to?
>2)Did the US actually sign the treaty that dealt with items like hollow
>points?
No, the USA is NOT a signatory to the applicable Hague Accord. This
will not, however, keep an individual or CO from being tried as a war
criminal after the fact, nor keep you from being summarily executed in
the field when they catch you with a mag full of Black Talons.
The Japanese violated no treaties that they were signatories to, but
they were hanged nontheless.
>3)Do pilots and passengers carry a round in the chamber of their weapons
>when they fly?I ask this because their is always a risk of an AD in the
>cabin,especially with ancient weapons like the blunderbuss and the Colt
>M1911. :)
Where do you see a possibility of an AD (ND) in a holstered, saftied
1911, even in condition 1?
I believe that most are carried in Condition 2 (hammer down on a
loaded chamber), however. There is scant need for a quick reaction
draw and shoot in the cockpit, but this keeps one more round loaded.
There is no chance of a dropped weapon causing a discharge; there
isn't enough room to fall to build up the needed momentum.
(I realize this is a troll paragraph, but if a lie is repeated often
enough, some fool will believe it if it goes unanswered. Stop it.)
Larry "shooter, not a pilot" Bump
>Thanks
>--VFA--
Steve GREGG
In <52nlgk$8...@tribune.usask.ca> ad...@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (TIMOTHY
If you survive the initial capture you are more likely to survive.
Your biggest threat is the first guys who catch you. If they are wild
ass local boys then you have a greater chance of being killed. Your
best chance of surviving is to fall into the hands of officers of the
enemy force soon after hitting the ground. By the time they get around
to examining your gear in detail, the decision to kill or keep you has
usually been made already.
Of course, there are exceptions. The Japanese preferred to kill
American flyers they captured. For example, they killed all the pilots
they captured at Midway. I do not know of any Allied flyer who was
captured at sea by a Japanese warship and lived to tell the tale.
Mary Shafer
On Mon, 30 Sep 1996 23:56:22 GMT, din...@codesmth.demon.co.uk (Andy Dingley) said:
A> The British invented it in India (by accident). Rumours spread that
A> the paper cartridges of the day contained a bullet lubricated by
A> pork fat. Shoot a moslem with one of those and you not only kill
A> him, but make him ritually impure and thus suffer problems getting
A> into paradise. Similar rumours spread that it was in fact beef
A> dripping used as a lubricant, and so the Hindu soldiers became
A> squeamish about having to open the cartridge by biting the end off.
Not quite, but close. The British Raj had both Islamic and Hindu
units. The Islamic soldiers, not their targets, were the ones made
impure by ingesting pork fat.
Remember that the Partition between Islamic and Hindu people came
after World War II, as a part of setting India and Pakistan free.
British India included both.
A> The upshot of this was the founding of the Nepalese Gurkha
A> regiments, which are still an important part of the British Army
A> today. Although mainly vegetarians, the Gurkhas knew the difference
A> between ammunition and a foodstuff.
Anything you bite part of off and have in your mouth becomes subject
to dietary laws. Check out rec.food.veg on the subject of animal
products or soc.culture.jewish on the rules of Kashrut. Or ask vegans
about leather shoes, cochineal in lipstick, and silk.
--
Mary Shafer NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, CA
SR-71 Flying Qualities Lead Engineer Of course I don't speak for NASA
sha...@ferhino.dfrc.nasa.gov DoD #362 KotFR
URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html
For personal messages, please use sha...@ursa-major.spdcc.com
John S. Shinal
thu...@rmii.com (Ed Rasimus) wrote:
> >>060...@midas.wits.ac.za (Vasco Almeida) wrote:
> >>3)Do pilots and passengers carry a round in the chamber of their weapons
> >>when they fly?I ask this because their is always a risk of an AD in the
> >>cabin,especially with ancient weapons like the ... Colt M1911. :)
>It obviously depends upon the weapon. USAF aircrew weapons varied over
>the years. Units with the S&W .38 Combat Masterpiece carried five or
>six rounds in the cylinder depending upon pilot preference--sometimes
>ball ammo, sometimes tracer. The gun is perfectly safe with a round
>under the hammer.
>Units which carried the 1911 Colt (none have, for years), generally
>carried it in "condition three"--hammer down, chamber empty.
>The Beretta M-9 can safely be carried with a round chambered and the
>hammer down, allowing for immediate double-action first round. Again,
>it's pilot preference whether the round is chambered or not.
It figures that Ed would be the one who understands carry differences
between these three firearms (that's a compliment, not a slam).
The M-9 uses a hammer-block safety - when the safety is engaged, there
is a big hunk of steel between the hammer and the firing pin. The
1911A1 is a much touchier beast, especially some of the ones I've seen
and shot.
Interestingly, though, none of these is really very good as a pure
survival weapon...
Let's face it, if you want to eat a rabbit, snake or bird, a .22LR is
the machine of choice...less meat damage. Sure, you can take a head
shot, but can you do that when exhausted, hungry and injured ?
And a .38, 9mmx19 or .45ACP round is going to be rather puny against
any animal that decides to eat you.
This sounds like a job for two different guns...impractical as that
may sound, it would be welcome once you were on the ground doing E&E.
John S. Shinal
jsh...@concentric.net
mbacklun
I've been told by people that flew bombers for the 8th AF in Europe that
the first thing to do after being shot down was to throw away your side
arm. Seems they didn't feel like standing off the German army with a
pistol. A pistol might be useful if you run into a bunch of
hostile civilians armed with pitchforks, though. The basic principle
probably holds true in similar situations today.
Chris
In article <01bbaf21$88249120$6958...@jeckhard.emanon.net>, "John
Eckhardt" <jeck...@recom.com> wrote:
> > >2)Did the US actually sign the treaty that dealt with items like hollow
> > >points?
> >
> The treaty (the Hague Convention) actually bans ammunition designed "to
> cause unnecessary suffering" and has generally been interpreted to ban
> explosive (and, by extension, hollow point) ammunition for anti-personnel
> use. Most modern military ammo is fully jacketed, both as an
> overcompensation to the requirements of the treaty, and because semi and
> full automatic weapons generallyu function more reliably with that type of
> ammo. Recently, the Judge advocate General of the Army issued an opinion
> that Army snipers could use standard match ammo (which happens to be a
> boat-tailed, jacketed, hollow-point) operationally. The logic was that
> this hollow point ammo was designed for accuracy (something about the
> hollow point making the bullet more stable and placing the bullet's center
> of gravity more to the rear) rather than being designed to "cause
> unnecessary suffering."
A side note to this- Match hollow point boat tail rounds tend to have very
little structural integrity... that is, they really come apart- they are
NOT like many of the modern hollow point hunting rounds which are designed
to expand into a controlled "mushroom" shape while staying in one piece.
In other words, if these are ok, then I would have no qualms about using
hollowpoint pistol rounds.
--
King of the Impulse Buyers
TMO/TX
In article <52s8qn$g...@herald.concentric.net> jsh...@concentric.net (John S. Shinal) writes:
>thu...@rmii.com (Ed Rasimus) wrote:
>>It obviously depends upon the weapon. USAF aircrew weapons varied over
>>the years. Units with the S&W .38 Combat Masterpiece carried five or
>>six rounds in the cylinder depending upon pilot preference--sometimes
>>ball ammo, sometimes tracer. The gun is perfectly safe with a round
>>under the hammer.
In 1960s issue ordnance for Naval Aviators was S&W Model 10 M&P cal .38SPC
normally loaded with tracer rounds. Aviators who went swimming after dark
often fired their sidearms to attract helos and plane guard DDs. Few reports
of helos shot down or DDs sunk. Note for conspiracists: Vertical range of
.38 SPC less than 13,000'.
el pelon sinverguenza
David Lednicer
I have put some thought into this issue, and while carrying a
sidearm into combat might seem comforting to a pilot, it is really of not
much use.
If you are going to be captured, the last thing you want to do is
shoot at your future captors immediately before falling into their hands.
This tends to get them mad...
If you want to be rescued, the last thing you want to do is
announce your presence - instead you want to hide until help arrives.
Only then might the sidearm be handy in holding the bad guys off.
I have read many accounts of pilots being downed and the only
good use I have ever seen for a sidearm is an Israeli pilot who destroyed
his rescue radio with it immediately before being captured. The downside
is that he says he was almost killed by the ricochets!
As an aside, the way the Soviets first figured out that Francis
Gary Powers was one of ours (US, that is) is that his pistol had "US"
stamped into it.
Lastly, there is Lodge or Locher (I can never remember which),
who stayed at large in North Vietnam for 30+ days before being rescued.
Does anyone out there know if he used his sidearm? I got the impression
that he just stayed hidden during the day and went foraging for food at
night.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
David Lednicer | "Applied Computational Fluid Dynamics"
Analytical Methods, Inc. | email: da...@amiwest.com
2133 152nd Ave NE | tel: (206) 643-9090
Redmond, WA 98052 USA | fax: (206) 746-1299
Edward Zager
Wasn't "Pappy" Boyington picked up by a Japanese warship (sub) after he was
shot down? (after being heavily strafed in the water by some Japanese planes)
Edward Zager
Corsair
On Fri, 27 Sep 1996 17:33:23 -0500, Bryan Walker <br...@domark.com>
wrote:
>> Here's a question.
>> Is ball ammo available for the Eagle? (I know it is for the MACs & CAR)<
>
> If memory serves, the Eagles (they come in several calibers) were using
>standard-issue .45 ball. The Macs were 9mm, again ball. The CAR of
>course used 5.56.
>
Memory doesn't serve... The IMI Desert Eagle is available in .357,
44, and .50 calibers, NOT .45.
Corsair
>Leaving an old beater .38 in the locker and packing a modern FBI-class
>S&W .41 auto may be a no-brainer, but taking along clips full of
>jacketed hollow points for that .41 is not. Non-Geneva ammo is probably
>not worth the new risk it creates.
>
FBI .41's??
Could you be referring to the Smith and Wesson designed .40S&W
cartridge that was quite popular with the Feds in the Sig pistol?
Corsair
Benjamin P. Bushong
> Memory doesn't serve... The IMI Desert Eagle is available in .357,
> 44, and .50 calibers, NOT .45.
And the .41 Mag, too, right?
Ed Rasimus
David Lednicer <da...@amiwest.com> wrote:
>I have put some thought into this issue, and while carrying a
>sidearm into combat might seem comforting to a pilot, it is really of not
>much use.
>
> If you are going to be captured, the last thing you want to do is
>shoot at your future captors immediately before falling into their hands.
>This tends to get them mad...
During my first (F-105) tour, I carried a Beretta Cougar .380 auto in
addition to the issued S&W Combat Masteriece. I also had one beeper,
three radios, flares, a survival knife, a cut-down machete,
pen-flares, 200 ft let-down rope, mirror, water, whistle, signal
panels, morphine, atropine, and a Snickers.
Second tour (F-4E) I was five years older, more mature, and firmly
convinced that if I were on the ground, the only thing I would be able
to do with my weapons is hurt myself. I carried only the S&W and it
was loaded with tracer--purely as a signaling device.
>
> Lastly, there is Lodge or Locher (I can never remember which),
>who stayed at large in North Vietnam for 30+ days before being rescued.
>Does anyone out there know if he used his sidearm? I got the impression
>that he just stayed hidden during the day and went foraging for food at
>night.
Roger Locher was on the ground for about three weeks in the summer of
'72. He stayed low and moved slowly to the West off of Thud Ridge
until he was nearly to the Red River. His successful evasion was
impressive to all involved (as was the massive effort to recover him.)
He never used his sidearm, but that doesn't mean he didn't feel quite
a bit better having it with him.
Ed Rasimus *** Peak Computing Magazine
Fighter Pilot (ret) *** (http://peak-computing.com)
*** Ziff-Davis Interactive
Stephen Swartz
In article <cpr-011096...@dial-cup1-24.iway.aimnet.com>, c...@aimet.com (Chris) says:
#
#In article <01bbaf21$88249120$6958...@jeckhard.emanon.net>, "John
#Eckhardt" <jeck...@recom.com> wrote:
#
#> > >2)Did the US actually sign the treaty that dealt with items like hollow
#> > >points?
#> >
#> The treaty (the Hague Convention) actually bans ammunition designed "to
#> cause unnecessary suffering" and has generally been interpreted to ban
#> explosive (and, by extension, hollow point) ammunition for anti-personnel
#> use. Most modern military ammo is fully jacketed, both as an
#> overcompensation to the requirements of the treaty, and because semi and
#> full automatic weapons generallyu function more reliably with that type of
#> ammo. Recently, the Judge advocate General of the Army issued an opinion
#> that Army snipers could use standard match ammo (which happens to be a
#> boat-tailed, jacketed, hollow-point) operationally. The logic was that
#> this hollow point ammo was designed for accuracy (something about the
#> hollow point making the bullet more stable and placing the bullet's center
#> of gravity more to the rear) rather than being designed to "cause
#> unnecessary suffering."
#
#A side note to this- Match hollow point boat tail rounds tend to have very
#little structural integrity... that is, they really come apart- they are
#NOT like many of the modern hollow point hunting rounds which are designed
#to expand into a controlled "mushroom" shape while staying in one piece.
#In other words, if these are ok, then I would have no qualms about using
#hollowpoint pistol rounds.
#
I have added a crossposting to rec.guns for this thread; I realize the
sensitivity to crossposting but I feel that this topic may be best
addressed by the firearms enthusiasts & experts in that group. I take
full responsibility for any breach in netiquette resulting from adding
the thread to the other newsgroup.
Anyhow, I was under the impression that the HPBT "Match" bullets commonly
used by military snipers (150-190 grain class .308 rounds) referred to
above behave more like FMJ bullets than HP rounds in terms of terminal
ballistic performance.
It is my contention that while the hollow nose of the HPBT bullet may
deform upon impact, any "shredding" or "shedding" of the jacket would
be minor and not a factor in either stopping power or tissue damage.
I believe this is why the Army feels it is "legal" to use HPBT rounds
and not HP rounds in rifle ammunition.
*************************************************************************
* =8^) - "For the first time in history, we have formed a system *
* Steve based on the assumption that power rests in the people *
* Swartz and is only sparingly and grudgingly meted to the *
* state in order to secure limited objectives" *
* NRA Life - "The powers not delegated to the United States by the *
* AFA Life Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are *
* reserved to the States respectively, or to the people" *
* ^ the real AFA, not the anti-gun rights group . . . *
*************************************************************************
TIMOTHY GUEGUEN
C5633...@domark.com> <32538aaf...@news.mr.net>
<01bbb0c2$9bd9b220$071: ef...@bbushong.midwest.net>
<32545d63...@news.mr.net> Organization: Saskatoon Free-Net
Distribution:
Corsair (cor...@millcomm.com) wrote:
: On 3 Oct 1996 00:34:53 GMT, "Benjamin P. Bushong"
: <bbus...@midwest.net> wrote:
: >
: >> Memory doesn't serve... The IMI Desert Eagle is available in .357,
: >> 44, and .50 calibers, NOT .45.
: >
: >And the .41 Mag, too, right?
: >
: >
: Quite right, I forgot about the long lost .41 Mag... I stand
: corrected.
: Corsair, The Mostly Harmless
: *****************************************************
: If you took all the politicians
: in the world, and placed them
: in a line arounf the equator,
: That would be pretty cool..
: *****************************************************
I kinda thought that one model of Desert Eagle actually fired .41 Action
Express instead of magnum, but my handgun knowledge can often be spotty.
tim gueguen ad...@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca
Corsair
Alan Davis
Recently, the Judge advocate General of the Army issued an opinion
##> boat-tailed, jacketed, hollow-point) operationally. The logic was that
##> this hollow point ammo was designed for accuracy (something about the
##> hollow point making the bullet more stable and placing the bullet's center
##> of gravity more to the rear) rather than being designed to "cause
##> unnecessary suffering."
##A side note to this- Match hollow point boat tail rounds tend to have very
##little structural integrity... that is, they really come apart- they are
##NOT like many of the modern hollow point hunting rounds which are designed
##to expand into a controlled "mushroom" shape while staying in one piece.
Not exactly. Match HPBT bullets in .30 caliber have to be stoutly
constructed enough to withstand fast twists and high muzzle velocities
when shot in thousand-yard guns with big cases and long barrels. Most
often, and especially at long range, the hollow point folds in on
impact and the bullet drills through like a full metal jacket.
This effect is well-known to prairie dog hunters with .22 centerfires
of the .223 class using thin-jacketed match bullets at 3100 FPS.
Shoot a PD at 100 yards and he literally explodes. Shoot the next one
at 400 and he falls over kicking. This is why Nosler and now Hornady
put the polycarbonate tips in: when they set back on impact, they get
the jacket opening up instead of folding in, and all hell breaks
loose. They go off like BOMBS at all ranges.
I have recovered many match 7mm and .30 cal. boattail hollowpoints
shot into animal flesh at long range, and they stay together. The
exceptions were ones built with thin jackets, and these would
sometimes come apart IN FLIGHT due to high rotational energy and the
jacket being deeply scored by new, sharp rifling. I can't see the
military using this type of projectile, for obvious reasons.
#I have added a crossposting to rec.guns for this thread; I realize the
#sensitivity to crossposting but I feel that this topic may be best
#addressed by the firearms enthusiasts & experts in that group. I take
#full responsibility for any breach in netiquette resulting from adding
#the thread to the other newsgroup.
#Anyhow, I was under the impression that the HPBT "Match" bullets commonly
#used by military snipers (150-190 grain class .308 rounds) referred to
#above behave more like FMJ bullets than HP rounds in terms of terminal
#ballistic performance.
This has been my experience exactly.
Read the book UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES, you will love it. Reviews are on Amazon.com. This is a shameless plug. I am the author.
Corsair
On 3 Oct 1996 21:57:32 GMT, ad...@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca (TIMOTHY
GUEGUEN) wrote:
>: >
>: >> Memory doesn't serve... The IMI Desert Eagle is available in .357,
>: >> 44, and .50 calibers, NOT .45.
>: >
>: >And the .41 Mag, too, right?
>: >
>: >
>
>: Quite right, I forgot about the long lost .41 Mag... I stand
>: corrected.
>
>: Corsair, The Mostly Harmless
>
>
>: *****************************************************
>: If you took all the politicians
>: in the world, and placed them
>: in a line arounf the equator,
>: That would be pretty cool..
>: *****************************************************
>I kinda thought that one model of Desert Eagle actually fired .41 Action
>Express instead of magnum, but my handgun knowledge can often be spotty.
>
>tim gueguen ad...@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca
Nope... BUT, there is a so-callled "Baby-Eagle" based on the CZ-75
that does fire the .41 Action-Express round!
Corsair, The Great and Terrible
*****************************************************
If you took all the politicians
in the world, and placed them
in a line around the equator,
Steve GREGG
In <325196...@amiwest.com> David Lednicer <da...@amiwest.com>
writes:
>I have put some thought into this issue, and while carrying a
>sidearm into combat might seem comforting to a pilot, it is really of
not
>much use.
>
> If you are going to be captured, the last thing you want to do is
>shoot at your future captors immediately before falling into their
hands.
>This tends to get them mad...
It also makes them err on the side of caution and just shoot you. Why
risk your life to capture an enemy pilot who is shooting at you?
Remember that it only seems like most pilots are rescued or captured
because the ones who die never tell their stories.
> If you want to be rescued, the last thing you want to do is
>announce your presence - instead you want to hide until help arrives.
>Only then might the sidearm be handy in holding the bad guys off.
>
> I have read many accounts of pilots being downed and the only
>good use I have ever seen for a sidearm is an Israeli pilot who
destroyed
>his rescue radio with it immediately before being captured. The
downside
>is that he says he was almost killed by the ricochets!
It would also be good for defense against wild animals in the remote
forest and for destroying your raft after you are rescued at sea.
> As an aside, the way the Soviets first figured out that Francis
>Gary Powers was one of ours (US, that is) is that his pistol had "US"
>stamped into it.
How hard would it be for the Russians to figure out what country was
flying U-2s over the Soviet Union? They were tracking the flights soon
after they launched from Turkey. They had agents at the bases.
> Lastly, there is Lodge or Locher (I can never remember which),
>who stayed at large in North Vietnam for 30+ days before being
rescued.
>Does anyone out there know if he used his sidearm? I got the
impression
>that he just stayed hidden during the day and went foraging for food
at
>night.
Nope. He kept his ass low in the grass throughout the whole episode.
So did the F-16 pilot in Bosnia. Notice that both of them survived.
By contrast, Frank Luke decided to shoot it out with the Huns after he
crashed behind the lines in WWI. He's dead.
Steve
Charles Winters
Dear Mr. Swartz: I'm with you, I am operating under the assumption my 180 gr, .30
cal Sierra Matchkings are functionally the same as military ball. I have developed
loads for my M-1 Garand rifle using two bullets, the aforementioned Matchkings and
the 180 gr Nosler Ballistic Tips. Both are very accurate, the Ballistic Tips maybe
having maybe a bit of an edge. In the end, I chose the Matchkings because the
Ballistic Tips are game bullets and will readily expand. Since the intended use of
my M-1 rifle is in defense of my community, God forbid, I don't want to use bullets
designed to "cause unnecessary suffering". Therefore, the suggestion these
hollowpoint match bullets don't hold together upon impact, as military FMJ rounds do,
is troubling. Perhaps some of our readers have information on actual tests of
downrange performance of match type HPBT bullets like the Sierra Matchkings. - CW
Chris Manteuffel
Another example, from the book _Ground Attack Vietnam_, about the
usefullness of pisotls. In the middle, their is a chapter about one
crashed pilots experiance. the OV-10 Bronco that they flew was a two
seater, and the crashed one, the pilot was lost, and the rear seater
surivied. the rear seater, after the last radio contact was made to the
pilot, heard some noises that sounded like a .38. The rear seater, an
experianced infantry man (the OV-10 rear seater wans't a pilot, but an
observer, to see the area while the pilot flew around.) held fire even as
the NVA patrols came close by. The observer was picked up three hours
after the .38 noise was heard.
Chris Manteuffel
Larry Bump
smg...@ix.netcom.com (Steve GREGG) wrote:
>Nope. He kept his ass low in the grass throughout the whole episode.
>So did the F-16 pilot in Bosnia. Notice that both of them survived.
>By contrast, Frank Luke decided to shoot it out with the Huns after he
>crashed behind the lines in WWI. He's dead.
Of course he's dead. How old would he be by now? ;)
But seriously, in the book I read (long ago), it told that he shot it
out because he had no realistic expectation of being taken alive, ie
there was a stated intention to kill him immediately.
Is this correct?
Larry B.
funkraum
>thu...@rmii.com (Ed Rasimus) wrote:
[...]
>During my first (F-105) tour, I carried a Beretta Cougar .380 auto in
>addition to the issued S&W Combat Masteriece. I also had one beeper,
>three radios, flares, a survival knife, a cut-down machete,
>pen-flares, 200 ft let-down rope, mirror, water, whistle, signal
>panels, morphine, atropine, and a Snickers.
>
Between what should be the first and the last word on this
subject, I might respectfully submit that students of this subject
consider:
a) Number of instances where downed pilots were successfully
recovered due entirely to their use of their sidearm against enemy
combatants / hostile non-combatants.
b) Number of instances where downed pilots were not recovered due
to their sidearm having insufficient lethality.
c) Number of instances where downed pilots actually used their
sidearm against enemy combatants / hostile non-combatants at all.
and weigh against:
i) Number of injuries caused by ND/AD
ii) Number of ready rooms trashed / aircrew massacred / carriers
sunk by the ND/AD of a full magasine from an MAC-10
iii) Risk of any extra objects in the cockpit, nailed down,
attatched or otherwise stowed, causing a malfunction in the
cockpit or an interruption to ejection. Everyone remembers the
story of the RIO being savagly attacked by a rampant inflatable
liferaft, and that piece of equipment was meant to be there, right
? (Admittedly, if the RIO had been packing a S&W 29 then he would
have been able to drop the liferaft with the first round, but I
digress ...)
iv) 'Legal' aspects and enemy propaganda issues related to the
carrying of other than ball ammo upon being captured.
v) The alternative use of the large quantity of time needed to
train to use a handgun with lethal force effectivly, in training
which would reduce the chances of being shot-down in the first
place.
I would estimate:
a) nearly none
b) none
c) A low proportion of instances
i) some
ii) too awful to contemplate
iii) significant risk
iv) significant risk
v) significant
>Second tour (F-4E) I was five years older, more mature, and firmly
>convinced that if I were on the ground, the only thing I would be able
>to do with my weapons is hurt myself. I carried only the S&W and it
>was loaded with tracer--purely as a signaling device.
[...]
Steve GREGG
Never read that anywhere. It doesn't ring true either. How would
ground troops know the identity of an Allied pilot who crashed in their
area until they captured him or searched his corpse? I don't know of
any Allied pilot who was executed after capture by the Germans during
WWI. I don't think the troops had that kind of hatred for pilots back
then because aircraft weren't that effective in WWI. Their greatest
value was in reconnaissance.
Steve
funkraum
>swar...@pilot.msu.edu (Stephen Swartz) wrote:
[...]
>Anyhow, I was under the impression that the HPBT "Match" bullets commonly
>used by military snipers (150-190 grain class .308 rounds) referred to
>above behave more like FMJ bullets than HP rounds in terms of terminal
>ballistic performance.
>It is my contention that while the hollow nose of the HPBT bullet may
>deform upon impact, any "shredding" or "shedding" of the jacket would
>be minor and not a factor in either stopping power or tissue damage.
>
Am I right in thinking that these rounds are similar to some
long-range artillery rounds in that they are fitted with a hollow
or low-density cone which is designed to reduce drag ?
If so, then the JHP bullet would differ from these in that the
actual 'body' has a hollow point and jacket which is designed to
make the bullet mushroom, unlike the above.
Robert Fritz
funkraum wrote:
>
> >swar...@pilot.msu.edu (Stephen Swartz) wrote:
>
> [...]
> >Anyhow, I was under the impression that the HPBT "Match" bullets commonly
> >used by military snipers (150-190 grain class .308 rounds) referred to
> >above behave more like FMJ bullets than HP rounds in terms of terminal
> >ballistic performance.
>
> >It is my contention that while the hollow nose of the HPBT bullet may
> >deform upon impact, any "shredding" or "shedding" of the jacket would
> >be minor and not a factor in either stopping power or tissue damage.
> >
>
> Am I right in thinking that these rounds are similar to some
> long-range artillery rounds in that they are fitted with a hollow
> or low-density cone which is designed to reduce drag ?
There are sabot rounds that use a collar around a smaller (than
bore diameter) projectile. The small projectile fired with a large
charge results in a very high velocity, useful in pentrating hard
targets. The collar falls away from the projectile when leaves the
barrel.
I suppose you could make an argument that a shaped charge round is
like a hollowpoint, but that's a stretch.
BCDubya
During Operation Uphold Democracy (Haiti) in 1994, We carried the Beretta
9mm. I was a right seater in the US ARMY OV-1D Mohawk. We flew daily
photo missions in support of 10th Mountian Division from Gitmo Bay, Cuba.
BCDubya
Mary Shafer
To return to the subject line, rather than the discussion of bullets,
the RAF Tornado crews can carry handguns into combat.
The pilot and flying officer of one of the Tornados shot down by AA in
Desert Storm both had handguns. Neither of them shot at their
captors, but, judging by how they describe their capture, they might
have had there been fewer captors and the site more remote.
Having read only their account, I won't claim that all Tornado crews
carry handguns into combat, but at least one did.
Barry Williams
My father is a retired police officer, and during a firearms ammnesrt was
handed in a large calibre revolver that had been converted to fire .410
shotgun cartridges. How does this relate to the thread?
The owner of the revolver had used it in the Korean war where he flew
Meteors with the RAAF. Apparently a freindly armourer used to do these
conversions on a one on one basis. They were called 'snake guns' and were
used to kill snakes, rats etc.
The pilot explained that his best defence against being captured was his
survival radio. He felt that his level of firearms training gave him
little chance against trained, combat hardened infantry, but that snakes
were a problem he could deal with.
Regards,
Barry