B-52 Tail Gunners
Shimmshimm
crews becoming POW's, but all the experience's I've heard are from officers.
Obvisouly there were more officers than enlisted on B-52's, but I've heard of
no tales. So, do I take it that the tails are "hard" to get out of, or the
gunners may have bailed, only to be killed on the ground?
Also, I'd like to find out any information on " crew" bailouts in peace time
or war on type aircraft as the P-3, C-130, A-3, etc, etc.
Thanks,Jim
Ragnar (no, not THE Ragnar)
the other crew. The gun was remote controlled.
Ragnar
Mike Tighe
<rwo...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>As I recall, the B-52 tail gunner didn't sit in the tail. He sat "up front" with
>the other crew. The gun was remote controlled.
I am probably not going to be the only one pointing this out, but up
to the 'D' model at least, the gunner's position was in the tail...
The G and H had the remote control - not sure about the (relatively
rare?) F without looking it up...
Mike Tighe
Speaking from the bottom left
hand corner of the big picture.
David Lentz
>I am probably not going to be the only one pointing this out, but up
>to the 'D' model at least, the gunner's position was in the tail...
>
>The G and H had the remote control - not sure about the (relatively
>rare?) F without looking it up...
The D model had quad fifties with a gunner in the rear. The H model had a
remote controled twenty MM with the uunner up front. I forget which of the
arrangements the G model had.
Back to the D. The better did better job carrying iron bombs. It could
carry a heavier bomb load than the tatter models. So I would suspect that
it was the D model that were used as much as possible. F model? Must have
been one, but I never heard of it.
David
Michael Williamson
> On Sun, 29 Nov 1998 11:22:21 -0500, "Ragnar (no, not THE Ragnar)"
> <rwo...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >As I recall, the B-52 tail gunner didn't sit in the tail. He sat "up front" with
> >the other crew. The gun was remote controlled.
>
> I am probably not going to be the only one pointing this out, but up
> to the 'D' model at least, the gunner's position was in the tail...
>
> The G and H had the remote control - not sure about the (relatively
> rare?) F without looking it up...
>
> Mike Tighe
> Speaking from the bottom left
> hand corner of the big picture.
All of the 'Tall Tail' models had the gunner in the tail, up through the F model
(last of the tall tails). The G and H moved the position into the same area as the
rest of the crew.
The G model had the quad .50's that the earlier models had, while the H went to the
vulcan.
Mike Williamson
Old Cougar
Question how mammy B-52 s ware lost to combat?
Michael Williamson wrote in message <36619977...@azstarnet.com>...
Ed Rasimus
> I've heard many stories of B-52's getting shot down over Vietnam, and there
>crews becoming POW's, but all the experience's I've heard are from officers.
>Obvisouly there were more officers than enlisted on B-52's, but I've heard of
>no tales. So, do I take it that the tails are "hard" to get out of, or the
>gunners may have bailed, only to be killed on the ground?
The issue you are overlooking is not survivability of tail gunners,
but the combat experience of the B-52 in SEA. The B-52 was not
employed against the heavily defended areas of North Vietnam until the
"twelve days of Christmas" in 1972--Linebacker II.
That means that there were no combat losses of BUFFs due to enemy
action until the night of 18 December '72. Then, during the campaign
there were roughly 15 aircraft lost (numbers vary depending upon where
the aircraft was abandoned/crashed, but 15 is a reasonable total).
Out of those losses there were a number of crewmembers who became
POWs. I was able to find 32 B-52 crewmen on the roster of released
POWs from Operation Homecoming which I've got, but the list doesn't
offer rank, so I've no way to identify gunners. The aircraft types are
listed as D or G models.
Ed Rasimus *** Peak Computing Magazine
Fighter Pilot (ret) *** (http://peak-computing.com)
*** Ziff-Davis Interactive
*** (http://www.zdnet.com)
Old Cougar
out of sight you would hold your breath till they came back up at least one
that I know off did not and in Dec 72 we ware launching 99 sorties per 24
hours that was a lot of Buffs and one KC-135 for ea...
JGASTRO29 wrote in message <19981129195716...@ng-fu1.aol.com>...
>One story for Buff buff's, departing out of Guam was an experience not to
be
>missed, as the runway has a major dip in it, resulting in a takeoff roll
that
>lets the aircraft accelerate past 'go-no-go' speed as it goes downhill then
>slowing back under that speed on the upgrade until passing that speed
again.
>
JGASTRO29
missed, as the runway has a major dip in it, resulting in a takeoff roll that
lets the aircraft accelerate past 'go-no-go' speed as it goes downhill then
slowing back under that speed on the upgrade until passing that speed again.
A technique for heavyweight takeoffs was to use ground effect and momentum to
'lift-off' over the end of runway lighting, allow the plane to settle as you
passed over the cliff, and accelerate to climbout speed. For D model gunners,
story is that there was a grease pencil line on their canopy, to signal that
things were not going well, if the edge of the cliff rose above the line,
eject. Not sure if they ever did or not.
I've been to Guam twice, once in an "A" model KC-135 tanker, then in an "R"; it
was hard to imagine the takeoffs those heavily loaded buffs did on a regular
basis. They deserve serious recognition for even attempting it once, never
mind over and over again.
Griff
Slwyatt
turrent ejected. I work on them.
BRGarity
>with
>the other crew. The gun was remote controlled.
>
>
The D model had the defensive systems gunner sitting out back in the tail. I
worked with the gunners for G's and H's who sat in the hole with the EWO and
played with the trackball to find his target since the MK 1 eyeball was deemed
not good enough.
Rick Simon
>The D model had the defensive systems gunner sitting out back in the tail. I
>worked with the gunners for G's and H's who sat in the hole with the EWO and
>played with the trackball to find his target since the MK 1 eyeball was deemed
>not good enough.
B thru F models had the gunner sitting in the tail. Only the H model had a
trackball. All of the others used a set of control handles for inputs.
The Mk 1 eyeball was relegated to a last ditch tracking effort in all models
up to the G. It was only used if both DFCS radars were down. B thru F models
used an optical hemsight while the G used a CCTV. No provision was ever made
for optical tracking in the H model.
Rick Simon
rsi...@cris.com
Jeff Rankin-Lowe
tail gunner was unexpectedly ejected. It said the font-end crew thought it was
just a case of an intercom failure, so they carried out the rest of the planned
mission. Meanwhile, the gunner walked for a few hours until he came to a farm
house (no, this is not a farmer's daughter joke) and phoned back to the base.
IIRC, the B-52 was landing about the same time as the phone call got through.
As so often happens with such stories, the end is rarely published. That's
especially true here in Canada when the event took place elsewhere. I've always
wondered about the details of the story, (Maybe I could get Paul Harvey to do a
"That's the Rest of the Story" about it) so if anyone knows more, I'd be
interested to hear about it.
Jeff Rankin-Lowe
Rick Simon
>I remember many (20 or so?) years ago, a news item about a B-52 in which the
>tail gunner was unexpectedly ejected. It said the font-end crew thought it was
>just a case of an intercom failure, so they carried out the rest of the planned
>mission. Meanwhile, the gunner walked for a few hours until he came to a farm
>house (no, this is not a farmer's daughter joke) and phoned back to the base.
>IIRC, the B-52 was landing about the same time as the phone call got through.
It sounds like you may have a couple of incidents confused here. The B-F
model B-52's had gunners in the rear, but they had no ejection seat. When they
pulled the ejection handle the entire tail cone (roughly the last 6 feet of
the fuselage) of the aircraft seperated and fell away. They then simply
stepped out the wide open back end into air. No ejection mechanism of any kind
on the seat. I do seem to recall hearing of an incident back in the 60's (C
or E model?) where a gunner bailed during a serious IFE which the pilot
managed to recover from. The crew then continued on to recover the aircraft
without realizing the gunner had "stepped out for a stroll".
Roughly 20 years ago a G model gunner did eject unexpectedly, but everyone
else on board knew about it when he went since G model gunners were up front
with the rest of the crew and did use ejection seats. IIRC it was a
Blytheville (Eaker) aircraft which was over Tennessee at the time. The gunner
had dozed off and came awake in a disoriented state. He thought he saw the
bail out warning light and grabbed the handles, rotated and squeezed. They
found him hobbling along a country road and found his seat embedded in a
farmers field. As I recall, he was removed from crew status and never flew
again. There were other persistent rumors about what "really" happened, but
I'll not go into those.
Rick Simon
rsi...@cris.com
Dweezil Dwarftosser
<sir...@on.aibn.com> wrote:
>I remember many (20 or so?) years ago, a news item about a B-52 in which the
>tail gunner was unexpectedly ejected. It said the font-end crew thought it was
>just a case of an intercom failure, so they carried out the rest of the planned
>mission. Meanwhile, the gunner walked for a few hours until he came to a farm
>house (no, this is not a farmer's daughter joke) and phoned back to the base.
>IIRC, the B-52 was landing about the same time as the phone call got through.
>
>As so often happens with such stories, the end is rarely published. That's
>especially true here in Canada when the event took place elsewhere. I've always
>wondered about the details of the story, (Maybe I could get Paul Harvey to do a
>"That's the Rest of the Story" about it) so if anyone knows more, I'd be
>interested to hear about it.
Not the B-52 story, but one of an F-4E WSO. No names; I know the
guy... but it occurred at Hahn AB, Germany, about the 1977/78 time
frame.
The WSO had privately expressed ( to friends ) his dislike of flying
with a particular pilot, who *always* took too many chances - and he
didn't know what to do about it.
This pilot solved it for him, though. Flying heavy with a load of
training Mavericks, they were "jumped" by a clean RAF Phantom.
Punching off the training munitions was out of the question - this was
just "play" after all - yet the pilot tried extreme manuevers in order
to turn the tables on the "attacker"...and lost it. Shortly before
striking the ground, the WSO successfully ejected.
Shaken, he landed in a German beet field - and looked around; all he
saw was a gasthouse he recognized on the top of a rise. He stashed
his gear, walked up to the inn, and immediately telephoned his wife:
"That's it honey - I just ejected, I'm fine, and I'll never again put
my life in the hands of a jerk." She drove to the gasthouse ( where
he waited, with drink in hand, calming his nerves ) and took him HOME.
Meanwhile, the troops were beating the bushes, trying to find him.
When he finally showed up in the squadron, there were many choice
words on both sides - but he was true to his word: he never flew
another military sortie.
- John T.
Alan Minyard
> I've heard many stories of B-52's getting shot down over Vietnam, and there
>crews becoming POW's, but all the experience's I've heard are from officers.
>Obvisouly there were more officers than enlisted on B-52's, but I've heard of
>no tales. So, do I take it that the tails are "hard" to get out of, or the
>gunners may have bailed, only to be killed on the ground?
> Also, I'd like to find out any information on " crew" bailouts in peace time
>or war on type aircraft as the P-3, C-130, A-3, etc, etc.
>
> Thanks,Jim
Sir
Face it, no one in the U.S. Military cared about the Enlisted Men. We
were (and still are) cannon fodder for the fly-fly boys and their
buddies at the "O" club.
Sincerely
Al Minyard
Non teneas aurum totum quod splendet ut aurum.
Glenn Dowdy
>
> Face it, no one in the U.S. Military cared about the Enlisted Men. We
> were (and still are) cannon fodder for the fly-fly boys and their
> buddies at the "O" club.
>
<sarcasm mode>
Too true. Many's the time I'd be out running a qualification range, and
send one of the EMs downrange to hold out apples for me and the other
officers to shoot out of their hands. And sometimes my iggernant driver
would actually park more than eight EM body lengths from the door of
office, and I'd have to get a second squad to lay down in the mud to
keep my boots from getting dirty.
Other than that, I don't remember too much need for those guys. And they
always wanted pay and food, too.
</sarcasm mode>
It sounds like you were Air Force enlisted, and none too happy with your
military experience. Well, it was my experience that you AF EMs had it
pretty good, especially compared to grunts spending months living in the
field, sailors sleeping in crowded ship berths/hotbunking in teeny-tiny
attack subs and soldiers living in open bay barracks dating back to
WWII.
Glenn Dowdy
Darrell Schmidt
>
> Face it, no one in the U.S. Military cared about the Enlisted Men. We
> were (and still are) cannon fodder for the fly-fly boys and their
> buddies at the "O" club.
>
18 and later went through Aviation Cadets and so I've seen both sides.
Some commanders (Air Police, Etc) didn't always seem to have the EM's
best interest at heart but they were the exception rather than the
rule.
Since most "fly boys" were not Squadron commanders they didn't deal
directly with the EM that much and seemed to respect the EMs quite a
bit. Especially the technicians on whom they depended for their very
lives.
And as for "cannon fodder" talk, in the Air Force it is mostly the
officer/pilots who go off to combat to possibly become fodder. Most AF
EM stay at the fixed base and are relatively safe.
Were you perhaps in the Army?
--
Home Page: "B-58 HUSTLER" http://members.home.net/dschmidt1/
Tarver Engineering
Ed Rasimus wrote in message <3665d8d9...@news.rmi.net>...
>amin...@netdoor.com (Alan Minyard) wrote:
>
>>Face it, no one in the U.S. Military cared about the Enlisted Men. We
>>were (and still are) cannon fodder for the fly-fly boys and their
>>buddies at the "O" club.
<snip>
>You also might talk to some aviators and learn how much they all
>appreciate the efforts of the guys that are out there on the flight
>line and in the shops making the airplanes combat ready. It IS a team,
>in case you hadn't noticed.
Think about who you are talking to here Mr. Rasimus; have you no shame?
John
Ed Rasimus
>Face it, no one in the U.S. Military cared about the Enlisted Men. We
>were (and still are) cannon fodder for the fly-fly boys and their
>buddies at the "O" club.
>
You might want to take a quick check of the Operation Homecoming
roster to see how many enlisted and how many officers were released
from North Vietnam.
The USAF and USN tend to keep the pointy end of the spear occupied by
"fly-fly boys" and unfortunately that entails a lot of fighting and
dying and occasional imprisonment.
You also might talk to some aviators and learn how much they all
appreciate the efforts of the guys that are out there on the flight
line and in the shops making the airplanes combat ready. It IS a team,
in case you hadn't noticed.
Gord Beaman
--cut--
>Sir
>
>Face it, no one in the U.S. Military cared about the Enlisted Men. We
>were (and still are) cannon fodder for the fly-fly boys and their
>buddies at the "O" club.
>
>
>Al Minyard
>
Al Al Al...I'm an enlisted type and not even in your country's forces
but I certainly know that what you say is not true...all you need to
do is see just one of those American prisoner's bruised and cut faces
on the news spouting a forced speech about the 'warlike people of the
USA' waging an 'unjust war' on the 'good people of Iraq' to know that
they had the 'shitty end of the stick' while the EMs were
'comparatively' comfortable back at base. That one film clip will stay
with me for life...poor bugger...
--
Gord Beaman
PEI, Canada
Dweezil Dwarftosser
wrote:
>Alan Minyard wrote:
>>
>> Face it, no one in the U.S. Military cared about the Enlisted Men. We
>> were (and still are) cannon fodder for the fly-fly boys and their
>> buddies at the "O" club.
>>
>It sounds like you were Air Force enlisted, and none too happy with your
>military experience. Well, it was my experience that you AF EMs had it
>pretty good, especially compared to grunts spending months living in the
>field, sailors sleeping in crowded ship berths/hotbunking in teeny-tiny
>attack subs and soldiers living in open bay barracks dating back to
>WWII.
Hmmm. Well, it was true that the maids would change the sheets no
more than twice a week, and you had to cover liquid spills on the
chow hall tablecloths with money - but none of it compares to those
times when the air-conditioning went out.
Of course, without those enlisted swine, they'd be *trucking* those
bombs to the enemy, instead of flying. Fair trade, I guess....
:)
- John T, former MSgt, USAF.
ArtKramr
>From: wc...@usa.net (Dweezil Dwarftosser)
>Date: 12/3/98 6:13 AM PST
>On Wed, 02 Dec 1998 14:10:58 -0800, Glenn Dowdy <glenn...@hp.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Alan Minyard wrote:
>>>
>>> Face it, no one in the U.S. Military cared about the Enlisted Men. We
>>> were (and still are) cannon fodder for the fly-fly boys and their
>>> buddies at the "O" club.
>>>
>>It sounds like you were Air Force enlisted, and none too happy with your
>>military experience. Well, it was my experience that you AF EMs had it
>>pretty good, especially compared to grunts spending months living in the
>>field, sailors sleeping in cro
Our gunners were enlisted men, and we cared about them very much and saw to
it that they got every consideration and respect. We are still in touch to
this day, and value our friendships highly..
Arthur Kramer
344th Bomb Group,9th Air Force
England France Belgium Holland Germany
David E. Oakley
Ed Rasimus wrote:
> amin...@netdoor.com (Alan Minyard) wrote:
>
> >Face it, no one in the U.S. Military cared about the Enlisted Men. We
> >were (and still are) cannon fodder for the fly-fly boys and their
> >buddies at the "O" club.
> >
> You might want to take a quick check of the Operation Homecoming
> roster to see how many enlisted and how many officers were released
> from North Vietnam.
>
> The USAF and USN tend to keep the pointy end of the spear occupied by
> "fly-fly boys" and unfortunately that entails a lot of fighting and
> dying and occasional imprisonment.
>
> You also might talk to some aviators and learn how much they all
> appreciate the efforts of the guys that are out there on the flight
> line and in the shops making the airplanes combat ready. It IS a team,
> in case you hadn't noticed.
>
> Ed Rasimus *** Peak Computing Magazine
> Fighter Pilot (ret) *** (http://peak-computing.com)
> *** Ziff-Davis Interactive
> *** (http://www.zdnet.com)
Ed
During the time that I was in the Air Force, the only problems that I had
with officers were with ones that didn't know where the flight line was. I
always felt like they weren't part of the Air Force.
David
John Andrew Prime
>
>I remember many (20 or so?) years ago, a news item about a B-52 in which
the
>tail gunner was unexpectedly ejected. It said the font-end crew thought
it was
>just a case of an intercom failure, so they carried out the rest of the
planned
>mission. Meanwhile, the gunner walked for a few hours until he came to a
farm
>house
Jeff, etc.:
Yeah, that flight happened over Arkansas, and the gunner was found by a
county mountie. I know for a fact because the paper I work at (and where I
was until recently the military reporter) carried the article front-page
and did publish follow-ups. We have it in our clip morgue. I'll look it up
and post the gist here. I recall the guy fell asleep, and when he woke up
his intercom HAD failed, and he thought the rest of th crew had bailed or
something like that (remember that in the '50s the BUFFs did have some
mechanical problems that at one time even imperiled th fate of the flet)
... and so he dropped the gun and jumped out. (It was a tail-dropper.)
He's just lucky the tail gun didn't KO someone underneath! As I rcall, h
wasdisciplined.
Pardon th occasional dropped "e" ... my keyboard is slowly dying...
John Andrwe Prime
Shreveport, La.
David Lednicer
>
> As I recall, the B-52 tail gunner didn't sit in the tail. He sat "up front" with
> the other crew. The gun was remote controlled.
Only on the B-52G and H. On earlier models, the gunner sat back in the
tail.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
David Lednicer | "Applied Computational Fluid Dynamics"
Analytical Methods, Inc. | email: da...@amiwest.com
2133 152nd Ave NE | tel: (206) 643-9090
Redmond, WA 98052 USA | fax: (206) 746-1299
Mary Shafer
> Shortly before
> striking the ground, the WSO successfully ejected.
>
> Shaken, he landed in a German beet field - and looked around; all he
> saw was a gasthouse he recognized on the top of a rise. He stashed
> his gear, walked up to the inn, and immediately telephoned his wife:
> "That's it honey - I just ejected, I'm fine, and I'll never again put
> my life in the hands of a jerk." She drove to the gasthouse ( where
> he waited, with drink in hand, calming his nerves ) and took him HOME.
>
> Meanwhile, the troops were beating the bushes, trying to find him.
One of our pilots had to eject from an F-104A in 1962. He landed,
gathered up his chute, walked to the nearest road, and calmly put out
his thumb to hitchhike with the first vehicle to come down the road.
The driver, a rancher, stopped, picked him up, and drove him all the
way back to FRC, even though it was a little out of his way.
> When he finally showed up in the squadron, there were many choice
> words on both sides - but he was true to his word: he never flew
> another military sortie.
I think the USAF SAR helicopter was out looking for our pilot, but the
desert isn't a very good place to find a phone so the reaction was not
at all extreme when he just showed up. Besides, he'd come right back
here, not gone home, and probably wouldn't have gotten back much
sooner if he'd waited for the helicopter.
However, when they had a Titan missile explode after being dropped up
at Phillips Lab, they first thought that two people had been killed.
One had been seen in the immediate area and another had not been seen
afterwards, so they assumed that both had been killed. It turned out,
the next day or so, that the second fellow, the one no one had been
able to find, had been so upset by the accident that he'd gotten in
his car and driven home without a word to anyone. Supposedly, he was
surprised to find out he was a casualty because he was sure that
someone would have noticed that his car was gone because he'd
abandoned a carpool. Again, relief at his reappearance was great
enough to stave off most of the "You should have told someone"
lecturing, but I noticed that not long after that, we got a memo
suggesting that we let a co-worker know where we were going if we left
the facility during duty hours. Cause and effect? I don't really
know. We were doing a lot of emergency preparedness stuff about then
anyway, so it may have been coincidence.
--
Mary Shafer NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, CA
SR-71 Flying Qualities Lead Engineer Of course I don't speak for NASA
sha...@reseng.dfrc.nasa.gov DoD #362 KotFR
URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html
For personal messages, please use sha...@ursa-major.spdcc.com
BlackBeard
>amin...@netdoor.com (Alan Minyard) wrote:
>--cut--
>>Sir
>>
>>Face it, no one in the U.S. Military cared about the Enlisted Men. We
>>were (and still are) cannon fodder for the fly-fly boys and their
>>buddies at the "O" club.
>>
>>Sincerely
>>
>>Al Minyard
>>
>Al Al Al...I'm an enlisted type and not even in your country's forces
>but I certainly know that what you say is not true...all you need to
I served with some great Officers and some shitty ones. I also served
with some great Chiefs and some shitty ones. Some of us regular enlisted
guys were pretty shit hot, some were just shit. When we went to sea, we
knew we needed to be able to depend on every last one of us regardless of
rank, commision or pedigree. OR someone, or all of us would die. We
worked together, partied on shore together, and bitched together.
I've seen some pretty good Naval Aviators pass through this place. Some
really cared about their men and made the effort to show it. THey were
the majority. Woody, Forger, Boomer and Gattuso (Salami) stick out in my
mind. One of the best I saw was Jeff Crutchfield (RIP). Several times
we'd have late flights during the OFP scrambles trying to get MSI to
breathe. We'd usually pitch in, or better yet talk the MacAir weenies
into springing for the pizzas for our after hours debriefs. Crutch, on
several occasions, would bring some young sailor in with him. Share a
pizza, a can of soda and watch the entire set of tapes from the flight.
You'd hear him in the back "see, this is what we're doing on this
project. Your *insert his system* is being used like this and we are
looking for this or whatever". Making the guy feel like he was part of
the team. He could of been an ordie whose HARM we were testing, or a
radar weenie or the new PC on their first tour. But they were included.
That's how a team gets thing done.
BlackBeard
Submarines once, Submarines twice...
""Bless those who serve beneath the deep, Through lonely hours their vigil keep, May peace their mission ever be, Protect each one we ask of thee.
Bless those at home who wait and pray, For their return by night or day."
-Rev. Gale Williamson
David Lentz
>Ragnar (no, not THE Ragnar) wrote:
>>
>> As I recall, the B-52 tail gunner didn't sit in the tail. He sat "up
front" with
>> the other crew. The gun was remote controlled.
>
> Only on the B-52G and H. On earlier models, the gunner sat back in the
>tail.
Almost right! The BUFF a.k.a. Stratofortress, a.k.a B-52 does not sit
anywhere, at least on the airplane. A few years back they took out the tail
guns. Such is life.
David
BlackBeard
<sha...@reseng2.dfrc.nasa.gov> wrote:
>
>However, when they had a Titan missile explode after being dropped up
>at Phillips Lab, they first thought that two people had been killed.
Our recent loss of one of our SAR helo's had a similar incident. One of
the crew, I think it was the SAR Corpsman, was sick. Called the aircrew
and they replaced him with one of the others. But he DIDN'T call his home
command, the clinic, and tell them. So when they heard the helo had gone
down, they looked at the duty roster and thought the worst. Caused a bit
of confusion for both sides as then there was someone on who wasn't
expected to be. Two actually because one other guy had to miss that
flight and so in his place they let the recent Sailor of the Quarter get
an attaboy ride.
Al Bowers
David Lednicer <da...@amiwest.com> writes:
> Ragnar (no, not THE Ragnar) wrote:
>> As I recall, the B-52 tail gunner didn't sit in the tail. He sat
>> "up front" with the other crew. The gun was remote controlled.
> Only on the B-52G and H. On earlier models, the gunner sat back in the
> tail.
Two gunners in the back that should be long remembered are (both B-52Ds):
SSgt Samuel O Turner, 307 SW (18 Dec 72: MiG-21)
-and-
A1C Albert E Moore, 307 SW (24 Dec 72: MiG-21)
Al Bowers
Ed Rasimus
>During the time that I was in the Air Force, the only problems that I had
>with officers were with ones that didn't know where the flight line was. I
>always felt like they weren't part of the Air Force.
Ya know, I've had the very same problem with the very same group.
But, there are always two sides to every story. I never realized the
animosity that existed between rated and non-rated officers until I
went to SOS (Sqdn Officer School) and we got "down and dirty" in some
of the "leveling sessions."
Call it what you will: animosity, enmity, envy or whatever. It doesn't
help in mission accomplishment and there has to be awareness to keep
it from growing.
Steve Swartz
Ed:
With all due respect, it's way past "too late" to "keep it from growing."
Years and years of being a second class citizen in everything from pay
to promotions to awards to assignments to schools to etc. etc. etc.
WHILE
showing up first (when the crew chiefs arrive) and going home last (when
the
grave shift settles in) tends to build a mite bit of that "animosity"
(great euphemism)
that all the "awareness" in the world won't help.
Mebbe it was different when you were in; mebbe not. But 10 years (since
at least
1988) of support officers "doing more with less" while rated guys got
"excuse me sir
would you like another $1,000 per month?" have taken it's toll.
Disgruntled? Hell, you can't even see gruntled from here.
The "Dear Boss" letter from the rated guys was a whiny joke compared to
what the
support guys have had to put up with.
Steve
Ed Rasimus <thu...@rmii.com> wrote in article
<3667116a...@news.rmi.net>...
BUFDRVR
>animosity that existed between rated and non-rated officers until I
>went to SOS (Sqdn Officer School)
I've had the very fortunate experience of being non-rated then rated, and
unfortunately the animosity goes both ways.
As a missileer at Minot I overheard quite a few "conehead" laughs and snickers
during my 3 years. The funny part is I could never figure out why the aircrews
felt a need to belittle us "blue bag" guys.
As a pilot I wear my missile badge PROUDLY along with my wings. By now all the
"conehead" remarks are long past or at least now more good natured, but when I
first arrived here after pilot training I was once again amazed at the spears
thrown my way for doing what I consider an important, yet unglamorous job. I
was even told by a Nav my first Friday at the club, "lose that stupid missile
badge !".
Somehow Ed, I don't think a missileer ever treated a nav or any aircrew the way
alot treat them. Just my opinon though....
BUFDRVR
"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"
SteveM8597
>first arrived here after pilot training I was once again amazed at the spears
>thrown my way for doing what I consider an important, yet unglamorous job. I
>was even told by a Nav my first Friday at the club, "lose that stupid missile
>badge !".
>
>Somehow Ed, I don't think a missileer ever treated a nav or any aircrew the
>way
>
Had the same experience going from two back to back SEA combat tours in F-4s,
getting medically grounded, then becoming (by choice) a maintenance officer. I
never worked harder in my life than when I pounded the ramp but was constantly
amazed at the abuse the maintenance pukes got from the fighter squadrons. It
started at the topwith the commanders all the way down the ranks. I found out
then just how molly coddled the fliers were and how little they understood how
the Air Force really worked. I got out shortly after that.
and
Ed Rasimus
>As a pilot I wear my missile badge PROUDLY along with my wings.
--minor snip-- I
>was even told by a Nav my first Friday at the club, "lose that stupid missile
>badge !".
>
>Somehow Ed, I don't think a missileer ever treated a nav or any aircrew the way
>alot treat them. Just my opinon though....
No disagreement here. All the parts are definitely required to make
the machine run, and it ill-behooves (I hate that word) the
transmission to berate the camshaft or spark-plugs.
But, as for missile badges, that recalls a cynical observation we made
at Nellis when I was there. We thought the idea of a missile badge
(which had only recently been introduced) was a great idea. We
proposed that we all be qualified for one, since we were carrying
sidewinders, sparrows, bull-pups, shrikes, etc. The difference would
be that aircrews would wear the badge horizontally under their wings.
Today, of course, every specialty seems to have a badge of some sort
for wearing on the pocket.
Alan Minyard
wrote:
>Alan Minyard wrote:
>>
>> Face it, no one in the U.S. Military cared about the Enlisted Men. We
>> were (and still are) cannon fodder for the fly-fly boys and their
>> buddies at the "O" club.
>>
>Are you a "Troll", Alan, or do you really feel that way? I enlisted at
>18 and later went through Aviation Cadets and so I've seen both sides.
>Some commanders (Air Police, Etc) didn't always seem to have the EM's
>best interest at heart but they were the exception rather than the
>rule.
>
>Since most "fly boys" were not Squadron commanders they didn't deal
>directly with the EM that much and seemed to respect the EMs quite a
>bit. Especially the technicians on whom they depended for their very
>lives.
>
>And as for "cannon fodder" talk, in the Air Force it is mostly the
>officer/pilots who go off to combat to possibly become fodder. Most AF
>EM stay at the fixed base and are relatively safe.
>
>Were you perhaps in the Army?
Nope, USN, for 23 years with 17 years sea duty. Perhaps the AF is more
civilized in their treatment of the "lower classes", but I would tend
to doubt it.
Al Minyard
MMCS(sw) Ret
Alan Minyard
>amin...@netdoor.com (Alan Minyard) wrote:
>
>>Face it, no one in the U.S. Military cared about the Enlisted Men. We
>>were (and still are) cannon fodder for the fly-fly boys and their
>>buddies at the "O" club.
>>
> You might want to take a quick check of the Operation Homecoming
>roster to see how many enlisted and how many officers were released
>from North Vietnam.
>
>The USAF and USN tend to keep the pointy end of the spear occupied by
>"fly-fly boys" and unfortunately that entails a lot of fighting and
>dying and occasional imprisonment.
>
>You also might talk to some aviators and learn how much they all
>appreciate the efforts of the guys that are out there on the flight
>line and in the shops making the airplanes combat ready. It IS a team,
>in case you hadn't noticed.
>
>
> Ed Rasimus *** Peak Computing Magazine
> Fighter Pilot (ret) *** (http://peak-computing.com)
> *** Ziff-Davis Interactive
> *** (http://www.zdnet.com)
True, most of the EM's came home in coffins, and didn't get an
"Operation Homecoming". In my experience (23 years USN) the fly-fly
boys were concerned that their bird was "up", no more.
Al Minyard
MMCS(SW) USN Ret
Alan Minyard
Beaman) wrote:
>amin...@netdoor.com (Alan Minyard) wrote:
>--cut--
>>Sir
>>
>>Face it, no one in the U.S. Military cared about the Enlisted Men. We
>>were (and still are) cannon fodder for the fly-fly boys and their
>>buddies at the "O" club.
>>
>>Sincerely
>>
>>Al Minyard
>>
>Al Al Al...I'm an enlisted type and not even in your country's forces
>but I certainly know that what you say is not true...all you need to
>do is see just one of those American prisoner's bruised and cut faces
>on the news spouting a forced speech about the 'warlike people of the
>USA' waging an 'unjust war' on the 'good people of Iraq' to know that
>they had the 'shitty end of the stick' while the EMs were
>'comparatively' comfortable back at base. That one film clip will stay
>with me for life...poor bugger...
That "poor bugger" was a traitor. Perhaps you've forgotten all of the
EM's living out in the desert getting shot at by the Iraqis AND the
fly-fly boys?
Al Minyard
wal...@oneimage.com
>On Thu, 03 Dec 1998 00:21:45 GMT, thu...@rmii.com (Ed Rasimus) wrote:>
>>amin...@netdoor.com (Alan Minyard) wrote:
>>
>>>Face it, no one in the U.S. Military cared about the Enlisted Men. We
>>>were (and still are) cannon fodder for the fly-fly boys and their
>>>buddies at the "O" club.
>>>
>>roster to see how many enlisted and how many officers were released
>>from North Vietnam.
>>
>>The USAF and USN tend to keep the pointy end of the spear occupied by
>>"fly-fly boys" and unfortunately that entails a lot of fighting and
>>dying and occasional imprisonment.
>>
>>You also might talk to some aviators and learn how much they all
>>appreciate the efforts of the guys that are out there on the flight
>>line and in the shops making the airplanes combat ready. It IS a team,
>>in case you hadn't noticed.
>>
>>
>> Ed Rasimus *** Peak Computing Magazine
>> Fighter Pilot (ret) *** (http://peak-computing.com)
>> *** Ziff-Davis Interactive
>> *** (http://www.zdnet.com)
>
>True, most of the EM's came home in coffins, and didn't get an
>"Operation Homecoming". In my experience (23 years USN) the fly-fly
>boys were concerned that their bird was "up", no more.
>>Al Minyard>MMCS(SW) USN Ret>
Not knowing the USN abbreviations for rates I'd guess you were in
munitions from the 'SW'. I know nothing about how maintenance is performed on a carrier.
But in the USAF the fighter crews, at least, are pretty close to the
flightline types. I know. I earned a Good Conduct Medal and two
stripes as an airborne radio mechanic before I got my brown bar and slick wings. And spent 22 of the next 26 years on the
flight line with the troops.
And as for the EM coming home in coffins - there's about 30 of my very
closest friends still over there, possibly still in their planes. And even
in peacetime we lost 5 good men out of 50 in 3 years at Homestead AFB along
with 7 F104s.
Anyway, the USAF, fighter branch, learned a long long time ago not a turbine
turns unless the EM make it so. 'Taking care of the troops' was a watchword
in the outfits I was part of - 25,326,332,319 FISes; 4,68,307,390,430,436 TFSes;
31,36,and 366 TFWs. I don't know if the USN has an 'IG'; the USAF does and it
generally works - I used it once myself, successfully, as an EM.
I'm sorry your supervisors and commanding officers were insenstitive jerks -
if that's where the problem was. But it couldn't have been too terrible for you
to spend 23 years doing it.
Walt BJ ftr plt ret
wal...@oneimage.com
>buf...@aol.com (BUFDRVR) wrote:>
>>As a pilot I wear my missile badge PROUDLY along with my wings.
>--minor snip-- I
>>was even told by a Nav my first Friday at the club, "lose that stupid missile
>>badge !".
>>
>>Somehow Ed, I don't think a missileer ever treated a nav or any aircrew the way
>>alot treat them. Just my opinon though....
>
>No disagreement here. All the parts are definitely required to make
>the machine run, and it ill-behooves (I hate that word) the
>transmission to berate the camshaft or spark-plugs.
>
>But, as for missile badges, that recalls a cynical observation we made
>at Nellis when I was there. We thought the idea of a missile badge
>(which had only recently been introduced) was a great idea. We
>proposed that we all be qualified for one, since we were carrying
>sidewinders, sparrows, bull-pups, shrikes, etc. The difference would
>be that aircrews would wear the badge horizontally under their wings.
>
>Today, of course, every specialty seems to have a badge of some sort
>for wearing on the pocket.
Good idea, Ed! With clusters for each missile/rocket fired? Wow! I'd need
a walker real early to hold myself up! Seriously (said he, getting ready
to brag) I am one of the few people to kill a Firebee with a radar Falcon -
the Hughes arrow. That ought to bne worth soemthing. Come to think of it, it
was - that was back when contractors could buy one a drink at the bar. Lots
of drinks . . . . Tyndall AFB, back in the 60s . . . . makes my head hurt just
to think about it! Junior, one of the waiters, could keep a thirty drink order
straight and bring a new round without a repeat! That was during the infamous
games of 7-11-21. That really makes me hurt now . . .
Walt BJ ftr plt.
Gord Beaman
>EM's living out in the desert getting shot at by the Iraqis AND the
>fly-fly boys?
>
>Al Minyard
>
charge?...
Ed Rasimus
>True, most of the EM's came home in coffins, and didn't get an
>"Operation Homecoming". In my experience (23 years USN) the fly-fly
>boys were concerned that their bird was "up", no more.
Yep. It really is difficult to go to a fight with a weapon that isn't
working. Doesn't seem that hard to understand the concern about
strapping your pink (or brown or tan) butt to 20,000 pounds of jet
fuel and one or two blow torches all controlled by bells, whistles,
pullies and hydraulics then have it thrown off the front of the boat
or rolling down the pavement at 200 Kts before lift-off with a load of
iron to deliver as an instrument of national policy.
Yeah, we might tend to get a bit snippy with the crew-chief when the
target is down-town and the reports are that there are already five
airplanes down this morning and just yesterday you saw one of the guys
in the squadron flamed by a SAM with four more in the air at the same
time.
And, in your 23 years USN (assuming it was post WW-II), how many of
your associate EM's came home in coffins. If your experience was
WW-II, then I apologize profusely, but if it was since then, you've
certainly misread the facts of military life.
Ed Rasimus
>amin...@netdoor.com (Alan Minyard) wrote:
>--cut--
>>That "poor bugger" was a traitor. Perhaps you've forgotten all of the
>>EM's living out in the desert getting shot at by the Iraqis AND the
>>fly-fly boys?
>>
>>
>How does a normal man with normal sensibilities answer this subhuman
>charge?...
Seems to me I didn't notice that the "war" was going on for nearly a
100 days, waged exclusively by the "fly-fly boys" before the 100 hours
that the EMs in the desert saw their first shot.
David Lentz
.>Yeah, we might tend to get a bit snippy with the crew-chief when the
>target is down-town and the reports are that there are already five
>airplanes down this morning and just yesterday you saw one of the guys
>in the squadron flamed by a SAM with four more in the air at the same
>time.
>
>And, in your 23 years USN (assuming it was post WW-II), how many of
>your associate EM's came home in coffins. If your experience was
>WW-II, then I apologize profusely, but if it was since then, you've
>certainly misread the facts of military life.
Testy, sobeit.
.More than any other service, the risk in the Air Force is concentrated in
small percentage of the force. In the Air Force the Fighting Men at risk
are aircrew members and more particularly combat crew members. While this
does not exclude enlisted men, for the most part the combat crew personnel
are rated officers. So when the Air Force fights, she tends to lose
proportoinally more officers
Different war, but let throw some numbers out. World War II, Eight AIr
Force (England), total personel - 350,000, killed - 26,000, rate - 7.42
percent. In comparison the Marines, with no easy lot, lost 3.29 percent.
Combat soldiers in the front line tend to develope an attitude towards the
rear echolon that could be characterized as "a bit snippy". In the Army
these forward Fighting Man tend to wear a few stripes or one bar. As the
son of a World War infantry private and retired airman, I can understand
such attitudes. In the Air Force things are a bit different. In the Air
Force the Fighting Men wear a couple or bars or heavier. From their
perspective, I can understand from where they are coming.
A little bit of Air Force history. No Air Force enlisted non-aircrew member
has ever won a Congressional Metal of Honor. In the Air Force most of the
risk is borne by those that fly.
Aside, why get testy with your crew chief. After all, he is lettting you
fly his airplane.
David
David Lentz
>Seems to me I didn't notice that the "war" was going on for nearly a
>100 days, waged exclusively by the "fly-fly boys" before the 100 hours
>that the EMs in the desert saw their first shot.
One of the constants of Air Force history is the airpower advocates and air
generals have always over stated the ability of airpower to win wars. These
advocate have spoken since before World War Two about airpower's ability to
win a war by itself. Sadly the technology have never been able to match
the rhetorical. Wars or still won when the ground is occupied.. Occupying
the ground is still the role of the Amy.
After the Persian Gulf War, the then Chief of Staff, General McPeak gave a
press conference where he declared that the Persain Gulf War was won by
airpower. Alas like the air generals that preceded him, McPeak was wrong.
For while airpower did more to win the Gulf War than any other war in
history. The war was one not when an Eagle flew over Kuwiat City but when
an Abrams drove into it. Leave the ground forces behind the berms and we
would still be attritting Sadam Hussien and he would still be in Kuwait.
David
Ogden Johnson III
: Seems to me I didn't notice that the "war" was going on for nearly a
: 100 days, waged exclusively by the "fly-fly boys" before the 100 hours
: that the EMs in the desert saw their first shot.
Not gainsaying your defenses against Minyard's canards, but be careful
about climbing out on rhetorical limbs lest they be sawn off. *Several*
EMs in the desert saw their first shot before the '100 hours' started.
And I am not talking about the specops types snooping and pooping in the
desert, nor the scud that hit the warehouse/billet. Granted it was much
*closer* than 100 days to the jump off of ground ops, but it *was* before.
OJ III
Ed Rasimus
>
>Aside, why get testy with your crew chief. After all, he is lettting you
>fly his airplane.
Why get testy with your wife when you are really mad at your boss?
You're right, of course. And, over about 4200 hours and several
hundred crewchiefs, I'd like to thank them all for the loan of their
equipment. I'm proud to say I always brought their bird back.
cheyenne
David Lentz wrote in message ...
>.More than any other service, the risk in the Air Force is
concentrated in
>small percentage of the force. In the Air Force the Fighting Men at
risk
>are aircrew members and more particularly combat crew members.
While this
>does not exclude enlisted men, for the most part the combat crew
personnel
>are rated officers. So when the Air Force fights, she tends to lose
>proportoinally more officers
>In the Air Force the Fighting Men wear a couple or bars or heavier.
As a retired Air Force gunner in Korea, the Cold War, and Vietnam, I
wore an armfull of stripes. I would like to think the rest of my crew
considered me a Fighting Man even though I flew in the back of the
bus.
Krztalizer
><sarcasm mode>
><snipped for brevity>
></sarcasm mode>
>
>It sounds like you were Air Force enlisted, and none too happy with your
>military experience. Well, it was my experience that you AF EMs had it
>pretty good, especially compared to grunts spending months living in the
>field, sailors sleeping in crowded ship berths/hotbunking in teeny-tiny
>attack subs and soldiers living in open bay barracks dating back to
>WWII.
>
>Glenn Dowdy
I tend to agree. While stationed on Diego Garcia, living in a Sprinterville
hootch that was 4 feet off the gravel and yet still flooded from the 5-month
monsoon, my Air Force O-3 sister called on the Bat Phone from Misawa to whine
at me about having to share a common kitchen in her apartment/quarters. Since
the nearest kitchen to my quarters was 4 miles away, I was having trouble being
empathetic. I consider the living arrangements for Air Force to be far and
away the most spacious and accommodating of all.
Navy shipboard life ranged from barbaric to comfortable depending on the food,
which truly makes everything else secondary. Ashore, Navy Barracks always
tended to be dens of sin, thankfully. Our reward after a few months at sea was
to come home to a barracks with a "condemned by order of the Commander" sign on
the door (Barracks 864 at NAS North Island, that was condemned and inhabited
at the same time for about a decade). To make up for it, there was an attached
bar that we knew was "crawling distance" to our rooms in the adjoining wing.
Other end of the list would be the "Home is where you dig it" school of
housing, which was my primary reason for choosing the Naval Service over Army
or Marines.
Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR Aircrew
It's always better to lose AN engine than THE engine.
Krztalizer
>Today, of course, every specialty seems to have a badge of some sort
>for wearing on the pocket.
>
>
After twenty years of lobbying efforts before the uniform board folks, Navy
Helicopter SAR Swimmers at last have their specialty badge, some 15 years after
the Maint Rates in the Navy were given their own "Enlisted Aviation Warfare
Specialist" - wings qualification / badge. Always seemed odd to me to see a
Supply Chief wearing a set of wings (essentially for memorizing ship classes,
history and regulations) , especially during a flying billet tour where I flew
for a year before I recieved my aircrew wings. I spent three weeks earning
the EAWS wings, but rarely wore them because for some reason, Uniform
Regulations proclaimed that the "Maint Wings" were of a higher presidence than
my hard-earned Navy Aircrew Wings.
Gordon
Krztalizer
> I served with some great Officers and some shitty ones. I also served
>with some great Chiefs and some shitty ones.
Absolutely, Blackbeard! The two finest men I have ever known were both Naval
Aviators. And the slimiest bastard I ever met was also one. Basically,
lumping folks together as the Senior Chief has done is a disservice to the damn
fine folks that made the odd choice of becoming officers :)
>Some of us regular enlisted
>guys were pretty shit hot, some were just shit. When we went to sea, we
>knew we needed to be able to depend on every last one of us regardless of
>rank, commision or pedigree. OR someone, or all of us would die. We
>worked together, partied on shore together, and bitched together.
> I've seen some pretty good Naval Aviators pass through this place. Some
>really cared about their men and made the effort to show it. THey were
>the majority. Woody, Forger, Boomer and Gattuso (Salami) stick out in my
>mind.
Forger? The F/A Teen Test Pilot at Dryden?
>>GREAT GUY<<
One of the best I saw was Jeff Crutchfield (RIP). Several times
>we'd have late flights during the OFP scrambles trying to get MSI to
>breathe. We'd usually pitch in, or better yet talk the MacAir weenies
>into springing for the pizzas for our after hours debriefs. Crutch, on
>several occasions, would bring some young sailor in with him. Share a
>pizza, a can of soda and watch the entire set of tapes from the flight.
>You'd hear him in the back "see, this is what we're doing on this
>project. Your *insert his system* is being used like this and we are
>looking for this or whatever". Making the guy feel like he was part of
>the team. He could of been an ordie whose HARM we were testing, or a
>radar weenie or the new PC on their first tour. But they were included.
> That's how a team gets thing done.
>
>BlackBeard
Thanks for sharing. Got me thinking about another Jeff, a friend that lost his
life in the Med aboard an F-14 (can't recall his callsign -- Rattler or
Sidewinder McKenna (?).
Your post sums it all up. The military is made up of thousands of individuals,
and one thing this newsgroup teaches you is that you can't judge one "type" of
person by another. All I can say is that Al must have had one really bad
string of officers to get such a universally bad opinion of them. With the
exception of Squadron Maintenance Officers, very few Officers that I met were
worthy of a kick. <grin> WORST Officer I met was a sea-going cromagnon that
caused 20 casualties with his first order as Commanding Officer. (He ordered
our Frigate to leave Tokyo Bay at 25 knots, into a huge storm with his line
handlers still on deck.) Does that mean that all ship drivers deserve the
brand of idiot? Of course not.
Al, I can't agree with you that officers didn't give a hoot for enlisteds. I
guess you never had a Division Officer like H Henry Brus III (pompous in name
only). LT Brus and Commander John Gana might alter your opinion -- they
cared for their troops out of a deep sense of humanity, and they never lost
touch with the "lower ranks". The indomitable Captain Swede Vejtasa is
another positive example, among many others. I wish you could have served with
such men.
Gordon
12 years active duty Navy
Bartolomeu de Gusmao
> gbe...@pei.sympatico.ca (Gord Beaman) wrote:
> >amin...@netdoor.com (Alan Minyard) wrote:
> >--cut--
> >>That "poor bugger" was a traitor. Perhaps you've forgotten all of the
> >>EM's living out in the desert getting shot at by the Iraqis AND the
> >>fly-fly boys?
> >>
> >How does a normal man with normal sensibilities answer this subhuman
> >charge?...
>
> 100 days, waged exclusively by the "fly-fly boys" before the 100 hours
> that the EMs in the desert saw their first shot.
>
>
Ed- We know you have an egomaniacal urge to see your name in print on a
daily basis BUT whatinhell does this have to do with B-52 tail gunners?
Last week you were chastising some clod about straying off-topic, as we
remember!
Ed MacNeil
cents worth because I had the opportunity to crew this magnificent aircraft as a
Gunner in "E" and "H" models.
The B through F models had a jettisonable turret. The gunners bailout procedure
was to blow the turret and make a manual bailout through the opening left by the
turret. While this procedure sounds simple enough, I expect it would have been
quite difficult in an aircraft that was out of control and in the process of
breaking up. The alternate bailout procedure would have been even more
difficult.
I recall one amusing tale of a gunner's egress from an BUF at Castle AFB that had
gone off the end of the runway in a high speed abort. The aircraft broke up and
began to burn rather brightly. This Gunner was left in the tail about 30 feet
in the air. The designers had thought of this situation and provided an escape
rope for the occasion. In his haste to egress the burning aircraft, he
jettisoned the turret, grabbed the end of the rope and bailed out smartly
breaking both legs. He survived the experience and this novel bailout technique
cost him a lot of beer!
The "G" and "H" models had the Gunner in the forward compartment on the upper
deck in an aft facing ejection seat adjacent to the Electronic Warfare Officer.
Most gunners prized their private compartment in the tail and viewed their move
forward as a step down in the world.
I'm sorry I can't provide the specifics, but a number of gunners did successfully
bail out of both "D" and "G" models and were returned in the POW exchange in
1973.
Two B-52 gunners scored kills on MIG-21s which left the score over Hanoi MIGS
zero, BUFs two. If not for outstanding supporting forces (MIG cap, weasels,
etc.) the score might have been very different.
Shortly after Operation Desert Storm the gunners position was eliminated from the
remaining B-52s.
After a couple of years as a Gunner I resigned my non commission and attended OCS
and Pilot Training and returned to the BUF as a Copilot, Aircraft Commander and
IP.
While some B-52Fs were used in Southeast Asia during the first few months of the
Arc Light operation, the B-52D was the workhorse of the war being joined in the
later years by the B-52G.
The B-52D was modified to carry a load of 84 Mk-82 slicks internally and 24 of
about anything externally. Some claimed we loaded it on Sunday and could bomb
all week!
My time in the BUF came to an end in 1971 when I transitioned into the FB-111,
but that is another story.
While most Arc Light missions were flown over South Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia, a
number went into the panhandle of North Vietnam throughout the war and B-52s
participated in Linebacker I.
A total of 16 B-52s were lost in Linebacker II in December '72.
Ed Mac Neil
Ancient Aviator
North Hampton, NH , USA
BlackBeard
krzta...@aol.comMAYBENOT (Krztalizer) wrote:
>After twenty years of lobbying efforts before the uniform board folks, Navy
>Helicopter SAR Swimmers at last have their specialty badge, some 15 years after
>the Maint Rates in the Navy were given their own "Enlisted Aviation Warfare
>Specialist" - wings qualification / badge. Always seemed odd to me to see a
>Supply Chief wearing a set of wings (essentially for memorizing ship classes,
>history and regulations) , especially during a flying billet tour where I flew
>for a year before I recieved my aircrew wings. I spent three weeks earning
>the EAWS wings, but rarely wore them because for some reason, Uniform
>Regulations proclaimed that the "Maint Wings" were of a higher presidence than
>my hard-earned Navy Aircrew Wings.
>
>Gordon
Agreed. But then, I'm very biased. From what I hear now, they are trying
to standardize the requirements and make some sense of them. They still
have a ways to go though.
BlackBeard
krzta...@aol.comMAYBENOT (Krztalizer) wrote:
>>
>
>Forger? The F/A Teen Test Pilot at Dryden?
>>>GREAT GUY<<
>
Same man, Mark Stuckey USMC. He was one of our MSI/OFP test pilots
when I was working on that stuff. This was his last tour (I think) before
getting out and taking a job down the road (NASA Dryden). He loved his
old Phantoms. He always wanted to be an astronaut. Almost made it but..
Horse shoes and hand grenades... Maybe he'll get a shot at it now as a
civ.
Mary Shafer
> In article <19981205220319...@ng41.aol.com>,
> krzta...@aol.comMAYBENOT (Krztalizer) wrote:
>
> >Forger? The F/A Teen Test Pilot at Dryden?
> >>>GREAT GUY<<
> Same man, Mark Stuckey USMC. He was one of our MSI/OFP test pilots
> when I was working on that stuff. This was his last tour (I think)
> before getting out and taking a job down the road (NASA Dryden). He
> loved his old Phantoms. He always wanted to be an astronaut.
> Almost made it but.. Horse shoes and hand grenades... Maybe he'll
> get a shot at it now as a civ.
Yes, Mark was at China Lake when we hired him.
We don't have a very good record here of producing astronauts. The
last test pilot of ours who turned into an astronaut was Fred Haise.
The only other one was Neil Armstrong. A nice pair of guys, but that
wasn't exactly yesterday. I don't think any of our other test pilots
have ever even applied, actually.
I don't think Forger came here in the hope of getting an astronaut
slot. I don't think being a Dryden test pilot is much of a
recommendation, particularly compared to being a nominee of one of the
branches of the military.
Ex-astronauts come here--Dave Scott, Vance Brand, Gordon
Fullerton--when they're done being astronauts. Gordo is a test pilot,
but Dave was our Center director and Vance is currently our Chief
Engineer.
--
Mary Shafer NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, CA
SR-71 Flying Qualities Lead Engineer Of course I don't speak for NASA
sha...@reseng.dfrc.nasa.gov DoD #362 KotFR
URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html
For personal messages, please use sha...@ursa-major.spdcc.com
Albatross
I guess you never lived til you've tried to take a few z's in an M-60A1.
Ain't much leg room, no place to stretch out, and always a knob or lever or
cage edge digging you in the kidneys.
Still, I was much happier with my 56-ton rack than I would have been as leg
infantry. Them guys had it crappy. At least I didn't have to sleep on the
ground, although sleeping in a pool of grease is a lot of fun too.
As far as USAF, everyone knew they had it easiest. Talk about kick myself
in the ass when I figgered out, freezing my ass off in a tank in Ft. Knox,
Kentucky, I coulda been chasing tail and eating barbecue at Lackland in San
Antonio. Guess we live and learn.
ALBATROSS/General Balthus
antar...@earthlink.net
Krztalizer wrote in message <19981205213106...@ng41.aol.com>...
wal...@oneimage.com
>Habitability, habitability.........>
>I guess you never lived til you've tried to take a few z's in an M-60A1.
>Ain't much leg room, no place to stretch out, and always a knob or lever or
>cage edge digging you in the kidneys.
>
>Still, I was much happier with my 56-ton rack than I would have been as leg
>infantry. Them guys had it crappy. At least I didn't have to sleep on the
>ground, although sleeping in a pool of grease is a lot of fun too.
>
>As far as USAF, everyone knew they had it easiest. Talk about kick myself
>in the ass when I figgered out, freezing my ass off in a tank in Ft. Knox,
>Kentucky, I coulda been chasing tail and eating barbecue at Lackland in San
>Antonio. Guess we live and learn.
>>ALBATROSS/General Balthus
>>>>>>It sounds like you were Air Force enlisted, and none too happy with your
>>>military experience. Well, it was my experience that you AF EMs had it
>>>pretty good, especially compared to grunts spending months living in the
>>>field, sailors sleeping in crowded ship berths/hotbunking in teeny-tiny
>>>attack subs and soldiers living in open bay barracks dating back to
>>>WWII.>>>Glenn Dowdy
>>>>I tend to agree. While stationed on Diego Garcia, living in a
>Sprinterville>>hootch that was 4 feet off the gravel and yet still flooded from the
>5-month>>monsoon, my Air Force O-3 sister called on the Bat Phone from Misawa to
>whine>>at me about having to share a common kitchen in her apartment/quarters.
>Since>>the nearest kitchen to my quarters was 4 miles away, I was having trouble
>being>>empathetic. I consider the living arrangements for Air Force to be far and
>>away the most spacious and accommodating of all.
>>>>Navy shipboard life ranged from barbaric to comfortable depending on the
>food,>>which truly makes everything else secondary. Ashore, Navy Barracks always
>>tended to be dens of sin, thankfully. Our reward after a few months at sea
>was>>to come home to a barracks with a "condemned by order of the Commander"
>sign on>>the door (Barracks 864 at NAS North Island, that was condemned and
>inhabited>>at the same time for about a decade). To make up for it, there was an
>attached>>bar that we knew was "crawling distance" to our rooms in the adjoining
>>housing, which was my primary reason for choosing the Naval Service over
>Army>>or Marines.>>Gordon>><====(A+C====>>>USN SAR Aircrew
>>
is the first hurdle in the USAF career assignment system. Since we don't have any jobs for
persons with lesser giftedness, only those smart enough to make the right choice get
aboard. (Grin) Sorry you-all made the wrong jump . . . (Grin again) But then if you can't
take a joke don't re-enlist . . .(It was hard to laugh when I got shipped to Thule)
Walt Bj
>
>
>
Krztalizer
On second thought, what am I bitching about Diego Garcia? I loved that place -
like Gilligan's Island with a bar (Seaman's Club) and a car (for a while, I was
the driver for the Australian Admiral that came to visit - and he had the only
car on the island!). I wouldn't have traded that for Thule or Keflavik (our
version). Ok, Walt - you picked better. I *knew* I should have been a fighter
pilot instead of a jet mech! :)
Krztalizer
Test Pilot is a top-shelf consolation prize :)
>I don't think any of our other test pilots
>have ever even applied, actually.
>
>I don't think Forger came here in the hope of getting an astronaut
>slot. I don't think being a Dryden test pilot is much of a
>recommendation, particularly compared to being a nominee of one of the
>branches of the military.
>
>
I forgot to ask you - who was flying the X-33 sim in a nosedive? I blew it and
don't recall either of those two guys, but the 10-second spin recovery was
pretty impressive!
v/r
Gordon (not Fullerton, sadly)
Lex says hello Mary
Dweezil Dwarftosser
<antar...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>As far as USAF, everyone knew they had it easiest. Talk about kick myself
>in the ass when I figgered out, freezing my ass off in a tank in Ft. Knox,
>Kentucky, I coulda been chasing tail and eating barbecue at Lackland in San
>Antonio. Guess we live and learn.
Yeah, but were you lied to ?
During the better part of a year which I spent in Denver going to tech
school, their incoming briefing talked about the half-dozen women's
colleges and nursing schools there...resulting in 12 women for every
young adult male in Denver.
They lied.
There were 14 - not 12 !
- John T.
Mary Shafer
> I forgot to ask you - who was flying the X-33 sim in a nosedive? I
> blew it and don't recall either of those two guys, but the 10-second
> spin recovery was pretty impressive!
Bob Clarke, a controls engineer, with John Bresina, a sim engineer.
After you left John chided me for not hanging around a little longer
so they could make you fly it.
> Lex says hello Mary
Tell him I said hello back. The best part of doing tours here is
showing kids how much fun airplanes and research can be.
Just a reminder to everyone else: Dryden is doing public tours again
and AFFTC never stopped. The Dryden tours are at 1000 and 1300 every
Federal work day (with a few exceptions) and the AFFTC tour is at 1000
on Friday. Both tours are free but capacity is limited so you need
reservations. Call (805) 258-3460 for the Dryden tour and (805)
277-3517 for the AFFTC tour. Photography is permitted and you need
not be a US citizen or resident for either tour.
L.R.S.
Humm....spent a year at Thule myself. One of the best years of my
life. Danish women, American women, good friends in the same boat,
long dark nights, long bright days, camping on the icecap, watching
the icebergs drift by, the Blue Nose Club, the Long Branch
Saloon....great year. But without a certain woman being there again,
I wouldn't want to do it over again....hehehehe
L. Sobkoviak, 12SW Public Affairs, May 1982-May 1983
BUFDRVR
>-
>like Gilligan's Island with a bar (Seaman's Club)
Don't forget the EXPAT Clubs, "build your own pizza" night. The Terriaki Burger
at the Seamans club was the best hamburger I've ever had. Combine this with the
cheap deep sea fishing and the free haircuts and DG wasn't that bad. BUT I was
only there for 90 days....... AND another 45-60 the end of next month, time to
work on my tan again I guess........
BUFDRVR
"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"
Gord Beaman
>
>Humm....spent a year at Thule myself. One of the best years of my
>life. Danish women, American women, good friends in the same boat,
>long dark nights, long bright days, camping on the icecap, watching
>the icebergs drift by, the Blue Nose Club, the Long Branch
>Saloon....great year. But without a certain woman being there again,
>I wouldn't want to do it over again....hehehehe
>
>L. Sobkoviak, 12SW Public Affairs, May 1982-May 1983
>
>
--cut--
Gee...guess the early eighties were a helluva lot better than the mid
fifties then...I spent a pretty bleak couple of weeks in Thule on an
Arctic resupply mission then...zip women there then, not a one...plus
it was in winter and constant darkness...pretty dismal I assure you...