John McCain Is No "Hero POW Resister"
sam...@my-deja.com
He seriously violated the Military Code of Conduct by trading "military
information" and making public statements that appeared favorable to
the communist war effort in exchange for "special treatment."
And after his release in 1973, McCain continued helping the Vietnamese
communists despite the objections of veterans groups.
Consisting of six articles in simple language, the United States
Military Code of Conduct orders American military personnel to resist
capture at all cost and if captured; to attempt to escape, to give the
enemy no information other than name, rank, serial number and date of
birth, to take charge if senior, to obey orders of the seniors, to
accept no favors from the enemy and to make no written or oral
statements disloyal to the United States.
In the original writing, the Code was declared the definitive code
specifying the responsibilities of American military personnel while in
combat or captivity.
The Code holds U.S. prisoners of war responsible to protect--at
whatever cost--the cause for which the United States stands by
continuing to carry on some form of resistance with the enemy. The
establishment of the Code of Conduct was the result of what was
considered in 1955 an embarrassing high number of U.S. servicemen held
prisoners during the Korean War who apparently did little to resist
collaborating with the enemy.
John McCain's Time Line
October 1967 – During his 23rd mission over Vietnam on Oct. 26, 1967,
Lt. Commander John McCain was shot down by a surface-to-air missile.
After being periodically slapped around for "three or four days" by his
captors who wanted military information from him, McCain called for an
officer on his fourth day of captivity. He told the officer, "O.K.,
I'll give you military information if you will take me to the
hospital." -U.S. News and World Report, May 14, 1973 article written by
former POW John McCain
McCain was taken to Gai Lam military hospital. (U.S. government
documents)
"Demands for military information were accompanied by threats to
terminate my medical treatment if I [McCain] did not cooperate.
Eventually, I gave them my ship's name and squadron number, and
confirmed that my target had been the power plant." Page 193-194, Faith
of My Fathers by John McCain
November 1967 - Nov. 9, 1967 (U.S. government documents) Hanoi press
began quoting him giving more specific military information.
One report dated read, "To a question of the correspondent, McCain
answered: ‘My assignment to the Oriskany, I told myself, was due to
serious losses in pilots, which were sustained by this aircraft carrier
(due to its raids on the North Vietnam territory - VNA) and which
necessitated replacements. From 10 to 12 pilots were transferred like
me from the Forrestal to the Oriskany. Before I was shot down, we had
made several sorties. Altogether, I made about 23 flights over North
Vietnam.'"
In that report, McCain was quoted describing the number of aircraft in
his flight, information about rescue ships, and the order of which his
attack was supposed to take place.
Through the Freedom of Information Act, the U.S. Veteran Dispatch
acquired a declassified Department of Defense (DOD) transcript of an
interview prominent French television reporter Francois Chalais had
with McCain.
Chalais told of his private interview with POW McCain in a series
titled Life in Hanoi, which was aired in Europe. In the series, Chalais
said his meeting with McCain was "a meeting which will leave its mark
on my life."
"My meeting with John Sidney McCain was certainly one of those meetings
which will affect me most profoundly for the rest of my life. I had
asked the North Vietnamese authorities to allow me to personally
interrogate an American prisoner. They authorized me to do so. When
night fell, they took me---without any precautions or mystery--to a
hospital near the Gia Lam airport reserved for the military. (passage
omitted) The officer who receives me begins: I ask you not to ask any
questions of political nature. If this man replies in a way unfavorable
to us, they will not hesitate to speak of ‘brainwashing' and conclude
that we threatened him.
"‘This John Sidney McCain is not an ordinary prisoner. His father is
none other than Admiral Edmond John McCain, commander in chief of U.S.
naval forces in Europe. (passage omitted)'"
". . . Many visitors came to talk to me [John McCain]. Not all of it
was for interrogation. Once a famous North Vietnamese writer–an old man
with a Ho Chi Minh beard–came to my room, wanting to know all about
Ernest Hemingway . . . Others came to find out about life in the United
States. They figured because my father had such high military rank that
I was of the royalty or governing circle . . . One of the men who came
to see me, whose picture I recognized later, was Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap,
the hero of Dienbienphu." U.S. News and World Report, May 14, 1973
article written by former POW John McCain
December 1967 – Vietnamese and possibly Soviet doctors operate (early
December) on McCain's Leg. Later that month, six weeks after he was
shot down, McCain was taken from the hospital and delivered to Room No.
11 of "The Plantation" into the hands of two other U.S. POWs, Air
Force majors George "Bud" Day and Norris Overly. They helped further
nurse him along until he was eventually able to walk by himself. --
Faith of My Fathers by John McCain
January 1968 – A group of "obviously senior" Communist Party members
visited and McCain talked with them. --Faith of My Fathers by John
McCain
May 1968 – "In May of 1968, I [McCain] was interviewed by two North
Vietnamese generals at separate times." U.S. News and World Report, May
14, 1973 article written by former POW John McCain
July 1968 - McCain claims he was next introduced for the first time to
the "torture ropes." He said the torture went on for several days
before he broke and agreed to write and sign a confession that he was a
"black criminal." McCain said that he was moved to another building
away from the other POWs. --The Nightingale's Song (No returned POWs
can confirm McCain's claims of being tortured)
McCain said (page 136) that he was so distraught because he had signed
the statement that he attempted suicide but was stopped when a guard
burst into the room. --The Nightingale's Song (No returned POWs can
confirm McCain's claims of "attempted suicide")
June 1969 – "Reds Say PW Songbird Is Pilot Son of Admiral
. . . Hanoi has aired a broadcast in which the pilot son of United
States Commander in the Pacific, Adm. John McCain, purportedly admits
to having bombed civilian targets in North Vietnam and praises medical
treatment he has received since being taken prisoner." New York Daily
News, June 5, 1969
"The English-Language broadcast beamed at South Vietnam was one of a
series using American prisoners. It was in response to a plea by
Defense Secretary Melvin S. Laird, May 19, that North Vietnam treat
prisoners according to the humanitarian standards set forth by the
Geneva Convention." The Washington Post - June 5, 1969
January 1970– "There was pressure to see American antiwar delegations,
which seemed to increase as the time went on. But, there wasn't any
torture. In January 1970, I [McCain] was taken to a quiz with ‘The
Cat.' He told me that he wanted me to see a foreign guest." U.S. News
and World Report, May 14, 1973 article written by former POW John McCain
A declassified DOD document reports an interview between POW McCain and
Dr. Fernando Barral, a Spanish psychiatrist who was living in Cuba at
the time. The interview was published in the Havana Granma in January
1970.
According to the DOD report, the meeting between Barral and McCain
(which was photographed by the Vietnamese) took place away from the
prison at the office of the Committee for Foreign Cultural Relations in
Hanoi. During the meeting, POW McCain sipped coffee and ate oranges and
cakes with his interrogator.
While talking with Barral, McCain seriously violated the military
Code of Conduct by failing to evade answering questions "to the utmost"
of his ability when he, according to the DOD report, helped Barral by
answering questions in Spanish, a language McCain had learned in school.
March 15, 1973 – McCain was released from the Hanoi Hilton and
returned to the United States.
The Late Fall, 1974 - McCain returned to Vietnam with a delegation of
officials as guests of the South Vietnamese government to celebrate the
Republic of Vietnam's National Day. South Vietnam's president, Nguyen
Van Thieu, had invited representatives of major U.S. veterans
organizations and several POW's including McCain to honor the sacrifice
of U.S. veterans "for the South Vietnamese cause."
At a reception, the host, one of President Thieu's closest aides, told
the visiting U.S. veterans that he and the president would do anything
they could to make sure members of the delegation could meet anyone
they wanted or go anywhere they wanted to go.
McCain, still a United States Navy officer stuck up his hand and said
he wanted to visit Con Son Island. The request stunned the host and the
rest of the delegation. Con Son, located fifty miles off the southern
coast was the "site of South Vietnam's toughest prison, where the most
dangerous suspected communist and other prisoners were kept."
Four years before, in 1970, American anti-war activist Don Luce, had
led a U.S. congressional delegation to the prison island to publicize
South Vietnam's holding of prisoners in cells that became infamous as
South Vietnam's prisoner "tiger cages."
As a result of the Luce delegation trip to Con Son Island, the
communist Vietnamese had gained an international propaganda bonanza
against the U.S. war effort in Vietnam.
McCain's hosts were extremely uncomfortable with McCain's request, but
he kept pressing. A visit for McCain to Con Son was arranged for the
last day before the groups departure.
McCain visited the Con Son prison and interrogated camp officials about
the conditions in the prison.
Some where between Con Son and the mainland McCain decided not to make
an issue of the conditions in the prison. He did not speak on the
record for reporters waiting to hear what he had to say.
June 1, 1988- New York Times- "When John McCain arrived in here [in
Washington] as a freshman Republican Congressman in 1983, one of the
issues very much on his mind was how the United States should deal with
Vietnam . . . He was, he said, dismayed by the Reagan Administration's
flat refusal to afford any kind of diplomatic recognition to Hanoi,
something he thought could help clear up a number of issues, including
the fate of those servicemen still missing in action . . . Mr. McCain,
now the junior Senator from Arizona, is leading a legislative effort to
force the Administration to open a lower-level American post in
Vietnam, which could be preliminary to more formal relations."
July 11, 1995 - Sen. Jonh McCain, R-Ariz., and Sen. John Kerry, D-
Mass., gave President Bill Clinton the valuable political cover he
needed to remove the U.S. imposed trade embargo against communist
Vietnam. All major U.S. veterans organizations, the two POW/MIA family
groups, and the majority of Vietnamese Americans in this country
opposed Clinton's lifting of the embargo and the later normalizing of
diplomatic relations.
March 25, 1999, The Phoenix New Times: Ted Guy and Gordon "Swede"
Larson, two former POWs, who were McCain's senior ranking officers
(SRO's), at the time McCain says he was tortured in solitary
confinement, told the New Times that while they could not guarantee
that McCain was not physically harmed, they doubted it.
"Between the two of us, it's our belief, and to the best of our
knowledge, that no prisoner was beaten or harmed physically in that
camp [known as "The Plantation"]," Larson says. ". . . My only
contention with the McCain deal is that while he was at The Plantation,
to the best of my knowledge and Ted's knowledge, he was not physically
abused in any way. No one was in that camp. It was the camp that people
were released from."
Ted Sampley
For more, go to: U.S. Veteran Dispatch:
http://www.usvetdsp.com/main.shtml
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Donnell Miller
credentials? Any one want to buy a bridge? Were you there Mr. Sampley? You
are a troll. Toilet paper is cheaper than the filth you want us to
subscribe to.
Ralph Savelsberg
military code of conduct. Even if McCain didn't completely follow it, does
that automatically mean he didn't resist or isn't a hero? Did he ever state
that he never ever violated the code?
Ralph
Ed Rasimus
>John McCain Is No "Hero POW Resister"
Crawl back under your rock you disgusting piece of crap.
Or come visit with us at the River Rats Convention in San Antonio in
April to discuss with ex-POWs your allegations.
Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
*** Ziff-Davis Interactive
*** (http://www.zdnet.com)
Ed Rasimus
>I doubt the authenticity of this A.. H.le. Who is Sampley? What are his
>credentials? Any one want to buy a bridge? Were you there Mr. Sampley? You
>are a troll. Toilet paper is cheaper than the filth you want us to
>subscribe to.
>
>
Sampley is a "wannabe" who did not serve during the war and apparently
is trafficing on a relationship through marriage to gain credibility
on the issue of POWs and the League of Families.
His lies and innuendo have been discounted by respected folks from
the ex-POW community like Bud Day.
His allegations have been refuted in detail on the NAM-POW list
server. Here is just one of the items that has been posted or
published. This one focuses on Paul Weyrich, darling of the
ultra-right, who apparently bought the Sampley bullshit.
Gents --- John McCain needs our help!
>
>This is the latest smear on McCain. We cannot tolerate this. Paul Weyrich
>is is almost totalitarian in his approach to politics --- He is hard right
>and irrational, from the tone of this article, ruthless and a liar. Please
>flood his office with major --- repeat --- major bitching about this smear.
>We alone are best qualified to smash this bastard. Weyrich quotes the likes
>of Ted Sampley, Earl Hopper --- he invokes Leo, Sam and Jerry Denton to give
>his smearing some credibility through reverse logic, and then he brings in
>John's former wife, Carol,who I love dearly ---- Carol is VERY supportive of
>John's bid for the presidency.
>
>Gents --- PLEASE hammer this bastard. This is one scumbag who needs to hear
>from us. I am traveling, just got this and will be taking on Weyrich
>personally when I get back to DC but we want to weigh in right now.
>
>Please Commence Firing --- Leo,Sam and Jerry please let PW hear from you
>immediately. The arrogance of this prick is unbelievable. He lives in the
>world of softmoney and ultra right wing politics. His advocacy would make
>you all puke.
>
>His number is at the bottom of the page. Call him, please. There is also a
>website of his organization --- check it out and fire an email to it. Share
>your emails with all of us by BCC all of us on the NamPow list serve (Make
>sure you BCC that!!)
>
>Do this guys, do this!!
>
>Semper Fi and GBU,
>
>Orson
>
>In a message dated 1/6/2000 2:21:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, Paulusmc
writes:
>
><< The Free Congress Commentary
> Is McCain the Hero He Claims to Be?
> by: Paul M. Weyrich
> John McCain, the media's candidate for the Republican presidential
>nomination, is a threat to frontrunner George W. Bush at least in New
>Hampshire. And if he wins there and goes on to take South Carolina, who
>knows, he might go the distance.
> McCain, when seen from a distance, is a very attractive candidate. He is
>distinguished looking. He has actually been elected and re-elected to
>something. He is, in marked contrast to some of his primary opponents, very
>articulate when challenged. Yet, no candidate since Barry Goldwater stirs up
>anger the way McCain does.
> For Republican Party professionals, his McCain-Feingold campaign "reform"
>bill amounts to surrender to the enemy. These party people were not surprised
>to see him jump in bed with former Senator Bill Bradley in New Hampshire to
>promise if elected he would do everything in his power to pass his version of
>campaign reform. "Unilateral disarmament for the Republican Party" is the way
>Texas Governor and presidential rival George W. Bush sees McCain-Feingold.
> Various lobby groups that follow legislation and report on the same to their
>members contend that McCain-Feingold would shut them down. The National Right
>to Life Committee feels so strongly about that issue that it has begun to
>rate the vote Senators cast on campaign reform as a life issue. That is the
>first time in National Right to Life's twenty-five year history that they
>have ever rated a bill outside of the strict life issue cluster. "This is
>life or death to us," says Darla St. Martin, a veteran right to life
official.
> Then there is the tobacco tax hike. Just as his Republican colleagues voted
>to kill McCain-Feingold, it was Republican votes which also killed the
>tobacco bill which was simply a huge tax hike disguised as a health bill.
>Normally placid Washington reps for leading companies, who are prepared to
>accept anything, get red faced when McCain's name is even mentioned.
> Now, the Manchester Union Leader, in a blistering editorial by Bernadette
>Malone Connolly, accuses McCain of supporting an education bill that is
>"befitting a Communist dictator, not an American President." The McCain bill
>would give a 25% federal tax credit to teachers who are proclaimed to be
>"excellent" by state education officials. The Union Leader cannot imagine why
>teachers should be singled out when firefighters, police, nurses, health care
>professionals and a host of other professions also have people who do
>excellent work but are underpaid for doing so. But, the Union Leader
>concludes, McCain is willing to tax people he doesn't like (smokers, for
>example) while giving tax breaks to those he does like. Says the editorial,
>"this dangerous philosophy shunts the Constitution and the free economy aside
>for the sake of a noble whim -- teachers are worth it. This is a political
>philosophy in which the seeds of dictatorship are easily sown," the editorial
>concludes.
> Just who is John McCain, the man so admired by the national media because he
>doesn't hesitate to stick it in the eye of his own political base? He is a
>man who is running for president in part, he says, out of patriotism. He did,
>after all, serve as a POW for several years in Vietnam. He has written a book
>about his experiences. That service, at least, ought to be
>non-controversial. Other former POWs such as Jerry Denton, Sam Johnson and
>Leo Thorsness all ran for office and while issue positions they took were in
>contention, no one questioned their military service.
> That is not true about McCain. There are families of POWs and MIAs who are
>working against McCain day and night who outright accuse him of being a
>traitor. Earl Hopper of Glendale, Arizona, whose son has been missing since
>1968, says McCain "never turned a finger to help any of the [POW-MIA]
>families." Hopper contends that at a minimum, 66 men were left behind when
>McCain and the others were released in 1973. Others put the number as high as
>300. Hopper says that McCain undermined every effort to get the federal
>government to acknowledge that men were left behind.
> He and a host of others, now labeled by Newsweek Magazine's Michael Isikoff
>as extremists, are out to see to it that John McCain does not become
>president. One of the most prolific of the 5,000 or so in that community is
>Ted Sampley of North Carolina who brands McCain "The Manchurian candidate," a
>reference to a 1962 movie about a presidential candidate who was under the
>control of the Chinese Communists. Sampley even has a website detailing
>charges against McCain: www.usvetdsp.com/main.shtml . He says he fears that
>the Vietnamese have something on McCain. He and Hopper both point to a 1993
>meeting between McCain, Pete Peterson, who was to become Ambassador to
>Vietnam, and Vietnamese officials. McCain and Peterson, according to Sampley,
>begged the Vietnamese never to make their files on the POWs public. Hopper
>fervently believes that McCain's forgiving attitude toward his captors (he
>has led the fight for normalization of relations with Vietnam) is traceable
>to whatever is in those files. The Cambodian Khmer Rouge has claimed that
>"McCain is a Vietnamese agent" for whatever that is worth.
> The charges against McCain seem to center around the question of whether or
>not McCain violated his oath of office while a prisoner. McCain himself
>vaguely suggests that he wishes that he had been stronger in his service over
>there. Hopper contends that McCain gave information to the Vietnamese in
>exchange for being in a hospital for six weeks. Hopper and a number of the
>families associated with the POW effort want McCain to explain his absence of
>nearly two years. McCain says he was in solitary confinement during that
>time, but POW families cite information from the North Vietnamese and our own
>U.S. intelligence service to the contrary.
> Paul E. Rifenberg, writing in the Niles, Michigan Daily Star, says that the
>"the person in Washington who has done more to bury the POW/MIA issue than
>any other elected official is none other than U.S. Senator John McCain from
>Arizona, himself a former POW." Indeed, the POW/MIA families will readily
>supply file folders three inches thick of correspondence related to McCain.
>The level of emotion generated by this correspondence is quite striking.
>Their unsubstantiated claims against McCain range from his driving one of
>their witnesses to tears at a hearing, to his angrily pushing and shoving
>constituents, to sexual harassment. And they claim he is a traitor to his
>country besides.
> In a way, the charges are reminiscent of those against Bill Clinton in 1992.
> It is hard to know who is telling the truth in all of this. McCain and his
>allies vigorously deny the charges. It is odd, however, that someone who is
>running for president on the basis of service to his country would generate
>that level of hatred. There must be some basis for the emotions expressed by
>otherwise rational people.
> I can contribute little to this dialogue except this: when I worked for the
>late Senator Gordon Allott of Colorado, a couple of nice young ladies kept
>the issue of the POWs squarely in front of every Senator. One of those who
>worked tirelessly was Carol McCain, the Senator's first wife. She worked her
>heart out for that husband of hers who was in captivity. Everyone who
>encountered Mrs. McCain and the others were moved to action by their tenacity
>and fervor. John McCain's way to repay this unyielding devotion was to almost
>immediately, to put it in Clintonesque terms, "cause pain in my marriage."
> If you had met the first Mrs. McCain, just the thought of this produces
>anger. Again, just as McCain admits that he did not completely follow the
>military's code of conduct while he was a prisoner, so also does he now admit
>that he caused the break-up of his first marriage. Somehow, after Clinton,
>glib apologies for such things are harder to take.
> One thing I also believe is true. I know of no other POW who has been
>branded a traitor by his own base of supporters. It may not always be true
>that where there is smoke there is fire, but many times it is true. It just
>seems to me that voters need to know a great deal more about John McCain
>before they say thumbs up or thumbs down. In that respect, the clock is
>surely ticking.
Keith WIllshaw
<sam...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:861lid$1c4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> John McCain Is No "Hero POW Resister"
Please don't Feed the Trolls
Keith
David Lentz
It was certainly possible to to subject to more duress than John
McCain and to resist more:
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/history/vietnam/sijan.htm
Notice picture on the home page:
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/
McCain's conduct is open to question.
David
Ragnar (no, not THE Ragnar)
exist, but are not important to this discussion). It is a "guide" to assist
the POW is resisting. "Breaking" the code of conduct is something that lots
of guys did after enough torture, starvation, filth, etc.
2. I bet that the author (Sampley) of this post has never been a POW, not
attended service-connected POW training, and has never even been in the
military. In short, a wanna-be with an axe to grind.
3. Get a better reason to dislike McCain; the POW issue will get you
nothing in this group.
Jeff Heidman
> Ralph Savelsberg wrote:
> ?
> ? I wonder how many of the POWs did succeed in completely following the
> ? military code of conduct. Even if McCain didn't completely follow it, does
> ? that automatically mean he didn't resist or isn't a hero? Did he ever state
> ? that he never ever violated the code?
> ?
> ? Ralph
>
> It was certainly possible to to subject to more duress than John
> McCain and to resist more:
>
> http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/history/vietnam/sijan.htm
>
> Notice picture on the home page:
>
> http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/
>
> McCain's conduct is open to question.
>
> David
So you think every POW should be held to a standard established by someone who
won the MOH for their conduct?
--
Jeff Heidman
People who want to share their religious views with you almost never want you to
share yours with them.
--Dave Barry
SentRaven
my $0.02
Sampley could spend his time better talking about Jane Fonda =)
<sam...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:861lid$1c4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> John McCain Is No "Hero POW Resister"
> He seriously violated the Military Code of Conduct by trading "military
> information" and making public statements that appeared favorable to
> the communist war effort in exchange for "special treatment."
>
> And after his release in 1973, McCain continued helping the Vietnamese
> communists despite the objections of veterans groups.
>
> Consisting of six articles in simple language, the United States
> Military Code of Conduct orders American military personnel to resist
> capture at all cost and if captured; to attempt to escape, to give the
> enemy no information other than name, rank, serial number and date of
> birth, to take charge if senior, to obey orders of the seniors, to
> accept no favors from the enemy and to make no written or oral
> statements disloyal to the United States.
>
> In the original writing, the Code was declared the definitive code
> specifying the responsibilities of American military personnel while in
> combat or captivity.
>
> The Code holds U.S. prisoners of war responsible to protect--at
> whatever cost--the cause for which the United States stands by
> continuing to carry on some form of resistance with the enemy. The
> establishment of the Code of Conduct was the result of what was
> considered in 1955 an embarrassing high number of U.S. servicemen held
> prisoners during the Korean War who apparently did little to resist
> collaborating with the enemy.
>
> John McCain's Time Line
>
> October 1967 - During his 23rd mission over Vietnam on Oct. 26, 1967,
> was for interrogation. Once a famous North Vietnamese writer-an old man
> with a Ho Chi Minh beard-came to my room, wanting to know all about
> Ernest Hemingway . . . Others came to find out about life in the United
> States. They figured because my father had such high military rank that
> I was of the royalty or governing circle . . . One of the men who came
> to see me, whose picture I recognized later, was Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap,
> the hero of Dienbienphu." U.S. News and World Report, May 14, 1973
> article written by former POW John McCain
>
> December 1967 - Vietnamese and possibly Soviet doctors operate (early
> December) on McCain's Leg. Later that month, six weeks after he was
> shot down, McCain was taken from the hospital and delivered to Room No.
> 11 of "The Plantation" into the hands of two other U.S. POWs, Air
> Force majors George "Bud" Day and Norris Overly. They helped further
> nurse him along until he was eventually able to walk by himself. --
> Faith of My Fathers by John McCain
>
> January 1968 - A group of "obviously senior" Communist Party members
> visited and McCain talked with them. --Faith of My Fathers by John
> McCain
>
> May 1968 - "In May of 1968, I [McCain] was interviewed by two North
> Vietnamese generals at separate times." U.S. News and World Report, May
> 14, 1973 article written by former POW John McCain
>
> July 1968 - McCain claims he was next introduced for the first time to
> the "torture ropes." He said the torture went on for several days
> before he broke and agreed to write and sign a confession that he was a
> "black criminal." McCain said that he was moved to another building
> away from the other POWs. --The Nightingale's Song (No returned POWs
> can confirm McCain's claims of being tortured)
>
> McCain said (page 136) that he was so distraught because he had signed
> the statement that he attempted suicide but was stopped when a guard
> burst into the room. --The Nightingale's Song (No returned POWs can
> confirm McCain's claims of "attempted suicide")
>
> June 1969 - "Reds Say PW Songbird Is Pilot Son of Admiral
> . . . Hanoi has aired a broadcast in which the pilot son of United
> States Commander in the Pacific, Adm. John McCain, purportedly admits
> to having bombed civilian targets in North Vietnam and praises medical
> treatment he has received since being taken prisoner." New York Daily
> News, June 5, 1969
>
> "The English-Language broadcast beamed at South Vietnam was one of a
> series using American prisoners. It was in response to a plea by
> Defense Secretary Melvin S. Laird, May 19, that North Vietnam treat
> prisoners according to the humanitarian standards set forth by the
> Geneva Convention." The Washington Post - June 5, 1969
>
> January 1970- "There was pressure to see American antiwar delegations,
> which seemed to increase as the time went on. But, there wasn't any
> torture. In January 1970, I [McCain] was taken to a quiz with 'The
> Cat.' He told me that he wanted me to see a foreign guest." U.S. News
> and World Report, May 14, 1973 article written by former POW John McCain
>
> A declassified DOD document reports an interview between POW McCain and
> Dr. Fernando Barral, a Spanish psychiatrist who was living in Cuba at
> the time. The interview was published in the Havana Granma in January
> 1970.
>
> According to the DOD report, the meeting between Barral and McCain
> (which was photographed by the Vietnamese) took place away from the
> prison at the office of the Committee for Foreign Cultural Relations in
> Hanoi. During the meeting, POW McCain sipped coffee and ate oranges and
> cakes with his interrogator.
>
> While talking with Barral, McCain seriously violated the military
> Code of Conduct by failing to evade answering questions "to the utmost"
> of his ability when he, according to the DOD report, helped Barral by
> answering questions in Spanish, a language McCain had learned in school.
>
> March 15, 1973 - McCain was released from the Hanoi Hilton and
Donnell Miller
Thank you.
Don
Donnell Miller
David Lentz wrote:
> Ralph Savelsberg wrote:
> >
> > I wonder how many of the POWs did succeed in completely following the
> > military code of conduct. Even if McCain didn't completely follow it, does
> > that automatically mean he didn't resist or isn't a hero? Did he ever state
> > that he never ever violated the code?
> >
str...@hotmail.com
> It was certainly possible to to subject to more duress than John
> McCain and to resist more:
Regarding the Code of Conduct, you must first keep in mind that the
basis of all POW behavior is based on the POW mission of SURVIVING and
RETURNING WITH HONOR.
There's no doubt that Lance P. Sijan is a hero, but his strict
adherence to the code of conduct prevented him from fulfilling the
other part of his mission, e.g. surviving and coming home. His
incredible performance also does not discredit the amazing stories of
hundreds of other POWs. Each individual has their own personal
breaking point, and the "maintaining honor" portion of the POW mission
means that you resist to your maximum. Just because one person's break
point was not as high as another's does not mean they lost honor.
All these men are HEROES, including McCain. Your average American has
no idea what it's like to be a POW. Until they've been one themselves,
they have no right to question the performance of someone like McCain.
Randy Haskin
str...@ix.netcom.com
David P.
> It was certainly possible to to subject to more duress than John
> McCain and to resist more:
> McCain's conduct is open to question
Man I cannot believe this crap. John McCain was just lucky enough to
survive his shoot down. He barely managed to bail out in time as his
Skyhawk was blown out of the sky by a Surface to air missile. But you want
us to think less of him because he didnt try to escape after his bail out?
Upon bail out he collided with the remains of his blown apart A-4.
Because of this he fractured his right knee, both arms, and dislocated both
shoulders. His parachute barely opened up in time....and then had the
misfortune to land in a small lake right in the middle of downtown Hanoi.
Because of his injuries he could not move and nearly drowned trying to get
out of his parachute before locals dragged him from the lake....all the
while kicking....punching....and stabbing him. They nearly killed him until
the NV army arrived to take him to prison....where he was thrown in a cell
without treatment for his injuries.
They probably would have just let him die until they found out he was
the son of an admiral. Even then he had to ' bargain ' for treatment. The
medical treatment that he recieved was just appalling. They incorrectly set
his bones...and because of that he still walks with a limp today.
Despite his injuries....he resisted as much as he could. As much as
any man could be expected. Oh so what....in order to get medical treatment
he gave up trivial information....such as the name of the ship he flew
from....his squadron number....so what.
Dave
David Lentz
Jeff Heidman wrote:
>
> David Lentz wrote:
<snip>
> So you think every POW should be held to a standard established by someone who
> won the MOH for their conduct?
Valid point, the Congressional Medal of Honor is given for going
above and beyond the call of duty. You can't fault anybody,
McCain included, for not winning one. However I have not said
that McCain should have resisted as hard as Captain Lance Sijan
resisted.
I did say, and I do say, that some in McCain situation suffered
more than McCain and resisted more.
McCain admits to giving military information in exchange for
medical treatment:
"O.K., I'll give you military information if you will take me to
the hospital."
-U.S. News and World Report, May 14, 1973 article written by
former POW John McCain.
That raises his conduct in my mind to the level of questionable.
If the standard set forth in Code of Conduct was too high, in
McCain's estimation, he is now in position to affect a change. I
am not aware of such an effort. Which leads me to the conclusion
that McCain accepts the Code of Conduct as appropriate.
Would I have done any better than McCain had I been in similar
situation? Maybe not. Then I am not running for President and
not attempting to portray myself as a hero.
A hero is a person who risks his life for a noble cause. It is
the willing acceptance of risk that make a hero and not the
spotlight that may or may not fall upon him. Public acclimation
does make a person a hero.
David
Yeff
"David Lentz" <dlen...@rochester.rr.com//NOSPAM//> wrote in message
news:C34h4.6241$U5.2...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
<snip>
> If the standard set forth in Code of Conduct was too high, in
> McCain's estimation, he is now in position to affect a change. I
> am not aware of such an effort. Which leads me to the conclusion
> that McCain accepts the Code of Conduct as appropriate.
I went through the DOD Hostage Survival Course (taught by the same
people who run the Survival School).
You are taught to resist to the best of your abilities. What is
the acceptable amount of resistance? How long is a piece of string?
It's all dependant on the person. The school acknowledges that
everyone has a breaking point and there is simply no sense in
expecting someone to choose death over physical comfort.
-Jeff B.
yeff at erols dot com
Stephen Harding
> I did say, and I do say, that some in McCain situation suffered
> more than McCain and resisted more.
>
> McCain admits to giving military information in exchange for
> medical treatment:
>
> "O.K., I'll give you military information if you will take me to
> the hospital."
>
> That raises his conduct in my mind to the level of questionable.
>
> If the standard set forth in Code of Conduct was too high, in
> McCain's estimation, he is now in position to affect a change. I
> am not aware of such an effort. Which leads me to the conclusion
> that McCain accepts the Code of Conduct as appropriate.
I think during the Vietnam War it became more widely accepted that
a POW under torture for information *will be broken*. Few persons
were able to resist "skillfully brutal" interrogation and come away
with any modicum of physical and mental health.
The idea was to give as little information with as long a dely as
possible. But at some point you have to decide whether you are
willing to be beaten to death or start talking. You *will* start
talking!
You believe that you are strong enough to resist. You eventually
reach a point where you realize you are *not* strong enough. The
psychological blow this generates can be quite useful to the enemy.
[The above information comes from several different books written
by former US POWs during Vietnam, that I read many years ago.]
The Code of Conduct standard was too high in practice.
SMH
SentRaven
and the squadron # too! Big secrets there we wanted to keep.......(Next
time we'll sell advertising for snikers....gonna be awile?)
Hal Hanig
"David P." <pow...@airnews.com> wrote in message news:ADCA26EC681A9CB3.49B70FC5...@lp.airnews.net...
William D. Allen Sr.
<sam...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:861lid$1c4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> John McCain Is No "Hero POW Resister"
Eventually, I gave them my ship's name and squadron number, and
> confirmed that my target had been the power plant." Page 193-194, Faith
> of My Fathers by John McCain
How highly classified do you think were his ship name and squadron number
and where his bombs were aimed?
During the Korean War whenever we were in Hong Kong we always checked with
the hired Chinese ship's painters to find out where we were going next. They
always knew before the ship's COs did.
Don't you think the NVN already knew what John told them?
WDA
end
Jeff Heidman
> Jeff Heidman wrote:
> >
> > David Lentz wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > So you think every POW should be held to a standard established by someone who
> > won the MOH for their conduct?
>
> Valid point, the Congressional Medal of Honor is given for going
> above and beyond the call of duty. You can't fault anybody,
> McCain included, for not winning one. However I have not said
> that McCain should have resisted as hard as Captain Lance Sijan
> resisted.
>
> I did say, and I do say, that some in McCain situation suffered
> more than McCain and resisted more.
Fair enough. But you did put up Cpt. Sijan as a counter-example.
> McCain admits to giving military information in exchange for
> medical treatment:
>
> "O.K., I'll give you military information if you will take me to
> the hospital."
>
> -U.S. News and World Report, May 14, 1973 article written by
> former POW John McCain.
>
> That raises his conduct in my mind to the level of questionable.
Not even remotely the case. The standard of conduct is something to aspire to, not a
demand. It is what you should try to hold yourself to, but it is accepted that in
almost all people, it is impossible to attain that standard if your enemy is
determined to break you.
Further, I think it is inappropriate for any of us to "question" his conduct when
those who are eminently more suitable to question his conduct have not had any
problem with his conduct during his time as a POW. Frankly, I think attacks against
his war record as nothing more than politically motivated character assassinations.
> If the standard set forth in Code of Conduct was too high, in
> McCain's estimation, he is now in position to affect a change.
No, he is not.
> I
> am not aware of such an effort. Which leads me to the conclusion
> that McCain accepts the Code of Conduct as appropriate.
I am sure he does. I think there is a discrepancy between what you (and others)
think the Code is and what it actually is.
> Would I have done any better than McCain had I been in similar
> situation? Maybe not. Then I am not running for President and
> not attempting to portray myself as a hero.
Nor is he attempting to portray himself as a hero, but he is one one nonetheless.
> A hero is a person who risks his life for a noble cause.
Than how does McCain not qualify?
personally, I would say a hero is someone who is imply extremely courageous and
self-sacrificing. Whether or not McCain qualifies is not relevant to questioning his
actions as they relate to his time and treatment as a POW in Vietnam.
> It is
> the willing acceptance of risk that make a hero and not the
> spotlight that may or may not fall upon him. Public acclimation
> does make a person a hero.
Has McCain claimed he is a hero for that reason?
Regnirps
>That raises his conduct in my mind to the level of questionable.
>If the standard set forth in Code of Conduct was too high, in
>McCain's estimation, he is now in position to affect a change. I
>am not aware of such an effort. Which leads me to the conclusion
>that McCain accepts the Code of Conduct as appropriate.
This is a load of crap. What could he tell that the Commander in Chief wasn't
telling? Or that wasn't available from Tom Hayden or the American press? The
President and his minions were pre-anouncing strike targets to the enemy!
Russian ships were reporting positions of carriers and other assets with
impunity.
Charlie Springer
Mary Shafer
> I think during the Vietnam War it became more widely accepted that
> a POW under torture for information *will be broken*. Few persons
> were able to resist "skillfully brutal" interrogation and come away
> with any modicum of physical and mental health.
>
> The idea was to give as little information with as long a dely as
> possible. But at some point you have to decide whether you are
> willing to be beaten to death or start talking. You *will* start
> talking!
I have a dear friend who was a POW from '70 to '73, having been
captured when his Phantom was shot down by a SAM. He, in common with
the other twelve POWs held at the same time, did eventually talk. All
resolved to hold out as best they could, some talked earlier than
others but all talked.
> You believe that you are strong enough to resist. You eventually
> reach a point where you realize you are *not* strong enough. The
> psychological blow this generates can be quite useful to the enemy.
> [The above information comes from several different books written
> by former US POWs during Vietnam, that I read many years ago.]
Not just former US POWs during Vietnam, for me, but also IAF POWs
captured in the War of Attrition. ("Season[s] of Captivity", a
powerful book about being a POW.) I've also got an interesting
account of the experiences of some non-aviator POWs in Vietnam, in the
two-volume "Reporting Vietnam". McCain's account, written shortly
after his return to the US, is in it also. I don't want to buy his
book just to compare the recent version to the original version, but
it would be interesting to do, I think.
--
Mary Shafer http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html
sha...@rigel.dfrc.nasa.gov Of course I don't speak for NASA
Lead Handling Qualities Engineer, SR-71/LASRE
NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, CA
For non-aerospace mail, use sha...@ursa-major.spdcc.com please
M. T. Garrison
>> >Do this guys, do this!!
>> >
>> >Semper Fi and GBU,
>> >
>> >Orson
And God Bless you Orson, former squadron mate of mine. I'll never forget the
day you were shot down and captured. I cannot believe that anyone on this net
who has not been a POW in NVN could have the guts or balls to offer up any
remarks concerning the conduct of these fine warriors. I'm a two tour guy in VN
and on the second tour at the end of the war acted on behalf of the Marine
Corps as an escort officer during Homecoming.
Semper Fi.
Marv
RobbelothE
the video HANOI HILTON. You will gain valuable new insight into exactly what
the Vietnam POWs went through. Then you will be able to fairly evaluate Senator
McCain and all his fellow POWs. (The film had several former POWs as technical
and, according to the press at the time, at least one had a flash back to his
time in prison due to the realism of the set.)
Those of us who were there and spared that ordeal cannot help but wonder if we
had "the right stuff" to survive the ordeal. God willing, we will never have to
find out. I, for one, am grateful for their service and thank God that I was
not one of their number.
Ed Robbeloth
125+ combat missions in Southeast Asia
sam...@my-deja.com
McCain's radio broadcast "was in response to a plea by Defense
Secretary Melvin S. Laird, May 19, that North Vietnam treat prisoners
according to the humanitarian standards set forth by the Geneva
Convention."
By making the broadcast for the North Vietnamese praising his "medical
treatment," did McCain hurt the U.S. effort to force the North
Vietnamese t treat POWs better?
>>>Consisting of six articles in simple language, the United States
Military Code of Conduct orders American military personnel to resist
capture at all cost and if captured; to attempt to escape, to give the
enemy no information other than name, rank, serial number and date of
birth, to take charge if senior, to obey orders of the seniors, to
accept no favors from the enemy and to make no written or oral
statements disloyal to the United States.
June 1969 – "Reds Say PW Songbird Is Pilot Son of Admiral
. . . Hanoi has aired a broadcast in which the pilot son of United
States Commander in the Pacific, Adm. John McCain, purportedly admits
to having bombed civilian targets in North Vietnam and praises medical
treatment he has received since being taken prisoner." New York Daily
News, June 5, 1969
"The English-Language broadcast beamed at South Vietnam was one of a
series using American prisoners. It was in response to a plea by
Defense Secretary Melvin S. Laird, May 19, that North Vietnam treat
prisoners according to the humanitarian standards set forth by the
Geneva Convention." The Washington Post - June 5, 1969
In article
<ADCA26EC681A9CB3.49B70FC5...@lp.airnews.net>,
BUFDRVR
>medical treatment:
First of all, the Code of Conduct was *very* inflexible prior to and during the
Vietnam War. The only information one was legally allowed to give was "the big
three" and aircrew were not trained how to resist interogations. Second, what
kind of information did McCain give ? Did he tell them anything useful ? Did he
he tell them anything truthful ? Without those answers it impossible to judge.
For what its worth, the guys taken prisoner during the Vietnam War were in a
daily battle they were not trained for. Because of their experience, the USAF
has an outstanding course for all aircrew that includes a few days as a POW
(fun,fun,fun).
BUFDRVR
"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"
sam...@my-deja.com
>>>>>Author: Ragnar (no, not THE Ragnar) rwo...@earthlink.net>
>>>>I bet that the author (Sampley) of this post has never been a POW,
not attended service-connected POW training, and has never even been in
the military. In short, a wanna-be with an axe to grind.>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
Ted Sampley
Publisher,
U.S. Veteran Dispatch
Ted Sampley joined the Army in 1963 when he was seventeen years old. He
went through Basic Training, Advanced Infantry Training and Airborne
School.
In June 1964, he was assigned to the 173rd Airborne Brigade on the
island of Okinawa.
On May 5,1965, Sampley was deployed to Vietnam with the 173rd, where he
served in a combat unit until April 1966. He participated in combat
operations in the Iron Triangle, War Zone D, Ben Cat, the Ho Bo Woods
and other areas of South Vietnam.
In 1969, after being trained as a Green Beret, Sampley was reassigned
to 5th Special Forces Group, Vietnam.
In Vietnam Staff Sergeant Sampley served in the B-36 Mike Force, as a
company commander of a CIDG company, operating mostly along the
Cambodian border.
During that year of combat service, Sampley was awarded four Bronze
Stars, the Army Commendation Medal and the Vietnamese Cross of
Gallantry.
In 1970, Sampley was reassigned to the 3rd Special Forces Group at Fort
Bragg where he continued his military training.
Sampley's training in the Army included Operations and Intelligence,
methods of prisoner of war interrogation, escape and evasion training,
gorilla warfare training, understanding, the Viet Cong infrastructure,
High Altitude Low Opening (HALO) parachuting and he had a working
knowledge of two languages, Arabic and Japanese.
While in Special Forces, (1968) Sampley was one of a handful of
American soldiers chosen to attend the British Jungle Warfare School in
Malaysia. Sampley was trained for eight weeks by British, Australian
and New Zealand instructors in the "art of jungle warfare," including
methods of visually tracking humans in the jungle. While in Malaysia
Sampley was required to wear British uniform because the British did
not want to publicize that they were training U.S. soldiers to fight in
Vietnam.
From 1971 to 1973,. Sampley worked during his off-duty time as a
volunteer for Americans Who Care, a POW/MIA group in Fayetteville,
N.C., that was lobbing for the safe return of all U.S. POWs held by the
communists in North Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia.
After 10 years of service, Sampley left the Army with a Honorable
Discharge in 1973.
In 1983, after he became aware that Hanoi had not released all living
American POWs in 1973, Sampley became re-involved as a POW/MIA activist
demanding for the U.S. government to put more pressure on Hanoi to
either release the men or explain what happened to them.
He has led many demonstrations in Washington, D.C demanding that both
the U.S. and Vietnamese governments account for the missing in action.
In October of 1988, Sampley led a group of activists into communist
Laos, where they handed out leaflets offering a reward for missing U.S.
servicemen. Two of the group were captured by the communists and held
for 41 days. Sampley was detained by Thai authorities for crossing back
into Thailand from Laos.
He is publisher and editor of the U.S. Veteran Dispatch and chairman of
the Last Firebase Veterans Archives Project. That group has one of the
largest collections of privately held POW/MIA files. It also keeps a 24-
hour vigil for POW's and MIAs in front of the Lincoln Memorial.
Sampley testified in 1991 before the Senate Select Committee of POW/MIA
Affairs.
In December 1992, he published an article headlined "McCain, The
Manchurian Candidate" in which he questioned Sen. John McCain's
behavior while a prisoner of the North Vietnamese.
Sampley first broke the story in the July 1994 issue of the U.S.
Veteran Dispatch that the Unknown Soldier for Vietnam War was Air Force
Lt. Michael Blassie. In 1999, the U.S. government, pressured by CBS
television holding information supplied by Sampley, finally used a DNA
sample and acknowledged that the Unknown Soldier was indeed Lt. Blassie.
Sampley was named Veteran of the Year by VietNow, a national veteran's
organization. He is president of Sampley Enterprises, a for profit
corporation in North Carolina.
Sampley can be reached at 252-527-0442 during duty hours or email at:
us...@icomnet.com
In article <861lid$1c4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
sam...@my-deja.com wrote:
> John McCain Is No "Hero POW Resister"
> He seriously violated the Military Code of Conduct by trading
"military
> information" and making public statements that appeared favorable to
> the communist war effort in exchange for "special treatment."
> Ted Sampley
> For more, go to: U.S. Veteran Dispatch:
> http://www.usvetdsp.com/main.shtml
>
R Dean
> A hero is a person who risks his life for a noble cause. It is
> the willing acceptance of risk that make a hero and not the
> spotlight that may or may not fall upon him. Public acclimation
> does make a person a hero.
>
A hero to me is anyone who puts himself square in the path of danger for the
good of his family, friends and country. I can't imagine what it must be
like to strap a jet on, and wonder if you'll come home alive. I think that
takes guts no matter how confident you are in your skills. Mr. McCain did
fine in my book, but that doesn't make him President. Though, I can't
imagine him doing any worse than the goof ball we have now.
Roberto Dean
ArtKramr
>From: "R Dean" rde...@home.com
>Date: Wed, 19 January 2000 12:55 AM EST
>Message-id: <8lch4.369$IF5....@news.rdc1.il.home.com>
never did anything heroic. I just did what I was trained to do. In fact, we all
did just that. I never met a hero, although I am sure there were plenty of
them. We all just flew our missions. That was it. I don't think of myself as a
hero for just flying the missions. At least not in the sense that Audie Murphy
was a hero, or anything near that.
F/O Arthur Kramer
344th Bomb Group, 9th Air Force
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
R Dean
Until they've been one themselves,
> they have no right to question the performance of someone like McCain.
I respectfully disagree with the above statement Randy. Freedom of speech is
one of the things I swore to protect. One thing though, Mr. Lentz better be
DAMN good and ready for the return volley. God I love this country!!
Msg. Roberto Dean
115 FW Truax Filed Madison, WI
Gordon
>I did say, and I do say, that some in McCain situation suffered
>more than McCain and resisted more.
>
>medical treatment:
>
>the hospital."
>
>-U.S. News and World Report, May 14, 1973 article written by
>former POW John McCain.
>
>
Ok, how about if someone breaks a few of your bones and then waits to see how
long you can take the pain? Not having been a POW, I think questioning his
ability to resist is like saying that the Sioux didn't resist the US to the
best of their ability -- You don't know what he was enduring at that time so
you are not exactly a qualified judge.
v/r
Gordon
p_...@my-deja.com
Given his talks and suggestions on TV I am
not surprised at all. In addition he is very
stuipid personaly. Although Mr. Bush is not
better in this respect. I hope Mr. Gore
will be the next president. At least he is
not looking as an idiot.
Michael
H.E.C
"R Dean" <rde...@home.com> wrote in message
news:6Qch4.376$IF5....@news.rdc1.il.home.com...
Okay, then replace "right" with "credibility" and I think you'll have the
author's intended meaning.
Ralph Savelsberg
I hate to tell you, but Vladimir Putin does not seem to be the most
charismatic or intelligent looking person either, let alone Boris
Yeltsin.
Ralph
Ragnar (no, not THE Ragnar)
sam...@my-deja.com wrote:
Long job-searching resume snipped.
OK, so I was mistaken about the never been in the military or been to POW
training part. But I still note that you have not it fact ever been a POW.
Walk a mile in a POW's sandals and maybe you'll have a point.
Ed Rasimus
>First of all, the Code of Conduct was *very* inflexible prior to and during the
>Vietnam War. The only information one was legally allowed to give was "the big
>three" and aircrew were not trained how to resist interogations.
Actually, no. To both sentences above. We (aircrews) were all trained.
Anyone in an operational flying assignment was required to attend
global survival school. Until 1965 it was at Stead AFB, then moved to
Fairchild. When I went in '65 (last class on the long Autumn trek at
Stead) the resistance training was a three day exercise including both
Cold War (isolation and interrogation) and hot war--Stalag-style
compound imprisonment.
The "policy" developed from the Korean War--which fostered the
establishment of the Code--was to resist to the maximum extent
possible. To delay, to mislead, to prevaricate as necessary. Even then
it recognized that a determined and unrestrained interrogator will
break virtually everyone or kill you. It was acknowledged that there
was no need to be killed.
>Second, what
>kind of information did McCain give ? Did he tell them anything useful ? Did he
>he tell them anything truthful ? Without those answers it impossible to judge.
>For what its worth, the guys taken prisoner during the Vietnam War were in a
>daily battle they were not trained for. Because of their experience, the USAF
>has an outstanding course for all aircrew that includes a few days as a POW
>(fun,fun,fun).
There was also a second, supplemental course, which pessimistically
recognized that a certain percentage would be captured. This three-day
add-on was the source of the often described "tap" code.
It should be noted that this thread has mentioned MOH winner Lance
Sijan as the model for resistance. Sijan isn't here to testify about
John McCain, but two other ex-POWs are. Both Bud Day and Leo Thorsness
have debunked the Sampley comments.
Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
*** Ziff-Davis Interactive
*** (http://www.zdnet.com)
Ed Rasimus
>"Trivial?"
>McCain's radio broadcast "was in response to a plea by Defense
>Secretary Melvin S. Laird, May 19, that North Vietnam treat prisoners
>according to the humanitarian standards set forth by the Geneva
>Convention."
>
>By making the broadcast for the North Vietnamese praising his "medical
>treatment," did McCain hurt the U.S. effort to force the North
>Vietnamese t treat POWs better?
A reading of many of the POW books will reveal that virtually all of
them--Risner, Dramesi, Day, Denton, Guarino, et. al. eventually
complied. The heroism was in turning around the next day or the next
week and continuing to resist. The hypocrisy would be in rewriting the
events to make themselves look good after the fact. None of done that,
and certainly not McCain.
And, now scumbag, would you tell us a bit about yourself, your
military and combat experience and your qualifications to make these
judgements. Oh, I didn't think so.
BUFDRVR
Really ? That's not what they tell us at Survival. They maintain the course was
set up following the Vietnam War because of feedback the USAF recieved from
returning POW's who claimed they were not trained to resist.
>The "policy" developed from the Korean War--which fostered the
>establishment of the Code--was to resist to the maximum extent
>possible. To delay, to mislead, to prevaricate as necessary.
Once again, according to the guys (and a few gals) teaching up at Fairchild,
the Code was rather inflexible prior to 1975. Words like "to the best of your
ability" were not included until the returning POW's from NV insisted that
flexibility be added.
p_...@my-deja.com
a disaster for the country. However Putin is not. He always
speak very intelligently and balancely. His sense of
humor is perfect in my taste. He perfectly speaks not only
good Russian (that was problem for Yelcin and
Chernomyrdin) but also German and English, although
unlike many prowestern polititians he dislikes to demonstate
it in public. The only drawback he has that cannot be fixed
is that he is a bit shorter than nessesary. But Napoleon was
also quite short, wasn't he? We will see soon whether Putin
can become todays Napoleon of Russia. I feel he has more
than enough charisma for this.
sam...@my-deja.com
President Clinon or any president if he or she has never been president.
In any case, here is what some of McCains peers have to say about him.
A "Flying Squad" Of Returned POWs Protecting McCain's Image
By Major Mark A. Smith
United States Army Retired
Former POW (Vietnam)
Army Green Beret Captain Mark Smith was captured April 7, 1972 during a
heated battle with the North Vietnamese in South Vietnam. Smith was
held in a bamboo cage until he was freed during the general POW release
in 1973.
In my opinion, there are no "sacred cows" when it comes to the office
of the President of the United States of America. At this point, there
is a "flying squad" of returned POWs from the Vietnam War protecting
the image of Senator John S. McCain. One can but wonder why Senator
McCain would require such a team. He is not under attack or even
serious scrutiny by the "liberal media." TV commentators who usually
attack anyone who shows a less than pristine bent for the most part are
mum on the Arizona senator.
My concerns are simple. I believe that any and all of the intelligence
held by U.S. Government agencies on Senator McCain's time as a POW must
be made available to the media and public. There is too much danger of
a President being held hostage by things in the files of Intelligence
agencies and, even more dangerous, held in the files of foreign
governments in Asia and Europe.
My intentions have nothing to do with any feelings I may harbor toward
John McCain personally. I have none. My intentions in all of this have
to do with him professionally.
They have to do with his treatment of [North Vietnamese Army Colonel]
Bui Tin, who I consider nothing more than a "sent agent." They have to
do with his simplistic attitude toward the issue of MIAs and his
utterly vile behavior toward those who disagree with him, including
POW/MIA family members.
Lastly, I feel for any of the "Keating Five" to have the audacity to
make "Campaign Reform" the cornerstone of his platform is the height of
hypocrisy. He took the money right along with the others. To claim he
did not know is not the type of answer one who aspires to be President
should give in my opinion. He was responsible but, he did everything in
his power to shift the blame. He sounded too much like Clinton for me.
He disappointed me in that.
I don't care if he has a temper unless he decides to vent it on an
aging MIA mother, and he did just that. I can't forgive that and no one
else should. MIAs? I wrote then-Congressman McCain while still in the
Army, from Korea, about the MIAs. Senator Denton wrote to me
encouraging me to trust the Government. I didn't like the answer, but I
got an answer from Senator Denton. My letter to McCain was answered by
DIA. I wrote to him as one of the few POWs the Communists returned
along with himself, and he checked nothing. So much for John's concern
about MIAs.
A friend of mine was with Admiral McCain when he came to meet his son
upon his return to U.S. control. When he reminded Senator McCain of
this, John responded with a tirade and claimed that he received no
"special treatment" and even denied his father was there. I'm sorry,
but that was just a lie.
There was deep concern among the intelligence community about John
McCain. His interviews and statements from Hanoi and pictures of him in
an actual hospital gave great worries to many, including Bill Colby
himself. His hero image was not nearly as solid in 1973 as it is now.
That may have been wrong, but it was a fact.
I don't know why John did many of the things he did in captivity and
since, but I do know that none of this is off limits, when it concerns
someone running for President.
Andrew Jackson was a war hero and he and his wife endured terrible
rumors, innuendo and the washing of dirty laundry. If "Ole Hickory" was
not immune, someone captured by the enemy also is not.
Some are issuing damning statements about Senator McCain, which I have
never seen anything to justify. Unless there are verifiable facts to
back them up, these people should shut up. Most importantly, Vietnam
Veterans have some serious questions to ask about which the media seems
too timid to even venture a query. These must be answered and answered
now.
Lastly, for returned POWs to stand up and say that no MIAs could have
been alive after 1973 "Because we knew everyone in the system," is a
self-serving lie and has no place in the utterances of honorable men.
If they truly do not know better, they should support their candidate
and keep their mouths shut about MIAs. They know nothing of remains
still reaking of decay long after the war, nor have they ever been in
the arena of which they try to speak as "experts." All of this to
support a political candidate for President? That is what McCain is and
the leadership of our nation is too important to take anyone's word on
a candidate.
After all, there is a large segment of time when none of these POWs
were with McCain in Hanoi. To state or even insinuate otherwise is to
lie and that is unacceptable, even if one believes all that John now
says.
Like I have said in the past, I hope John is everything that he claims
to be, but that does not excuse giving military intelligence to the
enemy, his supposed "open mind" on MIAs, his treatment of MIA family
members, or his attacks on [former Marine POW] PFC Garwood, a man he
never heard of as a POW.
Perhaps he could address why all those boys in Hanoi were on the radio
I had to listen to in 1972-73 and none were being tortured. Contrary to
the carefully contrived belief within the media, the vast majority that
I heard were "highly trained and disciplined pilots" and not a bunch of
"Army and Marine" enlisted men.
I find it totally unprofessional, for professional military men to
attack people who have legitimate questions about a political candidate
regardless of who he is or who his father was. I find many things said
about Senator McCain to be unsavory and with out merit.
Those things are easily dealt with by John's campaign staff. His
friends have every right to defend him on these things, but they have
no right to issue blanket statements about McCain's captivity unless
they were with him all the way. They were not unless his claim of
isolation is a fabrication.
One would hope the same people are more accurate in their description
of McCain than they were in their totally meritless claim of "knowing
everyone in the system." This is a self-serving lie and a totally
dishonorable one at that. You knew? You knew nothing!
In closing, let me say this. The very insinuation that anyone who
challenges John McCain is a lesser person in the returned POW community
is so much bunk.
This is political, pure and simple. John must be judged as a candidate
for President, on what his past actions truly were. Where he has stood
on the issues as a politician are open to scrutiny and he is also
certainly allowed his defenders.
However, to put out totally inaccurate statements about what the POWs
in Hanoi knew about who was a POW and who was not, and who collaborated
and who did not, while ignoring the dishonorable actions of those let
back into the fold in the last minutes of captivity, has no merit.
We are talking about the leadership of the Nation, and I and others
have serious questions about McCain's suitability for that position. We
are allowed to have these positions and there is no requirement based
on honor that requires us to remain mum.
Furthermore, there is no challenge as to our right to be judged on our
performance on the battlefield or in prison. I welcome anyone to debate
me on my performance in either scenario and I find the insinuation that
we in the jungle somehow suffered less or served with less honor to be
not only professionally and historically reprehensible, but, also
laughable.
Perhaps some in our number learned the value of propaganda a little too
well during our captivity.
I will not be steam rolled by a "flying squad" of propagandists. I want
some damned answers, not another self-serving book that builds the
images and egos of my high-flying compatriots from Hanoi.
******
Former POWs Say They "Doubted" Reds Tortured McCain
Two former POWs, Air Force Colonels Ted Guy and Gordon "Swede" Larson,
said in a March 25, 1999, Phoenix New Times feature article that while
they could not guarantee that McCain was not physically harmed, they
doubted it. Both Guy and Larson were senior ranking officers (SRO's) in
McCain's POW camp at a time he claims he was in solitary confinement
and being tortured. Larson told the New Times, "Between the two of us,
it's our belief, and to the best of our knowledge, that no prisoner was
beaten or harmed physically in that camp [known as 荘The Plantation'].
"My only contention with the McCain deal is that while he was at The
Plantation, to the best of my knowledge and Ted's knowledge, he was not
physically abused in any way. No one was in that camp. It was the camp
that people were released from." *******
*******
John McCain Is No Hero
By Former POW Mike Benge
I was a civilian POW in Vietnam from 1968-73, and held in South Viet
Nam, Cambodia, Laos and North Viet Nam. I spent 27 months in solitary
confinement, of which most of a year was in a black box (a brick SH
with the inside walls painted black), and one year in a cage.
After release in Operation Homecoming in 1973, I was often asked about
the conduct of other POWs. My response then, as it is today, is that
each man has his own breaking point.
As the old saying goes, "Don't judge another `till you've walked a mile
in their moccasins."
After our return, at times I was called a hero. My answer then, as it
is today, is that we, the returned POWs, are not heroes; we are just
survivors.
The heroes are the ones who gave their all, and their names are etched
on that somber black granite wall called the Vietnam Memorial. The
heroes are those who never came home and are still POWs in some God
forsaken hole. The heroes are the ones who lost part of their bodies
from the ravages of war. The heroes are those that still suffer from
the horrors of war. The heroes are the mothers, the wives, the children
or families who still wait to find out the fate of their love ones.
No we are not the heroes, we are just survivors.
Is John McCain a hero?
No he is just a survivor like the rest of us. I respect John for the
pain and suffering he went through as a POW. I respect John, as I do
the other POWs, for surviving the depravity of incarceration by the
brutal communist Vietnamese.
Is John McCain a hero because he made the moral choice not to take an
early release?
No, John McCain is not a hero for doing this for he was just following
orders from the Senior Ranking Officers (SROs) in the camp. John was
doing no more, nor no less, that every service person does several
times each day. He was just following orders.
For those of you who have seen the movie about the POWs "Return with
Honor," at the beginning you would have heard the SROs state that they
gave the order that no one was to take an early release.
John McCain is not a hero for making that choice, for he was just
following orders. John McCain is no more of a hero that the rest of the
POWs who stayed to the last, and were released in 1973. I salute and
have a special reverence in my heart for those POWs who were Medal of
Honor recipients, as I do for my former SRO Col. Ted Guy who resisted
to the last, for they are much, much closer to being my kind of heroes
than JSM
Andy Bush
Rasimus is correct. Your sources are wrong.
I went thru the school too...back then.
David Lentz
R Dean wrote:
>
> Until they've been one themselves,
> > they have no right to question the performance of someone like McCain.
>
> I respectfully disagree with the above statement Randy. Freedom of speech is
> one of the things I swore to protect. One thing though, Mr. Lentz better be
> DAMN good and ready for the return volley. God I love this country!!
>
> Msg. Roberto Dean
> 115 FW Truax Filed Madison, WI
What I am trying to do, is to raise questions in regards to John
McCain without making an accusation. I recognize and respect the
fact that McCain was willing to strap on a jet and fly into
harm's way. He deserves nothing but honor for that. For
example, I respect George McGovern for flying Liberators. Still
think he is a kook. The airman has always taken a bigger risk
and there should be special respect accorded to him.
McCain's conduct as a POW is not above reproach. However it may
well be understandable in light of the circumstances. I can't
ascertain how typical McCain's conduct was. It would seem to be
an appropriate question.
McCain is seeking to be President. Any citizen has a right to
question a Presidential candidate about anything.
David
Jeff Crowell
Ed Rasimus wrote:
>Actually, no. To both sentences above. We (aircrews) were all trained.
>global survival school. Until 1965 it was at Stead AFB, then moved to
>Fairchild. When I went in '65 (last class on the long Autumn trek at
>Stead) the resistance training was a three day exercise including both
>Cold War (isolation and interrogation) and hot war--Stalag-style
>compound imprisonment.
>
>establishment of the Code--was to resist to the maximum extent
>it recognized that a determined and unrestrained interrogator will
>break virtually everyone or kill you. It was acknowledged that there
>was no need to be killed.
If I may presume to add on to Ed's comments, one of the critical
pieces of information discovered from the Korean-era torturing and
breaking of US servicemen (my apologies for the terrible syntax) was
the destructive moral effect of having been broken on the men in
question.
That is, they had been taught that they must never give any
information away to the enemy. Nada. So when
they were broken, as any man or woman can be, they broke
completely, never to resist again. The experience shattered
their will to resist. So a new code of conduct was developed.
As a Midshipman at USNA, I was privileged (beyond my ability
to communicate) to meet a number of Navy officers who had
been imprisoned and tortured by the North Vietnamese. CAPT.
Ron Fellows, ADM Stockdale, Jeremiah Denton (I can't recall his
rank), and ADM Lawrence are names that come to mind
immediately. Without exception, they all said that they broke.
Each was able to resist to the best of his ability for only so long.
Each was at times able to give false information when they broke
(sometimes the falseness was discovered, which led to more
torture). Sometimes they gave true information, in many cases
simple information which they knew the enemy already knew.
The purpose of the training that all US combat aircrew go through
is to teach these people that they can, and will, be broken if the
enemy cares to do so. The root of the training is to teach that
they can choose to resist even after they have been broken.
Personally, I will vote for John McCain if he receives the nomination.
Jeff
Mike Kopack
the NY Daily News clearly states? Do you know Mladen and Eni here in the
newsgroup? If not I believe you'd get along swell together...
Mike
sam...@my-deja.com wrote:
> June 1969 – "Reds Say PW Songbird Is Pilot Son of Admiral
> . . . Hanoi has aired a broadcast in which the pilot son of United
> States Commander in the Pacific, Adm. John McCain, purportedly admits
> to having bombed civilian targets in North Vietnam and praises medical
> treatment he has received since being taken prisoner." New York Daily
> News, June 5, 1969
>
> "The English-Language broadcast beamed at South Vietnam was one of a
> series using American prisoners. It was in response to a plea by
> Defense Secretary Melvin S. Laird, May 19, that North Vietnam treat
> prisoners according to the humanitarian standards set forth by the
Dick Latshaw
thu...@rmii.com (Ed Rasimus) wrote:
> Anyone in an operational flying assignment was required to attend
> global survival school. Until 1965 it was at Stead AFB, then moved to
> Fairchild. When I went in '65 (last class on the long Autumn trek at
> Stead) the resistance training was a three day exercise including both
> Cold War (isolation and interrogation) and hot war--Stalag-style
> compound imprisonment.
The resistance training format was the same when I went through in
December of 1960. (Wow, that's a long time ago!) Stead was loads of
fun, including the 'heated' pool with chunks of ice floating in it.
--
Regards,
Dick
Michael P. Reed
> In article <861lid$1c4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> sam...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> I hope Mr. Gore
> will be the next president. At least he is
> not looking as an idiot.
Of course not. After all he DID invent the internet, had "A Love Story"
based on him and his wife, discovered Love Canal. . .
--
Regards,
Michael P. Reed
Regnirps
>> A hero is a person who risks his life for a noble cause. It is
>> the willing acceptance of risk that make a hero and not the
>> spotlight that may or may not fall upon him. Public acclimation
>> does make a person a hero.
>> David
>A hero to me is anyone who puts himself square in the path of danger for the
>good of his family, friends and country. I can't imagine what it must be
>like to strap a jet on, and wonder if you'll come home alive. I think that
>takes guts no matter how confident you are in your skills. Mr. McCain did
>fine in my book, but that doesn't make him President. Though, I can't
>imagine him doing any worse than the goof ball we have now.
The word "hero" is thrown around pretty lightly these days. Traditionaly a
'thero' is someone acclaimed by his peers for bravery and honor and rage in
battle. A hero is not selected by the general population or the mayor or news
reporters, but by his fellows. I prefer this definition.
If you want something that honors a person by popular acclaim you throw them a
triumph, or ticker tape parade in the modern USA.
As for McCain's standing as a hero, that is up to his fellow pilots and
shipmates and prisoners to decide. If you ask him, he will likely say that the
fellows who helped him out of the fire and then were killed when the bombs
cooked off were heros.
Charlie Springer
Regnirps
>Until they've been one themselves,
>> they have no right to question the performance of someone like McCain.
>I respectfully disagree with the above statement Randy. Freedom of speech is
>one of the things I swore to protect. One thing though, Mr. Lentz better be
>DAMN good and ready for the return volley. God I love this country!!
I agree with Robert Heinlein (retired naval gunnery officer) that everyone is
entitled to an opinion unless they say it out loud, in which case it better be
a fact.
Charlie Springer
Regnirps
>Using your way of thinking, no one can question the actions of
>President Clinon or any president if he or she has never been president.
>In any case, here is what some of McCains peers have to say about him.
>
>A "Flying Squad" Of Returned POWs Protecting McCain's Image
>
>By Major Mark A. Smith
>United States Army Retired
>Former POW (Vietnam)
snip diatribe
I just can't get excited by the actions of anyone as severly injured when taken
prisoner. You are obviously a tough strong guy and have had a ton of training
and experience. You can rightly be proud of all that, but do you know what if
feels like when your limbs are broken, insides are bruised and delicate and
your brain is concussed?
I once felt invulnerable and able to withstand these things, that is until I
woke up once hanging in a tree with various dislocated members and dried blood
here and there and movement produced so much pain I passed out. My how my
perspective changed! Everyone handles these things differently and that is
accepted today to a greater extent. We understand the Stockholm syndrome and
try not to blame those affected.
I have no doubt that in McCain's situation I would have simply died, where you
may have thrived. We just can't all be Rambos. The rules in Desert Storm
reflected this reality.
Charlie Springer
Regnirps
>In article <861lid$1c4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> sam...@my-deja.com wrote:
>Given his talks and suggestions on TV I am
>not surprised at all. In addition he is very
>stuipid personaly. Although Mr. Bush is not
>better in this respect. I hope Mr. Gore
>will be the next president. At least he is
>not looking as an idiot.
>Michael
Damn right! Go Al! How could someone who invented the internet, was the model
for "Love Story", wants us all in electric cars, and was raised on a farm
sloping hogs, choping tobacco and mowing hay (all from a hotel in D.C) be an
idiot?
Charlie Springer
Stephen Harding
> it in public. The only drawback he has that cannot be fixed
> is that he is a bit shorter than nessesary. But Napoleon was
> also quite short, wasn't he? We will see soon whether Putin
> can become todays Napoleon of Russia. I feel he has more
> than enough charisma for this.
Does this mean he's going to be putting Russian troops in
neighboring countries, just like Napoleon did with French?
Got to make some countries in Eastern Europe a bit nervous!
SMH
str...@hotmail.com
> McCain's conduct as a POW is not above reproach. However it may
> well be understandable in light of the circumstances. I can't
> ascertain how typical McCain's conduct was. It would seem to be
> an appropriate question.
>
> McCain is seeking to be President. Any citizen has a right to
> question a Presidential candidate about anything.
The post that we're all talking about does more than just question Sen
McCain's behavior. I agree that anyone has the *right* to make
whatever claims...that's what free speech is all about. But saying
that McCain's conduct was "questionable" and that he "could have
resisted more" is ignorant and without credibility. He wasn't
questioned *about* his conduct; he was *accused* of a certain conduct.
Completely different.
Randy Haskin
str...@ix.netcom.com
jtarver
Regnirps <regn...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000119145549...@ng-fb1.aol.com...
You got me, that is one mighty impressive resume'.
John
gj bart
>March 15, 1973 McCain was released from the Hanoi Hilton and returned
>to the United States.
>The Late Fall, 1974 - McCain returned to Vietnam with a delegation of
>officials as guests of the South Vietnamese government to celebrate the
>Republic of Vietnam's National Day. South Vietnam's president, Nguyen
>Van Thieu, had invited representatives of major U.S. veterans
>organizations and several POW's including McCain to honor the sacrifice
>of U.S. veterans "for the South Vietnamese cause."
>At a reception, the host, one of President Thieu's closest aides, told
>the visiting U.S. veterans that he and the president would do anything
>they could to make sure members of the delegation could meet anyone
>they wanted or go anywhere they wanted to go.
>McCain, still a United States Navy officer stuck up his hand and said
>he wanted to visit Con Son Island. The request stunned the host and the
>rest of the delegation. Con Son, located fifty miles off the southern
>coast was the "site of South Vietnam's toughest prison, where the most
>dangerous suspected communist and other prisoners were kept."
>Four years before, in 1970, American anti-war activist Don Luce, had
>led a U.S. congressional delegation to the prison island to publicize
>South Vietnam's holding of prisoners in cells that became infamous as
>South Vietnam's prisoner "tiger cages."
Is this part true? If so, I think it says a great deal for McCain's
basic compassion and courage to do what he perceives is the "right thing."
>As a result of the Luce delegation trip to Con Son Island, the
>communist Vietnamese had gained an international propaganda bonanza
>against the U.S. war effort in Vietnam.
So when "their side" does it then it's unspeakable human depravity,
but when "our side" does it then it's all vicious lies and inconvenient
propaganda? Or could it be, just maybe, having experienced depravity
first hand made McCain want to put a stop to it wherever he found it?
Again, is this anecdote actually true?
gj
>McCain's hosts were extremely uncomfortable with McCain's request, but
>he kept pressing. A visit for McCain to Con Son was arranged for the
>last day before the groups departure.
>McCain visited the Con Son prison and interrogated camp officials about
>the conditions in the prison.
>Some where between Con Son and the mainland McCain decided not to make
>an issue of the conditions in the prison. He did not speak on the
>record for reporters waiting to hear what he had to say.
Mary Shafer
Nonsense. Who's going to stop someone from voicing an opinion? You
and what army?
Can you prove that it's a fact that everyone is entitled to
an opinion unless they say it out loud, in which case it better be a
fact or are you just giving us your opinion?
Everyone in the US is completely entitled to express fact, opinions,
lies, falsehoods, incorrect information, fantasy, stupid remarks, bad
jokes, and foolishness at any time, within the limits of slandar and
public safety. And that _is_ a fact.
--
Mary Shafer http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html
sha...@rigel.dfrc.nasa.gov Of course I don't speak for NASA
Lead Handling Qualities Engineer, SR-71/LASRE
NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, CA
For non-aerospace mail, use sha...@ursa-major.spdcc.com please
Regnirps
>regn...@aol.com (Regnirps) writes:
>> I agree with Robert Heinlein (retired naval gunnery officer) that
>> everyone is entitled to an opinion unless they say it out loud, in
>> which case it better be a fact.
>Nonsense. Who's going to stop someone from voicing an opinion? You
>and what army?
>Can you prove that it's a fact that everyone is entitled to
>an opinion unless they say it out loud, in which case it better be a
>fact or are you just giving us your opinion?
>Everyone in the US is completely entitled to express fact, opinions,
>lies, falsehoods, incorrect information, fantasy, stupid remarks, bad
>jokes, and foolishness at any time, within the limits of slandar and
>public safety. And that _is_ a fact.
True, we don't require rightness and no one stops them, it's just an ideal. The
idea that reason prevents a person from voicing positions they can't support or
prove. (Example: Any interview with Feynmann. Counter example: Any interview
with Sagan) Jokes and gentle conversation don't fall under opinion do they? You
can call something a guess or a hunch or a hypothetical and its conclusion. I
should look up "opinion", maybe it says something like "statements unsuported
by fact".
To see the opposite of this ask a simple fundamental question on the astronomy
NG and read the mass of firmly stated answers, mostly wrong, mostly based on
personal "thought theory".
In Rome at one time rumor mongering was punishable by death because of the
damage it can do -- but then they were hardly perfect in other areas.
Charlie Springer
Buck
Losing that$800,000.00 from your Tee Shirt scam must really be stinging.
John McCain will never be president, but not because of your efforts you
coward!
Buck
sam...@my-deja.com wrote in message <863jk5$flb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>
>>>>>>Author: Ragnar (no, not THE Ragnar) rwo...@earthlink.net>
> >>>>I bet that the author (Sampley) of this post has never been a POW,
>not attended service-connected POW training, and has never even been in
>the military. In short, a wanna-be with an axe to grind.>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>
>Ted Sampley
>Publisher,
>U.S. Veteran Dispatch
>Ted Sampley joined the Army in 1963 when he was seventeen years old. He
>went through Basic Training, Advanced Infantry Training and Airborne
>School.
>
>In June 1964, he was assigned to the 173rd Airborne Brigade on the
>island of Okinawa.
>
>On May 5,1965, Sampley was deployed to Vietnam with the 173rd, where he
>served in a combat unit until April 1966. He participated in combat
>operations in the Iron Triangle, War Zone D, Ben Cat, the Ho Bo Woods
>and other areas of South Vietnam.
>
>In 1969, after being trained as a Green Beret, Sampley was reassigned
>to 5th Special Forces Group, Vietnam.
>
>In Vietnam Staff Sergeant Sampley served in the B-36 Mike Force, as a
>company commander of a CIDG company, operating mostly along the
>Cambodian border.
>
>During that year of combat service, Sampley was awarded four Bronze
>Stars, the Army Commendation Medal and the Vietnamese Cross of
>Gallantry.
>
>In 1970, Sampley was reassigned to the 3rd Special Forces Group at Fort
>Bragg where he continued his military training.
>
>Sampley's training in the Army included Operations and Intelligence,
>methods of prisoner of war interrogation, escape and evasion training,
>gorilla warfare training, understanding, the Viet Cong infrastructure,
>High Altitude Low Opening (HALO) parachuting and he had a working
>knowledge of two languages, Arabic and Japanese.
>
>While in Special Forces, (1968) Sampley was one of a handful of
>American soldiers chosen to attend the British Jungle Warfare School in
>Malaysia. Sampley was trained for eight weeks by British, Australian
>and New Zealand instructors in the "art of jungle warfare," including
>methods of visually tracking humans in the jungle. While in Malaysia
>Sampley was required to wear British uniform because the British did
>not want to publicize that they were training U.S. soldiers to fight in
>Vietnam.
>
>From 1971 to 1973,. Sampley worked during his off-duty time as a
>volunteer for Americans Who Care, a POW/MIA group in Fayetteville,
>N.C., that was lobbing for the safe return of all U.S. POWs held by the
>communists in North Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia.
>
>After 10 years of service, Sampley left the Army with a Honorable
>Discharge in 1973.
>
>In 1983, after he became aware that Hanoi had not released all living
>American POWs in 1973, Sampley became re-involved as a POW/MIA activist
>demanding for the U.S. government to put more pressure on Hanoi to
>either release the men or explain what happened to them.
>
>He has led many demonstrations in Washington, D.C demanding that both
>the U.S. and Vietnamese governments account for the missing in action.
>
>In October of 1988, Sampley led a group of activists into communist
>Laos, where they handed out leaflets offering a reward for missing U.S.
>servicemen. Two of the group were captured by the communists and held
>for 41 days. Sampley was detained by Thai authorities for crossing back
>into Thailand from Laos.
>
>He is publisher and editor of the U.S. Veteran Dispatch and chairman of
>the Last Firebase Veterans Archives Project. That group has one of the
>largest collections of privately held POW/MIA files. It also keeps a 24-
>hour vigil for POW's and MIAs in front of the Lincoln Memorial.
>
>Sampley testified in 1991 before the Senate Select Committee of POW/MIA
>Affairs.
>
>In December 1992, he published an article headlined "McCain, The
>Manchurian Candidate" in which he questioned Sen. John McCain's
>behavior while a prisoner of the North Vietnamese.
>
>Sampley first broke the story in the July 1994 issue of the U.S.
>Veteran Dispatch that the Unknown Soldier for Vietnam War was Air Force
>Lt. Michael Blassie. In 1999, the U.S. government, pressured by CBS
>television holding information supplied by Sampley, finally used a DNA
>sample and acknowledged that the Unknown Soldier was indeed Lt. Blassie.
>
>Sampley was named Veteran of the Year by VietNow, a national veteran's
>organization. He is president of Sampley Enterprises, a for profit
>corporation in North Carolina.
>
>Sampley can be reached at 252-527-0442 during duty hours or email at:
>us...@icomnet.com
>
>In article <861lid$1c4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> sam...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> John McCain Is No "Hero POW Resister"
>> He seriously violated the Military Code of Conduct by trading
>"military
>> information" and making public statements that appeared favorable to
>> the communist war effort in exchange for "special treatment."
>
>> Ted Sampley
>> For more, go to: U.S. Veteran Dispatch:
>> http://www.usvetdsp.com/main.shtml
Buck
Sampley's little blood sucking schemes are exposed in full.
Sampley is a moral and physical coward, and an ethical pygmy.
I do NOT support McCain's quest for the presidency, and unequivocally state
that he is wrong on many issues.
But I am sick of the attacks on his character by this cretin.
He (Sampley) howls to the moon that it is all a pack of lies, bit knows full
well that if he were to try to disprove ANY accusation made at
WWW.MIAFACTS.ORG against him, he would fail miserably.
It is a simple matter to engage an attorney and sue for defamation of
character. The people exposing his lies are public figures, easily
accessible. But Sampley only pisses and moans about the injustice of it all.
I wonder why he doesn't want his day in court?
Buck
Buck
(Did I get that right?)
Buck
p_...@my-deja.com wrote in message <864745$tcp$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <861lid$1c4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> sam...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>Given his talks and suggestions on TV I am
>not surprised at all. In addition he is very
>stuipid personaly. Although Mr. Bush is not
>better in this respect. I hope Mr. Gore
>will be the next president. At least he is
>not looking as an idiot.
>
>Michael
>
>
>
Mary Shafer
> For the truth of this rat and his campaign, go to WWW.MIAFACTS.ORG .
The actual page of interest is at http://WWW.MIAFACTS.ORG/mccain.htm
and the material about Sampley is toward the bottom. The whole page
is interesting and informative, so read it all, and don't give up
because you don't see anything about Sampley. You will, and it will
sadden you greatly to think that people would, apparently, make money
on the grief and sorrow of those who had friends and family killed or
missing in SEA.
C.D.Damron
that is how it was followed, that is how it was enforced.
Resist until you cannot resist any further. Do not aid the enemy in the
information that you provide. I have heard of more cases of "war crimes"
confessions being signed than aviators providing technical or strategic
information that would put their fellow aviators at risk.
American POW's were surprised that anybody took these "air pirate"
confessions seriously. I think the only folks that used them as propaganda
was our own anti-war protesters and liberal press.
Regards,
C.D. Damron
"We hold that all individuals have the right to exercise
sole dominion over their own lives, and have the right to
live in whatever manner they choose, so long as they do
not forcibly interfere with the equal right of others to
live in whatever manner they choose"
Support the Libertarian Party http://www.lp.org
sam...@my-deja.com wrote in message <861lid$1c4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>John McCain Is No "Hero POW Resister"
>He seriously violated the Military Code of Conduct by trading "military
>information" and making public statements that appeared favorable to
>the communist war effort in exchange for "special treatment."
>
>And after his release in 1973, McCain continued helping the Vietnamese
>communists despite the objections of veterans groups.
>
>Consisting of six articles in simple language, the United States
>Military Code of Conduct orders American military personnel to resist
>capture at all cost and if captured; to attempt to escape, to give the
>enemy no information other than name, rank, serial number and date of
>birth, to take charge if senior, to obey orders of the seniors, to
>accept no favors from the enemy and to make no written or oral
>statements disloyal to the United States.
>
>In the original writing, the Code was declared the definitive code
>specifying the responsibilities of American military personnel while in
>combat or captivity.
>
>The Code holds U.S. prisoners of war responsible to protect--at
>whatever cost--the cause for which the United States stands by
>continuing to carry on some form of resistance with the enemy. The
>establishment of the Code of Conduct was the result of what was
>considered in 1955 an embarrassing high number of U.S. servicemen held
>prisoners during the Korean War who apparently did little to resist
>collaborating with the enemy.
>
>John McCain's Time Line
>
>October 1967 – During his 23rd mission over Vietnam on Oct. 26, 1967,
>Lt. Commander John McCain was shot down by a surface-to-air missile.
>
>After being periodically slapped around for "three or four days" by his
>captors who wanted military information from him, McCain called for an
>officer on his fourth day of captivity. He told the officer, "O.K.,
>I'll give you military information if you will take me to the
>hospital." -U.S. News and World Report, May 14, 1973 article written by
>former POW John McCain
>
>McCain was taken to Gai Lam military hospital. (U.S. government
>documents)
>
>"Demands for military information were accompanied by threats to
>terminate my medical treatment if I [McCain] did not cooperate.
>Eventually, I gave them my ship's name and squadron number, and
>confirmed that my target had been the power plant." Page 193-194, Faith
>of My Fathers by John McCain
>
>November 1967 - Nov. 9, 1967 (U.S. government documents) Hanoi press
>began quoting him giving more specific military information.
>
>One report dated read, "To a question of the correspondent, McCain
>answered: ‘My assignment to the Oriskany, I told myself, was due to
>serious losses in pilots, which were sustained by this aircraft carrier
>(due to its raids on the North Vietnam territory - VNA) and which
>necessitated replacements. From 10 to 12 pilots were transferred like
>me from the Forrestal to the Oriskany. Before I was shot down, we had
>made several sorties. Altogether, I made about 23 flights over North
>Vietnam.'"
>
>In that report, McCain was quoted describing the number of aircraft in
>his flight, information about rescue ships, and the order of which his
>attack was supposed to take place.
>
>Through the Freedom of Information Act, the U.S. Veteran Dispatch
>acquired a declassified Department of Defense (DOD) transcript of an
>interview prominent French television reporter Francois Chalais had
>with McCain.
>
>Chalais told of his private interview with POW McCain in a series
>titled Life in Hanoi, which was aired in Europe. In the series, Chalais
>said his meeting with McCain was "a meeting which will leave its mark
>on my life."
>
>"My meeting with John Sidney McCain was certainly one of those meetings
>which will affect me most profoundly for the rest of my life. I had
>asked the North Vietnamese authorities to allow me to personally
>interrogate an American prisoner. They authorized me to do so. When
>night fell, they took me---without any precautions or mystery--to a
>hospital near the Gia Lam airport reserved for the military. (passage
>omitted) The officer who receives me begins: I ask you not to ask any
>questions of political nature. If this man replies in a way unfavorable
>to us, they will not hesitate to speak of ‘brainwashing' and conclude
>that we threatened him.
>
>"‘This John Sidney McCain is not an ordinary prisoner. His father is
>none other than Admiral Edmond John McCain, commander in chief of U.S.
>naval forces in Europe. (passage omitted)'"
>
>". . . Many visitors came to talk to me [John McCain]. Not all of it
>was for interrogation. Once a famous North Vietnamese writer–an old man
>with a Ho Chi Minh beard–came to my room, wanting to know all about
>Ernest Hemingway . . . Others came to find out about life in the United
>States. They figured because my father had such high military rank that
>I was of the royalty or governing circle . . . One of the men who came
>to see me, whose picture I recognized later, was Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap,
>the hero of Dienbienphu." U.S. News and World Report, May 14, 1973
>article written by former POW John McCain
>
>December 1967 – Vietnamese and possibly Soviet doctors operate (early
>December) on McCain's Leg. Later that month, six weeks after he was
>shot down, McCain was taken from the hospital and delivered to Room No.
>11 of "The Plantation" into the hands of two other U.S. POWs, Air
>Force majors George "Bud" Day and Norris Overly. They helped further
>nurse him along until he was eventually able to walk by himself. --
>Faith of My Fathers by John McCain
>
>January 1968 – A group of "obviously senior" Communist Party members
>visited and McCain talked with them. --Faith of My Fathers by John
>McCain
>
>May 1968 – "In May of 1968, I [McCain] was interviewed by two North
>Vietnamese generals at separate times." U.S. News and World Report, May
>14, 1973 article written by former POW John McCain
>
>July 1968 - McCain claims he was next introduced for the first time to
>the "torture ropes." He said the torture went on for several days
>before he broke and agreed to write and sign a confession that he was a
>"black criminal." McCain said that he was moved to another building
>away from the other POWs. --The Nightingale's Song (No returned POWs
>can confirm McCain's claims of being tortured)
>
>McCain said (page 136) that he was so distraught because he had signed
>the statement that he attempted suicide but was stopped when a guard
>burst into the room. --The Nightingale's Song (No returned POWs can
>confirm McCain's claims of "attempted suicide")
>
>June 1969 – "Reds Say PW Songbird Is Pilot Son of Admiral
> . . . Hanoi has aired a broadcast in which the pilot son of United
>States Commander in the Pacific, Adm. John McCain, purportedly admits
>to having bombed civilian targets in North Vietnam and praises medical
>treatment he has received since being taken prisoner." New York Daily
>News, June 5, 1969
>
>"The English-Language broadcast beamed at South Vietnam was one of a
>series using American prisoners. It was in response to a plea by
>Defense Secretary Melvin S. Laird, May 19, that North Vietnam treat
>prisoners according to the humanitarian standards set forth by the
>Geneva Convention." The Washington Post - June 5, 1969
>
>January 1970– "There was pressure to see American antiwar delegations,
>which seemed to increase as the time went on. But, there wasn't any
>torture. In January 1970, I [McCain] was taken to a quiz with ‘The
>Cat.' He told me that he wanted me to see a foreign guest." U.S. News
>and World Report, May 14, 1973 article written by former POW John McCain
>
>A declassified DOD document reports an interview between POW McCain and
>Dr. Fernando Barral, a Spanish psychiatrist who was living in Cuba at
>the time. The interview was published in the Havana Granma in January
>1970.
>
>According to the DOD report, the meeting between Barral and McCain
>(which was photographed by the Vietnamese) took place away from the
>prison at the office of the Committee for Foreign Cultural Relations in
>Hanoi. During the meeting, POW McCain sipped coffee and ate oranges and
>cakes with his interrogator.
>
>While talking with Barral, McCain seriously violated the military
>Code of Conduct by failing to evade answering questions "to the utmost"
>of his ability when he, according to the DOD report, helped Barral by
>answering questions in Spanish, a language McCain had learned in school.
>
>March 15, 1973 – McCain was released from the Hanoi Hilton and
>returned to the United States.
>
>The Late Fall, 1974 - McCain returned to Vietnam with a delegation of
>officials as guests of the South Vietnamese government to celebrate the
>Republic of Vietnam's National Day. South Vietnam's president, Nguyen
>Van Thieu, had invited representatives of major U.S. veterans
>organizations and several POW's including McCain to honor the sacrifice
>of U.S. veterans "for the South Vietnamese cause."
>
>At a reception, the host, one of President Thieu's closest aides, told
>the visiting U.S. veterans that he and the president would do anything
>they could to make sure members of the delegation could meet anyone
>they wanted or go anywhere they wanted to go.
>
>McCain, still a United States Navy officer stuck up his hand and said
>he wanted to visit Con Son Island. The request stunned the host and the
>rest of the delegation. Con Son, located fifty miles off the southern
>coast was the "site of South Vietnam's toughest prison, where the most
>dangerous suspected communist and other prisoners were kept."
>
>Four years before, in 1970, American anti-war activist Don Luce, had
>led a U.S. congressional delegation to the prison island to publicize
>South Vietnam's holding of prisoners in cells that became infamous as
>South Vietnam's prisoner "tiger cages."
>
>As a result of the Luce delegation trip to Con Son Island, the
>communist Vietnamese had gained an international propaganda bonanza
>against the U.S. war effort in Vietnam.
>
>McCain's hosts were extremely uncomfortable with McCain's request, but
>he kept pressing. A visit for McCain to Con Son was arranged for the
>last day before the groups departure.
>
>McCain visited the Con Son prison and interrogated camp officials about
>the conditions in the prison.
>Some where between Con Son and the mainland McCain decided not to make
>an issue of the conditions in the prison. He did not speak on the
>record for reporters waiting to hear what he had to say.
>
>June 1, 1988- New York Times- "When John McCain arrived in here [in
>Washington] as a freshman Republican Congressman in 1983, one of the
>issues very much on his mind was how the United States should deal with
>Vietnam . . . He was, he said, dismayed by the Reagan Administration's
>flat refusal to afford any kind of diplomatic recognition to Hanoi,
>something he thought could help clear up a number of issues, including
>the fate of those servicemen still missing in action . . . Mr. McCain,
>now the junior Senator from Arizona, is leading a legislative effort to
>force the Administration to open a lower-level American post in
>Vietnam, which could be preliminary to more formal relations."
>
>July 11, 1995 - Sen. Jonh McCain, R-Ariz., and Sen. John Kerry, D-
>Mass., gave President Bill Clinton the valuable political cover he
>needed to remove the U.S. imposed trade embargo against communist
>Vietnam. All major U.S. veterans organizations, the two POW/MIA family
>groups, and the majority of Vietnamese Americans in this country
>opposed Clinton's lifting of the embargo and the later normalizing of
>diplomatic relations.
>
>March 25, 1999, The Phoenix New Times: Ted Guy and Gordon "Swede"
>Larson, two former POWs, who were McCain's senior ranking officers
>(SRO's), at the time McCain says he was tortured in solitary
>confinement, told the New Times that while they could not guarantee
>that McCain was not physically harmed, they doubted it.
>"Between the two of us, it's our belief, and to the best of our
>knowledge, that no prisoner was beaten or harmed physically in that
>camp [known as "The Plantation"]," Larson says. ". . . My only
>contention with the McCain deal is that while he was at The Plantation,
>to the best of my knowledge and Ted's knowledge, he was not physically
>abused in any way. No one was in that camp. It was the camp that people
>were released from."
>Ted Sampley
>For more, go to: U.S. Veteran Dispatch:
>http://www.usvetdsp.com/main.shtml
>
>
>
>
Charles G. White
> The big problem with McCain is that he still does not see anything
> in wrong in what he did in Vietnam, and that he publically
> refers to Vietnamese as "gooks." Does American need racist and militarist
> as president ? Wait, wait, don't tell me; this is r.a.m., so the
> answer will be "yes."
You have to be kidding me. [You really aren't serious on this one, are
you?] The ones who beat the hell out of our POWs deserved to be called
gooks. Further, keep in mind that McCain was Air Force and did not spend
any time in the field with the South "Vietnamese".
Charles G. White
> The big problem with McCain is that he still does not see anything
> in wrong in what he did in Vietnam, and that he publically
> refers to Vietnamese as "gooks." Does American need racist and militarist
> as president ?
Michael, you really are kidding, arn't you? The North Vietnamese who beat
the hell out of our POWs deserved to be called gooks or any other derogatory
term that might come to mind. Keep in mind that McCain was Air Force and
P. Wezeman
----snip----
> Nonsense. Who's going to stop someone from voicing an opinion? You
> and what army?
Uh... the People's Liberation Army?
Peter Wezeman, anti-social Darwinist
"Carpe Cyprinidae"
Donnell Miller
You are Correct again. Everybody should read the page you cited in
your message.
Thank you for the information. As usual, you have capped the the
discussion with your research into Mr. Sampleys poisonous diatribe. The
article you referenced should put an end to his character assassination
at least in this group.
Dandy Don
WGWSO/NAV Ret
DC
directly from survival instructors. Now I have been in this group long
enough to respect info from people like Ed Rasimus, so if that is indeed the
case maybe someone with direct knowledge should pass the info on to the
survival school? I don't doubt their own story got inflated throughout the
years.
Dino
"Andy Bush" <alfa...@doitnow.com> wrote in message
news:Namh4.843$M4.9...@den-news1.rmi.net...
DC
was at Survival School, I seem to recall being told almost the exact same
info from our instructors.
Dino
"BUFDRVR" <buf...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000119093306...@ng-fc1.aol.com...
> >Actually, no. To both sentences above. We (aircrews) were all trained.
>
> Really ? That's not what they tell us at Survival. They maintain the
course was
> set up following the Vietnam War because of feedback the USAF recieved
from
> returning POW's who claimed they were not trained to resist.
>
>
> >The "policy" developed from the Korean War--which fostered the
> >establishment of the Code--was to resist to the maximum extent
> >possible. To delay, to mislead, to prevaricate as necessary.
>
> Once again, according to the guys (and a few gals) teaching up at
Fairchild,
> the Code was rather inflexible prior to 1975. Words like "to the best of
your
> ability" were not included until the returning POW's from NV insisted that
> flexibility be added.
>
>
> BUFDRVR
>
> "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it
harelips
> everyone on Bear Creek"
Charles G. White
> You have to be kidding me. [You really aren't serious on this one, are
> gooks. Further, keep in mind that McCain was Air Force and did not spend
> any time in the field with the South "Vietnamese".
Correction: McCain was Navy -- I don't think he spent any time at all in
South Vietnam -- not even in rear support areas in country.
Andy Bush
The issue is what those instructors are saying. Are they speaking in broad
generalities or in reference to some specific feature of their school?
I don't know the answer to that. But the AF had schools that attempted to
teach resistance techniques at least as early as the mid-60s. In addition to
Stead and Fairchild, the AF Academy had a 'POW camp' that taught SERE
(survival, evasion, resistance, and escape) by 1966, if not earlier.
My father was an AF pilot who went thru a similar type of school somewhere
in the South (Georgia, South Carolina?) in the late 50s, if I remember
correctly. I recall this because he told me that the 'POW prison'
instructors played a popular rock and roll song of the time...Lolli
Pop...constantly day and night to wear the 'students' down. I think that
song was popular around 1958.
Andy
Michael Kagalenko
]
]> For the truth of this rat and his campaign, go to WWW.MIAFACTS.ORG .
]
]The actual page of interest is at http://WWW.MIAFACTS.ORG/mccain.htm
]and the material about Sampley is toward the bottom. The whole page
]is interesting and informative, so read it all, and don't give up
]because you don't see anything about Sampley. You will, and it will
]sadden you greatly to think that people would, apparently, make money
]on the grief and sorrow of those who had friends and family killed or
]missing in SEA.
The big problem with McCain is that he still does not see anything
in wrong in what he did in Vietnam, and that he publically
refers to Vietnamese as "gooks." Does American need racist and militarist
Stephen McCullough
>iven his talks and suggestions on TV I am
>not surprised at all. In addition he is very
>stuipid personaly. Although Mr. Bush is not
>better in this respect. I hope Mr. Gore
>will be the next president. At least he is
>not looking as an idiot.
>
>Michael
>
If you believe Al Gore is the most intelligent of the presidential hopefuls,
you need to watch more TV. Bradley was a Rhodes scholar. Bush, while no great
student, did graduate from Yale and McCain is a naval Academy Grad. Plus if you
want a great laugh, read gore's book on the enviroment. The man is close to
being one of those raving lunatics of Earth First.
Stephen McCullough
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly."
Stephen McCullough
>
>The actual page of interest is at http://WWW.MIAFACTS.ORG/mccain.htm
>and the material about Sampley is toward the bottom.
This Sampley seems to be about the sleaziest, most despicable excuse for a
person that can be found. I love how he challenges McCain's honor while he
hides behind a baby to escape arrest. Its true, the internet brings out the
real losers of the world. Sampley is president for life of that group.
Stephen McCullough
>hink everyone should research the records of those
>POW returnees who John McCain has attacked for daring to
>ask what happened to the POWs alive in enemy hands and who
>never returned. McCain has ridiculed Red McDaniel and his
>efforts. I believe Captain McDaniel when he says that
>National Security Council Member Richard Childress admitted
Whats your relationship to Sampley? What's your organization's relationship to
Sampley? I suspect there is something more then meets the eye.
Tim
I'm sure that if you ever went to RODN prior to 1996 you probably pissed
on the Hanoi Jane sticker that was inside a urnial in our SCIF at the 82d.
Is Cool Breeze still a "T" if so tell him Farmer Ted says hey!
SentRaven <mhu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Ky2h4.42$W4....@news1.rdc1.ne.home.com...
p_...@my-deja.com
No one can predict future. But we will be terribly busi
inside our own country for at least 10 years. You can
relax for a while.
Michael
Mary Shafer
> Thank you for the information. As usual, you have capped the the
> discussion with your research into Mr. Sampleys poisonous diatribe.
> The article you referenced should put an end to his character
> assassination at least in this group.
Remember, though, that an individual's web page represents only the
views of the individual. There's no editing, no "equal time", no
other points of view. The owner of this site is careful to point out
that what he has written is what he knows, but that's all. He doesn't
claim that it's the absolute truth or even the last word.
The biggest problem with the web is that anyone can put anything up on
a page, no matter how right, wrong, or weird it is, and there are no
guarantees or validations available. For example, the whole MIAFACTS
site could be the work of McCain supporters trying to defuse a
legitimate critic. I don't think it is, of course, but the
possibility does exist. After all, there are a lot of very strange
sites and even stranger motives.
I'd say that every bit of information from the web should be treated
with the same skepticism we'd give any other unproven source of
information. After all, the hardest things to be skeptical about are
the things in which we already believe; it's easy to be skeptical
about things in which we don't believe.
--
Mary Shafer http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html
sha...@rigel.dfrc.nasa.gov Of course I don't speak for NASA
Senior Handling Qualities Research Engineer
David Lentz
What John McCain did is not the subject under dispute. McCain
admits that he gave information to the enemy in exchange for
better medical treatment. The fact of McCain's cooperation is
not the question.
The question is given the circumstances in which McCain was
placed and the actions to which he admits to taking, how
reasonable did McCain act? I don't know.
That McCain's actions are questionable are self-evident, They
are being questioned, not merely by myself. If McCain's behavior
as a POW was reasonable, appropriate and understandable that
should be explainable in open discussion.
Whether McCain could have done more can only be answered by
McCain himself. What is examinable is what McCain did when
compared others is similar circumstances.
David
David
Ed Rasimus
>In Vietnam Staff Sergeant Sampley served in the B-36 Mike Force, as a
>company commander of a CIDG company, operating mostly along the
>Cambodian border.
If you need to pad a resume at least be believable. How did Staff Sgt
Sampley as Company Commander deal with the Lt. platoon leaders in the
company, the other Company Commanders (all Capts) and the many
E-7/8/9's typical in any Special Forces unit?
Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
*** Ziff-Davis Interactive
*** (http://www.zdnet.com)
pmartin
basterisd as Gook. This I heard from a Korean War Vet.
Charles G. White <whit...@amaonline.com> wrote in article
<5ruh4.145$G.1...@newsfeed.slurp.net>...
> Michael Kagalenko wrote in message
> > The big problem with McCain is that he still does not see anything
> > in wrong in what he did in Vietnam, and that he publically
> > refers to Vietnamese as "gooks." Does American need racist and
militarist
> > as president ?
>
> Michael, you really are kidding, arn't you? The North Vietnamese who
beat
> the hell out of our POWs deserved to be called gooks or any other
derogatory
> term that might come to mind. Keep in mind that McCain was Air Force and
David Lentz
Stephen McCullough wrote:
<snip>
> If you believe Al Gore is the most intelligent of the presidential hopefuls,
> you need to watch more TV. Bradley was a Rhodes scholar. Bush, while no great
> student, did graduate from Yale and McCain is a naval Academy Grad. Plus if you
> want a great laugh, read gore's book on the enviroment. The man is close to
> being one of those raving lunatics of Earth First.
>
> Stephen McCullough
Of the four, John McCain, Bill Bradley, Al Gore, and George W.
Bush, I'd bet that Bradley is the smartest. Then none of the
four is Mortimer Snerd and none is rocket scents.
Intelligence is a much over rated issued, and there isn't enough
difference with these four to merit an arguement.
David
Gatt
> > student, did graduate from Yale and McCain is a naval Academy Grad.
> Plus if you > want a great laugh, read gore's book on the enviroment.
> The man is close to > being one of those raving lunatics of Earth First.
Most Earth Firsters (I know many) detest Gore too. His "Oh, gee, I
published a book so that makes me an environmentalist, voters" stance has
been viewed as nothing but a sell-out vote-getter.
And, personally, I don't give a shit WHAT McCain told his captors. It
didn't and couldn't have made a damned bit of difference, and his
political enemies best be careful unless they've been there and done that,
'cause I'm inclined to lend my sympathy toward an ex-POW regardless of his
flaws LONG before I'm going to support some dickhead that wants to
publically challenge a former Prisoner of War's courage.
If McCain's rivals even START to suggest he's not honorable or he lacked
courage, I'm through listening to that party. (Not sure yet who I'll vote
for, so that's no factor.)
-gatt
Chris Gattman
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The sky is humming and my motor thunders..." -Floater
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew Saroff (Remove .123456 to reply)
>John McCain Is No "Hero POW Resister"
>He seriously violated the Military Code of Conduct by trading "military
>information" and making public statements that appeared favorable to
>the communist war effort in exchange for "special treatment."
So how is the GW Bush campaign Going?
First promise, "No negative campaigning", then use
proxies to do your dirty work.
Dubya, George HW Bush without the brains, scruples or war
heroics.
--
--Matthew Saroff
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
Check http://www.pobox.com/~msaroff, including The Bad Hair Web Page
sam...@my-deja.com
> If you need to pad a resume at least be believable. How did Staff Sgt
> Sampley as Company Commander deal with the Lt. platoon leaders in the
> company, the other Company Commanders (all Capts) and the many
> E-7/8/9's typical in any Special Forces unit?
Because, in Vietnam, there was only one captain in a Special Forces "A"
Team.
In the Mike Force, he was the battalion commander. All company
commanders were NCO's. The CIDG were local civilians hired by the
company commanders and paid in money supplied by the U.S. government.
I personally hired, paid and fired (if necessary) all the men in my
company, the strength of which fluctuated between 130 to 170 men
depending on losses. The average pay per month for a CIDG was about $90
as compared to a South Vietnamese Army soldier who was paid
approximately $15 per month.
Some of the CIDG in my company were as young as 14. Shocking maybe, but
that is the was it was in the South Vietnam. We Americans rotated out
every year while the South Vietnamese were there for the all the war.
You don't have to believe me. Information like this is easy check out.
Find a former SF officer who served in Vietnam. Ask him.
I have no need to pad my service in the United States Army and Vietnam.
Ted Sampley
B-36 Mike Force 1969-1970
In article <38877470....@news.rmi.net>,
Stephen McCullough
>nt."
> So how is the GW Bush campaign Going?
> First promise, "No negative campaigning", then use
>proxies to do your dirty work.
> Dubya, George HW Bush without the brains, scruples or war
>heroics.
>--
> --Matthew Saroff
>
I would bet my last dollar that this idiot Sampley has ZERO connection with the
George W. Bush campaign. Evidently, this moron has had a thing against McCain
for years because the senator instigated a investigation of Sampley's MIA
frauds and lies. Besies, if any campaign is adept at smears, Clinton's lapdog
Gore is the most versed in the politics of personal attacks.
Stephen Harding
> All I know is Hun-Guk is a Korean man of some kind, so it got
> basterisd as Gook. This I heard from a Korean War Vet.
The term "gook" goes back at least to American involvement in
the Philippines around 1900.
Not sure of its etymology.
SMH
Mary Shafer
> And, personally, I don't give a shit WHAT McCain told his captors. It
> didn't and couldn't have made a damned bit of difference, and his
> political enemies best be careful unless they've been there and done that,
> 'cause I'm inclined to lend my sympathy toward an ex-POW regardless of his
> flaws LONG before I'm going to support some dickhead that wants to
> publically challenge a former Prisoner of War's courage.
Apparently, the people who started the whispering campaign about
McCain, particularly about him not being "stable", aren't running for
national office, so you may not have a chance to vote against them.
The articles I've read say that Trent Lott is the leader of the
campaign against McCain. Others at his level are high-ranking
Republicans as well.
IClaudius
Saroff (Remove .123456 to reply)" <msaroff...@pobox.com> wrote:
> So how is the GW Bush campaign Going?
> First promise, "No negative campaigning", then use
> proxies to do your dirty work.
> Dubya, George HW Bush without the brains, scruples or war
> heroics.
> --
> --Matthew Saroff
George W Bush is not running against he dad, he is running against John
McCain. Between Bush and McCain hich of the two do you suppose has the
better academic record? George W. Bush has both a bachelors degree
from Yale and an MBA from Harvard business school. He was in the
middle of the pack at Harvard. McCain graduated fifth from the bottom
at Annapolis and barely made it. If he was a regular kid not being
groomed by his family of admiralls to be a 3rd generation naval
officer, do you think he could have won a competitive nomination to a
service academy? Based on this high school record. No way.
Bona fide war heros are few and far between so let's not use that as a
litmus test for who can be president. He is a brave and honorable man
who has served his country with distinction, but having read his book I
don't find any acts of heroism by McCain. Let's not forget Sen. Bob
Kerrey, an authentic American hero, Navy SEAL, MOH winner and lost his
leg in combat. Yet he did not win the 1992 Democratic primary against
Clinton.
Despite my sympathy for McCain's imprisonment in Vietnam, I am more
interest in his position on today's political issues. I am interested
in how he is going to lead this country if he gets nominated to the GOP
next month and elected as president, especially with respect to
military readiness and military aviation. Bush has a vision of how to
reshape the armed forces to improve it's effectiveness, develop a new
generation of weapons, and the threats America is likely to face in the
future.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
David Lentz
IClaudius wrote:
<snip>
> Bona fide war heros are few and far between so let's not use that as a
> litmus test for who can be president. He is a brave and honorable man
> who has served his country with distinction, but having read his book I
> don't find any acts of heroism by McCain. Let's not forget Sen. Bob
> Kerrey, an authentic American hero, Navy SEAL, MOH winner and lost his
> leg in combat. Yet he did not win the 1992 Democratic primary against
> Clinton.
Bona fide war heroes? Off the topic of my head and subject to
debate: George w
Washington, Andrew Jackson, William Henry Harrison, Abraham
Lincoln, U.S. Grant, William McKinley, Harry Truman, Dwight
Eisenhower, John Kennedy, and George Bush.
John McCain flew combat missions over North Vietnam. That is
enough of a risk to qualify as hero, for assuming the risk and
not be being shot down.
David
me
p_...@my-deja.com wrote in message <864745$tcp$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <861lid$1c4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> sam...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>Given his talks and suggestions on TV I am
>not surprised at all. In addition he is very
>stuipid personaly. Although Mr. Bush is not
>better in this respect. I hope Mr. Gore
>will be the next president. At least he is
>not looking as an idiot.
>
by god you are, by that statement.
sam...@my-deja.com
You obviously knew nothing about me or the or the issue of "left
behind" U.S. prisoners of war before I posted here.
You have accused me of being a "fraud and lair." Now back your
accusations.
Detail what "MIA frauds and lies" you say I have committed. You must
have factual sources. List them.
Ted Sampley
In article <20000121013223...@ng-ck1.aol.com>,
mcst...@aol.comnospam (Stephen McCullough) wrote:
> >From: "Matthew Saroff (Remove .123456 to reply)"
msaroff...@pobox.com
>
> >nt."
> > So how is the GW Bush campaign Going?
> > First promise, "No negative campaigning", then use
> >proxies to do your dirty work.
> > Dubya, George HW Bush without the brains, scruples or war
> >heroics.
> >--
> > --Matthew Saroff
> >
>
> I would bet my last dollar that this idiot Sampley has ZERO
connection with the
> George W. Bush campaign. Evidently, this moron has had a thing
against McCain
> for years because the senator instigated a investigation of Sampley's
MIA
> frauds and lies. Besies, if any campaign is adept at smears,
Clinton's lapdog
> Gore is the most versed in the politics of personal attacks.
>
> Stephen McCullough
>
> "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly."
>
>
Matthew Saroff (Remove .123456 to reply)
>
>Despite my sympathy for McCain's imprisonment in Vietnam, I am more
>interest in his position on today's political issues. I am interested
>in how he is going to lead this country if he gets nominated to the GOP
>next month and elected as president, especially with respect to
>military readiness and military aviation. Bush has a vision of how to
>reshape the armed forces to improve it's effectiveness, develop a new
>generation of weapons, and the threats America is likely to face in the
>future.
any circumstances. It's the use of proxies, etc. that disgusts
me.
--
Matthew Saroff
Does anyone else out there strongly feel that the folks at the TV
Networks who have censored out Daffy's beak getting blown off (Shoot
Me NOW!) deserve to be stripped naked, tied face down over a chair,
covered with moose musk, and set in the migratory path of a large
moose herd?
Comments to msa...@123456.pobox.com (remove the numbers to reply)
Mike Massaro
the 2000 Whitehouse. Would you please expand on George Bush's vision for
reshaping the armed services. Also please keep in mind that no GOP or
Democrat will be chosen next month in the primaries. This task is saved for
the conventions during the summer when the parties officiall choose their
candidate.
I would also like you to expand on the impact of academic records in a
presidential race. And if you would ponder this thought.... Do you not
think that maybe Bush was able to get into Ivy League schools due to his
father's prominence in the government. Do not forget the role that
ex-President Bush played at the CIA and other positions.
Please expand your thoughts and aid me in making my voting decision.
Mike Massaro
Graduate Student
Department of Government and International Affairs
IClaudius <norcott...@att.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:13001ab4...@usw-ex0101-005.remarq.com...
> In article <kgof8sgsr6akptrjo...@4ax.com>, "Matthew
> Saroff (Remove .123456 to reply)" <msaroff...@pobox.com> wrote:
> > So how is the GW Bush campaign Going?
> > First promise, "No negative campaigning", then use
> > proxies to do your dirty work.
> > Dubya, George HW Bush without the brains, scruples or war
> > heroics.
> > --
> > --Matthew Saroff
>
>
> George W Bush is not running against he dad, he is running against John
> McCain. Between Bush and McCain hich of the two do you suppose has the
> better academic record? George W. Bush has both a bachelors degree
> from Yale and an MBA from Harvard business school. He was in the
> middle of the pack at Harvard. McCain graduated fifth from the bottom
> at Annapolis and barely made it. If he was a regular kid not being
> groomed by his family of admiralls to be a 3rd generation naval
> officer, do you think he could have won a competitive nomination to a
> service academy? Based on this high school record. No way.
>
> Bona fide war heros are few and far between so let's not use that as a
> litmus test for who can be president. He is a brave and honorable man
> who has served his country with distinction, but having read his book I
> don't find any acts of heroism by McCain. Let's not forget Sen. Bob
> Kerrey, an authentic American hero, Navy SEAL, MOH winner and lost his
> leg in combat. Yet he did not win the 1992 Democratic primary against
> Clinton.
>
> Despite my sympathy for McCain's imprisonment in Vietnam, I am more
> interest in his position on today's political issues. I am interested
> in how he is going to lead this country if he gets nominated to the GOP
> next month and elected as president, especially with respect to
> military readiness and military aviation. Bush has a vision of how to
> reshape the armed forces to improve it's effectiveness, develop a new
> generation of weapons, and the threats America is likely to face in the
> future.
>
>
>
>
H.E.C
Top or bottom from Annapolis makes little difference in my mind. They
endured a very intense military indoctrination (including summers) while
completing an average of 20 academic hours per semester at just about the
most selective college in the nation. And the Naval Academy looks at
singificantly more than just high school academics in its admissions
process.
Regardless of where he finished, you can't graduate from Annapolis without a
personal commitment to do so. History shows also that, the guys who succeed
after graduating from Annapolis typically come from the very top or the very
bottom of the class. Admiral Nimitz is a good example of someone who
finished near the basement.
An aside: What do you call the last guy in the graduating class at
Annapolis?
Answer: Ensign.
By committing to and graduating from Annapolis, Senator McCain shows me that
he made a personal commitment to serve the country and that he brings a set
of personal values that puts the nation ahead of his own adgenda.
> groomed by his family of admiralls to be a 3rd generation naval
> officer, do you think he could have won a competitive nomination to a
> service academy?
Yes.
>Based on this high school record. No way.
Like I said before, a lot more goes into getting accepted by Annapolis than
a high school transcript. You can be strictly a 4.0 student and a book worm
and get into the Ivies. You've got to be a strong student and active at
school and in the community to get picked up by Annapolis.
> He is a brave and honorable man
> who has served his country with distinction, but having read his book I
> don't find any acts of heroism by McCain.
Pick your choice
1. Helping shipmates after his jet was hit by a missile on the deck of the
USS Forrestal.
2. Flying the combat missions over Vietnam.
3. Refusing early release.
Any of those acts make him a hero in my mind.
Kerryn Offord
Lucifer wrote:
>
> In article <kfhi8sk56tti99vov...@4ax.com>
> "Matthew Saroff (Remove .123456 to reply)" <msaroff...@pobox.com> wrote:
>
> > IClaudius <norcott...@att.net.invalid> wrote:
<SNIP>
> > >Bush has a vision of how to
> > >reshape the armed forces to improve it's effectiveness, develop a new
> > >generation of weapons, and the threats America is likely to face in the
> > >future.
>
> He *does*?
Maybe there are a lot of military contractors in Texas, or a lot of his
millions of campaign contributions are sourced (one way or another) from
interested defence contractors who have told him their visions for the
future of USA defence (spending).
Stephen McCullough
>
>Mr. McCullough,
>
>You obviously knew nothing about me or the or the issue of "left
>behind" U.S. prisoners of war before I posted here.
>
>You have accused me of being a "fraud and lair." Now back your
>accusations.
>
>Detail what "MIA frauds and lies" you say I have committed. You must
>have factual sources. List them.
>Ted Sampley
>
I believe there is the little matter of misappriated money. How tax fraud,
using the MIA cause as your personal windfall. Why should I offer proof? You
smear McCain's name with rumors and gossip. You know what you are? You are
vulture, feasting on the misfortunes of others. Instead of hustling T-shirs all
day and bothering tourists, try and earn an honest living.
sam...@my-deja.com
are manufactured lies.
You and others on this newsgroup were spoon fed directions to a web
page operated by former Army Col. Joe Schlatter, chief of Defense
Intelligence Agency (DIA) Special Office for POW-MIA Affairs from 1986
to 1995.
His job while in the POW/MIA office was to murder the missing in action
on paper and to discredit any individual or group that got in the way.
On that web page, Schlatter, uses quotes from an obscure
book "Prisoners of Hope," by Susan Katz Keating, to systematically
attack leading activists of the POW/MIA movement and me in particular.
Have you ever heard about "killing the messenger?"
Sen. John McCain and the Col. Joe Schlatter were primary sources for
Keating's book. She was a Washington Times reporter at one time and was
given open access to Schlatter's office in the Pentagon and McCain's
office in Washington..
In her book, she trashed all the leading POW activists including former
POW U.S. Navy Captain Eugene B. McDaniel. He flew 81 missions over
Vietnam before being shot down and captured. .
Keating accused McDaniel, a highly decorated veteran, of being a
swindler.
Now, when McCain and Schlatter need to discredit the POW/MIA movement
and activists, they quote from "Prisoners of Hope," a book they helped
write.
Capt. McDaniel's non-profit organization, the American Defense
Institute, ran the POW/MIA vigil for over a year before Homecoming II
Project, the non-profit group I was appointed chairman of assumed
operation of the vigil.
Yes, we sold t-shirts to raise money for the organization as did about
12 to 15 other veteran related groups in that area. None of those
groups were investigated by the senate, Keating or anyone else. Only
Homecoming II was singled out. Surprise! Surprise!
At that time, we were the most active POW/MIA organization in the
country. We had an office in Washington, Thailand and in North Carolina
where I live. That's right, I don't even live in Washington.
No, I did not personally "get rich," nor did my construction company or
the U.S. Veteran Dispatch http://www.usvetdsp.com/main.shtml , a
newspaper that I have been publishing since 1986. We print 10,000 to
20,000 copies per issue. The U.S. Dispatch is free to the public unless
it is received by mail.
Care to tell me how to run an organization or publish a free newspaper
without raising money?
In 1992, at McCain's request, senate staffers for the Senate Select
Committee on POW/MIA Affairs, came to my hometown in North Carolina
with a subpoena and seized all of my personal financial records along
with those of Homecoming II.
To this day, I don't know what they took from my accountant. All I know
is that they scared the hell out of him and took back to Washington all
kinds of my personal records. Welcome to the dark side of John McCain.
For the record, the U.S. Veteran Dispatch belongs to a private
cooperation of which I own all the stock. The newspaper makes very
little money.
Now you know.
By the way, are you so naive as to believe that I would be publicly
questioning the "super hero POW Resister" John McCain if I were guilty
of all those things?
Ted Sampley
In article <20000123001320...@ng-fy1.aol.com>,
Bill Norcott
Because a candidate wants to rebuild an Air Force that has been cut by
50% during the Clinton administration, he is controlled by defense
contractors? That is quite a theory, perhaps you have some evidence to
back it. The list of all his campaign contributors is freely available
on his web page, you can start there if you like. George W. Bush
served as a fighter pilot in the Air National Guard. Don't you credit
that as reason enough for him to want the best possible equipment for
the next generation of Air Force fighter pilots? I do. I have met the
man and spoken with him about defense, and I am convinced that George
W. Bush will strengthen the military, particularly the Air Force.
Bill
--
"Wars have never hurt anybody except the people who die."
- Salvador Dali
IClaudius
Increase military pay raise by $1 billion to attract best and brightest
to military (this averages out to $750 per person in the military). In
addition, bigger recruiting bonuses for those with special skills, for
example pilots and software engineers. Renovate military housing and
increase training budget. Immediate review of all overseas commitments
with no troop deployments unless America's interests are at stake. No
more ill-defined military deployments to all parts of the world. No
U.S. troops will ever serve under U.N. command. Supports accelarated
research of theater and national missile defense. Increase
intelligence spending with focus on terrorist groups. Put terrorist
groups on notice that if U.S. is attacked, response will be
devastating. Increase long range strike capability, i.e. strategic
bombing, to support the above. Set aside 20% of military budget for
research and development of new generation weapons systems. Increase
defense R&D by at least $20 billion over four years. Skip a
generation of weapons systems by introducing new weapons, not just
upgrades to existing equipment.
Ed Rasimus
>
>I strongly suggest that you do some real research and examine
>the POW/MIA documentation available. Pulitzer prize winning journalist
>Sydney Schanberg was the only reporter to extensively cover the
>Senate Select POW/MIA committee, and Schanberg gives numerous
>quotes from government documents - by all means seek out the original
>documents from the National Archives and Library of Congress. Likewise,
>Mr. Sampley is an aggressive journalist who has sought out declassified
>government documents and published that information.
I've known quite a few of the POWs from the Vietnam conflict. I knew
many before their capture and after their release. I've spoken with
them about the POW/MIA issue at great length. They are all quite
consistent in their sympathy for families who lost loved ones, but
they also freely acknowledge the futility of retaining a misplace
hope.
In many instances that hope was related to an erroneous effort to ease
the loss and preserve pay and allowances by reporting folks as MIA who
were fairly clearly KIA.
The suggestion that Schanberg was the "only reporter" to cover the
Senate Select committee is ludicrous. And, Mr. Sampley's
interpretation of the documents is the major issue here. The reports
of Thorseness, Day, Dramesi, Guarino, Denton, Risner, Breckner and
many others seem to contradict Mr. Sampley's conclusions.
>
> I firmly believe
>that when U.S. satellites picked up rescue codes in 1992, codes the
>pilots were trained to create should they ever be downed or captured,
>that the U.S. government should have done everything they could to
>rescue those men.
I was a pilot in the conflict, flying more than 250 combat missions
with more than 150 of those over North Vietnam. At no time was I ever
trained, instructed, advised or counseled to create rescue codes for
satellite observation or any other reason. We were trained to use
radios, mirrors, whistles, flares, signal panels and similar devices,
but nothing in the nature of satellite observable codes.
>I believe it is a matter of honor, of duty, to demand the Vietnamese
>return the POWs. If the Vietnamese have executed them, their bodies
>can be returned. It is your choice to honor the sacrifices of those
>unaccounted for and seek their release, or to join those who would
>abandon their fellow Americans and relish attacking family members and
>their supporters.
I honor those I served with and avoid gratuitous character
assassination against those who disagree with me. Unlike Mr. Sampley
who can't quite get the message.