Heinkel Long-Range Bomber Project
Rob Arndt
LIBERATOR
> http://www.luft46.com/mlart/mllrb-9.jpg
>
> Rob
....! ! !....
Freaking amazing!
Rob
Now you know where the Vulcan gots its intakes ;)
Rob
Keith Willshaw
"Rob" <teut...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:4a25689f-3c0a-45e6...@c20g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 12, 2:55?am, LIBERATOR <spy.exp...@linuxmail.org> wrote:
> On Jun 12, 2:19?am, Rob Arndt <teuton...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >http://www.luft46.com/mlart/mllrb-9.jpg
>
> > Rob
>
> ....! ! !....
>
> Freaking amazing!
> Now you know where the Vulcan gots its intakes ;)
How much would you bet that this sketch was made LONG after the
design of the Vulcan and Victor. Now the HP Victor really was
amazing to see and it was real.
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/uk/bomber/victor.jpg
Keith
Rob
<ke...@nospam.kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> "Rob" <teuton...@aol.com> wrote in message
Sorry, should have said Victor instead of Vulcan.
The He 60 Ton Long-Range Bomber Project, however, was due to the Feb
22, 1945 Dessau Reichsmarshall Conference requirement for a 4-engine
bomber with a payload of 3.3 tons and a range of over 17,000 mile
using either 4x HeS 011 or BMW 018 engines.
Subsequently, on Oct 1, 1945 the US Technical Service required
Heinkel's Project and Design Department in Vienna to surrender and
also continue design work on all Heinkel four-engine long-range bomber
projects, according to Dipl-Ing Sigfried Gunter.
The 60 Ton Bomber was one of the designs submitted...
It predates the Victor.
Rob
Ken S. Tucker
Take that through a flock of geese, yummy outputted.
Them thar intakes look good for eatin' birdies.
Ken
Keith Willshaw
On Jun 12, 1:31?pm, "Keith Willshaw"
<ke...@nospam.kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> "Rob" <teuton...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:4a25689f-3c0a-45e6...@c20g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 12, 2:55?am, LIBERATOR <spy.exp...@linuxmail.org> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 12, 2:19?am, Rob Arndt <teuton...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > >http://www.luft46.com/mlart/mllrb-9.jpg
>
> > > Rob
>
> > ....! ! !....
>
> > Freaking amazing!
> > Now you know where the Vulcan gots its intakes ;)
>
>> How much would you bet that this sketch was made LONG after the
> Sorry, should have said Victor instead of Vulcan.
> The He 60 Ton Long-Range Bomber Project, however, was due to the Feb
> 22, 1945 Dessau Reichsmarshall Conference requirement for a 4-engine
> bomber with a payload of 3.3 tons and a range of over 17,000 mile
> using either 4x HeS 011 or BMW 018 engines.
The Heinkel He-60 was a biplane bomber built in 1933. There
was 4 engined project called the He 343 it was an enlarged
Arado 234 with straight wings and podded engines. The project
was cancelled in 1944
By Feb 22 1945 nobody believed any new designs would ever be built
their main concern was to find a way to surrender to the western
allies not the Soviets
Keith
Scott M. Kozel
>
> "Rob" <teuton...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> > >http://www.luft46.com/mlart/mllrb-9.jpg
>
> > > Rob
>
> > ....! ! !....
>
> > Freaking amazing!
> > Now you know where the Vulcan gots its intakes ;)
>
> How much would you bet that this sketch was made LONG after the
> design of the Vulcan and Victor. Now the HP Victor really was
> amazing to see and it was real.
>
> http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/uk/bomber/victor.jpg
Hey, don't you know that Americans and British stole their jet
airplane designs from the WWII Germans!
Rob
>
> - Show quoted text -
Keith,
Now you are just trying not to look like a fool.
Did I say the He-60? No, the Heinkel 60 Ton Long Range Bomber Project.
I gave the complete historical chronology which refutes that the
Victor was designed first- which is absurd.
The British, like the US and USSR copied and further developed German
aerospace technology postwar- fact.
I know you live in a fantasy world of the "British Empire Lives
Forever" but you were deafeated even before WW2 started with the rapid
US build-up of naval forces and carrier development. You won the war
but had to have help from the USSR to break the German Army and help
from the US to dare to bomb in daylight which you cowards failed to
do. The US stole the A-bomb from you too and didn't share a damn thing
with you postwar for all of your Manhatten Project and Tube Alloys
contributions.
Basically you won the war poor and had to kiss the Americans asses now
for 6.5 decades. Your great military aviation industry just went to
shit due to internal political mismanagement and the fact that it was
much easier for you poor bastards to buy American ;)
Victor is a British development of the He 60 Ton Bomber and it shows.
So is the Vulcan and many of your own postwar paper projects!
Rob
Rob
>
> - Show quoted text -
BTW, Keith, Old Boy... the Ju-488V-1 was under construction,
components of the He-343 were manufactured, and the center section of
the Ho XVIII was also being worked on in 1945. Sanger in Lofer was
also still working out the Silbervogel- they only made it to mock-up
stage, but at least they were still working.
But don't let those facts get in your way of trying to save face on
the previous post ;)
Rob
p.s. You can go back to your cigar and brandy now... and your copy of
Mayfair magazine!
Dan
> "Rob" <teut...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:4a25689f-3c0a-45e6...@c20g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 12, 2:55?am, LIBERATOR <spy.exp...@linuxmail.org> wrote:
>> On Jun 12, 2:19?am, Rob Arndt <teuton...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> http://www.luft46.com/mlart/mllrb-9.jpg
>>> Rob
>> ....! ! !....
>>
>> Freaking amazing!
>
>> Now you know where the Vulcan gots its intakes ;)
>
> How much would you bet that this sketch was made LONG after the
> design of the Vulcan and Victor.
That's a sucker's bet. Luft46 long ago ran out of designs actually
sketched before the Nazis were returned to their sewers.
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Dan
Aren't is back in form. I knew her relative civility couldn't last.
Dan
The Nazis got all their technology from Sanskrit writings and space
aliens.
Keith Willshaw
.
>
>> The Heinkel He-60 was a biplane bomber built in 1933. There
>> was 4 engined project called the He 343 it was an enlarged
>> Arado 234 with straight wings and podded engines. The project
>> was cancelled in 1944
>
>> By Feb 22 1945 nobody believed any new designs would ever be built
>> their main concern was to find a way to surrender to the western
>> allies not the Soviets
>>
>> Keith- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>>Keith,
> Now you are just trying not to look like a fool.
I leave looking like a fool to experts
> Did I say the He-60? No, the Heinkel 60 Ton Long Range Bomber Project.
A project which doesnt appear anywhere in the records of the Heinkel company
and for which you didnt provide any evidence except a sketch of
dubious origins
> I gave the complete historical chronology which refutes that the
> Victor was designed first- which is absurd.
You gave an account which is pure fiction
> The British, like the US and USSR copied and further developed German
> aerospace technology postwar- fact.
Winners do that
> I know you live in a fantasy world of the "British Empire Lives
> Forever" but you were deafeated even before WW2 started with the rapid
> US build-up of naval forces and carrier development. You won the war
And Germany lost
> but had to have help from the USSR to break the German Army and help
> from the US to dare to bomb in daylight which you cowards failed to
> do.
Fighting to your strengths is usually considered wisdom
> The US stole the A-bomb from you too and didn't share a damn thing
> with you postwar for all of your Manhatten Project and Tube Alloys
> contributions.
So where did we get that reactor in HMS Dreadnough from and
what was the treaty signed between Eisenhower and McMillan about ?
> Basically you won the war poor
Which was MUCH better than losing
> and had to kiss the Americans asses now
> for 6.5 decades. Your great military aviation industry just went to
> shit due to internal political mismanagement and the fact that it was
> much easier for you poor bastards to buy American ;)
> Victor is a British development of the He 60 Ton Bomber and it shows.
> So is the Vulcan and many of your own postwar paper projects!
I've walked around Victor's and Vulcans, they existed the He project didnt
Deal with it
Keith
Keith Willshaw
On Jun 12, 3:15?pm, Rob <teuton...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
> BTW, Keith, Old Boy... the Ju-488V-1 was under construction,
Indeed but Lancasters and Halifaxes were turning German industrial
plants into rubble
> components of the He-343 were manufactured, and the center section of
> the Ho XVIII was also being worked on in 1945. Sanger in Lofer was
> also still working out the Silbervogel- they only made it to mock-up
> stage, but at least they were still working.
Meanwhile the British Army had taken Hamburg and was advancing to the
Elbe
> But don't let those facts get in your way of trying to save face on
> the previous post ;)
I seem to recall one army surrendering to another on Luneberg Heath
Care to guess their identities ?
Keith
Dan
>
>> Basically you won the war poor
>
> Which was MUCH better than losing
>
I guess aren't thinks winning a war with nearly emptied coffers is
worse than losing a war with a bankrupt economy, incredible debt,
destroyed infrastructure, nonexistent industry, no merchant marine and
foreign occupation.
Keith Willshaw
"Dan" <B24...@aol.com> wrote in message news:UuBYl.398$9Z...@newsfe08.iad...
All of which pales into insignificance compared with the prize we won
FREEDOM
Something I shouldn't have to explain to any American which Aren't is
however much he likes to pretend to be German
Keith
Alan Dicey
> How much would you bet that this sketch was made LONG after the
> design of the Vulcan and Victor. Now the HP Victor really was
> amazing to see and it was real.
It's a no-brainer. Martin Letts' source is the recent "Luftwaffe Secret
Projects - Strategic Bombers 1935-1945, Dieter Herwig and Heinz Rode
(Midland Press)". First English language publication in 2000.
http://www.xplanes3d.com/Projects%20Pages/He_LRJB/He_LRJB_Thumbs.html
His artwork was created in the late 2000's.
He declares up-front that his artwork is speculative.
http://www.xplanes3d.com/
" my main aim being to showcase the visualisations and aviation art of
experimental and prototype aircraft projects of some of these X-planes
and how they might have looked had they been built - the 'what-ifs' of
aviation."
euno...@yahoo.com.au
<ke...@nospam.kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> "Rob" <teuton...@aol.com> wrote in message
The victor was a beautifull aircraft, apart from its escape systems.
However it has a lot of "German" technology:
1 The crescient wing: this was originally developed by Rudiger Kosin,
designer of the Arado Ar 234 for follow on versions of that aircraft.
The Arado 234 V16 was supposed to be the first test bed. In 1945
Handley Pages Chief Designer Reginald Stafford returned from Germany
and a visit to the Arado plant which had been captured by British
troops with his younger colleque Geoffrey Lee full of praise for the
new wing. The HP.80 was a result of this and this later became the
Victor.
The crescent wing use swept wing for the inner portion and slim
straight wing on the outer aileron portion to get the best of both
worlds.
2 There is Kuechmann Carrots on the Victor. developed by D.
Küchemann (Dietmar) which are in evidence on the photograph you
posted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_K%C3%BCchemann
which area ruled the Victor aircraft. He also designed this "area
ruled" aircraft:
http://www.luft46.com/fw/fw1000a.html
He also was responsible for Concord. Very smart streusel.
3 There was apparently some earliier HP work on crescent wings but
guess who was doing it?: Gustav Lachmann
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_Lachmann
He was the German Military pilot who invented the leading edge slat in
1917. Inorder to avoid a patent dispute the wealthy Handley page
whose company had developed a similar slat two years later employed
Lachmann.
Lachamann went on to design the Handley Page Hampton and Ithe Victor
was proably his last project.
euno...@yahoo.com.au
> On Jun 12, 1:31 pm, "Keith Willshaw"
>
>
>
>
>
> <ke...@nospam.kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > "Rob" <teuton...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:4a25689f-3c0a-45e6...@c20g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jun 12, 2:55?am, LIBERATOR <spy.exp...@linuxmail.org> wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 12, 2:19?am, Rob Arndt <teuton...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > >http://www.luft46.com/mlart/mllrb-9.jpg
>
> > > > Rob
>
> > > ....! ! !....
>
> > > Freaking amazing!
> > > Now you know where the Vulcan gots its intakes ;)
>
> > How much would you bet that this sketch was made LONG after the
> > design of the Vulcan and Victor. Now the HP Victor really was
> > amazing to see and it was real.
>
> >http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/uk/bomber/victor.jpg
>
> > Keith
>
> Sorry, should have said Victor instead of Vulcan.
>
> The He 60 Ton Long-Range Bomber Project, however, was due to the Feb
> 22, 1945 Dessau Reichsmarshall Conference requirement for a 4-engine
> bomber with a payload of 3.3 tons and a range of over 17,000 mile
> using either 4x HeS 011 or BMW 018 engines.
Planed thrust of the HeS 011 engines was
HeS 011A = 1300kP
HeS 011B = 1500kP
HeS 011C = 1700kP
(not a kiloPond is a unit of force and a kilogram a unit of mass that
match at 1G)
The BMW 018 engine (109-017 TLR) was designed for an initial thrust of
3500kP.
Hence there is no way that 4 HeS 011 engines (combined thrust ranging
5200kP to 6800kP) is going to lift a 60,000kG bomber. I'd say they
wanted 6 engines at least and more likely 8. For some reason sketches
usually show 6 engines,
Four BMW 018 however had the grunt to lift 60 tons easily.
>
> Subsequently, on Oct 1, 1945 the US Technical Service required
> Heinkel's Project and Design Department in Vienna to surrender and
> also continue design work on all Heinkel four-engine long-range bomber
> projects, according to Dipl-Ing Sigfried Gunter.
>
> The 60 Ton Bomber was one of the designs submitted...
17000km range is the magic number that allows raids deep into the east
coast while 17000 miles allows attacks over all CONUS.
I'd say Sigrified Gunter was trying to angle for a good job.
Nevetheless in flight refueling experiments between Ju 252 and Ju 290
had concluded succesfully using a type of hose and drogue system and
those kinds of raids would eventually have been possible in the
unliley sitution of another 1.5 years of work.
Fabrication of the BMW 018 had started but the engine was part
demolished to prevent capture though US troops recovered much of it,
it was to use a new generation of turbine alloys that had been
developed that raised permisable temperatures from 720C to 860C.
Strobe
>On Jun 12, 2:55?am, LIBERATOR <spy.exp...@linuxmail.org> wrote:
>> On Jun 12, 2:19?am, Rob Arndt <teuton...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> >http://www.luft46.com/mlart/mllrb-9.jpg
>>
>> > Rob
>>
>> ....! ! !....
>>
>> Freaking amazing!
>
>Now you know where the Vulcan gots its intakes ;)
Looks more like a Valiant to me.