Re: Why did the Brits sell the Nene engine to the Soviets?
Steven P. McNicoll
"hoarse with no name" <n...@spam.com> wrote in message
news:no2-CF5411.1...@cnews.newsguy.com...
>
> Many descriptions of the MiG-15 claim that the key to its performance
> was the engine, which was a copy of the Nene engine which the British
> willingly sold to the Soviets. Why did the Brits sell the engine? Also,
> why was it called Nene?
>
Rolls-Royce named their engines for rivers in Britain.
Dave Kearton
news:no2-CF5411.1...@cnews.newsguy.com...
|
| Many descriptions of the MiG-15 claim that the key to its performance
| was the engine, which was a copy of the Nene engine which the British
| willingly sold to the Soviets. Why did the Brits sell the engine? Also,
| why was it called Nene?
This question was raised about 2 years ago in this newsgroup and I kept one
of the replies from Graham Salt, who's response was succinct and to the
point.
It's all about John Kerry's war record and how he's always wanted to join
the Republican party to support his hidden lesbian agenda. (it's a
joke dammit)
With a tip of the hat to Graham ....
"Graham Salt" <gjs...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3dab3...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
|
| "David Windhorst" <dbwin...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
| news:3DAA55E3...@earthlink.net...
| >
| > One more thing -- did the British gov't. ever express any regret for
| > handing over the Nene?
| >
| > Thanks.
| >
| > David Windhorst
| >
|
| The British Government didn't just hand over the Nene to the Russians.
| History is as capable of distorting the reality of events as it is being
| smart with hindsight. When a Russian trade delegation came to Britain and
| asked to purchase the Nene and the Derwent engines, this was in a climate
of
| the desperate need to revitalise a bankrupt British economy, struggling to
| re-establish after a devastating war. Britain was looking to do what trade
| deals it could, within constraints of security matters as they were
| understood at the time. In spite of the catastrophic effects of war on its
| economy, Britain had come out of the conflict with some technological
| advances which put it in the category of world leader, not least its gas
| turbine capability. Rolls Royce had developed the Nene which had produced
| thrust far in excess of expectations, and was at the time the most
powerful
| jet engine extant. In spite of that, orders in its home market were
| virtually non existent. So a programme of exporting to the world was
| undertaken, to the USA, France, Australia, Canada. In these cases, the
deal
| was an offer of licence production. Russia, on the other hand, wanted to
buy
| off the shelf, in relatively very small quantities, and with no currency
to
| support the deal, bullion was on offer. This looked attractive to the
| British government, and no one expected the Russians to be able to reverse
| engineer anything as complicated as a state-of-the-art jet turbine, not
| least because of the metallurgy issues involved. Even so, the Government
| asked the military for advice, and were told by General Ismay, Chief of
the
| Defence Staff, that there were no objections to the deal from the Chiefs
of
| Staff. So the sale was sanctioned by the Government. Probably, industry
and
| the military already thought that the forthcoming RR Avon axial flow jet
| would leave the Nene for dead, with a promised thrust rating of 6,000 lb.
|
| It is easy to imply that the sale of the Nene to Russia was at best
| irresponsible, at worst an unpatriotic act by a Socialist government. But
| reality is far more complex. If Atlee's administration is to be judged on
| its whole record, it can be seen that it had defence issues at the centre
of
| its policy, in the enormous effort and cost of developing nuclear weapons
| and the V-bomber force to deliver them. That alone stands incongruously
| opposed to any notion of irresponsibility towards national defence issues,
| implied by the sale of the Nene to Russia.
|
| Graham Salt
|
|
|
On the naming issue, RR has a naming convention for its jet engines, to
name them after rivers in Great Britain (Avon, Tyne, Tay, Trent etc)
suggesting a smooth flow.
--
Cheers
Dave Kearton
George Z. Bush
> "hoarse with no name" <n...@spam.com> wrote in message
> news:no2-CF5411.1...@cnews.newsguy.com...
> On the naming issue, RR has a naming convention for its jet engines, to
> name them after rivers in Great Britain (Avon, Tyne, Tay, Trent etc)
> suggesting a smooth flow.
The nene is a river? And all this while I thought it was a goose, i.e.-a
creature that flies. (^-^)))
George Z.
Dave Kearton
news:10nbika...@corp.supernews.com...
Funnily enough, not far from the Welland...
http://www.waterscape.com/waterwaysguide/waterways/River_Nene/River_Nene.html
--
Cheers
Dave Kearton
George Z. Bush
Lest you think I was making frivilous sport with your river, please take a look
at the state bird of Hawaii. (^-^)))
Dave Kearton
|
|
| Lest you think I was making frivilous sport with your river, please take a
look
| at the state bird of Hawaii. (^-^)))
|
| http://www.thewildones.org/Animals/nene.html
|
|
|
Quite the opposite, naming a succssful jet engine after a goose makes a
lot of sense.
http://swamp.com.au/assets/strips/7053.GIF
Cheers
Dave Kearton
Spag
some birds that were NOT used as tags for A/C or engines. Emu & Ostrich
(possibly?) No Dodos or other extinct varieties allowed.
Unfortunately the list could be endless & some of my eccentric English
acquaintences would no doubt come up with names like tits & boobies. At
least there is the Spruce Goose and Gooney Bird but aren't they US rarities?
No real fowl thing as a Herky bird :)
Spag (currently bored with all the political BS... roll on Tuesday)
"Dave Kearton" <dkearton-with-a-...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in
message news:lEldd.32$3x5....@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
hoarse with no name <n...@spam.com> wrote:
>
>Many descriptions of the MiG-15 claim that the key to its performance
>was the engine, which was a copy of the Nene engine which the British
>willingly sold to the Soviets. Why did the Brits sell the engine? Also,
>why was it called Nene?
The RAF wasn't interested in the Nene, its design was considered
dated (the Nene was centrifugal-flow, the upcoming Avon axial-flow
and much more powerful). And when the RAF and the other services
were consulted about the possible sale no-one objected. So Rolls-
Royce made the sale.
The name: All Rolls-Royce jet engines have "river" names, e.g. Welland,
Derwent, Nene, Avon, Spey, Trent. RR turboprops have river names too
(e.g. Clyde, Dart, Tyne). The exceptions over the last 30-odd years
have been the engines which are now built by RR but were designed
by Bristol-Siddeley, which have classically-derived names (like
all Bristol aero-engines) - Pegasus and Olympus are the current
examples.
--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)
Tamas Feher
(The answer is cash. Money makes the world and turbines go round.)
robert arndt
They sold their engines due to the fact that the US Govt. DEMANDED for
war debt reparation all of Britain's secret weapons technology AND all
captured GERMAN technology.
The Germans told both the Brits and Americans that AXIAL-FLOW engines
were the future and to dump centrifugal engines despite their
short-term potential to deliver more thrust than the avg. German axial
flow engine of WW2 which despite its problems with reliabilty and
endurance was NOT due to its construction but rather the substitute
materials used by the Germans due to Allied bombing of strategic
metals. The Germans therefore developed other alloys and spray on
lubricants to at least keep the "Turbos" running. They did a great job
and even had the world's first afterburning engine (Jumo 004E) and
most powerful jet engine (DB 109-016 @ 28,652 lb st)!
The Brits, however, kept the SS Technical Branch documents and related
components to German disc designs (including engine components) and
moved them to AVRO Canada for further development.
In the meantime, they HAD to sell everything they could to keep the
British economy moving. And in the end, the disc technology ended-up
in US hands once word got out of the AVRO Canada jet disc designs
being engine-tested. This was a Coanda-type large saucer with jet
pipes around the disc perimeter. It is not confirmed if a full size
disc was built but the large circular test stand and engine nozzle
photos exist.
Don't be fooled by the public spectacle of the pathetic AVROCAR which
was a GETOL demonstrator purported to be what was being worked on. In
essence it was just intended as a "flying Jeep" with a cannon mounted
on the rear deck. It was of poor construction and highly unstable;
nevertheless, what the US Army/USAF got involved in the project for
was to investigate and steal the designs of AVRO Canada's 16 OTHER
disc designs of which the AVRO Spade would have been incredible. The
US backed out funding, stole both the designs and AVRO's engineers
back to the US where they worked on US disc programs (headed by Dr,
Richard Miethe) and eventually for NASA. They did the same thing when
the CF-105 Arrow came along later.
What the US Govt. and USAF did to both Britain and Canada is
inexcusable to say the least. That's just ONE reason NOT to divulge
the true history of the German disc programs because that makes us
look bad technology-wise and really shows how well we treated our WW2
Allies postwar. Canada provided the only real source of uranium for
the Manhatten Project until captured German uranium ore stock was
found. Britain for its part had an atomic bomb program BEFORE the US
codenamed TUBE ALLOYS and contributed 44 of their best scientists to
the Manhatten project with all their material because they knew they
could not afford to build such a weapon while fighting the Nazis. How
did we repay Britain? By NOT giving them the secret of the bomb.
Bastards.
Real American history is ugly so that's why so many here cling to the
"official" sanitized version in the history books.
Rob
Tamas Feher
Oh, no. Saucers and pigs fly once again...
Keith Willshaw
"robert arndt" <teut...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:9b35beb1.04102...@posting.google.com...
> "Steven P. McNicoll" <ronca...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:<QHidd.1730$5i5...@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
>> "hoarse with no name" <n...@spam.com> wrote in message
>> news:no2-CF5411.1...@cnews.newsguy.com...
>> >
>> > Many descriptions of the MiG-15 claim that the key to its performance
>> > was the engine, which was a copy of the Nene engine which the British
>> > willingly sold to the Soviets. Why did the Brits sell the engine? Also,
>> > why was it called Nene?
>> >
>>
>> Rolls-Royce named their engines for rivers in Britain.
>
> They sold their engines due to the fact that the US Govt. DEMANDED for
> war debt reparation all of Britain's secret weapons technology AND all
> captured GERMAN technology.
They sold them to the USSR you teutonic twit
Keith
Peter Twydell
<a...@aber.ac.uk> writes
>In article <no2-CF5411.1...@cnews.newsguy.com>,
>hoarse with no name <n...@spam.com> wrote:
>>
>>Many descriptions of the MiG-15 claim that the key to its performance
>>was the engine, which was a copy of the Nene engine which the British
>>willingly sold to the Soviets. Why did the Brits sell the engine? Also,
>>why was it called Nene?
>
>The RAF wasn't interested in the Nene, its design was considered
>dated (the Nene was centrifugal-flow, the upcoming Avon axial-flow
>and much more powerful). And when the RAF and the other services
>were consulted about the possible sale no-one objected. So Rolls-
>Royce made the sale.
>
>The name: All Rolls-Royce jet engines have "river" names, e.g. Welland,
>Derwent, Nene, Avon, Spey, Trent. RR turboprops have river names too
>(e.g. Clyde, Dart, Tyne). The exceptions over the last 30-odd years
>have been the engines which are now built by RR but were designed
>by Bristol-Siddeley, which have classically-derived names (like
>all Bristol aero-engines) - Pegasus and Olympus are the current
>examples.
>
As far as gas turbines are concerned, other companies also had naming
conventions for their products:
de Havilland: Goblin, Ghost, Gyron, Gnome (GE T58); Sprite, Spectre
rockets
Metrovick: Beryl, Sapphire, Gem
Armstrong Siddeley: Mamba, Python, Adder, Viper
Napier: Eland, Gazelle, Oryx; Naiad, Nymph
This continued the conventions used for many years for piston engines,
of course.
--
Peter
Ying tong iddle-i po!
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
Peter Twydell <pe...@twydell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <cl5adl$6q51$1...@central.aber.ac.uk>, ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
><a...@aber.ac.uk> writes
>>The name: All Rolls-Royce jet engines have "river" names, e.g. Welland,
>Probably even less well known is the R-R Soar.
(goes and looks it up, nods). That was a river name as well, of course;
http://www.waterscape.com/waterwaysguide/waterways/River_Soar/River_Soar.html
>As far as gas turbines are concerned, other companies also had naming
>conventions for their products:
>de Havilland: Goblin, Ghost, Gyron, Gnome (GE T58); Sprite, Spectre
>rockets
>Metrovick: Beryl, Sapphire, Gem
>Armstrong Siddeley: Mamba, Python, Adder, Viper
>Napier: Eland, Gazelle, Oryx; Naiad, Nymph
>
>This continued the conventions used for many years for piston engines,
>of course.
Well, RR had favoured fowls for their recips., A-S had used mammal names,
not reptiles for their radials (Cheetah, for example) and Napier had used
weapons (Culverin, Dagger, Sabre) and then wandered off into the distance
with that turbine-recip. combination, the Nomad. Bristol are the obvious
case of a continuous sequence of names, starting with Hermes and Mercury
(the same guy, surely?) when they took over Cosmos in 1919 or so,
progressing through Pegasus, Perseus, Hercules and Centaurus to the
Orion, then on through Proteus to Pegasus (again) and Olympus (which
could be counted as the whole lot all gethered together ;)
Tony Lewis
wrote:
>In article <T$3DHVC1k...@ntlworld.com>,
>Peter Twydell <pe...@twydell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>In article <cl5adl$6q51$1...@central.aber.ac.uk>, ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
>><a...@aber.ac.uk> writes
>>>>why was it called Nene?
>
>>>The name: All Rolls-Royce jet engines have "river" names, e.g. Welland,
>
>>Probably even less well known is the R-R Soar.
>
>(goes and looks it up, nods). That was a river name as well, of course;
^^^ still
is the last time I crossed it :)
--
TonyL
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
Tony Lewis <intot...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On 20 Oct 2004 12:34:43 +0100, a...@aber.ac.uk (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN)
>wrote:
>>
>>(goes and looks it up, nods). That was a river name as well, of course;
> ^^^ still
>is the last time I crossed it :)
Hmm. The river is still present, but the engine isn't ;)
George Z. Bush
"Tamas Feher" <eto...@freemail.hu> wrote in message
news:cl5adm$5kl$1...@proxy.interware.hu...
> Why did the USA sell the DC-3 airplane to the Soviets?
>
> (The answer is cash. Money makes the world and turbines go round.)
I'm not sure that we sold aircraft to them....I was under the impression that
Douglas licensed them to build their own copies. Anybody know for sure?
George Z.
Greg Hennessy
<keit...@kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> They sold their engines due to the fact that the US Govt. DEMANDED for
>> war debt reparation all of Britain's secret weapons technology AND all
>> captured GERMAN technology.
>
>They sold them to the USSR you teutonic twit
>
He's as bright as a box of boulders that one.
--
The conch signal!
To the invisible boatmobile, away!
Keith Willshaw
"George Z. Bush" <georg...@charter.net.nospam> wrote in message
The Soviets built the DC3 under license as the Li-2
as did the Japanese (called the Showa L2D)
Keith
George Ruch
>On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 11:35:16 +0100, "Keith Willshaw"
><keit...@kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>> They sold their engines due to the fact that the US Govt. DEMANDED for
>>> war debt reparation all of Britain's secret weapons technology AND all
>>> captured GERMAN technology.
>>
>>They sold them to the USSR you teutonic twit
>
>He's as bright as a box of boulders that one.
Boulder Anti-Defamation Society on line 1. Box Anti-Defamation League on
line 2.
| George Ruch
| "Is there life in Clovis after Clovis Man?"
George Z. Bush
Thank you. I guess my marbles are still functioning and not yet totally
befogged.
(^-^)))
George Z.
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
George Ruch <georg...@3lefties.com> wrote:
>Greg Hennessy <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 11:35:16 +0100, "Keith Willshaw"
>><keit...@kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> They sold their engines due to the fact that the US Govt. DEMANDED for
>>>> war debt reparation all of Britain's secret weapons technology AND all
>>>> captured GERMAN technology.
>>>
>>>They sold them to the USSR you teutonic twit
>>
>>He's as bright as a box of boulders that one.
>
>Boulder Anti-Defamation Society on line 1. Box Anti-Defamation League on
>line 2.
Expect a call from the Silicon anti-defamation league.
I suspect that you'd have to heat the average troll up a very
great deal - perhaps eight days at gas mark 7 - before it
became as stupid as "tueton"
Peter Stickney
Bristol - Olympus Orpheus, Orion, Proteus
--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
Peter Stickney <pe...@Mineshaft.local> wrote:
>
>Bristol - Olympus Orpheus, Orion, Proteus
I've always liked the description of the double-Proteus - by
one of the designers, IIRC. Something along the lines of:
"We set out to design the engine with the lowest possible
specific fuel consumption, without regard for weight or
complexity, and we acheived two out of three of these
goals"
Not, perhaps, Bristol's finest moment.
--
Andy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales....
Nieveler's law: "Any USENET thread, if sufficiently prolonged and not
Godwinated, will eventually turn into a discussion about
alcoholic drinks."
Ken Duffey
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN wrote:
>
> The name: All Rolls-Royce jet engines have "river" names,
So, where's the river RB-211 then ??? Eh ?? <g>
Ken
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
Don't think original-RB211 ever got a name, but the latest
iterations are Trents :)
Peter Twydell
Roy Fedden was the original designer and eventually left the company in
1942.
The first engine was the Cosmos Mercury when Cosmos took over the
Bristol Straker works in 1918. The Jupiter of 1919 became the world's
leading engine in 1925 after Bristol bough the bankrupt company back in
1920. Bill Gunston's Aero Engines book says more than 7100 Jupiters were
built by 17 foreign licensees in ten years, powering at least 262 types
of aircraft.
It's a good job the ABC Dragonfly (preceded by the Wasp and followed by
the Gnat and Hornet) was a failure, otherwise we'd probably have had
names like Bumblebee, Ichneumon and even Bluebottle! (see sig)
Peter Twydell
<a...@aber.ac.uk> writes
>In article <r8q5lc...@Mineshaft.local>,
>Peter Stickney <pe...@Mineshaft.local> wrote:
>>
>>Bristol - Olympus Orpheus, Orion, Proteus
>
>I've always liked the description of the double-Proteus - by
>one of the designers, IIRC. Something along the lines of:
>"We set out to design the engine with the lowest possible
>specific fuel consumption, without regard for weight or
>complexity, and we acheived two out of three of these
>goals"
>
>Not, perhaps, Bristol's finest moment.
>
handed over to Stanley Hooker. "... regardless of weight and bulk. So
far we have achieved the weight and bulk." Great story. Details of early
versions of the Proteus suggest it was an absolute disaster. Fortunately
for Bristol, Hooker redesigned it and got it sorted. Many were used in
warships and for electricity generation, apart from powering the
Britannia.
W. D. Allen Sr.
Soviet Mig-15 and the US Navy Grumman F9F-2 Panther.
WDA
end
"hoarse with no name" <n...@spam.com> wrote in message
news:no2-CF5411.1...@cnews.newsguy.com...
>
> Many descriptions of the MiG-15 claim that the key to its performance
> was the engine, which was a copy of the Nene engine which the British
> willingly sold to the Soviets. Why did the Brits sell the engine? Also,
ibm
W. D. Allen Sr. wrote:
> I remember being told that the same engine design was in the Korean War
> Soviet Mig-15 and the US Navy Grumman F9F-2 Panther.
Cause Stafford Cripps( or was it Duncan Sandys ) was a
Commie IIRC.
> WDA
>
> end
>
> "hoarse with no name" <n...@spam.com> wrote in message
> news:no2-CF5411.1...@cnews.newsguy.com...
>
>>Many descriptions of the MiG-15 claim that the key to its performance
>>was the engine, which was a copy of the Nene engine which the British
>>willingly sold to the Soviets. Why did the Brits sell the engine? Also,
>>why was it called Nene?
Rolls-Royce names their jet engines after English rivers.
Derwent
Spey
Avon
Trent
Nene
etc.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
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George Ruch
>In article <pcrcn0dh2f13gudhf...@4ax.com>,
>George Ruch <georg...@3lefties.com> wrote:
>>Greg Hennessy <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 11:35:16 +0100, "Keith Willshaw"
>>><keit...@kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> They sold their engines due to the fact that the US Govt. DEMANDED for
>>>>> war debt reparation all of Britain's secret weapons technology AND all
>>>>> captured GERMAN technology.
>>>>
>>>>They sold them to the USSR you teutonic twit
>>>
>>>He's as bright as a box of boulders that one.
>>
>>Boulder Anti-Defamation Society on line 1. Box Anti-Defamation League on
>>line 2.
>
>Expect a call from the Silicon anti-defamation league.
>
>I suspect that you'd have to heat the average troll up a very
>great deal - perhaps eight days at gas mark 7 - before it
>became as stupid as "tueton"
Aside from being a complete waste of good gas, why would anyone in their
right mind... oh, never mind.
Steve Hix
"Keith Willshaw" <keit...@kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
He's more than usually in the ozone today...
Steve Hix
a...@aber.ac.uk (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN) wrote:
> In article <r8q5lc...@Mineshaft.local>,
> Peter Stickney <pe...@Mineshaft.local> wrote:
> >
> >Bristol - Olympus Orpheus, Orion, Proteus
>
> I've always liked the description of the double-Proteus - by
> one of the designers, IIRC. Something along the lines of:
> "We set out to design the engine with the lowest possible
> specific fuel consumption, without regard for weight or
> complexity, and we acheived two out of three of these
> goals"
>
> Not, perhaps, Bristol's finest moment.
Certainly a highwater mark for pellucid truthfulness in the description,
though.
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
W. D. Allen Sr. <ball...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>I remember being told that the same engine design was in the Korean War
>Soviet Mig-15 and the US Navy Grumman F9F-2 Panther.
Also in the Hawker Sea Hawk and at least one French design - and
wasn't the Nene used in the SAAB Tunnen too?
I wonder which was the last Nene (or Nene-clone)-powered aeroplane
to fly: the Indian Sea Hawks lasted into the middle 1980s.
Greg Hennessy
>
>
>W. D. Allen Sr. wrote:
>
>> I remember being told that the same engine design was in the Korean War
>> Soviet Mig-15 and the US Navy Grumman F9F-2 Panther.
>
> Cause Stafford Cripps( or was it Duncan Sandys ) was a
> Commie IIRC.
Cripps. A millionaire one, the worst sort.
greg
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
Greg Hennessy <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>On 20 Oct 2004 19:43:12 GMT, ibm <i...@svpal.org> wrote:
>>
>>W. D. Allen Sr. wrote:
>>
>>> I remember being told that the same engine design was in the Korean War
>>> Soviet Mig-15 and the US Navy Grumman F9F-2 Panther.
>>
>> Cause Stafford Cripps( or was it Duncan Sandys ) was a
>> Commie IIRC.
Cripps? Not a Communist, and never had been one. Like many members of
the Atlee government, _seriously_ anti-communist.
Sandys was a Tory, and thus kept safely away from the levers of power
at the time. His turn came in the 1950s, when he abolished the manned
warplane.
The engine was sold because the RAF didn't want it and because all
the service advice was that the technology was outdated - and because
it wasn't believed the Soviets could reverse-engineer it.
Ken Duffey
> In article <NIadncJuCNw...@adelphia.com>,
> W. D. Allen Sr. <ball...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>>I remember being told that the same engine design was in the Korean War
>>Soviet Mig-15 and the US Navy Grumman F9F-2 Panther.
>
>
> Also in the Hawker Sea Hawk and at least one French design - and
> wasn't the Nene used in the SAAB Tunnen too?
>
> I wonder which was the last Nene (or Nene-clone)-powered aeroplane
> to fly: the Indian Sea Hawks lasted into the middle 1980s.
>
They are STILL in use on Russian airfields - mounted on lorries to blow
away snow & rain - see my photos of it - scroll down to almost the
bottom of the page at :-
http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/models_pages/mos2004_day03.html
Ken
Ken Duffey
> In article <cl63db$bi0$2...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> Ken Duffey <kend...@su27man.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>>ANDREW ROBERT BREEN wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The name: All Rolls-Royce jet engines have "river" names,
>>
>>So, where's the river RB-211 then ??? Eh ?? <g>
>
>
> Don't think original-RB211 ever got a name, but the latest
> iterations are Trents :)
>
And thats the second use of that name - remember the Trent Meteor ??
A turboprop variant of the Nene (or was it Derwent ??)
Another RR 'River' that often gets forgotten is the Conway - used on the
Victor, VC-10 and some BOA 707's.
Ken
Emmanuel Gustin
news:cl5adl$6q51$1...@central.aber.ac.uk...
> The RAF wasn't interested in the Nene, its design was considered
> dated (the Nene was centrifugal-flow, the upcoming Avon axial-flow
> and much more powerful). And when the RAF and the other services
> were consulted about the possible sale no-one objected. So Rolls-
> Royce made the sale.
Actually, if I remember correctly, RR was the only one
to object. The sale of Nene and Derwent engines was a
government decision, as part of a September 1946 trade
agreement between Britain and the USSR. Rolls-Royce
apparently didn't like the ease with which the government
shared its technology (in the end almost everybody flew
Nene-powered fighters, except the RAF).
--
Emmanuel Gustin
Emmanuel dot Gustin @t skynet dot be
Flying Guns Books and Site: http://users.skynet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
Ken Duffey <kend...@su27man.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>ANDREW ROBERT BREEN wrote:
>
>> In article <cl63db$bi0$2...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>,
>> Ken Duffey <kend...@su27man.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>ANDREW ROBERT BREEN wrote:
>>>>The name: All Rolls-Royce jet engines have "river" names,
>>>
>>>So, where's the river RB-211 then ??? Eh ?? <g>
>>
>> Don't think original-RB211 ever got a name, but the latest
>> iterations are Trents :)
>
>And thats the second use of that name - remember the Trent Meteor ??
>A turboprop variant of the Nene (or was it Derwent ??)
Derwent, IIRC - or could even have been the Welland. I don't _think_
the Nene was ever inserted into the Meat-box, though given the number
of things which were...
I had thought of that one, but decided to leave it out in the interests of
simplicity. Wasn't it the only turboprop which delivered more power
via the jet efflux than the prop? First turboprop of all, too..
>Another RR 'River' that often gets forgotten is the Conway - used on the
>Victor, VC-10 and some BOA 707's.
Not sure how I forgot that one. First production turbofan - and the most
wonderful noise..
Jonathan Stilwell
"Ken Duffey" <kend...@su27man.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cl6kaa$aml$2...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
> ANDREW ROBERT BREEN wrote:
>
> > In article <cl63db$bi0$2...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> > Ken Duffey <kend...@su27man.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> >>ANDREW ROBERT BREEN wrote:
> >>>The name: All Rolls-Royce jet engines have "river" names,
> >>So, where's the river RB-211 then ??? Eh ?? <g>
> > Don't think original-RB211 ever got a name, but the latest
> > iterations are Trents :)
Apparently the RB211 was originally called the Hudson (presumably due to the
American connection to the Tri Star). Didn't stick, though.
> And thats the second use of that name - remember the Trent Meteor ??
To be pedantic, it's at least the third, the second being a small three
shaft engine for a proposed Fairchild regional jet. Didn't get very far.
>>A turboprop variant of the Nene (or was it Derwent ??)
>Derwent, IIRC - or could even have been the Welland. I don't _think_
>the Nene was ever inserted into the Meat-box, though given the number
>of things which were...
The Trent turboprop was based on the Derwent. As for the Nene, a pair were
fitted to one Meteor, RA490, a much-modified Mk.3 used for jet deflection
testing.
>>Another RR 'River' that often gets forgotten is the Conway - used on the
>>Victor, VC-10 and some BOA 707's.
All of the 707-400 series, plus some early DC-8s as well. And would have
been used on the Vickers VC-7 / V-1000, had it got anywhere.
>Not sure how I forgot that one. First production turbofan - and the most
>wonderful noise..
So wonderful, indeed, that it must be shared with anyone within a large
radius. Nice.
Anyway, back to the original question, anyone wanting a more authoritative
account of Britain selling jet engines to the Russians could try going to:
http://www.rolls-royce.com/history/publications/historical4.jsp
And asking nicely if they can buy a copy of the Rolls-Royce Heritage Trust's
Historical Series Number 33, "Early Russian Jet Engines, the Nene and
Derwent in the Soviet Union, and the evolution of the VK-1" ISBN 1 872922 25
2 (It hasn't turned up on the list of publications on the website yet).
Jon.
Jonathan Stilwell
"Keith Willshaw" <keit...@kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:41763...@127.0.0.1...
> >> > Many descriptions of the MiG-15 claim that the key to its performance
> >> > was the engine, which was a copy of the Nene engine which the British
> >> > willingly sold to the Soviets. Why did the Brits sell the engine?
Also,
> >> > why was it called Nene?
> >>
> >> Rolls-Royce named their engines for rivers in Britain.
> >
> > They sold their engines due to the fact that the US Govt. DEMANDED for
> > war debt reparation all of Britain's secret weapons technology AND all
> > captured GERMAN technology.
>
> They sold them to the USSR you teutonic twit
>
Well, Germany did get the Nene eventually, with their Hawker Sea Hawks. In
1958.
Jon.
Peter Twydell
<i...@svpal.org> writes
>
>
>W. D. Allen Sr. wrote:
>
>> I remember being told that the same engine design was in the Korean
>>War Soviet Mig-15 and the US Navy Grumman F9F-2 Panther.
>
> Cause Stafford Cripps( or was it Duncan Sandys ) was a
> Commie IIRC.
>
>> WDA
>> end
>> "hoarse with no name" <n...@spam.com> wrote in message
>>news:no2-CF5411.1...@cnews.newsguy.com...
>>
>>>Many descriptions of the MiG-15 claim that the key to its performance
>>>was the engine, which was a copy of the Nene engine which the British
>>>willingly sold to the Soviets. Why did the Brits sell the engine? Also,
>>>why was it called Nene?
>
> Rolls-Royce names their jet engines after English rivers.
>
> Derwent
> Spey
> Avon
> Trent
> Nene
> etc.
>
>
Last time I looked, the Spey was in Scotland, as was the Clyde! The
Conway wasn't in England either.
Peter Stickney
Those are VK-1s, aren't they. In that case, they've got the same
reationship to the Nene that the Rolls Tay, P&W J48, and Hispano-Suiza
Verdon have - they're bigger engines to the same concept. (ANd close
to the same form factor.
The Canadair Silver Star, the Canadian version of the T-33, has a Nene
instead of a J33. Are there any of those still in service? If they
were finally retired, it wasn't too long ago.
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
Jonathan Stilwell <j...@teamonster.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>"Ken Duffey" <kend...@su27man.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:cl6kaa$aml$2...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
>> ANDREW ROBERT BREEN wrote:
>>
>> > In article <cl63db$bi0$2...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>,
>> > Ken Duffey <kend...@su27man.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>> >>ANDREW ROBERT BREEN wrote:
>> >>>The name: All Rolls-Royce jet engines have "river" names,
>
>> >>So, where's the river RB-211 then ??? Eh ?? <g>
>
>> > Don't think original-RB211 ever got a name, but the latest
>> > iterations are Trents :)
>
>Apparently the RB211 was originally called the Hudson (presumably due to the
>American connection to the Tri Star). Didn't stick, though.
Now that I didn't know. Fascinating - and thank you.
>> And thats the second use of that name - remember the Trent Meteor ??
>
>To be pedantic, it's at least the third, the second being a small three
>shaft engine for a proposed Fairchild regional jet. Didn't get very far.
Didn't know about that one either. Time toi buy more books ;)
>>>A turboprop variant of the Nene (or was it Derwent ??)
>>Derwent, IIRC - or could even have been the Welland. I don't _think_
>>the Nene was ever inserted into the Meat-box, though given the number
>>of things which were...
>
>The Trent turboprop was based on the Derwent. As for the Nene, a pair were
>fitted to one Meteor, RA490, a much-modified Mk.3 used for jet deflection
>testing.
I should have remembered about that fitting - I've seen enough pictures of
the beast.
>>>Another RR 'River' that often gets forgotten is the Conway - used on the
>>>Victor, VC-10 and some BOA 707's.
>
>All of the 707-400 series, plus some early DC-8s as well. And would have
>been used on the Vickers VC-7 / V-1000, had it got anywhere.
>
>>Not sure how I forgot that one. First production turbofan - and the most
>>wonderful noise..
>
>So wonderful, indeed, that it must be shared with anyone within a large
>radius. Nice.
:)
Many thanks for that info - and for the pointers
--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Who dies with the most toys wins" (Gary Barnes)
Greg Hennessy
<kend...@su27man.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>They are STILL in use on Russian airfields - mounted on lorries to blow
>away snow & rain - see my photos of it - scroll down to almost the
>bottom of the page at :-
>http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/models_pages/mos2004_day03.html
Ear defenders would not be optional when driving that apparition.
Greg Hennessy
>In article <oigdn0hddr82vln7b...@4ax.com>,
>Greg Hennessy <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>On 20 Oct 2004 19:43:12 GMT, ibm <i...@svpal.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>W. D. Allen Sr. wrote:
>>>
>>>> I remember being told that the same engine design was in the Korean War
>>>> Soviet Mig-15 and the US Navy Grumman F9F-2 Panther.
>>>
>>> Cause Stafford Cripps( or was it Duncan Sandys ) was a
>>> Commie IIRC.
>
>Cripps? Not a Communist, and never had been one.
His activities in the lead up to ww2 would suggest otherwise.
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
He did urge the formation of an anti-fascist popular front which
would include the communists - but who would say that was wrong.
It is, after all, pretty much what happened in the end on
the global scale between the UK, the US and the USSR and
it did deliver us from Fascism.
Cripps was an evangelical christian socialist - a rare breed now,
but much more common then. As such he had views which overlapped
with those of communists, but he was certainly never a communist
himself (and would certainly have been amongst the first against
the wall in the event of a moscow-indluenced communist government).
Now, /my/ family, in the same time-frame - they /were/ communists :)
--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
The Raven
news:no2-CF5411.1...@cnews.newsguy.com...
>
> Many descriptions of the MiG-15 claim that the key to its performance
> was the engine, which was a copy of the Nene engine which the British
> willingly sold to the Soviets. Why did the Brits sell the engine? Also,
> why was it called Nene?
One program I saw claimed that the Soviets did not so much as buy the Nene
engine but won it in a pool game. The losers didn't see the significance or
notice how hard the Soviets had been in collecting information on it.
One example was a Soviet delegation visiting the production line. Key
delegates wore shoes with very soft soles so as to pick up swarf from the
factory floor. Analysing the swarf would then identify the composition of
the metal used in key components (presumably the turbine blades).
--
The Raven
http://www.80scartoons.co.uk/batfinkquote.mp3
** Now I will bring chaos to the world!
Keith Willshaw
"The Raven" <swils...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:41778aea$0$10349$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> "hoarse with no name" <n...@spam.com> wrote in message
> news:no2-CF5411.1...@cnews.newsguy.com...
>>
>> Many descriptions of the MiG-15 claim that the key to its performance
>> was the engine, which was a copy of the Nene engine which the British
>> willingly sold to the Soviets. Why did the Brits sell the engine? Also,
>> why was it called Nene?
>
> One program I saw claimed that the Soviets did not so much as buy the Nene
> engine but won it in a pool game. The losers didn't see the significance
> or notice how hard the Soviets had been in collecting information on it.
>
An inaccurate description. They bought 10 as I recall under the
terms of the 1946 Anglo-Soviet Trade Agreement
> One example was a Soviet delegation visiting the production line. Key
> delegates wore shoes with very soft soles so as to pick up swarf from the
> factory floor. Analysing the swarf would then identify the composition of
> the metal used in key components (presumably the turbine blades).
>
>
I rather think the Nene used forged turbine blades
Keith
Greg Hennessy
>In article <6tuen0hpo57cin2hb...@4ax.com>,
>Greg Hennessy <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>On 20 Oct 2004 21:50:00 +0100, a...@aber.ac.uk (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN) wrote:
>>
>>>Cripps? Not a Communist, and never had been one.
>>
>>His activities in the lead up to ww2 would suggest otherwise.
>
>He did urge the formation of an anti-fascist popular front which
>would include the communists - but who would say that was wrong.
Those would be the communists who sabotaged the war effort on Moscows
orders until 22nd June 1941.
Strange bedfellows for an 'anti fascist' popular front.
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
Greg Hennessy <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>On 21 Oct 2004 11:04:34 +0100, a...@aber.ac.uk (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN) wrote:
>>He did urge the formation of an anti-fascist popular front which
>>would include the communists - but who would say that was wrong.
>
>Those would be the communists who sabotaged the war effort on Moscows
>orders until 22nd June 1941.
Only after the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact in 1939 - which was signed /after/
various attempts to form a popular fronts had fallen through.
Even after the pact was signed and Moscow changed tack the deal was far
from universally accepted by communist parties - and members - elsewhere.
There were splits in the communist movement in Britain, for example,
and my father - a good communist in 1939 - would no doubt have been
interested to hear how his joining the Navy, standing guard on the beaches
the night Cromwell was sounded and serving in the Atlantic convoys
was sabotaging the war effort - and he was far from alone, even from
his street in his village.
Cripps was involved in the attempt to put an anti-fascist front together,
rightly seeing fascism as a much worse threat than communism. As soon
as Moscow betrayed the anti-fascist cause we was agin it.
The man was a christian socialist, not a communist.
--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
Mike Zaharis
> > delegates wore shoes with very soft soles so as to pick up swarf from the
> > factory floor. Analysing the swarf would then identify the composition of
> > the metal used in key components (presumably the turbine blades).
> >
> >
>
> I rather think the Nene used forged turbine blades
>
> Keith
I don't remember for certain from my days at P&W, but even with a
forged blade (now these days turbine blades are most often cast),
wouldn't they need to cut/grind the "Christmas tree" attachment?
Ken Duffey
I spoke to one of the ground crew of the recently restored Hawker Sea
Hawk at RNAS Yeovilton and mentioned that if they needed spare engines,
there were plenty of RD-45's in Russia.
He replied that there was no need - there was a plentiful supply of
spares in Canada.
Ken
robert arndt
> > war debt reparation all of Britain's secret weapons technology AND all
> > captured GERMAN technology.
>
> They sold them to the USSR you teutonic twit
>
No, the US got the Nene first under pressured license from TTC and
then pressured more to have the license transferred over to Pratt &
Whitney for the later Panther and Cougars.
Besides, my emphasis in the post was to demonstrate that with all the
demands placed upon Britain after the war for reparations, certain
military agreements and exchanges were made to ease Britain's burden.
Britain, however, DID NOT fully cooperate with the US with regards to
German technology. Plessey continued to work on German stealth, before
the US and Britain moved its German disc efforts over to AVRO Canada.
I think it was you who asked why they didn't move the disc stuff to
more remote locations like the Falkland Islands. I'll tell you why.
First of all, the Falklands is a large open rock field with no place
to build secure facilties or camouflage. Second, the Falklands is near
the tip of S. America and that is where the US WAS in the immediate
years after WW2- searching for S. American (especially Argentine)
connections and bases for Thule/Vril tech. That is the LAST place
Britain would have sent that type of technology. Canada was a much
safer bet with secure facilites above and BELOW ground. It took the US
years to learn about AVRO Canada's 16 disc designs based on Britain's
supplied documents and components.
It's too bad the US Govt. and USAF interfered with their programs
because the AVRO Spade would have been an awesome aircraft as would
the more practical early version of WS-606A.
Rob
Keith Willshaw
>> > war debt reparation all of Britain's secret weapons technology AND all
>> > captured GERMAN technology.
>>
>> They sold them to the USSR you teutonic twit
>>
>> Keith
>
> No, the US got the Nene first under pressured license from TTC and
> then pressured more to have the license transferred over to Pratt &
> Whitney for the later Panther and Cougars.
Incorrect, as usual, no pressure was needed, Rolls Royce and
HMG were very glad of the dollar income. It was also built
under license in Australia and France.
What pressure do you think they brought to bear ?
> Besides, my emphasis in the post was to demonstrate that with all the
> demands placed upon Britain after the war for reparations,
Feel free to detail these 'reparations' . I recall rather substantial
sums of Marshall Aid flowing the other way.
> certain
> military agreements and exchanges were made to ease Britain's burden.
Its called selling stuff old boy and its generally thought to be a
good thing when one can make money from exports.
> Britain, however, DID NOT fully cooperate with the US with regards to
> German technology. Plessey continued to work on German stealth, before
> the US and Britain moved its German disc efforts over to AVRO Canada.
> I think it was you who asked why they didn't move the disc stuff to
> more remote locations like the Falkland Islands. I'll tell you why.
> First of all, the Falklands is a large open rock field with no place
> to build secure facilties or camouflage. Second, the Falklands is near
> the tip of S. America and that is where the US WAS in the immediate
> years after WW2- searching for S. American (especially Argentine)
> connections and bases for Thule/Vril tech. That is the LAST place
> Britain would have sent that type of technology. Canada was a much
> safer bet with secure facilites above and BELOW ground. It took the US
> years to learn about AVRO Canada's 16 disc designs based on Britain's
> supplied documents and components.
Hardly since Avro Canada approached the USAF for funding
in since the Britush government showed no interest
at all in the program
> It's too bad the US Govt. and USAF interfered with their programs
> because the AVRO Spade would have been an awesome aircraft as would
> the more practical early version of WS-606A.
>
Well considering they provided 100% of the funding they
were entitled to 'interfere'
Keith
ian maclure
[snip]
> I'm not sure that we sold aircraft to them....I was under the impression that
> Douglas licensed them to build their own copies. Anybody know for sure?
As the Lisunov Li-2 IIRC.
IBM
_______________________________________________________________________________
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ian maclure
[snip]
> I suspect that you'd have to heat the average troll up a very
> great deal - perhaps eight days at gas mark 7 - before it
> became as stupid as "tueton"
And that would be pronounce how?
"Twiton" perhaps.
ian maclure
[snip]
> I wonder which was the last Nene (or Nene-clone)-powered aeroplane
> to fly: the Indian Sea Hawks lasted into the middle 1980s.
Isn't the T-33 of that ilk?
An Allison J-33, same as the Panther.
ian maclure
[snip]
> Another RR 'River' that often gets forgotten is the Conway - used on the
> Victor, VC-10 and some BOA 707's.
Trans Canada Airlines' DC-8-40's were Conway powered.
ian maclure
[snip]
> English? You'll get into trouble with the Caledonians, among others.
> Last time I looked, the Spey was in Scotland, as was the Clyde! The
> Conway wasn't in England either.
Oops, my bad.
Spey, Clyde definitely north of the border.
Conway in Wales IIRC as is the Soar I believe.
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
ian maclure <i...@svpal.org> wrote:
>On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 23:35:26 +0000, Peter Twydell wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> English? You'll get into trouble with the Caledonians, among others.
>> Last time I looked, the Spey was in Scotland, as was the Clyde! The
>> Conway wasn't in England either.
>
> Oops, my bad.
> Spey, Clyde definitely north of the border.
> Conway in Wales IIRC as is the Soar I believe.
Biggest River Soar is in Leicestershire. I don't thin k even the most
militant advocates of Cymru Fawr are laying claim to Leicestershire.
No cider orchards, for one thing.
Plenty of chapels and houses called Soar though - there's one a couple
of hundred m up the road from me :)
--
Andy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales....
Nieveler's law: "Any USENET thread, if sufficiently prolonged and not
Godwinated, will eventually turn into a discussion about
alcoholic drinks."
Ken Duffey
The US SOLD to the Soviet Union -
2 x Lockheed Model 10A Electras,
a Martin M-139WR,
a Martin M-156 Clipper,
a Norhrop Gamma 2E,
a Vultee V-1A Special,
4 x Vultee V-11-GB,
a DC-2,
21 x DC-3's,
2 x Douglas DF flying boats,
a Douglas O-38F,
2 x Consolidated 17AF Fleetsters,
3 x Consolidated Model 28 flying boats (GST or PBY).
These were all SALES - they also sold licensing rights for the DC-3 & GST.
The high moral ground goes out of the window where money is concerned.....
Ken
Jack
> The US SOLD to the Soviet Union -
>
> 2 x Lockheed Model 10A Electras,
> a Martin M-139WR,
> a Martin M-156 Clipper,
> a Norhrop Gamma 2E,
> a Vultee V-1A Special,
> 4 x Vultee V-11-GB,
> a DC-2,
> 21 x DC-3's,
> 2 x Douglas DF flying boats,
> a Douglas O-38F,
> 2 x Consolidated 17AF Fleetsters,
> 3 x Consolidated Model 28 flying boats (GST or PBY).
>
> These were all SALES - they also sold licensing rights for the DC-3 & GST.
>
> The high moral ground goes out of the window where money is concerned....
And these sales occured when -- while Russia was an ally of the US,
perhaps? The cold war is now over: future cooperation is also likely.
Jack
Peter Stickney
The 1930s, actually, well before the War. The Soviets, via Amtorg,
(Nominally a ommercial import/export venture, but actually an arm of
the Intelligence Services of the CPSU) were putting in a fairly
serious effort to get their hands on as much Western technology as
they could. (Although what they'd get from an O-38 I don't know.)
They weren't ever shy about reverse engineering other people's
products back then, either. The early version of the I-16 fighter,
for example, were powered by cloned Wroght R1820s. They also copied
the German 37mm Antitank gun, as well. (So did the U.S., for that
matter).
The Germans weren't the only ones doing this - the Japanese bought
Junkers G.38 airliners from the Germans, Fiat Br.20 bombers from
theItalians (And used tham in the Nomonhan Incident, the mini-war
between the Japanese and Soviets in 1939), Douglas an Lockheed
transports, some Seversky fighters, the original DC-4E, and a failed
Vultee fighter prototype.
Everybody copied the Hamilton Standard HYdromatic constant speed
propeller.
The Brits used a Heinkel 70 as a testbed for the Merlin, the Bf 109
was originally flown with a Rolls Kestrel engine, and the South
Africans flew Ju 86 bombers.
Peter Stickney
"ian maclure" <i...@svpal.org> writes:
> On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 21:26:45 +0100, ANDREW ROBERT BREEN wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> I wonder which was the last Nene (or Nene-clone)-powered aeroplane
>> to fly: the Indian Sea Hawks lasted into the middle 1980s.
>
> Isn't the T-33 of that ilk?
> An Allison J-33, same as the Panther.
The J33 wasn't related to the Nene. They shared a common ancestor -
the original Whittle W.1, but the family trees diverged about 1942 or
so, when GE started designing their own centrifugal-compressor jet
engines. The J33 _was_ the inspiration for the Nene, however.
Stanley Hooker visited the U.S., and GE, in the Spring of 1944, and
discovered that they were running 2 engines (The J33 and J35) that
were twice as powerful as anything running from Rolls at the time. He
decided that in order to meet postwar market needs, they'd better have
a J33 competitor, so they ginned up the Nene.
In the 1950s, Canadair built the Silver Star as the RCAF's jet
trainer. This was a T-33 with a Nene. (ANd a damned good airplane -
all the fun of a T-33, with a bit more power, and an easier startup
sequence.
Ken Duffey
And the Nene sales occurred when -- while the Soviet Union was an ally
of the UK, perhaps ??
They had just fought alongside us - and the US and other allies - in WWII.
The cold war had not yet started.
Ken
Dave Eadsforth
<a...@aber.ac.uk> writes
>In article <pm7fn0liadsfgvbka...@4ax.com>,
>Greg Hennessy <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>On 21 Oct 2004 11:04:34 +0100, a...@aber.ac.uk (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN) wrote:
>>>He did urge the formation of an anti-fascist popular front which
>>>would include the communists - but who would say that was wrong.
>>
>>Those would be the communists who sabotaged the war effort on Moscows
>>orders until 22nd June 1941.
>
>Only after the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact in 1939 - which was signed /after/
>various attempts to form a popular fronts had fallen through.
>
>Even after the pact was signed and Moscow changed tack the deal was far
>from universally accepted by communist parties - and members - elsewhere.
>There were splits in the communist movement in Britain, for example,
>and my father - a good communist in 1939 - would no doubt have been
>interested to hear how his joining the Navy, standing guard on the beaches
>the night Cromwell was sounded and serving in the Atlantic convoys
>was sabotaging the war effort - and he was far from alone, even from
>his street in his village.
>
>Cripps was involved in the attempt to put an anti-fascist front together,
>rightly seeing fascism as a much worse threat than communism. As soon
>as Moscow betrayed the anti-fascist cause we was agin it.
>The man was a christian socialist, not a communist.
>
in the thick of things when Hitler invaded. He was one of many who had
high hopes of the Soviet Union and looked to closer relations with it.
Giving the SU jet technology was the kind of gesture that was thought to
generate a payback in due course. It did, but of the wrong kind.
On the plus side, Cripps was a superb Minister of Aircraft Production
from November 1942 until the end of the war. Having been a scientist he
was able to make quality decisions on how to maximise production of the
right kit (just as in WWI he had made the UK production of sulphuric
acid the cheapest in the world).
Verdict: a good man whose nature caused him to trust the wrong people.
Cheers,
Dave
--
Dave Eadsforth
Brett
March 5, 1946 Churchill delivered his "Iron Curtain Speech" at a college in
Missouri - so the "cold war" had already started by the time the Trade
Agreement that gave the Nene and the Derwent to the Russians was completed
in September 1946.
Peter Twydell
<da...@magnum.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <cl8ebr$cqeo$1...@central.aber.ac.uk>, ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
><a...@aber.ac.uk> writes
>>In article <pm7fn0liadsfgvbka...@4ax.com>,
>>Greg Hennessy <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>On 21 Oct 2004 11:04:34 +0100, a...@aber.ac.uk (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN) wrote:
>>>>He did urge the formation of an anti-fascist popular front which
>>>>would include the communists - but who would say that was wrong.
>>>
>>>Those would be the communists who sabotaged the war effort on Moscows
>>>orders until 22nd June 1941.
>>
>>Only after the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact in 1939 - which was signed /after/
>>various attempts to form a popular fronts had fallen through.
>>
>>Even after the pact was signed and Moscow changed tack the deal was far
>>from universally accepted by communist parties - and members - elsewhere.
>>There were splits in the communist movement in Britain, for example,
>>and my father - a good communist in 1939 - would no doubt have been
>>interested to hear how his joining the Navy, standing guard on the beaches
>>the night Cromwell was sounded and serving in the Atlantic convoys
>>was sabotaging the war effort - and he was far from alone, even from
>>his street in his village.
>>
>>Cripps was involved in the attempt to put an anti-fascist front together,
>>rightly seeing fascism as a much worse threat than communism. As soon
>>as Moscow betrayed the anti-fascist cause we was agin it.
>>The man was a christian socialist, not a communist.
>>
He was on the far left of the Labour Party and helped found the
Socialist League in 1932.
>Cripps had been the UK ambassador to the Soviet Union in 1941, and was
>in the thick of things when Hitler invaded. He was one of many who had
>high hopes of the Soviet Union and looked to closer relations with it.
>Giving the SU jet technology was the kind of gesture that was thought to
>generate a payback in due course. It did, but of the wrong kind.
>
UK ambassador to Moscow from May 1940 to January 1942.
>On the plus side, Cripps was a superb Minister of Aircraft Production
>from November 1942 until the end of the war. Having been a scientist he
>was able to make quality decisions on how to maximise production of the
>right kit (just as in WWI he had made the UK production of sulphuric
>acid the cheapest in the world).
>
He had read chemistry at University College, London.
>Verdict: a good man whose nature caused him to trust the wrong people.
>
AFAIK he was seen as dour and humourless. The only remotely funny thing
I know about him was that a BBC announcer (Macdonald Hobley?) once
referred to him as Sir Stifford Crapps.
>Cheers,
>
>Dave
>
--
Peter
Ying tong iddle-i po!
Dave Kearton
| In article <_u5ed.188020$as2.1...@bignews3.bellsouth.net>,
| "Brett" <Br...@192.168.10.1> wrote:
|
| > March 5, 1946 Churchill delivered his "Iron Curtain Speech" at a college
in
| > Missouri - so the "cold war" had already started by the time the Trade
| > Agreement that gave the Nene and the Derwent to the Russians was
completed
| > in September 1946.
|
| young Brit engineers lost the chance to trade the designs for sex.
|
|
| (trying to lighten the mood. also being realistic)
Engineers have sex ?
Cheers
Dave Kearton
Brett
> In article <_u5ed.188020$as2.1...@bignews3.bellsouth.net>,
> "Brett" <Br...@192.168.10.1> wrote:
>
in
> > Missouri - so the "cold war" had already started by the time the Trade
> > Agreement that gave the Nene and the Derwent to the Russians was
completed
> > in September 1946.
>
> young Brit engineers lost the chance to trade the designs for sex.
I doubt that many "young Brit engineers" would sell out their country for
sex, since that is the type of behavior you normally associate with civil
servants and politicians.
> (trying to lighten the mood. also being realistic)
No, I believe a large number of "young Brit engineers" would consider your
remarks insulting.
WaltBJ
odd noise when coarse throttle used coming out of the chocks. The
Convair F102 was designed and waited for the Gyron (etymology?), then
the Olympus, finally settled for the J57. Result was lots of space
between engine and fuselage and reduced (but not bad) performance.
Way up front someone mentioned the Gooney Bird as being rare - both
the real bird and the DC3/clones are still rather commaon in their own
milieux.
Walt BJ
Peter Twydell
<walt...@mindspring.com> writes
The Shorter Oxford Dictionary (it's only 2 volumes instead of the full
version's 24 or so) defines "gyron" as:
L16 [(O)Fr. giron, geron = gusset, f. OFrank equiv of OHG gero; see gore
n2]
"A triangular ordinary made by two lines drawn from the edge of the
shield to meet in the fess point and occupying half of the quarter".
So now you know :-)
Ken Duffey
The last airworthy Li-2 (Soviet DC-3 clone) crashed on takeoff from
Myatchkovo near Moscow on a flight to Kaluga in the summer of this year
following a engine failure.
I think there is a Li-2 in Hungary - it was formerly in a museum at
Szolnok, but has now been restored to flight IIRC.
Ken
Peter Kemp
wrote:
As a Brit Civil Servant engineer, I now feel cheated in not having a
honey trap sprung on me!
Oh well, I guess I'll have to settle for good old fashioned money to
sell out my country.
Offers starting at 12 shillings and 9 pence please....
Peter Kemp
Tamas Feher
>a college in Missouri - so the "cold war" had already started
Of course the Sir Winston who spoke was little more than a fat
alcoholic, as he had lost the elections.
Keith Willshaw
"Tamas Feher" <eto...@freemail.hu> wrote in message
news:clja48$s12$1...@proxy.interware.hu...
Stalin of course being careful to ensure that
elections always proceeded as planned.
Keith
Peter Stickney
Peter Kemp <peter_...@hotmail.com> writes:
> On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 21:13:10 -0400, "Brett" <Br...@192.168.10.1>
> wrote:
>
>>"hoarse with no name" <n...@spam.com> wrote:
>>> In article <_u5ed.188020$as2.1...@bignews3.bellsouth.net>,
>>> "Brett" <Br...@192.168.10.1> wrote:
>>>
>>> > March 5, 1946 Churchill delivered his "Iron Curtain Speech" at a college
>>in
>>> > Missouri - so the "cold war" had already started by the time the Trade
>>> > Agreement that gave the Nene and the Derwent to the Russians was
>>completed
>>> > in September 1946.
>>>
>>> The real shame of selling the engines to the Russians was that so many
>>> young Brit engineers lost the chance to trade the designs for sex.
>>
>>I doubt that many "young Brit engineers" would sell out their country for
>>sex, since that is the type of behavior you normally associate with civil
>>servants and politicians.
>>
>>> (trying to lighten the mood. also being realistic)
>>
>>No, I believe a large number of "young Brit engineers" would consider your
>>remarks insulting.
>
> As a Brit Civil Servant engineer, I now feel cheated in not having a
> honey trap sprung on me!
Ah, well - teh nostalgic days of teh COld War, when the Warsaw Pact
still existed, and all the various State Security Services had their
specialties. The Bulgarians specialized in Cheap Dumb Muscle, the DDR
Germans made the most amazing bugs, and the Czech would throw
beautiful woman at you. For some reason, there never was much of a
problem finding volunteers for the Prague office. (And it didn't hur
recruiting any, either.)
> Oh well, I guess I'll have to settle for good old fashioned money to
> sell out my country.
>
> Offers starting at 12 shillings and 9 pence please....
The only problem is - anyone with decent money doesn't need to buy
secrets. They make them, instead.