Details about the Apaches lost in Albania
Petar Lazarevski
Could anyone comment on the way the Apaches were lost in Albania?
Regards, Peter
Dangerpig
as it has been related to the people in the field.
The first accident was caused by "settling with power". This is a situation
where a helicopter descends into it's own downwash, if you do this too
rapidly the rotor system can't produce enough lift in the disturbed air to
support itself and you crash. If you recognize the situation it is easily
correctable. The flight crew got into this situation, by drifting off of
the firing position they were hovering over. As they drifted off the
hilltop they went from in-ground-effect hover to an out-of-ground effect
hover, which required a great deal more power. Power they didn't have. So
the aircraft descended into the trees. This situation could have been
avoided. In short if aircrews would be allowed to train and fly more than
just minimums they would have recognized the situation and avoided it.
The second accident is believed to have been caused by a flight control
malfunction. It's seems there was nothing they could have done.
"Petar Lazarevski" <tex...@net.yu> wrote in message
news:81ke8f$bl3$2...@SOLAIR2.EUnet.yu...
p_...@my-deja.com
Michael
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
tj1...@my-deja.com
> The rest was bombed in the albania airbase by yugoslav airforce.
>
> Michael
>
> >
>
LOL!
The claimed Serbian air-raids on Tuzla and Rinas AFBs are pure fantasy
like the list of massive NATO manned aircraft losses with claims of
several B-52H and B-2A.
From Venik's site;
'April 26 According to different reports, from 11 to 14 Apaches were
destroyed on the ground during an attack by Yugoslav Air Force on Rinas
airport near Tirana, Albania, on April 26.'
Do you honestly believe the following bag or crap from Venik's site
also?;
'April 25 A U.S. Army Apache helicopter was captured by Yugoslav troops
on 04-25-99, while flying a low-level reconnaissance mission. The
information I received from reliable private sources in Yugoslavia
suggests that the helicopter was ambushed by a group of 30 Yugoslav
soldiers armed with Igla man-portable SAMs. The helicopter did not put
up any resistance. It landed and the crew surrendered. There certainly
is a good reason to suspect that the Apache which crashed during
"exercises" and the Apache captured by the Serbs may be the same
aircraft. After all, there were only 24 of them in the region, so, if
an aircraft was lost to the Serbs, NATO would have had to admit it or
to find a plausible explanation for the missing helicopter. What I find
remarkable is the fact that both of the pilots not only survived but
were reported to be in good condition. This would certainly free NATO
from an obligation to inform their families and mention their names, at
least in the immediate future. And this would certainly free NATO from
dealing with the problem of two "dead" bodies (or two "patients" in a
local hospital). A perfect solution: we had an accident, crew is fine -
no bodies, no hospitalization. Perhaps NATO would even come up with a
photo of the crash site. (Well, what'd you know, they did. But the
photos...well, not exactly what I expected.)
May 5 Another American Apache helicopter crashed 75km north of Tirana
on 05-05-99 at 01:30 local time. NATO reported the incident, saying
that the helicopter crashed in yet another "training exercise" (this is
getting ridiculous). The crew of two is dead. Out of the force of 24
Apaches dispatched to Albania, one remained in Italy after catching
fire due to a mechanical malfunction and crash-landing on an Italian
airbase, another Apache crashed during a "training exercise" of 04-27-
99 near Tirana, and one Apache crashed on 05-05-99 also near Tirana and
also on a "training mission." They better finish their "training"
before they run out of helicopters. ABC News report here. ITAR-TASS
report here. A few interesting details: according to the Pentagon
officials, this group of (almost) 24 Apaches is the most experienced in
the US. This group of pilots had 7-months combat experience in Bosnia.
The two pilots who were killed in this latest Apache "accident", were
among the most experienced of this group. As of May 5, 1999 the
Pentagon officials did not rule out that the crashed might have been
caused by hostile fire. The Pentagon officials did say that a loss of
two Apaches in such a short period of time is "highly abnormal."
Pentagon and NATO are at odds with each other regarding the use of the
Apaches. In a few words: Americans are afraid to use them because of
the threat of man-portable SAMs and a strong possibility of a massive
response by the Yugoslavian troops. NY Times 05-16-99 article here. A
05-23-99 issue of German Weld am Sonntag newspaper quoted a classified
NATO report stating that the U.S. Apache helicopter, that crashed in
Albania on 05-05-99, was "likely shot down by Serb forces." According
to the newspaper, the NATO report came to this conclusion "from the
fact that the chopper erupted into a fireball in mid-air before
crashing to the ground." Swedish Aftonbladet newspaper also quoted the
classified NATO report suggesting that the second Apache, which crashed
on 05-05-99, exploded in mid-air, possibly as a result of a SAM impact.
Agence France Presse article from 05-22-99 here. A more coherent
explanation for the second Apache crash in Albania was leaked by an
unnamed Pentagon source, who suggested that the helicopter might have
been shot down by a high-power sniper rifle, with which Serb troops are
amply equipped. Such a weapon is equipped with capable night vision
scope and can be fired in silence from long distance without being
detected by the Apaches sensors as a portable SAM launch would be. Here
is what The American Spectator magazine writes about the second Apache
crash in Albania: "...Moreover, two of the Apaches had crashed on
training missions early on, one during a nighttime exercise in the
mountains that had left both pilots dead. A German newspaper reported
that the chopper had been shot down by Serb rocket fire, a claim
vigorously denied by the Pentagon. The official line was that the crash
was still under investigation, and of the dozen or so pilots I spoke
with only one consented to talk about the accident. He said he had been
in the air that night on the same exercise and that the crash was
"unexplainable." He said none of the pilots had any radar indication of
hostile fire below, nor did the chopper appear to clip a wire or hit
any other obstacle. "It just flew over a mountain," he said, "and
exploded. We knew right away--no way those guys could have come out
alive." Whatever happened, the incident had understandably set a sour
mood around the camp for a time, I suppose particularly--though no
pilot ever said so directly--because everyone knew they weren't there
for battle in the first place." (source: The American Spectator, August
1999, Vol. 32 No. 8, Pg. 32). For the complete article click here.
Although the Apaches in Albania were never officially used in combat,
Yugoslav military sources report that two AH-64s were shot down while
escorting search-and-rescue teams over Kosovo. No exact dates or
locations of these two incidents are known.
After going through all the trouble of getting those Apaches to Albania
and preparing the crews, after all the publicity and embarrassment over
the a month-long "rapid deployment" and the loss of two helicopters in
less than a week, the Pentagon decided to commit only eight Apaches to
the peacekeeping mission in Kosovo. Do the math: 24 Apaches, minus 2
"training" accidents," minus at least 11 Apaches destroyed or damaged
helicopters at Rinas, minus 2 shot down during SAR missions, minus 1
captured Apache comes out to be 8, or exactly the number of Apaches the
Pentagon so generously committed to Kosovo operations.
Venik
May 05, 1999
Venik's comments on the attack on the mythical Serbian air-raid on
Rinas AFB;
P.S. I will add more information as it becomes available. Don't ask me
for the sources of this information: if I could have shared them with
you I certainly would have. The materials on this page are simply "for
your information," so you should feel free to believe it or ignore it.
Information I received in regard to this attack was so consistent and
overwhelming that I simply couldn't sit on it much longer.
NEW: According to some sources, there might have been two more
Yugoslavian aircraft participating in this attack. These two aircraft
flew the mission from a different airbase (in Pristina, according to
some information I have) and joined the two G-4s from the Golubovci
base. Up to 12 Apaches were damaged or destroyed, as well as some NATO
transport planes. Two of the Yugoslavian planes might have been hit by
NATO SAMs, but the pilots survived and have either ejected of crash-
landed their planes. I have information that some details of this
attack were reported by an Italian television news channel. I am still
looking for more information about this attack and will update this
page as soon as any more substantial details become available.'
The biggest load of bollocks that I have ever read!
TJ1234.
p_...@my-deja.com
I do know that only 8 Apaches are in KFOR service now.
Where is another 22-2-8=12?
Michael
Ralph Savelsberg
> The rest was bombed in the albania airbase by yugoslav airforce.
>
> Michael
>
> >
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
Come on. Do you really believe that crap about this claimed attack on Venik's
site? It's a load of rubbish.
I don't dispute that his information about the Russian Air Force might be
accurate, but his claims about operation Allied Force are ridiculous.
Ralph
p_...@my-deja.com
Ralph Savelsberg <ra...@vortex.phys.tue.nl> wrote:
> Come on. Do you really believe that crap about this claimed attack on Venik's
> site? It's a load of rubbish.
> I don't dispute that his information about the Russian Air Force might be
> accurate, but his claims about operation Allied Force are ridiculous.
>
> Ralph
>
>
I like venik site. And respect Venik for his efforts.
As for data about Kosovo war I keep ? mark on many
of the stories posted there util more independent
information and pictures will appear.
His data about aviation as you said is quite accurate
that's why I cannot deny that many (not all) of the
stories may indeed happend. This, by the way, is also
venik's personal position.
Michael
PS Do you know where 22-2-8=12 apaches has gone
from Albania?
Ralph Savelsberg
How about back in Germany, where they came from in the first plac if I'm not
mistaken?
Ralph
Keith WIllshaw
<p_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:81m0p8$a27$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> >
>
> I do know that only 8 Apaches are in KFOR service now.
> Where is another 22-2-8=12?
>
> Michael
>
>
Same place the RAF GR7 Harriers and Tornadoes are
Same Place the B52's are
Back at base
If you believe they were shot down
show the PICTURES
Keith
p_...@my-deja.com
"Keith WIllshaw" <keith_w...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>
> <p_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:81m0p8$a27$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > >
> >
> > Where is another 22-2-8=12?
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
>
>
> Same Place the B52's are
>
> Back at base
>
> If you believe they were shot down
> show the PICTURES
I have not seen any messages that any of them
were send back to germany. I guess they were
destroyed on the ground. If I have pictures I
would not ask where they are. Also why only
8 remains in the KFOR. One could expect
that authorised squadron size should be preserved
in the case if only one squadron is decided to
remain in KFOR. What is the standard squadron
size of US army?
Michael
>
> Keith
Dangerpig
conspiracy theories aside, they did this so they could rotate crews out more
efficiently. Knowing the Army as I do, if a crew had been truly captured as
has been suggested, it wouldn't be secret for long. Additionally the
pentagon doesn't help their credibility by putting out such crap as, "These
are our best Apache pilots." That is a statement that is unprovable and
unsupportable and gives people unrealistic expectations.
"Keith WIllshaw" <keith_w...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:81m3hs$qu4$1...@ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com...
> > Where is another 22-2-8=12?
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
>
>
> Same Place the B52's are
>
> Back at base
>
> If you believe they were shot down
> show the PICTURES
>
>
>
tj1...@my-deja.com
>
> I do know that only 8 Apaches are in KFOR service now.
> Where is another 22-2-8=12?
>
> Michael
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>
So, simply because there are now only 8 AH-64s readily available to
KFOR then you imply that the others have been destroyed, damaged or
captured. The hostilities are over, there is simply no need to have the
full compliment of aircraft available. Same with the Harrier GR.7s. A
token force is kept in Italy and the rest return home. Is this also
proof that the other Harriers were shot down?! If you believe this then
you also fall into Venik's absurd fantasy world. He came out with the
following;
'..the Pentagon decided to commit only eight Apaches to the
peacekeeping mission in Kosovo. Do the math: 24 Apaches, minus 2
"training" accidents," minus at least 11 Apaches destroyed or damaged
at Rinas, minus 2 shot down during SAR missions, minus 1 captured
Apache comes out to be 8, or exactly the number of Apaches the Pentagon
so generously committed to Kosovo operations.'
To get this number (8) then he truly believes that 2 were shot down
during SAR missions and 1 captured. Can he explain what happened to the
crews? It must be some massive cover-up going on!!
Mladen came out with a similar 'captured' classic;
'In 1994, 3 MiG-21 took-off to intercept one F/A-18 who was flying
over Yugoslav airspace. The pilot of the F/A-18 was forced to land his
airplane on Batajnica AFB.'
So, now the Serbian military have one captured AH-64 and an F/A-18 to
play with?! Unbelievable!!
Another classic from Mladen regarding NATO losses;
'It has come to my knowledge that NATO left unusually small number of
its aircraft in Aviano, Pescara and other bases that were used for
NATO's campaign against Yugoslav Armed Forces. ...So why leave small
number of airplanes to protect those troops. Two answers - either they
are really stupid, or they are short on aircraft.'
In regards to Venik, he claims that he wants to impart objectivity and
historical accuracy to the conflict. He wouldn't know these if they
jumped up and kicked his fat ass. Earlier this year he had his shoes
and socks off doing some more 'advanced' math and came up with the
following in regards to B-52H losses during Operation Allied Force.
Venik wrote;
'BUFFs
Now, let's get to the B-52 issue: the Pentagon announced that 11 of
these aircraft will be returning to the US. Here is the complete list
of those American aircraft that are expected to return to the US by
July 8, 1999:
"The Pentagon is ordering 300 of the aircraft it used in the Kosovo
campaign back to their bases in the United States and Europe. These
warplanes are returning to their bases in the next two weeks:
12 F-117s to Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico.
2 EC-130s to Davis-Monthan AFB, Ariz.
4 EA-6Bs to Whidbey Island Naval Air Station, Wash.
3 EA-6Bs to Cherry Point Marine Air Station, N.C.
12 F-16s to Shaw AFB, S.C.
1P-3 to Brunswick NAS, Maine.
11 B-52s to Barksdale AFB, La.
6 B-1s to Ellsworth AFB, S.D.
27 KC-135 tankers to various bases.
26 F-15s to the U.S. air base at Lakenheath, England.
20 F-16s to the U.S. air base at Spangdahlem, Germany."
(source: ABC News)
A total of 18 B-52s were deployed to England at the beginning of the
aggression - 16 planes from 2nd Bomb. Wing (Barksdale AFB) and 2 from
the 5th Bomb. Wing (the latter two returned to the US earlier during
the conflict). CNN reported that all American B-52s returned to the US
(by "all" CNN meant 11.) This either means that CNN messed up or that
the 11 B-52s is in fact all that survived the war. Curiously, Serbs
claimed to have shot down or damaged five B-52s. Again, the math is
rather straight forward: 16 - 5 = 11.
If you take a look at NATO aircraft losses reported by sources in
Yugoslavia and neighboring countries regarding B-52s:
entry #251: on May 13 at about 4:25 near Nova Pazova one B-52H was hit
by a SAM and crashed shortly after in the area of Dobanovci
entry #284: on May 20 at 3:03 a B-52H was hit over Borca (near
Belgrade), as was announced by Yugoslav government officials and
television.
entry #289: on the same May 20 at about 4:00 another B-52H was shot
down Mt. Cer, southwest of Sabac.
entry #301: on May 22 at 2:35 a B-52H was shot down over Lipovica, near
Belgrade.
entry #380: on June 7 between 0:12 and 0:40 a suspected B-52H was shot
down in the area between Slankamen and Indija. '
Still believe anything that this guy reports??
5 strategic bombers accountable under the START treaty go missing off
the books and nobody notices! And this doesn't even take into account
the B-2s. The cover up must be truly staggering!
Further to the mythical attacks on Tuzla and Rinas Venik has also
conjured up another truly fantastic story. This guy should send some of
his ideas for paper-back publishing!
Venik wrote:
'There have been many reports that Croatian Orao and Super Galebs
aircraft - the same types used by Yugoslavia - may be disguised as
Yugoslavian air force planes and used by the KLA to attack a refugee
camp in Albania. There would be no shortage of pilots to carry out such
an attack. This would, no doubt, present NATO with a perfect excuse to
justify a ground invasion, which, in turn, would save the KLA from
total destruction and considerably advance its military goals. With a
little help from CNN and BBC and a few strategically-placed "amateur"
cameras, such an attack will have a bombshell effect on the public
opinion in the western Europe and America. It is entirely possible to
use MiG-21s for the same purpose: both the Croatian and Yugoslavian air
forces operate them. For NATO this is a difficult situation: its own
military incompetence and lack of planning have trapped it in this war
and its commanders are in desperate need of a way out. On the other
hand, if a provocation by the KLA fails and is exposed, NATO would lose
much of the public and political support and may very well have to
settle with the Serbs on far less favorable terms.
... This is just for your information. There have been reports that
German and American pilots are currently being trained to fly Croatian
Orao and Super Galebs aircraft, implying that this may be in
preparation for an attack against a refugee camp'
It was complete fantasy stories like these that prompted me to produce
the fake audios/stories of B-52H 'Cajun Fear' 60-0062, and Harrier GR7
in an effort to see how gullible they really were. In regards to Venik
his claimed military knowledge, in my opinion, is severely lacking if
he just publishes absolutely anything that he comes across that suits
his 'spin' on events. He even turned his gullibility into a 'spin' for
his own ends rather than lose face in the fact that he claimed that I
was a PRO (Public Relations Officer) based at RAF Fairford, England and
implied that it was my job to make these fakes. Yet another fantasy
story to add to his long list. He simply posts what he himself wants
to believe and hides behind the fantasy of the 'NATO cover-up'.
Ralph Savelsberg
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
Venik has certainly spent a lot of work and time on creating this site and he
compiled a lot of information about Russian aircraft for instance, some of which I
hardly know. But his claims and stories about operation Allied force are way too
far fetched. There is no way in which all the events he described, without there
being some evidence somewhere. All we've seen so far (in the months since the
attacks ended) is wreckage of one F-16, one F-117, a number of UAVs, an engine
cowling of an A-10 and numerous fueltanks and NATO ordonance. That is it. Nothing
more. One would expect that pictures would have been made public by the Yugoslav
government to support their claims, but there is nothing. One would expect that
the claimed large number of NATO soldiers killed, would be missed by their
families and communities.
Venik (and Mladen) for some reason want to believe so much that these things
happened that everything that only vaguely hints to some losses not admitted by
NATO, is accepted and presented as the Gospel truth.
I'm not saying that I can be totally sure that no losses took place besides those
that NATO has admitted, however I've seen nothing that would seem to indicate
otherwise.
As for the Apaches, they are already back in Germany.
Ralph
Dangerpig
(or Squadrons when dealing with a Cavalry unit) that have 24 helicopters.
These Battalions are broken down into companies which have 8 aircraft
apiece. These companies can operate independent of one another. If all
these helicopters had been destroyed on the ground as you suppose, we would
have herd about it from someplace other than from your fevered imagination.
<p_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:81mbgt$hcl$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <81m3hs$qu4$1...@ssauraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com>,
> "Keith WIllshaw" <keith_w...@compuserve.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Where is another 22-2-8=12?
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Same Place the B52's are
> >
> > Back at base
> >
> > If you believe they were shot down
> > show the PICTURES
>
> were send back to germany. I guess they were
> destroyed on the ground. If I have pictures I
> would not ask where they are. Also why only
> 8 remains in the KFOR. One could expect
> that authorised squadron size should be preserved
> in the case if only one squadron is decided to
> remain in KFOR. What is the standard squadron
> size of US army?
>
> Michael
> >
> > Keith
> >
> >
>
>
BUFDRVR
>no bodies, no hospitalization.
Apparently Venick doesn't watch "Nightline". This accident was caught live by
ABC while doing a report on the Army Unit in Albania. Oh wait, never mind,
Venick probably thinks ABC acted it out to help NATO cover up losses.
BUFDRVR
"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"
BUFDRVR
The only problem with doing math the "Venick" way is that he completely ignores
aircraft rotation. I'll guess that over 30 B-52H's were at RAF Fairford during
Allied Force (tail watchers...am I close ?) but we never had more than 14 on
the ramp at one time. Trying to use a quote from 14 May as to how many B-52's
were in theater and compare it to a CNN quote on 23 Jun, just won't work.
Michael Kagalenko
] Ralph Savelsberg <ra...@vortex.phys.tue.nl> wrote:
]
]> Come on. Do you really believe that crap about this claimed attack on Venik's
]> site? It's a load of rubbish.
]> I don't dispute that his information about the Russian Air Force might be
]> accurate, but his claims about operation Allied Force are ridiculous.
]>
]> Ralph
]>
]>
]I like venik site. And respect Venik for his efforts.
And think that Moon landing was filmed in Hollywood studio. Enough said.
Chiggie Red Baron
<buf...@aol.com> writes
>>Now, let's get to the B-52 issue: the Pentagon announced that 11 of
>>these aircraft will be returning to the US. Here is the complete list
>>of those American aircraft that are expected to return to the US by
>>July 8, 1999:
>>
>>"The Pentagon is ordering 300 of the aircraft it used in the Kosovo
>>campaign back to their bases in the United States and Europe. These
>>warplanes are returning to their bases in the next two weeks:
>>11 B-52s to Barksdale AFB, La.
>>
>>A total of 18 B-52s were deployed to England at the beginning of the
>>aggression - 16 planes from 2nd Bomb. Wing (Barksdale AFB) and 2 from
>>the 5th Bomb. Wing (the latter two returned to the US earlier during
>>the conflict). CNN reported that all American B-52s returned to the US
>>(by "all" CNN meant 11.) This either means that CNN messed up or that
>>the 11 B-52s is in fact all that survived the war. Curiously, Serbs
>>claimed to have shot down or damaged five B-52s. Again, the math is
>>rather straight forward: 16 - 5 = 11.
>>
>aircraft rotation. I'll guess that over 30 B-52H's were at RAF Fairford during
>Allied Force (tail watchers...am I close ?) but we never had more than 14 on
>the ramp at one time. Trying to use a quote from 14 May as to how many B-52's
>were in theater and compare it to a CNN quote on 23 Jun, just won't work.
>
2BW
60-0010/LA arrived 21/2 as Havoc02
departed 30/3 as Amuse11
60-0011/LA arrived 9/4 as Jambo52
departed 18/4 as Gamut11
returned 1/5 as Tiger
departed 23/6 as Brock
60-0014/- arrived 27/3 as Laser12
departed 29/3
60-0016/- arrived 22/2 as Havoc11
departed 26/3
returned 9/4 as Doom51
departed 17/4 as Hoyle11
60-0020/LA arrived 21/2 as Havoc04
departed 9/4
returned 1/5 as Tiger31
departed 23/6 as Brock
60-0022/LA arrived 21/2 as Havoc01
departed 26/3
60-0037/LA arrived 26/5 as Tiger01
departed 23/6 as Brock
60-0043/LA arrived 18/5 as Tiger01
departed 23/6 as Brock
60-0046/LA arrived 3/6 as Tiger01
departed 23/6 as Brock
60-0049/LA arrived 21/2 as Havoc05
departed 26/3
returned 4/5
departed by 4/6
60-0052/LA arrived 28/3 as Artic12
departed 27/5
60-0059/LA arrived 21/2 as Havoc03
departed 17/4 as Hoyle12
60-0062/LA arrived 3/5 as Tiger01
departed 23/6 as Brock
61-0002/LA arrived 1/5 as Tiger41
departed 23/6 as Brock
61-0011/LA arrived 1/5 as Tiger
departed 9/5 as Area51
61-0016/LA arrived 21/2 as Havoc07
departed by 28/5
61-0020/LA arrived 27/3 as Laser11
departed 10/4
returned 1/5 as Tiger51
departed by 19/5
61-0023/LA arrived 28/3 as Artic11
departed 9/4
returned 1/5 as Tiger
departed by 4/6
61-0031/LA arrived 21/2 as Havoc08
departed 26/3
61-0039/LA arrived 8/5 as Tiger01
departed 23/6 as Brock
(all aircraft accounted for)
5BW
60-0009/MT arrived 29/3 as Erwin11
departed 27/5
60-0018/- arrived 1/5 as Nappy21
departed 23/6 as Hazan
60-0033/MT arrived 27/3 as Laser13
departed 29/3
returned 1.5 as Nappy11
departed 23/6 as Hazan
60-0044/MT arrived 29/3 as Erwin22
departed 17/4 as Binge21
60-0051/MT arrived 29/3 as Erwin33
departed 1/4
returned 3/6 as Blue01
departed 23/6 as Hazan
(all aircraft accounted for)
I actually saw 60-0052/LA and 60-0009/MT depart on 27/5.
The eleven B-52's referred to were Brock and Hazan flights on 23/6.
(Credit: Miltary Aviation Review, Air North, the Mil-Spotters-Forum and
my own notes)
--
Graeme Carrott
Currently Listening To: 'Trampoline' - The Mavericks
Currently Reading: 'British Racing and Record Breaking Aircraft' - Lewis
Brian
>
> >Quite right, Bufdrvr.... here's a list from 21/2 to 23/06:
>
>
> 25, oh well I missed it by 5.
>
> BTW, you guys/gals never cease to amaze me. Every time I see posts about tail
> numbers and call signs they're dead on accurate. Its funny to see in writing,
> I was on 0016 on 9 April as DOOM 51, then again in your list on the now
> in/famous 0062 (Cajun Fear) on 23 Jun as BROCK 02.
Wait till they tell you what you ate for breakfast;)
BUFDRVR
<snip>
25, oh well I missed it by 5.
BTW, you guys/gals never cease to amaze me. Every time I see posts about tail
numbers and call signs they're dead on accurate. Its funny to see in writing,
I was on 0016 on 9 April as DOOM 51, then again in your list on the now
in/famous 0062 (Cajun Fear) on 23 Jun as BROCK 02.
Chiggie Red Baron
.deletethis.ru> writes
>BUFDRVR wrote:
>>
>> >Quite right, Bufdrvr.... here's a list from 21/2 to 23/06:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> 25, oh well I missed it by 5.
>>
>> BTW, you guys/gals never cease to amaze me. Every time I see posts about tail
>> numbers and call signs they're dead on accurate. Its funny to see in writing,
>> I was on 0016 on 9 April as DOOM 51, then again in your list on the now
>> in/famous 0062 (Cajun Fear) on 23 Jun as BROCK 02.
>
I think we should let M'laddie tell everyone. After all, he seems to be
so sure of everything else.
'But of course, Bufdrvr, you eat Serbian children' - there, M'laddie,
I've saved you the bother.
Isn't he quiet, now there's a list of returning B-52's been posted?
Eni23
>The claimed Serbian air-raids on Tuzla and Rinas AFBs are pure fantasy...
The claim about Rinas Int. Airport is true. A friend of mine in Albania told me
that several loud explosions were heard coming from the direction of Rinas.
NATO dogheads explained these as sonic booms heard over the city. That is a
lie because NATO fighters weren't supposed to fly over Tirana. Also why would
they turn on their afterburners hundreds of kilometers from their targets?They
didn't take off from Rinas.Planes used to fly every day over tirana , but sonic
booms were never heard before. So they were defenetly explosions.The airport
was closed for weeks after this. I don't know anythig about Tuzla but I am
guesing it is also true.
Keith Willshaw
Eni23 wrote in message <19991129155636...@ng-fx1.aol.com>...
>>LOL!
Its strange that NONE of the News Crews , radio reporters and Journalists
reported this isn't it.
Especially considering how much coverage was coming from Albania.
There were several CNN , Sky News and BBC reports from the
airport about the rapid expansion work going on there.
I also saw reports from the aid agencies regarding the evacuation flights
and aid shipments going in through Rinas. Oddly they didn't
notice either.
Odd that
Keith
Paul J. Adam
Keith Willshaw <keith_w...@compuserve.com> writes
>I also saw reports from the aid agencies regarding the evacuation flights
>and aid shipments going in through Rinas. Oddly they didn't
>notice either.
All part of the Great Unified Western Media Conspiracy, that famously
united and coherent body that has always kowtowed to whoever was
in office at the time...
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...
Paul J. Adam pa...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk
BUFDRVR
>lie because NATO fighters weren't supposed to fly over Tirana.
Sonic booms can travel over pretty far distances, depending on atmospheric
conditions. Just because you heard the sonic boom over Tirana doesn't mean
that's where the aircraft that made it was.
tj1...@my-deja.com
en...@aol.com (Eni23) wrote:
> >LOL!
> >The claimed Serbian air-raids on Tuzla and Rinas AFBs are pure
>
> The claim about Rinas Int. Airport is true. A friend of mine in
Albania told me
> that several loud explosions were heard coming from the direction of
Rinas.
That is a
why would
> they turn on their afterburners hundreds of kilometers from their
targets?They
> didn't take off from Rinas.Planes used to fly every day over tirana ,
but sonic
> booms were never heard before. So they were defenetly explosions.The
airport
> was closed for weeks after this. I don't know anythig about Tuzla but
I am
> guesing it is also true.
>
>
The claim about Rinas Int. Airport is true. A friend of mine in Albania
told me that several loud explosions were heard coming from the
direction of Rinas. NATO dogheads explained these as sonic booms heard
over the city. That is a lie because NATO fighters weren't supposed to
fly over Tirana. Also why would they turn on their afterburners
hundreds of kilometers from their targets?They didn't take off from
Rinas.Planes used to fly every day over tirana , but sonic booms were
never heard before. So they were defenetly explosions.The airport was
closed for weeks after this. I don't know anythig about Tuzla but I am
guesing it is also true.
Maybe your statement was true ‘I (You) don’t know anything’
Oh, and thanks very much for the ‘And TJ1234 and all of your crackhead
friends , maybe you also need some growing up’ statement on an earlier
post.
Very intelligent ‘Eni23’, but then you come out with the very
intelligent and collective phrases such as on the 22/04/99.
‘Re: Nato losses
These are the only NATO losses according to NATO. But America have
layed beffore about their losses on several occasions. Why wouldn't
they be laying now?
You malformed americans!!!!!!!!!’
Why do the aircraft have to be involved in bombing mission in Serbia?
Have you not heard of the ‘rolling’ CAPs (Combat Air Patrols) which
were set up to cover the territory of friendlies in the region to
prevent Serbian aircraft from carrying out attacks like these or from
attacking strike packages on egress/ingress? If they were being
vectored onto potential targets or to achieve a position of advantage
then yes they would have been supersonic.
Romania also closed Arad, Timisoara and Caransebes Airports following a
NATO request To create a ‘safety zone’ around the Yugoslav border.
Likewise, Albania closed Tirana/Rinas Airport. Similarly, Bosnian
airspace was ‘closed’ for a three- week period and was partially re-
opened to civilian traffic after a three week closure. It wasn’t just
Rinas that was closed!
You claim that you don’t know anything about Tuzla, but guess that it
is also true. A bit of a shallow argument there. Yes you are entitled
to believe what you want but reasoned logic and the fact that
absolutely nothing has ‘broken’ on these attacks lends itself to the
fact that they never took place. In regards to Tuzla Venik states the
following on his website;
‘Several people, who have either friends or relatives living in Tuzla,
have e-mailed me saying that a series of loud explosions were heard
coming from the Tuzla airport at the reported time of the attack.’
If you do some research into the situation in Bosnia you’ll find that
Operation Harvest, which was an amnesty for the collection and
subsequent destruction of vast amounts of explosives and arms that the
local populace had in their possession or knew there whereabouts. was
ongoing at the time. Figures released by SFOR during March detail the
following;
‘The totals as of this weekend are: 1,848 small arms, and please note
that this particular number is approximate; 253,074 rounds of
ammunition smaller than 20 millimeters; 4,592 rounds of 20 to 76
millimeter ammunition; 414 rounds of ammunition greater than 76
millimeters; 431 mortar rounds; 6,696 hand grenades; 752 anti-personnel
mines; 316 anti-tank mines; 647 pounds of explosives; and 6,313
miscellaneous items.’
The local populace was reporting explosions to SFOR and were worried
that these had something to do with the ongoing conflict. The fact is
that many of these were controlled explosions by EOD teams covering the
territory.
‘The Orao piloted by Lt. Colonel Mihaljo V. was targeted and destroyed
by a NATO SAM’ Venik also states that the pilot was killed’
So, now NATO is covering up it’s shoot down kills to cover up the
attack!?
So, what happened to the remains of the unfortunate pilot of the Orao
the Venik claims was shutdown? Is this included in the super-secret
deal between Washington and Belgrade as some individuals believe in?
When individuals start naming names like in this situation, they do not
consider the fact that families are involved. What has the family of
this Yugoslav pilot been told?
Eni23
>reported this isn't it.
>
>Especially considering how much coverage was coming from Albania.
>There were several CNN , Sky News and BBC reports from the
>airport about the rapid expansion work going on there.
First of all, there was no expansion work going on there. I went to Albania in
July after the war, and the airport was exactly the same. There were duzens of
NATO trucks and choppers sitting around, But no work had been done. They had
just covered the hole area with gravel. As for CNN, BCC and Sky News coverage,
it was very scarce. They spoke of expansion, but I did not see any.And as for
the noises, It was Sky News , broadcasting from Albania, that called them sonic
booms.So since thay were labeled as sonic booms, why would any of the western
news agencies tell you guys about them?
>I also saw reports from the aid agencies regarding the evacuation flights
>and aid shipments going in through Rinas. Oddly they didn't
>notice either.
The "aid" shipments did not come until after the war was over. The airport was
closed for weeks after this incident. No one, not even the president of
Albania, was allowed to enter the airport. NATO placed tanks at the gates of
the airport.CNN was propably allowed in, and in all their broadcastings I did
not see the airport, only a cupple of Apaches and NATO soldiers pretenditng to
be working.
Keith Willshaw
Eni23 wrote in message <19991130151552...@ng-cn1.aol.com>...
>>Its strange that NONE of the News Crews , radio reporters and Journalists
>>reported this isn't it.
>>
>>Especially considering how much coverage was coming from Albania.
>>There were several CNN , Sky News and BBC reports from the
>>airport about the rapid expansion work going on there.
>
>First of all, there was no expansion work going on there. I went to Albania
in
>July after the war, and the airport was exactly the same. There were duzens
of
>NATO trucks and choppers sitting around, But no work had been done. They
had
>just covered the hole area with gravel.
Gee How could the airport be the same if it had been destroyed by
Serbian air attack and where did those dozens of choopers come from
if they had been destroyed
GET A GRIP Will Ya
Keith
Eni23
several hundred of m from the airfield. So if they were bombed the airfield
would not be destroyed. The choppers I saw were not Apaches. They were Puma,
French choppers, and several other transport types. By that time the Apaches
were moved out of Albania.I know what I saw there, and my friend knows what he
heard.
Eni23
>>lie because NATO fighters weren't supposed to fly over Tirana.
>
>conditions. Just because you heard the sonic boom over Tirana doesn't mean
>that's where the aircraft that made it was.
>
Buf, I have lived in Tirana for 16 years and believe me I have heard a lot of
sonic booms from fighters flying over the city during the "civil war". You
could bearly hear the noise from planes flying over the city let alone further
away. These noises were loud explosion noises coming from the direction of the
airport.Also, NATO planes weren't even supposed to fly enywhere near Tirana.
Also if these were indeed sonic booms, do you think Sky News would have
reported them and called them "sonic booms"? You don't hear CNN saying "there
was a sonic boom heard over NYC today", do you?
Keith Willshaw
Eni23 wrote in message <19991130230642...@ng-cm1.aol.com>...
>
>Buf, I have lived in Tirana for 16 years and believe me I have heard a lot
of
>sonic booms from fighters flying over the city during the "civil war". You
>could bearly hear the noise from planes flying over the city let alone
further
>away. These noises were loud explosion noises coming from the direction of
the
>airport.Also, NATO planes weren't even supposed to fly enywhere near
Tirana.
>Also if these were indeed sonic booms, do you think Sky News would have
>reported them and called them "sonic booms"? You don't hear CNN saying
"there
>was a sonic boom heard over NYC today", do you?
>
And yet in an earlier post you said and I quote
> And as for the noises, It was Sky News , broadcasting from Albania, that
> called them sonic booms.So since thay were labeled as sonic booms,
> why would any of the western news agencies tell you guys about them?
So did SKY News report them or not ?
Keith
BUFDRVR
>airport.
A B-1B breaking the sound barrier would probably generate a louder sonic boom
then you're used to.
>Also, NATO planes weren't even supposed to fly enywhere near Tirana.
Well, whats your definition of "anywhere near" ? I orbited over Albania several
times, your country is not that big, I'm sure I came within 70-80 miles of
Tirana, if not closer.
>You don't hear CNN saying "there
>was a sonic boom heard over NYC today", do you?
Well, thats for 2 reasons. #1 no one is going Mach over NYC, ever. And #2 the
Concord flies a considerable distance from NYC before it pushes it up to Mach.
Eni23
>
>>
>>Buf, I have lived in Tirana for 16 years and believe me I have heard a lot
>of
>>sonic booms from fighters flying over the city during the "civil war". You
>>could bearly hear the noise from planes flying over the city let alone
>further
>the
>>airport.Also, NATO planes weren't even supposed to fly enywhere near
>Tirana.
>>Also if these were indeed sonic booms, do you think Sky News would have
>"there
>>was a sonic boom heard over NYC today", do you?
>>
>
>
>
>> And as for the noises, It was Sky News , broadcasting from Albania, that
>> called them sonic booms.So since thay were labeled as sonic booms,
>> why would any of the western news agencies tell you guys about them?
>
>So did SKY News report them or not ?
>
>Keith
When I said "you guys" I ment the west. You asked why you in the west had not
heard about these noises, and I said that is because Sky News called them sonic
booms. That is why you did not hear about them because they were reported as
nothig suspicious. They did report them in Albania because people started
asking questions because these noises were unusual.
Eni23
>
>A B-1B breaking the sound barrier would probably generate a louder sonic boom
>then you're used to.
>
>
>several
>times, your country is not that big, I'm sure I came within 70-80 miles of
>Tirana, if not closer.
>
>>was a sonic boom heard over NYC today", do you?
>
>Concord flies a considerable distance from NYC before it pushes it up to
>Mach.
First of all, B-1s came into Yugoslavia from the north and not from albania. My
definition of "nowhere near" is nowhere in central Albania. You guys flew in
northern albania.And,you try and hear a sonic boom from 100km. The noises heard
in Tirana were much louder than a sonic boom from a plane flying 100km from
there. I am giving you the facts. These noises were indeed heard and they were
loud. Whether you believe them, or how you interpret them is your problem.
BUFDRVR
Back in 1982 (IIRC??) the Concorde flying out of Atlanta GA, pushed mach just
off the North Carolina coast in violation of FAA regulations. It broke windows
in southern New Jersey. The rattle was felt in varying parts of the east coast,
but due to atmospheric conditions south Jersey got the worst of it . If you're
not familiar with US geography, North Carolina is around 500 miles from south
New Jersey.
Eni23
>were set up to cover the territory of friendlies in the region to
>prevent Serbian aircraft from carrying out attacks
Is that how those supposedly serb Mig-29 were able to enter half way into
Bosnia?
>Romania also closed Arad, Timisoara and Caransebes Airports following a
>NATO request To create a ‘safety zone’ around the Yugoslav border
It is not the same situation as in Bolgaria. In Albania there are only two
airports, one in Tirana and one in Berat. The one in Berat is much closer to
the yugoslav border, and yet it was not closed. Berat is a military airport
were NATO based some UAVs. But if you close Rinas you are shutting off the
country from the rest of the world. NATO didn't even let the president of
Albania use it to fly to Italy. NATO stated that it closed the airport for the
construction work that was going on there and not for safety. And yet when I
visited the airport there was no construction work going on.
> Venik states the
>following on his website;
Just because Venik states so doesn't mean I do also. I am not basing anything
on Venik's site. I am only telling you the facts about what I know was heard
and what I saw.
tj1...@my-deja.com
en...@aol.com (Eni23) wrote:
> >Have you not heard of the ‘rolling’ CAPs (Combat Air Patrols)
which
> >were set up to cover the territory of friendlies in the region to
> >prevent Serbian aircraft from carrying out attacks
>
into
> Bosnia?
What's supposedly about them being Serbian MiG-29s and how is crashing 5
miles inside Bosnian airspace 'half way into Bosnia?' Even Venik has
stopped ranting about those two MiG-29s being NATOs on some kind of
secret mission.
Those two Serbian MiG-29 piloted by Peric and Radosavljevic crashed
some 5 miles inside Bosnian airspace.
Pictures of Peric's and Radosavljevic's aircraft can be found at the
following URLs.
http://www.tuzla.net/mig.htm
http://members.xoom.com/082499/aviation/img001/mig29bosnia4.jpg
http://members.xoom.com/082499/aviation/mig29bosnia3.jpg
The two F-15Cs involved were serials 84-0014 and 86-0159 from 493/48 FW
piloted by J.Hwang and J.McMurray. The weapons used to shoot down
Peric and Radosavljevic were AIM-120 AMRAAM. The two F-15s, flying CAP
on 'Operation Deny Flight', were vectored towards the MiGs when it was
clear that they were going to come across the border into Bosnia. One
of the MiGs came down in a minefield in SFOR's MND north sector.
Ugljevik and Bijeljina was named as towns near to the MiG-29 wreckage.
Peric survived but Radosavljevic was killed.
Eni23, what's your version on the MiG-29s?
>
> >Romania also closed Arad, Timisoara and Caransebes Airports
following a
> >NATO request To create a ‘safety zone’ around the Yugoslav border
>
> It is not the same situation as in Bolgaria. In Albania there are
only two
> airports, one in Tirana and one in Berat. The one in Berat is much
closer to
> the yugoslav border, and yet it was not closed. Berat is a military
airport
> were NATO based some UAVs. But if you close Rinas you are shutting
off the
> country from the rest of the world. NATO didn't even let the
president of
> Albania use it to fly to Italy. NATO stated that it closed the
airport for the
> construction work that was going on there and not for safety. And yet
when I
> visited the airport there was no construction work going on.
So all the construction work that I seen on the TV wasn't really going
on
then?
Sky News even carried a report on an RAF Logistics and Supply Officer
who
was in charge to see to the smooth-running of the operation and to
minimize
it's effect on operations. There was plenty of construction work to be
seen
going on. Convoys of lorries carrying gravel for to provide more
hardstandings were very much in evidence. So out of all the civilians
and
military personnel from numerous nationalities based there during the
supposed air-raid, not one thing has leaked or evidence has come
forward.
There must have been no fatalities either as we are dealing with the
human element here. NATO suffered no fatalaties as a direct consequence
of Serbian military action.
>
> Just because Venik states so doesn't mean I do also. I am not basing
anything
> on Venik's site. I am only telling you the facts about what I know
was heard
> and what I saw.
>
So where are the eye-witnesses to the supposed Serbian air-raid? Not one
thing has broken on the story.
It was in the interests of the Serbian military/civilian to promote
these
stories for the good of the war effort.
You just have to look at the number of Luftwaffe Tornados claimed shot
down
in the first few weeks of the conflict to see how important it was to
tell
the people what they wanted to hear. Attacks on targets inside
Montenegro
were limited by the veto of certain NATO members. When they were
allowed to
be hit they were hit fairly hard. The intensity of the CAPs to prevent
such
attacks taking place can be gauged by the fact that a Sea Harrier F/A 2
pilot conducted one CAP with four hours and thirty minutes on task with
a
total time airborne of five hours and fifty minutes. Tanking had to be
conducted four times. Consider the area monitoring by AWACS and the
CAPs and
you still say that Serbian attack aircraft made a successful attack and
flew
safely back!? It must be some cover-up if not one thing has broken
regarding the claimed air raid.!?
TJ1234
Eni23
>following a
Maybe you were fooled into believing there was any mayor con. work going on
there.The only thing they had done there was cover the whole area with gravel.
And that was done at the begining.For the other months they just did nothing
but closed the airport because of the "construction work" going on there.
As for civilians and personel they were all NATO. The airport is some 5km from
any inhabited area so no one but NATO personel witnessed the attack.And if you
think that anyone would tell you that their base was attacked and people were
killed,then you have some problems.
Simon H. Lee
line of high-kicking electrons to spell out:
>>total time airborne of five hours and fifty minutes. Tanking had to be
>>conducted four times. Consider the area monitoring by AWACS and the
>>CAPs and you still say that Serbian attack aircraft made a successful attack and
>>flew safely back!? It must be some cover-up if not one thing has broken
>>regarding the claimed air raid.!?
>As for civilians and personel they were all NATO. The airport is some 5km from
>any inhabited area so no one but NATO personel witnessed the attack.And if you
>think that anyone would tell you that their base was attacked and people were
>killed,then you have some problems.
I think everybody's already had this argument before... if I
remember all the other times tj and everyone else has gone over this,
considering the number of people involved, it's next to impossible to
cover up an event fo the nature you describe. It becomes even harder
if anyone's killed because people start asking "Hey, where's
Joe/Bob/Frank...?" and the press would have been all over
it--particularly since the Western press has never avoid looking to
the possibility that someone on our side might have died.
--
(-o-) A L L D O N E ! B Y E B Y E ! <*>
| __ "I'm not going to ask you if you just said |
| (__ * _ _ _ _ what I think you just said, because I know |
| __)|| | |(_)| \ it's what you just said." |
|___________________________________________________________________|
Keith Willshaw
Eni23 wrote in message <19991205103420...@ng-cn1.aol.com>...
>
>As for civilians and personel they were all NATO. The airport is some 5km
from
>any inhabited area so no one but NATO personel witnessed the attack.And if
you
>think that anyone would tell you that their base was attacked and people
were
>killed,then you have some problems.
And what do you think happens when Sargeant Joe Bloggs
and Private Tommy Atkins don't come home with the
rest of their unit ?
Don't you think their falilies might notice , and their friends
and comrades.
'The mans an eejit'
as my Irish friends would so
Keith
Eni23
>>As for civilians and personel they were all NATO. The airport is some 5km
>from
>>any inhabited area so no one but NATO personel witnessed the attack.And if
>you
>>think that anyone would tell you that their base was attacked and people
>were
>>killed,then you have some problems.
>
>And what do you think happens when Sargeant Joe Bloggs
>and Private Tommy Atkins don't come home with the
>rest of their unit ?
>
>Don't you think their falilies might notice , and their friends
>and comrades.
>
>'The mans an eejit'
>
> as my Irish friends would so
Well if you had read one of my earlyer posts I did say that the Apaches were
stationed several hundreds of meters from the airport, in a field were the
Albanian air force used to fide its planes among the trees.So maybe no one was
killed.
Keith Willshaw
Eni23 wrote in message <19991205153506...@ng-fx1.aol.com>...
>
>Well if you had read one of my earlyer posts I did say that the Apaches
were
>stationed several hundreds of meters from the airport, in a field were the
>Albanian air force used to fide its planes among the trees.So maybe no one
was
>killed.
So you think the Air Force leaves Helicopter Units Unmanned and
Unguarded in war time do you ?
No Pilots or maintenance crew were around huh , Not even a single
sentry. None of the people at the airport heard it I notice since
no rumor has come out and the military rumor mill is always grinding.
Your grasping at straws old boy.
Keith
TJ
Eni23 <en...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991205103420...@ng-cn1.aol.com...
> >> >Romania also closed Arad, Timisoara and Caransebes Airports
> >following a
on
> there.The only thing they had done there was cover the whole area with
gravel.
> And that was done at the begining.For the other months they just did
nothing
> but closed the airport because of the "construction work" going on there.
>
airport two days after the claimed air-raid?
http://www.af.mil/photos/Apr1999/19990428-f-5920l-005.html
http://www.af.mil/photos/Apr1999/19990428-f-5920l-010.html
http://www.af.mil/photos/Apr1999/19990428-f-5920l-010.html
.. or is the photographer all part of the cover-up?
> As for civilians and personel they were all NATO. The airport is some 5km
from
> any inhabited area so no one but NATO personel witnessed the attack.And if
you
> think that anyone would tell you that their base was attacked and people
were
> killed,then you have some problems.
You make a very sweeping statement that they were all NATO. No they were
not!
How about all the UNHCR and other relief aid personnel working there and not
forgetting the Swiss
Air Force who deployed AS 532 Cougar helicopters and personnel.? The
Austrians also had a helicopter contingenct flying Bell 212/4s . Austria and
Switzerland are not NATO members! Sky News also covered a human relations
story on two Albanian waitresses employed in a canteen on the base. We get
to the age old problem of what happened to the personnel killed at Rinas
then? What were their families and next of kin told? Material is one
thing but when you start dealing with the human element then you are into
the world of Venik and Mladen's cover-up theories. There have been many
public statements from high-ranking officials to the fact that no casualties
were taken as a direct result of Serbian military action, and yet not one
family or next of kin has claimed otherwise.
The same can be said for the claimed air-raid on Tuzla. The fact that a
Russian Colonel and his staff was based at the airport
to support the Russian brigade and to act as liason seems to escape whoever
conjured up the story. How about the Tuzla Fire Brigade who were staioned at
the airport. They certainly would have been involved in any fire-fighting
action. Still nothing has been revealed or come to light! The aircraft just
popped over the border and destroyed numerous 'NATO aircraft' without being
pursued by CAP. Whoever conjured up the story on the Tuzla raid also claimed
that one Orao was shot down by a NATO SAM.and the pilot killed. So, NATO is
hiding its shootdown claims now?!
So what happens to the helicopters destroyed in the claimed air-raid?
To do this you would have to inlude aircraft enthuisiasts like Mr Joe
Baugher who provides detailed lists of
US Army/Air Force/Marine/Navy serial numbers and their fate. ie crash, loss
in combat etc.
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher/
For example;
'88-26105/26120 Sikorsky UH-60A Blackhawk
to USAF as HH/MH-60G
26105 (66th RQS) collided Sept 4, 1998 at night with
91-26359 on Nellis range'
Also the guy and girls at the Dutch Aircraft Spotters group at:
http://www.scramble.nl/usaf.htm
For example if you type in their database serial 88-26105 you obtain the
following:
Scramble Database - Query Results
Registration - 88-26105
Code- WA
Type - HH-60G
Construction Number - ?
Squadron - 66th RQS
Status - w/o
First Noted - aug95
Last Noted - oct 97
Remarks - w/o 04 sep98, Combat Rescue School
You'll also find details of the F-117A and the F-16CG shotdown when you
enter their respective serials.
Too many independant people are monitoring these serials worldwide and
taking notes/photographs against established serial number lists and
aircraft types. The loss of these helicopters or any other NATO manned
aircraft claimed shotdown cannot be hidden.
TJ1234.
Eni23
>were
>>stationed several hundreds of meters from the airport, in a field were the
>>Albanian air force used to fide its planes among the trees.So maybe no one
>was
>>killed.
>
>So you think the Air Force leaves Helicopter Units Unmanned and
>Unguarded in war time do you ?
>
>No Pilots or maintenance crew were around huh , Not even a single
>sentry. None of the people at the airport heard it I notice since
>no rumor has come out and the military rumor mill is always grinding.
>
>Your grasping at straws old boy.
Well I don't know if anyone was killed, but if you think that you would have
been told about it you have some problems. Governments don't tell their people
evrything. Do you remmember the U-2 over the USSR. What did Eisenhouer tell you
guys, oh yea " it was a weather plane that just happened to stray over
Russia". You believed him didn't you. And remember Keneddy and the Cuban
crisis. He just forgot to tell you that you also had missiles in Turkey. Oh but
I guess that with all the personel there you would have found out about it. Yea
right!
Eni23
How naive you are. The runway was not damaged so planes could still land on
it.Just because a cupple of individuals who have no access to NATO don't have
any info. on this incident dosen't mean anything. And as for those humanitarean
teams and all, they came after this incident, sometime near the end of the
war.I don't know were you got that "albanian waitress" thing but if they didn't
let the president enter the airport, do you think they would let a cupple of
girls in.
Keith Willshaw
Eni23 wrote in message <19991205171314...@ng-ft1.aol.com>...
>
>How naive you are. The runway was not damaged so planes could still land on
>it.Just because a cupple of individuals who have no access to NATO don't
have
>any info. on this incident dosen't mean anything. And as for those
humanitarean
>teams and all, they came after this incident, sometime near the end of the
>war.I don't know were you got that "albanian waitress" thing but if they
didn't
>let the president enter the airport, do you think they would let a cupple
of
>girls in.
This statement is Untrue
From the World Food programmes website
http://www.wfp.org/OP/Countries/kosovo/990413.html
> On 12 April, NATO approved an operational plan for Albania which
>includes an assessment of emergency needs, concentrating on shelter
>and logistical support to Tirana Airport and the Port of Durres.
>NATO's presence, AFOR (Albania Force), is to supplement the
>ongoing emergency response and is expected to last a few months.
AND
> As of 14 April, Tirana airport will be in operation 24 hours a day for
Humanitarian Assistance.
AND from http://www.wfp.org/OP/Countries/kosovo/990414.html
> Some 11.98 tons of high energy biscuits arrived in Rinas on 14 April.
> They will be directed to priority areas in the South.
So the Aid agencies were indeed present at Rinas in Mid April
As to construction work there are details and photos at
http://www.af.mil/news/Apr1999/n19990420_990718.html
Stop lying please
Keith
Shawn D. Gahring
> Well I don't know if anyone was killed, but if you think that you would have
> been told about it you have some problems. Governments don't tell their people
> evrything. Do you remmember the U-2 over the USSR. What did Eisenhouer tell you
> guys, oh yea " it was a weather plane that just happened to stray over
> Russia". You believed him didn't you. And remember Keneddy and the Cuban
> crisis. He just forgot to tell you that you also had missiles in Turkey. Oh but
> I guess that with all the personel there you would have found out about it. Yea
> right!
Ummm, Spanky? I've got bad news for you. I flew over Albania during
the
campaign. There was no sign of the mighty Yugoslav Air Force to be
seen.
There was plenty of CAP. I hate to burst your bubble, but it never
happened.
S. Gahring
Keith Willshaw
Eni23 wrote in message <19991205165742...@ng-ft1.aol.com>...
>
>Well I don't know if anyone was killed, but if you think that you would
have
>been told about it you have some problems. Governments don't tell their
people
>evrything. Do you remmember the U-2 over the USSR. What did Eisenhouer tell
you
>guys, oh yea " it was a weather plane that just happened to stray over
>Russia". You believed him didn't you. And remember Keneddy and the Cuban
>crisis. He just forgot to tell you that you also had missiles in Turkey. Oh
but
>I guess that with all the personel there you would have found out about it.
Yea
>right!
Actually we knew all about BOTH issues. It was in the papers
and on the TV. BAD example oh dimwitted one.
Keith
TJ
on
> it.Just because a cupple of individuals who have no access to NATO don't
have
> any info. on this incident dosen't mean anything. And as for those
humanitarean
> teams and all, they came after this incident, sometime near the end of the
> war.I don't know were you got that "albanian waitress" thing but if they
didn't
> let the president enter the airport, do you think they would let a cupple
of
> girls in.
How very naive you are me old son!
You've already stated in an earlier post the...... 'The airport
was closed for weeks after this.'
The Swiss brought their Cougars in on the 7th April (is this the end of the
war?) and the Austrians were operating at roughly the same time. So,during
the attack personnel from non-NATO members were present on the base before
the attack took place. Sort of defeats your 'All - NATO' conspiracy of
silence theory, doesn't it.
23 April - UNHCR chopper waiting to be uploaded with aid -
3 days before the claimed air-raid.
http://www.af.mil/photos/Apr1999/19990423-f-2095r-021.html
28 April - Aid being shifted by civilian worker - White trucks/fork lift -
UNHCR ring a bell!!
http://www.af.mil/photos/Apr1999/19990428-f-6217s-507.html
Not really at the end of the hostilities, eh?
The proof defeats your own opinions and beliefs on the true events.
Please try again.
TJ1234.
Keith Willshaw
TJ wrote in message ...>news:19991205171314...@ng-ft1.aol.com...
>silence theory, doesn't it.
>23 April - UNHCR chopper waiting to be uploaded with aid -
>3 days before the claimed air-raid.
>http://www.af.mil/photos/Apr1999/19990423-f-2095r-021.html
>
>28 April - Aid being shifted by civilian worker - White trucks/fork lift -
>UNHCR ring a bell!!
>http://www.af.mil/photos/Apr1999/19990428-f-6217s-507.html
>
>Not really at the end of the hostilities, eh?
>
>The proof defeats your own opinions and beliefs on the true events.
>Please try again.
>
>TJ1234.
>
There are also details and photos of that construction work
that 'Didn't happen' on the 23 April
Thats a hell of a lot of stuff not happening there and a lot
of people who never existed.
Hmm
Keith
Eni23
Yes it was on TV after the Russians showed the pilot and after he admited to
espionge.And you were told by the press about those missiles a few years
latter.
Eni23
>> Some 11.98 tons of high energy biscuits arrived in Rinas on 14 April.
>> They will be directed to priority areas in the South.
>
>So the Aid agencies were indeed present at Rinas in Mid April
Yes ok it was one isolated event in which a plane or chopper came into rinas.
>As to construction work there are details and photos at
>
>http://www.af.mil/news/Apr1999/n19990420_990718.html
>
>Stop lying please
Well, all I see there is a picture of tent being build. That does not prove
anything.You are worst then Mladen showing that picture of stickers on Yugoslav
SAMs.
TJ
Keith Willshaw <keith_w...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:82euvm$i5i$1...@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com...
>
> TJ wrote in message ...
> >
Me thinks his version of events is rapidly falling apart.
TJ1234.
Eni23
>> Well I don't know if anyone was killed, but if you think that you would
>have
>> been told about it you have some problems. Governments don't tell their
>people
>> evrything. Do you remmember the U-2 over the USSR. What did Eisenhouer tell
>you
>> guys, oh yea " it was a weather plane that just happened to stray over
>> Russia". You believed him didn't you. And remember Keneddy and the Cuban
>> crisis. He just forgot to tell you that you also had missiles in Turkey. Oh
>but
>> I guess that with all the personel there you would have found out about it.
>Yea
>> right!
>
>the
>campaign. There was no sign of the mighty Yugoslav Air Force to be
>seen.
>There was plenty of CAP. I hate to burst your bubble, but it never
>happened.
I guess you are another one of those B-52 pilots?
Eni23
>>news:19991205171314...@ng-ft1.aol.com...
>
>
>>silence theory, doesn't it.
>>23 April - UNHCR chopper waiting to be uploaded with aid -
>>3 days before the claimed air-raid.
>>http://www.af.mil/photos/Apr1999/19990423-f-2095r-021.html
>>
>>28 April - Aid being shifted by civilian worker - White trucks/fork lift -
>>UNHCR ring a bell!!
>>http://www.af.mil/photos/Apr1999/19990428-f-6217s-507.html
>>
>>Not really at the end of the hostilities, eh?
>>
>>The proof defeats your own opinions and beliefs on the true events.
>>Please try again.
>>
>>TJ1234.
>>
>
>
>There are also details and photos of that construction work
>that 'Didn't happen' on the 23 April
>
>Thats a hell of a lot of stuff not happening there and a lot
>of people who never existed.
Well I guess I can not prove to you that there was no con. work going on there
since I don't have any pictures. But if you want to see for yourself, why don't
you just go there and see!
TJ
You also said in earlier posts:
'First of all, there was no expansion work going on there. I went to Albania
in
July after the war, and the airport was exactly the same. There were duzens
of
NATO trucks and choppers sitting around, But no work had been done. They had
just covered the hole area with gravel......
......The "aid" shipments did not come until after the war was over. The
airport was
closed for weeks after this incident. No one, not even the president of
Albania, was allowed to enter the airport. NATO placed tanks at the gates of
the airport.CNN was propably allowed in, and in all their broadcastings I
did
not see the airport, only a cupple of Apaches and NATO soldiers pretenditng
to
be working'
http://www.unhcr.ch/refworld/cgi-bin/newssearch.pl
'UNHCR Kosovo Crisis Update
Date: Saturday 24 April 1999
Title: KOSOVO CRISIS UPDATE
Text: Albania
....Over the past two days, a total of 41 planes carrying relief supplies
arrived in Tirana. The ICRC has begun daily flights to ferry relief supplies
to Bajram Curri, an area in northern Albania which has been plagued by
insecurity and banditry. The ICRC will provide assistance to approximately
2,300 Kosovar refugees living there. An estimated 5,000 internally displaced
Albanians are also believed to be in Bajram Curri, after having left their
villages near the border with Kosovo.'
Note the '41 planes carrying relief supplies arrived in Tirana'
Are these 41 planes more isolated incidents?
If you were there in July you might have seen some aircraft taxiways being
constructed.
http://www.af.mil/photos/Aug1999/19990713-f-9580z-001.html
http://www.af.mil/photos/Aug1999/19990712-f-9580z-006.html
Here we have members of 823rd Red Horse 'pretending to do some work' during
May:
http://www.af.mil/photos/May1999/19990507-f-3968s-009.html
http://www.af.mil/photos/Jun1999/19990525-f-2095r-003.html
http://www.af.mil/photos/Jun1999/19990525-f-2095r-010.html
http://www.af.mil/photos/Jun1999/19990525-f-2095r-012.html
Anymore claims!?
TJ1234.
Keith Willshaw
Eni23 wrote in message <19991205191709...@ng-ft1.aol.com>...
>>
>>Actually we knew all about BOTH issues. It was in the papers
>>and on the TV. BAD example oh dimwitted one.
>>
>
>Yes it was on TV after the Russians showed the pilot and after he admited
to
>espionge.And you were told by the press about those missiles a few years
>latter.
Nope it was in the British Papers at the time
Keith
Keith Willshaw
Eni23 wrote in message <19991205194934...@ng-ft1.aol.com>...
>
>Well, all I see there is a picture of tent being build. That does not prove
>anything.You are worst then Mladen showing that picture of stickers on
Yugoslav
>SAMs.
You snipped the following 2 URL's from you reply
http://www.wfp.org/OP/Countries/kosovo/990413.html
> On 12 April, NATO approved an operational plan for Albania which
>includes an assessment of emergency needs, concentrating on shelter
>and logistical support to Tirana Airport and the Port of Durres.
>NATO's presence, AFOR (Albania Force), is to supplement the
>ongoing emergency response and is expected to last a few months.
AND
> As of 14 April, Tirana airport will be in operation 24 hours a day for
Humanitarian Assistance.
This is presumably you couldn't wriggle of the hook
You have been caught lying Now Bugger off
theres a good troll
Keith
Eni23
First of all there was no UNHCR or any other organization in Rinas when I went
there.The airport is very small so if they were there I would have seen them.
They were in Tirana but no where near the airport. True 41 plane could have
come into Rinas ,however they were all US or other NATO transport planes
bringing in the supplies.I know so because there were two Hercules being
unloaded of their shippment of aid when I arrived there.Doring the next two
hours two more Hercules came in also carrying aid shippments.All these planes
were American.But they were called " planes bringing aid shippment to
Rinas".There were no troops or members of any other organization in Rinas at
the time I arrived there.Also when did I say the attack took place on April 26
(or whenever you said it was). I told you I don't know when it happened.
Eni23
>>>and on the TV. BAD example oh dimwitted one.
>>>
>>
>>Yes it was on TV after the Russians showed the pilot and after he admited
>to
>>espionge.And you were told by the press about those missiles a few years
>>latter.
>
>Nope it was in the British Papers at the time
>
>Keith
Yes, the British people knew, but the American peole did not. Its even worst
than I thought!
Eni23
Well the first URL does not prove anything.And as for the second, there is no
source.
Keith Willshaw
Eni23 wrote in message <19991206145212...@ng-cn1.aol.com>...
>>>Well, all I see there is a picture of tent being build. That does not
prove
>>>anything.You are worst then Mladen showing that picture of stickers on
>>Yugoslav
>>>SAMs.
>>
>>
>>You snipped the following 2 URL's from you reply
>>
>>
>>http://www.wfp.org/OP/Countries/kosovo/990413.html
>>
>
>Well the first URL does not prove anything.And as for the second, there is
no
>source.
Same dang web page old buddy
Why don't you look at some facts for a change instead of
making up fairy stories.
Keith
Keith Willshaw
Eni23 wrote in message <19991206143746...@ng-cn1.aol.com>...
>>
>>Note the '41 planes carrying relief supplies arrived in Tirana'
>>Are these 41 planes more isolated incidents?
>
>First of all there was no UNHCR or any other organization in Rinas when I
went
>there.The airport is very small so if they were there I would have seen
them.
>They were in Tirana but no where near the airport. True 41 plane could have
>come into Rinas ,however they were all US or other NATO transport planes
>bringing in the supplies.I know so because there were two Hercules being
>unloaded of their shippment of aid when I arrived there.Doring the next two
>hours two more Hercules came in also carrying aid shippments.All these
planes
>were American.But they were called " planes bringing aid shippment to
>Rinas".There were no troops or members of any other organization in Rinas
at
>the time I arrived there.Also when did I say the attack took place on April
26
>(or whenever you said it was). I told you I don't know when it happened.
The World Food Programme disagrees , so does UNHCR
Guess who we believe ?
Keith
Keith Willshaw
Eni23 wrote in message <19991206144840...@ng-cn1.aol.com>...
>
>Yes, the British people knew, but the American peole did not. Its even
worst
>than I thought!
Bwaaah HA HA HA
You missed your calling you should have been a comedian
Hint New York isnt Moscow , they dont confiscate British newspapers
there. In fact the British Govt at that time would have had a MUCH
easier time of suppressing news with the D Notice System
What a joik
Eni23
Should I look at some facts presented by your trusted government?
BUFDRVR
Yes you did, you said people in Tirana heard the explosions and that these
explosions were reported on Sky news as sonic booms. You were quite detailed
although I don't remember the date you claimed all this happened on.
BUFDRVR
"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"
Eni23
>
>Yes you did, you said people in Tirana heard the explosions and that these
>explosions were reported on Sky news as sonic booms. You were quite detailed
>although I don't remember the date you claimed all this happened on.
Go back and read my original message. Then you will see that I did say that my
friend did not remember when this all happened.
Iroquois
addresses.......
Iroquois
NE1outheir
>Date: Sun, 05 December 1999 04:57 PM EST
>Do you remmember the U-2 over the USSR. What did Eisenhouer tell you
>guys, oh yea " it was a weather plane that just happened to stray over
>Russia".
Which, when confronted with evidence, he admitted, so far you have provided no
evidence.
>And remember Keneddy and the Cuban
>crisis. He just forgot to tell you that you also had missiles in Turkey.
Which if any American wanted to do twenty minutes of research down at the local
library could have found out if they so wished to do so in 1959.
Eni23
>>guys, oh yea " it was a weather plane that just happened to stray over
>>Russia".
>
>Which, when confronted with evidence, he admitted, so far you have provided
>no
>evidence.
Sure he admitted, after the USSR showed the whole world the remains of the
aircraft and the pilot.I don't think that than he could have lied about it
then.And as for my evidence I just forgot to take some pictures of the airport.
But the evidence is there. Also the whole city of Tirana heard the explosion
noises, which could not have been sonic booms.And as for some people claiming
that the noises were sonic booms from CAP aircraft, then how come they were
never heard before or after the incident? Serbian aircreft constantly came into
Albania to attack KLA bases, and yet there was no CAP available.
Keith Willshaw
Eni23 wrote in message <19991211114516...@ng-fn1.aol.com>...
>
>Sure he admitted, after the USSR showed the whole world the remains of the
>aircraft and the pilot.I don't think that than he could have lied about it
>then.And as for my evidence I just forgot to take some pictures of the
airport.
>But the evidence is there. Also the whole city of Tirana heard the
explosion
>noises, which could not have been sonic booms.And as for some people
claiming
>that the noises were sonic booms from CAP aircraft, then how come they were
>never heard before or after the incident? Serbian aircreft constantly came
into
>Albania to attack KLA bases, and yet there was no CAP available.
Yea sure what ever you say buddy. Serbia waxed our ass real
good. The RAF and USAF were all shot down, no bridges
fell in the Danube and the Serbians still control Kosovo
In YOUR world
Just don't forget to take your medication tomorrow OK
Keith
TJ
> >>Do you remmember the U-2 over the USSR. What did Eisenhouer tell you
> >>guys, oh yea " it was a weather plane that just happened to stray over
> >>Russia".
> >
> >Which, when confronted with evidence, he admitted, so far you have
provided
> >no
> >evidence.
>
> aircraft and the pilot.I don't think that than he could have lied about it
> then.And as for my evidence I just forgot to take some pictures of the
airport.
> But the evidence is there. Also the whole city of Tirana heard the
explosion
> noises, which could not have been sonic booms.And as for some people
claiming
> that the noises were sonic booms from CAP aircraft, then how come they
were
> never heard before or after the incident? Serbian aircreft constantly came
into
> Albania to attack KLA bases, and yet there was no CAP available.
Another sweeping statement from yourself Eni23. 'Serbian aircraft constantly
came into Albania to attack KLA bases'
Constantly my ass! The occasions were very rare and only involved incidents
along the border regions. In fact the crash of a MiG in Albania may be
connected with Yugoslav authorities later admission that they had lost a
MiG-29 to friendly fire. The aircraft had been accidentally shot down by
Serb air defences with an SA-11 system, killing the pilot, Col Milenko
Obradovic. This incident occurred on May 11th and appeared in an update in
the October edition of Air Forces Monthly. If the CAPs didn't get them or
chase them off, then you could always rely on the good ol' Serbian gunners
to shoot them down instead! There were reports of Yugoslav choppers trying
to penetrate into Albania and being chased off by CAPs. Getting back to the
claimed attack on Rinas, don't you think that the Swiss and Austrian
Governments would have pulled out their helicopter, pilots and ground
personnel due to the risk of further attacks? Another question for you. How
is the loss of the AH-64s being covered up? How is this 'loss' being covered
up so that aircraft spotters and researchers into accidents/losses don't
figure it out?
TJ
Shawn D. Gahring
> Sure he admitted, after the USSR showed the whole world the remains of the
> aircraft and the pilot.I don't think that than he could have lied about it
> then.And as for my evidence I just forgot to take some pictures of the airport.
> But the evidence is there. Also the whole city of Tirana heard the explosion
> noises, which could not have been sonic booms.And as for some people claiming
> that the noises were sonic booms from CAP aircraft, then how come they were
> never heard before or after the incident? Serbian aircreft constantly came into
> Albania to attack KLA bases, and yet there was no CAP available.
"Serbian aircraft constantly came into Albania to attack KLA bases"?
When was this?
Given that during the air campaign, there were tankers orbiting over
Albania with
the attendant CAP support, I find it hard to believe that any Serbian
planes
entered Albanian airspace then. I never heard of a Serbian incursion
into that
airspace. Would you care to elaborate?
S. Gahring
TJ
> >Are these 41 planes more isolated incidents?
>
> First of all there was no UNHCR or any other organization in Rinas when I
went
> there.The airport is very small so if they were there I would have seen
them.
> They were in Tirana but no where near the airport. True 41 plane could
have
> come into Rinas ,however they were all US or other NATO transport planes
> bringing in the supplies.I know so because there were two Hercules being
> unloaded of their shippment of aid when I arrived there.Doring the next
two
> hours two more Hercules came in also carrying aid shippments.All these
planes
> were American.But they were called " planes bringing aid shippment to
> Rinas".There were no troops or members of any other organization in Rinas
at
> the time I arrived there.Also when did I say the attack took place on
April 26
First of all you make the statement of:
'As for civilians and personel they were all NATO'.
Wrong, as I've proved the presence of UNHCR and Swiss Air Force, and
Austrian Air Force personell
'Also the whole city of Tirana heard the explosion
noises, which could not have been sonic booms'
On which date did the 'whole city' hear the 'explosion noises?'
Also when did I say the attack took place on April 26
(or whenever you said it was). I told you I don't know when it happened.
Now you are disputing the Serb version of the claimed air-raid!
Out of the whole population of Tirana there must be someone that can tell us
the dates of the reported 'explosion noises'?
Were they reported in the press at the time. Do you have friends, relatives
who can provide this information?
What was the rough date of the Sky News report even?
The whole version of the Serb story surrounds the NATO air-raids that took
place against airfields in Montenegro, as if they were in retaliation to the
claimed strike on Rinas AFB. Same with the claimed Serb air-raid on Tuzla
AFB. The airfields in Serbia that the planes came from were struck after the
claimed air-raid. Can you even remember the date when you visited the
airbase?
If you are so convinced that an attack took place on Rinas, then why don't
you submit your claim/evidence to an aviation magazine editor?
TJ.
Stephen McCullough
>
>Sure he admitted, after the USSR showed the whole world the remains of the
>aircraft and the pilot.I don't think that than he could have lied about it
>then.And as for my evidence I just forgot to take some pictures of the
>airport.
>But the evidence is there. Also the whole city of Tirana heard the explosion
>noises, which could not have been sonic booms.And as for some people claiming
>that the noises were sonic booms from CAP aircraft, then how come they were
>never heard before or after the incident? Serbian aircreft constantly came
>into
>Albania to attack KLA bases, and yet there was no CAP available.
Proof, pictures. All seem lacking from your thesis. You remind of me of Noam
Chomesky. Never hestiate to bash America, yet you reside here, take advantage
of the civil, economic and poltical freedom you have and refuse to muddy your
ideas with such nonsense such as facts, figures and proof.
Stephen McCullough
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly."
Eni23
>>aircraft and the pilot.I don't think that than he could have lied about it
>>then.And as for my evidence I just forgot to take some pictures of the
>>airport.
>>But the evidence is there. Also the whole city of Tirana heard the explosion
>>noises, which could not have been sonic booms.And as for some people
>claiming
>>that the noises were sonic booms from CAP aircraft, then how come they were
>>never heard before or after the incident? Serbian aircreft constantly came
>>into
>>Albania to attack KLA bases, and yet there was no CAP available.
>
>Proof, pictures. All seem lacking from your thesis. You remind of me of Noam
>Chomesky. Never hestiate to bash America, yet you reside here, take advantage
>of the civil, economic and poltical freedom you have and refuse to muddy your
>ideas with such nonsense such as facts, figures and proof.
Didn't I just say I don't have any pictures? But it does not mean that it did
not happen because I don't have any pictures.As for proof , just ask someone
from Tirana,if they remember about it.Also you don't know anything about me or
why I reside in America so don't tell me the reasons.
Stephen McCullough
Ask someone from Tirana? Thats what passes for proof in your world? Post some
phone numbers if Albania has such a thing as working phones. Lets call around.
Probably they will say, damn that mladen, he is up to his old tricks again.
Abramovic
> >From: en...@aol.com (Eni23)
>
> >
> >Sure he admitted, after the USSR showed the whole world the remains of
the
> >aircraft and the pilot.I don't think that than he could have lied about
it
> >then.And as for my evidence I just forgot to take some pictures of the
> >airport.
> >But the evidence is there. Also the whole city of Tirana heard the
explosion
> >noises, which could not have been sonic booms.And as for some people
claiming
> >that the noises were sonic booms from CAP aircraft, then how come they
were
> >never heard before or after the incident? Serbian aircreft constantly
came
> >into
> >Albania to attack KLA bases, and yet there was no CAP available.
Have you ever heard a sonic boom? If you have, you'll know that a sonic
boom, depending upon conditions (weather, type of a/c, its altitude) can
sound very much like an explosion, and believe me I have heard both (and not
from 10 clicks away). And, serbian aircraft did not penetrate Albanian
airspace because they didn't get off the ground :).
Eni23
>boom, depending upon conditions (weather, type of a/c, its altitude) can
>sound very much like an explosion, and believe me I have heard both (and not
>from 10 clicks away)
I have heard sonic booms, but the point is that they could not have been sonic
booms as NATO claimed.
>And, serbian aircraft did not penetrate Albanian
>airspace because they didn't get off the ground :).
I suppose Mr.Shea told you that as well.The fact is that the border towns that
were used by the KLA were attacked by ground forces as well as aircrafts.
Keith Willshaw
Eni23 wrote in message <19991212201715...@ng-fx1.aol.com>...
>
>I suppose Mr.Shea told you that as well.The fact is that the border towns
that
>were used by the KLA were attacked by ground forces as well as aircrafts.
Yes we saw the courageous Serbian Army firing artillery against Albanian
border towns.
I find it strange that an Albanian would approve of that !
Keith
Abramovic
> >Have you ever heard a sonic boom? If you have, you'll know that a sonic
> >boom, depending upon conditions (weather, type of a/c, its altitude) can
> >sound very much like an explosion, and believe me I have heard both (and
not
> >from 10 clicks away)
>
> I have heard sonic booms, but the point is that they could not have been
sonic
> booms as NATO claimed.
>
> >And, serbian aircraft did not penetrate Albanian
> >airspace because they didn't get off the ground :).
>
that
> were used by the KLA were attacked by ground forces as well as aircrafts.
Question 1: Why could they not be sonic booms?
Reply 1: Mr. Shea didn't tell me anything. Most of the qualified maintenance
and flight personell left the air force after the breakup of Yugoslavia, as
they were mostly Slovenians and Croats. The ones that were left were shot
down during the Croatian war for independence. The serbian air force is a
poorly run (lack of comman cadre), poorly equipped (after the kosovo thing)
and to top it all, it has no morale whatsoever (comes with being bombed back
to the stone age).
Eni23
First of all I am sure that most people didn't care about the explosions or
just forgot about them. After all they were just "sonic booms".And no, my
friend does not remember when this happened.As for the date of my visit it was
sometime in July, about a week or so after the war.And as for non-NATO personel
in the airport , I think there was a Swiss Sa 319 but it was in the civilian
area of the airport, pretty far from where all the NATO helicopters were, so I
just thought it was visiting just like all the other planes there. But as for
UNHCR, there were none in the airport at the time I was there.As for the noises
they were just reported by Sky News. I am not aware of any other report.
Eni23
>came into Albania to attack KLA bases'
>Constantly my ass! The occasions were very rare and only involved incidents
>along the border regions.
I already said it involved border regions.
> In fact the crash of a MiG in Albania
What crash of a mig in Albania?
>There were reports of Yugoslav choppers trying
>to penetrate into Albania and being chased off by CAPs.
And yet they still were able to penetrate the CAP defences.Also some people
claimed that the "sonic booms" could have come from these CAP aircraft. Well
then why weren't these "sonic booms" heard before or after the incident?
>How
>is the loss of the AH-64s being covered up? How is this 'loss' being covered
>up so that aircraft spotters and researchers into accidents/losses don't
>figure it out?
Well it is not very hard to hide something from a bunch of guys with binoculars
standing outside air bases.Also there were no spotters or researchers in
Albania at the time since the airport was closed.
Eni23
>that
>>were used by the KLA were attacked by ground forces as well as aircrafts.
>
>border towns.
>
>I find it strange that an Albanian would approve of that !
>
>Keith
Well I do approve of it if my government allows terrorist groups to operate
inside its territory.Besids they were not bombing Albanians but the KLA.
Keith Willshaw
Eni23 wrote in message <19991213172349...@ng-cf1.aol.com>...
>
>First of all I am sure that most people didn't care about the explosions or
>just forgot about them. After all they were just "sonic booms".And no, my
>friend does not remember when this happened.As for the date of my visit it
was
>sometime in July, about a week or so after the war.And as for non-NATO
personel
>in the airport , I think there was a Swiss Sa 319 but it was in the
civilian
>area of the airport, pretty far from where all the NATO helicopters were,
so I
>just thought it was visiting just like all the other planes there. But as
for
>UNHCR, there were none in the airport at the time I was there.
Too bad but they were there whan you claim the raid happened
23 April - UNHCR chopper waiting to be uploaded with aid -
>> >> >>3 days before the claimed air-raid.
>> >> >>http://www.af.mil/photos/Apr1999/19990423-f-2095r-021.html
>> >> >>
>> >> >>28 April - Aid being shifted by civilian worker - White trucks/fork
>> >lift -
>> >> >>UNHCR ring a bell!!
>> >> >>http://www.af.mil/photos/Apr1999/19990428-f-6217s-507.html
Keith
Keith Willshaw
Eni23 wrote in message <19991213175527...@ng-cf1.aol.com>...
>
>Well I do approve of it if my government allows terrorist groups to operate
>inside its territory.Besids they were not bombing Albanians but the KLA.
Yes shrapnel from Artillery shells is so polite.
It always asks the nationality of the victim before killing them
What a moron
Keith
Eni23
Well they could not be sonic booms because there were NATO planes in that area,
as Sky News reported that they were caused by NATO planes.There were no NATO
planes over Albania because all planes going into Serbia came in from the west
and north, not the south. And if they were CAP then why were they never heard
Eni23
I didn't say anything about when it happened. I just saied that.
Eni23
>>inside its territory.Besids they were not bombing Albanians but the KLA.
>
>Yes shrapnel from Artillery shells is so polite.
>
>It always asks the nationality of the victim before killing them
>
>What a moron
>
>Keith
Well actually no Albanian was killed or injured in the bombings. That is
because those towns were operated only by the KLA.
Michael Williamson
All planes going into Serbia may have come from the North and West, but there
were aircraft over Albania during most of the conflict. CAP aircraft were also on
station over Albania.
Mike
Keith Willshaw
Eni23 wrote in message <19991213221821...@ng-fn1.aol.com>...
>>Question 1: Why could they not be sonic booms?
>
>Well they could not be sonic booms because there were NATO planes in that
area,
>as Sky News reported that they were caused by NATO planes.There were no
NATO
>planes over Albania because all planes going into Serbia came in from the
west
>and north, not the south. And if they were CAP then why were they never
heard
>before or after the incident?
Ah got your own private AWACS now have you
Go away stupid troll we know you now.
Keith
Keith Willshaw
Eni23 wrote in message <19991213222116...@ng-fn1.aol.com>...
>
>I didn't say anything about when it happened. I just saied that.
And yet you say there were no aid workers there
And you say there were no witnesses
And you know by some mental powers only you
possess there were no NATO aircraft around
And SKY news reported it you say
But you cant remember when?
NAW There's only one reasonable conclusin
You werent there and it didn't happen you are just
a lying troll.
So SOD OFF
Keith
TJ
> >Another sweeping statement from yourself Eni23. 'Serbian aircraft
constantly
> >came into Albania to attack KLA bases'
> >Constantly my ass! The occasions were very rare and only involved
incidents
> >along the border regions.
>
> I already said it involved border regions.
>
> > In fact the crash of a MiG in Albania
>
> What crash of a mig in Albania?
I was quoting the report in Air Forces Monthly. Air Forces Monthly were
linking it up with the NATO press conference.
My original post:
'In fact the crash of a MiG in Albania may be
connected with Yugoslav authorities later admission that they had lost a
MiG-29 to friendly fire. The aircraft had been accidentally shot down by
Serb air defences with an SA-11 system, killing the pilot, Col Milenko
Obradovic. This incident occurred on May 11th and appeared in an update in
the October edition of Air Forces Monthly'.
Report from the press conference:
'12 May 1999 Press Conferences
NATO HQ
Brussels
Press Conference
given by NATO Spokesman, Jamie Shea and SHAPE Spokesman, Major General
Walter Jertz
Question: General Jertz, can you shed some light on the story in Byron,
Albania? Apparently, KLA forces were bombed by a plane yesterday - we got
pictures of that at home - and then the AP this morning said that they had
been bombed by a Yugoslav plane which then crashed or landed on the Albanian
side and the pilots are unheard of. Could you explain the whole incident and
what happened to the plane and what is going on, please?
Major General Jertz : I have seen the reports about it and we have some
background information on it but we are still investigating the whole case.
Same Questioner: Inside Albania?
Major General Jertz : No, according to our information it was in Kosovo but
we are investigating the case and have no more information on that. I also
heard, as you have, that the aircraft was downed but we do not know who
downed it.
Same Questioner: You do not know who downed it, but not NATO?
Major General Jertz : We didn't, no.'
The wreck of the Serbian aircraft was shown on Sky News and the KLA claimed
that they had shot it down.
This wreckage was filmed just inside Kosovo.
>
> >There were reports of Yugoslav choppers trying
> >to penetrate into Albania and being chased off by CAPs.
>
> And yet they still were able to penetrate the CAP defences.Also some
people
> claimed that the "sonic booms" could have come from these CAP aircraft.
Well
> then why weren't these "sonic booms" heard before or after the incident?
Obviously you didn't take note of the 'trying' and 'chased off'.
Hungary also reported that on one occassion that Serbian aircraft had tried
to penetrate their airspace but were chased off by NATO fighters on CAP.
>
> >How
> >is the loss of the AH-64s being covered up? How is this 'loss' being
covered
> >up so that aircraft spotters and researchers into accidents/losses don't
> >figure it out?
>
> Well it is not very hard to hide something from a bunch of guys with
binoculars
> standing outside air bases.Also there were no spotters or researchers in
> Albania at the time since the airport was closed.
I'm not talking about people standing outside Rinas, I'm talking about now!
How is the loss of up to a dozen Apaches , as you claim or think were
destroyed, covered up so that researchers don't find out about it. Have you
ever visited the Scramble Intelligence Site (Dutch Spotters) they have a
data base which includes US Army serials . I'm afraid the old Venik case of
aircraft A being lost in peace-time accident to cover up the loss of
aircraft B in a combat situation doesn't really work.
'Eni23' or whoever you are clutching at straws once again!
TJ.
Eni23
>>
>> Well they could not be sonic booms because there were NATO planes in that
>area,
>> as Sky News reported that they were caused by NATO planes.There were no
>NATO
>> planes over Albania because all planes going into Serbia came in from the
>west
>> and north, not the south. And if they were CAP then why were they never
>> before or after the incident?
>
>there
>were aircraft over Albania during most of the conflict. CAP aircraft were
>also on
>station over Albania.
>
>Mike
Sure there were aircraft over Albania at the time. But, they were only C-130
and other transport or light type.As for those CAP I am not so sure since they
were never heard before or after.
Eni23
>
>And yet you say there were no aid workers there
>
>And you say there were no witnesses
>
>And you know by some mental powers only you
>possess there were no NATO aircraft around
>
>And SKY news reported it you say
>
>But you cant remember when?
>
>NAW There's only one reasonable conclusin
>
>You werent there and it didn't happen you are just
>a lying troll.
>
>So SOD OFF
>
Ok, just when did I say that I was there when it happened? I saied I wen't
there in July. At that time there was no con. work, no UNHCR or any other org.
in the airport.There were of corse eyewitnesses but they were NATO because
there was no one else there.And as for NATO planes over Albania, it wasn't me
who said there weren't any, but NATO did.According to NATO no combat planes
flew into Serbia from Albania. And Sky news did report it in Albania. I didn't
hear it but my friend did.
Eni23
Well there you have it then. Yugoslav planes did attack inside Albania and
apparently this one was shot down, not by your CAP.
>> >How
>> >is the loss of the AH-64s being covered up? How is this 'loss' being
>covered
>> >up so that aircraft spotters and researchers into accidents/losses don't
>> >figure it out?
>>
>> Well it is not very hard to hide something from a bunch of guys with
>binoculars
>> standing outside air bases.Also there were no spotters or researchers in
>> Albania at the time since the airport was closed.
>
>I'm not talking about people standing outside Rinas, I'm talking about now!
>How is the loss of up to a dozen Apaches , as you claim or think were
>destroyed, covered up so that researchers don't find out about it. Have you
>ever visited the Scramble Intelligence Site (Dutch Spotters) they have a
>data base which includes US Army serials . I'm afraid the old Venik case of
>aircraft A being lost in peace-time accident to cover up the loss of
>aircraft B in a combat situation doesn't really work.
>
>'Eni23' or whoever you are clutching at straws once again!
>TJ.
I don't have any idea how it is being covered up.How am I supposed to now? Why
don't you ask Mr.Shea and General Jertz.
Abramovic
> >Question 1: Why could they not be sonic booms?
>
> Well they could not be sonic booms because there were NATO planes in that
area,
> as Sky News reported that they were caused by NATO planes.There were no
NATO
> planes over Albania because all planes going into Serbia came in from the
west
> and north, not the south. And if they were CAP then why were they never
heard
> before or after the incident?
"western imperialist" TV station like Sky News.
Eni23
>>
>>Well they could not be sonic booms because there were NATO planes in that
>area,
>>as Sky News reported that they were caused by NATO planes.There were no
>NATO
>>planes over Albania because all planes going into Serbia came in from the
>west
>>and north, not the south. And if they were CAP then why were they never
>heard
>>before or after the incident?
>
>
>
>Go away stupid troll we know you now.
>
>Keith
Well actually it was NATO that saied that their planes went in from the North
and West, not me.
Keith Willshaw
Eni23 wrote in message <19991214161552...@ng-fk1.aol.com>...
>
>Ok, just when did I say that I was there when it happened? I saied I wen't
>there in July. At that time there was no con. work, no UNHCR or any other
org.
>in the airport.
Sorry either you are blind or you are a liar
from http://www.af.mil/photos/Jul1999/990713-F-9580Z-001.html
Senior Airman Alex Hall (r.), and Staff Sgt. Tommy Lucero, both Pavement and
Equipment Specialists from the 820th Red Horse Squadron from Nellis Air
Force Base, Nev., move the concrete saw after making traction joints in the
concrete form poured the night before. Red Horse, consisting of 80
personnel, has been tasked to construct a new taxiway Bravo which will be a
concrete structure running 15 inches thick, 75 feet wide and 1,016 feet long
across Rinas Airport in Albania. (U.S. Air Force photo by Senior Airman
Patty Zimmerman)
see also
http://www.af.mil/photos/Jul1999/990713-F-9580Z-007.html
from http://www.af.mil/news/Jun1999/n19990617_991192.html
Brought into Albania from April 4 to May 21, the supplies included around
700,000 humanitarian daily rations, 8,000 blankets and 4,000 tents. These
figures do not include the contributions by other nations to the
humanitarian relief effort, which JTF Shining Hope continues to support.
Close to 700 U.S. Air Force, Army, Navy and Marine Corps members have
deployed to Tirana in support of JTF Shining Hope, which also involved about
19 countries taking part in the humanitarian effort to help the Kosovar
refugees
>There were of corse eyewitnesses but they were NATO because
>there was no one else there.And as for NATO planes over Albania, it wasn't
me
>who said there weren't any, but NATO did.According to NATO no combat planes
>flew into Serbia from Albania. And Sky news did report it in Albania. I
didn't
>hear it but my friend did.
Just another Mladen - how sad
Keith
BUFDRVR
>who said there weren't any, but NATO did.According to NATO no combat planes
>flew into Serbia from Albania
NATO never made any such comments.
BUFDRVR
"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"