The Grave of Hanna Reitsch
Rob Arndt
Dudley Henriques
> http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pif&GScid=2134472&GRid=14141351&FLgrid=14141351&PIgrid=14141351&PIcrid=2134472&ShowCemPhotos=Y&
>
> Rob
It's interesting to note on Hanna's grave, the huge headstone. The same
format was used for Galland's grave in Remagen-Oberwinter. The way I got
the story is that this was done to discourage grave robbers and desecration.
--
Dudley Henriques
Dan
> http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pif&GScid=2134472&GRid=14141351&FLgrid=14141351&PIgrid=14141351&PIcrid=2134472&ShowCemPhotos=Y&
>
> Rob
Oh look, a public urinal.
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Rob Arndt
> Rob Arndt wrote:
> >http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pif&GScid=2134472&GRid=...
>
> > Rob
>
> � Oh look, a public urinal.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
You are beyond a doubt the lowest scum on earth to say that. Hanna was
a pre-war pioneer aviatrix and goodwill ambassador promoting gliding
to the world. During the war she performed her duties with a fierce
loyalty not to Hitler, but the Fatherland. What was her sin? She loved
flying and wanted to test fly every new Reich a/c? She was neither a
Nazi Party member nor a member of the armed forces. She was shown
great favoritism by the Nazi hierarchy b/c they used her as a
propaganda tool and lied to her about the Holocaust. She DID confront
Himmler on the issue, but was falsely led to believe it was Allied
propaganda to smear Germany and Hitler. Did you know she was brought
before a commission pre-war for standing up for Jews when Kristalnacht
happened and also had a half-Jewish pilot friend that defended her
publicly after the war? She may have been naive and overly patriotic,
but that is no crime. She was no war criminal in any sense and people
tend to take her whole life and reduce it to her trip to Berlin with
Von Greim. If you ever bothered to read any of her biographies and
autobiography, Hanna, when she met Hitler in person, was reviled of
him, but respected his authority as leader of the Fatherland. She had
been taught as a child to obey in traditional Prussian style of her
German father. Her Austrian mother always considered herself German as
borders and lines on maps meant little compared to heritage and blood.
Hanna obeyed to the bitter end. You need to stop believing in Allied
postwar manipulation of Hanna. Had she joined the US and come to
America, then she would have sold out and been a heroine here too. But
she was loyal to Germany and refused. The CIC, USFET, and other
organizations took her words and distorted them to the point of lying.
The first book published about her contained 104 errors which the
Stars & Stripes, American and British newspapers, and other
periodicals around the world accepted w/o question. Under occupation
laws her words taken down by the US interrogators should have been
signed- they never were and the laws were different for the victors
and the vanquished. Hanna refused to be anyone's puppet postwar and b/
c she held close ties with the old Luftwaffe pilots community she was
suspected of many false schemes and scandals to resurrect the
Luftwaffe, which is absurd under occupation. All she did was try to
keep the pilots together in Germany to promote gliding as sport again
and to ensure there would BE a Luftwaffe re-created at a future time.
Many of Germany's best pilots moved abroad postwar. Hanna was vilified
for the rest of her life due to that flight into Berlin and for
allegedly covering up facts about Hitler's last days. She wasn't even
present when he killed himself and therfore could not attest to his
whereabouts immediately postwar as the Soviets kept that information
to themselves. She was always suspect about everything even though she
promoted both German-American relations and German-French relations.
She took up gliding as soon as possible and again became ambassador to
the world for that sport. She set new world records. She met with
leaders of several nations on good terms. She loved to fly and loved
the Fatherland. So where is the crime? Being naive? Being idealistic
even under total war conditions? Being desperate with the proposed
suicide squads that never happened? Promoting female fighter pilots to
Hitler? What, Dan, is your problem with her??? I guess just being a
German is good enough for you. You know that she denounced Goering
publicly and Himmler to his face in 1945? Although she thought Hitler
had been misled by other people who commited such heinous acts against
the Jews, in 1945 she was shown the Holocaust photos of Dachau and
condemned Hitler in the end of being a criminal. She went to great
lengths to help de-Nazify the nation as was classifed herself as de-
nazified in 1947. She died in 1979, and was quietly buried as she had
wished.
Rob
Dan
To the day she died she regretted not suiciding in the ashes of the
Reich with her beloved Hitler. I suggest you research other sources than
her autobiography, felicity. You may be in love with her, but those of
us who know what a Nazi slime she was aren't.
In any event, she died while I was in Germany so I had to settle on
using grave markers of SS untermenschen.
Rob Arndt
>
> - Show quoted text -
You show your stupidity once again. Hanna not only ultimately got rid
of the cyanide pill Hitler gave her, but refused to use it during the
worst depressions of her life, jailtime, and persecutions as well as
all postwar vilification of her character. She also refused to kill
herself after Von Greim did- a broken vow. She loved Von Greim and yet
there never was a physical relationship b/c she held a puritanical
belief in marriage and her first love of flight. Many believe she died
a virgin. Through the efforts of two Catholic priests, Hanna was able
to reconcile her patriotism with her faith in God and ended up in some
missionary capacity in the end. You are probably unaware that Hanna
was brought up in a Catholic household and her Christian mother Emy
Reitsch kept her in constant prayer during the war until her death in
1945 at the hands of her husband (who thought it best to kill his
wife, their daughter Heidi, his 3 grandchildren, their maid, and then
himself for the Fatherland and to prevent death at the hands of the
Russians at any cost). HE took the easy way out, not Hanna. You do
know that she was to be a flying missionary doctor to Africa in the
beginning, right? She studied to be a doctor but was granted
permission to learn to fly by her father and then her destiny changed
as she was a gifted, natural pilot. It must annoy the hell out of you
that your God (if you're not a fucking atheist Jew) protected Hanna
from age 4 (when she climbed the balcony to "fly" off a multi-story
building) all the way through the war and her entire life. She should
have died at least 7 times in her life (once as a 4 yr old child on
the balcony railing, once caught in a thunderstorm in a glider, once
refused on a flight on the Me-321 which subsequently crashed and
killed both pilots, once in the V-1 with a water warhead when the
plughole froze until the last seconds before landing, 2 times in a/c
accidents with the Me-321 and Me-163, and the fateful trip to Berlin
under seige in 1945). God must have LOVED Hanna Reitsch very much :)
Rob
Keith Willshaw
"Rob Arndt" <teut...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:b4dc7c46-4861-4614...@w8g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 26, 8:27?am, Dan <B2...@aol.com> wrote:
> Rob Arndt wrote:
> >http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pif&GScid=2134472&GRid=...
>
> publicly and Himmler to his face in 1945?
Well yes but the reason was not their Nazi ideology but
what she saw as the betrayal of her beloved Fuhrer. She
flew to the headquarters of Himmler and other leaders to urge
them to continue fighting for the Nazi cause
> Although she thought Hitler had been misled by other people who
> commited such heinous acts against the Jews, in 1945 she was shown
> the Holocaust photos of Dachau and condemned Hitler in the end of
> being a criminal.
<irony mode on>
Of course criminals always tell the truth when caught
<irony mode off>
> She went to great lengths to help de-Nazify the nation as was classifed
> herself as de-nazified in 1947.
That doesnt fit well with her own words during interrogation
"It was the blackest day when we could not die at our Führer's side."
"We should all kneel down in reverence and prayer before the altar
of the Fatherland." When the interviewers asked what she meant by
"Altar of the Fatherland" she answered, "Why, the Führer's bunker in
Berlin..."[
Her words in an interview with a US journalist in the 70's are telling
"Many Germans feel guilty about the war. But they don't explain the
real guilt we share - that we lost."
Note that post war she chose to live outside Germany for much
of the time only returning in 1954
> She died in 1979, and was quietly buried as she had wished.
She committed suicide and in a letter to Eric Brown told him
that he had never understood the depth of her love for the fatherland
and ended by saying 'It began in the bunker and there it shall end'
De-Nazified my ass.
Keith
Rob Arndt
> "Rob Arndt" <teuton...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:b4dc7c46-4861-4614...@w8g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 26, 8:27?am, Dan <B2...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > Rob Arndt wrote:
> > >http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pif&GScid=2134472&GRid=...
>
> > You know that she denounced Goering
> > publicly and Himmler to his face in 1945?
>
> Well yes but the reason was not their Nazi ideology but
> what she saw as the betrayal of her beloved Fuhrer. She
> flew to the headquarters of Himmler and other leaders to urge
> them to continue fighting for the Nazi cause
Not true. She hated Goering the entire time and never sought him for
permission to fly what she wanted. Emy Reitsch, Hanna's mother, had
warned her about Himmler until he sent her cards, flowers, and gifts
to the hospital after her accident in the Me-163. Both were surprised
by the kind acts and reconsidered if the nice man was really evil or
not. However, she DID confront Himmler with evidence of the Holocaust
provided by a friend but was misled to believe it WAS Allied
propaganda to smear Germany and Hitler. When she lost Udet and other
high-ranking Luftwaffe officials for the proposed suicide squads, she
turned to Himmler for support to keep flying the Me-328 and R.IVs.
>
> > Although she thought Hitler had been misled by other people who
> > commited such heinous acts against the Jews, in 1945 she was shown
> > the Holocaust photos of Dachau and condemned Hitler in the end of
> > being a criminal.
>
> <irony mode on>
> Of course criminals always tell the truth when caught
> <irony mode off>
What crime did she commit during the entire war? She was a test-pilot.
>
> > She went to great lengths to help de-Nazify the nation as was classifed
> > herself as de-nazified in 1947.
>
> That doesnt fit well with her own words during interrogation
>
> "It was the blackest day when we could not die at our F�hrer's side."
>
> "We should all kneel down in reverence and prayer before the altar
> of the Fatherland." When the interviewers asked what she meant by
> "Altar of the Fatherland" she answered, "Why, the F�hrer's bunker in
> Berlin..."[
All of which was assumed free talk and not interrogation. But hte
Americans were recording everything she said and made an offcial
report. Her words were then altered from the interrogation records. As
for the altar of the Fatherland, it was spoken postwar when Germany's
survival was at stake. Hanna wanted Germany and German aviation to
survive. that was uncertain in 1945- Year Zero.
>
> Her words in an interview with a US journalist in the 70's are telling
>
> "Many Germans feel guilty about the war. But they don't explain the
> real guilt we share - that we lost."
What does that tell? Truthfully? That the Germans are ashamed they
lost a second world war? that is an honest statement. Hanna certainly
wanted to win a war that she thought the Fuhrer was fighting against
communism which ironically wan not alright from the Allied POV until
the Cold War that ran from 1945- 1994! She did not know of the
Holocaust's reality and certainty until post-VE Day. I find nothing in
that statement taken within Hanna's context as pro-Nazi. As she stated
repeatedly in her book and to her friends and colleagues- she fought
for the Fatherland, not Hitler personally. She was also not under any
oath to serve Hitler, unlike the SS.
>
> Note that post war she chose to live outside Germany for much
> of the time only returning in 1954
Irrelevent as she was flying in various nations, starting gliding
schools, competing in sport flying, setting new world records, etc...
>
> > She died in 1979, and was quietly buried as she had wished.
>
> She committed suicide and in a letter to Eric Brown told him
> that he had never understood the depth of her love for the fatherland
> and ended by saying 'It began in the bunker and there it shall end'
The suicide myth is just that- a myth. Hanna had seen more desperate
times in the immediate postwar years than in her latter years of
recovery. She had heart problems diagnosed in the Third Reich and by
Allied doctors postwar. Just before her death she informed Gisela
Holzrichter over the phone that she had pains in her chest. She was
exhausted from a long and strtenuous flight in the US. Karl Pehl had
dinner with her before she died and noticed that she was physically
exhausted (not emotionally distraught). She died that very night and
was found the next morning by Fraulein Walter. She had a heart attack.
Because the cyanide capsule was never found among her possessions the
suicide rumor persisted for a long time afterwards. But she also had a
gun which had never been fired in her possession. Fraulein Walter was
loyal to Hanna and would not allow others to smear her name with this
absurd myth.
Eric Brown was Hanna's friend one minute pre-war, then wrote her off
as a propaganda tool when reports came in of her testing highly-secret
a/c, then contemplated kidnapping her for Britain before turning her
in to the Americans, they interrogated her when she WAS an emotion
wreck after the death of her parents and Von Greim, then friendly
again, critical, friendly...
I don't trust much about Brown nor anything he has to say about Hanna
Reitsch. All we have is his pre-war word. She changed so drastically
during the war and afterwards that his views became political, even
though she was not.
Rob
>
> De-Nazified my ass.
>
> Keith
Dan
Interesting, I don't agree with your slavish devotion to Hanna and
this rates personal attacks by you? You haven't changed a bit.
Dudley Henriques
I only met the woman once, and that was at an occasion where I didn't
really have a chance to say much more than hello to her, but all through
the years I have been close to military aviation and the government,
everybody I have ever spoken to who knew anything at all about Miss
Reitsch including one General Officer (an O10) who, as a junior officer
was actually present when she was interrogated after her capture, have
told me without exception that Miss Reitsch was indeed friendly to the
Nazi cause and especially close to Hitler, whom she admired greatly.
I would add that the general consensus of the people I have talked with
concerning Miss Reitsch through the years is that her political leanings
were not all that surprising. Her main love was flying, and when the
Nazi's came into power, everything she wanted to do in life was in their
direct control.
This, and her mentors in the Luftwaffe would have explained how she
could have been "indoctrinated" or at least coerced .
As I say, I'm not an "expert" on Miss Reitsch, and I'm far from being a
"historian" but just based on my first hand experience with real people
who were close to her story I would treat the many articles and stories
and books written about her that deny the above with at least some
suspicion.
--
Dudley Henriques
Rob Arndt
>
> - Show quoted text -
It doesn't matter if those people were first-hand witnesses or not if
they came from the Allied camp. Her interrogation was botched,
different US agencies tried to enlist her- which she blatantly
refused. And even in her German circles, there were those that
resented her pr were jealous of the favoritism that followed her every
advance in Nazi Germany. She was, after all, just a petite little
blonde girl who was never in the Luftwaffe but was made Flugkapitan,
won the Iron Cross First and Second Classes as well as the diamond
pin, leapt ahead of all of the male test pilots, and got her way
almost 100% of the time by by-passing her superiors for high-profile
Luftwaffe Generals and even Hitler himself. 1945 will always be
remembered as a time of insanity in that Berlin underworld and Hanna
was drawn in to that circle of death-seekers. She had NOT, however,
given in and fulfilled her last missions up until arrest. She had the
cyanide capsule with her for many years and while contemplating it had
strength of character and will to move ahead. She had opportunities in
many nations to live in luxury and to fly military a/c- she declined
as this insulted her patriotism which never diminished. She survived
the deaths of her family and of Von Greim. Where else could she turn?
To the Luftwaffe crowd and once W. Germany came into being- a retun to
what she did best, flying all over the world.
Ask yourself, military or not, if YOU had gone through such fame and
accomplishment to utter ruin and despair, leaderless and alone, with a
huge part of the world wanting to vilify you... would you not have
taken the cyanide capsule ASAP? Most would have and DID. She DIDN'T.
As I have stated many times before, she had the chance to come to
America and be a sell-out for aviation and even spaceflight. She
refused b/c she was a patriot for Germany and would not compromise her
honor. In this case the fat juicy American carrot failed. How do you
think they then wanted to portray Hanna? Well, she MUST be a Nazi if
she doesn't respond to the luxury of capitalism and US puppet
manipulation...
Same for Britain, that could have had her if Brown had indeed
kidnapped her. During the war they couldn't even get her name right in
the press. She was listed as Anna Reitsch. And Hugh Trevor-Roper's
book contained 104 errors in it- things Hanna either didn't say under
US interogation or unflattering words mixed in. She complained
bitterly over these and other gross erors and malignment in the book,
as well as armed forces newspapers and public newspapers around the
world. the only way to defeat that was to continue to speak in public
and resume flying.
She was under tremendous pressure all due what amounted to the bunker
incident as the defining point of her entire career as far as the
Allies were concerned, the frustrating unknown whereabouts of Hitler
of the time by the West, and b/c she denied to be used by the US and
Britain as puppet postwar. The most damaging pain, however, was the
death of the Third Reich and those that she loved dearly. No one has a
right to blame her for the Holocaust of which she could not really
know about (nor believe), any form of war crime, and for being a
patriot in 1945 after the collapse when everyone else threw in the
towel.
A lifetime of vilification had not broken her and therefore she MUST
be a Nazi was the prevailing attitude that she had to deal with
everyday.
I have read ALL of her books and do not see it that way at all. She
was a heroine, pioneer aviatrix, loving daughter of strict parents
(she always called them or visited then when she could to ask their
permission/blessing on her endeavors even as an adult), good friend to
those that got to know her, and loyal to a fault.
Let the historians say what they want about her- history is written by
the victors. These same people go beyond vilifying Hitler for crimes
he DID commit, but also REFUSE to admit he had any humanity at all.
The truth even in the bunker was that he was far from insane, made
personal as well as strategic decisions (even if misled or wrong),
loved his dog Blondi and animals in general, and children such as the
Goebbels family. We are revolted by "Uncle Hitler" and say he killed
Blondi to merely test the cyanide capsules. Not true again. He
demonstrated that he loved those children and Blondi could not be
taken by the Russians to be tortured and killed. Hitler was merciful
to her just as Magda Goebbels was with her children. rest assured that
all of her children became the property of God and reside in heaven.
Magda had truly saved them from being raped, tortured, and killed by
the Russians. Many ordinary Germans also committed suicide rather than
face the horde from the East that raped everyone they could in Berlin.
Traudl Junge in "Downfall" is portrayed as escaping the bunker with a
child and to safety. The truth, that even as just a secretary for
Hitler, she was gang-raped many times by the Russians. the German
director did not want to put that into the film as the ending but
rather Junge's latter years reflecting on her role in Nazi Germany as
an idealistic young girl who knew nothing of the Holocaust until she
was shown proof. If Junge was not considered a Nazi and innocent
victim of a brutal regime, what about Hanna? How are they any
different as secretary for Hitler and test pilot of the Reich?
Rob
p.s. Sorry if this is unduly long. I don't have to apologize for Hanna
Reitsch. there is nothing to apologize for.
Dudley Henriques
history IS written by the victors. I only know what people I trust
implicitly and know well have told me about her.
I found her personally charming and friendly and in a way, strangely
attractive. She seemed comfortable around us and spoke freely and with
some degree of feeling about herself. Most of what she said was personal
rather than political, so it would be hard to actually know where she
was coming from.
One thing I remember quite well about her "visit" with us was the way
her eyes lit up and the way she seemed to become "active" as the guys
gathered around her and the conversation shifted to the technical
aspects of flying.
I saw her as a tragic figure, extremely talented and skilled, caught up
in her time under circumstances over which she had little control.
I have never seriously faulted her, whatever her political leanings.
Hanna Reitsch was in my opinion something unique and special to her time.
Personally I prefer to remember her as she was the night we met her, a
tiny woman with a captivating smile, at home sitting around the
fireplace with other pilots. For that night anyway, there wasn't any
political angxt in the room.....just pilots talking shop.
--
Dudley Henriques
Bob Matthews
How could she "refuse to use it," if she'd gotten rid of it?
and persecutions as well as
> all postwar vilification of her character. She also refused to kill
> herself after Von Greim did- a broken vow. She loved Von Greim and yet
> there never was a physical relationship b/c she held a puritanical
> belief in marriage and her first love of flight.
A real "stick and rudder" girl?
Many believe she died
> a virgin.
Through the efforts of two Catholic priests, Hanna was able
> to reconcile her patriotism with her faith in God and ended up in some
> missionary capacity in the end.
Did they allow her to have unsupervised contact with children?
You are probably unaware that Hanna
> was brought up in a Catholic household and her Christian mother Emy
> Reitsch kept her in constant prayer during the war until her death in
> 1945 at the hands of her husband (who thought it best to kill his
> wife, their daughter Heidi, his 3 grandchildren, their maid, and then
> himself for the Fatherland and to prevent death at the hands of the
> Russians at any cost).
That THAT'S what I call de-Nazification! Sound like he created a whole
darned latrine for Dan.
HE took the easy way out, not Hanna. You do
> know that she was to be a flying missionary doctor to Africa in the
> beginning, right?
So, is this doctor a guy who treats flying missionaries? Or, a
missionary doctor who flies?
She studied to be a doctor but was granted
> permission to learn to fly by her father and then her destiny changed
> as she was a gifted, natural pilot. It must annoy the hell out of you
> that your God (if you're not a fucking atheist Jew) protected Hanna
> from age 4 (when she climbed the balcony to "fly" off a multi-story
> building) all the way through the war and her entire life. She should
> have died at least 7 times
At least!
in her life (once as a 4 yr old child on
> the balcony railing, once caught in a thunderstorm in a glider, once
> refused on a flight on the Me-321 which subsequently crashed and
> killed both pilots, once in the V-1 with a water warhead when the
> plughole froze
Aha! So she WAS a virgin!
until the last seconds before landing, 2 times in a/c
> accidents with the Me-321 and Me-163, and the fateful trip to Berlin
> under seige in 1945). God must have LOVED Hanna Reitsch very much :)
Must have been getting into the communion wine.
Cheers
==bob
>
> Rob
Keith Willshaw
"Dudley Henriques" <dhenr...@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:YridnVdEUMXkP47V...@rcn.net...
> Rob Arndt wrote:
>>>> You know that she denounced Goering
>>>> publicly and Himmler to his face in 1945?
>> Well yes but the reason was not their Nazi ideology but
>> what she saw as the betrayal of her beloved Fuhrer. She
>> flew to the headquarters of Himmler and other leaders to urge
>> them to continue fighting for the Nazi cause
>>
> Not true. She hated Goering the entire time and never sought him for
> permission to fly what she wanted. Emy Reitsch, Hanna's mother, had
> warned her about Himmler until he sent her cards, flowers, and gifts
> to the hospital after her accident in the Me-163. Both were surprised
> by the kind acts and reconsidered if the nice man was really evil or
> not. However, she DID confront Himmler with evidence of the Holocaust
> provided by a friend but was misled to believe it WAS Allied
Well thats her story anyway.
> propaganda to smear Germany and Hitler. When she lost Udet and other
> high-ranking Luftwaffe officials for the proposed suicide squads, she
> turned to Himmler for support to keep flying the Me-328 and R.IVs.
Oh so wanting to use suicide squads shows she was NOT a fanatic eh !
None of which alters the fact that she urged the military commanders
to keep fighting after escaping from Berlin. That fact is a matter of record
>>> Although she thought Hitler had been misled by other people who
>>> commited such heinous acts against the Jews, in 1945 she was shown
>>> the Holocaust photos of Dachau and condemned Hitler in the end of
>>> being a criminal.
>>> <irony mode on>
>>> Of course criminals always tell the truth when caught
>>> <irony mode off>
>>
> What crime did she commit during the entire war? She was a test-pilot.
And an ardent supporter of a regime that was criminal to the core.
>>> She went to great lengths to help de-Nazify the nation as was classifed
>>> herself as de-nazified in 1947.
>> That doesnt fit well with her own words during interrogation
>>
>> "It was the blackest day when we could not die at our Fuhrer's side."
>>
>> "We should all kneel down in reverence and prayer before the altar
>> of the Fatherland." When the interviewers asked what she meant by
>> "Altar of the Fatherland" she answered, "Why, the Fuhrer's bunker in
>> Berlin..."[
>>
> All of which was assumed free talk and not interrogation. But hte
> Americans were recording everything she said and made an offcial
> report.
Which makes them no less damming
>> Her words were then altered from the interrogation records. As
>> for the altar of the Fatherland, it was spoken postwar when Germany's
>> survival was at stake. Hanna wanted Germany and German aviation to
>> survive. that was uncertain in 1945- Year Zero.
Which hardly accords with your claim that she was de-nazified
>> Her words in an interview with a US journalist in the 70's are telling
>>
>> "Many Germans feel guilty about the war. But they don't explain the
>> real guilt we share - that we lost."
>
>> What does that tell? Truthfully? That the Germans are ashamed they
>> lost a second world war? that is an honest statement. Hanna certainly
>> wanted to win a war that she thought the Fuhrer was fighting against
>> communism which ironically wan not alright from the Allied POV until
>> the Cold War that ran from 1945- 1994!
She was also quite happy to have Germany lording it over Western Europe
>> She did not know of the
>> Holocaust's reality and certainty until post-VE Day.
That's her claim. Its not believable from somone who flew when
and where she wanted. She cerainly knew about the forced labour
camps. This is something that she chose not to talk about.
<snip>
>>
>> Eric Brown was Hanna's friend one minute pre-war, then wrote her off
>> as a propaganda tool when reports came in of her testing highly-secret
>> a/c, then contemplated kidnapping her for Britain before turning her
>> in to the Americans, they interrogated her when she WAS an emotion
>> wreck after the death of her parents and Von Greim, then friendly
>> again, critical, friendly...
>>
Wrong again. She was an aquaintance pre-war , afterwards he was horrified
by her Nazi fanaticism even after she had been arrested and interrogated
by the Americans. He never referred to as other than a great aviator
who was also a flawed human being.
>> I don't trust much about Brown nor anything he has to say about Hanna
>> Reitsch. All we have is his pre-war word.
Actually we have many accounts of her behaviour and fanaticism
>>She changed so drastically
>> during the war and afterwards that his views became political, even
>> though she was not.
>>
Ass backwards as usual, Brown wasnt publically known until
well after the war and he went on to help rebuild German aviation
in the 1950's. He was invited to the unveilng of the Me-163
in the German air museum along with Lippisch, Dr Walter and
the German test pilot Rudolf Opitz and the first commander
of an Me-163 squadron. Hanna Reitsch was not invited, her
continuing pro-Nazi sentiments made that impossible.
Keith
Dudley Henriques
You have me listed as a source on this post and I believe the dialog
belongs to someone else. I didn't say any of what's quoted here.
--
Dudley Henriques
Daryl Hunt
That doesn't bother Kieth. He's on a Troll here and a "I Hate Rob" kick.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Richard Brooks
> http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pif&GScid=2134472&GRid=14141351&FLgrid=14141351&PIgrid=14141351&PIcrid=2134472&ShowCemPhotos=Y&
>
> Rob
Does she still have a daughter-in-law residing in either Abingdon or
Didcot, just south of Oxford in England?
Keith Willshaw
>
> You have me listed as a source on this post and I believe the dialog
> belongs to someone else. I didn't say any of what's quoted here.
>
>
> --
> Dudley Henriques
Please accept my apologies, I didnt see the original post and edited the
response badly. I was of course responding to Rob Arndt and hope
my clumsiness causes you no embarassment.
Keith
Keith Willshaw
"Daryl Hunt" <dh...@nospami70west.com> wrote in message
news:999ab$48145f2d$13...@news.teranews.com...
>
>>
>> You have me listed as a source on this post and I believe the dialog
>> belongs to someone else. I didn't say any of what's quoted here.
>
> That doesn't bother Kieth. He's on a Troll here and a "I Hate Rob" kick.
>
I dont hate Rob, I simply disagree with him.
I have already apologised to Dudley.
Keith
Dudley Henriques
--
Dudley Henriques
George Z. Bush
You and Keith both earn high marks for civility from me. Now, to get back
to the original subject of this discussion, AFAIAC, having lost all of my
European relations in the ovens, her gravesite is only suitable as a
receptacle for the product of my nightly 0300 tinkle trips to the loo (or
john on my side of the pond). Once a Nazi, always a Nazi.
George Z.
Rob Arndt
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes, once a "Nazi" who went to Ghana in Africa postwar to help
Africans start flying schools and also to India. She met the leaders
of both nations and was called "Mother" in Ghana. A real Nazi,
right...
Ideologically, of course, this makes no sense at all.
Rob
Rob Arndt
> "Dudley Henriques" <dhenriq...@rcn.com> wrote in message
>
> news:YridnVdEUMXkP47V...@rcn.net...
>
> > Rob Arndt wrote:
> >>>> You know that she denounced Goering
> >>>> publicly and Himmler to his face in 1945?
> >> Well yes but the reason was not their Nazi ideology but
> >> what she saw as the betrayal of her beloved Fuhrer. She
> >> flew to the headquarters of Himmler and other leaders to urge
> >> them to continue fighting for the Nazi cause
>
> > Not true. She hated Goering the entire time and never sought him for
> > permission to fly what she wanted. Emy Reitsch, Hanna's mother, had
> > warned her about Himmler until he sent her cards, flowers, and gifts
> > to the hospital after her accident in the Me-163. Both were surprised
> > by the kind acts and reconsidered if the nice man was really evil or
> > not. However, she DID confront Himmler with evidence of the Holocaust
> > provided by a friend but was misled to believe it WAS Allied
>
> Well thats her story anyway.
Yes, it is. And with Goering it is backed up by her refusing to ever
go to him for permission to fly anything. As for the Holocaust
evidence, it is verified by the person who gave her the material to
show to Himmler- Peter Reidel who worked for the German Embassy in
Stockholm with photographic proof of Himmler's signed orders for the
Majdenek concentration camp atrocities committed in Russia.
>
> > propaganda to smear Germany and Hitler. When she lost Udet and other
> > high-ranking Luftwaffe officials for the proposed suicide squads, she
> > turned to Himmler for support to keep flying the Me-328 and R.IVs.
>
> Oh so wanting to use suicide squads shows she was NOT a fanatic eh !
To you that might seem insane, but with the Japanese kamikazes it was
not. The concept of self-sacrifice for a noble cause is quite
different than throwing your life away out of desperation. That is
what Hanna proposed but it was denied as ideologically repugnant to
the Nazi regime which advocated German superiority. So you call her a
Nazi fanatic and yet what she proposed was deemed un-Nazi and denied?
>
> None of which alters the fact that she urged the military commanders
> to keep fighting after escaping from Berlin. That fact is a matter of record
That was her orders- to support Von Greim as Commander of what was
left of the Luftwaffe and to deliver to Doenitz the plans to keep
waging war until the end. So what does the record show? She obeyed
orders?
>
> >>> Although she thought Hitler had been misled by other people who
> >>> commited such heinous acts against the Jews, in 1945 she was shown
> >>> the Holocaust photos of Dachau and condemned Hitler in the end of
> >>> being a criminal.
> >>> <irony mode on>
> >>> Of course criminals always tell the truth when caught
> >>> <irony mode off>
>
> > What crime did she commit during the entire war? She was a test-pilot.
>
> And an ardent supporter of a regime that was criminal to the core.
In that case, Keith, all of Germany is guilty as they elected Hitler
and supported him even up to the announcement of his death. What war
crime? None.
>
> >>> She went to great lengths to help de-Nazify the nation as was classifed
> >>> herself as de-nazified in 1947.
> >> That doesnt fit well with her own words during interrogation
>
> >> "It was the blackest day when we could not die at our Fuhrer's side."
>
> >> "We should all kneel down in reverence and prayer before the altar
> >> of the Fatherland." When the interviewers asked what she meant by
> >> "Altar of the Fatherland" she answered, "Why, the Fuhrer's bunker in
> >> Berlin..."[
>
> > All of which was assumed free talk and not interrogation. But hte
> > Americans were recording everything she said and made an offcial
> > report.
>
> Which makes them no less damming
Uh, the initial review of her was positive given her circumstances and
yet from these unknown and unsigned testimonies a report was later
made that was altered against her b/c she would not join the US team
and go to America.
>
> >> Her words were then altered from the interrogation records. As
> >> for the altar of the Fatherland, it was spoken postwar when Germany's
> >> survival was at stake. Hanna wanted Germany and German aviation to
> >> survive. that was uncertain in 1945- Year Zero.
>
> Which hardly accords with your claim that she was de-nazified
Wanting your nation to survive and also German aviation makes her a
Nazi in the postwar world? WTF??? BTW, she was considered by the
Allies to be completely de-Nazified by Dec 1947- that is official and
certified. She had obtained her de-Nazification certificate.
>
> >> Her words in an interview with a US journalist in the 70's are telling
>
> >> "Many Germans feel guilty about the war. But they don't explain the
> >> real guilt we share - that we lost."
>
> >> What does that tell? Truthfully? That the Germans are ashamed they
> >> lost a second world war? that is an honest statement. Hanna certainly
> >> wanted to win a war that she thought the Fuhrer was fighting against
> >> communism which ironically wan not alright from the Allied POV until
> >> the Cold War that ran from 1945- 1994!
>
> She was also quite happy to have Germany lording it over Western Europe
She was just happy to fly during the war whether it was for the dive
brakes on the Stuka, perfecting the DFS-230 and Me-321 gliders,
testing the Komet and early jet aircraft, performing research on air-
to-air refeuling with an experimental DFS glider tanker, landing on a
ship deck with a glider (rope method),and being able to take-over for
Von Greim when he was hit in the Storch. She was quite busy either
performing her duties or in the hospital recovering from accidents
that were never her fault. She was not a Nazi Party member and held no
known political views. Flying was her life. I have read no accounts of
her saying anything bad about the West except for the same general
misunderstanding of why the West wanted to attack Germany for fighting
communism. Amazingly, postwar, fighting communism became the West's
biggest problem for decades.
>
> >> She did not know of the
> >> Holocaust's reality and certainty until post-VE Day.
>
> That's her claim. Its not believable from somone who flew when
> and where she wanted. She cerainly knew about the forced labour
> camps. This is something that she chose not to talk about.
Yeah, working for DFS, Lippisch, and employed at Rechlin really gave
her great insight into something she knew nothing about. Traudl Junge,
Hitler's secretary from 1942-45, who was in the bunker didn't even
know about the Holocaust!
>
> <snip>
>
>
>
> >> Eric Brown was Hanna's friend one minute pre-war, then wrote her off
> >> as a propaganda tool when reports came in of her testing highly-secret
> >> a/c, then contemplated kidnapping her for Britain before turning her
> >> in to the Americans, they interrogated her when she WAS an emotion
> >> wreck after the death of her parents and Von Greim, then friendly
> >> again, critical, friendly...
>
> Wrong again. She was an aquaintance pre-war , afterwards he was horrified
> by her Nazi fanaticism even after she had been arrested and interrogated
> by the Americans. He never referred to as other than a great aviator
> who was also a flawed human being.
Eric Brown was the one that located her postwar and tipped off the
Americans in exchange for interrogation rights. He did not try to make
contact with her at all. He saw her in a July 1945 jail interrogation-
some "friend". He wrote that several times during the war that she was
merely a propaganda tool for the Nazis. I guess he didn't consider her
to be on par with him as a test pilot. Again, some friend. But it
didn't matter- at least during the war she outdid him with her work
and was still a pioneer of a/c the Allies had no real equivalent to.
>
> >> I don't trust much about Brown nor anything he has to say about Hanna
> >> Reitsch. All we have is his pre-war word.
>
> Actually we have many accounts of her behaviour and fanaticism
That is your interpretation and the Allies. You nor them lived in Nazi
Germany during the war. She did her duty with honor and courage.
>
> >>She changed so drastically
> >> during the war and afterwards that his views became political, even
> >> though she was not.
>
> Ass backwards as usual, Brown wasnt publically known until
> well after the war and he went on to help rebuild German aviation
> in the 1950's. He was invited to the unveilng of the Me-163
> in the German air museum along with Lippisch, Dr Walter and
> the German test pilot Rudolf Opitz and the first commander
> of an Me-163 squadron. Hanna Reitsch was not invited, her
> continuing pro-Nazi sentiments made that impossible.
The German Govt. had a problem and still does with anything connected
to the Third Reich. Are you really that ignorant???
>
> Keith
Seems to me, Keith, for someone supposedly well-read that you have
never read anything about Hanna Reitsch unless it has come from the
Allied Vilification Dept or Rumor Mill. YOUR nation couldn't even
spell her name right- Anna Reitsch!!! And, honestly, who gives a fuck
what Eric Brown thinks? Hanna was known all over the world postwar and
surely was admired and respected by the vast majority of people. That
she snubbed the US and Britain postwar proved that money bribes and
Wvilification could not break her as a German- not a Nazi.
Rob
Keith Willshaw
On Apr 27, 3:30?am, "Keith Willshaw" <keithnos...@demon.co.uk> wrote:
> "Dudley Henriques" <dhenriq...@rcn.com> wrote in message
>
> Well thats her story anyway.
> Yes, it is. And with Goering it is backed up by her refusing to ever
> go to him for permission to fly anything.
Using Hermann Goering as a character witness is an interesting choice.
> As for the Holocaust
> evidence, it is verified by the person who gave her the material to
> show to Himmler- Peter Reidel who worked for the German Embassy in
> Stockholm with photographic proof of Himmler's signed orders for the
> Majdenek concentration camp atrocities committed in Russia.
I dont doubt she saw the evidence, the question is why did she
do nothing about it. Going to Himmler is akin to asking a serial
killer if he's guilty and uncritically accpeting 'No' as an answer.
>
>>> propaganda to smear Germany and Hitler. When she lost Udet and other
>>> high-ranking Luftwaffe officials for the proposed suicide squads, she
>>> turned to Himmler for support to keep flying the Me-328 and R.IVs.
>
>> Oh so wanting to use suicide squads shows she was NOT a fanatic eh !
> To you that might seem insane, but with the Japanese kamikazes it was
> not. The concept of self-sacrifice for a noble cause is quite
> different than throwing your life away out of desperation.
That rather depends on the cause, spreading Nazi rule to Europe
was not exactly a noble one.
> That is
> what Hanna proposed but it was denied as ideologically repugnant to
> the Nazi regime which advocated German superiority. So you call her a
> Nazi fanatic and yet what she proposed was deemed un-Nazi and denied?
>
>> None of which alters the fact that she urged the military commanders
>> to keep fighting after escaping from Berlin. That fact is a matter of
>> record
>That was her orders- to support Von Greim as Commander of what was
l> eft of the Luftwaffe and to deliver to Doenitz the plans to keep
> waging war until the end. So what does the record show? She obeyed
> orders?
Well hardly, Doenitz was now Fuhrer, it was his orders she should
have been obeying.
>
>>> What crime did she commit during the entire war? She was a test-pilot.
>
>> And an ardent supporter of a regime that was criminal to the core.
> In that case, Keith, all of Germany is guilty as they elected Hitler
> and supported him even up to the announcement of his death. What war
> crime? None.
>
Which is why she was not imprisoned, morally however she remained
fanatical even after the announcement of his death.
<snip>
> Uh, the initial review of her was positive given her circumstances and
> yet from these unknown and unsigned testimonies a report was later
> made that was altered against her b/c she would not join the US team
> and go to America.
>
Not according to those who were there.
> >> Her words were then altered from the interrogation records. As
> >> for the altar of the Fatherland, it was spoken postwar when Germany's
> >> survival was at stake. Hanna wanted Germany and German aviation to
> >> survive. that was uncertain in 1945- Year Zero.
>
>> Which hardly accords with your claim that she was de-nazified
> Wanting your nation to survive
Urging that the war be continued in 1945 and that Hitler's scorched
earth policy be implemented was hardly likely to increase the odds
of Germany surviving
> and also German aviation makes her a
> Nazi in the postwar world? WTF??? BTW, she was considered by the
> Allies to be completely de-Nazified by Dec 1947- that is official and
> certified. She had obtained her de-Nazification certificate.
Which simply showed she was no longer considered a security risk,
not that she had been transformed into Saint Hannah the first
>
> >> Her words in an interview with a US journalist in the 70's are telling
>
> >> "Many Germans feel guilty about the war. But they don't explain the
> >> real guilt we share - that we lost."
>
> >> What does that tell? Truthfully? That the Germans are ashamed they
> >> lost a second world war? that is an honest statement. Hanna certainly
> >> wanted to win a war that she thought the Fuhrer was fighting against
> >> communism which ironically wan not alright from the Allied POV until
> >> the Cold War that ran from 1945- 1994!
>
> She was also quite happy to have Germany lording it over Western Europe
> She was just happy to fly during the war whether it was for the dive
> brakes on the Stuka, perfecting the DFS-230 and Me-321 gliders,
> testing the Komet and early jet aircraft, performing research on air-
> to-air refeuling with an experimental DFS glider tanker, landing on a
> ship deck with a glider (rope method),and being able to take-over for
> Von Greim when he was hit in the Storch.
A flight which she begged to be allowed to make to allow her
to hero worship the man who had dragged Germant to the edge
of destruction.
> She was quite busy either
> performing her duties or in the hospital recovering from accidents
> that were never her fault. She was not a Nazi Party member and held no
> known political views. Flying was her life. I have read no accounts of
> her saying anything bad about the West except for the same general
> misunderstanding of why the West wanted to attack Germany for fighting
> communism. Amazingly, postwar, fighting communism became the West's
> biggest problem for decades.
The west did NOT repeat NOT wish to attack Germany for
fighting communism. Britain and France declared war on Germany
because it attacked Poland having already seized Czechoslovakia
and Austria. At the time Germany had signed a non aggression
pact with the USSR and the Soviets were happily supplying
Germany with raw materials in return for German technical aid
and looted gold.
>
> >> She did not know of the
> >> Holocaust's reality and certainty until post-VE Day.
>
>> That's her claim. Its not believable from somone who flew when
>> and where she wanted. She cerainly knew about the forced labour
>> camps. This is something that she chose not to talk about.
> Yeah, working for DFS, Lippisch, and employed at Rechlin really gave
> her great insight into something she knew nothing about. Traudl Junge,
> Hitler's secretary from 1942-45, who was in the bunker didn't even
> know about the Holocaust!
>
But to her credit admitted that the reason was because she didnt
want to know. All the clues were there but she didnt put them
together. Reitsch had for more sources of information and
when given evidence of the camps took it straight to the
cheif criminal.
> <snip>
>
>
>
> >> Eric Brown was Hanna's friend one minute pre-war, then wrote her off
> >> as a propaganda tool when reports came in of her testing highly-secret
> >> a/c, then contemplated kidnapping her for Britain before turning her
> >> in to the Americans, they interrogated her when she WAS an emotion
> >> wreck after the death of her parents and Von Greim, then friendly
> >> again, critical, friendly...
>
>> Wrong again. She was an aquaintance pre-war , afterwards he was horrified
>> by her Nazi fanaticism even after she had been arrested and interrogated
>> by the Americans. He never referred to as other than a great aviator
>> who was also a flawed human being.
> Eric Brown was the one that located her postwar and tipped off the
> Americans in exchange for interrogation rights.
Incorrect. He heard the same rumor they did but chose to visit the
location where one of the key workers with the Horten brothers.
After returning to base he was informed the woman in hospital
really was Hanna Reitsch
> He did not try to make contact with her at all. He saw her in a July
> 1945 jail interrogation. No he visted her in jail some "friend".
He wasnt her friend, he had met her briefly pre-war
> He wrote that several times during the war that she was
> merely a propaganda tool for the Nazis.
She clearly was a propaganda tool, she appeared at many events
staged for propaganda causes
> I guess he didn't consider her to be on par with him as a test pilot.
Very few people are in truth, he does after all hold two records.
One for the most number of types flown and the other for
the highest number of carrier deck landings
> Again, some friend. But it
> didn't matter- at least during the war she outdid him with her work
> and was still a pioneer of a/c the Allies had no real equivalent to.
>
In your opinion
> >> I don't trust much about Brown nor anything he has to say about Hanna
> >> Reitsch. All we have is his pre-war word.
>
>> Actually we have many accounts of her behaviour and fanaticism
> That is your interpretation and the Allies. You nor them lived in Nazi
>Germany during the war. She did her duty with honor and courage.
>
and with great enthusiasm
> >>She changed so drastically
> >> during the war and afterwards that his views became political, even
> >> though she was not.
>
>> Ass backwards as usual, Brown wasnt publically known until
>> well after the war and he went on to help rebuild German aviation
>> in the 1950's. He was invited to the unveilng of the Me-163
>> in the German air museum along with Lippisch, Dr Walter and
>> the German test pilot Rudolf Opitz and the first commander
>> of an Me-163 squadron. Hanna Reitsch was not invited, her
>> continuing pro-Nazi sentiments made that impossible.
> The German Govt. had a problem and still does with anything connected
>to the Third Reich.
And yet Dr Lippisch, Dr`Walter and Rudolf Opitz were all invited
>>Are you really that ignorant???
> Seems to me, Keith, for someone supposedly well-read that you have
> never read anything about Hanna Reitsch unless it has come from the
> Allied Vilification Dept or Rumor Mill.
Wrong again
> YOUR nation couldn't even
> spell her name right- Anna Reitsch!!!
Ah a spelling flame - how novel
> And, honestly, who gives a fuck
> what Eric Brown thinks? Hanna was known all over the world postwar and
> surely was admired and respected by the vast majority of people. That
> she snubbed the US and Britain postwar proved that money bribes and
> Wvilification could not break her as a German- not a Nazi.
You clearly care as your response shows.
Keith
Rob Arndt
> "Rob Arndt" <teuton...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:f41eee43-7643-43c0...@q24g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 27, 3:30?am, "Keith Willshaw" <keithnos...@demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > "Dudley Henriques" <dhenriq...@rcn.com> wrote in message
>
> > Well thats her story anyway.
> > Yes, it is. And with Goering it is backed up by her refusing to ever
> > go to him for permission to fly anything.
>
> �Using Hermann Goering as a character witness is an interesting choice.
Hanna states many times in her book and biographies that she could not
stand Goering and therfore never went to him for halp with any flying
difficulties or suggestions. The fact that she never did supports my
statement. Goering's character has nothing to do in this context. You
know that and again prove your willingness to make sure Hanna is
identified with criminal Nazis. Sorry, no connection here.
>
> > As for the Holocaust
> > evidence, it is verified by the person who gave her the material to
> > show to Himmler- Peter Reidel who worked for the German Embassy in
> > Stockholm with photographic proof of Himmler's signed orders for the
> > Majdenek concentration camp atrocities committed in Russia.
>
> I dont doubt �she saw the evidence, the question is why did she
> do nothing about it. Going to Himmler is akin to asking a serial
> killer if he's guilty and uncritically accpeting 'No' as an answer.
As a German who experienced the best of the pre-war Reich and trusted
Hitler loyally, why would she automatically assume the atrocities were
absolutely true? Even if she did, they do not show the entire scale of
a Holocaust- just one incident in Russia. She had stood up for the
Jews during Kristalnacht and was questioned about it. That took real
courage to stand up for Jews in a Nazi regime. That incident is a
matter of historical fact. So she again when proof shows up gets angry
and goes to the source. But she also would have had doubts due to
Allied propaganda from WW1- your British certainly portrayed the
Germans as beasts and Huns. It is understandable that she took
reassurance that it was a lie. What was Himmler going to say- YES,
it's true and more??? She may have been naive but she took great risk
to confront Himmler like that- he ruled Germany through the SS and
Gestapo. Her life would be in danger. You must be a total idiot to
presume that a mere test pilot celebrity could just walk in and force
Himmler to confess. the Nuremburg trials even failed that as he
cheated the hangman.
>
>
>
> >>> propaganda to smear Germany and Hitler. When she lost Udet and other
> >>> high-ranking Luftwaffe officials for the proposed suicide squads, she
> >>> turned to Himmler for support to keep flying the Me-328 and R.IVs.
>
> >> Oh so wanting to use suicide squads shows she was NOT a fanatic eh !
> > To you that might seem insane, but with the Japanese kamikazes it was
> > not. The concept of self-sacrifice for a noble cause is quite
> > different than throwing your life away out of desperation.
>
> That rather depends on the cause, spreading Nazi rule to Europe
> was not exactly a noble one.
Again, you're using the Allied POV and not her German one which would
be defense of the Fatherland in the extreme. She thought it valiant
that volunteers would sacrifice their life to save Germany. She was
the first to volunteer BTW.
>
> > That is
> > what Hanna proposed but it was denied as ideologically repugnant to
> > the Nazi regime which advocated German superiority. So you call her a
> > Nazi fanatic and yet what she proposed was deemed un-Nazi and denied?
>
> >> None of which alters the fact that she urged the military commanders
> >> to keep fighting after escaping from Berlin. That fact is a matter of
> >> record
> >That was her orders- to support Von Greim as Commander of what was
>
> l> eft of the Luftwaffe and to deliver to Doenitz the plans to keep
>
> > waging war until the end. So what does the record show? She obeyed
> > orders?
>
> Well hardly, Doenitz was now Fuhrer, it was his orders she should
> have been obeying.
Hanna and Von Greim carried Hitler's orders TO Doenitz at Ploen,
moron.
>
>
>
> >>> What crime did she commit during the entire war? She was a test-pilot.
>
> >> And an ardent supporter of a regime that was criminal to the core.
> > In that case, Keith, all of Germany is guilty as they elected Hitler
> > and supported him even up to the announcement of his death. What war
> > crime? None.
>
> Which is why she was not imprisoned, morally however she remained
> fanatical even after the announcement of his death.
That is your opinion. She lost her family, Von Greim, her leader, and
saw the Fatherland come to ruin. Considering all she had been through
it took tremendous inner strength and courage for her to move on in
life under occupation. Nothing was certain about Germany's fate at the
time. Thank God you have the victor's song storybook history and the
luxury of hindsight!
>
> <snip>
>
> > Uh, the initial review of her was positive given her circumstances and
> > yet from these unknown and unsigned testimonies a report was later
> > made that was altered against her b/c she would not join the US team
> > and go to America.
>
> Not according to those who were there.
Unbiased cite please. Your fucked-up Hugh Trevor-Roper's book on Hanna
was based on THAT lone US intel report not signed by her and contained
104 clear errors. THOSE are the facts. She refuted them and publically
stood her ground.
>
> > >> Her words were then altered from the interrogation records. As
> > >> for the altar of the Fatherland, it was spoken postwar when Germany's
> > >> survival was at stake. Hanna wanted Germany and German aviation to
> > >> survive. that was uncertain in 1945- Year Zero.
>
> >> Which hardly accords with your claim that she was de-nazified
> > Wanting your nation to survive
>
> Urging that the war be continued in 1945 and that Hitler's scorched
> earth policy be implemented was hardly likely to increase the odds
> of Germany surviving
Was Hanna in control? Was she Fuhrerin? No, she had to obey Doenitz
and Von Greim. Germany had surrendered within days anyway and she was
arrested. What could she have done as a test pilot to save the
Reich???
>
> > and also German aviation makes her a
> > Nazi in the postwar world? WTF??? BTW, she was considered by the
> > Allies to be completely de-Nazified by Dec 1947- that is official and
> > certified. She had obtained her de-Nazification certificate.
>
> Which simply showed she was no longer considered a security risk,
> not that she had been transformed into Saint Hannah the first
No one is claiming sainthood. Hanna was certified as de-Nazified by
you, the victors. It is your certification issued by your people.
Amazing that she had to be de-Nazified as she never was a member of
the Nazi Party and denounced Hitler, Goering, Goebbels, Himmler,
etc... So she was loyal to the Fatherland and stood up for her
beliefs. So did many other Germans. Does not make them Nazis for
loving their nation and trying to preserve it. It was assumed that the
Nazi leadership in one form or another would survive at least in the
West to regain control after surrender. that did not happen and was
shocking to most Germans. Hanna is no different from millions in this
respect. If so, prove it. You can't.
>
>
>
> > >> Her words in an interview with a US journalist in the 70's are telling
>
> > >> "Many Germans feel guilty about the war. But they don't explain the
> > >> real guilt we share - that we lost."
>
> > >> What does that tell? Truthfully? That the Germans are ashamed they
> > >> lost a second world war? that is an honest statement. Hanna certainly
> > >> wanted to win a war that she thought the Fuhrer was fighting against
> > >> communism which ironically wan not alright from the Allied POV until
> > >> the Cold War that ran from 1945- 1994!
>
> > She was also quite happy to have Germany lording it over Western Europe
> > She was just happy to fly during the war whether it was for the dive
> > brakes on the Stuka, perfecting the DFS-230 and Me-321 gliders,
> > testing the Komet and early jet aircraft, performing research on air-
> > to-air refeuling with an experimental DFS glider tanker, landing on a
> > ship deck with a glider (rope method),and being able to take-over for
> > Von Greim when he was hit in the Storch.
>
> A flight which she begged to be allowed to make to allow her
> to hero worship the man who had dragged Germant to the edge
> of destruction.
Another idiotic statement. She was to be the helicopter pilot out of
Gatow, but the helo was destroyed the night before at Rechlin. Hanna
chose to stay with Von Greim just in case and proceed with THEIR
orders. Had she not been in the Storch, Von Greim would have crashed.
Hanna was an invaluable asset in saving them and completing their
mission.
>
> > She was quite busy either
> > performing her duties or in the hospital recovering from accidents
> > that were never her fault. She was not a Nazi Party member and held no
> > known political views. Flying was her life. I have read no accounts of
> > her saying anything bad about the West except for the same general
> > misunderstanding of why the West wanted to attack Germany for fighting
> > communism. Amazingly, postwar, fighting communism became the West's
> > biggest problem for decades.
>
> The west did NOT repeat NOT wish to attack Germany for
> fighting communism. Britain and France declared �war on Germany
> because it attacked Poland having already seized Czechoslovakia
> and Austria. At the time Germany had signed a non aggression
> pact with the USSR and the Soviets were happily supplying
> Germany with raw materials in return for German technical aid
> and looted gold.
Britain was so eager for peace at all cost that it stood by with the
Anschluss and dismemberment of Czechoslovakia by agreement- "Peace in
our time"- Chamberlain. Hitler and the German people by majority
wanted ALL Germans to be united. Poland refused to negotiate on the
Danzig corridor to E Prussia and the Germans THERE all wanted to be
joined with Germany. As a result Germany took it by force and allowed
Russia the other portion of the nation. It was Britain and France that
immediately declared war on Germany.
>
>
>
> > >> She did not know of the
> > >> Holocaust's reality and certainty until post-VE Day.
>
> >> That's her claim. Its not believable from somone who flew when
> >> and where she wanted. She cerainly knew about the forced labour
> >> camps. This is something that she chose not to talk about.
> > Yeah, working for DFS, Lippisch, and employed at Rechlin really gave
> > her great insight into something she knew nothing about. Traudl Junge,
> > Hitler's secretary from 1942-45, who was in the bunker didn't even
> > know about the Holocaust!
Cite please that PROVES she knew about the totality of the Holocaust
or even slave labor. you don't have one. It was the Americans that
first showed her the photos of Dachau postwar. Fact. She was appalled
and could not believe that such things could happen in her Fatherland.
Again, her loyalty was to Germany and NOT Hitler, no matter if she was
under the bunker fantasy world death cult spell for 3 days...
>
> But to her credit admitted that the reason was because she didnt
> want to know. All the clues were there but she didnt put them
> together. Reitsch had for more sources of information and
> when given evidence of the camps took it straight to the
> cheif criminal.
So what? Already addressed several times.
>
> > <snip>
>
> > >> Eric Brown was Hanna's friend one minute pre-war, then wrote her off
> > >> as a propaganda tool when reports came in of her testing highly-secret
> > >> a/c, then contemplated kidnapping her for Britain before turning her
> > >> in to the Americans, they interrogated her when she WAS an emotion
> > >> wreck after the death of her parents and Von Greim, then friendly
> > >> again, critical, friendly...
>
> >> Wrong again. She was an aquaintance pre-war , afterwards he was horrified
> >> by her Nazi fanaticism even after she had been arrested and interrogated
> >> by the Americans. He never referred to as other than a great aviator
> >> who was also a flawed human being.
> > Eric Brown was the one that located her postwar and tipped off the
> > Americans in exchange for interrogation rights.
They were more than just flying aquaintences. Pre-war Hanna, Udet, and
Brown all dined together and discussed aviation. A friendship was
formed.
>
> Incorrect. He heard the same rumor they did but chose to visit the
> location where one of the key workers with the Horten brothers.
> After returning to base he was informed the woman in hospital
> really was Hanna Reitsch
Eric Brown was tasked with a long list provided by Britain to seek out
certain individuals for Britain's technological benefit. Hanna was on
that list and he tracked her down. Rather than visiting her as a
friend, he contemplated kidnapping her instead... but knew the
Americans would be angry. He reported her location to them knowing
that eventually the CIC would get to her. The war was over, so I would
call that a betrayal of friendship.
>
> > He did not try to make contact with her at all. He saw her in a July
> > 1945 jail interrogation. No he visted her in jail some "friend".
>
> He wasnt her friend, he had met her briefly pre-war
Bullshit.
>
> > He wrote that several times during the war that she was
> > merely a propaganda tool for the Nazis.
>
> She clearly was a propaganda tool, she appeared at many events
> staged for propaganda causes
Cite one DURING the war other than receiving awards that dealt with
secret a/c Brown was investigating. Where and when did she appear and
give lectures on the secret weapons she was testing like the V-1 and
Me-163 or even the suicide squad proposal?
>
> > I guess he didn't consider her to be on par with him as a test pilot.
>
> Very few people are in truth, he does after all hold two records.
> One for the most number of types flown and the other for
> the highest number of carrier deck landings
BFD, she held 40 records at her death and pioneered several types of
flight. The carrier record is a moot point as Germany had none (Graf
Zeppelin was used as a floating warehouse until loaded up with loot
for the Soviets and towed back to the USSR). Hanna DID manage to land
a glider 4 times on the deck of a ship with a rope-rigging device
during the early war years. Did Brown do that? I don't think so. She
did it in a unpowered DFS-230.
>
> > Again, some friend. But it
> > didn't matter- at least during the war she outdid him with her work
> > and was still a pioneer of a/c the Allies had no real equivalent to.
>
> In your opinion
Not just mine, an entire world full of people think that too.
>
> > >> I don't trust much about Brown nor anything he has to say about Hanna
> > >> Reitsch. All we have is his pre-war word.
>
> >> Actually we have many accounts of her behaviour and fanaticism
> > That is your interpretation and the Allies. You nor them lived in Nazi
> >Germany during the war. She did her duty with honor and courage.
>
> and with great enthusiasm
>
> > >>She changed so drastically
> > >> during the war and afterwards that his views became political, even
> > >> though she was not.
>
> >> Ass backwards as usual, Brown wasnt publically known until
> >> well after the war and he went on to help rebuild German aviation
> >> in the 1950's. He was invited to the unveilng of the Me-163
> >> in the German air museum along with Lippisch, Dr Walter and
> >> the German test pilot Rudolf Opitz and the first commander
> >> of an Me-163 squadron. Hanna Reitsch was not invited, her
> >> continuing pro-Nazi sentiments made that impossible.
> > The German Govt. had a problem and still does with anything connected
> >to the Third Reich.
>
> And yet Dr Lippisch, Dr`Walter and Rudolf Opitz were all invited
All were sell-outs, but not Hanna :)
>
> >>Are you really that ignorant???
> > Seems to me, Keith, for someone supposedly well-read that you have
> > never read anything about Hanna Reitsch unless it has come from the
> > Allied Vilification Dept or Rumor Mill.
>
> Wrong again
>
> > YOUR nation couldn't even
> > spell her name right- Anna Reitsch!!!
>
> Ah a spelling flame - how novel
No, how moronic that your intel people could not even get her name
right until mid-war.
>
> > And, honestly, who gives a fuck
> > what Eric Brown thinks? Hanna was known all over the world postwar and
> > surely was admired and respected by the vast majority of people. That
> > she snubbed the US and Britain postwar proved that money bribes and
> > Wvilification could not break her as a German- not a Nazi.
>
> You clearly care as your response shows.
I care about Hanna, greatest test pilot of the 20th century.
http://www.martinfoley.co.uk/images/Hanna_Reitsch_with_two_glider_pilots.jpg
>
> Keith
Rob
Dan
Keith, aren't is in love and won't brook any negatives about Hannah.
Her arguments are as follow:
1: Hannah was German, therefore automatically superior to any
non-German. Hannah was a Nazi which makes her best of the best.
2: Nothing Hannah herself didn't say is automatically false.
3: Anything Hannah said to her interrogators is either misinterpreted
or said under duress.
4: Aren't says it's true so it must be.
5: Any claim made on behalf of the U.S. or U.K. is "flag waving."
6: Any claim made on behalf of the U.S. or U.K. shows hatred of Germany.
7: No one who hasn't lived under the Nazi regime can't possibly
understand Hannah's loyalty. This is the truly odd argument since aren't
has neither been to Germany nor lived under the Nazi regime.
8: Aren't will proceed to personal and vulgar attacks if you dare to
disagree with her. Apparently simple disagreeing with her is an attack
in and of itself.
Daryl Hunt
"Dan" <B2...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:JG7Rj.67963$yk5....@newsfe18.lga...
> Keith Willshaw wrote:
>
>
> Keith, aren't is in love and won't brook any negatives about Hannah. Her
> arguments are as follow:
>
> 1: Hannah was German, therefore automatically superior to any
> non-German. Hannah was a Nazi which makes her best of the best.
And since it's Rob, Hannah obvously ran all the Death Camps, shot every POW
in the back of the head and buried orphans alive. Sheesh.
>
> 2: Nothing Hannah herself didn't say is automatically false.
Nothing Hannah herself did say is automatically false, right?
>
> 3: Anything Hannah said to her interrogators is either misinterpreted or
> said under duress.
>
And she lied about her breakfast as well, right?
> 4: Aren't says it's true so it must be.
You and the troll Keith both say it's wrong therefore it must be. See the
reasoning pathway here, Dan?
>
> 5: Any claim made on behalf of the U.S. or U.K. is "flag waving."
And any claims (no matter if it's backed by history or not) about any good
coming out of Nazi Germany must be treason at best.
>
> 6: Any claim made on behalf of the U.S. or U.K. shows hatred of Germany.
Any claim made on behalf of Germany shows a hatred for the US or UK. Shoot,
let's throw in Canada while we are at it. the Aussies could give a shit.
>
> 7: No one who hasn't lived under the Nazi regime can't possibly
> understand Hannah's loyalty. This is the truly odd argument since aren't
> has neither been to Germany nor lived under the Nazi regime.
Actually, one does not have to have lived under the Nazi regime to
understand her loyalty. You should understand it as well. I don't suggest
keith should.
>
> 8: Aren't will proceed to personal and vulgar attacks if you dare to
> disagree with her. Apparently simple disagreeing with her is an attack in
> and of itself.
Rob has been quite civil up to this piont. It's you that have shown that
you need not apply for the 404thk00ks. You made the grade, troll.
Dan
>
> "Dan" <B2...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:JG7Rj.67963$yk5....@newsfe18.lga...
>> Keith Willshaw wrote:
>>
>>
>> Keith, aren't is in love and won't brook any negatives about Hannah.
>> Her arguments are as follow:
>>
>> 1: Hannah was German, therefore automatically superior to any
>> non-German. Hannah was a Nazi which makes her best of the best.
>
> And since it's Rob, Hannah obvously ran all the Death Camps, shot every
> POW in the back of the head and buried orphans alive. Sheesh.
I never said that and I know it's not true. Have you never noticed
aren't has a decade long history of telling us all great things come
from Germany, especially the Nazi period? Did you miss the part where
she said the world wars were justified to advance German technology?
>
>>
>> 2: Nothing Hannah herself didn't say is automatically false.
>
> Nothing Hannah herself did say is automatically false, right?
Look, aren't is basing all her claims on Hannah's autobiography
and statements she gave to biographers. I never said Hannah wasn't a
capable pilot, I just don't follow the pagan idolatry aren't displays.
Hannah's autobiography is no less self serving than Speer's, there are
verifiable facts in it, but anything said must be assumed to diminish
her negatives. All autobiographies are thus.
>
>
>>
>> 3: Anything Hannah said to her interrogators is either
>> misinterpreted or said under duress.
>>
>
> And she lied about her breakfast as well, right?
>
>
>> 4: Aren't says it's true so it must be.
>
> You and the troll Keith both say it's wrong therefore it must be. See
> the reasoning pathway here, Dan?
It has nothing to do with whether I agree with Keith, you or
anyone else. Aren't speaks in absolutes like "Hannah was the greatest
test pilot of the 20th century" and we are supposed to accept it at face
value?
>
>
>>
>> 5: Any claim made on behalf of the U.S. or U.K. is "flag waving."
>
> And any claims (no matter if it's backed by history or not) about any
> good coming out of Nazi Germany must be treason at best.
If it isn't backed by history it didn't, by definition, happen.
Nothing good the Nazis may have done outweighs their evil.
>
>
>>
>> 6: Any claim made on behalf of the U.S. or U.K. shows hatred of
>> Germany.
>
> Any claim made on behalf of Germany shows a hatred for the US or UK.
> Shoot, let's throw in Canada while we are at it. the Aussies could give
> a shit.
>
Aren't has a history of telling people who don't agree Germany uber
alles hate Germany. Did you miss aren't telling us Allied air crews were
cowards, that Germany was deliberately "raped" by the Allies for
technology, but Germany was right in collecting technology, food and raw
materials from the countries they conquered? Aren't even told us the
entire Normandy invasion was staged so the Western Allies could "rape"
Germany first. Aren't uses the term rape when something is seized from
Germany but never the other way around.
>
>>
>> 7: No one who hasn't lived under the Nazi regime can't possibly
>> understand Hannah's loyalty. This is the truly odd argument since
>> aren't has neither been to Germany nor lived under the Nazi regime.
>
>
> Actually, one does not have to have lived under the Nazi regime to
> understand her loyalty. You should understand it as well. I don't
> suggest keith should.
I do understand loyalty to the regime, but her idolizing Hitler goes
beyond that. To the day she died she loved that bastard and wished she
had died with him.
>
>>
>> 8: Aren't will proceed to personal and vulgar attacks if you dare to
>> disagree with her. Apparently simple disagreeing with her is an attack
>> in and of itself.
>
> Rob has been quite civil up to this piont. It's you that have shown
> that you need not apply for the 404thk00ks. You made the grade, troll.
>
Has she? Look back in this thread. Among other things she says I am
Jewish atheist." Nothing I said in 1 - 8 above is uncivil and is based
on observations made by me and many others.
Let's look at civility, shall we? You are constantly on Tankfixer and
Keith as being trolls.
tankfixer
>
> Let's look at civility, shall we? You are constantly on Tankfixer and
> Keith as being trolls.
Daryl calls anyone who won't agree with his silly statements that Dan...
--
"Oh Norman, listen! The loons are calling!"
- Katherine Hepburn, "On Golden Pond"
Keith Willshaw
"tankfixer" <paul.c...@gmail.comm> wrote in message
news:MPG.227eddb77...@nntp.earthlink.net...
> In article <Tr8Rj.14516$3N1....@newsfe17.lga>, B2...@aol.com says...
>>
>> Let's look at civility, shall we? You are constantly on Tankfixer and
>> Keith as being trolls.
>
> Daryl calls anyone who won't agree with his silly statements that Dan...
>
And fails to respond with any arguments based on facts.
Keith
Rob Arndt
> "tankfixer" <paul.carr...@gmail.comm> wrote in message
>
> news:MPG.227eddb77...@nntp.earthlink.net...
>
> > In article <Tr8Rj.14516$3N1.12...@newsfe17.lga>, B2...@aol.com says...
>
> >> � �Let's look at civility, shall we? You are constantly on Tankfixer and
> >> Keith as being trolls.
>
> > Daryl calls anyone who won't agree with his silly statements that Dan...
>
> And fails to respond with any arguments based on facts.
>
> Keith
Perhaps he should just emulate you, Keith and stick to "official"
Allied histories and <snip> all the rest you cannot answer.
Rob
Stupot
> To you that might seem insane, but with the Japanese kamikazes it was
> not. The concept of self-sacrifice for a noble cause is quite
> different than throwing your life away out of desperation.
You speak of self-sacrifice as a noble cause - it certainly is. But at
least twice, and I couldn't be bothered checking again to make sure how
many times exactly, you've mentioned cyanide capsules in the hand of
Reitsch and others.
Please explain to me the role of cyanide capsules in a noble cause.
On the other hand, even from the point of view of a non-pilot, I can
understand where Dudley Henriques was coming from in his own take of
Reitsch.
--
Stupot http://insignity.blogspot.com
CJ Adams
> God must have LOVED Hanna Reitsch very much :)
>
Pardon me while I throw up.
CJA
Rob Arndt
Hitler gave the cyanide capsule to Hanna in the bunker. As the
Russians closed in and the Third Reich collapsed, Hitler gave those
capsules to both people he loved or cared about (to prevent them
falling into Russian hands) AND those that might be loyal in the
present but betray him in the future through interrogation after his
own death.
From your POV nad moral standing amybe you cannot understand the
actions of Hitler putting Blondi down with cyanide which is always
reported by the Allies as a test of the cyanide capsule and how Hitler
destroyed everything he claimed to have loved. Not true, everyone who
knew about Hitler knew he loved animals and especially dogs. He did
not want Blondi to fall into Russian hands and cyanide was merciful
rather than shooting her. Same goes for Magda Goebbels, First Lady of
the Reich and mother. Her killing of their 6 children was morally
justified IMO. She as mother killed then mercifully and delivered them
directly into God's hands. Only she has to answer for their deaths,
but none were raped and tortured or murdered by the Russians. That was
a fate considered worse than death and as a mother, she did the right
thing as escape from the bunker at that time had become impossible.
She did not want her children psychologically and physically harmed by
the events of the bunker (uncle Hitler's death or death by pistol) and
the Russian advance on the bunker. Detestable by Allied POVs but
understandable by German POV. Hitler protected his dog and Magda
protected her children. By issuing cyanide, which seems macabre,
Hitler tried to protect those closest to him or at least offer another
way out that was much more efficient than a bullet.
Hanna DID keep the cyanide capsule with her during some of the worst
times in her life postwar and was tempted like any normal human being
undergoing the same incredible personal loss, stress, depression, and
feelings of betrayal along with the incredible persecution linked to
the Nazi regime. She did NOT, however, resort to taking it even under
the worst circumstances. In her book and biographies on her, it was
her deep loyalty to the Fatherland to live and ensure Germany
survived, at least to guarantee German aviation for the future. She
kept in close contact with her own Luftwaffe circle and pleaded with
many not to go abroad but stay in Germany for Germany's sake, not for
Hitler's memory or to rebuild a militarily aggressive Luftwaffe.
The myth that she killed herself with it in 1979 is false. She died of
a massive heart attack in her last night on earth. The fact that they
could not find the cyanide capsule is irrelevent. She had talked many
times of throwing it away and probably did. She achieved quite a lot
for a woman her age postwar in a defeated nation and her achievements
spread out over the world as they had done pre-war.
Again, you are missing the 1945 and immediate postwar German POV.
Hanna's father thought that loyalty to the Fatherland meant killing
his wife, daughter, three grandchildren, the maid, and then himself-
that death by your own hand was noble compared to undignified torture,
rape, and death at the hands of the Russians. Hanna for all she is
claimed to stand for as a Nazi heroine perservered through the worst
of times. She took the hard road and triumphed.
I see no conflict with German concepts of noble dying and possession
of a cyanide capsule.
Rob
Rob Arndt
Perhaps you should pick up a Bible.
1) God LOVES all of us unconditionally, and does not desire for any to
perish but all come to repentance
2) God LOVES us even in our sin (He hates the sin, but loves the
person)
3) God PROTECTS even those that are not His children
Hanna SHOULD have died in any of the 7 close calls with death from
ages 4-33 (1916-1945). Six of those were in the Third Reich. Hanna
always held a belief in God and prayed for her family and friends-
even during the Nazi regime. Her mother Emy was a strong Catholic and
interceded for her in prayer everyday. Hanna expresses her pain in
losing her mother in her book and her biographies. Hanna also writes
about her relationship with God postwar and the help of the two
Catholic priests that were with her in her latter years- supporting
her and urging her to trust God.
Before throwing up, maybe you should bother to read her book (s) first
before making judgements.
Also, she stood up for the Jews during Kristalnacht, supported a half-
Jew pilot during the war, and confronted Himmler directly over the
allegations of killing the Jews (name any other person in the Reich
that did that, especially while it was going on). Anyone else would
have been killed by the SS for making such an accusation. Between
satanic Himmler and Hitler, Hanna was protected.
Now tell me that God did not love Hanna Reitsch.
Rob
Dan
<snip>
>
> From your POV nad moral standing amybe you cannot understand the
> actions of Hitler putting Blondi down with cyanide which is always
> reported by the Allies as a test of the cyanide capsule and how Hitler
> destroyed everything he claimed to have loved. Not true, everyone who
> knew about Hitler knew he loved animals and especially dogs. He did
> not want Blondi to fall into Russian hands and cyanide was merciful
> rather than shooting her. Same goes for Magda Goebbels, First Lady of
> the Reich and mother. Her killing of their 6 children was morally
> justified IMO. She as mother killed then mercifully and delivered them
> directly into God's hands. Only she has to answer for their deaths,
> but none were raped and tortured or murdered by the Russians. That was
> a fate considered worse than death and as a mother, she did the right
> thing as escape from the bunker at that time had become impossible.
> She did not want her children psychologically and physically harmed by
> the events of the bunker (uncle Hitler's death or death by pistol) and
> the Russian advance on the bunker. Detestable by Allied POVs but
> understandable by German POV. Hitler protected his dog and Magda
> protected her children. By issuing cyanide, which seems macabre,
> Hitler tried to protect those closest to him or at least offer another
> way out that was much more efficient than a bullet.
You are one sick puppy beyond your adoration for Hitler. There was
nothing altruistic about the Goebbels bitch. She even had the man who
raised and loved her sent to a concentration camp. She could have had
the children sent to safety anytime she wanted. She wanted to go out in
a blaze of glory just as all the other Nazis did.
Your choice of the word "noble" when referring to the Nazis suiciding
rather than face the Allies is an extremely poor one. Suicide to avoid
potential suffering is hardly noble, it's self serving. You would
understand this if you look beyond your Nazi ideology. Suicide might
have been "noble" if it benefited the German state. Name one situation
where this was the case in 1945.
People like Speer and Goering were actually surprised they were
charged with war crimes after the war. How many of your "noble" Nazis
who suicided would have actually been charged? How many could have been
of value to the post Nazi state?
CJ Adams
Unlike you, I do not imagine that I speak for God.
In another post you wrote:
>Same goes for Magda Goebbels, First Lady of
>the Reich and mother. Her killing of their 6 children was
>morally justified IMO. She as mother killed then
mercifully >and delivered them directly into God's hands.
This from an individual who urges me to pick up a Bible.
Words fail.
CJA
Dan
Aren't also has a fetish for massive human suffering. He solution to
all problems seems to be "flatten the city of, "nuke them" etc. Hardly
Christian values.
Rob Arndt
>
> - Show quoted text -
So, you would rather that they lived and the children raped,
sodomized, tortured and killed at the hands of the Russians? Their
mother did the right thing- accountability is only on her head, but
all of her 6 children are in heaven- innocent. BTW, I do not need to
speak for God- everything I wrote was scriptural. Magda Goebbels must
answer before God for all her actions in life just as you and me,
everyone. She is guilty. But her children have to answer for nothing,
they were all under the age of accountability. Hitler also mercifully
put his own dog down than have her jeopardized by the Russians. Anyone
who loves their animal would have done the same thing under the
circumstances. Again, better than a gunshot and faster.
Rob
Rob Arndt
>
> - Show quoted text -
Check your Torah (if you have one). Did YHWH not tell the Israelites
to KILL every man, woman, child, and even cattle of the heathen in
Canaan?
Rob
Keith Willshaw
> So, you would rather that they lived and the children raped,
> sodomized, tortured and killed at the hands of the Russians?
Russian behaviour in Berlin was often bad but their are
remarkably few cases of their killing and abusing children
of that age. Indeed the children of Martin Bormann
survived as did the daughter of Herman Goering and the
son of Magda Goebbels - Harald Quant.
It was Joseph and Magda Goebbels who decided to take
their kids into the bunker when they could have easily evacuated
them to Bavaria.
They decided to murder their own children rather than send them to safety.
This is the full measure of their inhumanity.
Keith
Dan
That is true, but YOU claim to be a Christian, fellatia.
Rob Arndt
> "Rob Arndt" <teuton...@aol.com> wrote in message
Again, that is your opinion or Allied POV plus historical hindsight.
From the German perspective and/or Nazi ideology it was imperitive
that Magda and the children be present with Hitler as everyone around
him either faded into the woodwork or betrayed him as Goering and
Himmler had. Even Speer did not carry out his orders. They could have
left within 1 day of Reitsch arriving as the last Ju-52 arrived and
departed. But they were in the security of the bunker and were close
to Hitler. A loyalty thing. I am not excusing what Frau Goebbels did
on the surface, but I understand what she did and in the end she did
indeed guarantee that her children were in God's hands and not the
Russians. Traudl Junge was innocent and was gang-raped by them. Magda
did the right thign and so did Hitler with his dog. If you cannot
stomach that, too bad. I guess you would allow the enemy to rape your
children and shoot your dog, right Keith?
Rob
Dan
So, your opinion is more accurate how? You have never even been to
Germany let alone in 1945. You aren't even German. Once Hitler became a
good Nazi there was nothing holding anyone in the bunker. Some people
did leave, not always successfully. Borman became a good Nazi while
attempting escape. You are so obsessed with Hitler's gotterdamerung you
can't see there was absolutely NO nobility on the part of anyone in that
bunker. If Goebbels's bitch wanted to protect her children from abuse
she should have evacuated them instead of murdering them. There's a
special rotisserie in Hell for pigs like her.
If you had a child of your own you'd understand it is a parental
imperative to do anything to ensure their survival.
You have a history of excusing the Nazis, this is no different.
Rob Arndt
>
> - Show quoted text -
And claiming that you would piss on Hanna's grave is honorable for a
US serviceman and Jew who should be following the Torah with
forgiveness, mercy, compassion, and love towards everyone?
You are so full of shit Dan.
I don't remembering you critcizing Art for his lunch with Skorzeny.
Hmm...hypocrite.
All you want to do is vilify Germans, and as I stated in another
thread- if YOU had YOUR way, all Germans would be exterminated. So
what makes you any different from them? You use their same terminology
as well- untermenschen. Maybe you are German-Jew and want to kill
yourself over an internal conflict ;)
Suppose the Syrians, Hezbollah in Lebanon, and Iranians were to invade
Israel and rape and kill Jews. You're a pussy who proclaims the
horrors of the Holocaust akin to the Israeli Never Again vow and yet
says nothing and does nothing to support the modern State of Israel.
I HAVE for decades: IDF, FIDF, IFCJ. I am also a Republican who
supports the RNC and the party platform that GUARANTEES Israel's
security. Even Angela Merkel of Germany has vowed to protect Israel-
bet that burns you up that a German Chancellor spoke in the Knesset.
You sound to me like a fucking Dem liberal atheist Jew who talks
tough, but does nothing to safeguard Israel from modern Arab/Persian
Nazis that would love to spill the blood of every Jew in the region
and on earth.
At least I know from my Rabbi friend and Jacob (my friend that is in
Yeshiva in Israel) that to be a real Jew is, according to the Torah-
to benefit mankind in every way.
By that definition you are just as corrupt as the worst Gentiles of
any culture, race, and religion.
And a poor example of a retired US serviceman on top of that by your
bad language, perverted thinking, and dishonorable conduct here on
this NG.
But of course to you I am a Nazi for interest in the Third Reich,
weapons, war history, and my bloodline ethnicity.
Rob
Keith Willshaw
On Apr 28, 2:08?pm, "Keith Willshaw" <keithnos...@demon.co.uk> wrote:
> "Rob Arndt" <teuton...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:25777f0e-8805-4416...@k10g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 28, 12:13 pm, CJ Adams <blueb...@start.ca> wrote:
>
>>> Rob Arndt wrote:
>>> So, you would rather that they lived and the children raped,
>>> sodomized, tortured and killed at the hands of the Russians?
>
>> Russian behaviour in Berlin was often bad but their are
>> remarkably few cases of their killing and abusing children
>> of that age. Indeed the children of Martin Bormann
>> survived as did the daughter of Herman Goering and the
>> son of Magda Goebbels - Harald Quant.
>
>> their kids into the bunker when they could have easily evacuated
>> them to Bavaria.
>
> They decided to murder their own children rather than send them to safety.
> This is the full measure of their inhumanity.
>
> Keith
> Again, that is your opinion or Allied POV plus historical hindsight.
No its a stone cold fact. Magda`Goebbels could have fled to
Switzerland or Sweden, she could have gone to the western
part of Germany and surrendered to the British or Americans
as did Speer etc.
> From the German perspective and/or Nazi ideology it was imperitive
> that Magda and the children be present with Hitler as everyone around
> him either faded into the woodwork or betrayed him as Goering and
> Himmler had.
Just so, Magda`Goebbels was a loyal Nazi and a terrible mother.
Keith
Dan
Dan
You haven't read the Bible, have you?
>
> You are so full of shit Dan.
And you are a manure saleslady with a mouth full of samples.
>
> I don't remembering you critcizing Art for his lunch with Skorzeny.
> Hmm...hypocrite.
>
Go back and look, I told him I would have killed the bastard.
> All you want to do is vilify Germans, and as I stated in another
> thread- if YOU had YOUR way, all Germans would be exterminated.
I never said that, nor do I feel that way now or ever. What I did
say, you lying heathen, is I want all Nazis held accountable to include
the death penalty for the murderers.
So
> what makes you any different from them? You use their same terminology
> as well- untermenschen. Maybe you are German-Jew and want to kill
> yourself over an internal conflict ;)
Try Hungarian, fool. I use the term untermenschen because the Nazis
called themselves ubermenschen.
>
> Suppose the Syrians, Hezbollah in Lebanon, and Iranians were to invade
> Israel and rape and kill Jews.
Then kill the invaders, not their babies as you wish.
You're a pussy who proclaims the
> horrors of the Holocaust akin to the Israeli Never Again vow and yet
> says nothing and does nothing to support the modern State of Israel.
Again, you are wrong, but keep trying.
>
> I HAVE for decades: IDF, FIDF, IFCJ. I am also a Republican who
> supports the RNC and the party platform that GUARANTEES Israel's
> security.
I bet you even have Jewish friends, how white of you. Now, when are
you going to start showing as much pride in the U.S. as you do in the
Nazi regime?
Even Angela Merkel of Germany has vowed to protect Israel-
> bet that burns you up that a German Chancellor spoke in the Knesset.
Why should it? She wasn't a Nazi.
>
> You sound to me like a fucking Dem liberal atheist Jew who talks
> tough, but does nothing to safeguard Israel from modern Arab/Persian
> Nazis that would love to spill the blood of every Jew in the region
> and on earth.
And you want to slaughter innocent babies as a solution to every
conflict. You even brag about the massive casualties suffered by the
Allies putting the Nazis back into their sewers.
>
> At least I know from my Rabbi friend and Jacob (my friend that is in
> Yeshiva in Israel) that to be a real Jew is, according to the Torah-
> to benefit mankind in every way.
See? I knew you were going to tell me you have Jewish friends.
>
> By that definition you are just as corrupt as the worst Gentiles of
> any culture, race, and religion.
Really? How droll.
>
> And a poor example of a retired US serviceman on top of that by your
> bad language, perverted thinking, and dishonorable conduct here on
> this NG.
Bad language? You are the queen of vulgar language in RAM. No one
matches you there. Perverted thinking? You are the one who justifies
mass casualties for such things as advancement of German technology. You
have no honour, so how would you know how to behave thus?
>
> But of course to you I am a Nazi for interest in the Third Reich,
> weapons, war history, and my bloodline ethnicity.
As I have told you before, you are a Nazi because of your blood
purity rants, telling us how noble the Nazis were, telling real Germans
you are more German than they, how efficient the Nazis were in the
Holocaust etc. and stuff like that there. You have even admitted being a
Nazi. We have been over this time and again. If you don't want to be
considered a Nazi stop acting as one. If it steps like a goose...
CJ Adams
-
>
> So, you would rather that they lived and the children raped,
> sodomized, tortured and killed at the hands of the Russians? Their
> mother did the right thing- accountability is only on her head, but
> all of her 6 children are in heaven- innocent. BTW, I do not need to
> speak for God- everything I wrote was scriptural. Magda Goebbels must
> answer before God for all her actions in life just as you and me,
> everyone. She is guilty. But her children have to answer for nothing,
> they were all under the age of accountability. Hitler also mercifully
> put his own dog down than have her jeopardized by the Russians. Anyone
> who loves their animal would have done the same thing under the
> circumstances. Again, better than a gunshot and faster.
>
> Rob
You're a personality disorder, you are.
Look it up. Wiki explains.
CJA
George Z. Bush
> Rob Arndt wrote:
>>
Now you know why I no longer bother exchanging views with him.
George Z.
CJ Adams
>
> Now you know why I no longer bother exchanging views with him.
>
> George Z.
>
I guess maybe I did know it, but I was prepared to overlook
it for his other more sane, more interesting posts.
No more. It's all slime to me now.
Cheers
CJ Adams
tankfixer
@p39g2000prm.googlegroups.com>, teut...@aol.com says...
> On Apr 28, 12:01?am, "Keith Willshaw" <keithnos...@demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > "tankfixer" <paul.carr...@gmail.comm> wrote in message
> >
> > news:MPG.227eddb77...@nntp.earthlink.net...
> >
> > > In article <Tr8Rj.14516$3N1.12...@newsfe17.lga>, B2...@aol.com says...
> >
> > >> Keith as being trolls.
> >
> > > Daryl calls anyone who won't agree with his silly statements that Dan...
> >
> > And fails to respond with any arguments based on facts.
> >
> > Keith
>
> Perhaps he should just emulate you, Keith and stick to "official"
> Allied histories and <snip> all the rest you cannot answer.
Or he could be like you and worship a dead facist
tankfixer
keith...@demon.co.uk says...
An honorable husband would have insisted she take the children to a
safer place than Berlin..
Rob Arndt
It's just a matter of historical POV.
The German people saw the wreck Germany was in 1932 and then Hitler
comes along and delivers on ALL of his promises, transforming the
lives of German citizens and Germany as a nation into a new glorious
Reich of national unity, progress, and worldwide respect. So when war
comes, even under the worst conditions by 1945 you expect them to
throw in the towel... but wait, most Germans still support Hitler and
believe in the miracle weapons in the pipeline. They wait for another
amazing transition to the ultimate victory and rebuilding of the
Reich. THAT is 1945 German POV, so everything they did as the Russians
approached; from fleeing to suicide; Hitler killing his dog and Magda
killing her children; Hanna + Von Greim deciding to die in the bunker
and then following orders to leave for Doenitz ARE all rational in the
German mind. To not do so would seem out of character for them.
Your POV is postwar Allied victor song and Allied rationale concerning
German decisions that seem insane and balanced unequally against the
Holocaust. They did not live under either the prosperity of the Third
Reich or the demise of it. They cannot therefore speak for it
historically out of coerced and manipulated interrogations or solely
on what the SS did. Only Germans can speak of it in their terms for
that time period.
I realize I have offended some reading this and seem to be glorifying
what is perceived as senseless death. But if you and I had been
Germans (not even Nazis) in Berlin in 1945 as the Russians approached
in fury and revenge- would you not have done the same to save your dog
or your children? Just as you speak of the inhumanity of German troops
in Russia, there was ample proof of Russian Army retaliation on a
massive scale from the German Reich borders east all the way to
Berlin. The bunker was advised and prepared for that eventuality. That
probably was the most of reality they perceived in that surreal world
underground. I do not fault them for the way they chose to deal with
the situation. Magda Goebbels was a Nazi, and would be expected to be
at her husband's side and the Fuhrer's at Berlin. Naturally, she would
not deprive her children of uncle Hitler nor leave them alone as the
fronts collapsed, trusting that someone else would take care of them
or hide them. They could trust the safety of the bunker and still
believed Hitler would find a way towards either victory or a peaceful
settlement. But Hitler chose death for Germany. What could they do in
that position- desert Hitler too? Face the fury of the Red Army?
Absolutely not. Magda Goebbels could not even conceive life without
National Socialism and therefore, neither would she subject her
children to that nightmare of an uncertain future and/or death at the
hands of the Red horde.
Romanticizing Nazism? No. Justifying it? No. Stating Magda Goebbels
position and the conditions of 1945 Berlin in that bunker? Yes.
Rob
Rob Arndt
> In article <fv5k92$9ls$1$8300d...@news.demon.co.uk>,
> keithnos...@demon.co.uk says...
>
> - Show quoted text -
Honor in the Third Reich, Japan, and even USSR meant something totally
different from the Allied US/British definition.
Amazing that you cannot grasp that.
Rob
tankfixer
@y22g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, teut...@aol.com says...
> On Apr 28, 6:50?pm, tankfixer <paul.carr...@gmail.comm> wrote:
> > In article <fv5k92$9ls$1$8300d...@news.demon.co.uk>,
> > keithnos...@demon.co.uk says...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > "Rob Arndt" <teuton...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > >news:b0b67f35-319a-42bb...@t12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> > > On Apr 28, 2:08?pm, "Keith Willshaw" <keithnos...@demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > "Rob Arndt" <teuton...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >
> > > >news:25777f0e-8805-4416...@k10g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> > > > On Apr 28, 12:13 pm, CJ Adams <blueb...@start.ca> wrote:
> >
> > > >>> Rob Arndt wrote:
> > > >>> So, you would rather that they lived and the children raped,
> > > >>> sodomized, tortured and killed at the hands of the Russians?
> >
> > > >> Russian behaviour in Berlin was often bad but their are
> > > >> remarkably few cases of their killing and abusing children
> > > >> of that age. Indeed the children of Martin Bormann
> > > >> survived as did the daughter of Herman Goering and the
> > > >> son of Magda Goebbels - Harald Quant.
> >
> > > >> It was Joseph and ?Magda Goebbels who decided to take
> > > >> their kids into the bunker when they could have easily evacuated
> > > >> them to Bavaria.
> >
> > > > They decided to murder their own children rather than send them to safety.
> > > > This is the full measure of their inhumanity.
> >
> > > > Keith
> >
> > > > Again, that is your opinion or Allied POV plus historical hindsight.
> >
> > > Switzerland or Sweden, she could have gone to the western
> > > part of Germany and surrendered to the British or Americans
> > > as did Speer etc.
> >
> > > > From the German perspective and/or Nazi ideology it was imperitive
> > > > that Magda and the children be present with Hitler as everyone around
> > > > him either faded into the woodwork or betrayed him as Goering and
> > > > Himmler had.
> >
> > > Just so, Magda`Goebbels was a loyal Nazi and a terrible mother.
> >
> > An honorable husband would have insisted she take the children to a
> > safer place than Berlin..
>
> different from the Allied US/British definition.
>
> Amazing that you cannot grasp that.
So explain the millions of ordinary Germans who didn't commit suicide ?
Dan
> On Apr 28, 6:09�pm, CJ Adams <blueb...@start.ca> wrote:
>> George Z. Bush wrote:
>>
>>> Now you know why I no longer bother exchanging views with him.
>>> George Z.
>> I guess maybe I did know it, but I was prepared to overlook
>> it for his other more sane, more interesting posts.
>>
>> No more. �It's all slime to me now.
>>
>> Cheers
>> CJ Adams
>
> It's just a matter of historical POV.
>
> The German people saw the wreck Germany was in 1932 and then Hitler
> comes along and delivers on ALL of his promises, transforming the
> lives of German citizens and Germany as a nation into a new glorious
> Reich of national unity, progress, and worldwide respect. So when war
> comes, even under the worst conditions by 1945 you expect them to
> throw in the towel... but wait, most Germans still support Hitler and
> believe in the miracle weapons in the pipeline.
By the time Hitler became a good Nazi most Germans knew it was over.
Most new it by February 1945. There's just something about having enemy
soldiers on one's own turf that tends to clue one in.
They wait for another
> amazing transition to the ultimate victory and rebuilding of the
> Reich. THAT is 1945 German POV, so everything they did as the Russians
> approached; from fleeing to suicide; Hitler killing his dog and Magda
> killing her children; Hanna + Von Greim deciding to die in the bunker
> and then following orders to leave for Doenitz ARE all rational in the
> German mind.
In other words irrational to the normal mind.
To not do so would seem out of character for them.
>
> Your POV is postwar Allied victor song and Allied rationale
You live in an "Allied victor's" country, why is it only you see the
warm fuzzy side of the Nazis?
concerning
> German decisions that seem insane and balanced unequally against the
> Holocaust.
There's a good side to the Holocaust?
They did not live under either the prosperity of the Third
> Reich or the demise of it. They cannot therefore speak for it
> historically out of coerced and manipulated interrogations or solely
> on what the SS did. Only Germans can speak of it in their terms for
> that time period.
So why do you talk about it? You weren't there and you aren't German.
>
> I realize I have offended some reading this and seem to be glorifying
> what is perceived as senseless death. But if you and I had been
> Germans (not even Nazis) in Berlin in 1945 as the Russians approached
> in fury and revenge- would you not have done the same to save your dog
> or your children?
If you had either a dog or a child you'd look for better options, but
since you have neither you can't comprehend that murdering one's
children isn't a noble option.
Just as you speak of the inhumanity of German troops
> in Russia, there was ample proof of Russian Army retaliation on a
> massive scale from the German Reich borders east all the way to
> Berlin. The bunker was advised and prepared for that eventuality. That
> probably was the most of reality they perceived in that surreal world
> underground. I do not fault them for the way they chose to deal with
> the situation.
That's because you are a Nazi.
Magda Goebbels was a Nazi, and would be expected to be
> at her husband's side and the Fuhrer's at Berlin. Naturally, she would
> not deprive her children of uncle Hitler nor leave them alone as the
> fronts collapsed, trusting that someone else would take care of them
> or hide them. They could trust the safety of the bunker and still
> believed Hitler would find a way towards either victory or a peaceful
> settlement. But Hitler chose death for Germany. What could they do in
> that position- desert Hitler too? Face the fury of the Red Army?
> Absolutely not. Magda Goebbels could not even conceive life without
> National Socialism and therefore, neither would she subject her
> children to that nightmare of an uncertain future and/or death at the
> hands of the Red horde.
Your grasp on reality is slipping. Magda was not a Nazi in the true
sense as you are, she was a social climber who connected with the
malignant dwarf to further her ambitions. She no more loved him than her
children. The whore could have left Berlin with the children.
>
> Romanticizing Nazism?
You do it all the time.
No. Justifying it?
You do it all the time.
No. Stating Magda Goebbels
> position and the conditions of 1945 Berlin in that bunker? Yes.
Like you have a clue. If you were correct why is it so many Nazis
left the bunker when Hitler became a good Nazi? Remember what happened
to Eva's brother in law? He took a powder while the syphilitic swine was
still alive. You may be loyal to the Nazi cause but most of the pigs in
the bunker and senior Nazis weren't. They ran away, suicided or hid like
the cowards they were. If they were as big and brave as you wish you
were they'd stand up proudly and tell the world what they had done.
Himmler even tried to make a deal with the World Jewish Congress
before hiding in an army private's uniform. He suicided when he was
about to be found out. Some proud, upstanding Nazi he was. Goering was
afraid of the rope. Speer kissed a lot of ass to save his one worthless
hide. Borman became a good Nazi while attempting escape from Berlin.
What about all the loyal Nazis who stashed money in Switzerland for
their own escapes. They stole that money from the Reich. Argentina
became a haven for loyal Nazis who bailed out and let the common people
suffer for their own crimes.
I seriously doubt the Allies would have spent much effort chasing
Magda had ole clubfoot been in custody or dead. Himmler's family didn't
suffer all that much at the hands of the victors. Even Hitler's sister
came out OK.
You are a fraud, hermione.
Bob Matthews
Blondi's lucky that Hitler didn't have any piano wire handy.
==bob
>
> Rob
Keith Willshaw
> Honor in the Third Reich, Japan, and even USSR meant something totally
> different from the Allied US/British definition.
Yes in the third reich it meant it was OK to murder women and chilldren
by the million if they were not Aryan
> Amazing that you cannot grasp that.
We understand it all too well.
Keith
Keith Willshaw
On Apr 28, 6:09?pm, CJ Adams <blueb...@start.ca> wrote:
> George Z. Bush wrote:
>
> > Now you know why I no longer bother exchanging views with him.
>
> > George Z.
>
> I guess maybe I did know it, but I was prepared to overlook
> it for his other more sane, more interesting posts.
>
>
> Cheers
> CJ Adams
It's just a matter of historical POV.
> The German people saw the wreck Germany was in 1932 and then Hitler
> comes along and delivers on ALL of his promises, transforming the
> lives of German citizens and Germany as a nation into a new glorious
> Reich of national unity, progress, and worldwide respect. So when war
> comes, even under the worst conditions by 1945 you expect them to
> throw in the towel... but wait, most Germans still support Hitler and
> believe in the miracle weapons in the pipeline.
Actually they dont, when the British Army reached the outskirts of
Hamburg they found a population relieved that the war was finally
over and that they were not being occupied by the Russians.
The SS had to use drum head court martials and executions
to prevent towns and villages from surrendering , any mayor
who eve discussed the idea was liable to execution for
defeatism.
Keith
Daryl Hunt
>Amazing that you cannot grasp that.
Rob, how about you stop with the jumping at their bating. It's a gangbang
and you are in the circle.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Dan
>
> "Rob Arndt" <teut...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:dfd9ee17-ff5b-4a9d...@y22g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>> Amazing that you cannot grasp that.
>
> Rob, how about you stop with the jumping at their bating. It's a
> gangbang and you are in the circle.
>
Aren't, you really should take your friend's advice on this even if
he can't spell "baiting" or "batting." You have made as complete a fool
of yourself as you have in months.
Rob Arndt
Coming from someone who would piss on a grave, I don't take anything
you say as worth anything.
Your hypocrisy is astounding. A German soldier pisses on a Jewish
grave- desecration, unforgivable, quick- cry "Holocaust", "Nazi", "War
Criminal". Yet you,as a supposedly honorable serviceman,admit to
pissing on Waffen SS soldiers graves.
What a scumbag you really are.
Rob
Dan
If you become a good Nazi before I die I may do it on your grave too.
tankfixer
Dan, you should know by know that no matter how Daryl spells it he is
the master....
Rob Arndt
>
> - Show quoted text -
I don't think the nursing home will allow you to travel...
Rob
Dan
The part you seem to be missing is the SS were all volunteers and all
were Nazi fanatics dedicated to racial purity. Part of their mission was
to murder Jews wherever they found them. The Jews didn't volunteer to be
shot, burned alive, buried alive or gassed. Your defense of the SS once
again is noted.
As for "the nursing home" the nearest one is 4 miles away. Why would
they have a say in my travel?
Rob Arndt
First of all, get it right Dan. There are many branches of the SS.
Armed SS were Waffen SS. Not Hitler's bodyguard SS that came from the
SA that recruited from the illegal Freikorps. Not the SD security
service. Not the Ahnenerbe Occult Bureau. Not the Einsatzkommandos.
Not the SS Technical Branch E-IV (Entwicklungsstelle 4). Not RuSha
(Race & Resettlement). Not the Schwarz Sonne SS Religious Order. None
of them.
When you say SS, be specific. When talking about armed SS soldiers
they are Waffen SS.
Second, you do not speak for the volunteers of the Waffen SS and WHY
they individually chose to join no matter the oath "Meine Ehre Heisst
Treue" (My Honor is Loyalty). Many joined due to the uniform and elite
status as a fighting unit- no different than the dress blues and elite
status of the US Marine Corps appeal to US fighting men.
My uncles joined for that reason and never killed any Jews. They
fought Allied soldiers in combat on the Western Front and did not
fanatically die trying, nor commit suicide. They surrendered in 1945
after running out of ammo.
Your broad generalizations and condemnation is noted.
If you say the SS was a criminal organization, then Nazi Germany as a
state was a criminal one since Himmler ran Germany and the occupied
nations by force with the SS and Gestapo. The German Army also killed
Jews and swore an oath to Hitler. Where is your condemnation there?
They saw what the Einsatzkommandos did as well and did not protest...
too loudly, if at all...
So, you lost some family in WW2?- so did most of the combatants of
every nation. And Russian losses make the Holocaust look like a joke
as 30 million of them were killed (Hx5).
I'm sorry that my family survived the war- all of them on both
sides :)
No wait, I'm not.
You are just a bitter old man who won't let go of the Holocaust
crutch. It's been 63 years already. Give it a rest.
Rob
Dan
The entire SS organization was tasked with enforcing Aryan purity and
all of them were vetted as being of "pure" Aryan blood. They were
tasked with rooting out anything that ran contrary to Nazi ideology. The
SD, for example was well known for their ruthless hunts for communists
and Jews. Race and resettlement was directly involved in the Holocaust.
They were all part of the same SS under Himmler.
>
> Second, you do not speak for the volunteers of the Waffen SS
Neither do you. I do, however, know the requirements and training.
and WHY
> they individually chose to join no matter the oath "Meine Ehre Heisst
> Treue" (My Honor is Loyalty). Many joined due to the uniform and elite
> status as a fighting unit- no different than the dress blues and elite
> status of the US Marine Corps appeal to US fighting men.
Wrong again, the USMC doesn't have racial purity or ideological
requirements. The SS volunteers had to fit both.
>
> My uncles joined for that reason and never killed any Jews.
I don't know that. Did they ever murder any unarmed civilians or
POWs? Despite being asked several times you have never named their
units. Directly or indirectly all waffen SS units were involved in
killing Jews and the other groups the Nazis murdered. The SS in the west
murdered unarmed civilians and POWs. Yes, the waffen SS. If your alleged
uncles told you otherwise or that they didn't know they were lying to
you. If those uncles actually existed and are still alive ask them to
tell you the truth.
They
> fought Allied soldiers in combat on the Western Front and did not
> fanatically die trying, nor commit suicide.
Weren't you telling us how noble it was to suicide or die in a blaze
of glory?
They surrendered in 1945
> after running out of ammo.
>
> Your broad generalizations and condemnation is noted.
Your evasions and idolatry are noted.
>
> If you say the SS was a criminal organization,
The Nuremberg Tribunals declared the SS a criminal organization.
then Nazi Germany as a
> state was a criminal one since Himmler ran Germany and the occupied
> nations by force with the SS and Gestapo.
Wrong answer. Himmler may have been an enforcer within Germany
proper, but he never "ran Germany." Do you have the slightest how Nazi
Germany was organized politically? Are you saying the Nuremberg Laws,
rounding up millions of people, including Jews, for "resettlement" and
the like were not crimes? Are you saying it was OK for the Nazis to have
started the war?
The German Army also killed
> Jews and swore an oath to Hitler. Where is your condemnation there?
I also condemn them for that. Where did you get the idea I didn't? I
don't have a problem with the oath to Hitler. I have a problem with the
mission of enforcing Aryan purity. The SS had such a mission. You keep
bragging about your SS heroes so they are the ones discussed. The army
also butchered innocent civilians in the east. So did German policemen
impressed into service in the occupied territories.
> They saw what the Einsatzkommandos did as well and did not protest...
> too loudly, if at all...
Does that excuse anyone? If so, whom?
>
> So, you lost some family in WW2?
"Some family?" With the exception of my mother and grandparents I
lost the entire Hungarian side of the family. Tell us again how funny
the Holocaust was. Tell us how funny it would have been if the German
side of your family had been hauled off in cattle cars and gassed. Go
right ahead.
- so did most of the combatants of
> every nation. And Russian losses make the Holocaust look like a joke
> as 30 million of them were killed (Hx5).
The Holocaust and Barbarossa were not a joke. One doesn't excuse the
other. Remember, YOU are the one who likes huge body counts and have
boasted about how well Germany slaughtered 12 million innocent civilians
during the Holocaust. Barbarossa was a criminal act and cause human
suffering you can't comprehend. I am a combat vet. I have seen what war
really is. You don't and never will. I don't wish that experience on you
or anyone else.
>
> I'm sorry that my family survived the war- all of them on both
> sides :)
I am too.
>
> No wait, I'm not.
>
> You are just a bitter old man
I'm not much older than you, fool.
who won't let go of the Holocaust
> crutch. It's been 63 years already. Give it a rest.
OK, when will YOU give the Germany uber alles garbage a rest? When
will YOU stop excusing what the Nazis did? When will YOU stop bragging
about how big and tough Nazi Germany was and how many people died
putting them down? I'm not the one living in the past, you are. When
will YOU admit Germany was wrong for starting the war and causing the
massive human suffering that resulted?
All you ever do is tell us how bad others are so no one has the right
to criticize Nazi Germany, how Germany was victimized by the allies
during and after the war and how the technological advances the Germans
made justified the entire war.
You have never been to Germany and refuse to even visit there. All
you do is tell us how great all things German are, how great your German
blood is and how worthless the victors are.
Now matter how much you deny it you come across as an unrepentant
Nazi. Your denials are as believable as your Jon the Frenchman and Xenia
the woman personae were.
George Z. Bush
> In article <UAIRj.5036$1M1....@newsfe23.lga>, B2...@aol.com says...
>> Daryl Hunt wrote:
>>>
>>> "Rob Arndt" <teut...@aol.com> wrote in message
>>> news:dfd9ee17-ff5b-4a9d...@y22g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>>>> Amazing that you cannot grasp that.
>>>
>>> Rob, how about you stop with the jumping at their bating. It's a
>>> gangbang and you are in the circle.
>>>
>>
>> Aren't, you really should take your friend's advice on this even if
>> he can't spell "baiting" or "batting." You have made as complete a fool
>> of yourself as you have in months.
>
>
> Dan, you should know by know that no matter how Daryl spells it he is
> the master....
"Oh Norman, listen! The loons are calling!"
- Katherine Hepburn, "On Golden Pond"
Great cut line and oh, so appropriate!!!
George Z.
Dan
Bob Matthews
"If you don't think too good, don't think too much." Ted Williams
==bob
funk...@hotmail.com
>Rob Arndt wrote:
>> http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pif&GScid=2134472&GRid=14141351&FLgrid=14141351&PIgrid=14141351&PIcrid=2134472&ShowCemPhotos=Y&
>>
>> Rob
>It's interesting to note on Hanna's grave, the huge headstone. The same
>format was used for Galland's grave in Remagen-Oberwinter. The way I got
>the story is that this was done to discourage grave robbers and desecration.
>
funk...@hotmail.com
A few years back (perhaps 10) a number of monuments were vandalized
and as a result, the caretakers of the cemeteries will not conduct you
to any graves of WWII personalities, nor admit that they have any
buried there. With the advent of the Internet more information is out
there but they are not going to help anyone. Friends and family
already know where the graves are.