Bf-109 What's in a Name
dg
Not Clara, Dora, Emil, Friedrich etc
Ta
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Gordon
>Was the Messerschmitt 109 ever given an 'official' generic name.
>Not Clara, Dora, Emil, Friedrich etc
>Ta
No it was not. Internal documents all identify it in the following manner:
Bf-109, Me-109, 8-109. No variations, no official nicknames. That's true of
the majority of German wartime designs.
v/r
Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR Aircrew
"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."
Phillip Pride
news:20020112132332...@mb-ca.aol.com...
> No it was not. Internal documents all identify it in the following
manner:
> Bf-109, Me-109, 8-109. No variations, no official nicknames. That's
true of
> the majority of German wartime designs.
Has anyone seen a German wartime document that referred to the 109 as a
Me-109? I've only see Bf-109, which was its official nomenclature. AFAIK,
only the allies referred to them as Mes.
Ilari Lehtinen
for the G series.
-Ilari
Gordon
>Has anyone seen a German wartime document that referred to the 109 as a
>Me-109? I've only see Bf-109, which was its official nomenclature. AFAIK,
>only the allies referred to them as Mes.
I have documents with Me-109 listed as aircraft type. KTBs (unit loss reports)
as well as production documents from Messerschmitt. The refer to production of
"Me109G AS" aircraft. Also, the wartime pilots all referred to their fighters
as "the Me" (pronounced May). Galland was asked that particular question
multiple times on camera.
Gordon
>Not sure about the officiality but 'Gustav' was widely used, at least
>for the G series.
>
>-Ilari
Agreed. As with Stuka, Pedro (early model of He-111 that saw service in
Spain), and others, there were certainly a few nicknames that were widely
recognized, if not officially adopted. In regards to the 109, I haven't any
documents that specifically identify it by a nickname, although Gustav is a
name familiar to every wartime pilot anywhere close to Northern Europe.
Stefan Diekmann
> >
> >Has anyone seen a German wartime document that referred to the 109 as a
> >Me-109? I've only see Bf-109, which was its official nomenclature.
AFAIK,
> >only the allies referred to them as Mes.
>
> I have documents with Me-109 listed as aircraft type. KTBs (unit loss
reports)
> as well as production documents from Messerschmitt. The refer to
production of
> "Me109G AS" aircraft. Also, the wartime pilots all referred to their
fighters
> as "the Me" (pronounced May). Galland was asked that particular question
> multiple times on camera.
>
something between a prototype, and a record breaker. I'm not aware of any
Me-109 carrying any weapons.
The Luftwaffe used Bf-109 aircraft as their primary fighter. There are many
books that wrongfully name them Me-109, but that doesn't make it correct.
Regards
Stefan
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
"Gordon" <krzta...@aol.comint> wrote in message
>> Not sure about the officiality but 'Gustav' was widely
>> used, at least for the G series.
>
> saw service in Spain), and others, there were certainly a
> few nicknames that were widely recognized, if not
> officially adopted. In regards to the 109, I haven't any
> documents that specifically identify it by a nickname,
> although Gustav is a name familiar to every wartime pilot
> anywhere close to Northern Europe.
I recall reading that the Gustav came out relatively late in
the war and that it was so heavy that its handling
characteristics were adversely affected. The Emil was the
best liked version among Luftwaffe pilots.
Of course, I wasn't there, but I know I've read this
before.....
--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
msch...@carolina.rr.com.nospam
http://www.mortimerschnerd.com
Cub Driver
>Was the Messerschmitt 109 ever given an 'official' generic name.
>Not Clara, Dora, Emil, Friedrich etc
>Ta
As you suggest, the model names were the pet names. The Finnish pilots
always referred to their Bf-109s as Emils.
I didn't know about Clara and Dora. Girl's names for fighters? When I
lived in Germany, the telephone operators used a phonetic alphabet
consisting entirely of boy's names. I thought it was a national
requirement. Kinder, kirche, kuchen, and all that.
And wouldn't Clara actually be Klara?
all the best -- Dan Ford (email: let...@danford.net)
see the Warbird's Forum at http://danford.net
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub
Gordon
>I didn't know about Clara and Dora. Girl's names for fighters?
The only 'Dora' that German pilots mention is the "langnase" (FW-190D-9). The
D model 109 wasn't that long serving so is not considered a very important
model. Emil and Gustav were the common nicknames for their individual models
of Bf-109, with Friedrich rarely mentioned. FW-190 pilots usually called their
fighters by the factory name 'Focke Wulf', except the D series which is usually
called a Long Nose or Dora. The Ta-154 was officially called a Moskito; the
321/323 are mentioned as Gigants; Ju-52/3m were universally known as Tante Ju
(Auntie "Yew"). Of course, many other nicknames, but few officially recognized.
For the jets/rockets, the Komet and Blitz both had their names commonly,
however, documents nearly always call then 8-163 and 8-234 (8 was the number
that denoted the aircraft was military). Me-262s were known at various times
under project names (Akorn, Maple, Sturmvogel, Schwalbe) and even under
ficticious names -- such as Me-665 on at least a couple early documents.
Not much help here I guess. Sorry.
Gordon
>fighters
>> as "the Me" (pronounced May). Galland was asked that particular question
>> multiple times on camera.
>>
>That is very unlikely. The Me-109 never was a military aircraft. It was
>something between a prototype, and a record breaker. I'm not aware of any
>Me-109 carrying any weapons.
As unlikely as it may seem to you, Galland replied to that question
consistantly, calling the 109, "the Me". I wish I could recall if he said die
Me or der Me, but regardless, the former General of Fighters called it Me.
Also, if you disagree with the factory use on documents (i.e., Me 109G AS), I
will gather a list of titles of Messerschmitt documents were it was used.
>The Luftwaffe used Bf-109 aircraft as their primary fighter. There are many
>books that wrongfully name them Me-109, but that doesn't make it correct.
You are right - the official designation is NOT Me-109 (although the Allies
thought ME109 was correct), however, BFW documents from Augsburg did use Me 109
on a limited number of reports.
Gordon
>I recall reading that the Gustav came out relatively late in
>the war
In in fighting from Summer 1942-May 45, in time for most of the heaviest
fighting.
and that it was so heavy that its handling
>characteristics were adversely affected. The Emil was the
>best liked version among Luftwaffe pilots.
While the G-6, with its bumps, bulges, underwing cannons, etc. would
undoubtably fit this description, a G-2 was fast, nimble, and reasonably well
armed. G-10AS or G-14s were about as good as the 109 could get and the AS and
A engined 109s were light years better than an E-4 or E-7. Even Galland
quickly gave up on the Emil, once later models were introduced. Visibility in
the E/F/early G models was just plain awful and I can't see anyone choosing a
1941 airframe over a 1944 G-10! When Goering went ballistic on Walter Dahl
for not sending a full strength response against a US bomber raid (Oct. 44), he
demanded that Galland come to Jueterbog immediately (while the raid was still
going on); 20 minutes later, Galland came in and landed on Jueterbog's grass
landing field in an immaculate Bf-109F; obviously, if the General of Fighters
wanted to keep driving an Emil, he could have, but Galland chose an F model.
v/r
Gordon
Gordon
>Also, if you disagree with the factory use on documents (i.e., Me 109G AS), I
>will gather a list of titles of Messerschmitt documents were it was used.
Also, the aircraft data plate had "Me 109" embossed on at least a couple
airframes. This is not a guess -- I've seen photos of the data plate.
Geoffrey Sinclair
>
>>Was the Messerschmitt 109 ever given an 'official' generic name.
>>Not Clara, Dora, Emil, Friedrich etc
>>Ta
>
>As you suggest, the model names were the pet names. The Finnish pilots
>always referred to their Bf-109s as Emils.
>
>I didn't know about Clara and Dora. Girl's names for fighters? When I
>lived in Germany, the telephone operators used a phonetic alphabet
>consisting entirely of boy's names. I thought it was a national
>requirement. Kinder, kirche, kuchen, and all that.
Eagle In Flames by E R Hooton, Appendix 21, The Luftwaffe
pilot's alphabet.
Anton, Berta/Bertha, Ceasar, Dora, Emil, Friedrich, Gustav, Heinrich,
Ida, Julius, Kurfurst, Ludwig, Martha, Nordpol, Otto, Paula, Quelle,
Richard, Siegfried, Toni, Ulrich, Viktor, Wilhelm, Xavier/Xenophon,
Ypsilon, Zeppelin.
Which fits the nicknames of various fighters quite well, and the names
of the main turrets on Bismarck.
With the 13mm machine guns fitted the Bf109G also carried the
nickname Beule or Bump, according to Martin Caidin.
Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
Lee Hutchinson
messerschmitt factories they were Me-109s but i think eventually all production
was done in the former Bayerische Flugzeugwerke (BFW) factories a company that had
been merged with messerschmitt in 1927.
so eventually with all production coming from the BFW factories it was the Bf 109,
that seems to be the most obvious explaination for me. I might be wrong though.
Lee hutch
JDupre5762
>original
>messerschmitt factories they were Me-109s but i think eventually all
>production
>was done in the former Bayerische Flugzeugwerke (BFW) factories a company
>that had
>been merged with messerschmitt in
>1927.>so eventually with all production coming from the BFW factories it was
the Bf 109,
That seems correct to the beginning of the war but I thought that at some point
BFW became Messerschmitt AG or the equivalent and from that point most in
production designs were referred to with an Me prefix. For example the 262 or
163 was never given the Bf designator and the 108, 109 and 110 were then
referred to as Me rather than Bf.
In any event Bf was the official prefix for the 109 design for most of its life
but in practice was just as often referred to as Me. I have seen photos of
some kind of multiple aircraft use ground equipment with Me 109 painted at the
service point for the 109.
John Dupre'
JDupre5762
>the war and that it was so heavy that its handling
>characteristics were adversely affected. The Emil was the
>best liked version among Luftwaffe pilots.
I read an interview with either 301 victory ace Gerd Barkhorn or 275 victory
ace Gunther Rall who claimed that he felt the F model was the best flying
example. It was much cleaner than E or later G models and I think lighter even
than the similar early G models the F had the lighter 15mm nose cannon rather
than the 20mm. Whichever pilot it was made the statement " in the F I could do
anything!" describing its dogfighting and aerobatic qualities.
John Dupre'
JDupre5762
>>Not Clara, Dora, Emil, Friedrich etc
>>Ta
>
>As you suggest, the model names were the pet names. The Finnish pilots
>always referred to their Bf-109s as Emils.
>
I thought that the Finns called the Bf 109 Mersu? I see in some of the books
I have that they refer to it as the MT which is the prefix for all Finnish
Messerschmitt identification numbers. Why would they call them Emil since
they only ever operated G or Gustav models?
John Dupre'
Lee Hutchinson
After the merger BFW was responsible for all production and the messerschmitt side
was responsible for design work. They still had seperate corporate identities but
were working to produce the same final product.
in 1929 the merged messerschmitt/BFW was driven to bankruptcy after an argument
between messerschmitt and Milch (then lufthansas director of procurement) that
resulted in the loss of a major lufthansa contract.
BFW was later reformed but limited by Milch (now secratary of state) to building
other peoples designs only.
So it seems the later messerschmitt designed aircraft carried the Me prefix as you
said!!
Looks like i got things the wrong way around LOL
Lee Hutch
Yama
"JDupre5762" <jdupr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020113100628...@mb-bh.aol.com...
> >As you suggest, the model names were the pet names. The Finnish pilots
> >always referred to their Bf-109s as Emils.
>
That's right. I have never heard Finnish 109's being called "Emils". Finnish
nickname for Bf 109 was indeed "Mersu", shortened from Mercedes (Benz).
Sometimes (very seldom) I've seen "Gustav" used in Finnish sources. And of
course it was called by it's prefix MT.
Ari Vaulo
wrote:
Shortened from "Messerschmitt". I think you made a mistake because of
people are using the same nickname for some cars.
--Ari
Emmanuel Gustin
> than the similar early G models the F had the lighter 15mm nose cannon
rather
> than the 20mm.
AFAIK the 15-mm MG 151 and 20-mm MG 151/20 differed
only by the calibre of the barrel, while the cartidge case was
necked-out to take the larger projectile. The barrel of the 20-mm
version was shorter too; so the weight was the same. Both the
20-mm and 15-mm version were used on the Bf 109F, but it is
not clear to me which version had which gun.
--
Emmanuel Gustin <gus...@NoSpam.uia.ac.be>
(Delete NoSpam. from my address. If you can't reach me, your host
may be on our spam filter list. Check http://www.uia.ac.be/cc/spam.html.)
Bill Shatzer
On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, Emmanuel Gustin wrote:
-snips-
> AFAIK the 15-mm MG 151 and 20-mm MG 151/20 differed
> only by the calibre of the barrel, while the cartidge case was
> necked-out to take the larger projectile. The barrel of the 20-mm
> version was shorter too; so the weight was the same. Both the
> 20-mm and 15-mm version were used on the Bf 109F, but it is
> not clear to me which version had which gun.
Officially, the Bf-109F-0 and F-1 had the 20mm MG FF nose cannon; the
Bf-109F-2 and F-3, the 15mm MG 151/15; and the Bf-109F-4 had the MG
151/20. However, because of the two versions of the MG 151 were
essentially interchangeable, it appears that the MG 151/20 occassionally
showed up on the F-2s and F-3s and the MG 151/15 on the F-4s - presumably
the result of field swaps by Jagdgruppen maintainance folks.
(The F-5 and F-6 versions were photo recon models and carried no nose
mounted cannon at all.)
Cheers and all,
Yama
"Ari Vaulo" <som...@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:130120022136553217%som...@microsoft.com...
I am fairly sure there were Mercedes cars in Finland before Messerschmitt
fighters, and I suppose the nickname "Mersu" predates the aircraft. It just
so happened they were both German, quality products and had a name beginning
"Me"...
Cub Driver
>"Me109G AS" aircraft. Also, the wartime pilots all referred to their fighters
>as "the Me" (pronounced May). Galland was asked that particular question
>multiple times on camera.
During or after the war? If after, could it have been they were
deferring to the victor?
After all, Japanese regularly refer to the A6M as the Zero, but they
didn't call it that but Reisen.
Cub Driver
>I thought that the Finns called the Bf 109 Mersu? I see in some of the books
Mersu is correct.
Jukka O. Kauppinen
> always referred to their Bf-109s as Emils.
As others posted also, never heard any Finnish pilot call the 109 as
Emil.
Quickly browsed through my current project of interview of the 32
victory ace Kyösti Karhila, and he calls the 109 as "Mersu" every single
time plane type is mentioned.
jok
--
Jukka O. Kauppinen jukka.k...@mikrobitti.fi ICQ: 1848 793
Journalist Tel/fax +358-(0)3-222 9396 GSM 040-730 0036
http://mikrobitti.fi/~jukkak
Gordon
>fighters
>>as "the Me" (pronounced May). Galland was asked that particular question
>>multiple times on camera.
>
>During or after the war?
Galland was specifically replying to the question, "How did you refer to your
aircraft? Bf 109 or Me 109?" He shrugged and said, 'We always called it the
Me'. On other interviews, I have seen him give similar responses -- same with
Rall, a diehard Bf 109 guy.
Ed Buck
"Gordon" <krzta...@aol.comint> wrote > Agreed. As with Stuka, Pedro
(early model of He-111 that saw service in
Pedro was the name on one particular He-111 whose crew took their mascot
scotty dog "Pedro" into battle. The little guy met his end on a mission;
KIA by flak. His likeness was painted on the tail and the plane named after
him. As a nickname for a type in general, no.
Ed
Bill Shatzer
Gerald Howson, in this book, "Aircraft of the Spanish Civil War,
1936-1939" indicates to the contrary.
"Early in February, 1937. four Heinkel 111B-1s, three or four Do 17E-1s
and four Ju 86D-1s were unloaded at Cadiz and assembled in the 'Zeppelin
Hangar' on Tablada Aerodrome, Seville, the Dorniers being under the
technical supervision of the company engineer, Junginger. The twelve
bombers were then flown to Salamanca and incorporated into VB/88 under the
command of von Moreau. The Do 17E-1s were assigned the Nationalist type
code 27 and, as the He 111B-1s were nicknamed "Pedros" in commemmoration
of von Moreau's previous bomber group of Ju 52s, so the Do 17E-1s were
nicknamed "Pablos".
Rudolph von Moreau's Ju 52/3m Kette was nicknamed "Pedro" while the
second Kette, commanded by Alfred Henke was nicknamed "Pablo". The origin
of these nicknames is not fully explained but apparently it somehow
originated with the noms-de-guerre being assigned to the German crewmen at
that time.
I can't confirm Howson's claims from another source but I don't have a lot
of Spanish Civil War books here at home. Howson is pretty good on the
things I have checked him on so I'd tend to trust him on the Pablo/Pedro
nicknames for the two bombers.
Cheers and all,
Gordon
>(early model of He-111 that saw service in
>> Spain), > Gordon
>
>Pedro was the name on one particular He-111 whose crew took their mascot
>scotty dog "Pedro" into battle. The little guy met his end on a mission;
>KIA by flak. His likeness was painted on the tail and the plane named after
>him. As a nickname for a type in general, no.
According to Luftwaffe veterans, yes. The early He-111's were referred to as
Pedros. A quick search on "Pedro" and "He-111" brings up several websites that
agree with me, plus, I know He-111 crewmen that also called the early models
Pedro.
v/r
Gordon
PS, the story that you tell is plausible -- I can only tell you that in
discussions with LW vets, the reason they give for the name "Pedro" is simply
the connection to its Spanish service.
Thom
>>
>>Has anyone seen a German wartime document that referred to the 109 as a
>>Me-109? I've only see Bf-109, which was its official nomenclature. AFAIK,
>>only the allies referred to them as Mes.
The BF on all Messerschmidt AC was changed to ME just before the war.
THOM
>
>I have documents with Me-109 listed as aircraft type. KTBs (unit loss reports)
>as well as production documents from Messerschmitt. The refer to production of
>"Me109G AS" aircraft. Also, the wartime pilots all referred to their fighters
>as "the Me" (pronounced May). Galland was asked that particular question
>multiple times on camera.
>
Thom
>Was the Messerschmitt 109 ever given an 'official' generic name.
>Not Clara, Dora, Emil, Friedrich etc
Only a few Luftwaffe aircraft had official names other than their
factory names.
Each factory was given a block of numbers (i.e. ME-108. 109. 110 etc)
and they put their own factory names in from of them.
And example of the exceptions to the rule was the Fi-103 and the
FZG-76 cruise missiles which were both called the V-1, the C-2
surface-to-air missile which was called the "Waterfall", the ME-264
called the "New York Bomber", and the ME-262 "Blitz-Bomber. This last
one Hitler himself designated.
THOM
Andreas Parsch
> On Sat, 12 Jan 2002 17:45:39 +0000, dg <davi...@LineOne.net> wrote:
>
> Only a few Luftwaffe aircraft had official names other than their
> factory names.
>
> Each factory was given a block of numbers (i.e. ME-108. 109. 110 etc)
> and they put their own factory names in from of them.
Correct. For a list of numbers, you may refer to my page at
http://www.designation-systems.net/non-us/germany.html
>
> And example of the exceptions to the rule was the Fi-103 and the
> FZG-76 cruise missiles which were both called the V-1,
Fi-103 and FZG-76 were two cover designations for exactly the same thing.
> the C-2
> surface-to-air missile which was called the "Waterfall", the ME-264
> called the "New York Bomber", and the ME-262 "Blitz-Bomber. This last
> one Hitler himself designated.
I wouldn't call "Blitzbomber" an official name. It was simply a generic name
for a fast bomber, which Hitler wanted. Semi-officially, the name
"Sturmvogel" ("storm bird") was used for the bomber versions of the Me-262
(the fighter was sometimes called "Schwalbe" - "swallow").
Best wishes
Andreas
Andreas Parsch
> On 13 Jan 2002 08:50:13 GMT, krzta...@aol.comint (Gordon) wrote:
>
>
>>>Has anyone seen a German wartime document that referred to the 109 as a
>>>Me-109? I've only see Bf-109, which was its official nomenclature. AFAIK,
>>>only the allies referred to them as Mes.
>>>
> The BF on all Messerschmidt AC was changed to ME just before the war.
>
It wasn't. While new aircraft used the Me-prefix from 1938 on (when the
Bayerische Flugzeugwerke were renamed to Messerschmitt AG), several
authoritative sources explicitly say that the change was _not_ retroactively
applied to the then existing aircraft (Bf-108/109/110). Instead the
Bf-prefix was kept for these models up to and including the final versions.
As others have pointed out, that doesn't mean that the Bf-109 wasn't called
"Me" in general parlance or even some documentation.
Andreas
Larry Doering
Ilari Lehtinen <spi...@focused.wox.org> wrote:
>Not sure about the officiality but 'Gustav' was widely used, at least
>for the G series.
>
>Gordon wrote:
>>
>> >Was the Messerschmitt 109 ever given an 'official' generic name.
>> >Not Clara, Dora, Emil, Friedrich etc
Dora, Emil, Friedrich, and Gustav are all letters in
the German phonetic alphabet that was in use during the
Second World War.
So "Gustav" wasn't a nickname, it was just the phonetic
alphabet equivalent of "G".
According to <http://www.feldgrau.com/alphabet.html>,
the full alphabet was:
Anton, Berta/Bruno, Caeser, Dora, Emil, Friedrich/Fritz,
Gustav, Heinrich, Ida, Josef, Konrad/Kurfust, Ludwig,
Martha, Nordpol, Otto, Paula, Quelle, Richard, Siegfried,
Toni, Ulrich, Viktor, Wilhelm, Xantippe, Ypern, Zeppelin
ljd
Thom
wrote:
I would be inclined to think that AC having Bf in front of them, did
change but new ones did. Example: Bf-109A, B, C and then Me-109D, E,
F etc etc.
Remember that that same thing happened with Focke-Wolf when Fat Herman
had Kurt Tanks' name put on all his designs after a certain date but
that didn't change the old ones. The FW-190, FW-200 etc didn't become
the Ta-190, Ta-200 but you did see productions runs of the Ta-152,
Ta-154 and the like.
THOM
>
>Andreas
>
Thom
wrote:
>Thom wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 12 Jan 2002 17:45:39 +0000, dg <davi...@LineOne.net> wrote:
>>
>> Only a few Luftwaffe aircraft had official names other than their
>> factory names.
>>
>> Each factory was given a block of numbers (i.e. ME-108. 109. 110 etc)
>> and they put their own factory names in from of them.
>
>
>Correct. For a list of numbers, you may refer to my page at
>
> http://www.designation-systems.net/non-us/germany.html
Thats a very incomplete listing. My list for my Master's Thesis has
over 500 designations including overlaps where the same number was
used by two different companies, rare but it happened.
Theres also a disputable thing about missiles. Some rockets did have
letter/number designations. I.E. the C-2 (Waterfall) was one and the
Hs-117 was another (both SAM's). You also had the problem of more
than one design carrying the same V number. The Fi103 and FZG-76
(which was bigger than the Fi-103) were both called V-1's. They
looked so similar the average pilot couldn't tell them apart so I
guess its a moot point????? Then you have smart gravety bombs like
the FX-1400 (Fritz-X) that sounded like aircraft and glider bombs like
the BV-246 that had AC designations.
THOM
Gordon
>>
>Thats a very incomplete listing. My list for my Master's Thesis has
>over 500 designations
Thom, would you consider letting me see that? It sounds fascinating!
v/r
Gordon
Stormbirds.com/recon
Andreas Parsch
> On Wed, 16 Jan 2002 09:24:30 +0100, Andreas Parsch <apa...@gmx.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Thom wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 12 Jan 2002 17:45:39 +0000, dg <davi...@LineOne.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Only a few Luftwaffe aircraft had official names other than their
>>> factory names.
>>>
>>> Each factory was given a block of numbers (i.e. ME-108. 109. 110
>>> etc) and they put their own factory names in from of them.
>>
>>
>>Correct. For a list of numbers, you may refer to my page at
>>
>> http://www.designation-systems.net/non-us/germany.html
> Thats a very incomplete listing. My list for my Master's Thesis has
> over 500 designations including overlaps where the same number was
> used by two different companies, rare but it happened.
So I'm about 100 numbers short ;-(!
Can you provide me with a copy of your list (e.g. scan -> e-mail)? That
would be great! Thanks!
Andreas
Andreas Parsch
> I would be inclined to think that AC having Bf in front of them, did
> change but new ones did. Example: Bf-109A, B, C and then Me-109D, E,
> F etc etc.
That's not what all my sources say - they are very explicit about
Bf-109E, F, G, etc.
>
> Remember that that same thing happened with Focke-Wolf when Fat Herman
> had Kurt Tanks' name put on all his designs after a certain date but
> that didn't change the old ones. The FW-190, FW-200 etc didn't become
> the Ta-190, Ta-200 but you did see productions runs of the Ta-152,
> Ta-154 and the like.
Yes, but Ta-152 was so named from the beginning - AFAIK there was never
an Fw-152, -154, etc.
Andreas
Emmanuel Gustin
news:a2d1cd$buh$2...@news.online.de...
Thom wrote:
> > I would be inclined to think that AC having Bf in front of them, did
> > change but new ones did. Example: Bf-109A, B, C and then Me-109D, E,
> > F etc etc.
This was the belief adhered to by Allied observers during WWII,
despite the fact that, as one author commented (John WR Taylor?
I forgot), "we were ankle-deep in shot-down Bf 109 nameplates."
It is incorrect.
> That's not what all my sources say - they are very explicit about
> Bf-109E, F, G, etc.
In this nitpicking discussion, could you please drop the dash?
While "Bf 109" or "Me 109" are both acceptable, "Bf-109"
or "Me-109" diverge from the normal practice. Dashes can
be important; witness the big difference between an F4F and
an F-4F!
That said: As far as I know both Bf 109 and Me 109 are
found in wartime German documents. If you want to pick
a 'most official' version, the logical one is the version on
the aircraft nameplate itself; AFAIK there it was written
Bf 109 even for later models.
> Yes, but Ta-152 was so named from the beginning - AFAIK
> there was never an Fw-152, -154, etc.
Just so, but I think that you are seeking a logical pattern
where there was none. It was just a recognition of Tank's
political and industrial clout and his success as designer.
In the case of Focke-Wulf, George Wulf had died in the
early 1930s in an accident, and Heinrich Focke had switched
his attention to the development of helicopters in a new
company since 1933.
--
Emmanuel Gustin <gus...@NoSpam.uia.ac.be>
Military Aircraft Database: http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/
Gordon
>> change but new ones did. Example: Bf-109A, B, C and then Me-109D, E,
>> F etc etc.
>
>That's not what all my sources say - they are very explicit about
>Bf-109E, F, G, etc.
Both the 8-109 and 8-110 were produced throughout their service lives as
"Bf"-prefixed aircraft. The preponderance of evidence points toward their never
being an official change in their designations, even after the Bf - to - Me
changeover. There are subtle traces of "Me-109" on various documents and ID
plates, but its clear from wartime German documents that the name was /never/
changed to Me-109.
v/r
Gordon
PS, I know books don't agree on this issue. That isn't my concern -- books do
not represent the facts in a lot of cases and this is one of them.
Andreas Parsch
> "Andreas Parsch" <apa...@gmx.net> wrote in message
> news:a2d1cd$buh$2...@news.online.de...
>
>> That's not what all my sources say - they are very explicit about
>> Bf-109E, F, G, etc.
>
> In this nitpicking discussion, could you please drop the dash?
> While "Bf 109" or "Me 109" are both acceptable, "Bf-109"
> or "Me-109" diverge from the normal practice. Dashes can
> be important; witness the big difference between an F4F and
> an F-4F!
>
Ok, sorry about the dash :-)! I know that the designations were
normally written without it, but because they were used in the ongoing
discussion, I didn't want to introduce second "theater of discussion"
;-).
Andreas
Gordon
>Ok, sorry about the dash :-)! I know that the designations were
>normally written without it, but because they were used in the ongoing
>discussion, I didn't want to introduce second "theater of discussion"
>;-).
>
>Andreas
>
>
>
Same with me :) LOL
v/r
Gordon