A-10: Gulf War
ttel...@mail.phoenix.net
<Snip>
> * AH-64s accounted for more kills during Desert Storm than the A-10 and
> M-1 Abrams combined.
<Snip>
> Should anyone have any questions about this, please feel free to email
> me directly.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bryan Walker
> Simulations Producer
> Domark Software
No, I think not.
I have a great deal of trouble with *THAT* particular claim. Especially
since the Army after action report on what vehicles were killed by what
after the Gulf War listed the supreme vehicle killer to be the 120mm APFSDS,
followed by the TOW and 25mm chain gun.
The AH-64 was credited with having killed 500 tanks, 120 APC, 120
artillery pieces, 10 helicopters, 10 fixed wing aircraft, and helping to
capture 4,500 troops in the Gulf War.
I don't have mt copy of the official Gulf Air War survey -- it's own loan
to a friend -- but according to other books of mine the A-10 fired between
4,800 and 5,013 of the 5,500 maverick missiles used in the War.
The A-10 drivers claimed 1,000 tanks, 2,000 other vehicles, 1,200
artillery pieces and two helicopters air-to-air.
Assuming 1/2 of the Mavericks fired by A-10's missed, and 1/2 of the
remainder went after bunkers and trucks, that still gives the A-10 a
combined armored vehicle/artillery kill number on the order of 1,200-1,254.
Considerably higher than the AH-64, and that does not even include the
effects of all the dumb and cluster bombs dropped and 30mm cannon fired.
I'm afraid your looseness with the numbers underminds your whole
arguement.
Mark Van Alstine
In article <NEWTNews.8393868...@dialin.phoenix.net>,
ttel...@mail.phoenix.net wrote:
> <Snip>
>
> > * AH-64s accounted for more kills during Desert Storm than the A-10 and
> > M-1 Abrams combined.
>
> <Snip>
>
> > Should anyone have any questions about this, please feel free to email
> > me directly.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Bryan Walker
> > Simulations Producer
> > Domark Software
>
>
> No, I think not.
>
> I have a great deal of trouble with *THAT* particular claim. Especially
> since the Army after action report on what vehicles were killed by what
> after the Gulf War listed the supreme vehicle killer to be the 120mm APFSDS,
> followed by the TOW and 25mm chain gun.
>
> The AH-64 was credited with having killed 500 tanks, 120 APC, 120
> artillery pieces, 10 helicopters, 10 fixed wing aircraft, and helping to
> capture 4,500 troops in the Gulf War.
"...U.S. Army aircraft fired all but 189 of the over 3,000 Hellfires
expended during combat. Hellfire was the Army's biggest killer of armored
vehicles during Desert Storm." (_Gulf War Air Power Survey, Vol IV_ p.81.)
> I don't have mt copy of the official Gulf Air War survey -- it's own loan
> to a friend -- but according to other books of mine the A-10 fired between
> 4,800 and 5,013 of the 5,500 maverick missiles used in the War.
"...A-10s fired 4,801 Maverick missles, which was more than 90 percent of
the Mavericks fired by Air Force aircraft...." (Ibid. p.54.) "...A total
of 5,255 AGM-65 B/D/G Mavericks were fired in Desert Storm...." (Ibid.
p.79.)
> The A-10 drivers claimed 1,000 tanks, 2,000 other vehicles, 1,200
> artillery pieces and two helicopters air-to-air.
"...In all, A-10s flew 8,084 sorties, striking 6,834 targets; 1,4041
sorties were identified as CAS missions. The aircraft averaged 2.37 hours
per flight and had a mission-capable rate of 87.7 percent." (Ibid.
pp.54-55.)
> Assuming 1/2 of the Mavericks fired by A-10's missed, and 1/2 of the
> remainder went after bunkers and trucks, that still gives the A-10 a
> combined armored vehicle/artillery kill number on the order of 1,200-1,254.
> Considerably higher than the AH-64, and that does not even include the
> effects of all the dumb and cluster bombs dropped and 30mm cannon fired.
Hmm. Considering that nearly all AH-64 sorties were CAS, it would be
likely they were against Iraqi ground units. If we assume a PK of 50% (I
think 90% is more realistic for Hellefire) that would mean around at least
1,500 Hellfires hit their targets. (I think it more likey around 2,500.)
Add to this the "kills" from the AH-64's 30mm gun. How many targets were
killed? How many were tracks and arty? (As compared to bunkers, trucks,
and soft targets?)
Good question, I dunno.... But only 740 for 3,000 Hellfires expended?
> I'm afraid your looseness with the numbers underminds your whole
> arguement.
Indeed. };->
Mark
posted/e-mailed
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Bryan Walker
> I'm afraid your looseness with the numbers underminds your whole
> arguement.<
It's been said that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Unfortunately, your post tends to support that.
One of my additional duties during Desert Shield and Storm was as the
Assistant S-2 (Intelligence)/Threat Officer for our battalion. Constant
review of aircraft gun-camera footage at all levels of command
determined that roughly one engagement out of three by A-10s against a
vehicular target resulted in a good kill. This number held up to
scrutiny, and went on to the the "battlefield calculus" modifier applied
to all A-10 Bomb Damage Assessments by the intelligence community. In
addition, a considerable number of A-10 "kills" were later determined to
have been made against targets already dead, or decoys. This is one of
the primary reasons the A-10 posted the lowest confirmed kill-per-sortie
rate of any US tactical aircraft of the war.
Mark Van Alstine's well-spoken rebuttal to your post was reasonably
accurate on a number of fronts, and his logic is certainly sound.
However, I'd like to point out that many of the AH-64 missions weren't
in CAS roles, but rather "deep attack" missions, ranging far ahead of
the ground forces' avenues of approach and weeding out any pockets of
resistance.
Mr. Alstine's point about the rocket and cannon kills by the AH-64 were
also valid. These were indeed the weapons of choice against "soft"
targets (anything less than a tank) and killed at least as many vehicles
as the Hellfire. The cannon was the primary player in one of my own
most memorable missions, killing two Republican Guards' Mi-8s over the
Euphrates river, with the visibility running about 500 meters unaided.
On that note, the last full day of the Ground War saw atrocious weather
over much of the battlefield. The only aircraft capable of effectively
supporting the ground forces at that time was the AH-64, and it did just
that supremely well.
I knew my earlier post was going to ruffle some feathers, particularly
those who'd bought off on the hype surrounding the A-10's Gulf War
performance. I certainly don't begrudge anyone their opinions, but my
numbers and assertions are correct, having the benefit of professional
experience behind them.
As always, I'll be happy to entertain any questions via email.
Fubar2X
<br...@domark.com> wrote:
> * AH-64s accounted for more kills during Desert Storm than the A-10 and
> M-1 Abrams combined.
Uhmm, the GAO credited the AH-64 with 278 tank kills in Desert Storm. The
CENTCOM rule of thumb for most laser guided weapons ( bombs, Hellfires,
etc ) was to divide claims by about two, so the above looks about right
for 500-600 claimed tank kills.
If this is more than the combined total of the M-1 and the A-10, that
means that the total tank kill by all of the Abrams, Apaches, and Warthogs
was around 500.
So, what weapons systems do you think killed those OTHER 3000 Iraqi tanks?
Termites, maybe? or were they all F-111 kills ( yay, 'Varks! ).
It has always seemed to me that a reasonable estimate for Mavericks,
Hellfires, 120mm cannon rounds, etc. is that about 1/4 of them were
actually fired at tanks, and the kill rate was 35-40%. That would mean
about 10-12 shots per tank kill. If each of the 2000 Abrams in Desert
Storm fired on average 4 rounds apiece, that'd be about 700-800 tanks
killed, which is likely the highest total for any weapons system.
Mavericks fired from A-10's would get 450 kills, and Hellfires from
Apaches 275, in agreement with the GAO numbers. F-111F's dropped over
2500 500-pound LGB's in the tank-plinking raids; if half of them were
dropped on tanks, with a 45% kill rate, that's 600 kills, probably the
second highest kill total to that of the M-1 Abrams.
Fubar2X