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A Quora defending Neville chamberlain’s decision to appease Hitler
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a425couple
May 22, 2023, 7:39:47 PM5/22/23
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Tom Williams
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Avid reader, writer, political junkie, student of history Updated Sat
Do you think Neville chamberlain’s decision to appease Hitler made sense
(in the moment) as he wanted to spare human lives and prevent another
destructive war?
It was exactly the correct decision at the time and with what was known.
The British military, other than the Royal Navy, was ill-equipped to
fight a war with Germany and the British people wanted no part of it.
Hitler was open about his refusal to adhere to many of the terms of the
Treaty of Versailles. Soon after he became Chancellor of Germany in 1933
he began to re-arm the country, breaking the restrictions mandated by
the treaty. In 1936, he sent German troops into the Rhineland and in
March 1938 he joined Germany and Austria.
As a result of national boundary changes from the First World War, three
million Germans found themselves now living in a part of Czechoslovakia
known as the Sudetenland. The German population there had always been
against this situation and there was a lot of social friction between
them and the Czechoslovakian authorities.
Adolph Hitler was aware of this and vowed to reunite these Germans under
the German national flag and in preparation, stationed troops along the
Czech border. Edvard Benes, the leader of Czechoslovakia, knew that if
Germany was given the Sudetenland, most of the Czech defenses would be
rendered useless.
From Neville Chamberlain’s notes;
“He (Hitler) said that he had from his youth been obsessed with the
racial theory and he felt that the Germans were one, but he had drawn a
distinction between the possible and the impossible and he recognized
that there are places where Germans are where it is impossible to bring
them into the Reich; but where they are on the frontier, it is a
different matter, and he is himself concerned with ten millions of
Germans, three millions of whom are in Czechoslovakia. He felt therefore
that those Germans should come into the Reich. They wanted to and he was
determined that they should come in.
It was impossible that Czechoslovakia should remain like a spearhead in
the side of Germany.
So I said “Hold on a minute; there is one point on which I want to be
clear and I will explain why: you say that the three million Sudeten
Germans must be included in the Reich; would you be satisfied with that
and is there nothing more that you want? I ask because there are many
people who think that is not all; that you wish to dismember
Czechoslovakia.”
He then launched into a long speech; he was out for a racial unity and
he did not want a lot of Czechs, all he wanted was Sudeten Germans.”
I was then going on to some further questions on the subject when he
said: “But all this seems to be academic; I want to get down to
realities. Three hundred Sudetens have been killed and things of that
kind cannot go on; the thing has got to be settled at once: I am
determined to settle it: I do not care whether there is a world war or
not: I am determined to settle it and to settle it soon and I am
prepared to risk a world war rather than allow this to drag on.”
To that I replied: “If the Fuehrer is determined to settle this matter
by force without waiting even for a discussion between ourselves to take
place what did he let me come here for? I have wasted my time.”
Chamberlain’s flight to Berchtesgaden was followed by another to
Godesberg a week later and then another to Munich on 29 September. At
Munich, Chamberlain got an international agreement that Hitler should
have the Sudetenland in exchange for Germany making no further demands
for land in Europe. Chamberlain said it was ‘Peace for our time’. Hitler
said he had ‘No more territorial demands to make in Europe.
On 1 October German troops occupied the Sudetenland: Hitler had got what
he wanted without firing a shot.
©Central Press/Getty Images
General Hastings Ismay, was the Secretary of the Committee of Imperial
Defence, (effective 1 August 1938) and was deeply involved in the
negotiations between Chamberlain and Hitler.
Conclusion of Note from General Ismay to the British Cabinet sent on
September 20th, 1938;
15. The broad conclusions of this Note may be summarized as follows;
(a) A German absorption of Czechoslovakia will enhance her military
prestige, increase her war potential and probably enable her to dispose
of stronger land forces against France and ourselves than she can do at
present.
(b) So far as air power is concerned, Germany may be able to maintain
her lead over the Franco-British Air Forces in air striking power. On
the other hand, it is open to us, provided that we make the necessary
effort, to catch her up, or at least greatly reduce her lead, in the
matter of defence (both active and passive) against air attack. By so
doing we shall have heavily insured ourselves against the greatest
danger to which we are present exposed: indeed by substantially reducing
Germany’s only chance of a rapid decision, we shall have provided a
strong deterrent against her making the attempt.
(c) It follows, therefore, that, from the military point of view, time
is in our favour, and that, if war with Germany has to come, it would be
better to fight her in say 6-12 months’ time, than to accept the present
challenge.”
At the time Chamberlain signed the Munich Agreement, he had agreed to a
huge increase in military spending in preparation for war. He was aware
from the situation outlined to him by General Ismay, that Czechoslovakia
was already lost, and that war was inevitable.
Six months later, in March 1939, German troops took over all of
Czechoslovakia. Poland was to be the next most likely target for Hitler
and Chamberlain made an agreement with the Poles to defend them if
Germany invaded. Hitler did not believe Britain would go to war over
Poland, having failed to do so over Czechoslovakia, so he sent troops
into Poland in September 1939. Two days later, Britain declared war on
Germany.
Chamberlain continued on as Prime Minister until May 1940 when he
resigned and Winston Churchill, a critic of appeasement, assumed power.
Chamberlain died of cancer in November 1940, and he was vilified for
appeasement in general and for his actions in September 1938 in
particular long after his death and the conclusion of the war.
8.8K views
View 31 upvotes
Follow
Avid reader, writer, political junkie, student of history Updated Sat
Do you think Neville chamberlain’s decision to appease Hitler made sense
(in the moment) as he wanted to spare human lives and prevent another
destructive war?
It was exactly the correct decision at the time and with what was known.
The British military, other than the Royal Navy, was ill-equipped to
fight a war with Germany and the British people wanted no part of it.
Hitler was open about his refusal to adhere to many of the terms of the
Treaty of Versailles. Soon after he became Chancellor of Germany in 1933
he began to re-arm the country, breaking the restrictions mandated by
the treaty. In 1936, he sent German troops into the Rhineland and in
March 1938 he joined Germany and Austria.
As a result of national boundary changes from the First World War, three
million Germans found themselves now living in a part of Czechoslovakia
known as the Sudetenland. The German population there had always been
against this situation and there was a lot of social friction between
them and the Czechoslovakian authorities.
Adolph Hitler was aware of this and vowed to reunite these Germans under
the German national flag and in preparation, stationed troops along the
Czech border. Edvard Benes, the leader of Czechoslovakia, knew that if
Germany was given the Sudetenland, most of the Czech defenses would be
rendered useless.
From Neville Chamberlain’s notes;
“He (Hitler) said that he had from his youth been obsessed with the
racial theory and he felt that the Germans were one, but he had drawn a
distinction between the possible and the impossible and he recognized
that there are places where Germans are where it is impossible to bring
them into the Reich; but where they are on the frontier, it is a
different matter, and he is himself concerned with ten millions of
Germans, three millions of whom are in Czechoslovakia. He felt therefore
that those Germans should come into the Reich. They wanted to and he was
determined that they should come in.
It was impossible that Czechoslovakia should remain like a spearhead in
the side of Germany.
So I said “Hold on a minute; there is one point on which I want to be
clear and I will explain why: you say that the three million Sudeten
Germans must be included in the Reich; would you be satisfied with that
and is there nothing more that you want? I ask because there are many
people who think that is not all; that you wish to dismember
Czechoslovakia.”
He then launched into a long speech; he was out for a racial unity and
he did not want a lot of Czechs, all he wanted was Sudeten Germans.”
I was then going on to some further questions on the subject when he
said: “But all this seems to be academic; I want to get down to
realities. Three hundred Sudetens have been killed and things of that
kind cannot go on; the thing has got to be settled at once: I am
determined to settle it: I do not care whether there is a world war or
not: I am determined to settle it and to settle it soon and I am
prepared to risk a world war rather than allow this to drag on.”
To that I replied: “If the Fuehrer is determined to settle this matter
by force without waiting even for a discussion between ourselves to take
place what did he let me come here for? I have wasted my time.”
Chamberlain’s flight to Berchtesgaden was followed by another to
Godesberg a week later and then another to Munich on 29 September. At
Munich, Chamberlain got an international agreement that Hitler should
have the Sudetenland in exchange for Germany making no further demands
for land in Europe. Chamberlain said it was ‘Peace for our time’. Hitler
said he had ‘No more territorial demands to make in Europe.
On 1 October German troops occupied the Sudetenland: Hitler had got what
he wanted without firing a shot.
©Central Press/Getty Images
General Hastings Ismay, was the Secretary of the Committee of Imperial
Defence, (effective 1 August 1938) and was deeply involved in the
negotiations between Chamberlain and Hitler.
Conclusion of Note from General Ismay to the British Cabinet sent on
September 20th, 1938;
15. The broad conclusions of this Note may be summarized as follows;
(a) A German absorption of Czechoslovakia will enhance her military
prestige, increase her war potential and probably enable her to dispose
of stronger land forces against France and ourselves than she can do at
present.
(b) So far as air power is concerned, Germany may be able to maintain
her lead over the Franco-British Air Forces in air striking power. On
the other hand, it is open to us, provided that we make the necessary
effort, to catch her up, or at least greatly reduce her lead, in the
matter of defence (both active and passive) against air attack. By so
doing we shall have heavily insured ourselves against the greatest
danger to which we are present exposed: indeed by substantially reducing
Germany’s only chance of a rapid decision, we shall have provided a
strong deterrent against her making the attempt.
(c) It follows, therefore, that, from the military point of view, time
is in our favour, and that, if war with Germany has to come, it would be
better to fight her in say 6-12 months’ time, than to accept the present
challenge.”
At the time Chamberlain signed the Munich Agreement, he had agreed to a
huge increase in military spending in preparation for war. He was aware
from the situation outlined to him by General Ismay, that Czechoslovakia
was already lost, and that war was inevitable.
Six months later, in March 1939, German troops took over all of
Czechoslovakia. Poland was to be the next most likely target for Hitler
and Chamberlain made an agreement with the Poles to defend them if
Germany invaded. Hitler did not believe Britain would go to war over
Poland, having failed to do so over Czechoslovakia, so he sent troops
into Poland in September 1939. Two days later, Britain declared war on
Germany.
Chamberlain continued on as Prime Minister until May 1940 when he
resigned and Winston Churchill, a critic of appeasement, assumed power.
Chamberlain died of cancer in November 1940, and he was vilified for
appeasement in general and for his actions in September 1938 in
particular long after his death and the conclusion of the war.
8.8K views
View 31 upvotes
a425couple
May 22, 2023, 7:42:48 PM5/22/23
to
On 5/22/23 16:38, a425couple wrote:
> Tom Williams
> Follow
> Avid reader, writer, political junkie, student of history Updated Sat
>
> Do you think Neville chamberlain’s decision to appease Hitler made sense
> (in the moment) as he wanted to spare human lives and prevent another
> destructive war?
> It was exactly the correct decision at the time and with what was known.
contra view
> Tom Williams
> Follow
> Avid reader, writer, political junkie, student of history Updated Sat
>
> Do you think Neville chamberlain’s decision to appease Hitler made sense
> (in the moment) as he wanted to spare human lives and prevent another
> destructive war?
> It was exactly the correct decision at the time and with what was known.
Ron S. Friedman
· Fri
Appeasing dictators who had already proven to be untrastworthy is not a
good strategy.
Yes, Chamberlain bought some time to allow Britain to increase its
defence budget.
But in that bought time, (October 1938– September 1939) Germany
increased its military capacity by a lot more, especially by taking all
the weapon factories in Czechoslovakia in tact. (In a 1938 war, those
factories would have likely been destroyed.)
Moreover, any opposition to Hitler in 1938 in Germany faded away.
Including the Army's planned a coup. (Oster conspiracy) Thanks to
Munich, no serious coup attempt was possible until 1944.
—-
At the end, appeasing Hitler had eliminated the chance of a successful
coup against Hitler in 1938. And resulted in much bigger war with tens
of million of death. Far more deveststing than a 1938 war could have
looked like.
Chamberlain deserve his bad reputation.
Profile photo for Ivan Traminiev
Ivan Traminiev
· Sat
How easy ist is to speak with hindsight. At the end of WWII in order to
give Czechowlowakia more defensible borders it was given the Sudeten
reagion a geraln ragion peopled with geramns who had not been asked if
thsy wanted to become germans and had not been asked if they wanted to
become Czcoslowak…
(more)
Profile photo for Tom Williams
Rupert Baines
Good points and it read not just him who was wary of war
Profile photo for Brett Flournoy
Brett Flournoy
· Fri
yeah, what a putz. We have all met bullies on the schoolyard. Except
this moron maybe.
Profile photo for Ron S. Friedman
Tom Williams
Yeah, but you don’t confront a huge bully upfront. You pretend to defer
to him, then, when he’s not looking, sneak up behind with a bat and
knock him out.
Profile photo for Rupert Baines
Rupert Baines
· Fri
Chamberlain was indeed vilified at the time but the consensus of modern
historians is here did ac good job: “hope for peace, prepare for war” He
invested massively in building up the army and air force it is
legitimate to say he gambled that surrendering Sudevtland to give a
change due Poland, France a…
(more)
Profile photo for Tom Williams
Profile photo for John Weatherby
John Weatherby
· Sat
It wasn’t just Chamberlin though. Italy and France were major players
here. There was a belief in the league of nations and diplomacy would
prevent wars. They had the wrong assumption that all evidence pointed
against that given in and helping to create ethno states would avoid
another war. A good b…
(more)
Profile photo for Rupert Baines
Rupert Baines
That’s fair. thanks.
Profile photo for Brett Flournoy
Brett Flournoy
· Fri
oh yeah, right. Nice job Neville.
Jim Wilkins
May 23, 2023, 7:51:15 AM5/23/23
to
"a425couple" wrote in message news:14TaM.3797867$GNG9.3...@fx18.iad...
On 5/22/23 16:38, a425couple wrote:
> Tom Williams
> Follow
> Avid reader, writer, political junkie, student of history Updated Sat
>
> Do you think Neville chamberlain’s decision to appease Hitler made sense
> (in the moment) as he wanted to spare human lives and prevent another
> destructive war?
> It was exactly the correct decision at the time and with what was known.
----------------------
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brinkmanship
Both sides misjudged each other, Hitler would rather have had Britain as an
ally fighting Marxist Communism, which Fascism had angrily split away from.
Stalin also mistakenly believed he could successfully accommodate Hitler,
but ultimately Hitler's misjudgements were the worst.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_propaganda_and_the_United_Kingdom
"British rule in India was held up as a model for how the Germans would rule
Eastern Europe."
I think the record for extreme risk taking among world leaders belongs to
Teddy Roosevelt, who personally killed wild cougars with a knife.
https://www.boone-crockett.org/adventures-archives-theodore-roosevelts-worlds-record-cougar
On 5/22/23 16:38, a425couple wrote:
> Tom Williams
> Follow
> Avid reader, writer, political junkie, student of history Updated Sat
>
> Do you think Neville chamberlain’s decision to appease Hitler made sense
> (in the moment) as he wanted to spare human lives and prevent another
> destructive war?
> It was exactly the correct decision at the time and with what was known.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brinkmanship
Both sides misjudged each other, Hitler would rather have had Britain as an
ally fighting Marxist Communism, which Fascism had angrily split away from.
Stalin also mistakenly believed he could successfully accommodate Hitler,
but ultimately Hitler's misjudgements were the worst.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_propaganda_and_the_United_Kingdom
"British rule in India was held up as a model for how the Germans would rule
Eastern Europe."
I think the record for extreme risk taking among world leaders belongs to
Teddy Roosevelt, who personally killed wild cougars with a knife.
https://www.boone-crockett.org/adventures-archives-theodore-roosevelts-worlds-record-cougar
Dean Markley
May 23, 2023, 10:13:55 AM5/23/23
to
Jim Wilkins
May 23, 2023, 7:13:32 PM5/23/23
to
"Dean Markley" wrote in message
news:09ebcf56-9c1d-4c10...@googlegroups.com...
Chamberlain was wrong. It didn't matter that Britain might be unprepared
for a land war. After all, France was right there too. And the Czechs
would have fought if they knew the French and British were going to help. I
even suspect Poland would have helped. All Chamberlain did was betray the
Czechs and give Germany time to build impressive forces. Appeasement never
works.
---------------------
Most world leaders guessed wrong and blundered into the war. Hitler didn't
intend to fight Britain or especially the USA, despite the aggressive
Neutrality Patrols which he ignored. Mussolini invaded Greece and got his
butt kicked. Stalin believed the Molotov-Von Ribbentrop Pact would protect
him. FDR was away at a conference with Churchill when his strong-willed
subordinates imposed harsher oil embargo conditions on Japan than he
(supposedly) had intended, then he chose not to unilaterally relax them,
giving Japan little choice but to capture other oil supplies. Japanese
leaders allowed ambitious junior officers in China to make escalatory
attacks that Tokyo felt obligated to validate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrality_Patrol
"Roosevelt's initiation of the Neutrality Patrol, which in fact also
escorted British ships, as well as orders to U.S. Navy destroyers first to
actively report U-boats, then "shoot on sight", meant American neutrality
was honored more in the breach than observance."
Some weren't so eager. Lindbergh's strong participation in US preparedness
plus his (spy) mission to fly the major powers' best fighters including the
Bf-109 showed him that contrary to FDR's opinion we weren't yet ready to
fight, so he resigned his Reserve commission and reluctantly spoke for
America First in the hope of postponing our involvement. Hap Arnold
proof-read his first speech.
Far from being a pacifist, he helped decide how far to push the
challengingly advanced tech of the B-29 program. After getting Ford's B-24
production line running smoothly he flew 50 combat missions in the Pacific
as a "civilian consultant", and developed the high speed, high altitude
bail-out system. In a Mayo Clinic altitude chamber Lindbergh took himself to
the equivalent of 48,000 feet. He was qualified because before the war he
had collaborated with his neighbor Dr Alexis Carrell on the first successful
heart-lung machine.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6592355/
"He also, with the pioneer aviator/engineer Charles Lindbergh, in the 1930s
developed a pump that could keep whole organs alive and oxygenated."
news:09ebcf56-9c1d-4c10...@googlegroups.com...
Chamberlain was wrong. It didn't matter that Britain might be unprepared
for a land war. After all, France was right there too. And the Czechs
would have fought if they knew the French and British were going to help. I
even suspect Poland would have helped. All Chamberlain did was betray the
Czechs and give Germany time to build impressive forces. Appeasement never
works.
Most world leaders guessed wrong and blundered into the war. Hitler didn't
intend to fight Britain or especially the USA, despite the aggressive
Neutrality Patrols which he ignored. Mussolini invaded Greece and got his
butt kicked. Stalin believed the Molotov-Von Ribbentrop Pact would protect
him. FDR was away at a conference with Churchill when his strong-willed
subordinates imposed harsher oil embargo conditions on Japan than he
(supposedly) had intended, then he chose not to unilaterally relax them,
giving Japan little choice but to capture other oil supplies. Japanese
leaders allowed ambitious junior officers in China to make escalatory
attacks that Tokyo felt obligated to validate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrality_Patrol
"Roosevelt's initiation of the Neutrality Patrol, which in fact also
escorted British ships, as well as orders to U.S. Navy destroyers first to
actively report U-boats, then "shoot on sight", meant American neutrality
was honored more in the breach than observance."
Some weren't so eager. Lindbergh's strong participation in US preparedness
plus his (spy) mission to fly the major powers' best fighters including the
Bf-109 showed him that contrary to FDR's opinion we weren't yet ready to
fight, so he resigned his Reserve commission and reluctantly spoke for
America First in the hope of postponing our involvement. Hap Arnold
proof-read his first speech.
Far from being a pacifist, he helped decide how far to push the
challengingly advanced tech of the B-29 program. After getting Ford's B-24
production line running smoothly he flew 50 combat missions in the Pacific
as a "civilian consultant", and developed the high speed, high altitude
bail-out system. In a Mayo Clinic altitude chamber Lindbergh took himself to
the equivalent of 48,000 feet. He was qualified because before the war he
had collaborated with his neighbor Dr Alexis Carrell on the first successful
heart-lung machine.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6592355/
"He also, with the pioneer aviator/engineer Charles Lindbergh, in the 1930s
developed a pump that could keep whole organs alive and oxygenated."
Jim Wilkins
May 27, 2023, 5:14:49 PM5/27/23
to
"DAN" wrote in message news:t0c47ip7eerac9hdu...@4ax.com...
FWIW, the view of Edouard Daladier, the French premier, when he landed back
in
Paris and the populace feted him like a hero:
Ah les cons! s'ils savaient... (what morons! If they only knew)
-----------------
https://www.frenchasyoulikeit.com/french-swear-words/
FWIW, the view of Edouard Daladier, the French premier, when he landed back
in
Paris and the populace feted him like a hero:
Ah les cons! s'ils savaient... (what morons! If they only knew)
-----------------
https://www.frenchasyoulikeit.com/french-swear-words/
Jim Wilkins
May 27, 2023, 6:30:37 PM5/27/23
to
"DAN" wrote in message news:t0c47ip7eerac9hdu...@4ax.com...
By the way it is saddening to see the number of idiots at all level who go
in
the media to recommend that Ukraine gives in to Vladimir-the-dourak.
---------------------------
https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/88459-idiots
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