Seaplane landing on open sea
Bernardz
the open sea and I was wondering if this type of landing is considered
as being very dangerous?
--
Life is always changing, that is what makes it interesting.
Observations of Bernard - No 72
Eugene Griessel
>I was reading that Sunderland Flying Boats were not allowed to land in
>the open sea and I was wondering if this type of landing is considered
>as being very dangerous?
Where did you read that? Flying boats regularly landed in the open
sea during SAR missions, providing the sea was calm enough, during
WW2. (Not something I'd recommend in a Lerwick though!) But I cannot
recall ever reading that Sunderlands were forbidden. Certainly the
ones the SAAF flew until 1956 fairly regularly landed at sea.
Eugene L Griessel www.dynagen.co.za/eugene
He who hesitates is probably right.
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
Eugene Griessel <eugene.@dynagen..co..za> wrote:
>Bernardz <Berna...@REMOVEhotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I was reading that Sunderland Flying Boats were not allowed to land in
>>the open sea and I was wondering if this type of landing is considered
>>as being very dangerous?
>
>Where did you read that? Flying boats regularly landed in the open
>sea during SAR missions, providing the sea was calm enough, during
>WW2. (Not something I'd recommend in a Lerwick though!) But I cannot
>recall ever reading that Sunderlands were forbidden. Certainly the
>ones the SAAF flew until 1956 fairly regularly landed at sea.
IIRC they were discouraged from landing in open waters - North Atlantic
- to rescue survivors. This was partially because of risk on landing
(water being incompressible to a high degree and also tending to have
waves, both of which can be bad things when trying to land on the stuff),
partially beacuse of the risk of falling victim to the submarine hiding
under the lifeboat or bods-in-the-water, waiting for a rescue attempt to
arrive, partially because with large numbers of extra bodies on board
the Sunderland might not be able to take off again (this happened -
on of the ships my father served on ended up towing a Sunderland back
to harbour [1]). The main reason, however, was that it stopped he
Sunderland doing its job - scouting ahead of convoys and keeping an
eye open for submarines moving in. There was a shortage of long-range
aircraft. Anything which put those aircraft at extra risk (and take
off and landing in open water did) or made them less operationally
effective (as sitting on the water instead of being in the air)
was not likely to commend itself.
[1] Another one - an ML in the channel - did the same with a Walrus
which had developed engine trouble
--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)
Eugene Griessel
Yep - I buy that. One of the most heartless = possibly apocryphal -
tales I think I ever heard - and I'm making up the details as I go
along, so don't hold me to them - was a crew somewhere in the North
Sea awating rescue when a Walrus appeared and landed nearby. It
taxied over and the pilot called "are you the crew of Lancaster P for
Peter?" to which they replied "No, we're the crew of Halifax F for
Freddie" upon which the Shagbat skipper yelled back - "sorry, wrong
dinghy" and promptly turned into the wind and took off again. IIRC he
did have the courtesy to call SAR HQ with the coordinates and they
were picked up some time later - but imagine the feeling! If it's
true of course!
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
I guess it could have happened if there was already an RML, HSL
or another aircraft on its way to that particular batch of survivors
and within a few 10s of minutes of arrival. ASR crews were generally
keen to get any live bodies[1] they could, though, and leaving people
until later was fraught with problems in terms of getting them
inboard. You know this, of course.. (query - what procedures did
you use for getting folks out of the water - I presume the Mills
boom was deservedly forgotten by then..)
[1] the "another eight pairs of flying boots gone" comment from one
of the crew given in my father's book[2] refers.
[2] See http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/outside/book
Chapters 11 and 12 cover air-sea rescue work in the channel in 1943
and so might be of interest to some of the people frequenting this
group.
Larry Dighera
wrote in <cvkn00$br8l$1...@central.aber.ac.uk>::
>
>[2] See http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/outside/book
>Chapters 11 and 12 cover air-sea rescue work in the channel in 1943
>and so might be of interest to some of the people frequenting this
>group.
Does his book mention anything about the attempted rescue of Amy
Johnson who went down in the Thames estuary while ferrying an
aircraft?
Eugene Griessel
>inboard. You know this, of course.. (query - what procedures did
>you use for getting folks out of the water - I presume the Mills
>boom was deservedly forgotten by then..)
It depended - both on weather and state of survivors. Coming
alongside with a scramble net down was the method of choice when the
sea was fair and the survivors capable of swimming. In the worst
scenario we had divers go overboard and secure the survivor(s) in (a)
Robinsons(?) stretcher(s) which was then winched aboard via a boom.
This method was fraught with the possibility of killing the survivor
in really bad weather as the bloody stretcher (even with a number of
toughs hangning onto guy ropes to try and control the thing) became
really active and in danger of colliding with superstructure. I
remember a distinct lack of volunteers to be a survivor whenever this
particular method was tried. The deluxe method was having a chopper
to lift the blokes out of the hoggin and deposit them sweetly in the
well deck. But fairly unpractical a few hundred miles off shore.
In fact the SAAF once staged a very long range rescue by chopper
sometime in the eighties (Puma), 600 nautical miles South of Cape
Point but using a midway refueling point on a supply vessel. A
Russian seaman had slipped and fallen into the fish processing unit
aboard his trawler. In the process his skull had virtually been sawn
open. Despite the operation - carried out at the limit of the
choppers's endurance (virtually breathing fumes when they landed) and
heroic efforts by the medical team aboard the chopper and at the
hospital the sailor died three days later.
Eugene L Griessel www.dynagen.co.za/eugene
The basic delusion that men may be governed and yet be free.
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
He was working out of Newhaven and Littlehampton with the ASR
boats attached to HMS Agressive (Newhaven base). Thames Estuary
was well off his patch. It was before his time in ASR too -
in early 1941 he was a telegraphist in HMS Egret, which was just
finishing her time on East Coast convoys before going into the
Atlantic battle. I have no doubt that if Ms. Johnson had ferried
her aircraft anywhere near Egret she'd have been shot at,
just like any other aircraft which approached an east coast
convoy... Friendly aircraft don't seem to have been common in
that era (even before being shot at, that is..)
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
Eugene Griessel <eugene.@dynagen..co..za> wrote:
>a...@aber.ac.uk (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN) wrote:
>
>>inboard. You know this, of course.. (query - what procedures did
>>you use for getting folks out of the water - I presume the Mills
>>boom was deservedly forgotten by then..)
>
>It depended - both on weather and state of survivors. Coming
>alongside with a scramble net down was the method of choice when the
>sea was fair and the survivors capable of swimming. In the worst
>scenario we had divers go overboard and secure the survivor(s) in (a)
>Robinsons(?) stretcher(s) which was then winched aboard via a boom.
Sounds like a development of the approach they used in my father's
day, which was a bod in the water, a line from the boom and then
haul the survivor in using a line around them:
Quote: "I got him to the boom, down came a line. Easy now, reeve it under
his arm-pits, get his feet into the mesh of the netting. Leave him. Go for
the next one. So far, they were not soaked and too heavy to handle. As a
survivor came aboard, he was taken below, stripped, dried and given a
change of clothes. And of course, a tot.
In the water, things were not so easy. Some were able to paddle a little
and tried to rush the boom. I wasn't choosy about how I controlled them. A
boot in the face or on fingers that wouldn't let go, that established a
little reason."
>This method was fraught with the possibility of killing the survivor
>in really bad weather as the bloody stretcher (even with a number of
>toughs hangning onto guy ropes to try and control the thing) became
>really active and in danger of colliding with superstructure. I
>remember a distinct lack of volunteers to be a survivor whenever this
Understandably.
Helicopters really must have changed the whole game - though how
practical they'd be for wartime ASR when airspace was contested
(in WW2 and the channel, the FW-190 on his way back from a tip-
and-run scenario) has to be a worry.
>In fact the SAAF once staged a very long range rescue by chopper
>sometime in the eighties (Puma), 600 nautical miles South of Cape
>Point but using a midway refueling point on a supply vessel. A
>Russian seaman had slipped and fallen into the fish processing unit
>aboard his trawler. In the process his skull had virtually been sawn
>open. Despite the operation - carried out at the limit of the
>choppers's endurance (virtually breathing fumes when they landed) and
>heroic efforts by the medical team aboard the chopper and at the
>hospital the sailor died three days later.
Grim.
Richard Brooks
> I was reading that Sunderland Flying Boats were not allowed to land in
> the open sea and I was wondering if this type of landing is considered
> as being very dangerous?
There is a film clip where the crew of a Sunderland are being taken off onto
a ship. The narrator did state that if it get's too choppy then the
aircraft just can't take off again.
Richard.
patrick...@advmkt.com
discovered a mass of men floating in the Pacific. They were the
survivor of the Indianapolis. He wrote that they bent or broke the
rules to land on the sea and that the impact popped a lot of rivets
out. The crew stuck sharpened pencils into the holes to reduce the
leaks. They did not contemplate taking off again.
--Pat
Eugene Griessel
I believe that the restriction against open sea landing was on that
particular model of Catalina which was an amphibian. The hull
structure was weakened by the inclusion of wheel wells and there was
a concern that it could break in heavy seas.
Obviously there is a maximum sea state that any flying boat could
safely handle - and I suppose any pilot would be wary of putting down
at sea unless absolutely necessary.
Eugene L Griessel www.dynagen.co.za/eugene
Faith may be defined briefly
as an illogical belief
in the occurrence
of the improbable.
walt...@mindspring.com
where SA16s made open sea landings to pick bailed-out pilots. After 3
of the Albatri failed to get airborne again the unit CO finally forbade
open-sea landings as he was running out of hulls. Just a few years ago,
however, an F16 driver retrograding from Korea (ISTR) back to the
States was eating his lunch when he was run over from behind by a
tanker in the flight - 500 nm east of Japan! A JASDAF Kawanishi flying
boat made an open sea landing and rescued him - but that ship is
designed for the job, with 4 big Allison turboprops plus a fifth engine
that runs the blown flap system. Great idea!
Walt BJ
Eugene Griessel
>tanker in the flight - 500 nm east of Japan! A JASDAF Kawanishi flying
>boat made an open sea landing and rescued him - but that ship is
>designed for the job, with 4 big Allison turboprops plus a fifth engine
>that runs the blown flap system. Great idea!
I'd have to look it up - but wasn't one of its original design ASW
objectives the ability to alight on the sea and use a dipping sonar?
Seem to dimly recall something of that nature.
Eugene L Griessel www.dynagen.co.za/eugene
Age does not necessarily bring wisdom. Often, it merely changes simple
stupidity into arrogant conceit. It's only advantage, as I see it, is that
it spans CHANGE. A young person sees the world as a still picture.
Immutable. An old person has had his nose rubbed in changes and more
changes, and still more changes until he knows it is a moving picture
forever changing. He may not like it; he probably doesn't. But he knows
it's so, and knowing it is the first step in coping with it.
Eugene Griessel
>I was reading that Sunderland Flying Boats were not allowed to land in
>the open sea and I was wondering if this type of landing is considered
>as being very dangerous?
Ok - here's what an article in Air International of September 1981
says:
"other epic rescues followed, although eventually the practice had to
be discouraged as the Sunderlands too often sustained fatal damage
when alighting in heavy seas, or became "sitting ducks" for German
submarines."
The same article further states:
"Up to the middle of 1940 the greatest contribution made by the Short
boats was in spotting survivors of Allied vessels that had been
attacked, and either directing rescue vessels to the scene, or picking
them up from the open sea."
I guess when human lives are involved the following factors come into
play: Judgement of sea conditions becomes a little "iffy" with the
tendency to push the limits a little bit . Overloading the boat with
survivors - in the hope that "we'll make it" on take off. The
Sunderland was not exactly overpowered.
Eugene L Griessel www.dynagen.co.za/eugene
Illiterate? Write For Help
Eugene Griessel
>tanker in the flight - 500 nm east of Japan! A JASDAF Kawanishi flying
>boat made an open sea landing and rescued him - but that ship is
>designed for the job, with 4 big Allison turboprops plus a fifth engine
>that runs the blown flap system. Great idea!
I've just been reading up on those Shin Meiwa boats - they were
designed to operate in 10 foot swells in a 30 knot wind and trials
proved them capable of handling 14 foot waves!
Eugene L Griessel www.dynagen.co.za/eugene
Affianced. Fitted with the ankle-ring for the ball and chain.
Dave Kearton
news:421ecf1e...@news.uunet.co.za
| walt...@mindspring.com wrote:
|
|| tanker in the flight - 500 nm east of Japan! A JASDAF Kawanishi
|| flying boat made an open sea landing and rescued him - but that ship
|| is designed for the job, with 4 big Allison turboprops plus a fifth
|| engine that runs the blown flap system. Great idea!
|
| I've just been reading up on those Shin Meiwa boats - they were
| designed to operate in 10 foot swells in a 30 knot wind and trials
| proved them capable of handling 14 foot waves!
|
| Eugene L Griessel www.dynagen.co.za/eugene
|
Hmmm, I wonder how that compares to the CL-215 and CL-415. Every
summer, dozens of people here in South Australia point out how backward we
are because we don't have any of these planes ("heavens , even Greece has
10")
The fact that our fire fighting authorities don't want to blow $45M a copy
and prefer to use dozens of smaller crop dusters instead of small numbers of
the large water bombers. One of the arguments for the planes is that
it can participate in search & rescue operations, when not on fire duties.
--
Cheers
Dave Kearton
Eugene Griessel
>Hmmm, I wonder how that compares to the CL-215 and CL-415. Every
>summer, dozens of people here in South Australia point out how backward we
>are because we don't have any of these planes ("heavens , even Greece has
>10")
>
>
>The fact that our fire fighting authorities don't want to blow $45M a copy
>and prefer to use dozens of smaller crop dusters instead of small numbers of
>the large water bombers. One of the arguments for the planes is that
>it can participate in search & rescue operations, when not on fire duties.
Many years ago Canadair demonstrated the CL-215 to the Cape Town city
authorities and it was hoped that 3 would be acquired for
fire-fighting. However the scheme had some real holes in it - very
few large bodies of water, and those quite distant, exist for
"scooping" operations. A fire in the Cape Town mountains would
require a 40 - 50 mile round trip for refills.
And the things would have been pretty useless in the SAR role too,
given our seas and the nature of much of the rescue work.
Currently the City makes use of a bunch of chartered helicopters -
mostly Mil8's - using "bambi buckets" for firefighting.
Eugene L Griessel www.dynagen.co.za/eugene
Progress may have been all right once, but it went on too long.
Richard Brooks
Also, you need to get a bit of airflow over the wings and what with
constantly changing attitude in a swell that kind of screws things up a bit.
Richard.
Cub Driver
<Berna...@REMOVEhotmail.com> wrote:
>I was reading that Sunderland Flying Boats were not allowed to land in
>the open sea and I was wondering if this type of landing is considered
>as being very dangerous?
Certainly. If your airplane touches down at 60 knots, and there is a
mere one-foot chop on the water, that's like landing on a very deeply
plowed field across the furrows. Since there's no landing gear, it's
not apt to flip, but the aircraft is really going to be shaken up.
Seaplanes landed in the open sea all the time, of course, when they
had to. I read of one rescue by a Catalina flying boat that got down
all right but couldn't get off, but it loaded a few dozen men and
served as a liferaft until a ship came along to rescue them.
Various methods were used to quiet the waves for seaplanes. Warships
that carried scout planes would make a fast, wide turn to calm the
water, and the scout landed in the calm spot. The Germans set up a
system for crossing the South Atlantic where the seaplane was refueled
at sea. The refueling boat laid down oil to calm the water, then towed
a mat behind it, onto which the seaplane taxied and was brought up
close for refueling.
-- all the best, Dan Ford
email war...@mailblocks.com (put Cubdriver in subject line)
Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
Ken Duffey
How about the Russian jet-powered Beriev Be-200 amphibian??
It can operate in seat state 3/wave height 1.2 metres.
It comes in firebomber and SAR versions :-
http://www.beriev.com/eng/core_e.html
Or, even better, the A-40. It can manage sea state 4 & 2.2 metres.
Ken
Eugene Griessel
>How about the Russian jet-powered Beriev Be-200 amphibian??
>
>It can operate in seat state 3/wave height 1.2 metres.
>
>It comes in firebomber and SAR versions :-
>http://www.beriev.com/eng/core_e.html
>
>Or, even better, the A-40. It can manage sea state 4 & 2.2 metres.
The times we need ASR you would seldom get sea states that mild around
here. 6 to 8 metres would be more normal.
As for firebombing - as I stated previously - we are very short of
lakes in these parts. And in summer when we have our big bush fires
the artificial dams also tend to be low - and far away. Our major dam
is 65 kilometres from where we usually have our fires. And at present
is 14% full (admittedly we are in a bad drought cycle). The next one
is another 40 km further. In desperation sea water has been used in
the past - put we have a very sensitive, very precious floral kingdom
out here called the "fynbos" which is unique, small in area and
shrinking as human encroachment takes place.
Nobody wants to dump seawater on it unless life and limb is
endangered. Paradoxically the fynbos needs regular fires to flourish.
Eugene L Griessel www.dynagen.co.za/eugene
Fanaticism consists in redoubling your efforts when you have
forgotten your aim.
Per Nordenberg
"Cub Driver" <war...@mailblocks.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:buvt11do7utn7ue9u...@4ax.com...
> Various methods were used to quiet the waves for seaplanes. Warships
> that carried scout planes would make a fast, wide turn to calm the
> water, and the scout landed in the calm spot. The Germans set up a
> system for crossing the South Atlantic where the seaplane was refueled
> at sea. The refueling boat laid down oil to calm the water, then towed
> a mat behind it, onto which the seaplane taxied and was brought up
> close for refueling.
This method, to tow a mat or trailing sail behind the ship to quiet the waves and assist in
recovery, was also tested several times on the Swedish aircraft cruiser GOTLAND sometime during the
late 30's. In spite of the successful outcome of the tests it was decided not to use this method,
since it was assumed the aircraft (Hawker Osprey or S 9 in Sw) after completed mission were to land
near the coast and later hoisted onboard the cruiser by crane. During the tests with the trailing
sail the aircraft floats were reinforced with a keel strip on the underside. My source is
"Katapultflygplanet S 9 och Flygplanskryssaren Gotland" by Mikael Forslund (ISBN 91-630-8037-0).
Regards,
Per Nordenberg
Eric Joiner
> I was reading that Sunderland Flying Boats were not allowed to land in
> the open sea and I was wondering if this type of landing is considered
> as being very dangerous?
>
Same thing was true of the PBY Catalina. Landing on open ocean with
was likely to pop rivets in the hull if the waves were even mildly up.
It happened, but was highly discouraged.