Hans Ulrich Rudel - Nazi or not?
MKSheppard
IMHO, he wasn't really a Nazi, just a guy who, like everybody else,
had to join the Nazis. Sort of like the Communist party in the USSR
(while it existed), you had to be one in order to get the important
jobs.
If he really was a die-hard Nazi, then why wasn't he hunted down by
the Israelis and bought to trial?
He was branded a Nazi because when he tried to do politics, he called
for compensation to Nazi war veterans (soldiers, sailors, airmen,
etc). Because of that, everybody jumped at him, calling him a Nazi.
What's so bad about former soldiers, now in their 80s, missing a leg
in service of their country, recieving a check from the gov't for
their service, even if they were SS?
It's sad, really. Rudel kept reminding Germans of WWII, and they
didn't want to remember the sacrifices and proud service of millions
of young Germans under the flag (even if it was the Nazi flag). They
didn't like that, so they turned him into a exile.
In the US, however, it's a completely different story. His book (which
sold about 5 million copies worldwide) sold 1 million copies here.
During the 70's, several times a year, Rudel would travel from South
America to the US to offer input on the design of the A-10. Here, we
respect war veterans who served their country. (of course, there was
that matter called Vietnam, but that's a statistical blip)
He even indirectly destroyed the careers of a few generals in the
German military, when they compared a Socialist candidate's beginnings
to Rudel's. They were sacked for that.
Anything else you'd like to add. Flames welcome.
James P. Girardeau
If this was all there was to be said about Rudel I would probably agree
with you. However, Rudel helped hide Mangele<sic>, I believe by helping
provide the Doctor with funds sent by the Mangele family. There's no way
Rudel could not have known why Mangele was hiding. IMO this removes
Rudel from the catagory of a respected war veteran.
pilots@planet.net Dave Sutton
> "James P. Girardeau" <j4...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
<snip>
> IMO this removes
> Rudel from the catagory of a respected war veteran.
Who gives a s... what he did post-war, or what his politics were? He was
the best anti-tank shot in the world, and prove his personal bravery beyond
criticism many times. As a "warrior" he was unparalleled. He wasn't hired as
a politician or humanist. He was a KILLER and a 'very' efficient one. This is
the fact of war, and he was the best art what he did.
Here is a quote from an interview he gave Jeff Cooper before he died:
Question:
"On the occasion that you landed across the Dniester to rescue two
comrades, and your aircraft stuck in the mud, preventing your take-off,
and you made you way to the ice clogged river, and stripped and swam
500 meters in the deadly cold water, losing a man on the way, and without
clothing or shoes you ran into a Russian patrol, which opened fire, and
you outran the Russians, barefoot, with a bullet in your shoulder, and you
then made it back some 60 KM to the German positions, on that occasion
how long were you a casualty?"
Answer:
" I was in the aid station one day. The next day I killed ten tanks.
Two days later I got eighteen. My feet were very painfull, but I
did not need to walk".
This was one tough guy..... "Kreigoberst", Master at War.
******************************************************************************************
David Sutton pil...@planet.net HTTP://www.planet.net/ppilots/
Red Star Aviation HTTP://aeroweb.lucia.it/~agretch/RedStarAviation.html
"Warbird Aviation: The Ultimate Motorsport" Yak-50, Fouga Magister, MiG-17
"Porsche: A Close Second" 911S, Euro-Spec 944
"Russian Ural Motorcycles: A Primitive Third" 1966 Sidecar, 1967 Solo
*******************************************************************************************
Charles K. Scott
In article <34412e78...@news.erols.com>
ryan...@erols.com (MKSheppard) writes:
> IMHO, he wasn't really a Nazi, just a guy who, like everybody else,
> had to join the Nazis. Sort of like the Communist party in the USSR
> (while it existed), you had to be one in order to get the important
> jobs.
>
> If he really was a die-hard Nazi, then why wasn't he hunted down by
> the Israelis and bought to trial?
Because while he was a Nazi, and may have believed and agreed with the
"final solution" he didn't participate in the "Holocaust". He was just
a fighter at the front. Even the Israelis differentiate between those
to were merely good fighters and those who planned and attempted to
cause the extinction of Jewish humanity, or those who assisted.
Rudel was a good fighter but he fought Russians, he didn't kill Jews.
Corky Scott
Carlo Kopp
Dave Sutton wrote:
>
> > "James P. Girardeau" <j4...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
> Answer:
>
> " I was in the aid station one day. The next day I killed ten tanks.
> Two days later I got eighteen. My feet were very painfull, but I
> did not need to walk".
>
> This was one tough guy..... "Kreigoberst", Master at War.
>
aside, Rudel was a true warrior, and would have been a great asset to
any air force he flew for.
Many years ago I met a (now deceased) former Tiger tank commander
(Wehrmacht Hauptmann) who pulled Rudel out of a shot up, red painted
Stuka, in Hungary, 1944. Rudel, I was told, had severe injuries from 20
mm rounds in his legs but nevertheless flew the badly holed Ju-87 back
behind German lines and landed it intact. He couldn't walk and had to be
carried away from the aircraft, he did not pass out either despite the
obvious pain.
Once his legs healed, he went back out to plink some more Russian tanks.
Rudel was not only tremendously competent, he was also courageous almost
to a fault, and stubbornly determined to succeed, no matter how
overwhelming the opposition. One very tough man, indeed.
C
SIRIUS
This is just from memory, so perhaps someone can either confirm or refute
the following:
It's my understanding that Rudel made numerous pro-Nazi statements in the
original, German edition of his autobiography and that when it was abridged
for publication in English, these statements were toned down or eliminated.
Also, I've read quite a few books on Bomber Command and its Luftwaffe
opponents recently, so I don't recall exactly which one contained the
statement that Luftwaffe officers (and, I presume, officers of the army and
navy, too) were specifically not permitted to join the Nazi (or any other)
political party. The book did not expand on this or explain why. I have no
idea of the statement's accuracy.
If both of the above are confirmed, it would shed new light on the
discussion about Rudel. I will try to find out more and will post it when I
find it. If anyone else can confirm or refute the above, please post a
reply to the group and state your sources.
--
Jeff Rankin-Lowe
Zir...@wwdc.com
>>>>>To reply, replace Z with s in "Zirius"<<<<<
Author: "The Aircraft of the Canadian Armed Forces"
Author: "Golden Years: The Royal Canadian Air Force in the 1950s"
Canada Correspondent: "World Air Power Journal", "Wings of Fame", "Combat
Aircraft"
==================================
Charles K. Scott <Charles...@dartmouth.edu> wrote in article
<61trap$er7$1...@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>...
Ruy Horta
"SIRIUS" <Zir...@wwdc.com> wrote:
>It's my understanding that Rudel made numerous pro-Nazi statements in the
>original, German edition of his autobiography and that when it was abridged
>for publication in English, these statements were toned down or eliminated.
Rudel was an unrepenting Nazi, I can't deny that...
Even in the US version, the one I have by Noontide, this is absolutely
made clear. On the other hand, if we disregard the post WW-2 story, of
which I know nothing other then rumors I've read on NGs, we still must
understand that without that Nazi fanaticism, Rudel would probably
never have accomplished what he did...
He was the absolute product of a regime and (its) his hate for
communism was his live long drive...a Nazi until his death
>Also, I've read quite a few books on Bomber Command and its Luftwaffe
>opponents recently, so I don't recall exactly which one contained the
>statement that Luftwaffe officers (and, I presume, officers of the army and
>navy, too) were specifically not permitted to join the Nazi (or any other)
>political party. The book did not expand on this or explain why. I have no
>idea of the statement's accuracy.
Its was forbidden for officers (all service men?) to be member of ANY
political party, I think this was lifted in case of the Nazi party
after the assassination attempt of Von Stauffenberg in July '44. This
made Hitler and the Nazi leadership so weary of the Armed Forces that
they politicized the services and gave more power to the SS.
Ruy Horta
Luftwaffe and JG53 webpage
http://www.xs4all.nl/~rhorta
"How good bad reasons and bad music sound
when we march against an enemy."
(Due to the ever increasing activity of SPAMMERS,
I've been forced to include an anti-SPAM, sorry.
If you want to e-mail me, just remove NOSPAM.)
Henry Sokolski9001
In article <34412e78...@news.erols.com>,
ryan...@erols.com (MKSheppard) wrote:
>IMHO, he wasn't really a Nazi, just a guy who, like everybody else,
>had to join the Nazis. Sort of like the Communist party in the USSR
>(while it existed), you had to be one in order to get the important
>jobs.
The "just obeying orders" routine got shot down in flames at Nuremberg. You
have a point, but his actions after the war indicate much more than a simple
"I'm joining because everybody else did" attitude--I'd suggest, in fact,
that he was much more of a true believer than many of his comrades in the
Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe (but not the SS).
>
>If he really was a die-hard Nazi, then why wasn't he hunted down by
>the Israelis and bought to trial?
Because, to the best of my knowledge, he did not commit war crimes. He was
a soldier, and his actions were confined to the battlefield. The Israelis
don't just hunt people down because they were Nazi Party members--they hunt
down the members of the Nazi war machine who were guilty of systematically
slaughtering over ten million innocent civilians, and who put countless
millions of civilians and prisoners of war into work as slaves for the Nazi
war effort. Rudel didn't do that. He fought the Soviets (and lost, thank
goodness!), and then became a rather objectionable political figure after
the war.
>
>He was branded a Nazi because when he tried to do politics, he called
>for compensation to Nazi war veterans (soldiers, sailors, airmen,
>etc). Because of that, everybody jumped at him, calling him a Nazi.
It was a bit more than that, actually. He supported the Nazi cause after
the war--not just Germany's war aims or their veterans. That's not very
admirable.
>
>What's so bad about former soldiers, now in their 80s, missing a leg
>in service of their country, recieving a check from the gov't for
>their service, even if they were SS?
Depends what they did for their country. If they "fought" for their country
by slaughtering innocents Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, and other people labeled
"undesireable" by the National Socialist Party in concentration camps, I say
they're not entitled to a pension.
>
>It's sad, really. Rudel kept reminding Germans of WWII, and they
>didn't want to remember the sacrifices and proud service of millions
>of young Germans under the flag (even if it was the Nazi flag). They
>didn't like that, so they turned him into a exile.
I think you may have that wrong.
>
>In the US, however, it's a completely different story. His book (which
>sold about 5 million copies worldwide) sold 1 million copies here.
>During the 70's, several times a year, Rudel would travel from South
>America to the US to offer input on the design of the A-10. Here, we
>respect war veterans who served their country. (of course, there was
>that matter called Vietnam, but that's a statistical blip)
In the Cold War, we accepted help from a lot of Germans: von Braun, Gehlen,
and Rudel among them. That doesn't mean they were good people, either
before their side lost or after they joined "the good guys".
>
>He even indirectly destroyed the careers of a few generals in the
>German military, when they compared a Socialist candidate's beginnings
>to Rudel's. They were sacked for that.
>
>Anything else you'd like to add. Flames welcome.
>
Rudel was connected to "Der Spinnet", a Nazi organization which helped war
criminals escape from Europe to South America in the years after the war.
He was also involved in financing pro-Nazi propoganda and political efforts
after the Second World War.
If you're serious about wanting to know more about this, I'd suggest you
either contact the Israeli Embassy or Simon Wiesenthal's organization.
These are the best sources on organized pro-Nazi groups after the Second
World War. Rudel may have been a hell of a pilot, but he supported the war
objectives and racial policies of the Nazi Party. I'd suggest that this
does not make him a good role model for anyone. Hero-worship has it's
place, but recognizing the flaws of an individual is sometimes equally
important.
Henry Sokolski9001
In article <61rudo$i...@jupiter.planet.net>,
Dave Sutton <nospam pil...@planet.net> wrote:
>> "James P. Girardeau" <j4...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
><snip>
>
>> IMO this removes
>> Rudel from the catagory of a respected war veteran.
>
>
>Who gives a s... what he did post-war, or what his politics were? He was
>the best anti-tank shot in the world, and prove his personal bravery beyond
>criticism many times. As a "warrior" he was unparalleled. He wasn't hired
as
>a politician or humanist. He was a KILLER and a 'very' efficient one. This
is
>the fact of war, and he was the best art what he did.
Umm...I do, Dave. Respecting his capabilities as a soldier is only
examining a part of his life. IF he supported the policies and philosophies
of the Nazi Party, not only during the war but afterwards, I'd say we should
be pretty careful about using him as a role model for anything. Later in
his life he _chose_ a political role, using his reputation as a soldier to
gain influence, popularity, and notoriety. Hitler did the same thing (with
a lot less justification).
For myself, I'll accept him as a helluva a pilot, but he's about as far up
on my list of "heroes" as Shoeless Joe Jackson: they both become role models
long after everyone else who pariticpated in their trade has been
immortalized.