Douglas XB-19
Rob Arndt
John Szalay
f3a59a...@11g2000prw.googlegroups.com:
> http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2072/2209023522_f8b9e0e0b4_o.jpg
>
> Rob
>
B-19 Martin Bomber
Date taken: 1941
Photographer: Peter Stackpole
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/e0a435ff7355b7f7_large
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/381a39cb70c93bc0_large
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/393dc39a48e394a0_large
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/39bd04840301b65a_large
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/1e06f2c2462995d3_large
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/bb8b4222745f361b_large
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/77d81c4defe19308_large
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/8c53695a4fc7c92f_large
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/be810030984fd092_large
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/19bcfe196cf8a119_large
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/543027ad239b7d34_large
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/46541a65881d146b_large
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http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/e0f4df873c384579_large
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/5be2ecda813256c7_large
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/35892471719fcd39_large
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/24b938aa79331ba9_large
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/385ab3b897f7b1ef_large
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http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/4d589f82f14ff0a7_large
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/5fe928f052913924_large
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/23f4de0ea1556e50_large
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/a070ecdc437f1661_large
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/8c08c9ccc0d400f4_large
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/d2ac21bf546fd0d3_large
webpa
> Rob Arndt <teuton...@aol.com> wrote in news:6c7ca815-248b-45a0-acde-
> f3a59a2b9...@11g2000prw.googlegroups.com:
DOUGLAS XB-19, not Martin.
JasiekS
U�ytkownik "John Szalay" <john.szalay.at.att.net> napisa� w
wiadomo�ci news:Xns9D715C9982564...@216.196.97.142...
> http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/d2ac21bf546fd0d3_large
This one shows so known 'wake rake' or 'drag rake' behind wing's
trailing edge. This is a row of total pressure probes to determine
velocity profile in the wake of airfoil. From this profile you can
calculate drag coefficient.
--
JasiekS
Warsaw, Poland
John Szalay
>>
>> �B-19 Martin Bomber
>> �Date taken: 1941
>> �Photographer: Peter Stackpole
>>
>>
Ah Well...
Just reporting it as I found it,
thats the caption in the LIFE archives.
there are MANY mistakes and mis-labeling in the captions of
the photos ,.. one of the reasons, its so hard to find things
and also why its so much fun to keep looking for some undiscovered
gems... 2 million photos is a lot to go through.
David E. Powell
Agreed, remember Surcouf was labeled as a British submarine.... this
is "as it was" which is always fascinating.
John Szalay
>> gems... 2 million photos is a lot to go through.
>
> Agreed, remember Surcouf was labeled as a British submarine.... this
> is "as it was" which is always fascinating.
>
Also finding a LOT of edited photos, in the WWII section
Surely the work of the military censors of the day..
Squadron markings, names ETC: also backgrounds of certain
scenes.. ship numbers..
Dan
My favourite Allied censorship was the white fuzz ball where a ship's
antenna should be.
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
John Szalay
> J
>>
>> Also finding a LOT of edited photos, in the WWII section
>> Surely the work of the military censors of the day..
>> Squadron markings, names ETC: also backgrounds of certain
>> scenes.. ship numbers..
>>
>
> My favourite Allied censorship was the white fuzz ball where a
> ship's
> antenna should be.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
or the bombsight
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/76bded2c6433e82b_large
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/16532ed0aa037de9_large
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/3bee787c078ec369_large
interesting shots of a big gun mosquito
no censorship..
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/7106f59af227521b_large
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/9f5a35d0e7dd537b_large
or an 8 gun one
Bill Shatzer
> Dan <B24...@aol.com> wrote in news:9ChFn.831$HG1...@newsfe21.iad:
>
>
>>J
>>
>>> Also finding a LOT of edited photos, in the WWII section
>>>Surely the work of the military censors of the day..
>>>Squadron markings, names ETC: also backgrounds of certain
>>>scenes.. ship numbers..
>>>
>>
>> My favourite Allied censorship was the white fuzz ball where a
>> ship's
>>antenna should be.
> or the bombsight
> http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/76bded2c6433e82b_large
> http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/16532ed0aa037de9_large
> http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/3bee787c078ec369_large
Rather silly - certainly by the time they were painting "invasion
stripes" on Mosquitoes, the germans were in possession of numerous bomb
sights recovered from crashed aircraft.
Even a badly crash damaged bomb sight would furnish far more information
than a photograph.
John Szalay
> Rather silly - certainly by the time they were painting "invasion
> stripes" on Mosquitoes, the germans were in possession of numerous bomb
> sights recovered from crashed aircraft.
>
> Even a badly crash damaged bomb sight would furnish far more information
> than a photograph.
>
Perhaps to-day,, but, put yourself in the 1940's mindset...
David E. Powell
> Bill Shatzer <ww...@NOcornell.edu> wrote innews:hs4eok$6m5$1...@news.eternal-
>
> > Rather silly - certainly by the time they were painting "invasion
> > stripes" on Mosquitoes, the germans were in possession of numerous bomb
> > sights recovered from crashed aircraft.
>
> > Even a badly crash damaged bomb sight would furnish far more information
> > than a photograph.
>
> Perhaps to-day,, but, put yourself in the 1940's mindset...
True that. The Norden bombsight was classified throughout the war, I
believe.
guy
> Dan <B24...@aol.com> wrote innews:9ChFn.831$HG1...@newsfe21.iad:
Thanks John, not seen these before
Guy
Rob Arndt
Dan
So did the British, Italians and Soviets, so why must you use terms
like "BFD?" Norden was one of the best.
Under ideal situations most bomb sights served nicely, but war rarely
has idea situations. Nazi bombers weren't exactly known for precision
high altitude bombing any better than anyone else.
David E. Powell
Not to mention that my point was in response to the "Why photos were
blurred out when..." point, replying that even with some examples
having been lost over Germany, the Norden was classified throughout
the war. Secrecy was serious stuff in WW2 and it was seen as better to
overclassify as opposed to the alternative.
Musicman59
> Rob Arndt <teuton...@aol.com> wrote in news:6c7ca815-248b-45a0-acde-
> f3a59a2b9...@11g2000prw.googlegroups.com:
>
is it normal for that era to have so much metal in the greenhouse and
upper turret? Plexi wasn't used yet? Seems awfully easy to miss a
bogie when its lined right up with the metal framing.
Craig
Peter Stickney
The transparent areas are Plexiglas (Perspex if you're a Brit).
At that time it wasn't possible to mold Plexi of sufficient thickness
into a one-piece unit that could stand up to the environment that an
airplane transparency has to deal with. (Not just airspeed, but rain
and hail.) This meant that cockpit canopies, turret domes, and the
like were made up of small clear pieces and a lot of metal framing.
Consider, if you will, the early bubble canopies of the Lockheed
P-38, Bell P-39, and Mitsubishi A6M (Zero), and the Sperry
Turret used on the early B-17E and B-17F. It wasn't until late
1942/early 1943 that the ability to make a relatively large
blown canopy was developed in the U.S. and Britain.
Compare mid and late war Western Allied aircraft to
the German aircraft of the same era for an example of
the difference.
The difficulty of building large blown Plexiglas of sufficient
strength persisted after the end of the War. One of the advantages
that the U.S.A.F. F-16 had over the Soviet MiG-15 was the size
and curvature of the canopy. An F-86 pilot sat very high in the fuselage,
and could lean to the side and look out past the fuselage line of the airplane,
nearly straight down and to the rear. A MiG pilot sat with only his head
sticking out of the fuselage line, and his sightlines were blocked by the
big round fuselage.
It still wasn't easy, at that time. The Republif F-84 Thunderjets
(The straight-wing ones) and the North American B-45 jet bomber
both had to have a web of fiberglass reinforcements added to their
canopies after they showed a tendency to blow out of the frames
at high altitudes.
P-38 Image:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lockheed_P-38_Lightning_USAF.JPG
P-39 Image:
http://www.richard-seaman.com/Aircraft/AirShows/Holloman2005/Highlights/P39.jpg
A6M Image:
http://sookyeong.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/a6m-7a.jpg
P-51D Image:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2d/P51-d_mustang_472216_arp.jpg/800px-P51-
d_mustang_472216_arp.jpg (Mind the line wrap)
Me 109G Image:
http://www.taphilo.com/Photo/Pictures/BF109-Duxford.jpg
F-86 Image:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/F-86h-53-1117-388fbw.jpeg
MiG-15 Image:
http://www.richard-seaman.com/Aircraft/AirShows/Chino2006/Highlights/F86Mig15Chino2006.jpg
F-84G Image:
http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/1/1/1/0826111.jpg
B-45 Image:
http://kwvaflchapter14.com/images-imported/planes/B-45-HarmonAFB.jpg
--
Pete Stickney
Failure is not an option
It comes bundled with the system
Dan
<snip>
>
> The difficulty of building large blown Plexiglas of sufficient
> strength persisted after the end of the War.
Are the current canopies blown or cast? The bubbles used in manned
submersibles are several inches thick and are cast in molds. I haven't
any idea how thick A-10, F-16 and the like canopies are, but I wonder
where the point is that cast is better or more economical than blown.
Peter Stickney
I can't say for certain, but I think they're blown, or hot-stretched.
It's very difficult to get a uniform density and mixture (And thus
optical qualities) with cast plastic (Or even cast glass)
The submarine case is a bit different - the pressures are much higher,
and the need to be spotting a little speck way far away is much
less important.
John Szalay
There was an article not too long ago about an F-22 canopy that would not
raise, and to release the pilot, the base fire dept used a rotary saw to
cut the canopy, I was really surprised as to the thickness of that piece of
plastic. I'll see if I can find the photos..
IIRC: that puppy cost well over $100,000.
Dan
I remember the first time I manually opened an F-4E. I was surprised
how heavy the thing was. It would have been nice to have had a second
body there to help while I put the up-lock in place. The weight was much
more than the aluminum accounted for. I wonder how thick the plexiglass was.
tankfixer
in the lifting mechanism ?
Or was it electric ?
If so you might have some drag in the lift motor.
Dan
It was pneumatic. Near the aft of the canopies is an actuator that
pushes the canopy open. I believe it closes by weight alone. There's an
accumulator that holds compressed air to open the canopies. It will
bleed off after extended periods of time if it is not replenished.
While there is some friction drag when manually lifting the canopy I
doubt there's much air suction.
Even when stored in a hangar it was typical to leave the canopies
closed if no one was expected to need access to the cockpits.
If you look at a picture of the left side of an F-4E you will see two
round black dots below the sill. Those are buttons to open or close the
canopy. If memory serves the forward one opens and the aft one closes.
For safety reasons it's a good idea to watch the canopy as one installs
the up locks. The up locks are aluminum channels which fit over the rod
on the actuator and are held in place with a pin.
More safety tips: 1) if, when removing the up lock, it doesn't come
out easily always assume pressure has bled down, 2) when using the
aircraft's ladder to climb into the pilot's seat before the up lock is
installed always keep an eye on the canopy, it's been known to open all
the way then start to sag (bleed down), the ground crew ladder will
block the canopy from closing all the way.
The black and yellow rubber rings on top of the seats are NOT hand
holds. If the safety pin is not installed you will get Big Surprise�.
Now you know all there is to climb into an F-4E. Next time we will
discuss which handles to leave alone. Hint: ALL OF THEM.
John Szalay
>
> I remember the first time I manually opened an F-4E. I was
> surprised
> how heavy the thing was. It would have been nice to have had a second
> body there to help while I put the up-lock in place. The weight was
> much more than the aluminum accounted for. I wonder how thick the
> plexiglass was.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
Found the photos of the stuck F-22 canopy,
http://www.f-16.net/news_article1768.html
http://www.f-16.net/gallery_item96293.html
http://www.f-16.net/gallery_item96323.html
http://www.f-16.net/gallery_item96318.html
http://www.f-16.net/gallery_item96308.html
Dan
What's your guess? 1/2" plus?
Just poked through some of the pictures and found myself missing my
talkies.
David E. Powell
Comfortable and Hi-Tech.
Dan
> Damage and debris aside that looks like a really neat cockpit!
>
>
> Comfortable and Hi-Tech.
I bet the smell was a tad harsh during the cut.
John Szalay
>
>
> What's your guess? 1/2" plus?
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
3/4" easy..
John Szalay
> My favourite Allied censorship was the white fuzz ball where a
> ship's
> antenna should be.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
another example of the photo censorship.
tankfixer
That makes sense, less weight and complication
>
> While there is some friction drag when manually lifting the canopy I
> doubt there's much air suction.
>
> Even when stored in a hangar it was typical to leave the canopies
> closed if no one was expected to need access to the cockpits.
I'd always assumed they were left open with a brace.
>
> If you look at a picture of the left side of an F-4E you will see two
> round black dots below the sill. Those are buttons to open or close the
> canopy. If memory serves the forward one opens and the aft one closes.
> For safety reasons it's a good idea to watch the canopy as one installs
> the up locks. The up locks are aluminum channels which fit over the rod
> on the actuator and are held in place with a pin.
>
> More safety tips: 1) if, when removing the up lock, it doesn't come
> out easily always assume pressure has bled down, 2) when using the
> aircraft's ladder to climb into the pilot's seat before the up lock is
> installed always keep an eye on the canopy, it's been known to open all
> the way then start to sag (bleed down), the ground crew ladder will
> block the canopy from closing all the way.
I always give hydraulic and pneumatic devices a wary eye... ;')
> The black and yellow rubber rings on top of the seats are NOT hand
> holds. If the safety pin is not installed you will get Big Surpriseￜ.
haha, yes I've had THAT briefing before...
>
> Now you know all there is to climb into an F-4E. Next time we will
> discuss which handles to leave alone. Hint: ALL OF THEM.
Thanks, I'll stick to tanks.. where the gun tube can go from full
elevation to full depression faster than it takes to propigate this
messge...
Dan
>>
>> Even when stored in a hangar it was typical to leave the canopies
>> closed if no one was expected to need access to the cockpits.
>
> I'd always assumed they were left open with a brace.
>
The reasons for leaving canopies closed when the airplane is outside
are obvious. The reasons for doing it inside include keeping animals
out, keeping dust out, keeping idiots out and reducing bleed down.
tankfixer
Good reasons all...but idiots in the USAF... ?
Oh yeah i forgot about daryl hunt..
Dan
I was thinking of random people, civilian and military, who would
wander over to the hangar and poke around where they shouldn't be.
I once had the pleasure of finding a wire in the middle of a bundle
someone had randomly cut for whatever reason. There are less than mature
servicemen and dependents who do things like that.
Dweezil Dwarftosser
> > >>> On Sun, 09 May 2010 17:27:21 -0500, Dan wrote:
> > >>>
> > >> I remember the first time I manually opened an F-4E. I was surprised
> > >> how heavy the thing was. It would have been nice to have had a second
> > >> body there to help while I put the up-lock in place. The weight was much
> > >> more than the aluminum accounted for. I wonder how thick the plexiglass was.
[ and ]
> > If you look at a picture of the left side of an F-4E you will see two
> > round black dots below the sill. Those are buttons to open or close the
> > canopy. If memory serves the forward one opens and the aft one closes.
Heheh... You could break a thumb trying to push one of
those 'buttons' by hand. (The solid rubber plugs had
to travel into the jet more than inch, where they used
brute force - at a right angle to the canopy open/close
lever's travel - to push the lever in the desired direction.
EVERYONE used a 7-level screwdriver to jab at those buttons
- which is why all of them had plenty of gouges on the face
of the hard rubber.
The worst scenario was closing a front canopy with all of the
air depleted: You initially find out the air is gone when
you can't extract the canopy uplock without lifting the canopy.
That's when you carefully exit the cockpit to stand on the
vari-ramp, and slowly lower the canopy about 2/3rds of the way,
before dropping it and let your upper body fall onto the
plexiglass. (Required, since it beats hell out of falling
backwards onto the ramp. It's an either/or proposition.)
Next, you stand on the point of the vari-ramp with your left
foot, and cross the right leg behind it, sliding your right
foot down the edge of the vari-ramp until your toes compress
the door protecting the upper step. (It helps to work nights,
so you can learn to do this in the dark - since you can't see
the damn toe opening from above in daylight, anyway!)
The next step is to transfer your weight to your right leg,
and kick your left foot around until it finds the lower toe-
hold. You are ready for the final procedure: jamming your
right forearm between the vari-ramp and aircraft skin (you
will need this for leverage), withdrawing the big crew chief
screwdriver from your back pocket (where it never is supposed
to be), and stabbing it into the "down" button with your left
hand, locking the canopy closed.
As the torrential afternoon thunderstorm rain approached
across the Florida 'open' flightline, you would then curse
every crew chief who ever lived for retreating to the line
shack at the first hint of the approaching storm - leaving
the specialists to close the rest of the 'airless' canopies
in the rows of aircraft lining the ramp.
BTW - IIRC, the canopy plexiglass was about 7/16ths thick.
Dan
>>>>>> On Sun, 09 May 2010 17:27:21 -0500, Dan wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>> I remember the first time I manually opened an F-4E. I was surprised
>>>>> how heavy the thing was. It would have been nice to have had a second
>>>>> body there to help while I put the up-lock in place. The weight was much
>>>>> more than the aluminum accounted for. I wonder how thick the plexiglass was.
>
> [ and ]
>
>>> If you look at a picture of the left side of an F-4E you will see two
>>> round black dots below the sill. Those are buttons to open or close the
>>> canopy. If memory serves the forward one opens and the aft one closes.
>
> Heheh... You could break a thumb trying to push one of
> those 'buttons' by hand. (The solid rubber plugs had
> to travel into the jet more than inch, where they used
> brute force - at a right angle to the canopy open/close
> lever's travel - to push the lever in the desired direction.
>
> EVERYONE used a 7-level screwdriver to jab at those buttons
> - which is why all of them had plenty of gouges on the face
> of the hard rubber.
7 level screwdrivers were too small. A regular screwdriver or a
snoopy was better in my opinion. I still have my snoopy, but miss my
talkies.
I don't recall if I ever closed one that was airless that I hadn't
opened. At Hahn those tended to be under cover. If all else fails
there's a B-1 stand to use, I suppose.
At Eglin we'd get afternoon storms from end of July to mid September
starting at about 1500. These happened almost every day and we'd still
have lighting in the distance around 2400. I'm still in the area, but
don't pay attention anymore, something about being retired, I suppose.
TAC side and parts of main side flight lines now have canopies so the
current crop of maintainers don't cook during the day. I tell you, the
youth these days.....
>
> BTW - IIRC, the canopy plexiglass was about 7/16ths thick.
It had to be at least that. I wonder if there's a site that can tell
us. Awhile ago an F-16 canopy was sold on e-bay, I wish I had checked to
see how heavy it was.
tankfixer
>
> tankfixer wrote:
> > In article <d93Gn.3499$HG1....@newsfe21.iad>, B24...@aol.com says...
> >> tankfixer wrote:
> >>> In article <%ZNFn.2842$0M5....@newsfe07.iad>, B24...@aol.com says...
> >> <snip>
> >>>> Even when stored in a hangar it was typical to leave the canopies
> >>>> closed if no one was expected to need access to the cockpits.
> >>> I'd always assumed they were left open with a brace.
> >>>
> >> The reasons for leaving canopies closed when the airplane is outside
> >> are obvious. The reasons for doing it inside include keeping animals
> >> out, keeping dust out, keeping idiots out and reducing bleed down.
> >
> > Good reasons all...but idiots in the USAF... ?
> > Oh yeah i forgot about daryl hunt..
>
> I was thinking of random people, civilian and military, who would
> wander over to the hangar and poke around where they shouldn't be.
While I am as curious as the next guy my parents taught me long ago to
look and not touch...
Too bad some never got that lesson
>
> I once had the pleasure of finding a wire in the middle of a bundle
> someone had randomly cut for whatever reason. There are less than mature
> servicemen and dependents who do things like that.
Darwin needs fodder for his theories...
Dan
>
>> I once had the pleasure of finding a wire in the middle of a bundle
>> someone had randomly cut for whatever reason. There are less than mature
>> servicemen and dependents who do things like that.
>
> Darwin needs fodder for his theories...
>
Maybe, but I was on that flight.