P-38 Lighting vs Yak-3.
Yevgeniy Chizhikov
"On November 7, Allies decide to deliver "present" and with group of
50-60 P-38 Lighting, near the Yugoslavian city Nish, attacked moving on
the road column of the 37th Army. Soviet army suffered losses in the men
and equipment; was killed General G. Kotov... Group of eight Russian
fighters under leadership of Koldunov was forced to enter the fight,
specially when they saw number of the Americans trying to block Soviet
air field and shot down two Yaks that try to take off. In the first pass
Yaks of the Koldunov's shutdown 3 Lightings, at the same time Koldunov
himself drove through spider web of tracers, and get only few meters
from American leader. Either American pilot did finally saw red stars,
or may be he was awakened by the Yak's blazing guns, which blew just
above the cabin, or perhaps he understood the not very complex hand
signal of the Russian pilot, by which he "saluted" American, but in any
case attack stopped. Latter American side apologized for the incident,
and sent their condolences to the families of the dead. Shot down
Americans, were not credited to any Russian pilot, but Russians pilots
saw how first American Lighting, which was extremely eagerly attacked
Russian solders, was dropped by Koldunov."
Koldunov was one of the top Russian aces. He personally shot down 46
German aircraft, plus 1 in group, and 1 American P-38 Lighting.
Yevgeniy Chizhikov.
BenL 10
A different version:
In early Nov. 1944 ,Russian ground forces had the Germans in retreat. The 15th
Air Force was requested to provide close air support. Colonel C.T. Edwinson's
82nd Fighter Group operating from Foggia, Italy, caught the mission. The
P-38's performance was so good that the Russians asked for a repeat support
mission to be flown by the same group on the following day. Again, Edwinson
led his 3 Squadrons of P-38s across the Adriatic and down into the valleys of
mountainous Yugoslavia. Unknown to Edwinson a crisis was in the making. The
Russians had failed to advise Foggia that during the interval between the
previous day's support mission and now, Russian ground forces had advanced the
battle line by 100 kilometers. Edwinson led the P-38s into the strafing attack
that first ripped into the Germans then immediately into the Russians. The
resulting devastation was both massive and effective. Caught in the strafing
was a Russian staff car. It's occupant, a 3-star General, was was killed. A
flight of Yaks were in the vicinity and the call went out for them to attack
the P-38s still busy making strafing runs. Caught totally by surprise,
Edwinson saw two of his his aircraft being shot down. He signalled the
squadron to disengage from the ground attack and fight their way out. During
the brief air battle that followed Edwinson's pilots knocked down four of the
Yaks. When advised that the situation was one of those unfortunate happenings
that bad communications sometimes foster, the Russians shot those involved on
their end and demanded the same be done to Edwinson. Edwinson was quietly and
hastily re-assigned to a base out of Europe.
Ben
ben...@aol.com (Ben Levario)
ArtKramr
>Date: 10/26/98 8:16 AM PST
Ben,
Your version sosunds a lot more likely.
Arthur Kramer
344th Bomb Group
494th Bomb Squadron
9th Tactical Air Force
England France Belgium Holland Germany
y.chi...@popmail.csuohio.edu
ben...@aol.com (BenL 10) wrote:
It is stories like this which again question quality of American reporting.
with exception of two Yaks over air field non were shot down. Americans lost
3 P-38. Non of the Russian group of 8 was shot down. It was one of the elit
units, were almost all involved had been aces with high scores. NON OF THEM
WERE SHOT BY NKVD! Koldunov, which killed one P-38, soon after that recieved
his second Hero of the Soviet Union, and went on study in highest military
schools of USSR. After that he served many years, comanded division. American
version of this stories is quiet interesting, sounds like appology mixed with
a lot of ego and myths about Soviets.
Yevgeniy Chizhikov.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
y.chi...@popmail.csuohio.edu
artk...@aol.com (ArtKramr) wrote:
> Ben,
> Your version sosunds a lot more likely.
One problem, with exception of two yaks over the air field non were shot
down. No on of the Russians were shot for that. Koldunov, who personaly
smoked P-38, recieved Hero of the Soviet Union, went to the highest military
academy, latter comanded division. It is tipical American Cold War story
about bloody Russians who kill their own for fun.
Arandjel
>A different version:
>
>In early Nov. 1944 ,Russian ground forces had the Germans in retreat. The
15th
>Air Force was requested to provide close air support. Colonel C.T.
Edwinson's
>82nd Fighter Group operating from Foggia, Italy, caught the mission. The
>P-38's performance was so good that the Russians asked for a repeat support
>mission to be flown by the same group on the following day. Again,
Edwinson
>led his 3 Squadrons of P-38s across the Adriatic and
.....bla,bla,bla,bla,bla....
Mr.BenL, at first you have to know that city of Nis had been liberated on
14.10.44,and on 07.11.44
the nearest German unit was few hundred kilometres away from Nis.On 07.11.44
units from III Ukraine front crossed river Danube near city of Apatin ( 400
km to
the north).The unit which had been attacked was part of III Ukraine front
and that unit was on the march to the north.So,be kind and explain to us why
Russian would asked you idiots for support ,especially at territory which
had been liberated almost one month ago?Also,do you think that army able to
push Germans thousands kilometres from Moscow need your help?
Your Mr.Edwinson is ordinary liar.The truth is that he and other pilots know
exactly what they did.And the truth is that Yaks shut down P38 without
losses.
Who ordered this attack? A butcher not a soldier.Probably the same person
who ordered attack on Serbian towns in spring 1944. Do you know that in this
attack you killed more people in Belgrade than Germans on 06.04.1941?Why?
Because we did not expect that you morons would attack innocent
civilians.Did you destroy any valuable target during those attacks.No !Or I
have wrong in case that we Serbian were your target.
BenL 10
>Date: Mon, Oct 26, 1998 15:54 E
>It is stories like this which again question quality of American reporting.
>with exception of two Yaks over air field non were shot down. Americans lost
>3 P-38. Non of the Russian group of 8 was shot down. It was one of the elit
>units, were almost all involved had been aces with high scores. NON OF THEM
>WERE SHOT BY NKVD! Koldunov, which killed one P-38, soon after that recieved
>his second Hero of the Soviet Union, and went on study in highest military
>schools of USSR. After that he served many years, comanded division. American
>version of this stories is quiet interesting, sounds like appology mixed with
>a lot of ego and myths about Soviets.
>
>Yevgeniy Chizhikov.
>
>
It is simply a different version and I am sure that there being two sides to
everything the truth will lie in between!
Ben
ben...@aol.com (Ben Levario)
y.chi...@popmail.csuohio.edu
"Arandjel" <ara...@EUnet.yu> wrote:
> Who ordered this attack? A butcher not a soldier.Probably the same person
> who ordered attack on Serbian towns in spring 1944. Do you know that in this
> attack you killed more people in Belgrade than Germans on 06.04.1941?Why?
> Because we did not expect that you morons would attack innocent
> civilians.Did you destroy any valuable target during those attacks.No !Or I
> have wrong in case that we Serbian were your target.
Relax. There is certaintly possibility that attack was deliberate. However
anyone who study history of USAF knows that USAF is sinonim of freindly fire.
Why do you think American pilots were not allowed to engage in BVR combat in
Gulf War? Probably for the same reason why special marks were put on the
wings of Mustangs so own bomber they were escorting did not blast them out of
the sky. Who knows how many such "BF-109" were recorded by bomber's gunners.
Even Ameican solders run for cover when there were USAF in the area to strike
Germans. You never knew when some trigger happy American pilot unload couple
bombs on own troops. It seams amazing but in Gulf War F-15 with help of AWACS
identify two SH-60 as Hinds. After pilot VISUALY confirm that this was Hinds
he blasted own SH-60's out of the sky. American pilots also attacked own
troops on the ground. No wonder that USAF did not allow American pilots
engage in VBR. Otherwise there would be hundreds of American planes shot down
and hundred of American dead.
eow
>
> In article <19981026113620...@ng67.aol.com>,
> artk...@aol.com (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
> > Ben,
> > Your version sosunds a lot more likely.
>
It is tipical American Cold War story
> about bloody Russians who kill their own for fun.
>
> Yevgeniy Chizhikov.
>
So what you're saying is that Stalin's purges were nothing more than a
typical (notice the Y) American cold war story?
eow
C.C. Jordan
>
>
>>A different version:
>>
>>In early Nov. 1944 ,Russian ground forces had the Germans in retreat. The
>15th
>>Air Force was requested to provide close air support. Colonel C.T.
>Edwinson's
>>82nd Fighter Group operating from Foggia, Italy, caught the mission. The
>>P-38's performance was so good that the Russians asked for a repeat support
>>mission to be flown by the same group on the following day. Again,
>Edwinson
>>led his 3 Squadrons of P-38s across the Adriatic and
>.....bla,bla,bla,bla,bla....
>
>Mr.BenL, at first you have to know that city of Nis had been liberated on
>14.10.44,and on 07.11.44
>the nearest German unit was few hundred kilometres away from Nis.On 07.11.44
>units from III Ukraine front crossed river Danube near city of Apatin ( 400
>km to
>the north).The unit which had been attacked was part of III Ukraine front
>and that unit was on the march to the north.So,be kind and explain to us why
>Russian would asked you idiots for support ,especially at territory which
>had been liberated almost one month ago?
Could it possibly be because the local Soviet commander was also an idiot?
>Also,do you think that army able to
>push Germans thousands kilometres from Moscow need your help?
Well, the answer is obvious..... Without U.S. assistance the Soviets may
not have been able to fight an offensive war beyond mid 1943 when they
would have run out of food, powder, fuel and transport. Not to mention a
hundred other essentials.
I see you are a well informed and open minded fellow.
>Your Mr.Edwinson is ordinary liar.
And you sir, are an ordinary psychopath. A rather common affliction in
Yugoslavia these days.
>The truth is that he and other pilots know
>exactly what they did.And the truth is that Yaks shut down P38 without
>losses.
Naturally, you have proof to support this........ Yevginey at least provides
some documentation, but you merely look at it as a chance to berate the
USA.
>Who ordered this attack?
Obviously someone ill-informed. Nonetheless, it is a unfortunate fact
of warfare that mistakes are made. What can be done about it? Not
much, other than to learn from the mistake.
>A butcher not a soldier.Probably the same person
>who ordered attack on Serbian towns in spring 1944.
I know, just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they're not really
out to get you........
>Do you know that in this
>attack you killed more people in Belgrade than Germans on 06.04.1941?Why?
>Because we did not expect that you morons would attack innocent
>civilians.Did you destroy any valuable target during those attacks.No !Or I
>have wrong in case that we Serbian were your target.
I'm curious, how many Serbians died in these attacks?
While we're discussing such matters, do you care to speculate how
many innocent Croatians, Bosnians and ethnic Albanians have deliberately
died at the hands of Serbians in the past several years?
Pardon me (and I'm sure I speak for many on this newsgroup) if I don't
feel much sorrow for a nation who has practiced a policy of ethnic
genocide without a hint of remorse. Do you as a Serbian support the
actions of your government? It occurs to me that one should be angry
with any needless bloodshed.
Your comments?
C.C. Jordan
Now online - Flying Prototypes by Erik Shilling:
The Curtiss YP-37 and the Bell YFM-1.
http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/index.html
http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/9485/index.html
The "Planes and Pilots of WWII" website.
An online WWII aviation history magazine.
A member of the WWII Web-ring.
Rodion Podorozhny
(1998, ISBN 5-89883-001-4). The author mentioned that he used records
of TsAMO (Central Archive of MoD). Unfortuntely, he didn't cite particular
file numbers. I don't think any Yaks were shot down otherwise
it would be openly mentioned (especially in a book published
long after 1985). I have descriptions of some other fights in which
Soviet pilots took losses and those are Soviet
accounts - so I don't think an official report would falsify
the actual events to such an extent.
Some youth oriented Soviet books (such as "His callsign - Sokol-1" about
L.L. Shestakov) did deviate from truth from time to time.
One thing is for sure - nobody was shot for this incident
on the Soviet side. Alexandr Ivanovich Koldunov, the leader of
the 8 Yaks who attacked the Lightnings, actually became CO of PVO in 1978
and was very much alive at that time.
He passed away on June 7th 1992. So whoever wrote this "other" account
certainly did not research too much of what became of Soviet
pilots who opened fire in the fight.
> squadron to disengage from the ground attack and fight their way out. During
> the brief air battle that followed Edwinson's pilots knocked down four of the
> Yaks. When advised that the situation was one of those unfortunate happenings
> that bad communications sometimes foster, the Russians shot those involved on
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> their end and demanded the same be done to Edwinson. Edwinson was quietly and
> hastily re-assigned to a base out of Europe.
>
>
> Ben
> ben...@aol.com (Ben Levario)
y.chi...@popmail.csuohio.edu
e...@hargray.com wrote:
> So what you're saying is that Stalin's purges were nothing more than a
> typical (notice the Y) American cold war story?
Apple and oranges. Your view of the events rather stereotypical than factual.
While certainly some solders were shot for making mistakes, friendly fire
accidents, and so on. But fact is a fact, in those cases pilots were not
shot. As well as Kozhedub was not shot for shooting down two Mustangs.
Pokryshkin was not shot for downing Russian Su-2, as well as some other aces
and pilots. Perhaps Soviets told that they punished their solders, but it
seams that American automatically assumed they were shot. Accuracy of whole
American story is questionable. Not only it is not accurate about events, but
also position, and so on. Quiet obvious serious mistake. According from
another post from Serbia, there were no Germans HUNDREDS km around. For such
mistake American pilots certainly must be shoot. I'm sure they would have
been, if they killed American or British solders. But for Russians, they only
got slap on the hand.
Yevgeniy Chizhikov.
SCStults
Serbian nut, and all the others that are obviously just spoiling for a fight.
It is very easy to distinguish between the serious analysts and historians and
the baiters with an agenda. As long as we keep responding to these folks who
twist and distort history to suit their personal needs and psychological voids,
they will keep wasting our time.
SCStults
ArtKramr
>I don't think any Yaks were shot down otherwise
>it would be openly mentioned
>so I don't think an official report would falsify
>the actual events to such an extent
>So whoever wrote this "other" account
>certainly did not research too much of what became of Soviet
>pilots who opened fire in the fight.
>
That is all conjecture, not fact.
Yevgeniy Chizhikov
ArtKramr wrote:
>
>
> That is all conjecture, not fact.
You right, in this case American version have no facts.
Yevgeniy Chizhikov.
Yevgeniy Chizhikov
Rodion Podorozhny wrote:
> This incident was described in "Soviet Aces" by N.G. Bodrikhin
> (1998, ISBN 5-89883-001-4). The author mentioned that he used records
> of TsAMO (Central Archive of MoD). Unfortuntely, he didn't cite particular
> file numbers. I don't think any Yaks were shot down otherwise
> it would be openly mentioned (especially in a book published
> long after 1985). I have descriptions of some other fights in which
> Soviet pilots took losses and those are Soviet
> accounts - so I don't think an official report would falsify
> the actual events to such an extent.
Hey Rodion, can you post some of the other incidents that happened at that time? It
is certainly interesting, and yet unknown pieces of history.
Do you know anything about Kamozin Pavel Mechailovich? Book states that he shot down
Junker, probably Ju-52, full of high ranked German officers. According to the book
Gering himself promised to kill Kamozin, and order "Graf", a german ace, to kill
Kamazin. Book states that Kamazin, shot down this "Graf". Perhaps this was Hermann
Graf, a German ace with 211 victories? Do you know anything about this fight?
Yevgeniy Chizhikov.
HarHill
Should we start these guys on the Korean war Sabre vs. Mig thing ? I am sure
we will now hear stories that the Soviet AF Migs shot down 3 Sabres for every
one loss of theirs <G>
Harold
ArtKramr
>Date: 10/26/98 11:46 PM PST
> According to the book
>Gering himself promised to kill Kamozin, and order "Graf", a german ace, to
>kill
>Kamazin. Book states that Kamazin, shot down this "Graf". Perhaps this was
>Hermann
>Graf, a German ace with 211 victories? Do you know anything about this fight?
>
>Yevgeniy Chizhikov.
"According to the book" ???? You are reading the wrong books. Besides, are you
still believing everything you read in books?
Rodion Podorozhny
> >certainly did not research too much of what became of Soviet
> >pilots who opened fire in the fight.
> >
>
Well, the fact is that Alexandr Ivanovich Koldunov
led that attack and he was not executed for participating in the
fight as the author suggests. So the fact is that the author
of the book was blatantly wrong when he said that the Soviet pilots
were shot, so the author of the book didn't actually check
into that, i.e. did a sloppy job of representing the facts
in a historically oriented publication. Since Koldunov
was very much alive and well well after the war then it is a fact
that the author of the book deviated from truth at least once.
In research papers of any kind, categorical statements appear
only when the author is absolutely certain about what he says,
otherwise phrases such as "it is reported", "it is believed",
"our conjecture is" etc. are used. The author of this book
did not bother. As a result, the credibility of this author is low.
It shows that the book is not in the league of research
reports (want to stress, it is because of sloppiness, not
because of wrong info, it is impossible to create
anything flawless, but you always have to watch your language).
Alexandr Koldunov is reported to have claimed that
his flight shot down (i.e. damaged and witnessed the destruction
beyond repair) 3 P-38s.
It is possible to find the reports of Alexandr
Koldunov and other witnesses in Central Archive of MoD
that is located in the city of Podol'sk near Moscow and
see whether the documents support the claim.
I don't have the exact reference to that document.
I do have exact references to some other reports.
Here is an example:
24.4.43
Two groups of fighters of 16th IAP consisting of 8 aircraft each
were escorting 12 bombers to the vicinity of Novorossijsk.
On route to the target, in the vicinity of village of Abinsk,
6 Me-109s were detected on the same course, behind; those were
not engaging and were staying aside. In 1-2 min 4 more Me-109s
appeared, and on approach to the target a group of up to 10
Me-109s was detected higher and in the direction of the sun.
The bombers were at the altitude of 2000-2500m. The CO of
the immediate cover group (R.P.: gruppa neposredstvennogo prikrytiya),
Major Kryuchkov, ordered the crews
to watch the enemy closely. In the vicinity of Novorossijsk
the 6 Me-109s conducted a decoy attack from behind to draw
away the attack group (R.P.: udarnaya gruppa) of Captain Pokryshkin.
After the bombers turned on combat course, the Me-109s started to attack bombers
from the direction of the sun pair by pair, opening fire
from 800-1000m.
The attack was repelled, one bomber was damaged and
went in a shallow dive in the direction of Gelendzhik escorted
by two fighters.
The second group of 6 bombers, flying in a column of
sections, was attacked by the 4 Me-109s. This attack was timely
repelled by the attack group of our fighters. The bombers were
attacked simultaneously from behind and below by the 4 Me-109s
and from above and behind by the 6 Me-109s, but the attacks were
repelled.
Single enemy fighters managed to get through the fighter
cover, but they were intercepted by the immediate cover group.
The result of this defensive fight was 5 Me-109s shot down and
1 Me-109 damaged. Our losses - 1 bomber damaged and 3 fighters
shot down [1].
1. TsAMO SSSR, file 319, opis' 4798, delo 69, list 39 and 40
Unfortunately, it costs too much money and effort to retrieve
this information. The archive does not give
you free access to the stalls and does not have search
services which means that you somehow should know
the exact reference. It would tremendously help
to have a friend who is an officer or a veteran of
the Soviet Armed Forces, they can get broader access to
the documents (though still it will be restricted).
You would go to such trouble only if you are writing
a book. If you randomly posting in a newsgroup and want to convince
somebody else in what happened over 50 years ago you certainly
would not go that far. So I leave you believing whatever
you want to believe (i.e. that Koldunov and his fellow
pilots were liars). Let's agree to differ.
Denes Bernad
Eagles" (Schiffer). He includes copies of several original U.S. documents,
so anyone interested in the official U.S. version might find there the
answer.
According to these documents, the final result of the air clash between 4
P-38s and 6 Yaks was 3 P-38s lost, 2 Yaks shot down, 2 other Yaks probably
shot down and a 5th one damaged.
Dénes
y.chi...@popmail.csuohio.edu
According to Soviet staistics, there were 8 Yaks, 2 were shot down when they
try to take off, but they are not related to 8 which were already in the air.
3 P-38 shot down, no Yaks were shot down. I don't know about damage.
EJGelsone
rhetoric. Samples:
>.....bla,bla,bla,bla,bla....
>,be kind and explain to us why
>Russian would asked you idiots for support ,especially at territory which
>had been liberated almost one month ago?
Yea, turn down help, sure. You don't need it yopu are the vaunted Soviet Army,
you only needed tens of thousands of Allied aircraft to help in the form of
lend Lease. Yea you did it all by yourself...........
>do you think that army able to
>push Germans thousands kilometres from Moscow need your help?
yes
>Mr.Edwinson is ordinary liar.
Based on what? Your personal recollections? Your extremely factual recounting
of history by the state controlled school system?
>The truth is that he and other pilots know
>exactly what they did.And the truth is that Yaks shut down P38 without
>losses.
ibid
Not trying to be rude, just don't think you were there. Just can't trust a
textbook lesson where the government writes al the textbooks.
Cut us some slack, "shit happens"
I noted that your side said that the offending Russioans were not shot, but you
go on to acknowledge that Russians were shot for various misdeeds on the
battlfield. Where does reality exist? If you acknowledge the possibility of
being shot for a mistake, why not in this instance?
Let's get back to a discussion of the facts and quit worrying about who revised
history the most.
Ed
EJGelsone
Everything below is pure unadulterated BULLS*&T!
Yevi..............get a grip. You even misidebtified the helicopters. They
were UH-60's. While I do not condone the mistaken shootdown and have said so
loudly on thi sNG, you are full of shit.
>
>Relax. There is certaintly possibility that attack was deliberate. However
>anyone who study history of USAF knows that USAF is sinonim of freindly fire.
>Why do you think American pilots were not allowed to engage in BVR combat in
>Gulf War? Probably for the same reason why special marks were put on the
>wings of Mustangs so own bomber they were escorting did not blast them out of
>the sky. Who knows how many such "BF-109" were recorded by bomber's gunners.
>Even Ameican solders run for cover when there were USAF in the area to strike
>Germans. You never knew when some trigger happy American pilot unload couple
>bombs on own troops. It seams amazing but in Gulf War F-15 with help of AWACS
>identify two SH-60 as Hinds. After pilot VISUALY confirm that this was Hinds
>he blasted own SH-60's out of the sky. American pilots also attacked own
>troops on the ground. No wonder that USAF did not allow American pilots
>engage in VBR. Otherwise there would be hundreds of American planes shot down
>and hundred of American dead.
>
EJGelsone
>It is stories like this which again question quality of American reporting.
>with exception of two Yaks over air field non were shot down. Americans lost
>3 P-38. Non of the Russian group of 8 was shot down. It was one of the elit
>units, were almost all involved had been aces with high scores.
And you were there to witness this fact. Is it not true that all forces,
German, Soviet, US, Japanese, virtually all combatants tended to misreport (no
attempt to condem, just fact) their kills? Couldn't the disparity be just
that?
NON OF THEM
>WERE SHOT BY NKVD!
So you say, but how many Soviet Citizens WERE KILLED by NKVD????
>a lot of ego and myths about Soviets.
And Soviet myths about the war and about the US.
>
>Yevgeniy Chizhikov.
Yevi,
You would get a lot further if you would get off your high horse. Your piss
ant attitude and constant prattling on about historical bullshit and your
constant attacks at the personal level start all the fussing. yevi, GET A
GRIP!
Ed
Arandjel
>>Mr.BenL, at first you have to know that city of Nis had been liberated on
>>14.10.44,and on 07.11.44
>>the nearest German unit was few hundred kilometres away from Nis.On
07.11.44
>>units from III Ukraine front crossed river Danube near city of Apatin
400
>>km to
>>the north).The unit which had been attacked was part of III Ukraine front
>>and that unit was on the march to the north.So,be kind and explain to us
why
>>Russian would asked you idiots for support ,especially at territory which
>>had been liberated almost one month ago?
>Could it possibly be because the local Soviet commander was also an idiot?
Jordan are you groggy or you are mind shallow from birth? Try to find
city of Nis on your map and after this river Drina and river Danube, where
was
at that moment the line of front. Measure the distance.What do you see?So,
there
are to reasons why Americans attack Russians near Nis:
1. They are idiots,they miss their targets few hundreds km.
2. Nice and smart person from their HQ ordered them to attack Russians.
Chose one of above mentioned.
>>Also,do you think that army able to
>>push Germans thousands kilometres from Moscow need your help?
>
>Well, the answer is obvious..... Without U.S. assistance the Soviets may
>not have been able to fight an offensive war beyond mid 1943 when they
>would have run out of food, powder, fuel and transport. Not to mention a
>hundred other essentials.
O.K. show us statistic records.Compare Russian production in that period and
your ,American assistance.Also, why did you send assistance?
>I see you are a well informed and open minded fellow.
Naturally, I regularly watch CNN and Voice of America.
>>Your Mr.Edwinson is ordinary liar.
>
>And you sir, are an ordinary psychopath. A rather common affliction in
>Yugoslavia these days.
Is it opinion of one expert for Yugoslavia? You have spent some time in
Serbia recently,met our people? Write some books about us? Please send to me
one copy of each( naturally I am going to pay).Please do not tell me that
you create
your opinion about us through TV news ! It will spoil my impression about
you.
>
>>The truth is that he and other pilots know
>>exactly what they did.And the truth is that Yaks shut down P38 without
>>losses.
>
>Naturally, you have proof to support this........ Yevginey at least
provides
>some documentation,
Which documentation provides Yevgeniy till the moment you have replayed to
my
post ? I did not see anything. What did you see?
What do you want?Documents from Serbian archives,historical bulletins?
Even I present them to you, are you able to understand anything?
> but you merely look at it as a chance to berate the USA.
Your pilots attacked Russian unit few hundreds km behind line of front and
I berate the USA?
.
>
>>Who ordered this attack?
>
>Obviously someone ill-informed.
>Nonetheless, it is a unfortunate fact
>of warfare that mistakes are made. What can be done about it? Not
>much, other than to learn from the mistake.
Ill informed? Mistake?Please,reduce using off alcohol.It will kill you
>
>>A butcher not a soldier.Probably the same person
>>who ordered attack on Serbian towns in spring 1944.
>
>I know, just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they're not really
>out to get you........
>
>
>>Do you know that in this
>>attack you killed more people in Belgrade than Germans on 06.04.1941?Why?
>>Because we did not expect that you morons would attack innocent
>>civilians.Did you destroy any valuable target during those attacks.No !Or
>>have wrong in case that we Serbian were your target.
>
>I'm curious, how many Serbians died in these attacks?
Attacks on Belgrade:
- 16/17.04.1944 (Orthodox Easter) ,1.900 killed Serbian civilians (there
are no records about injured) + 200 German soldiers. What did Americans
expect,that Geremas celebrate Orthodox Easter ?
To achieve surprise?No.Only Serbian were surprised,we did not expect allied
bombs on
Easter.Military results of attack,almost zero.Or you think that for killing
of 200 Germans is worth to kill 1.900 Serbs, destroy and damaged thousands
of Serbian homes.
- 21.04./ 18.05./06.06./ 03.09 more than 1.600. Serbian civilians. During
attack 21.04.44 concentration camp ”Sajmiste”was hit,180 prisoners
killed ( mistake, bad information's ?)
For a comparation Germans killed in Belgrade 2.300 on attacks 06/07.04.41
Attack on Leskovac( town in south Serbia) 06.07.44 ,1.300 civilians.At that
moment there were no German units in the city.Again ill informed,mistake?
What your sources say about those attacks?How many Serbians you
killed?Or they do not mentioned anything.
>
>While we're discussing such matters, do you care to speculate how
>many innocent Croatians, Bosnians and ethnic Albanians have deliberately
>died at the hands of Serbians in the past several years?
I suppose that you have some records,already. I suggest that you show
records from sources like U.N., neutral counties (Japan,Finland,Romania).
Also show records about deliberately killed Serbs.
If you wont to be correct do not use expression ”Serbians” for Serbs who
live more than thousand year in Croatia and Bosnia. Serbians are Serbs who
lives in Serbia. ”Bosnian” do not exist. In ex Bosnia and Herzegovina live :
Serbs,Croats and Muslims(their forefathers were Serbs who betrayed Christian
belief and took Islam).
Hm,when we speak about deliberately killed civilians do you know how many
Serbs had been killed during WW II. I tell you.More than 1.500.000. Of this
1.000.000.are civilians and 500.000 as members of resistance,Cetniks and
Partisans .Do you know who killed majority of 1.000.000. Serbs, civilians?
Croats and Muslims. Only in concentration camp ”Jasenovac” in Croatia they
kill more than 600.000 Serbs.
Among Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia live fresh remembrance on those crimes and
they did not want to wait
for their murderers again in 1991/92.
>Pardon me (and I'm sure I speak for many on this newsgroup) if I don't
>feel much sorrow for a nation who has practiced a policy of ethnic
>genocide without a hint of remorse. Do you as a Serbian support the
>actions of your government? It occurs to me that one should be angry
>with any needless bloodshed.
We do not need and do not expect your sorrow.Sorrow from who?From people who
built their might(temporary) on blood ,tears and sweat the rest of the
world.We Serbs saw raise and fall of many empires,
Ottomans,Austria-Hungarians...
Today U.S.A. are No. 1 in the world,tomorrow who knows ,Japan,China or
somebody else .There were no everlasting empires.So,we have to survive and
wait.
I do not support Mr.Milosevic but I do support our right to defend our
lives,our homes and our country.
Arandjel
EJGelsone wrote in message <19981030210952...@ng06.aol.com>...
>Typical personal attack , you lose credibility by the basic style of your
>rhetoric. Samples:
>
>>.....bla,bla,bla,bla,bla....
Lose credibility,gain credibility?Hm.I suppose that I lose credibility
when I use expressions like idiots,morons for Americans.Style is only a
form. Essence is that you are not able to accept that the rest of the
world,involved in W.W.II have different opinion on your participation.
Especially in European Theatre.
>
>>,be kind and explain to us why
>>Russian would asked you idiots for support ,especially at territory which
>>had been liberated almost one month ago?
>˜
>Yea, turn down help, sure. You don't need it you are the vaunted Soviet
Army,
>you only needed tens of thousands of Allied aircraft to help in the form of
>lend Lease. Yea you did it all by yourself...........
Mr.EJGelsone you even do not distinguish Russian from Serbs.I am a Serb not
a Russian.Russian are fraternal nation,we have the same background, the same
Orthodox belief, but we are not the same.You have elementary omission in
your education.
We do not receive any American combat aircraft during W.W.II,only your bombs
over our heads.From Britain Tito received 30 Spitfires and 30
Hurricanes,from Stalin 100 YAK 3/9 and 100 IL 2.
Yes,we did so much by ourselves.At the moment when in Italy your V army and
British VIII army supported with thousands of combat aircraft and fleet
could not
break the defence of German X army(November 43) ,Russian struggle against
more than 200 Axis divisions and we Serbs struggle in Yugoslavia against
400.000 Germans, 90.000 Bulgarians,40.000 Hungarians and 200.000 Ustasa (if
you do not know Ustasa are Croats,as Himler said ”their most faithful
allied”).
At the beginning of 1945 Americans were still in Italy. Germans had 28
division in Italy and in Yugoslavia 20 divisions against Serbs.
You Americans get through films wrong idea that you have saved the world.
In Pacific area your efforts were precedent ,but in Europe significance of
your efforts is far bellow Russian
or Britain.
>>do you think that army able to
>>push Germans thousands kilometres from Moscow need your help?
>
>yes
Wrong.
>
>>Mr.Edwinson is ordinary liar.
>
>Based on what? Your personal recollections? Your extremely factual
recounting
>of history by the state controlled school system?
I can t remember lesson in my history book named ” P-38 vs. YAK-3 near Nis
on 07.11.44”.Do you have this lesson in your book?Yes?What a detailed
description in American school books!!
What do you think who watched from the ground what had happened in the
air, and who saw destroyed aicrafts on the ground? Eskimo,Americans or
Serbians?So, Eskimo put on the paper remembrance on event near Nis in
Serbia.
>Not trying to be rude, just don't think you were there.
I did not mentioned that I was there.My presens at the spot will be in
encounter with lows of physics.
>Just can't trust a textbook lesson where the government writes al the
textbooks.
Do not be frivolous.Lesson about your stupid action near Nis,fanny.Do not
underestimate yourselves.
>
>Cut us some slack, "shit happens"
>
>I noted that your side said that the offending Russians were not shot, but
you
>go on to acknowledge that Russians were shot for various misdeeds on the
>battlfield. Where does reality exist? If you acknowledge the possibility
of
>being shot for a mistake, why not in this instance?
Because Serbians (pardon Eskimo) did not see a fall or wrecks of Russian
aircrafts,only American.
It is not shame that your guys had been shot by much better and experienced
pilots as Mr.Koldunov was.
Why are you so stubborn?Just accept thing that your pilots met fighter
legends.
BenL 10
entitled :
Combat Aircraft of World War II
so I am sure that any Russian accounts were still tucked away and not available
to the writer.
Acknowledgments are given to Col. Edwinson and a William Blurock who reportedly
downed one of the Yaks while in a stall condition and a few yards under the
Russian. If this is true then it certainly a tough trick to do if the Yaks
were just taking off.
Of course our Serbian friend will perceive it as more American lies but then He
comes across as a real anal orifice, so who cares what he thinks!
That nobody was shot for this is logical, after all the Russian pilots were
just protecting their own. However, I can not help but think that perhaps the
Russians only reported this to the Americans in the hope that something would
be done to Edwinson. After all, apologies and condolences can only go so far.
Many questions remain unanswered, such as did any of the pilots shot down
survive? If any Americans survived, were they returned?
Were the Americans lost or was it just a tragic mistake?
I for one do not know and more than likely will never find out, especially if
some posters are to narrow minded to consider all possibilities.
Ben
ben...@aol.com (Ben Levario)
Yevgeniy Chizhikov
BenL 10 wrote:
> That nobody was shot for this is logical, after all the Russian pilots were
> just protecting their own. However, I can not help but think that perhaps the
> Russians only reported this to the Americans in the hope that something would
> be done to Edwinson. After all, apologies and condolences can only go so far.
> Many questions remain unanswered, such as did any of the pilots shot down
> survive? If any Americans survived, were they returned?
> Were the Americans lost or was it just a tragic mistake?
> I for one do not know and more than likely will never find out, especially if
> some posters are to narrow minded to consider all possibilities.
According to Russian archives two were shot down while they were taking off from
the air field. NON were shot down in combat. Americans state two aircraft shot down
and two as "PROBABLE". Which means they have no clue weather aircraft was shot
down, only the fact of firing on the Russian aircraft. You just have to love
"probable" kills invented by Americans. Just like US bombers destroyed more German
aircraft in their "probable kills" than Germany made during W.W.II.
Yevgeniy Chizhikov.
Arandjel
BenL 10 wrote in message <19981031163511...@ng78.aol.com>...
>The different version that I first posted came from a book published in
1974
>entitled :
>Combat Aircraft of World War II
>so I am sure that any Russian accounts were still tucked away and not
available
>to the writer.
>Acknowledgments are given to Col. Edwinson and a William Blurock who
reportedly
> downed one of the Yaks while in a stall condition and a few yards under
the
>Russian. If this is true then it certainly a tough trick to do if the Yaks
>were just taking off.
>Of course our Serbian friend will perceive it as more American lies but
then He
>comes across as a real anal orifice, so who cares what he thinks!
While fighters just take off they are slow.Correct?So the attacing pilot has
a
chance to see what he attack. The shape of YAK is unique.Does YAK reseble
to ME 109 or to FW 190? Does read stars on his wings resemble to the German
black cross?
What would Germans fighters do at the airfield few hundred kilometres behind
the line of front?Otto Skorceni action? Ha,ha.
So,all of this return me at the beginning of the story when I stated that
your pilots knew
exactly what they did.There is another possibility,that they are mind
retarded,unable to distinguish shapes and colours.
Yes, you have vrite, I perceive it as a lie.
C.C. Jordan
I suspect that the only way to rid ourselves of this demented
Serb is to deposit him in the killfile with a few other noteworthy
trolls.
What this fellow can't seem to understand is that his type of
hate filled irrational thinking is what makes Serbia little more than
a 12th century feudal state. Vicious, unforgiving and doomed to
a squalid existence of violence and destruction.
Rather than attempt a rational exchange of ideas with this man,
I would prefer to stick needles in my eyes.
C.C. Jordan
Now online - Flying Prototypes by Erik Shilling:
The Curtiss YP-37 and the Bell YFM-1.
http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/index.html
http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/9485/index.html
The "Planes and Pilots of WWII" website.
An online WWII aviation history magazine.
A member of the WWII Web-ring.
"In reality, there exists only fact and fiction. Opinions result from
the lack of the former and reliance on the latter."
BenL 10
>Date: Sat, Oct 31, 1998 19:49 EST
>Message-id: <71gb9p$ce6$1...@SOLAIR2.EUnet.yu>
Well, we all know what comes out of anal orifices!
ben...@aol.com (Ben Levario)
ArtKramr
>Of course our Serbian friend will perceive it as more American lies but
>>then He
>>>comes across as a real anal orifice, so who cares what he thinks!
Gee CC, I find it hard ot believe that any Yak could stand up to a P-38. Not
too likely, don't you agree? (wink wink)
Arandjel
>According to Russian archives two were shot down while they were taking off
from
>the air field. NON were shot down in combat. Americans state two aircraft
shot down
>and two as "PROBABLE". Which means they have no clue weather aircraft was
shot
>down, only the fact of firing on the Russian aircraft. You just have to
love
>"probable" kills invented by Americans. Just like US bombers destroyed more
German
>aircraft in their "probable kills" than Germany made during W.W.II.
Mr.Pierre Closterman,famous French ace in his " Big circus" mentioned such
ridiculous reports
of American crews.
SCStults
>and hundred of American dead.
>
>Yevgeniy Chizhikov.>>
OK. . .I'm violating my own commitment here to no longer respond to this trash.
But I must. Here is a guy from a country that was still putting vacuum tubes
in its best radars in the mid-70s. Here is a guy from a country who ran
peasants across mine fields in WWII and sent thousands of Cossaks to certain
and useless death against German machine-gun positions in WWII. A country led
by megolomaniacs for decades. While making absurd statements about exagerated
US friendly fire casualties, he never mentions the downing of the KAL airliner
by Soviet interceptors over Sakhalin Island because of a totally inflexible
command structure and such fear of pilot defections that they would not allow
their fighter pilots to operate on international frequencies. A country who's
early warning system could not even detect a Cessna 150 until it landed in Red
Square !! A country that knew it had to possess a five to one superiority in
tanks and aircraft to NATO because its weapons and training were inferior. A
country which, to all intents and purposes, was and remains a third-world
economy.
So here's this twit desperately and constantly trying to find any pretext to
discredit the USA.
And since he can find so little of real substance, he resorts to falsehoods and
exagerations.
Well, piss off, Yevgeney, because your data sucks and so do you.
SCStults
Yevgeniy Chizhikov
ArtKramr wrote:
> Gee CC, I find it hard ot believe that any Yak could stand up to a P-38. Not
> too likely, don't you agree? (wink wink)
I happy to see that you understand that you trolling :)
Yevgeniy Chizhikov.
Yevgeniy Chizhikov
SCStults wrote:
> OK. . .I'm violating my own commitment here to no longer respond to this trash.
> But I must. Here is a guy from a country that was still putting vacuum tubes
> in its best radars in the mid-70s.
Well, before typing BS, you should AT LEAST try to read something. Obviously, you
referring to Mig-25. Mig-25 designed in late 1950's and first flew in 1964. As far
as I know all American fighters then used tubes. In 1970's Mig-25 was upgraded.
Second, what kind of difference does it make what is used to achieve results?
Mig-25 had one of the best radars at that time, period.
> Here is a guy from a country who ran
> peasants across mine fields in WWII and sent thousands of Cossaks to certain
> and useless death against German machine-gun positions in WWII.
BS. You mistaken Germans. It was the Germans who run Russian civilians and POW
across the minefields. Russian Army DID storm across the minefields, but there is a
hard LOGIC behind that. Traveling through the minefields, you would suffer LESS
death, than if you let enemy prepare positions for time you would spend by removing
mines or looking for different way. Remember, minefields usually close the weak
place in enemy defense, it is only logical to strike there. Yes, it is cruel to do
so to own solders, but there is HARD CORE LOGIC behind those decisions. I know such
concepts are hard to understand for civilized Americans, this is why American units
stop for a nap, during their first night of attack against Iraq. Very smart!!! The
commander of this units should have been hang by his balls for such smart
decisions. Luckily enemy was totally incompetent, so he did not took advantage to
cut some Americans thoughts. Despite what you can say about Soviet Army, it was the
only Army in 1941 that manage to stop Wermacht. Neither French, British, or anyone
else could do it. American did not even had an army even them, which we could
discuss. Soviet Army was THE ONLY army that stop and defeated Wermacht FIRST.
Knowing the performance of the American Army in W.W.II, I would not even rise my
voice. Perhaps you should read about performance of US Army in North Western
Europe. It sucked. I will post some statistics in another message.
> A country led
> by megolomaniacs for decades.
Look at your own.
> While making absurd statements about exagerated
> US friendly fire casualties, he never mentions the downing of the KAL airliner
> by Soviet interceptors over Sakhalin Island because of a totally inflexible
> command structure and such fear of pilot defections that they would not allow
> their fighter pilots to operate on international frequencies.
You should do read more about the subject. Pilot wanted to blast Americans, he
never reported plane to be a passenger.
> A country who's
> early warning system could not even detect a Cessna 150 until it landed in Red
> Square !!
One guy landed his Cessna into second floor window of the White House. Cessna was
detected, Mig-29 got in sight, but no one had gots to make another KAL. If you like
to point fingers, you should review your own state of air defenses. THOUSANDS of
flight using those Cessnas bring tons of drugs, weapons, illegal alliance to US.
Comparing to US air space, Soviets DID had superb control over air space.
> A country that knew it had to possess a five to one superiority in
> tanks and aircraft to NATO because its weapons and training were inferior. A
> country which, to all intents and purposes, was and remains a third-world
> economy.
You need to read more about the subject. Back in those days, Soviet pilots flew no
less hours than their Nato counterparts. You need to read more about the Soviet
Army tactics. Soviet had army and economy designed to win global W.W.II type wars.
Americans knew that they have no choice to stop Soviets, this is why they always
incested on nuclear retaliation in the face of Soviet conventional attack. Second,
reading about Soviet economy would had be also nice. If USSR was third world
country, it was most developed and richest third world country in the World. May be
it is hard for you to believe, but Russians lived better than almost the rest of
the World. Only few Western European countries lived better. In terms of life
expectancy, education, literacy, USSR either equal or exceeded West.
> So here's this twit desperately and constantly trying to find any pretext to
> discredit the USA.
Like it is hard to do.
> And since he can find so little of real substance, he resorts to falsehoods and
> exagerations.
Really?
> Well, piss off, Yevgeney, because your data sucks and so do you.
Because you have no data?
Yevgeniy Chizhikov.
Lorne D. Gilsig
The nation you are talking about no longer exists.
As good as Soviet equipment may of been it did not defend them against dissolution, and
by draining away national wealth, may of even hastened it.
As good a fighting man the Soviet soldier might of been he is now untrained,
unequipped, and unfed. Russian formation are not battle ready either against a
domestic or foreign enemy. The Russian Air Force is now selling joy rides to
westerners for hard cash. The USAF isn't selling rides on F-15's, though the Space
Shuttle appears to be open for passengers now.
As poor a soldier as American's make, as poor as our equipment is, as bad as our
leadership may be (and it hard to argue that point right now), we still exists and are
able to project power and force decisions in world politics (Bosnia, Kosovo, Israel).
If the proof of a point is in the results, then I think our system was slightly better
than the Soviet system. We have been in business for over 222 years and the Soviets
folded after less than 80.
Its time to put nostalgia aside and deal with things as they are.
Lorne D. Gilsig
HarHill
and concepts they exhibited in the 20's and mid-30's were far superior to
almost anything the West had. Then Stalin purged his military and eliminated
the very leaders and thinkers he would need to fight a war only a few years
away. If he had not done this the outcome of WW2 and post war years would have
been far different then what history had showed.
Harold
SCStults
by denigrating American or any other country and/or trying exagerate the
accomplishments of your own. You and Venik will just have to go out and
accomplish something in life to feel you have worth. There is no other path to
that end.
SCStults
Erik Shilling
>
>Well, we all know what comes out of anal orifices!
Ben especially the Bovine type.
Erik
al...@ix.netcom.com
> <<Otherwise there would be hundreds of American planes shot down
> >and hundred of American dead.
> >
> >Yevgeniy Chizhikov.>>
>
> OK. . .I'm violating my own commitment here to no longer respond to this trash.
> But I must. Here is a guy from a country that was still putting vacuum tubes
> in its best radars in the mid-70s.
Oh, sure, that's a fool-proof argument. And US space shuttles still use CRT
displays. So?
> Here is a guy from a country who ran
> peasants across mine fields in WWII and sent thousands of Cossaks to certain
> and useless death against German machine-gun positions in WWII.
So did Poland. I don't see you criticizing them. It was a dire situation, and they
were doing whatever they could.
> A country led
> by megolomaniacs for decades.
Tsk, tsk...
> While making absurd statements about exagerated
> US friendly fire casualties, he never mentions the downing of the KAL airliner
> by Soviet interceptors over Sakhalin Island because of a totally inflexible
> command structure and such fear of pilot defections that they would not allow
> their fighter pilots to operate on international frequencies.
Has nothing to do with it. PVO Strany had strict orders to shoot any intruder down.
A kind of J. T. Kirk attitude. Fire phasers first, ask later.
> A country who's
> early warning system could not even detect a Cessna 150 until it landed in Red
> Square !!
How about same Cessna crashing into White House?
> A country that knew it had to possess a five to one superiority in
> tanks and aircraft to NATO because its weapons and training were inferior.
No, it was the US and NATO that never agreed to make a commitment to never use
nukes first. Exactly because they knew very well that they won't repel a
conventional attack. Five to one superiority in numbers is nothing to sneeze at,
after all.
> A
> country which, to all intents and purposes, was and remains a third-world
> economy.
Crisises come and go. Long-term geopolitical aims remain virtually unchanged.
> So here's this twit desperately and constantly trying to find any pretext to
> discredit the USA.
> And since he can find so little of real substance, he resorts to falsehoods and
> exagerations.
You didn't post any facts with real substance to refute his claims.
> Well, piss off, Yevgeney, because your data sucks and so do you.
At least he posted some data, correct or otherwise. You didn't manage even that.
SCStults
> early warning system could not even detect a Cessna 150 until it landed in
Red
> Square !!
How about same Cessna crashing into White House?
>>
Well, it wasn't a Yak, for God's sake ! A Cessna 150 flying over D.C. is
pretty common. How common was a 150 over Moscow at the time?
al...@ix.netcom.com
> On Sun, 01 Nov 1998 15:58:24 -0500, al...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> >SCStults wrote:
>
> >> A country who's
> >> early warning system could not even detect a Cessna 150 until it landed in Red
> >> Square !!
> >
> >How about same Cessna crashing into White House?
> >
>
> I would not have used that retort. Why? Because the situations are so
> vastly different as to be opposites.
You're missing the point. SCStults asserted that that Cessna was not detected when in
fact it was, early on. A Mig-29 was sent to shadow it. Whether or not it wasn't shut
down is another question.
> The young lad who landed in Red Square eluded what was supposed to be the
> most formidable air defense system on the planet. He flew several hundred miles
> across Soviet air space unmolested.
Unmolested, yes. Undetected, no.
> The screwball who crashed into the White House took off from a local airport,
> and there is no air defense system in operation protecting Washington. Moreover,
> he was tracked the entire time, his venturing into resticted airspace was
> observed. However, it is not the policy of the DOD or FAA to send up
> interceptors to gun down Cessna 152's. At least not yet. Can you imagine
> Secret Service personel patrolling the roof of the White House with Stinger
> missiles?
Are you sure there are no Stingers on that roof? As if Secret Service advertises
their defense systems.
C.C. Jordan
>SCStults wrote:
>> A country who's
>> early warning system could not even detect a Cessna 150 until it landed in Red
>> Square !!
>
>How about same Cessna crashing into White House?
>
I would not have used that retort. Why? Because the situations are so
vastly different as to be opposites.
The young lad who landed in Red Square eluded what was supposed to be the
most formidable air defense system on the planet. He flew several hundred miles
across Soviet air space unmolested.
The screwball who crashed into the White House took off from a local airport,
and there is no air defense system in operation protecting Washington. Moreover,
he was tracked the entire time, his venturing into resticted airspace was
observed. However, it is not the policy of the DOD or FAA to send up
interceptors to gun down Cessna 152's. At least not yet. Can you imagine
Secret Service personel patrolling the roof of the White House with Stinger
missiles? That'll increase tourism....... Besides, a Cessna 152 has IR signature
somewhat less than a fat tourist's ass. So that won't work. The Secret Service
agents Sig 9mm pistols are less than worthless in this case, being a greater
danger to the civilians than to an aircraft.... What to do?
I have it ! Barrage balloons ! Why not? It was good enough for Buckingham
palace, it should be good enough for Willy.
My regards,
My regards,
C.C. Jordan
>C.C. Jordan wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 01 Nov 1998 15:58:24 -0500, al...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>
>> >SCStults wrote:
>>
>> >> A country who's
>> >> early warning system could not even detect a Cessna 150 until it landed in Red
>> >> Square !!
>> >
>> >How about same Cessna crashing into White House?
>> >
>>
>> I would not have used that retort. Why? Because the situations are so
>> vastly different as to be opposites.
>
>You're missing the point. SCStults asserted that that Cessna was not detected when in
>fact it was, early on. A Mig-29 was sent to shadow it. Whether or not it wasn't shut
>down is another question.
I suspect that SCStults is correct. Did the Soviet's claim they detected the
Cessna? Of course they would claim that ! Yet their lack of action betrays
otherwise. Don't you think they would have made some effort to make
visual contact with the pilot and force him to land? Would it not make
sense to attempt to turn the Cessna around?
Besides, how exactly does a MiG-29 shadow an aircraft that cruises at a
speed 60 knots slower than the MiG's stall speed? Sounds mighty fishy
to me.
>
>> The young lad who landed in Red Square eluded what was supposed to be the
>> most formidable air defense system on the planet. He flew several hundred miles
>> across Soviet air space unmolested.
>
>Unmolested, yes. Undetected, no.
I suspect that Soviet Officials realized that the Cessna had crossed into
Soviet air space shortly after the teenaged pilot had set the parking brake
in Red Square.
>
>> The screwball who crashed into the White House took off from a local airport,
>> and there is no air defense system in operation protecting Washington. Moreover,
>> he was tracked the entire time, his venturing into resticted airspace was
>> observed. However, it is not the policy of the DOD or FAA to send up
>> interceptors to gun down Cessna 152's. At least not yet. Can you imagine
>> Secret Service personel patrolling the roof of the White House with Stinger
>> missiles?
>
>Are you sure there are no Stingers on that roof? As if Secret Service advertises
>their defense systems.
I'll tell you what, fly over the White House, take a look and you tell me. :-)
John Campbell
<snip>
> > However, it is not the policy of the DOD or FAA to send up
> > interceptors to gun down Cessna 152's. At least not yet. Can you imagine
> > Secret Service personel patrolling the roof of the White House with Stinger
> > missiles?
>
> Are you sure there are no Stingers on that roof? As if Secret Service advertises
> their defense systems.
I have some recollection of mention of Stingers on the roof at (or just
after)
the incident.
Anyway wasn't it a C172 in Red Square.
Regards
JC
Yevgeniy Chizhikov
C.C. Jordan wrote:
> I suspect that SCStults is correct. Did the Soviet's claim they detected the
> Cessna? Of course they would claim that !
Actually pilot of Cessna himself told that he saw Soviet military aircraft near him, which
maintained visual contact for a while.
> Besides, how exactly does a MiG-29 shadow an aircraft that cruises at a
> speed 60 knots slower than the MiG's stall speed? Sounds mighty fishy
> to me.
Is it impossible to fly rings about the Cessna?
> I suspect that Soviet Officials realized that the Cessna had crossed into
> Soviet air space shortly after the teenaged pilot had set the parking brake
> in Red Square.
Actually he was detected before he entered Soviet Air Space. Because no one wanted another
KAL, PVO started to contact Moscow, instead of making decisions on their own. During that
time, Cessna had leave Soviet PVO belts, which are about 200 km wide, and after that flew
undetected to Moscow. Tens years before that, those guy would had been simply shot down,
and no one would knew what happened.
Yevgeniy Chizhikov.
BenL 10
>"probable" kills invented by Americans. Just like US bombers destroyed more
>German
>aircraft in their "probable kills" than Germany made during W.W.II.
>
It was not a case of probable kill, it was more like 50 guys shooting at one
German and when he blows up, they all claimed that they did it.
ben...@aol.com (Ben Levario)
al...@ix.netcom.com
> I suspect that SCStults is correct. Did the Soviet's claim they detected the
> Cessna? Of course they would claim that ! Yet their lack of action betrays
> otherwise. Don't you think they would have made some effort to make
> visual contact with the pilot and force him to land? Would it not make
> sense to attempt to turn the Cessna around?
>
> Besides, how exactly does a MiG-29 shadow an aircraft that cruises at a
> speed 60 knots slower than the MiG's stall speed? Sounds mighty fishy
> to me.
Exactly! How same MiG-29 can force it to land if it keeps blowing by?
> I suspect that Soviet Officials realized that the Cessna had crossed into
> Soviet air space shortly after the teenaged pilot had set the parking brake
> in Red Square.
You can suspect whatever you want. Truth is PVO detected it but didn't wanna have another
KAL on their hand. And paid for their indecisiveness. Lotsa people were fires starting
with the PVO commander.
paul...@my-dejanews.com
scst...@aol.com (SCStults) wrote:
> << > A country who's
> > early warning system could not even detect a Cessna 150 until it landed in
> Red
> > Square !!
>
Soviet early warning seemed to work pretty well.
Two 'Fencers' were directed to intercept the Cessna
before it entered Soviet aerospace. They classified
it as 'harmless' and after that nobody paid any attention to it.
Both 'Fencers' and their abnormal manouver were observed by
Finnish radars a few moments after the Cessna had disappeared
from radarscreen.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Stephen Harding
> at that moment the line of front. Measure the distance.What do you see?So,
> there
> are to reasons why Americans attack Russians near Nis:
>
> 1. They are idiots,they miss their targets few hundreds km.
> 2. Nice and smart person from their HQ ordered them to attack Russians.
>
> Chose one of above mentioned.
Yes these are indeed possibilities. It is also possible the Russian commander
co-ordinating the attack was an idiot as well.
You've brought up some good points concerning this event. I attempted to look
through some on-line archives to see if I could get any further info on this event,
but failed. Probably have to go to the USAF archives in Ohio to find out.
> >>Your Mr.Edwinson is ordinary liar.
Wasn't Edwinson the P-38 commander? If so, he didn't order the mission, he just
flew it. Perhaps, as you have pointed out, badly. I have doubts that he would
have "lied" about the mission, but he certainly could have erred in determining
damage inflicted. Someone somewhere would have noticed three missing P-38's though.
He certainly couldn't lie about that!
> you create
> your opinion about us through TV news ! It will spoil my impression about
> you.
How else am I supposed to get an opinion of world events? I'll presume you're
not being hypocritical and have gathered your negative opinions of Americans
from having lived or visited here at some time. Do you also have opinions
regarding Russians, Chinese, Indonesians, Nigerians, et. al. from frequent
personal interaction? If you do have opinions regarding other areas of the
world, you must accumulate one heck of a lot of frequent flyer miles!
All media has some bias. That's why it's important to get information from varied
sources.
> >>Who ordered this attack?
[...]
> >>A butcher not a soldier.Probably the same person
> >>who ordered attack on Serbian towns in spring 1944.
[...]
> >>attack you killed more people in Belgrade than Germans on 06.04.1941?Why?
> >>Because we did not expect that you morons would attack innocent
> >>civilians.Did you destroy any valuable target during those attacks.No !Or
> >>have wrong in case that we Serbian were your target.
Why do you have to believe this was an attack planned to kill as many Serbs as
possible? Do you think there was something for American policy-makers to gain by
risking aircraft and aircrew in an effort to kill *allied* Serbs?
Talk to some French, Dutch and Belgians about getting bombed by allies! I
suspect the numbers of killed in this category far exceeds number of Serbs. It's
unfortunate you have to think of such tragedies as personal attacks against your
country or you yourself. I can actually feel your hatred for me in the words you
write!
> I do not support Mr.Milosevic but I do support our right to defend our
> lives,our homes and our country.
You may not support him, but Mr. Milosevic seems quite adept at using your
nationalistic sentiments for his gain.
Such feelings are universal and easy to understand. I'm really not your enemy
though. This is a military aviation newsgroup. You'd have scored more points if
you left your nationalism at home and only put forth the valid points you stated.
Let the other guy be a jerk by introducing nationalism as *an answer* to some
troubling questions and perspective!
SMH
JAsh735166
>> speed 60 knots slower than the MiG's stall speed? Sounds mighty fishy
>> to me.
>
>Exactly! How same MiG-29 can force it to land if it keeps blowing by?
Don't know about the Soviets, but we (GCI
that is) had a tactic of shadowing bug smashers with F-106's, or any of the
interceptor aircraft. We'd set the fighters up in a race track opposite each
other. As one fighter was going past the target, going as slow as possible,
the other would be turning in behind and begin to slow down. The first guy
would clean up and accellerate out, making a 180 turn, flying down the opposite
track, and then beginning his turn back onto target heading as the second guy
was going past the target and beginning his accelleration and turn. If you
couldn't make him land, at least you could keep him under observation at all
times. I'd guess the Soviets would have used a similar tactic.
Jim Ashford
"We have met the enemy, and he is us!" Pogo
Arandjel
>Yes these are indeed possibilities. It is also possible the Russian
commander
>co-ordinating the attack was an idiot as well.
You still believe in possibility that Russians made order form for this
attack.
Was it practice that Russian commanders ordered U.S. air
support,especially support of tactical significance?At that moment Russian
had complete air superiority in this part of Europe.With hundreds of support
aircrafts as IL2/10,PE2,TU2 (with experienced crews) included in Air Army
which support III Ukraine Front why would they ask Americans to attack non
existing Germans few hundreds km behind line of front?Such order could came
only from Front commander.Whell ,on that day he and his stuff were near
Yugoslav - Hungarian border where III Ukraine Front forced river
Danube.So,Germans were there, not in Nis.
>You've brought up some good points concerning this event. I attempted to
look
>through some on-line archives to see if I could get any further info on
this event,
>but failed. Probably have to go to the USAF archives in Ohio to find out.
Please,let me know the results.
>
>> >>Your Mr.Edwinson is ordinary liar.
>
>Wasn't Edwinson the P-38 commander? If so, he didn't order the mission, he
just
>flew it.
> Perhaps, as you have pointed out, badly. I have doubts that he
would
>have "lied" about the mission, but he certainly could have erred in
determining
>damage inflicted.
So,Americans never lie,thay only "erred".Especially military personal.Was
situation on Balkan front
familiar to U.S. military leaders?Did they have rec. flight over
Serbia,agents on terrain,did they intercept messages between Germans HQs,did
they receive informations from Serbians and Russians? It is unbelievable
that
persons in charge in US Army did not know where was line of front and where
were Germans exactly. Nobody in this group answered me what German tank
unit and German fighters would do on airfield few hundred km behind line of
front?How did Mr.Edwinson and his superiors explain it?
>Someone somewhere would have noticed three missing P-38's though.
>He certainly couldn't lie about that!
Tell me ,what Serbians,who were observers ,sow on the ground.Wrecks of
U.F.O.?Twin engine .U.F.O. with white star.
Yes,Mr.Edwinson couldn t lie about that.It is out of mind that Russian ace
with 36 victories shot down any American.It is possible that he shot
Germans,but American,never !He could manage to shot down Me 109 or Fw 190,
,but P38 driven by "famous" aces,no chance.Why it is not
possible?Simply,they are Americans.
>> you create
>> your opinion about us through TV news ! It will spoil my impression about
>> you.
>
>How else am I supposed to get an opinion of world events?
If you do not see other ways to get an opinion,what can I say to you?
> I'll presume you're
>not being hypocritical and have gathered your negative opinions of
Americans
>from having lived or visited here at some time. Do you also have opinions
>regarding Russians, Chinese, Indonesians, Nigerians, et. al. from frequent
>personal interaction? If you do have opinions regarding other areas of the
>world, you must accumulate one heck of a lot of frequent flyer miles!
I am sure that average Serbian has far more contacts with foreigners and
travel abroad than average American.
As you know we live in small country which make 60 % of B.N.P. through
export -import.Near 8 % of Serbia's work in W.Europe and
C.I.S..Nice opportunities for personal interaction.
In last few years more than one hundred thousands young Serbians left Serbia
and went to the N.America.
>All media has some bias. That's why it's important to get information from
varied
>sources.
I agree.
>> >>Who ordered this attack?
>[...]
>> >>A butcher not a soldier.Probably the same person
>> >>who ordered attack on Serbian towns in spring 1944.
>[...]
>> >>attack you killed more people in Belgrade than Germans on
06.04.1941?Why?
>> >>Because we did not expect that you morons would attack innocent
>> >>civilians.Did you destroy any valuable target during those attacks.No
!Or
>> >>have wrong in case that we Serbian were your target.
>
>Why do you have to believe this was an attack planned to kill as many Serbs
as
>possible? Do you think there was something for American policy-makers to
gain by
>risking aircraft and aircrew in an effort to kill *allied* Serbs?
>Talk to some French, Dutch and Belgians about getting bombed by allies! I
>suspect the numbers of killed in this category far exceeds number of Serbs.
It's
>unfortunate you have to think of such tragedies as personal attacks against
your
>country or you yourself.
How can you explain those air attacks over Serbian towns in 1944.From
military point they were pitiful.
Serbia was agrar country,without any sirious ind.production for German war
machine.No oil, no important
mines.In six attacks Americans killed in Belgrade more than 3.500
Serbians,destroyed and damaged thousands of homes.During those attacks few
hundred Germans were killed,damaged few bridges and railroads.Bridges and
railways repaired, few hundred Germans in graves.What about Serbians?Did
Americans prepare area for further invasion?No.Everything was settled
earlier.This part of Europe was inside Russian sphere.
How can you explain that first American attack was on Orthodox
Easter,16./17.04.44?Result 1.900 Serbians killed and 200 Germans.Obviously
Germans did not celebrate Easter on the same day.
Please,check in Ohio archive what reports said about those attacks.Also
check, what they said about city of Leskovac where Americans killed 1.300
Serbians and 0 (zero) Germans.
What is vindication for those attacks? To show muscles to Serbians and
Russians?Something like Dresden?
As for American policy makers ,one thing is sure,that serious country has
long term planing.I am convinced that US policy is anti Serbian from last
stage of WW II till now,leading by double standards.
Did you think about following:
When terrorist and separatist among Albanians start fighitings in
Kosovo,Serbia as sovereign country under constitution and lows use force
against them, U.S. threaten Serbians with air attacs.
Why U.S. did not use the same threat towards Turkish government when they
fight against Kurds,when they chase them inside other sovereign
country(Iraq).Double standards ,yes or not?Pro Turkish and anti
Serbian,correct?
> I can actually feel your hatred for me in the words you write!
Only what can you feel through my words is disdain towards some Americans in
this group.
>> I do not support Mr.Milosevic but I do support our right to defend our
>> lives,our homes and our country.
>
>You may not support him, but Mr. Milosevic seems quite adept at using your
>nationalistic sentiments for his gain.
In the same way as U.S. government use chauvinism of Americans
in this group .
>
>Such feelings are universal and easy to understand. I'm really not your
enemy
>though. This is a military aviation newsgroup.
I have never believed that all Americans are our enemy,but some of them are.
> You'd have scored more
points if
>you left your nationalism at home and only put forth the valid points you
stated.
>Let the other guy be a jerk by introducing nationalism as *an answer* to
some
>troubling questions and perspective!
If we use the same definition of ”nationalism” I agree.I am nationalist.What
do you think about
outrageous chauvinism which show some Americans in aviation newsgroup?
Stephen Harding
> You still believe in possibility that Russians made order form for this
> attack.
> Was it practice that Russian commanders ordered U.S. air
> support,especially support of tactical significance?At that moment Russian
> had complete air superiority in this part of Europe.With hundreds of support
> aircrafts as IL2/10,PE2,TU2 (with experienced crews) included in Air Army
The Russians were extremely capable at ground attack at this time, and had
more than sufficient resources to take care of themselves without American
help. If such "help" was indeed requested, it most likely would have been
called for at a higher political level.
We do know there were "shuttle flights" of US bombers and fighters from Italy
to Soviet controlled territory to England in order to confuse German defenses.
Fighter sweeps also were undertaken some times as well. These missions were
strategic in nature, with strong political elements involved.
(BTW, some of these flights were disastrous for American participants. On one
occasion most of the bombers and many of the fighters were destroyed on the
ground at their Soviet base by German attack. For a suspicious mind, given
that the Soviets were quite competent in air defense, could this "lapse" in
defensive capability actually have been a Soviet plot to undermine the USAAF
operation???)
> So,Americans never lie,thay only "erred".Especially military personal.Was
> situation on Balkan front
> familiar to U.S. military leaders?Did they have rec. flight over
> Serbia,agents on terrain,did they intercept messages between Germans HQs,did
> they receive informations from Serbians and Russians? It is unbelievable
> that
> persons in charge in US Army did not know where was line of front and where
You are unable to see "error" in the actions of Americans, preferring evil
design as explanation. OK, there's little I can do to convince you otherwise,
especially concerning an event of which I know little (probably more proof of
American coverup from your POV). I'm accepting the events as you've stated
because you appear credible, and I haven't been able to come up with information
about the incidents one way or the other. So I can't dispute the story you've
presented. I can only argue with what the motivation might have been. I believe
"error", and you believe a purposeful plan to accomplish some unspecified, anti-
Serb/Russian objective.
> were Germans exactly. Nobody in this group answered me what German tenk
> unit and German fighters would do on airfield few hundred km behind line of
> front?How did Mr.Edwinson and his superiors explain it?
"SNAFU: Situation Normal, All Fouled Up" explains lots of events, in particular
military. It happens in Russian military too I would guess. Since you believe
the worst of Americans, you see the event as a plot to kill Serbs for the apparent
joy of it, since there seems to have been no political and military continuation
of the dastardly plot to accomplish.....something???
> >> you create
> >> your opinion about us through TV news ! It will spoil my impression about
> >> you.
> >
>
> >How else am I supposed to get an opinion of world events?
>
> If you do not see other ways to get an opinion,what can I say to you?
I'm just a dense, chauvinistic American. Please tell me!
> I am sure that average Serbian has far more contacts with foreigners and
> travel abroad than average American.
Now look who's being chauvinistic! Europeans have greater accessibility to a
"foreign" travel, but don't confuse our geographical isolation with ignorance.
I am constantly amazed at how ignorant or mis-informed many Europeans are of
the US.
> As you know we live in small country which make 60 % of B.N.P. through
> export -import.Near 8 % of Serbia's work in W.Europe and
> C.I.S..Nice opportunities for personal interaction.
> In last few years more than one hundred thousands young Serbians left Serbia
> and went to the N.America.
I went to Quebec last weekend. Quebec is the French speaking part of Canada so
is "a little different" from the US, but not much! That was 300 miles away from
where I live. How many separate countries can you go through in 300 miles? Now
how about a *real* "foreign" cultural experience for me? I'll go to Mexico which
*is* quite different from the US. I need to travel 2000 miles to get there! We
are more isolated from "foreign" experiences than Europe is, but this isn't the
whole story!
As you've said above, Serbs are here in fairly large numbers. We are a nation of
immigrants! In Europe, Germans mostly live in Germany, and Serbs in Serbia.
Here, they are neighbors! Cultures of our component parts may be diluted
somewhat by surrounding "Americanism". I work on a college campus. I share
an office with a post-doc Chinese (PRC). We have people in our lab from
Russia, Romania, China, India, and a few more places besides USA. This is very
common on college campuses and high tech businesses especially, but not unknown
elsewhere in this country. Just because I can't travel through 5 countries in
300 miles doesn't mean I'm ignorant of the world!
> How can you explain those air attacks over Serbian towns in 1944.From
> military point they were pitiful.
Apparently. So how would such a small effort represent some sort of military
"lesson" to be delivered to Russia/Serbia by *an ally*? It makes perfect
sense being an accident/poorly planned and executed tactical mission. Not
a blunted effort by an American air armada to destroy Russian/Serb forces or
people in Yugoslavia.
> What is vindication for those attacks? To show muscles to Serbians and
> Russians?Something like Dresden?
Careful! I believe Dresden had a strong component of "help for the Russians"
in it! This subject had its own thread a while back.
> As for American policy makers ,one thing is sure,that serious country has
> long term planing.I am convinced that US policy is anti Serbian from last
> stage of WW II till now,leading by double standards.
So what was the long term policy that was initiated by killing a few thousand
Serbs or attacking Russian ground forces? The US "liked" Yugoslavia during
the cold war because of Tito's "independence" from the Soviet block. We would
have been delighted to see more Yugoslavia-like independence from other members
of the Warsaw Pact as well I would guess. How did bombing Serbia in 1944 help
accomplish that?
> Did you think about following:
> When terrorist and separatist among Albanians start fighitings in
> Kosovo,Serbia as sovereign country under constitution and lows use force
> against them, U.S. threaten Serbians with air attacs.
> Why U.S. did not use the same threat towards Turkish government when they
> fight against Kurds,when they chase them inside other sovereign
> country(Iraq).Double standards ,yes or not?Pro Turkish and anti
> Serbian,correct?
Sure there is somewhat of a double standard involved here. Turkey is a member
of NATO, so we're hardly going to bomb another NATO member. We were also rather
quiet while Iraq gased its Kurd population as well.
Perhaps Serbia's problem was doing its killing in front of news cameras over a
protracted period of time. If Turkey has done the same level of killing as was
seen in Bosnia, it was certainly a much better public relations effort!
I have no doubt that if the US public saw Kurds being killed the same way as was
done *on TV* in Bosnia, the US would have *had* to do *something*! A bombing
offensive would never have been considered, but economic sanctions certainly
would have followed if diplomacy failed.
> Only what can you feel through my words is disdain towards some Americans in
> this group.
Well then we can agree on this! I do not like the nationalistic argument that
too often pervades this group. However it is only natural to occur given the
nature of this NG. I am capable of mostly ignoring such negative posting.
Americans are hardly alone in being guilty of this in r.a.m. though. The
Russians, French, Finn, UK, German...and now Serb posters have shown such
tendancies on occasion. Personally, I think the group is better because of it
and I would hate to see a purely American group. But Americans dominate this
group (in numbers...if not in ideas and quality posts I'm sorry to say). You
can't help read r.a.m. and not come away hearing the American POV (unless the
subject turns to Finno-Soviet disagreements, when the Finns take over the net!).
> I have never believed that all Americans are our enemy,but some of them are.
Most Americans, myself included, have formulated their opinions of Serbs based
on endless evenings watching news and seeing first Bosnians being blown up in a
market place, then Croats pushed out of homes, mass graves of untold numbers of
people destroyed simply by being Muslim. Hell, we Americans can't even tell
the difference between Croat, Bosnian, Serb. (At least we might be more
understanding if they had different color skin!) Our understanding of racism
is missing from the equation! Now we see Albanians being run off their farms,
when they are alleged to be 90% of the Kosovo population! We do hear some
commentary about the KLA attempting to manipulate NATO into direct intervention
and their demands for independence. That's what news media has presented to us
on this topic.
Serbia is not a monolithic country where everyone is anxious to have some fun
killing Bosnians. I remember seeing thousands of Serbs in the streets protesting
Milosevic a few years ago. Perhaps these are not correct views and I can only
learn the *truth* by flying to Serbia to see for myself. I can't do that at this
time as beautiful as the Yugoslav region appears. I have to rely on various
sources of news, both written and TV.
> If we use the same definition of "nationalism" I agree.I am nationalist.What
> do you think about
> outrageous chauvinism which show some Americans in aviation newsgroup?
Perhaps my chauvinsim makes me unable to believe American bombers and P-38s
were deliberately sent to destroy Serbs and Russians in 1944. However from my
viewpoint Serb nationalism has resulted in mass graves! You'll call that being
an ignorant American or being manipulated by my government. I obviously won't
see it that way.
Steve Sampson
Leopold wrote
> Sir, I would like you to read whole of my post, so I'll try to make
>this story as short as possible. Let's first have a look at the
>relation between Serbs and Croats in Yugoslavia.
<lots of good history snipped>
What I want to know, is that if all the people the Serbs want to
kill were dead, and all the people the Croats wanted to kill were
dead, and all the people the Albanians wanted to kill were dead:
what would the country/countries do afterward? Would all these
aligned borders be useful in some way? Would all the people
left alive become craftsmen and sell things to their new neighbors?
Americans have forgotten how to fight a war. They pitch battles
at the fringes, and never go to the heart of the problem. Not
only is this expensive (in tax dollars), the people causing the
problem never feel inconvenienced.