Rare Me Bf 109V-31
Rob Arndt
http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/8863/bf109v31003swfotoup9.jpg
A curiosity, the Me-109V-31 with belly radiator and wide undercarriage
acting as a test aircraft for the Me-309.
Rob
Dean A. Markley
think the original narrow undercarriage of the Me-109 would have been
problematic on the Graf Zeppelin had it become operational?
Dean
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Rob Arndt
No.
Messerschmitt's proposal for a shipboard fighter was designated Bf
109T (T for "Trager"). It was basically a Bf 109E-1 with a larger
wing, an attachment point for catapult points underneath the fuselage,
and an arrester hook underneath the aft fuselage. A breakpoint was
incorporated in the wing spar outboard of the gun bays to permit
manual folding of the wings. However, the wing folding process was
complicated by the need to detach the flaps prior to folding. The
landing gear still retracted outwards, but the undercarriage legs were
made stronger in order to accommodate the faster sink rates involved
in carrier landings. Armament was to consist of two fuselage-mounted
7.9-mm MG 17 machine guns and either two MG-17 machine guns or two 20-
mm MG-FF cannon in the wings. The engine was the Daimler Benz DB
601A.
Since the Messerschmitt A.G. was fully occupied with Bf 109 and Bf 110
production, responsibility for the Bf 109T project was assigned to the
Fieseler Werke. Ten Bf 109E-1s were to be converted to Bf 109T-0
configuration for service test, and 60 Bf 109T-1 fighters were to be
built from scratch. The Bf 109T-0s were ready for evaluation during
the winter of 1939-40.
When the war in Europe began, the Graf Zeppelin was about 85 percent
complete, and most of her machinery had been installed. However, work
on the Graf Zeppelin was suspended in October 1939 due to a change in
German naval thinking. It was deemed that the operation of a single
aircraft carrier within range of enemy land bases was impractical, and
all work on the Graf Zeppelin was halted in May of 1940. Assembly of
the 60 Bf 109T-1 fighters was also halted at the same time.
Me Bf 109 catapult tests:
http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2833/luftwaffe/carrierborne/me109t/me109tn1.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2833/luftwaffe/carrierborne/me109t/me109tn2.jpg
Me-155 was originally proposed for the carrier as well and then
specifications were changed multiple times to end with the high-
altitude fighter...
KMS Graf Zeppelin would have also had Ju-87C and Fi-167 aircraft as
well as possible helicopters when operational. But all work stopped in
1940 when carrier was 80% complete and tehn a little more work was
completed in 1942 before the Kriegsmarine decided to use it as
adocked floating warehouse captured by the Soviets at Stettin 85%
completed.
Rob
Dean
>
> Me-155 was originally proposed for the carrier as well and then
> specifications were changed multiple times to end with the high-
> altitude fighter...
>
> KMS Graf Zeppelin would have also had Ju-87C and Fi-167 aircraft as
> well as possible helicopters when operational. But all work stopped in
> 1940 when carrier was 80% complete and tehn a little more work was
> completed in 1942 before the Kriegsmarine decided to use it as
> adocked floating warehouse captured by the Soviets at Stettin 85%
> completed.
>
> Rob
But did the Me-109T still retain that narrow track undercarriage? I
seem to recall that the Brits had troubles with Sea Hurricanes and
Seafires because of their narrow undercarriages.
Dean
guy
>
> > Me-155 was originally proposed for the carrier as well and then
> > specifications were changed multiple times to end with the high-
> > altitude fighter...
>
> > KMS Graf Zeppelin would have also had Ju-87C and Fi-167 aircraft as
> > well as possible helicopters when operational. But all work stopped in
> > 1940 when carrier was 80% complete and tehn a little more work was
> > completed in 1942 before the Kriegsmarine decided to use it as
> > adocked floating warehouse captured by the Soviets at Stettin 85%
> > completed.
>
> > Rob
>
> But did the Me-109T still retain that narrow track undercarriage? I
> seem to recall that the Brits had troubles with Sea Hurricanes and
> Seafires because of their narrow undercarriages.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
The all Hurricanes ahd a wide-track undercarraige, very use in the
Battle of France with the muddy state of the fields thye flew from!
Guy
Rob Arndt
>
> > Me-155 was originally proposed for the carrier as well and then
> > specifications were changed multiple times to end with the high-
> > altitude fighter...
>
> > KMS Graf Zeppelin would have also had Ju-87C and Fi-167 aircraft as
> > well as possible helicopters when operational. But all work stopped in
> > 1940 when carrier was 80% complete and tehn a little more work was
> > completed in 1942 before the Kriegsmarine decided to use it as
> > adocked floating warehouse captured by the Soviets at Stettin 85%
> > completed.
>
> > Rob
>
> But did the Me-109T still retain that narrow track undercarriage? �I
> seem to recall that the Brits had troubles with Sea Hurricanes and
> Seafires because of their narrow undercarriages.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes.
KMS Graf Zeppelin's Aircraft:
Me Bf 109T-1 Pic:
http://www.strijdbewijs.nl/top/p/M20.jpg
Me Bf 109T-3 Wartime Depiction:
http://149.142.139.138/Web/CB/Bf109-t3.jpg
Fi-167:
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/fi167-1.jpg
http://www.europa1939.com/luftwaffe/reconocimiento/fi167.jpg
Ju-87C-1:
http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/bww2/ju87c/ju87c-1.jpg
http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/bww2/ju87c/ju87c-2.jpg
http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/bww2/ju87c/ju87c-4.jpg
Last Photo of KMS Graf Zeppelin:
http://ahoy.tk-jk.net/ImagesJan20_2007/GrafZeppelin.jpg
Last photograph of KMS Graf Zeppelin towed from Swinocijscie Poland to
Leningrad. April 17. 1947.
Soviet Archives Opened:
It was unsure post WW2 what had been the fate of Graf Zeppelin until
the Soviet archives were opened up.
* mine story and refloat history/myth omitted...
It appears the carrier was towed from Poland to Leningrad, unloaded
and designated PO-101 ( ie. floating base Number 101 ) the Russians
wanted to repair the ship at Leningrad as all the repair facilities at
Stettin had been destroyed. But this did not happen, and again Graf
Zeppelin was towed off to the Polish coast.
Final demise of Graf Zeppelin:
On the Polish coast on August 16th. 1947, the ill fated Carrier was
used as target practice for both Soviet aircraft and Naval ships.
After taking 24 bombs and projectiles the ship was still afloat,
finally two torpedoes did the job, and the carrier sank.
The actual position of her sinking was unknown for many years, but in
2006, a Polish Oil Company ship Petrobaltic found a 265 metre long
wreck close to the port of Leba. On July 27th. 2006, the Polish Navy
survey ship ORP Arctowski confirmed the find was indeed the wreck of
Graf Zeppelin, sitting at 264 feet below the surface.
Crew from Polish Survey vessel ORP Arctowski identified the wreck of
Graf Zeppelin July 27th. 2006.
AND...
KMS Seydlitz light carrier conversion:
http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2833/kriegsmarine/cruiser/seydlitz/seydlitzn2.jpg
Seydlitz at Bremen, September/October 1942. Note the scaffolding
around the funnel, about to be dismantled to make room for the flight
deck.
In 1942, it was decided that the hull of the half-finished heavy
cruiser KMS Seydlitz should be converted to an aircraft carrier, in
order to provide local air cover for German capital ships. In Bremen,
work began to dismantle the superstructure of the would-be cruiser.
Probably the armament was already removed to the Atlantic Wall or the
Norwegian coast. Some time around November or December 1942, all
remaining superstructure was removed and Seydlitz left Bremen for
K�nigsberg.
On New Year's Eve, 1942, the Battle of the Barents Sea took place, in
which a superior German naval force was turned away by British light
cruisers and destroyers. Hitler was furious and ordered all capital
ships decommissioned and all works in progress abandoned. In the few
months Seydlitz spent at K�nigsberg, not much work towards becoming an
aircraft carrier could have been done; only some basic flight deck
support construction had begun.
No more work were ever done on Seydlitz. She remained in the Schichau
Yards in K�nigsberg until the Russians arrived in April 1945, when she
was scuttled to prevent capture. She was renamed Poltava by the
Russians and plans were made to rebuild her. They were canceled and
the hull was scrapped around 1950-51.
Data:
Type: aircraft carrier
Displacement, standard: 14,685 tons
Displacement, full load: 18,285 tons
Length, overall: 212.5m
Beam: 21.9m
Design draught: 7.94
Machinery: AG Weser geared turbines delivering 133,500shp to three
shafts
Speed: 33.4 knots
Class: Seydlitz (January 1939, refitted to aircraft carrier
1942)Armament: ten 105mm (5x2) anti-aircraft, eight 37mm and twenty
20mm sponsons on island and deck
Armor: belt 70-80mm, deck 12-50mm
Aircraft: 24, including Me 155 high performance carrier-borne fighters
NOW, does this answer ALL of your questions ;)
Rob
Keith Willshaw
"Dean" <dama...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d9588957-aeba-414c...@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>> KMS Graf Zeppelin would have also had Ju-87C and Fi-167 aircraft as
>> well as possible helicopters when operational. But all work stopped in
>> 1940 when carrier was 80% complete and tehn a little more work was
>> completed in 1942 before the Kriegsmarine decided to use it as
>> adocked floating warehouse captured by the Soviets at Stettin 85%
>> completed.
>>
>> Rob
> But did the Me-109T still retain that narrow track undercarriage? I
> seem to recall that the Brits had troubles with Sea Hurricanes and
> Seafires because of their narrow undercarriages.
> Dean
Yep , note that the Sea Hurricane was rather more robust and had a wider
track
than either the Bf-109 or Seafire as its gear was mounted further out
and retracted inwards.
My other concern with the Bf-109 would be the tail hook, the empennage
on that aircraft was not stressed for arrested landings. The Sea Hurricane
and
later marks of the Seafire had reinforced rear fuselages to cure problems
associated
with tail hook stresses.
Keith
Eunometic
>
> > Me-155 was originally proposed for the carrier as well and then
> > specifications were changed multiple times to end with the high-
> > altitude fighter...
>
> > KMS Graf Zeppelin would have also had Ju-87C and Fi-167 aircraft as
> > well as possible helicopters when operational. But all work stopped in
> > 1940 when carrier was 80% complete and tehn a little more work was
> > completed in 1942 before the Kriegsmarine decided to use it as
> > adocked floating warehouse captured by the Soviets at Stettin 85%
> > completed.
>
> > Rob
>
> But did the Me-109T still retain that narrow track undercarriage? I
> seem to recall that the Brits had troubles with Sea Hurricanes and
> Seafires because of their narrow undercarriages.
The Bf 109T wing was extended by adding extensions inboard of the
undercarriage
attachments points, this moved the undercarriage further apart, it
still folded
outward.
>
> Dean
Keith Willshaw
"Eunometic" <euno...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:8468d540-1b39-4f30...@40g2000prx.googlegroups.com...
Not according to my sources. There was a proposal for a Bf-109 variant
with inboard wing inserts but it was never built. The Bf-109 T had wings
extended OUTBOARD of the gear. The photos at the links below show
no sign of having extended gear.
http://www.topsid.com/pictures/air/messerschmitt/bf109/messerschmitt_bf_109t-0.jpg
http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2102/2209842247_ea338a43cc.jpg%3Fv%3D0&imgrefurl=http://flickr.com/photos/farinihouseoflove/2209842247/&h=357&w=500&sz=108&hl=en&start=15&um=1&usg=__NeZVFMx86cczOjeJ_qB4A5WMUpo=&tbnid=QS53zRCekoG17M:&tbnh=93&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3DBf%2B109T%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN
Keith
Rob Arndt
<ke...@nospam.kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> "Eunometic" <eunome...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
>
> news:8468d540-1b39-4f30...@40g2000prx.googlegroups.com...
> On Oct 7, 10:37 pm, Dean <damark...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> >> But did the Me-109T still retain that narrow track undercarriage? I
> >> seem to recall that the Brits had troubles with Sea Hurricanes and
> >> Seafires because of their narrow undercarriages.
> >The Bf 109T wing was extended by adding extensions inboard of the
> >undercarriage
> > attachments points, this moved the undercarriage further apart, it
> > still folded outward.
>
> Not according to my sources. There was a proposal for a Bf-109 variant
> with inboard wing inserts but it was never built. The Bf-109 T had wings
> extended OUTBOARD of the gear. The photos at the links below show
> no sign of having extended gear.
>
>
> Keith
Euno must be confusing the Me Bf 109T with the Me Bf 109H series which
would have had the inboard wing inserts that would extend the gear
about 3 feet either side:
http://hsfeatures.com/features04/images/bf109hdj_4.jpg
Rob