P-51 vs Me 109 (aka Bf 109)
Dean
available that showed results on the head to head battles between
these two aircraft. I've not been able to find much other than the Me
109 is the top scoring fighter of all time while the P-51 is the top
scoring American fighter.
Somewhere, someone must know what the kill ratio was for battles
between these two aircraft?
I also found that nearly 34,000 Me 109s were produced while the top
105 Me 109 pilots accounted for almost 15,000 aircraft shot down.
For the P-51, about 15,000 were produced and they seem to have downed
4,950 aircraft.
But once again: What was the ratio in fights between the P-51 and the
Me 109?
Dean
Jim Wilkins
> ...
> But once again: What was the ratio in fights between the P-51 and the
> Me 109?
>
> Dean
At first German experts fought Americans who could fly well but had
little or no combat experience, then as the Americans gained skill the
Germans threw in novices. You can see that in Yeager's book, he was
shot down early, escaped, came back and ripped them up. Hartmann and
Rudel began very poorly, Hartmann crashed frequently and Rudel washed
out as a fighter pilot. I don't think overall ratios mean much without
equal pilots, which statistics don't reveal.
jsw
Bill Shatzer
> As an off shoot of an earlier thread, I asked if there was any data
> available that showed results on the head to head battles between
> these two aircraft. I've not been able to find much other than the Me
> 109 is the top scoring fighter of all time while the P-51 is the top
> scoring American fighter.
Some would dispute that. The Navy officially credits the F6F Hellcat
with 5,180 aerial victories, slightly more than the 4,950 credited to
USAAF P-51 Mustangs.
The two numbers are close enough that they no doubt fall within the
margins of error.
Eunometic
> As an off shoot of an earlier thread, I asked if there was any data
> available that showed results on the head to head battles between
> these two aircraft. I've not been able to find much other than the Me
> 109 is the top scoring fighter of all time while the P-51 is the top
> scoring American fighter.
> For the P-51, about 15,000 were produced and they seem to have downed
> 4,950 aircraft.
>
> But once again: What was the ratio in fights between the P-51 and the
> Me 109?
>
> Dean
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlfOWZHEGNk&feature=related
If you look at this youtube video of combat between an Me 109 and a
P-51D you will see that the aging 1933 design Me 109 could produce
suprises: out turning and outclimbing the P-51D. As the date of this
combat is November 1944 the Me 109 in question is probably an Me
109K-4 or possibly a Me 109G-10.
Both sides changed their technology, engines, fuel and regained an
advantage. The update cycles were not simultaneous.
Prior to the introduction of the 'new' powerfull engines in the Me 109
in April 1944 the Me 109 was at a serious performance disadvantage,
the gap wasn't really closed till October 1944.
Engine power is very critical: it gives speed, it provides the climb
rate needed to take a superior position. It also dramatically
increases turn rate and even improves turn radious.
Matt
for the Me109. ... P-51 Mustang vs Me Bf-109 7:43. www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFl8X4y9-94
Dean
Jim, I understand what you are saying and don't disagree. However,
war almost never allows for equals to match up. And really, no one
wants to fight and equal battle. You WANT overwhelming force since
the goal is to win.
In seeking this ratio, I am trying to get people to understand that
there are lies, damned lies and statistics. And you can make
statistics mean anything you want. Yes, there were 34,000 Me 109s
made. And yes, they did shoot down more aircraft than any other
warplane in history. But, most of those victories were NOT over
equals. Does that diminish the Me 109? Not at all. It was a weapon
designed to win air battles. This it did to a certain extent. But
then in the end you realize that out of 34,000 Me 109s, eventually
every one of them was lost (with few exceptions) because as good as
they were early on, they could not win the war for Germany.
Dean
Dean
> During WWII, the average kill ratio in combat V the P-51 was 1 to 7
> for the Me109. ... P-51 Mustang vs Me Bf-109 7:43.www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFl8X4y9-94
Explain please?
Dean
Matt
post in response to a History Channel video, and the guy was actually
claiming that, for every 109 shot down, 7 Mustangs were. Not even the
most partisan German would make that claim seriously. Disregard.
Matt
Stephen Harding
> In seeking this ratio, I am trying to get people to understand that
> there are lies, damned lies and statistics. And you can make
> statistics mean anything you want. Yes, there were 34,000 Me 109s
> made. And yes, they did shoot down more aircraft than any other
> warplane in history. But, most of those victories were NOT over
> equals. Does that diminish the Me 109? Not at all. It was a weapon
> designed to win air battles. This it did to a certain extent. But
> then in the end you realize that out of 34,000 Me 109s, eventually
> every one of them was lost (with few exceptions) because as good as
> they were early on, they could not win the war for Germany.
Can't supply a ratio but it would seem the P-51 was a slightly
better climber.
In a fight highlighted on a recent History Channel show that
related notable air combats over many wars by different pilots
and aircraft, Bud Anderson's P-51 "Old Crow" was able to barely
out climb a pursuing Me 109 flown very skillfully.
Anderson states he managed to keep his plane just barely above
stall and slightly above the 109, which could not quite bring its
nose cannon to bear.
The 109 stalled, and Anderson shot the aircraft down. I believe
the pilot was one of the Experten and was killed in the fight.
Over all, I have not read that the P-51 was a great climber. I
think the P-38 probably was the best until the Bearcat. But in
the particular fight Anderson related in the program, the Mustang
was just barely good enough to keep ahead of destruction by an
Me 109.
SMH