F-4 smoke abatement switch
Jon Krocker
I was reading the -1 for the F-4J and I found a reference for a smoke
abatement system. Apparently there was an additive that was added to the
engine fuel manifolds that reduced smoke during low altitude mil power
settings. What was the use of this? Was it to reduce the chance of somebody
seeing your smoke trail?
TIA
--
Jon Krocker jkro...@magic.mb.ca
Aus des Weltalls Ferne, Funken Radiosterne, Quasare und Pulsare
-Kraftwerk
Richard Tipton
would not be visually acquired outside of 1 1/2 miles! It never worked
real well and was largely not used. The sys was not terribly reliable
and usually disengaged in the a/c. Sounds nice on paper but really not
very practicle. Richard Tipton
--
Richard Tipton
"Phantoms Phorever"
http://phantoms-phorever.com
Steve GREGG
In article <jkrocker-ya0240800...@news.total.net>,
jkro...@magic.mb.ca (Jon Krocker) wrote:
>I was reading the -1 for the F-4J and I found a reference for a smoke
>abatement system. Apparently there was an additive that was added to the
>engine fuel manifolds that reduced smoke during low altitude mil power
>settings. What was the use of this? Was it to reduce the chance of somebody
>seeing your smoke trail?
>TIA
>
>--
>Jon Krocker jkro...@magic.mb.ca
>Aus des Weltalls Ferne, Funken Radiosterne, Quasare und Pulsare
>-Kraftwerk
This is a new one on me. I can tell you for sure that if we had a smoke abatement system on the USAF F-4 we sure as hell would have used it. The USAF Phantom smoked pretty darn good. You could not see anything from a side view but if you were intercepting a bogey head on that smudge of black smoke gave him away, especially against a background of white clouds.
Steve
******************************************************
Steve Gregg Save The Whales
smg...@ix.netcom.com Until We Get More Tartar Sauce
*****************************************************
Byron Hukee
> I was reading the -1 for the F-4J and I found a reference for a smoke
> abatement system. Apparently there was an additive that was added to the
> engine fuel manifolds that reduced smoke during low altitude mil power
> settings. What was the use of this? Was it to reduce the chance of somebody
> seeing your smoke trail?
> TIA
>
> --
> Jon Krocker jkro...@magic.mb.ca
> Aus des Weltalls Ferne, Funken Radiosterne, Quasare und Pulsare
> -Kraftwerk
Yes, it was called the afterburner.
Corsair
>This is a new one on me. I can tell you for sure that if we had a smoke
>abatement system on the USAF F-4 we sure as hell would have used it. The USAF
>Phantom smoked pretty darn good. You could not see anything from a side view
>but if you were intercepting a bogey head on that smudge of black smoke gave him
>away, especially against a background of white clouds.
I remember the movie "The Great Santini" where the lead dies and they do the
missing man with Phantoms. From a distance you see the small dots trailed by a
lot of smoke. How could you miss them :)
Corsair
* Web CAG of "The Jolly Rogers": Past & Present
http://www.interlog.com/~vf84
* If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.
*** edit REMOVE out of my email ***
Mark W. Schaeffer
In article <vf84.705...@interlog.comREMOVE>, vf...@interlog.comREMOVE
(Corsair) wrote:
>In article <5vf5fb$k...@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> Steve GREGG
<smg...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
>>This is a new one on me. I can tell you for sure that if we had a smoke
>>abatement system on the USAF F-4 we sure as hell would have used it. The USAF
>>Phantom smoked pretty darn good. You could not see anything from a side view
>>but if you were intercepting a bogey head on that smudge of black smoke
gave him
>>away, especially against a background of white clouds.
>
>I remember the movie "The Great Santini" where the lead dies and they do the
>missing man with Phantoms. From a distance you see the small dots trailed by a
>lot of smoke. How could you miss them :)
The movie "Red Flag," (IIRC this was made for British TV; it was later
released in VHS) based on the USAF exercise of the same name, made
reference to the heavy smoke of the Phantom. A briefing officer,
describing the F-4 in sarcastic terms, said it "leaves a trail of smoke a
blind man can see."
Also, summing the plane up: "America's proof to the world that, with
enough engine, even a brick can be made to fly." Not my view of the
Phantom, though.
Mark Schaeffer, who lived under the flight pattern of NAS Miramar 1969-82.
José Herculano
> The movie "Red Flag," (IIRC this was made for British TV; it was later
> released in VHS) based on the USAF exercise of the same name, made
> reference to the heavy smoke of the Phantom. A briefing officer,
> describing the F-4 in sarcastic terms, said it "leaves a trail of smoke a
> blind man can see."
Wasn't that "smoke abatement switch" somewhat related to the USAFE
mod to the J79 using NATO JP8?
--
José Herculano
_____________________________
http://www.almansur.com/aviation/
Steve GREGG
In article <vf84.705...@interlog.comREMOVE>,
vf...@interlog.comREMOVE (Corsair) wrote:
>In article <5vf5fb$k...@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> Steve GREGG <smg...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
>>This is a new one on me. I can tell you for sure that if we had a smoke
>>abatement system on the USAF F-4 we sure as hell would have used it. The USAF
>>Phantom smoked pretty darn good. You could not see anything from a side view
>>but if you were intercepting a bogey head on that smudge of black smoke gave him
>>away, especially against a background of white clouds.
>
>I remember the movie "The Great Santini" where the lead dies and they do the
>missing man with Phantoms. From a distance you see the small dots trailed by a
>lot of smoke. How could you miss them :)
Yeah, if you knew a flight of F-4s were coming to base you could see a smudge of black smoke on the horizon, almost like dust thrown up by a herd of animals, long before you could see the dots of the aircraft themselves.
Foxeye
fox...@mindspring.com wrote:
Towards the end of our time with the F4, we were converting to the so
called smokeless engine. It did smoke less, but was far from
smokefree as the newer aircraft are. I remember while TDY to Cold
Lake CAFB, Canada, in 1981, you could see the smoke for miles and
miles from our RF4's on their way back to base, or as far as that goes
when they left to. Clear blue skies, but you could always spot the
F4's. IMHO a great overall airplane, that served well.
foxeye
Mary Shafer <sha...@reseng.dfrc.nasa.gov> wrote:
>vf...@interlog.comREMOVE (Corsair) writes:
>
>>
>> In article <5vf5fb$k...@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> Steve GREGG <smg...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>>
>> >This is a new one on me. I can tell you for sure that if we had a smoke
>> >abatement system on the USAF F-4 we sure as hell would have used it. The USAF
>> >Phantom smoked pretty darn good. You could not see anything from a side view
>> >but if you were intercepting a bogey head on that smudge of black smoke gave him
>> >away, especially against a background of white clouds.
>>
>> I remember the movie "The Great Santini" where the lead dies and they do the
>> missing man with Phantoms. From a distance you see the small dots trailed by a
>> lot of smoke. How could you miss them :)
>
>One of the many nicknames for the Phantom was "Smoker", for obvious
>reasons to anyone who had ever seen one take off. They don't always
>smoke, depending on what the engine's doing, but when they do smoke,
>they really smoke.
Fox...@www.mindspring.com
By sending unsolicited commercially-oriented e-mail to this address, the
sender agrees to pay a $100 flat fee to the recipient for proofreading
services. Take the www out of address to send email.
Cole Pierce
In article <jkrocker-ya0240800...@news.total.net>, jkro...@magic.mb.ca (Jon Krocker) writes:
|> I was reading the -1 for the F-4J and I found a reference for a smoke
|> abatement system. Apparently there was an additive that was added to the
|> engine fuel manifolds that reduced smoke during low altitude mil power
|> settings. What was the use of this? Was it to reduce the chance of somebody
|> seeing your smoke trail?
|> TIA
|>
(Do you mean the NATOPs Manual?? Didn't know the Air Force flew the -J model.)
If it's the same system we used for a short time in the early '70s, it worked
pretty much as you describe, altho it was a constant ON system .. no switching
on or off. It was quickly discarded, however, due to the high corrosiveness
of the chemical on engine parts.
gun one
Rod Don
In article <bhukee-1309...@cru69.cahe.wsu.edu>,
bhu...@cahe.wsu.edu (Byron Hukee) wrote:
> In article <jkrocker-ya0240800...@news.total.net>,
> jkro...@magic.mb.ca (Jon Krocker) wrote:
>
> > I was reading the -1 for the F-4J and I found a reference for a smoke
> > abatement system. Apparently there was an additive that was added to the
> > engine fuel manifolds that reduced smoke during low altitude mil power
> > settings. What was the use of this? Was it to reduce the chance of somebody
> > seeing your smoke trail?
> > TIA
> >
> > --
> > Jon Krocker jkro...@magic.mb.ca
> > Aus des Weltalls Ferne, Funken Radiosterne, Quasare und Pulsare
> > -Kraftwerk
>
> Yes, it was called the afterburner.
>
There were engine mods to the J79 in the early to mid '80's to reduce
smoking, at least on our USAF E and G models (J79-GE17). It worked pretty
well, cut the smoke density to maybe 1/4 of the original, as I recall.
Rod
--
R.C. Don
University of Delaware
Center for Composite Materials
302-831-8352
AMA 446054
IMAA 21341
Mary Shafer
E. D. Foote
Ok guys, I will quote from page 1-94 of NAVAIR 01-245FDD-1 updated
through March of 1970 and called "NATOPS Flight Manual (U) F-4-J
Aircraft."
"Smoke Abatement Control Switch
A two position smoke abatement control switch (figure A-1) with
positions of Off and On is on the engine control panel. When the switch
is in the On position, the shutoff valve is energized open and additive
is injected into the fuel manifolds. Additive will continue to be
injected into the fuel manifolds until the switch is placed to the Off
position, the reservoirs are depleted, or until afterburner is
selected."
I never, in five years of flying the Phantom, flew a plane which had the
additive in the tank, and I heard it was bad for the engines. One thing
for certain, you could see a Phantom's smoke long before he was
otherwise visible (as far as 18nm). I recall that one trick used was to
place one engine at idle and the other at minimum burner. IIRC this
gave you a reasonable combat cruise speed and the fuel consumption
wasn't much more than normal.
Ernie
John Eager
Foxeye wrote:
>
> fox...@mindspring.com wrote:
> Towards the end of our time with the F4, we were converting to the so
> called smokeless engine. It did smoke less, but was far from
> smokefree as the newer aircraft are. I remember while TDY to Cold
> Lake CAFB, Canada, in 1981, you could see the smoke for miles and
> miles from our RF4's on their way back to base, or as far as that goes
> when they left to. Clear blue skies, but you could always spot the
> F4's. IMHO a great overall airplane, that served well.
>
> foxeye
>
> Mary Shafer <sha...@reseng.dfrc.nasa.gov> wrote:
>
> >
> >>
> >> In article <5vf5fb$k...@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> Steve GREGG <smg...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> >>
> >> >This is a new one on me. I can tell you for sure that if we had a smoke
> >> >abatement system on the USAF F-4 we sure as hell would have used it. The USAF
> >> >Phantom smoked pretty darn good. You could not see anything from a side view
> >> >but if you were intercepting a bogey head on that smudge of black smoke gave him
> >> >away, especially against a background of white clouds.
> >>
I've no involvement with the F-4 like the above gentlemen but do remember
reading about this problem somewhere. I seem to remember that the
solution was to run on engine at a low throttle setting with the other on
augmentation. This provided the equivalent of full military power on
both, the closeness to the centreline resulted in minimal yaw, and the
fuel consumption wasn't too excessive. Please feel free to shoot me down
if this is all bollocks.
Jeff Crowell
Jon Krocker (jkro...@magic.mb.ca) wrote:
: I was reading the -1 for the F-4J and I found a reference for a smoke
: abatement system. Apparently there was an additive that was added to the
: engine fuel manifolds that reduced smoke during low altitude mil power
: settings. What was the use of this? Was it to reduce the chance of somebody
: seeing your smoke trail?
: TIA
Snort.
The only way to stop smoking in a Phantom would be to pull back on the oud
levers.
In combat, that trail of brown smudge was a dead (literally) giveaway.
Jeff
(Fox Two on the smoking F-4, nose-low coming left)
--
"Good Health" is merely dying at the slowest possible rate.
Dweezil Dwarftosser
Just for info purposes:
F-4s were smoky - but all along, they didn't have to be.
F-4E J-79-17 engines were modified around the 1983/4 time frame to
the "smokeless" variety - about the same time as they departed the
"air defense alert" role in favor of the F-15. ( Evidently, it was
all a function of combustion temperature. The engines could have been
adjusted to the higher temp all along, but weren't, because it
shortened the lifetime of the engine. When the F-4 airframe became
"old" and more "expendable", it switched to the CAS mode exclusively
- where "smokeless" was of dubious benefit, down in the trees.)
After a number of low-time engine failures, a cost/benefit analysis
returned the jets to the "smoking section"....
Ed Rasimus
jcrow...@boi.hp.com (Jeff Crowell) wrote:
>The only way to stop smoking in a Phantom would be to pull back on the (L) oud
>levers.
>
>In combat, that trail of brown smudge was a dead (literally) giveaway.
Actually the "real" smoke abatement procedure was to push forward on
the loud levers. Going to reheat would considerably abate the
smoke--not eliminate, merely reduce. Standard procedure for a lot of
guys approaching the merge was min burner--of course for some speed
freaks like moi, it was max burner.
You can never go too fast.
In Route Pack VI, a smoke trail was a good thing. With all those
trigger happy sailors and ex-bomber pilots stoogin' around looking for
a kill it was reassuring to have a three mile identification tag
trailing from your airplane to let everyone know you were friendly.
Ed Rasimus *** Peak Computing Magazine
Fighter Pilot (ret) *** (http://peak-computing.com)
*** Ziff-Davis Interactive
*** (http://www.zdnet.com)
Jeff Crowell
: Jeff Crowell wrote:
: >The only way to stop smoking in a Phantom would be to pull back on
: >the loud
: >levers.
: >
: >In combat, that trail of brown smudge was a dead (literally) giveaway.
Ed Rasimus wrote:
: Actually the "real" smoke abatement procedure was to push forward on
: the loud levers. Going to reheat would considerably abate the
: smoke--not eliminate, merely reduce. Standard procedure for a lot of
: guys approaching the merge was min burner--of course for some speed
: freaks like moi, it was max burner.
Yup, absolutely correct. I was trying to be funny (without notable
success), and knew someone was gonna call me on it. I never flew
Sleds, and had never heard, for example, of the one-in-burner, one-
in-idle trick that's been described elsewhere in this thread.
: You can never go too fast.
"Speed is life". At least as long as stuff doesn't come off the
airplane.
: In Route Pack VI, a smoke trail was a good thing. With all those
: trigger happy sailors and ex-bomber pilots stoogin' around looking for
: a kill it was reassuring to have a three mile identification tag
: trailing from your airplane to let everyone know you were friendly.
No doubt.
I still remember the chill I got when reading a Nam-era debrief where
a Phantom jock reported firing a Sparrow at "two afterburners" off to
the east. My CO at the time, Roy Cash, was present and said someone
actually had to remind the guy that the Bad Guys had no twin-
engined afterburning aircraft. The unfortunate recipients spent a couple
years in the Hilton, too.
Jeff
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Rule number 15 of gunfights:
Anything you do can get you shot, including nothing.
WWilson910
It was a concoction known as CI2, CI3, or CI4. CI stands for Combustion
Improver and was an ethyl manganate based fuid additive. If you ever saw
an F-4 the first thing you saw was black smoke trails that pointed to a
target. Most pilots don't like to fly targets so they tried to put an
invisible switch in the cockpit so people would fly the damn things.