More B-26 Nonsense from Art Kramer
robert arndt
crews heroic... but so were those that flew in B-17s, 24s, 25s, and
29s as well as our British allies that flew their Lancasters.
You seem to single the B-26 out for its "great accuracy", etc... So
what? Hans Rudel in an obsolete Stuka can put you to shame. His record
vs yours:
2530 sorties
11 air to air kills (Fw 190) plus 3 Russian (Stuka)
125+ aircraft killed on the ground
519 tanks killed
1000+ vehicles killed
150+ artillery killed
70 landing craft
1 Battleship
1 Destroyer
1 Cruiser
4 armored trains
Various bunkers, bridges, rail lines, communication centers knocked
out
11,000 tons bombs dropped
1,000,000 rds MG ammo expended
150,000 20mm rds expended
5,000 37mm rds expended
shot down 32 times
performed 6 rescues
lost right leg below knee, kept fighting, killed 23 more tanks
won Germany's greatest award Knights Cross to the Iron Cross, Golden
Oakleaves, Swords, & Diamonds
Most highly decorated and greatest war pilot of WW2
Now your record please...???
(hears silence on Art's end)
Far from being the patriot you claim, you show total disrespect for
your fellow bomber pilots who flew other aircraft other than the B-26
and dont even recognize the records of the honorable foreign
combatants. You are a joke and I don't care if you served in WW2. Its
obvious the REST of your miserable life is dedicated to making
outrageous war claims and slamming the Germans, French, and anyone
else who disagress with you.
Rob
p.s. dont bother with your typical "Nazi label" for me. I am a staunch
Republican, pro-defense, and actively support the IDF (Israeli Defense
Forces).
I just dont agree with your views on WW2 history, the B-26, and take
personal offense to your anti-German rhetoric which is posted almost
daily...
Keith Willshaw
"robert arndt" <teut...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:9b35beb1.03021...@posting.google.com...
>
More predictable praise of a Nazi superman
Keith
Crackers
"robert arndt" < wrote in message
> Why don't you give it a rest Art. ...snip...
> p.s. dont bother with your typical "Nazi label" for me. I am a staunch
> Republican, pro-defense, and actively support the IDF (Israeli Defense
> Forces).
Can we assume that you are not voting for Art to be President of the Las
Vegas Kennel Club?
ArtKramr
>From: teut...@aol.com (robert arndt)
>Date: 2/18/03 1:47 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <9b35beb1.03021...@posting.google.com>
(snip pro Nazi bullshit)
>Now your record please...???
>(hears silence on Art's end)
>
50 missions over Germany. And your record Nazi prick? Let's hear it. We're all
waiting.
Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
ArtKramr
>From: "Crackers"
>Can we assume that you are not voting for Art to be President of the Las
>Vegas Kennel Club?
>
What is your real name?. What unit did yu fly with? Why are you hiding like
such a coward?
Crackers
"robert arndt" < wrote in message
> crews heroic... but so were those that flew in B-17s, 24s, 25s, and
> 29s as well as our British allies that flew their Lancasters.
Do you think will give a rational reply or call everyone obscenities?
Naah, not our boy Art, Mercedes driver, Leica owner,Gallo wine drinker,
Greyhound afecionado, and rides on Goodyear where the rubber meets the road.
What a TV Commercial it would make.
ArtKramr
>Date: 2/18/03 6:08 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <zKmdnd2_ir3...@comcast.com>
Still driving that old Yugo?
Crackers
"ArtKramr" < wrote in message >
> What is your real name?. What unit did yu fly with? Why are you hiding
like
> such a coward?
> Arthur Kramer
>
Lafayette Escadrille
Who wants a Muscatel drinking, Dog Track habitue sleeping on their lawn? Not
me.
OXMORON1
>Still driving that old Yugo?
That was really mean!
Art, you should not use such language around a mixed group like this!
Oxmoron1
Crackers
"OXMORON1" < wrote in message
Slobadan and I are wondering what we did to deserve such a vicious and ad
hominem attack?
Jealousy again?
Gordon
that were more ardent supporters of Hitler and his racial policies than him.
Rudel's politics were so poisonous that he cost Krupinski his job simply by
virtue of his appearance at a GAF/NATO function. Rudel was undoubtably a great
combat pilot, but a real piece of shit as a human being. His standard "Stuka
Pilot" is an example of very successful editing - *most* of his hatred for
'lower life forms' was scrubbed clean to make the book palatable.
Not a guy I would use as an example...
v/r
Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR Aircrew
"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."
Chuang Shyue Chou
"Gordon" <krzta...@aol.comint> wrote in message
news:20030218111110...@mb-ft.aol.com...
> still, Rob - why'd you have to pick Rudel of all people? There were few
men
> that were more ardent supporters of Hitler and his racial policies than
him.
> Rudel's politics were so poisonous that he cost Krupinski his job simply
by
> virtue of his appearance at a GAF/NATO function. Rudel was undoubtably a
great
> combat pilot, but a real piece of shit as a human being. His standard
"Stuka
> Pilot" is an example of very successful editing - *most* of his hatred for
> 'lower life forms' was scrubbed clean to make the book palatable.
> Not a guy I would use as an example...
Scrubbed clean? Having read 'Stuka Pilot', may I know where I can find an
uncensored or unedited version of that book? I am most curious.
robert arndt
Yeah, German pilots not only didn't have the luxury of surviving just
"50" missions... but Rudel actively opposed "calling it quits"... even
from Hitler himself. He wasn't a member of the Nazi Party either, just
a patriot of the caliber Art claims to be!
And Keith- are you Art Kramer's mouthpiece? If you feel so strongly
about HIS views why don't you both take a summer vacation in France in
Art's Mercedes and take some good pictures with his Leica camera...
Rob
p.s. Don't stop in Caen!
robert arndt
You're the resident B-26 braggart. How does it feel to be overshadowed
by a lone German pilot (handicapped at that in 1945) in an old
obsolete Stuka? Pretty humiliating I'd imagine. And your 50 missions
isn't shit compared to Rudel's 2530 sorties.
Rob
OXMORON1
>> What is your real name?. What unit did yu fly with? Why are you hiding
>like
>> such a coward?
Crackers responded:
>Jacques Chirac
>Lafayette Escadrille
>Who wants a Muscatel drinking, Dog Track habitue sleeping on their lawn? Not
>me.
Waste of time Art, Crackers won't answer, put him in the class with 'Uten Sagua
Duc Shen' or 'Uten Sagua Wa Talie' and let it go at that...
Oxmoron1
ArtKramr
>From: oxmo...@aol.com (OXMORON1)
>Date: 2/18/03 11:45 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <20030218144527...@mb-dh.aol.com>
Yeah. You are right. What can we expect from someone who drives a Yugo? (sigh)
Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
Keith Willshaw
"robert arndt" <teut...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:9b35beb1.03021...@posting.google.com...
> "Keith Willshaw" <keith_w...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:<b2t2p3$kj0$1...@selma.aspentech.com>...
> > "robert arndt" <teut...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:9b35beb1.03021...@posting.google.com...
> > >
> >
> > More predictable praise of a Nazi superman
> >
> > Keith
>
> Yeah, German pilots not only didn't have the luxury of surviving just
> "50" missions... but Rudel actively opposed "calling it quits"... even
> from Hitler himself. He wasn't a member of the Nazi Party either, just
> a patriot of the caliber Art claims to be!
In fact of course he was an unrepentant Nazi as he acknowledged
when he wrote his memoirs in 1951.
The policy of not taking pilots out of the line was of course disastrous
for Germany as it meant the combat experience of those men was
not passed on to the next generation.
Art did his duty and was flying for the forces who overthrew the
tyranny of Nazi rule rather than being one of those who imposed
it on others.
> And Keith- are you Art Kramer's mouthpiece? If you feel so strongly
> about HIS views why don't you both take a summer vacation in France in
> Art's Mercedes and take some good pictures with his Leica camera...
>
> Rob
>
> p.s. Don't stop in Caen!
I speak only for myself and I thoroughly despise Nazism and
its apologists.
As for Caen I've been there, as has my father, in 1944 with the
50th Infantry Divn
Keith
Ydusitmata
> still, Rob - why'd you have to pick Rudel of all people? There were few men
> that were more ardent supporters of Hitler and his racial policies than him.
> Rudel's politics were so poisonous that he cost Krupinski his job simply by
> virtue of his appearance at a GAF/NATO function. Rudel was undoubtably a great
> combat pilot, but a real piece of shit as a human being. His standard "Stuka
> Pilot" is an example of very successful editing - *most* of his hatred for
> 'lower life forms' was scrubbed clean to make the book palatable.
>
> Not a guy I would use as an example...
>
As a person. Rob was talking about the abilities of pilots/crews, not
their personalities.
Piece of shit he may have been, but he must have been one hell of an
airman.
kiwifan
--
I am unique - like everyone else.
Alan Minyard
>p.s. dont bother with your typical "Nazi label" for me. I am a staunch
>Republican, pro-defense, and actively support the IDF (Israeli Defense
>Forces).
>I just dont agree with your views on WW2 history, the B-26, and take
>personal offense to your anti-German rhetoric which is posted almost
>daily...
Anti-German rhetoric, as it relates to WWII, is correct. The Nazis
were some of the worst criminals the world has ever seen. And your
"hero" was one of them.
Al Minyard
Peter Stickney
"Keith Willshaw" <keith@kwillshaw_NoSpam.demon.co.uk> writes:
Write in response to the Rootin' Teuton:
> In fact of course he was an unrepentant Nazi as he acknowledged
> when he wrote his memoirs in 1951.
Not to mention that he was a key figure in the Odessa orginaization,
whose sole purpose was to shuffle Nazis out of the defeated Germany
and set them up in other spots in the world.
>> p.s. Don't stop in Caen!
>
> I speak only for myself and I thoroughly despise Nazism and
> its apologists.
>
> As for Caen I've been there, as has my father, in 1944 with the
> 50th Infantry Divn
Me too, in June 1995, for the 50th Ammiversary D-Day celebations. We
(a group of American Military Vehicle collectors) were quite well
received. It was a very moving few days. There were U.S. Vets,
Brit Vets, Canadian Vets, Polish Vets, French Vets - some willing to
talk, some who needed to look on quietly. The Germans weren't invited
- rather like the original event.
--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster
ArtKramr
>Date: 2/18/03 12:21 PM Pacific Standard Time
>The Germans weren't invited
>- rather like the original event.
ROFL...Keith you are truly a master wordsmith.I love it. (grin)
robert arndt
Al,
HUMANITY throughout history has butchered millions of people. Stalin
and Mao have killed far more people than the Nazis ever did. So have
all the European colonial overlords during their reign. The US
destroyed the indigenous Indian culture as well as participated in the
cruel inhuman slave trade. The Aztecs sacrificed millions. The ancient
world did pretty much the same. Hell, China has more abortions per
year than the entire holocaust.
Rudel was an excellent war pilot- period. And the German armed forces
in WW2 were filled with heroic men just as in any of the other armed
forces. Most were NOT Nazis... just ordinary people who fought on
knowing that the war was lost the day Hitler invaded Russia.
It seems you want to label any German that fought well as a Nazi. So
when US troops are successful in Iraq does that automatically make
them American Imperialists??? Hell no. Wake-up idiot.
Rob
ArtKramr
>From: p-sti...@adelphia.net (Peter Stickney)
>Not to mention that he was a key figure in the Odessa orginaization,
>whose sole purpose was to shuffle Nazis out of the defeated Germany
>and set them up in other spots in the world.
We must also remember that all he did was worthless since both the Luftwaffe
and Germany ended up defeated and ground into the dust, a burning smoking
ruin. So in the end his achievements were worth nothing.
ArtKramr
>From: teut...@aol.com (robert arndt)
>Date: 2/18/03 11:46 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <9b35beb1.0302...@posting.google.com>
>How does it feel to be overshadowed
>by a lone German pilot (handicapped at that in 1945) in an old
>obsolete Stuka? Pretty humiliating I'd imagine. And your 50 missions
>isn't shit compared to Rudel's 2530 sorties.
>
>Rob
Thre is a difference between me and Rudel We won, He lost. Nobody gives a
damn about a loser. especially a virulent Nazi loser.You sound like you are
taking credit for what he did. You never answered the question as to how many
missions you flew. Not your father. Not Rudel. YOU. You did zero right?. I may
have flown only 50 missions, but that is 50 more than you did, rright?. You
just brag about your slimy Nazi pals as though it was you flying. You are the
king of Nazi wannabees..
Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
ArtKramr
>Hell no. Wake-up idiot.
>
>Rob
We are awake and we see you for what you are. And it isn't a pretty picture
Keith Willshaw
"ArtKramr" <artk...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030218212312...@mb-ma.aol.com...
> >Subject: Re: More B-26 Nonsense from Art Kramer
> >From: p-sti...@adelphia.net (Peter Stickney)
> >Date: 2/18/03 12:21 PM Pacific Standard Time
>
> >The Germans weren't invited
> >- rather like the original event.
>
> ROFL...Keith you are truly a master wordsmith.I love it. (grin)
>
That was Peter Stickney and he hit it right on the head
Keith
Crackers
"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message>
> "ArtKramr" < wrote in message
>> > >From: p-sti...@adelphia.net (Peter Stickney)
> > >The Germans weren't invited
> > >- rather like the original event.
> >
> > ROFL...Keith you are truly a master wordsmith.I love it. (grin)
> >
>
> That was Peter Stickney and he hit it right on the head
>
> Keith
>
Try sign language, Keith. He is in the Depends and Dog Track era of Life at
present.
Alan Minyard
Rudel was a hard core Nazi, and most Germans supported Hitler. They
were scum. Racist, bigoted, murdering scum. Comparing them to US
Troops is despicable.
Al Minyard
ArtKramr
>Date: 2/19/03 8:14 AM Pacific Standard Time
>ot to mention that he was a key figure in the Odessa orginaization,
>> whose sole purpose was to shuffle Nazis out of the defeated Germany
>> and set them up in other spots in the world.
>
>Was he? I knew Skorzeny had a major hand, was unware of Rudel's
I had lunch with Skorzeny in Madrid after the war. see my website and click on
the sstory, "Lunch with Obergruppenfuhrer Otto Skorzeny".You might find it
interesting.
B2431
>I had lunch with Skorzeny in Madrid after the war. see my website and click
>on
>the sstory, "Lunch with Obergruppenfuhrer Otto Skorzeny".You might find it
>interesting.
>
>
>
>
>Arthur Kramer
>Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>
>
Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired
clif...@netdoor.com
>Why don't you give it a rest Art. The B-26 is a fine aircraft and the
>crews heroic... but so were those that flew in B-17s, 24s, 25s, and
>29s as well as our British allies that flew their Lancasters.
>You seem to single the B-26 out for its "great accuracy", etc... So
>what? Hans Rudel in an obsolete Stuka can put you to shame. His record
>vs yours:
>
>2530 sorties
>11 air to air kills (Fw 190) plus 3 Russian (Stuka)
>125+ aircraft killed on the ground
>519 tanks killed
>1000+ vehicles killed
>150+ artillery killed
>70 landing craft
>1 Battleship
>1 Destroyer
>1 Cruiser
>4 armored trains
>Various bunkers, bridges, rail lines, communication centers knocked
>out
>11,000 tons bombs dropped
>1,000,000 rds MG ammo expended
>150,000 20mm rds expended
>5,000 37mm rds expended
>
>shot down 32 times
>performed 6 rescues
>lost right leg below knee, kept fighting, killed 23 more tanks
>won Germany's greatest award Knights Cross to the Iron Cross, Golden
>Oakleaves, Swords, & Diamonds
>Most highly decorated and greatest war pilot of WW2
>
>Now your record please...???
>(hears silence on Art's end)
>
>Far from being the patriot you claim, you show total disrespect for
>your fellow bomber pilots who flew other aircraft other than the B-26
>and dont even recognize the records of the honorable foreign
>combatants. You are a joke and I don't care if you served in WW2. Its
>obvious the REST of your miserable life is dedicated to making
>outrageous war claims and slamming the Germans, French, and anyone
>else who disagress with you.
>
>Rob
>
>p.s. dont bother with your typical "Nazi label" for me. I am a staunch
>Republican, pro-defense, and actively support the IDF (Israeli Defense
>Forces).
>I just dont agree with your views on WW2 history, the B-26, and take
>personal offense to your anti-German rhetoric which is posted almost
>daily...
Udet was only able to live as long as he did with Nazi air supremacy
available. Otherwise, the Ju57 is a death trap.
ArtKramr
>Date: 2/20/03 6:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Udet was only able to live as long as he did with Nazi air supremacy
>available. Otherwise, the Ju57 is a death trap.
Nazi Air Supremacy??? Yeah. Once we got there that lasted 20 minures.The
Luftwaffe was a paper tiger good agianst only tiny poorly armed nations. The
RAF stopped it dead and they went down into the toilet after that. And swine
like Udet added zero to any dream of Nazi victory.
clif...@netdoor.com
>"Keith Willshaw" <keith_w...@compuserve.com> wrote in message news:<b2t2p3$kj0$1...@selma.aspentech.com>...
>> "robert arndt" <teut...@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:9b35beb1.03021...@posting.google.com...
>> >
>>
>> More predictable praise of a Nazi superman
>>
>> Keith
>
>Yeah, German pilots not only didn't have the luxury of surviving just
>"50" missions... but Rudel actively opposed "calling it quits"... even
>from Hitler himself. He wasn't a member of the Nazi Party either, just
>a patriot of the caliber Art claims to be!
Too bad he chose the wrong side.
clif...@netdoor.com
Too bad you can't see my solitary middle finger, Quackers.
clif...@netdoor.com
The only reason Rudel was able to complete his number of sorties was
the absence of opposing fighters. One Hurricane in the right place and
Rudel would be so much refuse (which he was anyway, being a Nazi).
And lest we forget, the Nazi's LOST the war.
clif...@netdoor.com
Perhaps. But the lack of opposing fighters had as much to do with his
longevity as did his airmanship.
ArtKramr
>From: clif...@netdoor.com
>Date: 2/20/03 3:48 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <3e556944...@news.netdoor.com>
>>"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message>
>>> "ArtKramr" < wrote in message
>>>> > >From: p-sti...@adelphia.net (Peter Stickney)
>>
>>
>>> > >The Germans weren't invited
>>> > >- rather like the original event.
>>> >
>>> > ROFL...Keith you are truly a master wordsmith.I love it. (grin)
>>> >
>>>
>>> That was Peter Stickney and he hit it right on the head
>>>
>>> Keith
>>>
>>Try sign language, Keith. He is in the Depends and Dog Track era of Life at
>>present.
>
>Too bad you can't see my solitary middle finger, Quackers.
>
"Quackers" I love it. From here on in he will be known as "Quackers".(rofl)
Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
ArtKramr
>Message-id: <3e5568e5...@news.netdoor.com>
That guy just won't quit on the subject of Nazi superman. Rudel chose not to
call it quits so he go on killing for the Nazi cause. I stopped at 50 because
the war ended.Think the Teutonic Superman would understand that rather
important difference? And there reason he can shoot his stupid mouth off in
this NG is not because of what Rudel did. It is because a bunch of American
and British kids kicked Rudels ass.But I don't think he realises that.
Peter Stickney
I can't take credit for it. It was told to me by one of the British
MVCC (Military Vehicle Collector's Club) organizers. A Royal Marines
tanker, who went ashore on D-Day with Centaur tanks that had had their
Liberty engines hastily reinstalled just before the invasion.
robert arndt
Thanks Art for another flawed history lesson. The RAF fighter command
was slowly being destroyed in 1940- their airfields bombed, their
production facilities in ruins, short on airframes, short on skilled
pilots, sustaining losses that although were fewer than the Germans
(who could replenish them from the continent) cost them dearly.
They were slowly losing the battle until a lone lost German bomber
ditched its bombs over London, leading to a small reprisal raid, which
infuriated Hitler, who under Goerings persuation switched Luftwaffe
tactics to attacking civilian targets instead of military ones.
That's what won the BoB- a lone German bomber crews mistake and
Hitler's error in judgement when ordering London be attacked instead.
The RAF benefitted immediately and recovered. The Germans abandoned
the fight in the west and prepared for conquest in the east, which
incidentally was always Hitler's ultimate goal anyway.
The Spitfire (Hurricane really) and the 300 did NOT save Britain
contrary to popular belief. How irionic too that the German pilots
responsible were reprimanded for dropping bombs on London against the
Fuhrer's orders.
Think about that for a moment...
Rob
Keith Willshaw
> artk...@aol.com (ArtKramr) wrote in message
news:<20030220103323...@mb-fq.aol.com>...
> > >Subject: Re: More B-26 Nonsense from Art Kramer
> > >From: clif...@netdoor.com
> > >Date: 2/20/03 6:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
>
> Thanks Art for another flawed history lesson. The RAF fighter command
> was slowly being destroyed in 1940- their airfields bombed, their
> production facilities in ruins, short on airframes, short on skilled
> pilots, sustaining losses that although were fewer than the Germans
> (who could replenish them from the continent) cost them dearly.
This turns out to be incorrect. The RAF actually was training more
pilots and building more aircraft than the Luftwaffe. At the end
of every month the RAF was stronger than it had been at
the beginning and the Luftwaffe weaker.
Even in the month of August, which was the height of the attacks
on the airfields British fighter strength steadily ROSE as replacement
rates exceeded losses.
In the Luftwaffe the opposite was true. Their available force as 10%
weaker on Sept 1 1940 than it had been on July 1
> They were slowly losing the battle until a lone lost German bomber
> ditched its bombs over London, leading to a small reprisal raid, which
> infuriated Hitler, who under Goerings persuation switched Luftwaffe
> tactics to attacking civilian targets instead of military ones.
This is an urban myth.
The decision to switch to attacking London was taken at a staff
meeting in the Hague on Sept 3 1940. At that meeting the Luftwaffe
commanders with exception of Hugo Sperle assured Goering that
the RAF was down to its last 100 aircraft and that all that was needed
now was to attack the one target Britain had to defend - London.
Then the last reserves could be destroyed.
Alas poor Hermann , the attack when it came was met
by more than 25 squadrons including the Duxford big wing
of 5 squadrons. Npo wonder Luftwafe morale took a beating.
> That's what won the BoB- a lone German bomber crews mistake and
> Hitler's error in judgement when ordering London be attacked instead.
> The RAF benefitted immediately and recovered. The Germans abandoned
> the fight in the west and prepared for conquest in the east, which
> incidentally was always Hitler's ultimate goal anyway.
> The Spitfire (Hurricane really) and the 300 did NOT save Britain
> contrary to popular belief. How irionic too that the German pilots
> responsible were reprimanded for dropping bombs on London against the
> Fuhrer's orders.
> Think about that for a moment...
Try a little research instead of blindly accepting whats shown
on the history channel.
Keith
robert arndt
> > That's what won the BoB- a lone German bomber crews mistake and
> > Hitler's error in judgement when ordering London be attacked instead.
> > The RAF benefitted immediately and recovered. The Germans abandoned
> > the fight in the west and prepared for conquest in the east, which
> > incidentally was always Hitler's ultimate goal anyway.
> > The Spitfire (Hurricane really) and the 300 did NOT save Britain
> > contrary to popular belief. How irionic too that the German pilots
> > responsible were reprimanded for dropping bombs on London against the
> > Fuhrer's orders.
> > Think about that for a moment...
>
> Try a little research instead of blindly accepting whats shown
> on the history channel.
>
> Keith
I am familiar with this historical tactic of trying to use total
numbers of German aircraft destroyed (fighter and bomber strength) to
lessen the blows to Fighter Command in Aug 1940 and inflate their
success.
By end of August RAF fighter losses were beginning to become critical
in terms of both aircraft AND pilots. The RAF had lost 390 fighters
that month against the Germans 254. It was at this point that the
Germans were beginning to slowly turn the tide.But that lone German
bomber incident of Aug 24th changed everything. It directly led to the
Aug 25th British reprisal raid, then Hitler's decision to switch
tactics on Sept 2nd, followed by his famous Sept 4th speech promising
revenge raids on civilian targets, and finally the Sept 7th beginning
of the attacks on London, which was the salvation of Fighter Command.
In terms of fighter losses exclusively (aircraft AND pilots lost), the
RAF had reached the crisis level by Aug 31st.
Rob
p.s. You also failed to mention that the superior Me-109s were
operating at their maximum range with almost 100% assurance of being
captured if they were shot down over British territory. The British
OTOH, had every advantage over their own territory yet STILL was
critical in trained pilots due to Luftwaffe inflicted losses.
Keith Willshaw
> >
> > > That's what won the BoB- a lone German bomber crews mistake and
> > > Hitler's error in judgement when ordering London be attacked instead.
> > > The RAF benefitted immediately and recovered. The Germans abandoned
> > > the fight in the west and prepared for conquest in the east, which
> > > incidentally was always Hitler's ultimate goal anyway.
> > > The Spitfire (Hurricane really) and the 300 did NOT save Britain
> > > contrary to popular belief. How irionic too that the German pilots
> > > responsible were reprimanded for dropping bombs on London against the
> > > Fuhrer's orders.
> > > Think about that for a moment...
> >
> > Try a little research instead of blindly accepting whats shown
> > on the history channel.
> >
> > Keith
>
> I am familiar with this historical tactic of trying to use total
> numbers of German aircraft destroyed (fighter and bomber strength) to
> lessen the blows to Fighter Command in Aug 1940 and inflate their
> success.
> By end of August RAF fighter losses were beginning to become critical
> in terms of both aircraft AND pilots. The RAF had lost 390 fighters
> that month against the Germans 254. It was at this point that the
> Germans were beginning to slowly turn the tide.
The British losses were replaceable. While the RAF had lost 390
fighters 2/3 of the pilots were able to bail out and return to
active duty and witth a sizable reserve of aircraft and new production
running at 150 per month there was no shortage of aircraft.
On the other hand almost all the German pilots were lost, either
killed or taken prisoner. In fact the Luftwaffe was losing pilots
at double the rate of the RAF and training fewer replacements
The simple fact is that even at the hardest pressed of the11 Group
airfields , Biggin Hill, on 1 Sept 1940 the squadrons reported
the follwing availability
72 Squadron - Spitfires - pilots 15 Aircraft 20
79 Squadron - Spitfires - pilots 10 aircraft 17
501 squadron - Hurricanes - pilots 12 aircraft 22
By the end of August the stukas has suffered such crippling
losses that they had been wihdrawn from the battle and
the Me-110 had to escorted by Me-109's such was its
lack of success
> But that lone German
> bomber incident of Aug 24th changed everything. It directly led to the
> Aug 25th British reprisal raid, then Hitler's decision to switch
> tactics on Sept 2nd, followed by his famous Sept 4th speech promising
> revenge raids on civilian targets, and finally the Sept 7th beginning
> of the attacks on London, which was the salvation of Fighter Command.
Once again be aware that this is wrong
The famous 'revenge raid' of August 25th was no more aimed
at Berlin that the raid of the 24th had been aimed at London
There were 2 raids that night
1 by Hampdens of 49 and 50 Squadrons aimed at Templehof airfield
and another by Wellingtons aimed at the Siemens works neaby
The aimining point was covered by 10/10 cloud and the bombers
dropped by dead reckoning. As a result the only bombs to hit anything
destoyed a summerhouse in the garden of a Berlin suburb.
As for the decision to attack London this was NOT issued by Hitler.
Hitler lifted his restrictions on attacking London and as a result
Goering convened a meeting of his commanders on Sept 3 at
the Hague. It was KESSELRING who urged the attack on London
contending that the RAF was conserving fighters at Duxford now that
Biggin Hill was wrecked and all its fighters destroyed (this at
the time when it had 2 squadrons of Spifires available and a
squadron of Hurricanes dispersed to Gravesend)
Goering supported his view stating
<Quote>
My fellow commanders, we are now on the brink of victory. An assault and an
invasion of England is now more promising than ever before. Our intelligence
has now informed us that the RAF is now down to less than a hundred fighter
aircraft, the airfields protecting London are out of action because of the
superb and accurate bombing of our bomber forces, their communications are
in disarray, and now we are told, their air commanders are arguing with each
other.
Gentlemen, another phase is now almost complete. The RAF is now no longer
the great threat that it used to be, and we can now draw every available
fighter plane that the RAF has into the air, because the next target must be
London
</Quote>
This really is quite well documented
> In terms of fighter losses exclusively (aircraft AND pilots lost), the
> RAF had reached the crisis level by Aug 31st.
>
In fact this is what the Luftwaffe believed but they were in fact wrong.
the RAF had more aircraft and pilots available for Battle on Sept 1
than they had on August 1
Williamson Murray Strategy For Defeat Quintet 1986 pp48-50
gives German losses at the end of August as
AIRCRAFT DESTROYED PILOTS lost *
Bf109 229 182
Bf110 123 104
Do17 75 65
*killed captured missing or seriously injured
> Rob
>
> p.s. You also failed to mention that the superior Me-109s were
> operating at their maximum range with almost 100% assurance of being
> captured if they were shot down over British territory. The British
> OTOH, had every advantage over their own territory yet STILL was
> critical in trained pilots due to Luftwaffe inflicted losses.
But won, the simple reality is the Luftwaffe were losing a war
of attrition. They were believing their own propaganda
but at the bginning of Sptember when Goering and
Kesselring proclaimed the RAF was down to its last 100
aircraft the RAF actually had 750 serviceable fighter aircraft
in first line service with 1,381 pilots available for duty and the
training schools were turning out 280 new pilots a month.
At the same time Erhard Milch reported that all Luftwaffe
units were considerably under strength due to the losses
sustained. Out of a normal establishment of 35-40 aircraft
in a Gruppe the bombers on average were down to 20 and
the Bf-109's averaged 18 and the Bf-110's 17.
The Luftwaffe was the force bleeding to death not the RAF
and its noteworthy that throughout the battle the RAF was still
able to rotate units out of 11 group to quieter sectors
for a rest and even send pilots on leave.
So although neither they nor the RAF knew it at the time they
were already losing the battle when they made the decision
to attack London.
Keith
Alan Minyard
I was wondering when that urban legend would reappear. It has been
around so long that it is gospel to some.
Al Minyard
ArtKramr
>Date: 2/21/03 2:36 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <7trc5vss7o4hr8veb...@4ax.com>
These legends go on forever. Everybody is an expert. (Seesh)
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised
<keith@kwillshaw_NoSpam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>As for Caen I've been there, as has my father, in 1944 with the
>50th Infantry Divn
Bunch of looting shirkers, unlike those paragons of moral rectitude in
the Highway Decorators.
Gavin Bailey
--
Bart show you running dog. Work so smooth, have no problem at all.
Solution elegant. Yes. Minor problem, use 25000 CPU cycle for 1
instruction, this why all need overclock Pentium. Dumbass.
- Bart Kwan En
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised
>I am familiar with this historical tactic of trying to use total
>numbers of German aircraft destroyed (fighter and bomber strength) to
>lessen the blows to Fighter Command in Aug 1940 and inflate their
>success.
You call listing the German bomber and fighter losses to Fighter
Command as "inflating" their success? You have a rather unique
appreciation of such things.
>By end of August RAF fighter losses were beginning to become critical
>in terms of both aircraft AND pilots. The RAF had lost 390 fighters
>that month against the Germans 254.
Shame that the primary purpose and constant operational object of
Fighter Command was to shoot down German bombers. By excluding those
inconvenient statistics, you wouldn't be attempting to inflate
Luftwaffe success would you?
> It was at this point that the
>Germans were beginning to slowly turn the tide.
So much so that they lost the battle. Oh, sorry, you seemed to forget
the outcome of their Teutonic genius there for a second.
>p.s. You also failed to mention that the superior Me-109s were
>operating at their maximum range with almost 100% assurance of being
>captured if they were shot down over British territory. The British
>OTOH, had every advantage over their own territory yet STILL was
>critical in trained pilots due to Luftwaffe inflicted losses.
Yet Fighter Command still defeated them. Obviously a result you feel
uncomfortable about. Have a wank over your "Aryan Supermen" gay porn
mag somewhere else.
ArtKramr
>Date: 2/24/03 4:20 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Yet Fighter Command still defeated them. Obviously a result you feel
>uncomfortable about. Have a wank over your "Aryan Supermen" gay porn
>mag somewhere else.
>
>Gavin Bailey
And it was 18 year old kids that did the job. FIrst Brits at the B of B, then
Americans drove home the knife..
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised
>>Yet Fighter Command still defeated them. Obviously a result you feel
>>uncomfortable about. Have a wank over your "Aryan Supermen" gay porn
>>mag somewhere else.
>>
>>Gavin Bailey
>
>And it was 18 year old kids that did the job. FIrst Brits at the B of B, then
>Americans drove home the knife..
There were some token Americans in the BoB as well, as well as
increasing numbers in the RAF and RCAF before Pearl Harbor. But it
took the combined efforts of everybody involved to do the job. I
think the Americans can be justifiably proud of what their nation
achieved, both in fighting WW2 and in the European reconstruction
which followed.
Not that any of that will stop me sounding off when I think the myth
of criticality is being invoked to say that the Americans did it all.
George
What amazes me most of all is how the USA built so much so quick....the
sheer industrial capacity is staggering.
George
--
www.angelfire.com/apes/scramble
page last updated in October 2002
Forward offensive SPAM to u...@ftc.gov
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised
wrote:
>What amazes me most of all is how the USA built so much so quick....the
>sheer industrial capacity is staggering.
What impresses me is the quality of the people who got into the
machines and fought, using them, to win the war. I understand the
impressiveness of the production statistics, but sometimes the
materiel obsession misses the point that the war wasn't won by
churning out thousands of Destroyers, Shermans or P-47s and leaving
them to accumulate in vast storage parks. The weapons needed to be
employed, and the real success of the US forces lies in the way in
which they managed to do that.
I feel, the quantity and mass argument tends to undervalue the human
dynamic: episodes like Guadalcanal and the US forces in the SW
Pacific as a whole indicate that the quality of the human resources
wasn't lacking, even when the material means was. There was a lot
more to the US war effort than raw production statistics.
M. J. Powell
<g...@getlostspammers.org> writes
500 bombers a week at the end, I understand. Hence Yamamoto's comment
about 'a sleeping giant'.
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
George
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised wrote:
You mean there were people IN the tanks, ships and planes?
;-)
Seriously though, I realise all that of course and I in no way meant to
undervalue any of it but still, to compare the US military of 1941 to
that of 1944/5. That is some achievement no other country could match in
terms of scale of numbers and technical advances.
On the other hand, there were quality people in every army air force and
navy. (Yes, I'm sure even the French)
blackfire
> >From: occu...@bonkers.net (The Revolution Will Not Be Televised)
> >Date: 2/24/03 4:20 AM Pacific Standard Time
>
> >Yet Fighter Command still defeated them. Obviously a result you feel
> >uncomfortable about. Have a wank over your "Aryan Supermen" gay porn
> >mag somewhere else.
> >
> >Gavin Bailey
>
> And it was 18 year old kids that did the job. FIrst Brits at the B of B, then
> Americans drove home the knife..
From about 1942 to 1943 most of the losses in the Luftwaffe were to
the Russian pilots.