Castor oil in rotary engines

[Ramsman]

Seeing a mention of castor oil in another context (not the medicinal
use), I was wondering whether WWI vintage rotaries do have to use it for
lubrication these days, rather then modern mineral oils. Did they have
to back then, as the mineral oils hadn't been developed enough?

What I do know is that the smell, as experienced at places like Old
Warden, is marvellous.
--
Peter

[Vaughn]

One consideration with those old rotary engines is that the pilot is
constantly breathing a fog of whatever lubrication the engine is using.
The effect of caster oil on the human body is pretty well known! It
can be quite inconvenient, but isn't thought to be dangerous. I would
seriously worry about the long-tern health effect of any other
lubricant, especially modern synthetic lubricants.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Ramsman" <nos...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:n4Ius.527005$lz1.1...@fx28.am4...

This suggests they still use it:
http://www.aero-web.org/museums/ny/ora.htm

The only plane of theirs I've been up in is the New Standard D-25
which has a Wright J-5 radial.
jsw

[Keith W]

ISTR that Castor Oil was a good lubricant across a wide
range of temperatures than the mineral oils of the day. Where
a mineral oil burns on overheating castor oil produces a wax
that retains acceptable lubrication properties.

Prior to the introduction of modern synthetics the lubricant
of choice for motorcycle racers was Castrol R which was
castor oil based and it is in fact still available as castrol R 40

Keith

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article <k9g0s4$rn7$1...@speranza.aioe.org>,

Castor oil serves as a rather strong laxative, which is why many WW-I
pilots carried a flask of blackberry brandy with them, to counter the
laxative effect of the castor oil. It also explains the high degree of
alcoholism among that group of early pilots.

[Ramsman]

That confirms my suspicion that the mineral oils back then weren't up to
the task.

Somewhere among my books from way back when is a small paperback
published by Castrol, showing, among other machines, the cars etc. that
were world record holders lubricated with Castrol R.

I'm hoping that next season's weather will be better so I can once again
get a good sniff of those Shuttleworth rotaries. Meanwhile I'll have to
be satisfied with the breadmaker as a treat for the olfactory nerves.

--
Peter

[Jim Wilkins]

"Juergen Nieveler" <juergen.nie...@arcor.de> wrote in message
news:XnsA11DD228D115...@nieveler.org...

> Orval Fairbairn <orfai...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Castor oil serves as a rather strong laxative, which is why many
>> WW-I
>> pilots carried a flask of blackberry brandy with them, to counter
>> the
>> laxative effect of the castor oil. It also explains the high degree
>> of
>> alcoholism among that group of early pilots.
>

> IIRC this was also the reason for silk scarves - pilots put them in
> front of their mouth and nose to be able to breath without inhaling
> as
> much castor oil.
> Juergen Nieveler

I read that the scarf was to protect their necks from the leather
flight jacket collar while they scanned all around for the enemy. Many
WW1 fighters used water-cooled 4-cycle engines that didn't require oil
mixed into the gasoline.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispano-Suiza_8
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes_D.III

jsw

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article <E1Ous.558046$Bz2.3...@fx11.am4>,

This is also true, as the lubrication technology had a long way to go.
The lube oils of the day were little better than raw crude, while castor
oil was a predictable quantity, which delivered excellent lubrication at
elevated temperatures.

It really wasn't until the late 1950s/early 1960s that high-quality
petroleum-based lubrication oils came along.

Of course, the highest-quality lube oil was sperm whale oil that had
been aged for several years. The Russians used it in their jet engines
until the end of the Cold War.

[coffelt2]

"Ramsman" <nos...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:n4Ius.527005$lz1.1...@fx28.am4...

In the 1940's and early 1950's, air cooled, 2 cycle model airplane
engines used castor oil. It supposedly didn't burn and "carbon up"
like available petroleum based lubricants.
In original 2 cycle engines, the fuel/lube mixture was burned,
and whatever carbon was generated had to be dealt with. Scrape,
scrape, scrape.................

Old Chief Lynn, W7LTQ

[Keith W]

And silk scarves were prized by pilots in WW2
who had enclosed cockpits.

Keith

[Keith W]

True into the 1970's in motorcycle engines and even
in some car engines like the Saab/Wartburg 3 cylinder
2 stroke. Later versions of these engines had service
intervals of 30,000 miles at a time when most manufacturers
were still using 3,000.

Keith

[Jim Wilkins]

"coffelt2" <coff...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Ys2dnWWemORSxyHN...@giganews.com...

>
> In the 1940's and early 1950's, air cooled, 2 cycle model
> airplane
> engines used castor oil. It supposedly didn't burn and "carbon up"
> like available petroleum based lubricants.
> In original 2 cycle engines, the fuel/lube mixture was burned,
> and whatever carbon was generated had to be dealt with. Scrape,
> scrape, scrape.................
>
> Old Chief Lynn, W7LTQ

http://www.go-cl.se/castor.html

[Dean Markley]

Would the East German Trabant be included there?

[Jeff Crowell]

Juergen Nieveler wrote:
> IIRC this was also the reason for silk scarves - pilots put them in
> front of their mouth and nose to be able to breath without inhaling as
> much castor oil.

The way I heard it, the scarf was used to wipe the oil from their
goggles! Though I can't imagine that did much for their optical
qualities.

The WWII guys claimed it was to keep their necks from getting
irritated as they twisted their heads back and forth to 'Check
Six'. Undoubtedly it was also for swag, as it still is today.

I once got thrown out of a USAF O-club whilst on a cross-country
with several of my buds. We saw all the zoomies strutting around
with their (squadron-specific) scarves and felt bad that we didn't
have them, so we went to the head and fashioned ourselves "Scarves,
Field Expedient" out of toilet paper. A general present didn't
think it was all that funny and ran us off (and wrote a nastygram
to our skipper, too).

The skipper called us in, read the 'gram out loud, was unable to
keep a straight face, and told us to get the hell out of his office.


Jeff
--
It's no use accusing Islamic terrorists of being
medieval. In 1350, Islam underlay the most glittering,
tolerant, hopeful and advanced societies on Earth. It
was not, repeat not, Cantor Fitzgerald who reduced them
to the whimpering tyranny, corruption and poverty that
distinguish them on this planet today.
Alan Lothian

[Keith W]

Yep, the Trabant was effectively powered by a 2 cylinder
version of the 3 cylinder Wartburg engine.

Keith

[coffelt2]

"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:k9if7j$lj6$1...@dont-email.me...

Wow! Thanks for pointing to that paper on castor oil!
It's always great to hear from someone who
actually knows the whole story!

Old Chief Lynn, W7LTQ

[Diogenes]

Wow, does that back memories. In the late 60's I had a Saab stroker
(known in Europe as a "ringading" from the distinctive sound of the
exhaust). Absolutely great little vehicle: superb aerodynamics,
handled like a sportscar and never once got stuck in the snow. Engine
weighed only ~ 120 lbs so you could lift it out by hand.

Of course if you hooked it up to an emissions analyzer today the darn
thing would go right off the scale.
----
Diogenes

The wars are long, the peace is frail
The madmen come again . . . .

[Keith W]

That was the reason for the demise of the two stroke
Wartburg. It was made for export in the DDR and failed
to meet EU emissions regulations in the 1980's

Keith

[Ian B MacLure]

"Keith W" <keithnosp...@demon.co.uk> wrote in news:0KMus.376303
$Xv.2...@fx07.am4:

So the trademark "Castrol" derives from this source I'm guessing.

And as to modern synthetics....
According to legend one of the reasons the FUSSR maintained a
whale hunt was that whale oil was the lubricant of choice for
applications like ICBM gyroscopes.

IBM

[Ian B MacLure]

Orval Fairbairn <orfai...@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:orfairbairn-4AF6...@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net:

[snip]

> Of course, the highest-quality lube oil was sperm whale oil that had
> been aged for several years. The Russians used it in their jet engines
> until the end of the Cold War.

My dad worked for many years in airline ramp servicing in places
that got Russian civilan traffic ( saw a TU-114 when I was 4 ).
He never mentioned whale oil just their use of kerosene as
fuel.

IBM

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article <XnsA121EC6D9CA...@216.196.121.131>,

They also used it in their jet engines. According to an old friend who
researched it at SRI, aged sperm whale oil (the old Elgin Watch Oil) is
te most stable and best lubricant there is.

[Peter Stickney]

I'm a little puzzled by that - Normal jet fuel (Jet-A) is kerosene,
it's just made to a bit tighter specs than the other Kerosene fuels.
(Well, except for RP-1 rocket propellant)
Jet-A that doesn't make the cut goes out the door as #1 Diesel Fuel,
or K-1 Kerosene for heating and lighting.

--
Pete Stickney
From the foothills of the Florida Alps

[Ian B MacLure]

Peter Stickney <p_sti...@verizon.net> wrote in news:uejdp9-2hk.ln1
@Heimdall.local.net:

Dad knew the difference between Jet-A and whatever it was the
Russians burnt. He called it kerosene.

IBM

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article <XnsA123E29079...@216.196.121.131>,

Ian B MacLure <i...@svpal.org> wrote:

It probably had a somewhat different smell from that of Western jet
fuels. The composition probably relates back to their crude oil and
engine design lifetimes.

Jet engines will run on just about any form of combustible liquid --
they will even run on coal, if you can find an effective way to pump and
meter it.

[coffelt2]

"Orval Fairbairn" <orfai...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:orfairbairn-968B...@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net...

During the early 1950's, servicing our USAF jets on various
non-military airfields
around Europe, we took almost anything the field could deliver. The "-1"
T.O.s
described the engine performance peculiarities with common fuels. Two of the
most important things for us "grease monkeys" to acquire, and document was
the provider's name of the fuel, and it's specific gravity. Using a little
math, we
had to convert gallons or liters into pounds. The actual weight of the fuel
loaded aboard the aircraft, when entered into the ship's performance charts
gave information about take-off parameters, length of burn at various
altitudes,
and stuff above our pay grade

OK, this doesn't have anything to do with caster oil, but it's my
story, and
I'm sticking to it.

Old Chief Lynn.

[Dave Kearton]

"coffelt2" <coff...@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:AYCdnYMhcJSnTVvN...@giganews.com...

>

> OK, this doesn't have anything to do with caster oil, but it's my
> story, and
> I'm sticking to it.
>
> Old Chief Lynn.
>

...and still interesting.



--



Cheers

Dave Kearton

[Peter Stickney]

Yep - fuel is stored by the gallon/liter and burned by the lb/kg.
Back when the Air Force and Navy were making cross country records
and air refueling wasn't available, one trick was to drop large cans
of Dry Ice into the fuel trucks to chill the fuel and increase its
density. Every extra lb helped.
Through the Early '50s, the Navy ran its jets on AVGAS, so that they
would only need one type of fuel on the carrier. The engine didn't
care, much, although it needed some oil added to it for lubricating
the fuel-driven stuff like the fuel control governors, but safety
concerns and the range hit that they took from the low density fuel
(Gasoline is 6.0 lbs/gal, more or less, and Kerosene (Jet fuel) is
6.5 - 6.7 ls/gal for the same energy density. That's an automatic
hit of 10% on range.

> OK, this doesn't have anything to do with caster oil, but it's
> my
> story, and
> I'm sticking to it.

Oh yeah, one other thing - the really old stuff like the Goblin engine
used in the DeHaviland Vampire could burn AVGAS, but the book called
for a hot section inspection when you got home. (Manual fuel metering)

[coffelt2]

> Oh yeah, one other thing - the really old stuff like the Goblin engine
> used in the DeHaviland Vampire could burn AVGAS, but the book called
> for a hot section inspection when you got home. (Manual fuel metering)
>
> --
> Pete Stickney
> From the foothills of the Florida Alps

Some of our F-84E's had the throttle "Idle stop" adjusted back below
normal ground idle, so the mixture could be leaned out at extreme
altitude to prevent overtemp and/or overspeed. Apparently
the fuel control on the early J-35's turned into a veritable "faucet"
above normal operating altitudes.
The alternative was to switch the fuel control to "emerg" where
the throttle became, as Pete described, a manual fuel metering valve.

More stickin' to it....
Old Chief Lynn

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article <8p6op9-...@Heimdall.local.net>,

The lead in avgas -- especially the Grade 115/145 stuff, left lead
deposits on the turbine blades. That is why they added TCP to the gas --
especially in planes like the B-36, which had 6 R-4360s plus 4 jets.

[Ian B MacLure]

Orval Fairbairn <orfai...@earthlink.net> wrote in news:orfairbairn-

28CA4B.122...@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net:

[snip]

> The lead in avgas -- especially the Grade 115/145 stuff, left lead
> deposits on the turbine blades. That is why they added TCP to the gas --
> especially in planes like the B-36, which had 6 R-4360s plus 4 jets.

It wasn't until I saw the 36H at Castle Air Force Base that I
realised just what a monster that bird was. My dad used to see
them when he was in ground service at Gander back in the late 40s,
early 50s.

IBM

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article <XnsA128E551C5...@216.196.121.131>,

Ian B MacLure <i...@svpal.org> wrote:

I used to see them flying overhead back then, too. One time one came
over at about 1500 ft -- what a distinctive sound! Sometimes one would
be trailing some smoke from an engine -- I understand that keeping those
4360s all running was a full-time challenge.