Why didn't WW2 Germany build the Heinkel He-280?
David E. Powell
I always wondered why Germany didn't go with that plane, it was flying
earlier than the 262 and I am wondering if it could have come out in
numbers quicker. It had two jet engines and carried an armament of 4
20mm cannons in the nose. (Much like the British Gloster Meteor did.)
We're probably lucky that they didn't.
eyeball
wrote:
While the references I found in a quick search seem to concentrate on
it's shortcomings as the reason it was suceeded by the 262, I seem to
recall that politics had a hand in it also. If the Germans had gotten
280s into production, and then maybe brought up the 262 later, and not
wasted recources on the 163 (Wild and fantastic as it was) and He162,
they might have made more of a dent in the allied armadas. They'd
still have lost the war, but might have prolonged it slightly longer.
Rob Arndt
wrote:
At the time there was no Luftwaffe need for jet aircraft to win the
war as everything was going well with the Blitzkrieg. Hitler had also
delayed advanced technologies while Heinkel was out of favor with the
Nazi Party which was leaning on Messerschmitt's design that went back
to 1938.
And in the end, it is debatable whether the He-280 would have been
better than the Me-262 anyway:
It originally flew in 1940 with 2x HeS 8 engines and was slated for 2x
Jumo 004As. Armament was to be 3x MG-151 and possibly up to 6 in
projected latter models which might have also featured a V-tail. Speed
was estimated at between 510-560 mph with provision of a 500 kg bomb
load... nothing exceptional when compared to the Me-262.
Even in 1942, with a mock-dogfight with the Fw-190 (which the He-280
won), no one was interested in Heinkel's fighter. And why would they
since the daylight bombing raids had not commenced and the escort
fighters did not even arrive until later.
Only near the end did the He-162 (originally He-500 Spatz) succeed due
to fast construction under the Volksjaeger competition, simplicity of
design, a single BMW-003 powerplant, and established SS underground
facilities that could theoretically produce 1000 a/c per month. As it
was, the He-162 saw limited combat in April-May with 2-4 claimed kills
and 900 of them were under construction when the war ended.
Rob
eyeball
I don't know I'd call the 162 a success, considering how hard it was
to fly, when it was meant for the Hitler Youth and inexperienced
pilots.
Rob Arndt
>
> - Show quoted text -
That's always been so much BS. Operational He-162s were flown by
Luftwaffe pilots of JG-1 at Leck. The Luftwaffe ultimately accepted
120 He-162s and no HJ pilots flew one nor would they have.
I suggest you read a reliable unbiased book like, "World War II
Fighting Jets" by Jeffrey Ethell & Alfred Price. You don't have to
read a Schiffer guide or Motorbooks book, but the facts are all the
same.
The only truth about the crudeness of the He-162 was that it was
designed to be manufactured with semi-skilled and unskilled labor. Yet
it was a decent design considering all factors. All of the major
Allies captured and flight tested the He-162: US, Britain, France,
USSR.
Rob
eyeball
I have read it. And it was a dead end that accomplished nothing.
Rob Arndt
>
> - Show quoted text -
What else could they have done short of pushing SAMs?
The German a/c industry already was producing half its inventory with
the two fighters- Me Bf 109 and Fw-190. More would not have helped and
the future was jet propulsion- even the Allies realized that in 1945.
That the He-162 was even produced is a miracle under the round-the-
clock bombing and severe shortage of materials, fuel, and pilots. Yet,
it was designed quickly, problems corrected as fast as possible, units
delivered to JG-1, and operational status by late April. Add the 4
kills by the surrender and it IS quite an accomplishment. Neither the
US nor Britain accomplished better in with such time restrictions and
they had an abundance of material, fuel, and pilots.
Heinkel just was not in favor and could not push his jet fighter
earlier or develop his 4-engined strategic bomber. Even in the end
Heinkel was struggling to amnufacture the first components of what
would have been the second German jet bomber- the He-343.
So what are you going on about?
The German pilot review of the He-162 as well as Capt. Eric Brown's
postwar is not that bad at all.
It is amazing that the Volksjaeger ever flew or managed any combat.
JG-1 BTW surrendered to the British 31 He-162s lined up neatly in two
rows. The British were impressed...
Rob
Gordon
The reason for the Me 262 over He 280 decision goes back to the fact
that the heads of the Luftwaffe had real heartburn with old man
Heinkel, and never approved any of his advanced fighters; the 162 was
shoved through by the Jagerstab. He 219 was arguably the best
nightfighter of the war - canceled. The He 100 was at least as good
as the early Bf 109s and development could have overcome its handicaps
- canceled. Heinkel was building bombers and no one had a problem
with that, until the He 177 and its ridiculous requirements gave his
whole organization a black eye; fighters were supposed to be the
territory of Willi and Kurt, and no one wanted to have to deal with
Heinkel and his new jet. Frankly, I am a little surprised that he
didn't die in an untimely accident.
Rob Arndt
Agreed, well-put Gordon.
Eyeball doesn't admit any of that, apparently, and offers no
historical German alternatives.
He's sold on the old myths concerning the He-162 as a "HJ piloted
deathtrap". Sorry, but the facts tell a different story.
No HJ Reichenbergs, no HJ Me-328s, no HJ Bv-40s, and no HJ He-162s
ever materialized or would have been authorized. Plenty of proposals,
but all rejected in the end.
Britain managed to get one jet design into the ETO by March 1945
( Meteors intercepting the V-1s over Britain in 1944 doesn't really
count as normal fighter duty) and yet the Germans under the worst
conditions possible in the fight introduced a jet fighter (Me-262), a
rocket fighter (Me-163), a jet bomber/recon aircraft (Ar-234), and
another jet fighter (He-162) from late 1944 until the end. Plus they
had the second rocket fighter Ba-349s on their launchers ready for
action when they were overrun.
The US sent 4 YP-80s to Europe to boost troop morale in 1945 and 2 of
them crashed (one in Italy and on in Britain). So much for that short-
lived fiasco...
Rob
Malcolm "Mal" Reynolds
news:1583007e-29dd-4ba2...@v13g2000pro.googlegroups.com:
By your own logic, the allies did not need jets as they had air
superiority. They beat the snot out of the panzerkorps with the sherman
and they beat the snot out of the luftwaffe with a variety of
fighters...and strategic bombers.
Eunometic
One also frequently gets hints of corruption from Germans writing
memoirs or interviewing those involved in the industry at the time of
the war that hint at corruption that favored particularly Junkers and
perhaps Messerschmitt. I think there is something to it.
Once the US entered the war the more analytical of German officers
estimated the US production potential and realized that they now had
far far greater needs of aircraft production and fighter pilot
training. Milch was one of them. The resources required would have
cut into other programs so much that the offensive in the east would
have been impacted so the Hitler or the powers that been just seem to
have stuck their head in the sand: hence when the USAAF built up its
numbers in 1943 it was too late. Powerful new engines that gave the
Germans an ability match the Mustang in speed and turn (Me 109K, Me
109G-10, Fw 190D-9) stated trickling in the beginning of the second
quarter 1944 but were not really in volume production till the end of
1944 so it can be argued that putting resources into getting the
piston engine fighters up to scratch earlier would have been more
important/
Heinkel Hirth despite not gaining a contract for its exceptional HeS
030 (also 109-006 and perhaps HeS 006) engine which used advanced
features such as a very efficient axial reaction as opposed to impulse
compressor and had variable inlet guide nozzle for the turbine and
which it is said had the lowest thrust to weight ratio, lowest frontal
area and best sfc of any engine till 1946 was forced to put its
resources into developing the RLM specified HeS 011 while BMW and
Junkers concentrated on first generation 'class 1' engines which was a
so called "class 2" engine with more thrust than the class 1 engines
(jumo 004, BMW003). In that regard there was a sort of attempt to
not duplicate effort in engines with the claim that Junkers was
further along in productionising their engine with realistic
quantities of refractory metals.
The engine they were forced to develop, the HeS 001, turned out to be
very important for the new generation of fighters that were to follow
the Me 262 so that the Luftwaffe had technical superiority over the
anticipated allied jet fighters but the imposition of a composite
'diagonal' or 'mixed flow' compressor (this is a centrifugal
compressor with its flow exit being axial into a stator) for the
first stage delayed the engine a . It was benching at 1150kg thrust
in early 1945 still short of the 1300kg spec for the HeS 001A and
hoped for 1500kg of the Hes 011B. Nevertheless the diagonal flow
compressor would have given the engine the best of both worlds in the
axial vs centrifugal compressor argument. Bad results showing
sooting caused by a turbine compressor mismatch. Fear of failure of
this engine seems to have encouraged the Jagerstab to provide some
kind of go ahead to BMW to produce the P.3306 which was a scaled up
BMW003. At the end of the war German metallurgists had developed new
alloys (eg at Haraeous Vacuum Scmeltze) that would have increased Jumo
004 engine life from 25 hours in the field to 150 hours in the field
or raised inlet temperatuers from 720C to about 800-860C but the true
situation of strategic materials was that variants of the P.3306 (and
I think HeS 011 as well) were to be given all steel (no chromium no
nickel) turbines that had only a 2 hour life, this was achieved by
lowering turbine inlet temperature to 650C through use of efficient
compressor design. In effect they were single at most two mission
disposable turbines.
The He 280 had better maneuverability than the Me 262. Likewise the
Arado 234 which had very good handling and turning circle (but a
terrible rear view) so it might have been a good idea to have it
around.
Eunometic
It wasn't so much hard to fly as hard to land though it had a
difficult spin recovery. The need to keep intake duct lengths short,
ground crew safety from the big flame of the early engines and to keep
the fire prone engine out of the fuselage while easing production
pushed for the dorsal engine mounting. The design actually evolved
out of the Heinkel P.1073 which was to provide Mach 0.95 performance
on two first generation class one BMW003 engines to avoid the risk of
relying on bigger engines. However Heinkel He P.1073 had a chin
mounted engine, staggered to conform with the area rule, as well as
providing even thrust.
http://www.luft46.com/heinkel/he1073ii.html
The problem with He 162 was that the principle thrust axis didn't
align with the drag axis hence when on approach increasing thrust to
reduce the glide slope caused the nose to pitch down. However outside
of the landing configuration the handling was Ok so long as the
aircraft didn't enter into a spin; in this case the misalignment also
made spin recovery less than easy.
The He 162 also had been given a lot of dihetheral to make it easy to
fly but this was excessive so it tended to pancake or yaw: this was
partially rectified by adding drooped tips since it was to late to
rebuild the spars which were already in production prior to the test
flight. fin area also needed to be increased.
The handling problems of the He 162 probably could have been overcome
but many of the decisions made to reduce risk actually increased it
and the start of production before the flight test program meant that
changes were hard to make.
There were other proposals for the emergency fighter from Blohm and
Voss, Focke-Wulf (who thought it a waste of time), Horton, Junkers
etc.
All of the Blohm and voss ones probably would have handled very well
and produced a better result since the wings all had slats and the
thrust and drag and pitch axes were aligned better due to the unusual
steel structure used by blohm & voss. The odd twin boom configuration
of the B&V p.210 http://www.luft46.com/bv/bvp210.html was actually
judged to have good handling and freedom from flutter (which had
stopped its selection) when investigated by NASA/NACA after the war.
In anywise a more conventional p.211.01 could have been used.
http://www.luft46.com/bv/bvp211i.html .
Probably a little more time was needed to investigate a little deeper
but that was time that was not available but some of the alternative
designs would have worked better.
It turns out that Messeschmitt had tested 10 foot long ducts by
placing them on Me 262 engines and found that they produced acceptable
pressure losses of only 4% so the fear of long ducts was misplaced, It
is likely that this was not well known amongst the risk touchy
decision makers who were trying to get an aircraft from start of
desgin to 4000 month production in 5 months.
eyeball
Would any arguments against German superiority in all phases of
manufacture and organization make any difference?
Dan
Not to aren't. She seems to think high tech automatically equaled
superiority never mind it also equated to more difficulty in production,
maintenance and recovery. If you point that out to her she always trots
out the old saw "but look at the big numbers."
Nazi Germany was a flawed system to begin with. Nothing anyone did
could overcome this. Todt never got production up to full swing, Speer
came close, but way too late and based on slave labour. Aren't loves to
pint out high production rates until near the end of the war. What she
loves to ignore is shortage of trained manufacturers and operators,
materials, fuel and the like. Aren't also never caught on to the
slaughter of unarmed civilians hardened the resolve of the Soviets, that
the Nazi ideology caused the expulsion, imprisonment and murder of
educated people was counterproductive. Most importantly she has not ever
admitted, and will never admit, there is nothing naturally superior to
Germans.
Every single SS, military, police, civil and political organization,
at every level, had a department specifically designated to root out and
eliminate "subhumans" and political opposition. In the army it was Amt
4. Add that to the colossal waste of assets employed in the slaughter of
12 million human beings and production of wasteful projects such as
atomics, V1, V2, V3...etc there was no way they could have lasted, let
alone won that war.
As an aside aren't also believes in flying saucers, secret Nazi
underground Antarctic u-boat bases, post war conspiracies and the like.
She never will be able to comprehend reality. It must be nice to live in
aren't world and not have to worry about the real world, but I could
never drink that much and I have never done illegal drugs.
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Rob Arndt
>
> - Show quoted text -
Well, the US is a much larger nation than Germany, had more resources
and manpower and the key- was never strategically bombed on the
continent for the entire war by either Germany or Japan; therefore,
what excuse does the US have for not leading in ALL areas of
scientific development?
The US WAS working on independent jet designs after that jump-start
with British help and yet ended-up with no operational jet a/c at all.
As for German manufacture and organization failures, there are many
mitigating factors:
- Hitler personally delaying advanced weapon systems for two years at
the start of the war and then screwing others up throughout the war.
Non-use of Rochling anti-concrete bunker buster and nerve gas. Not
producing sufficient numbers of excellent a/c like the He-219. Trying
to stop development of the assault rifle and the idiotic use of the
Me-262 as a bomber. Ordering massive offensive weapon systems that
were enormous wastes of time and manpower. No strategic bomber
development. Not enough U-boats. The Vergeltungswaffen programs. And
the list goes on...
- Luftwaffe non-interest in jet aircraft until it was too late (He-178
flew in 1939)
- Nazi political interference in war production and duplication of
effort through non-communication and service rivalry
- Hitler not putting the German economy on total war production
priority until 1943
- Hitler not fully utilizing women in the workforce
- Speer locked-out of SS seperate war research and weapon system
development
- the Allied startegic bombing campaign disrupting all war production
and shutting down all road networks for final assembly of
prefabricated weapon systems
Despite all of the above, German war production dramatically increased
in 1944 and the types of weapons being manufactured were not massed-
produced mediocre types but technologically complex wunderwaffen. The
SS had worked out prefabrication methods, were building massive bomb-
proof underground facilities, and also had a lot of component work
performed by cottage industries which were dispersed. However, masses
of missile systems, nerve gas production, and other advanced armor and
such were laying around Germany not utilized at the end of the war.
The USSR had moved its heavy industries back behind the Urals and
could mass produce plenty of a/c and armor with immunity. Britain
probably gets the most credit for its small industry producing as much
war material as possible, but still needed US support to win the war.
Rob
Rob Arndt
By war's end Heinkel also had many projekt aircraft including the move
to VTOL with the Wespe and Lerche II:
http://discaircraft.greyfalcon.us/HEINKEL%20WESPE.htm
Rob
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Nice picture, I drew that sort of stuff in middle school and mine had
just as much chance of success.
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Excuses, excuses, your side flopped big time well before 1 September
1939. What would you have done once they had slaughtered all the slave
labour? You couldn't have captured enough Soviet prisoners to keep
production going. Once Nazi hunting season opened 1 September 1939 the
only thing that could have saved Germany would be to stop before
attacking west. When you went into the West Nazi hunting season part 2
began which only could have been stopped had you withdrawn to
Germany's 1939 borders and disarmed. Then you lot got extremely stupid
and went into the East and Nazi hunting season part 3 began which
could only be ended in the destruction of the German state. Your side
became so despised the next Nazi hunting season, the international
migratory Nazi hunting season, is still going on.
There never was any you could have won that war even if your
syphilitic hero had postponed the start until 1948 as he originally
told Raeder.
Rob Arndt
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
Unfortunately history shows that both Churchill and Dowding thought
otherwise in 1940 concerning both the U-boat threat and the Luftwaffe
attacks on strictly military targets. As it turned out, Doenitz never
got the 300 U-boat strength needed to win in the N Atlantic and Hitler/
Goering made the unwise decision at the most critical time to switch
over to civilian bombing during the BoB.
Good thing for Britain or the war would have been won in 1940.
Rob
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Do you seriously think the war would have been "won" in 1940? You
guys never planned on stopping with just getting the U.K. home islands
out of the war. Even if they had rolled over and invited you Nazis to
occupy the war wouldn't have ended there. You guys planned all along
to attack the Soviet Union. Even without England you would have lost.
Now back to reality. FDR was already violating neutrality with lend-
lease and armed escorts. Do you seriously believe he would have NOT
aided England further? The much vaunted Luftwaffe never would have
obtained total air supremacy over the entire UK even if you hadn't
switched to bombing civil targets. They weren't doing all that great
to begin with once the RAF improved their tactics.
David E. Powell
That's really nuts. Almost seems the opposite of the Russian
progression in WW2 from "out of favor" people being totally exiled (if
they were lucky) from making decisions to increasing efforts to bring
them in as things got more scary, where Heinkel fell out of favor to
that degree even in really desperate times.
What I was thinking, mainly, was timing. If his plane could have been
ready sooner it could have had a nasty effect. Then again, even when
the Me-262 came out Hitler wanted it used as a bomber.
The 280, however, going to production in late 1942 or mid 1943 would
have been scary.
Rob Arndt
wrote:
Hint: Russia did not progress during WW2 but regressed more. Stalin
feared flying and distrusted all aviation designers and engineers as
corrupt and dangerous intellectuals. As a result, he routinely killed
them and that is why no Soviet rocket or jet aircraft or even awesome
conventional prop a/c designs. The USSR had that capability but Stalin
had his designers and engineers living in constant fear for their
lives. So they designed cheap, somewhat crude by Western standard
fighters and fighter-bombers which could be massed produced. Quantity
over quality was Stalin's Germany-defeating goal and it was enforced
rigidly.
All aviation designers and engineers were considered the opposite of
the Soviet Ideal Man- the perfect Communist. So they were distrusted
and were treated harshly for failure. Stalin purged them nearly as
often as his officers! No independent thinking, no pioneering, no
advanced projects acceptance.
Rob
LIBERATOR
wrote:
I wish I could help you, but I'm sure Robbie will and then I'll
remember. That's how reincarnation stuff works you know, you don't
remember til you see something that ticks the brain then the energy
presence of your soul.
hehe...
LIBERATOR
....and then they built their Sabre & Migs for the Korean war - which
the Jews created soley just to test their new toys, from cross-
referencing the ME262 and this Heinkel.
Again, the Korean war was created by Jewish world financiers that
controlled both The Warsaw Pact and NATO, just to test their new
developments from hijacked technology taken from Hitler and his
scientists. Vietnam the same, a war to test new toys, so they did the
same thing with Vietnam as they did with Korea - make the leaders fake
being at war, they are all fronts of world financiers, and could care
less if they downsize their native brothers by murdering them.
The Vietnam war and Korea, was about Jewish bankers testing new war
toys, and Vietnam probably had other objectives too, like getting rid
of African Americans that weren't educated. That's what the draft was
for.
LIBERATOR
> Not sure what I can add, but here goes:
>
> The reason for the Me 262 over He 280 decision goes back to the fact
> that the heads of the Luftwaffe had real heartburn with old man
> Heinkel, and never approved any of his advanced fighters;
That's bogus, he would have never been requested to participate in
advanced fighter design as shown on luft46.com. You're a victim of
postwar anti-Nazi propaganda. Don't feel bad even Robbie is sometimes.
If Hitler had butted heads with a designer, that designer wouldn't
have seen any more involvement with the Luftwaffe.
> the 162 was
> shoved through by the Jagerstab. He 219 was arguably the best
> nightfighter of the war - canceled. The He 100 was at least as good
> as the early Bf 109s and development could have overcome its handicaps
> - canceled. Heinkel was building bombers and no one had a problem
> with that, until the He 177 and its ridiculous requirements gave his
> whole organization a black eye; fighters were supposed to be the
> territory of Willi and Kurt, and no one wanted to have to deal with
> Heinkel and his new jet. Frankly, I am a little surprised that he
> didn't die in an untimely accident.
You're believing this soap opera stuff? The same people that wrote
this write the scripts for "Days Of Our Lives" on TV today.
LIBERATOR
> On Sep 21, 4:42 pm, Gordon <Gor...@oldboldpilots.org> wrote:
>
> > Not sure what I can add, but here goes:
>
> > The reason for the Me 262 over He 280 decision goes back to the fact
> > that the heads of the Luftwaffe had real heartburn with old man
> > Heinkel, and never approved any of his advanced fighters; the 162 was
> > shoved through by the Jagerstab. He 219 was arguably the best
> > nightfighter of the war - canceled. The He 100 was at least as good
> > as the early Bf 109s and development could have overcome its handicaps
> > - canceled. Heinkel was building bombers and no one had a problem
> > with that, until the He 177 and its ridiculous requirements gave his
> > whole organization a black eye; fighters were supposed to be the
> > territory of Willi and Kurt, and no one wanted to have to deal with
> > Heinkel and his new jet. Frankly, I am a little surprised that he
> > didn't die in an untimely accident.
>
> One also frequently gets hints of corruption from Germans writing
> memoirs or interviewing those involved in the industry at the time of
> the war that hint at corruption that favored particularly Junkers and
> perhaps Messerschmitt. I think there is something to it.
There was nepotism by Goering, but it's not official nepotism because
he wasnt' related to those he favored. Also, those he favored usually
came out ahead in abilities compared to the others. Even those that
weren't excelled and were surpassed, were still allowed to submit
proposals for designs, by Uncle Herman.
> Once the US entered the war the more analytical of German officers
> estimated the US production potential and realized that they now had
> far far greater needs of aircraft production and fighter pilot
> training. Milch was one of them. The resources required would have
> cut into other programs so much that the offensive in the east would
> have been impacted so the Hitler or the powers that been just seem to
> have stuck their head in the sand: hence when the USAAF built up its
> numbers in 1943 it was too late. Powerful new engines that gave the
> Germans an ability match the Mustang in speed and turn (Me 109K, Me
> 109G-10, Fw 190D-9) stated trickling in the beginning of the second
> quarter 1944 but were not really in volume production till the end of
> 1944 so it can be argued that putting resources into getting the
> piston engine fighters up to scratch earlier would have been more
> important/
Hmmm.
> Heinkel Hirth despite not gaining a contract for its exceptional HeS
> 030 (also 109-006 and perhaps HeS 006) engine which used advanced
> features such as a very efficient axial reaction as opposed to impulse
> compressor and had variable inlet guide nozzle for the turbine and
> which it is said had the lowest thrust to weight ratio, lowest frontal
> area and best sfc of any engine till 1946 was forced to put its
> resources into developing the RLM specified HeS 011 while BMW and
> Junkers concentrated on first generation 'class 1' engines which was a
> so called "class 2" engine with more thrust than the class 1 engines
> (jumo 004, BMW003). In that regard there was a sort of attempt to
> not duplicate effort in engines with the claim that Junkers was
> further along in productionising their engine with realistic
> quantities of refractory metals.
Hmm...
> The engine they were forced to develop, the HeS 001, turned out to be
> very important for the new generation of fighters that were to follow
> the Me 262 so that the Luftwaffe had technical superiority over the
> anticipated allied jet fighters but the imposition of a composite
> 'diagonal' or 'mixed flow' compressor (this is a centrifugal
> compressor with its flow exit being axial into a stator) for the
> first stage delayed the engine a . It was benching at 1150kg thrust
> in early 1945 still short of the 1300kg spec for the HeS 001A and
> hoped for 1500kg of the Hes 011B. Nevertheless the diagonal flow
> compressor would have given the engine the best of both worlds in the
> axial vs centrifugal compressor argument. Bad results showing
> sooting caused by a turbine compressor mismatch. Fear of failure of
> this engine seems to have encouraged the Jagerstab to provide some
> kind of go ahead to BMW to produce the P.3306 which was a scaled up
> BMW003. At the end of the war German metallurgists had developed new
> alloys (eg at Haraeous Vacuum Scmeltze) that would have increased Jumo
> 004 engine life from 25 hours in the field to 150 hours in the field
> or raised inlet temperatuers from 720C to about 800-860C but the true
> situation of strategic materials was that variants of the P.3306 (and
> I think HeS 011 as well) were to be given all steel (no chromium no
> nickel) turbines that had only a 2 hour life, this was achieved by
> lowering turbine inlet temperature to 650C through use of efficient
> compressor design. In effect they were single at most two mission
> disposable turbines.
You're doing some fine data research... You ought to be on Robbies
team...
> The He 280 had better maneuverability than the Me 262. Likewise the
> Arado 234 which had very good handling and turning circle (but a
> terrible rear view) so it might have been a good idea to have it
> around.
It might have been production facilities and required technology
differing between the two designs that made the ME262 win out. I don't
know this it's just a hunch.
LIBERATOR
Only if you can back them. So by all means provide and substantiate.
LIBERATOR
BLAH BLAH BLAH back to the retarded chicken coop with you Dannyboy..
LIBERATOR
What you say is right Robbie, USA and Britain gave USSR materials,
money, and personnel to sustain their war effort.
Eunometic
> On Sep 21, 3:31 am, Eunometic <eunome...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sep 21, 4:42 pm, Gordon <Gor...@oldboldpilots.org> wrote:
>
> > > Not sure what I can add, but here goes:
>
> > > The reason for the Me 262 over He 280 decision goes back to the fact
> > > that the heads of the Luftwaffe had real heartburn with old man
> > > Heinkel, and never approved any of his advanced fighters; the 162 was
> > > shoved through by the Jagerstab. He 219 was arguably the best
> > > nightfighter of the war - canceled. The He 100 was at least as good
> > > as the early Bf 109s and development could have overcome its handicaps
> > > - canceled. Heinkel was building bombers and no one had a problem
> > > with that, until the He 177 and its ridiculous requirements gave his
> > > whole organization a black eye; fighters were supposed to be the
> > > territory of Willi and Kurt, and no one wanted to have to deal with
> > > Heinkel and his new jet. Frankly, I am a little surprised that he
> > > didn't die in an untimely accident.
>
> > One also frequently gets hints of corruption from Germans writing
> > memoirs or interviewing those involved in the industry at the time of
> > the war that hint at corruption that favored particularly Junkers and
> > perhaps Messerschmitt. I think there is something to it.
>
> There was nepotism by Goering, but it's not official nepotism because
> came out ahead in abilities compared to the others. Even those that
> weren't excelled and were surpassed, were still allowed to submit
> proposals for designs, by Uncle Herman.
>
> > Once the US entered the war the more analytical of German officers
> > estimated the US production potential and realized that they now had
> > far far greater needs of aircraft production and fighter pilot
> > training. Milch was one of them. The resources required would have
> > cut into other programs so much that the offensive in the east would
> > have been impacted so the Hitler or the powers that been just seem to
> > have stuck their head in the sand: hence when the USAAF built up its
> > numbers in 1943 it was too late. Powerful new engines that gave the
> > Germans an ability match the Mustang in speed and turn (Me 109K, Me
> > 109G-10, Fw 190D-9) stated trickling in the beginning of the second
> > quarter 1944 but were not really in volume production till the end of
> > 1944 so it can be argued that putting resources into getting the
> > piston engine fighters up to scratch earlier would have been more
>
> Hmmm.
War is a series of might have beens. The WW2 Germans faced difficult
choices, unrelenting pressure and limited resources.
>
> > Heinkel Hirth despite not gaining a contract for its exceptional HeS
> > 030 (also 109-006 and perhaps HeS 006) engine which used advanced
> > features such as a very efficient axial reaction as opposed to impulse
> > compressor and had variable inlet guide nozzle for the turbine and
> > which it is said had the lowest thrust to weight ratio, lowest frontal
> > area and best sfc of any engine till 1946 was forced to put its
> > resources into developing the RLM specified HeS 011 while BMW and
> > Junkers concentrated on first generation 'class 1' engines which was a
> > so called "class 2" engine with more thrust than the class 1 engines
> > (Jumo 004, BMW 003). In that regard there was a sort of attempt to
> > not duplicate effort in engines with the claim that Junkers was
> > further along in productionising their engine with realistic
> > quantities of refractory metals.
>
> Hmm...
There was a desire to not duplicate efforts hence Heinkel was only
awarded
a contract for a second generation engine: the HeS 011 and could
not participate in the first generation of engines, it is odd however
that
despite Heinkels private and pioneering efforts they did not lead to
a
production engine.
> > The engine they were forced to develop, the HeS 011, turned out to be
I wish Robbie well, maybe he'll find love,
1 If I were on his 'team' I think he would he would get me killed, so
no thanks.
2 He has expressed, during one of his 'fare ups' gladness in the
destruction of
30 million Soviet citizens by German forces. Apart from finding this
vulgar and
disturbing (where does this 'hate' come from, me thinks he is too
easily provoked)
so it would be unhealthy for me. I also think that the communist
commissars
have scapegoated Nazis/Germans for many millions of deaths that
they themselves
"constructed" either prior to opperation Barbarossa or by using
German troops
as unwitting executioners.
>
> > The He 280 had better maneuverability than the Me 262. Likewise the
> > Arado 234 which had very good handling and turning circle (but a
> > terrible rear view) so it might have been a good idea to have it
> > around.
>
> It might have been production facilities and required technology
> differing between the two designs that made the ME262 win out. I don't
> know this it's just a hunch.
Heinkel had very good technology. They invented the explosive rivet
for the He 100.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUEbePVyS3c
Yes there may have been resource issues: Heinkel was giving up He 111
production
at Rostok and told to switch to and tool up for Me 210 production.
When that program met with
delays due to serious handling problems they were then was forced to
go to Ju 88
production. This made them very inefficient and forced them to use
labor from
the nearby concentration camp.
fredd...@gmail.com
walt...@gmail.com
Daryl
> I see the usual group still beating this poor old dead horse.
>
zero. Got a few miles on this one. ;)
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David E. Powell
> On Sep 21, 9:47 pm, Rob Arndt <teuton...@aol.com> wrote:
> > On Sep 21, 8:01 pm, "David E. Powell" <David_Powell3...@msn.com>
> > wrote:
> What you say is right Robbie, USA and Britain gave USSR materials,
> money, and personnel to sustain their war effort.
R.I.P.