Mid-air collisions, how often in WWII?
Dermott Bolger
Allied daylight raids.
Perhaps Art (Mr. Kramer?) might help with this.
I believe the Luftwaffe flew head-on attacks into formations of bombers.
At the same time, the USAF fighters were providing cover.
'Must have been a tad crowded.
How often did mid-airs occur?
Were the more fratricidal (bomber-bomber) or "suicidal" (fighter-bomber)
collisions?
Regards,
Dermott
lrrcp
where the oxy system went out on a plane and it struck another.
there were even cases where the aircraft struck eachother on the ground
prior to take off.
"Dermott Bolger" <dermott...@nospam.ireland.com> wrote in message
news:39194FEB...@nospam.ireland.com...
ArtKramr
>From: Dermott Bolger dermott...@nospam.ireland.com
>Date: 5/10/00 5:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <39194FEB...@nospam.ireland.com>
>
>I was thinking the other evening about the skies of Europe during the
>Allied daylight raids.
>
>Perhaps Art (Mr. Kramer?) might help with this.
>I believe the Luftwaffe flew head-on attacks into formations of bombers.
>
>At the same time, the USAF fighters were providing cover.
>
>'Must have been a tad crowded.
>
>How often did mid-airs occur?
>Were the more fratricidal (bomber-bomber) or "suicidal" (fighter-bomber)
>collisions?
>
>Regards,
>
>Dermott
>
>
>
only one I witnessed happened in our own traffic pattern in Pontoise France.
Two B-26's collided killing all 12 men involved.
F/O Arthur Kramer
344th Bomb Group, 9th Air Force
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Maury Markowitz
> I believe the Luftwaffe flew head-on attacks into formations of bombers.
I remember an interview with one such pilot, of a 109 IIRC. He was firing
into the cockpit and got target stare, and didn't pull off in time. He
collided, and after realizing this he jumped and made it (well, obviously).
He summed it up as "I said to myself, 'well that was dumb, I won't do that
again'".
Maury
Pierre-Henri Baras
Dermott Bolger <dermott...@nospam.ireland.com> a écrit dans le message :
39194FEB...@nospam.ireland.com...
> I was thinking the other evening about the skies of Europe during the
> Allied daylight raids.
>
> Perhaps Art (Mr. Kramer?) might help with this.
>
>
> 'Must have been a tad crowded.
>
> How often did mid-airs occur?
> Were the more fratricidal (bomber-bomber) or "suicidal"
The Soviets had a name for the act of throwing their plane on incoming
fighters and bombers; forgot it! I think it was a common procedure, very
often killing the pilot, which became a Hero of the Rodina!
Pierre-Henri
Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de
Taran. Basically manned collision. Idea was to cut rudder or level control
by rotor (heh, my avia English dictionary is unreachable now). If performed
skillfully you can even get away with intact A/C though rare. Anyway if it
is intended and attacking pilot and A/C where in good shape - than there
were hell a lot of time to either jump or regain control. BTW I personally
new SUAF gen. who did manned tarans twice and were manage to get fighter
back on A/F both times AFAIK. Though he got downed once in a pretty stupid
manner. Talk about skills.
What you are talking about (mortal tarans) were performed mostly by injured
pilots on beaten A/Cs in order to help remaining friends and get at least one
more enemy in company on a final trip. Then chances to survive were indeed
grim. But then the survival is not an aim. Sometimes ground tarans were done
by downed bomber (IL4,Pe2) or attack plane (Il2) commanders/pilots as well.
That was simply clear death.
--
Andrey Nikolaev Ulm university,
Department of Biophysics. Germany.
Email: Andrey.Nikolaev@!get-lost-spammer!.uni-ulm.de
Substitute physik instead of !*! .
Gordon
>'Must have been a tad crowded.
>
>How often did mid-airs occur?
>collisions?
>
>
Two incidents that come to mind are the infamous "Day it Rained Thunderbolts"
when a squadron of P-47s got disoriented in heavy cloud over Southern England
and the victory of German Ace Heinz Knoke ("I Flew For The Fuhrer"), when his
attack killed the pilots of a B-24 which then collided with two other machines,
causing the loss of all three.
Jussi Saari
>
> The Soviets had a name for the act of throwing their plane
> on incoming fighters and bombers; forgot it! I think it was
> a common procedure, very often killing the pilot, which
> became a Hero of the Rodina!
> Pierre-Henri
Taran was the name. The idea was to hit a weak part of the
enemy aircraft (typically rudder or cockpit) with tha rammer's
belly, or to chew the same places with the propeller. It was
safer than it sounds, the pilots usually survived and very
often even their aircraft did. IIRC the record was 4 survived
Taran victories for one pilot... Head-on ramming was
understandably somewhat less survivable, though.
Jussi
Gordon
>into the cockpit and got target stare, and didn't pull off in time. He
>collided, and after realizing this he jumped and made it (well, obviously).
>He summed it up as "I said to myself, 'well that was dumb, I won't do that
>again'".
Horst Petschler by any chance..? He told me that he didn't even bother to
claim a victory because his wing had sheared off and he bailed out and weeks
later he recieved official confirmation for the two victories on that flight
because the wing of his 109 had been recovered, camera intact, and the review
of the film resulted in his being given credit for the B-17 and the P-51 that
he exploded on that flight.
Gordon
>pilots on beaten A/Cs in order to help remaining friends and get at least one
>
>more enemy in company on a final trip.
A German pilot named Ehrler was very, very successful and a popular leader
until he had the misfortune to be in the chain of command on the day that the
Tirpitz was sunk while his unit was supposed to be protecting it. He was
subsequently courts-martialed and sentenced to death, disgraced and demoted
from his position of command. "Needs of the Army" kept his death sentence from
being carried out -- he was assigned to a Me-262 squadron in the last months
and after a furious fight with American bombers, he called out to his friends
on the radio, "I'll see you in Valhalla!" and deliberately rammed a bomber,
with a shattering explosion that obliterated both warplanes. "Tarans" were
rare on the German side, but they definitely occurred.
Gordon
Gordon
>safer than it sounds, the pilots usually survived and very
>often even their aircraft did. IIRC the record was 4 survived
>Taran victories for one pilot... Head-on ramming was
>understandably somewhat less survivable, though.
Oskar Boesch, today a successful airshow performer in his glider, survived
service in a unit that suffered 350% casualties -- he flew FW-190s in the
Sturmgruppe of JG 3 Udet. His last "victory" occurred over Berlin on the day
it fell to the Soviets. Over the fires and artillery duels taking place in
that dying city, Boesch spotted a Yak9 approaching and turned into him -- the
two pilots jousted like knights of old and neither flinched; right up to the
last second, neither turned away. Some minutes later, Oskar came to on the
ground, sitting among the widely scattered wreckage of the two aircraft, to be
captured by Russian soldiers a short time later.
Harry Andreas
<dermott...@nospam.ireland.com> wrote:
> I was thinking the other evening about the skies of Europe during the
> Allied daylight raids.
>
> Perhaps Art (Mr. Kramer?) might help with this.
> I believe the Luftwaffe flew head-on attacks into formations of bombers.
>
> At the same time, the USAF fighters were providing cover.
>
> 'Must have been a tad crowded.
>
> How often did mid-airs occur?
Douglas Bader, who I think started these types of attacks during the BoB,
described several such collisions in one of his books.
He also described the risks involved [to the Air Ministry among others].
--
Harry Andreas
the engineering raconteur
replace baloney with computer to reply
Maury Markowitz
> Horst Petschler by any chance..?
Perhaps, but I can't say for sure.
> of the film resulted in his being given credit for the B-17 and the P-51
> that he exploded on that flight.
Wow!
Maury
bevnsag
I've seen references to mid-airs being "common" among bomber groups as
they were forming up for big formations in less than perfect weather,
but no hard numbers. Also I got the impression that training accidents,
including mid-airs and nasty taxi-ing accidents chewed up nearly as many
machines and crews as combat?
rkhorky
formations, especially during form-up. The large number of
aircraft in the vicinity of the 'buncher beacons' was an
invitation to trouble. there is a particularly dramatic
(and horrifying) photograph of a B-17 collision in fog that
appears in a lot of books--I think Jablonski's FLYING
FORTRESS reproduces it, among others.
* Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is Beautiful
Gordon
>
> Perhaps, but I can't say for sure.
>
>> of the film resulted in his being given credit for the B-17 and the P-51
>> that he exploded on that flight.
>
> Wow!
The film still exists! It has been shown frequently on "Wings" and "Firepower"
among other shows -- Horst was aware that a formation of 8 Mustangs were diving
on him from above but he felt he could *probably* score against the B-17 first
so he disregarded them temporarily. He hit the B-17 square in the cockpit and
both inboard engines (guncam shows all the horrible details) at which time he
had no choice but to decide what to do about the P-51s that would kill him
about 10 seconds later. He wanted to dive away but knew the Mustangs would
never let him escape and his options were very limited so he did what fighter
pilots do -- he yanked back and turned into his pursuers with all guns blazing
(nice Gotterdammerung touch to all this, eh?) and the video clearly shows the
result -- his cannons score a hit directly on the prop spinner of the lead
P-51, and either 20mm or additional 30mm strikes hit the floor of the cockpit
and the oil cooler/radiator. As Horst passed the diving P-51, he looked over
his shoulder and the P-51 was gone - there was nothing in the sky where it had
been except a large black cloud and some minor falling debris. With a small
amount of grim satisfaction, he set about the task of escaping the remaining 7
Mustangs with the aforementioned poor results. A very lucky man to have
survived that day and others like it.
Gordon
anlushac11
them being first used by Russians flying Rata's in Spain.
In article <andreas-1005...@x-147-16-144-157.rsc.raytheon.com>,
and...@baloney.org says...
Cheng Tseng
>Two incidents that come to mind are the infamous "Day it Rained Thunderbolts"
>when a squadron of P-47s got disoriented in heavy cloud over Southern England
Ouch!
When was this?
C.T.
KDBANGLIA
bomber falling almost sycamore seed-like, minus tail and wing sections external
to the engines near to a built up area, crashing in a ball of flame.
The (hurricane ?) pilot was later interviewed and he said that he'd run out of
ammunition, so just went for the tail to chop it off.
I've got this on video somewhere but I think it was about the Battle of
Britain.
Another collision, the results of which are shown in one of The Lancaster at
War series of books is of a couple of fully bomb laden Lanc's colliding mid air
while climbing to gain altitude over the airfield and the devastation escalated
as parts of the wreckage dropped earthward onto other aircraft and hangars.
Some lucky sod (for having this series of books) who has a copy of this heavy
tome can give all the details as I haven't seen this since library days.
Richard.
Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de
> Gordon
Not exactly rare. There was "sentenced" Jagger squads. Pilots there were
_obliged_ to shut down at least one bomber at one flight. In addition they
used specially modified FWs-190 with strengthened structure to sustain
tarans. Not kamikadze but something not that far.
lrrcp
8th airforce 78th FS.
at 28,000 ft just before German fighters attacked the bomber stream Lt Col
Melvin McNickles aircraft suddenly fell of of formation, collided with his
wingman and plunged to earth. His Oxy system had failed and he passed out,
he servived the crash but his wingman was killed when he bailed.
Aguest 12, 1943.
future 20-kill ace Bud Maharin was almost killed horse playing with a B-24,
he was doing aerobatics when he moved under the bomber, he got to close
though and the propwash sucked his P-47 in under the wing, the bombers Prop
tore the tail off the P-47, Maharin bailed out at 400 ft and the bomber went
on to crash land in a emergency landing.
"Dermott Bolger" <dermott...@nospam.ireland.com> wrote in message
news:39194FEB...@nospam.ireland.com...
> I was thinking the other evening about the skies of Europe during the
> Allied daylight raids.
>
> Perhaps Art (Mr. Kramer?) might help with this.
> I believe the Luftwaffe flew head-on attacks into formations of bombers.
>
> At the same time, the USAF fighters were providing cover.
>
> 'Must have been a tad crowded.
>
> How often did mid-airs occur?
> Were the more fratricidal (bomber-bomber) or "suicidal" (fighter-bomber)
> collisions?
>
> Regards,
>
> Dermott
>
Gordon
> Not exactly rare. There was "sentenced" Jagger squads. Pilots there were
>_obliged_ to shut down at least one bomber at one flight. In addition they
>used specially modified FWs-190 with strengthened structure to sustain
>tarans. Not kamikadze but something not that far. <
Could you please tell me which squadrons these are? I was aware of the
volunteer "Sturmgruppen" where pilots signed a (voluntary) "contract" stating
they would bring down a bomber, basically using any mains they could, which
included ramming, but I have never heard of these "sentenced" Jager squads
before. I would appreciate any additional information you could share about
them.
v/r
Gordon
Harry Andreas
anlus...@home.com (anlushac11) wrote:
> Tarans may have been started by Bader(but I dont think so). I seem to recall
> them being first used by Russians flying Rata's in Spain.
> >Douglas Bader, who I think started these types of attacks during the BoB,
> >described several such collisions in one of his books.
> >He also described the risks involved [to the Air Ministry among others].
Bader relates how, while flying Hurricanes early on in the BoB, he was so
blinded by fury [my term] at the sight of German bombers over his country,
that he semi-suicidally dove his squadron head on into the bomber
formation.
The results were so spectacular, with extreme evasive manuevers by the
bombers, that the formations were ruined as well as the bombing accuracy,
and the broken formations became easy pickings for the fighters.
He started using this tactic purposefully thereafter, to the point where
his squadron was nicknamed the "Disintegration Squadron".
He briefed the Air Ministry on this spur-of-the-moment tactic along with
the attendant dangers of mid-air collision while engaged in it.
Gordon
>>Two incidents that come to mind are the infamous "Day it Rained
>Thunderbolts"
>>when a squadron of P-47s got disoriented in heavy cloud over Southern
>England
>
>Ouch!
>
>When was this?
CT, I wish I could help, but everything I own is packed into boxes, ready for
the movers When I get unpacked, 5 weeks and 1,500 miles from here, I can
answer you! :)
Maury Markowitz
> The film still exists! It has been shown frequently on "Wings" and
> "Firepower" among other shows
Hmmm, anyone got a MPG?
> Mustangs with the aforementioned poor results. A very lucky man to have
> survived that day and others like it.
Wait, he doesn't seem to collide with anyone here... is that a difference
case?
Maury
Stephen Harding
> CT, I wish I could help, but everything I own is packed into boxes, ready for
> the movers When I get unpacked, 5 weeks and 1,500 miles from here, I can
> answer you! :)
Geeez Gordo, booked yourself a slow boat to China?!
I guess China would be a bit farther than 1,500 miles, but you are traveling
by bicycle, or you *really* pack ahead!
SMH
Gordon
>
>Geeez Gordo, booked yourself a slow boat to China?!
>
>I guess China would be a bit farther than 1,500 miles, but you are traveling
>by bicycle, or you *really* pack ahead!
45 50# boxes of books, 21 boxes/tubs of toys, and two houses of furniture, all
packed by yours truly between back spasms :P To save a bit of cash, I am
doing all the packing myself; the movers come in a few days and head off to
Texas when I am meeting them, but the new house wont be ready for a few weeks.
Mayday, mayday!
Gordon
Gordon
>> survived that day and others like it.
>
> Wait, he doesn't seem to collide with anyone here... is that a difference
>case?
No, I think he lost his wing in a collision with another aircraft during that
pursuit. I'll call and ask if you wish..? (with everything packed I cant
check notes)
>> The film still exists! It has been shown frequently on "Wings" and
>> "Firepower" among other shows
>
> Hmmm, anyone got a MPG?
I have the tape but no video capture equipment :\
Maury Markowitz
> No, I think he lost his wing in a collision with another aircraft during
> that pursuit.
Ahhh, no, that would be a different case then. The guy I remember crashed
right into the bomber he was shooting at.
> I have the tape but no video capture equipment :\
Durn!
Maury
KDBANGLIA
In the UK we had a programme about what was summised as a mid-air accident
between two B-17s passing through cloud and after a successful mission.
The programme series was called Time Team and is about archaeology made
interesting for the masses.
Richard.
Mike Tighe
>There's a famous piece of film taken from the ground of a twin engined German
>bomber falling almost sycamore seed-like, minus tail and wing sections external
>to the engines near to a built up area, crashing in a ball of flame.
>
>The (hurricane ?) pilot was later interviewed and he said that he'd run out of
>ammunition, so just went for the tail to chop it off.
>
>I've got this on video somewhere but I think it was about the Battle of
>Britain.
<snip>
Around midday on September 15 1940 - Sgt Ray Holmes of 504 Sqn (in
Hurricane P2725) ran out of ammunition while attacking a Do17 (w/nr
2361) piloted by Oberleutnant Robert Zehbe of KG76, and proceeded to
ram, taking off the Dornier's tail.
Inadvertently, Sgt Holmes became responsible for the 'bombing' of
Buckingham Palace - as the bomber broke up, short of its intended
target (the railway complex north of Clapham Junction) some of it's
(unfused) load was thrown clear and one 50kg bomb landed on the Palace
itself, coming to rest in the bathroom of one of the apartments.
The Dornier, minus tail and outer wings, crashed among the kiosks on
the forecourt of Victoria Station, at the north eastern corner, by
Wilton Road. (When I was younger, some of the scars were still
visible on the wall, but the building was refurbished and cleaned in
the mid-'sevenites, so I think they were polished off.)
The Hurricane crashed at the junction of Buckingham Palace Road and
Ebury Bridge Road (outside Victoria Coach Station). A year of so
back, a London newspaper carried a story that, back in 1940, the
remains of the Hurricane had been buried in the crater, in an effort
to re-open the road as quickly as possible, and that the wreckage was
still there. Apparently, someone was asking Westminster City Council
for permission to dig (they were told to go away.... It's a pity they
didn't have a cable TV or telecoms franchise!).
Ray Holmes bailed out late, and landed on the roof of a mansion block
nearby - only to fall off! But his deflated chute caught on an
external pipe and broke his fall just short of the ground. He
survived his injuries to fly again (fighters and photo reconnaissance)
and write the memoirs of his career (Sky Spy, published in 1989).
Robert Zehbe was less lucky. From a higher altitude, his parachute
drifted south of the river and he snagged some cables over Harleyford
Road, Kennington, outside the Oval tube station. A mob of civilians
gathered, pulled him down and set upon him, some with an assortment of
sharp or heavy household implements. He was rescued by an Army
patrol, but died of injuries received...
Only two of the crew of five from the Dornier survived.
--
Mike Tighe
Speaking from the bottom left
hand corner of the big picture.
Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de
> v/r
> Gordon
Hmm, would you in a healthy mind to sign such paper? MAy easily happen that
you simply have no opportunity to perform even ramming. So what to do then?
IMHO JG 17,18 but most probably I don't remeber correctly.
Sorry, now I'll request for help.
Vladimir, Ivan, u vas yest' kniga, izdana bila v rajone 98 "Istrebiteli IIj
mirovoj" pomojemu, ili cheg-to v etom rode. V serii bili tak zhe
razvedchiki, marshali i dr. Tam yest' neskolko abzacev o PVO Reicha v
44-45 i o shtrafnih istrebitelnih gruppah, gde piloti bili objazani sbivat'
po bombardirovschiku za raz. Kakie nomera bili u etih grupp? Mne chego-to
kazhetsa, chto JG 17,18 , no mozhet ya oshibajus.
Gordon
>> volunteer "Sturmgruppen" where pilots signed a (voluntary) "contract"
>stating
>> they would bring down a bomber, basically using any mains they could, which
>> included ramming, but I have never heard of these "sentenced" Jager squads
>> before. I would appreciate any additional information you could share
>about
>> them.
>
>> v/r
>> Gordon
>
> Hmm, would you in a healthy mind to sign such paper?<
As healthy as any mind could be in the last years of the war, when his country
was being flattened, burned, and overrun from all sides. Its difficult to
imagine what a 'healthy mind' would be thinking in such circumstances but many
of the diaries from those days make it clear that even the average Germans felt
that the world was coming to an end. I have heard the same statement from
several that they felt that every last German would be lined up and shot once
the war ended. Given that possibility, which option would a young,
ill-trained, vastly outnumbered Luftwaffe fighter pilot take? Fight to the end
and sacrifice himself against the anvil of the bomber streams or raise his
hands and walk meekly into the hands of the people that he was certain was
going to shoot him in the back of the head? I, thankfully, never had to face
such a choice but I know which one I'd take.
> MAy easily happen that
>you simply have no opportunity to perform even ramming.<
Probably true. By 44 when the tactic was first suggested on the German side by
Hajo Herrmann, the escort fighters were making successful attacks against the
bombers a costly, bloody nightmare for the defending fighters. American war
production of warplanes and fighting airmen were literally overwhelming for
the few scattered Luftwaffe pilots that made the suicidal decision to go down
fighting, but their choices were rather limited.
> So what to do then?
> IMHO JG 17,18 but most probably I don't remeber correctly.<
I am very interested in what you can find! I can't locate any details on
either of these units.
v/r
Gordon
Cub driver
>the war ended. Given that possibility, which option would a young,
>ill-trained, vastly outnumbered Luftwaffe fighter pilot take? Fight to the end
>and sacrifice himself against the anvil of the bomber streams or raise his
>hands and walk meekly into the hands of the people that he was certain was
>going to shoot him in the back of the head? I, thankfully, never had to face
>such a choice but I know which one I'd take.
Given the urgency with which German soldiers and civilians rushed to
surrender to the Americans rather than stay put and be captured by the
Russians, I doubt that many German pilots believed that.
all the best - Dan
see Nothing New About Death at http://www.danford.net
and the Annals of Military Aviation forum at http://www.delphi.com/annals
Gordon
18 - the closest that I can find are JG 107 and 108, both of which were
training squadrons.
In response to my request for information concerning "sentenced Jager"
squadrons on several Luftwaffe discussion boards, I have found that no one
among the dozens of professional researchers has ever heard of such a unit.
All of the responses so far indicate that it was never even considered.
v/r
Gordon
Gordon
> My info comes from one source. It is book which was printed in CIS around
>97. May be the source is faulty. May be.
>
> The info contained there (from what I remember FWIR) was following:
>
> There were JG groups tasked to intercept bombers. Inbetween those groups
>there were two (FWIR again) equipped with special modification of FW 190
>which were strengthened to withstand ramming. According to source pilots
>of in mentioned JGs were _obliged_ to sign paper with declaration that they
>are going to down at least one A/C in each flight by all means possible
>including ramming. Yet again pilots were put in those JGs for "misbehave",
>thus I called them "sentenced".
[snippo]
> Well I'd propose the following approach to that_book_independent
>verification of this info. Try to find out about that modified FWs, did
>such design exist? If no, well the chances grow that inf is faulty, if yes,
>try to find out where those A/C were assigned. It ought to be very specific
>modification of FWs as it certainly increases weight of A/C and makes it
>less capable against light targets. So by finding out where these A/Cs were
>used you will have some clues about actions of which JGs became ground for
>this info (gossip, whatever). <
Such FW-190s were built and assigned to the Sturmgruppen - heavily armored and
directly tasked to attack bombers only. JG 3 "Udet" was one such group
although there were several others. Working in concert with a "high cover"
unit, the Sturmgruppe ignored Allied fighters and continued straight after the
bombers, while the high cover squadrons (usually in far lighter Bf-109G-6 and
G-10 fighters, did their best to buy the Sturmbocks time to attack. These
heavily armored FW-190s were not flown by misbehaving or sentenced pilots, as
their missions required absolutely iron nerves and a nearly complete disregard
for their own safety -- the Sturmgruppe of JG 3 suffered 350% losses in combat
in only a few months of service. It had nothing to do with their tactics,
their behavior, or anything of the sort - they were simply outnumbered hundreds
to one and flying in a fighter that was too heavy to engage other fighters. No
one in the Sturmgruppe was obliged, ordered, or coerced to sign the declaration
that included ramming, however a fair portion of the pilots volunteered and
signed it. I know two pilots personally that flew in that unit and neither
signed it and there was no fallout for their decision.
v/r
Gordon
Gordon
> Well than it never hurts to think in advance about this matter. I hope you
>will have to make this kind of choice one day, yankee.
>
>Andrey
Both of my parents are Russian, Andrey. Insulting me and stating that you hope
I have to face a suicidal choice one day makes me wonder if you always respond
to being corrected by wishing the other person death. The one time in twelve
years of service against the Soviets that I was faced with a situation that was
mortal, I told my pilots to aim for the bridge of the Novorosiisk instead of
their suggestion, landing our crippled helicopter on their deck. We struggled
back to our frigate with so much damage that it didn't fly again for the rest
of the cruise, but I was serious about what I felt our choice should be --
giving the Soviets a reasonably intact front line ASW helo would have given
them the edge over everyone else in my career field, not to mention that they
traditionally didn't repatriate enlisted airmen that they captured so the
choice was not that difficult. Luckily for all concerned, we didn't have to
carry that "what if" any further.
I used to enjoy flying against the Soviets; they were very professional as
adversaries, but with a sense of humor in our encounters -- traits that this
exchange with you suggests that you lack. The insult in this post was uncalled
for - I didn't say, "Andrey, you don't know what the hell you are talking about
- think about what would happen the MOMENT a "sentenced pilot" had the
opportunity to break off and fly toward the nearest Allied base and you'll see
how dumb the whole premise is", but I didn't; in fact I didn't insult you at
all.
Gordon
>I hope you
>will have to make this kind of choice one day, yankee.
Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de
> v/r
> Gordon
My info comes from one source. It is book which was printed in CIS around
97. May be the source is faulty. May be.
The info contained there (from what I remember FWIR) was following:
There were JG groups tasked to intercept bombers. Inbetween those groups
there were two (FWIR again) equipped with special modification of FW 190
which were strengthened to withstand ramming. According to source pilots
of in mentioned JGs were _obliged_ to sign paper with declaration that they
are going to down at least one A/C in each flight by all means possible
including ramming. Yet again pilots were put in those JGs for "misbehave",
thus I called them "sentenced".
Yet again, I don't have this book here with me and looks like other Russian
participants don't care to find it. Nearest time I go home I'll check it but
that won't be soon. May be I'll ask my dad to take look and find it, it
won't take long for him to look through and find it.
Well I'd propose the following approach to that_book_independent
verification of this info. Try to find out about that modified FWs, did
such design exist? If no, well the chances grow that inf is faulty, if yes,
try to find out where those A/C were assigned. It ought to be very specific
modification of FWs as it certainly increases weight of A/C and makes it
less capable against light targets. So by finding out where these A/Cs were
used you will have some clues about actions of which JGs became ground for
this info (gossip, whatever).
--
Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de
> As healthy as any mind could be in the last years of the war, when his country
> was being flattened, burned, and overrun from all sides. Its difficult to
> imagine what a 'healthy mind' would be thinking in such circumstances but many
> of the diaries from those days make it clear that even the average Germans felt
> that the world was coming to an end. I have heard the same statement from
> several that they felt that every last German would be lined up and shot once
> ill-trained, vastly outnumbered Luftwaffe fighter pilot take? Fight to the end
> and sacrifice himself against the anvil of the bomber streams or raise his
> hands and walk meekly into the hands of the people that he was certain was
> going to shoot him in the back of the head? I, thankfully, never had to face
> such a choice but I know which one I'd take.
Well than it never hurts to think in advance about this matter. I hope you
will have to make this kind of choice one day, yankee.
--
Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de
>>
>> Well than it never hurts to think in advance about this matter. I hope you
>>will have to make this kind of choice one day, yankee.
>>
> Both of my parents are Russian, Andrey. Insulting me and stating that you hope
So what? Russina, Kenians, Malasians, Eskimo I don't care. You are
f...ing _yankee_ . That's all.
Unlike you think we in Russia don't give a damn about strings of genetical
code of our friends and adversaries. So if your parents were Russians, well
there were always good and bad Russians anyway. And there will be.
> I have to face a suicidal choice one day makes me wonder if you always respond
> to being corrected by wishing the other person death. The one time in twelve
I wish those who are unfriendly to be neutralized. You included. Warning,
term "neutralized" is very flexible.
> years of service against the Soviets that I was faced with a situation that was
> mortal, I told my pilots to aim for the bridge of the Novorosiisk instead of
> their suggestion, landing our crippled helicopter on their deck. We struggled
> back to our frigate with so much damage that it didn't fly again for the rest
> of the cruise, but I was serious about what I felt our choice should be --
> giving the Soviets a reasonably intact front line ASW helo would have given
> them the edge over everyone else in my career field, not to mention that they
> traditionally didn't repatriate enlisted airmen that they captured so the
> choice was not that difficult. Luckily for all concerned, we didn't have to
> carry that "what if" any further.
For you luckily, for me unluckily.
> I used to enjoy flying against the Soviets; they were very professional as
> adversaries, but with a sense of humor in our encounters -- traits that this
> exchange with you suggests that you lack. The insult in this post was uncalled
I don't lack sense of humor. Simply I don't hide my attitude. All the rest
is the same.
> for - I didn't say, "Andrey, you don't know what the hell you are talking about
> - think about what would happen the MOMENT a "sentenced pilot" had the
> opportunity to break off and fly toward the nearest Allied base and you'll see
> how dumb the whole premise is", but I didn't; in fact I didn't insult you at
> all.
Possible, but all of them had relatives home and Gestapo wondering around,
second hardly you will "fly away" if you were sentenced for displinary
reasons say to 2 monthes of this JGs. Everything is not that simple.
Third hardly you will fly away if you know that you have decent chances to
get executed (this btw using what you yourself wrote), though I doubt this
"knowledge" was widespread, but yes nazi propaganda tried hard to portray
events so.
F.e. SU had extremily cruel system of "disciplinary battalions" which
basically ment front line stormtroops and were 4 times of normal batalions
in size. Simply everybody who survived first assault were listed as "paid
by blood" and were cleaned of all charges. Despite of absolutely deadly
(I'd say irrationaly deadly) procedure there were not that many deflections
from those battalions. Reasons - don't know, f.e. I list inbetween them the
phenomenon I call "ideological dope". There could be others.
> Gordon
ArtKramr
>From: Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de
>Date: 5/14/00 1:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <391e5...@news.uni-ulm.de>
>
> So what? Russina, Kenians, Malasians, Eskimo I don't care. You are
>f...ing _yankee_ . That's all.
> Unlike you think we in Russia don't give a damn about strings of genetical
I see you have escaped your beloved mother Russia and fled to Germany where
life is a lot better and more civilized. Gordon was loyal to his native land,
which is a lot more than you ever were. Once you ran away from Russia you are a
deserter from your native land and deserve no respect or consideration of any
kind. This is especially true whe you critisize those who were loyal to their
country and served it which is more than you ever did. Your credibility is now
zero. Once you have deserted your native land, you are not in a position to
critisize those who were loyal to their mother country And I assume you left
Russia to avoid military sevice. Right?
F/O Arthur Kramer
344th Bomb Group, 9th Air Force
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de
>>Subject: Re: Mid-air collisions, how often in WWII?
>>From: Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de
>>Date: 5/14/00 1:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>>Message-id: <391e5...@news.uni-ulm.de>
>>
>> So what? Russina, Kenians, Malasians, Eskimo I don't care. You are
>>f...ing _yankee_ . That's all.
>> Unlike you think we in Russia don't give a damn about strings of genetical
> I see you have escaped your beloved mother Russia and fled to Germany where
> life is a lot better and more civilized. Gordon was loyal to his native land,
> which is a lot more than you ever were. Once you ran away from Russia you are a
First, Art, I've left not Russia but Ukraine, technically I'm Ukrainian
citizen still, to my regret. So you missed the point at least formally.
But aside from technical or bureaucratic games you indeed have ratio in
your "escaped your beloved mother Russia" (where the hell f...ing yanks got
this cliche from? Living there for entire my life I can't connect it to any
Russian/SU slogan, common phrase, literature, song or whatever). The reason
is simple, I don't see why should I work for regime led by pro-US thiefy
cronies and have equivalent of $30 a month (quite enough to pay for
transportation fees to my workplace for the same period of time I must admit).
I'm not politician as well and have organic aversion from any "command and
control" kind of activity but have bad habit to have respectable and
competent leaders and for project I see as necessary. So I don't fit to
fight the current political mess in Russia may be except by armed means but
this I'd not like to do like didn't like my pra-pra parents while our Civil
War in 20th of this century.
Summary. I'm basically sitting and waiting preserving my scientific skills
intact (something you can't do without practice and which is going away
real fast), looking around for the outcome of the current situation which
seems to be bistable to me. The day I see that Russia adopted indeed
pro-Russian course (not Uncle Sam's lackey) and certain respectable and
proven people (political force) in my opinion are taking control in Russia
I'm starting the process of my heading back as it is not one day action.
Further, you are not quite right if you think that I completely left Russia,
I do some jobs for my friends there (btw, next to free of charge but that
are details). If Russia sinks due to US effort (like it goes today), well I
will have hard time to find and join a force/country which is going to
neutralize USA. Neutralize is a very flexible term but let's say I'd like
to see California Liberation Army together with Serbian, Somalian and Iraqi
peacekeepers trying to protect colored minorities of California from the
genocide by US WASPs by means of land operation and with the help of carpet
bombing other US cities and infrastructure (of course performed by goodwill
democratic nations and in complete compliance with UNO documents) on my TV.
Yeah, hanged say in Mexico US "war criminals" will be in menu too. That
would require quite a work but according to my estimations is not that
impossible.
> deserter from your native land and deserve no respect or consideration of any
> kind. This is especially true whe you critisize those who were loyal to their
Today is not the last day of history, is it?
> country and served it which is more than you ever did. Your credibility is now
> zero. Once you have deserted your native land, you are not in a position to
I'm not concerned about my credibility in the eyes of yanks. Sorry. I
consciously build my life in a way that I don't have any vital for me links
with USA.
> critisize those who were loyal to their mother country And I assume you left
> Russia to avoid military sevice. Right?
Wrong. You see my military profession would require a dirty job by quite
dirty means according to my own moral principles and to do it for current
US-cronies instead of even remotely serving to interests of my country would
be too much of moral strain for such a touchy and soft person as me (LOL).
That is why I've jumped from the train though in itself that was a task how
to get away and preserve friendly relations with my "supposed to be colleagues".
Second my mil. profession was given me in uni - reserve officer of RVSN.
So duties paid, skills are intact, enemy is known. Waiting.
> F/O Arthur Kramer
> 344th Bomb Group, 9th Air Force
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
--
Gordon
> So what? Russina, Kenians, Malasians, Eskimo I don't care. You are
>f...ing _yankee_ .<
My, my.. And what have I done to earn all this loathing? Your skin is that
thin about being corrected over a small historical bit of Luftwaffe trivia?
Too bad I don't stoop to using ethnic slurs or else I could call you a typical
loser Russian that has to leave his precious Rodina to find a decent job, but I
don't do things like that :)
> That's all.
> Unlike you think we in Russia don't give a damn about strings of genetical
>code of our friends and adversaries. So if your parents were Russians, well
>there were always good and bad Russians anyway. And there will be. <
So without knowing a single thing about them, the great, all-knowing God Andrey
has judged them bad, and Yankees to boot. Considering what an ass you are,
that can't be all bad.
> I wish those who are unfriendly to be neutralized. You included. Warning,
>term "neutralized" is very flexible.
Come and try, dirtbag. Or are you all mouth?
>> Luckily for all concerned, we didn't have
>to
>> carry that "what if" any further.
>
> For you luckily, for me unluckily.
You mind telling me why you think I deserve to die? Or do you hate everyone
that you lable "Yankee" equally?
> Possible, but all of them had relatives home and Gestapo wondering around,
>second hardly you will "fly away" if you were sentenced for displinary
>reasons say to 2 monthes of this JGs. Everything is not that simple.<
That doesn't change the fact that you are wrong. You have let to provide a
single shred of information to support your baseless, historically inaccurate
statement that the Germans had "sentenced Jager" squadrons, when pilots with
'bad behavior' were ordered to fly in heavily armored FW-190s and ram bombers
if necessary. No evidence at all. In fact, I have counter evidence - direct
contact with men that flew that model of FW-190 in the units that were given
the option of taking the oath to down a bomber by any means. My posts on the
Luftwaffe boards have now reached 21 responses to this thread and no one that
has ever researched the Luftwaffe gives any credit to your claim.
>Third hardly you will fly away if you know that you have decent chances to
>get executed (this btw using what you yourself wrote), though I doubt this
>"knowledge" was widespread, but yes nazi propaganda tried hard to portray
>events so.
blah, blah, blah. "Maybes", but it just didnt happen.
> F.e. SU had extremily cruel system of "disciplinary battalions" which
>basically ment front line stormtroops and were 4 times of normal batalions
>in size. Simply everybody who survived first assault were listed as "paid
>by blood" and were cleaned of all charges.<
And this would be relevent to a discussion of mythical Penal Squadron in
Luftwaffe because...?
> Despite of absolutely deadly
>(I'd say irrationaly deadly) procedure there were not that many deflections
>from those battalions. Reasons - don't know, f.e. I list inbetween them the
>phenomenon I call "ideological dope". There could be others.
In case you weren't aware, there is a huge difference between serving in a
Soviet penal battalion and flying a German fighter against bombers. Even in
cases where a Luftwaffe pilot accidentally shot down another Luftwaffe
aircraft, the pilot was not transferred to the equivelent of a suicide squad.
Pilots were too precious a commodity in the Luftwaffe to waste - they were
punished in other ways; Goering had Haberlin stripped of his command of KG 51
for cowardice (for failing to shoot down a bomber in his overloaded
rocket-equipped Me-410, even though he was a bomber pilot!) but his punishment
amounted to being removed from the promotion list and not being allowed to
command again. The only case of a condemned pilot in the Luftwaffe that I know
of is Major Ehrler, and his death sentence was considered such a shock that no
one acted on it, primarily because everyone knew that Goering was using his as
a scapegoat. He was not demoted or transferred to any sort of "special penal
unit" - instead, due to his flying skills he was trained to fight in the Me-262
jet, where he ended his career by crashing his damaged fighter into an American
bomber. He was not ordered to, or expected to, take such an action - he felt
it was a way to clear his honor. His comrades in the squadron were shocked and
deeply saddened by his act.
None of which changes the fact that you were wrong, Andrey. Even under a death
sentence, Ehrler was not ordered to ram, he did it completely by his own
choice.
Gordon
>> I see you have escaped your beloved mother Russia and fled to Germany
>where
>> life is a lot better and more civilized
Andrey responded with a manifesto that begins:
>
> First, Art, I've left not Russia
>The reason
>is simple, I don't see why should I work for regime led by pro-US thiefy
>cronies and have equivalent of $30 a month
Soooo, it was basically an issue of greed, then?
>Summary. I'm basically sitting and waiting preserving my scientific skills
>intact
translation: physical coward
>Further, you are not quite right if you think that I completely left Russia,
>I do some jobs for my friends there
Hey, "Don't ask, don't tell!" We don't care what you do for pleasure, sweetie.
>Neutralize is a very flexible term but let's say I'd like
>to see California Liberation Army together with Serbian, Somalian and Iraqi
>peacekeepers trying to protect colored minorities of California from the
>genocide by US WASPs by means of land operation and with the help of carpet
>bombing other US cities and infrastructure (of course performed by goodwill
>democratic nations and in complete compliance with UNO documents) on my TV.<
When is the last time the US carpet bombed a city, nimrod? Date and location
please, or are you inventing history again?
Your version of the world is a very interesting place, but its all just
post-Soviet depression affecting your mind.
>Yeah, hanged say in Mexico US "war criminals" will be in menu too. That
>would require quite a work but according to my estimations is not that
>impossible.
Take another hit off that crack pipe, loser. Your grip on reality is really
slipping.
>> deserter from your native land and deserve no respect or consideration of
>any
>> kind. This is especially true whe you critisize those who were loyal to
>their
>
> Today is not the last day of history, is it?
translation: "Someday, I will stop talking and act on my principles, but today
(and tomorrow), I just talk"
>> country and served it which is more than you ever did. Your credibility is
>now
>> zero. Once you have deserted your native land, you are not in a position to
>
> I'm not concerned about my credibility in the eyes of yanks.<
Well then, what do you think other Russians think of you? I would guess they
are very impressed with your ability to insult complete strangers over the
internet - its a sign of valor and bravery in your culture, right?
>Sorry. I
>consciously build my life in a way that I don't have any vital for me links
>with USA.
Yet you come to this forum and spend your time writing to us in English. :)
Pardon, but your envy is showing.
>> critisize those who were loyal to their mother country And I assume you
>left
>> Russia to avoid military sevice. Right?
>
> Wrong. You see my military profession would require a dirty job by quite
>dirty means according to my own moral principles and to do it for current
>US-cronies instead of even remotely serving to interests of my country would
>be too much of moral strain for such a touchy and soft person as me (LOL).
Funny to you perhaps. NOW are you attempting to show a sense of humor?
>That is why I've jumped from the train though in itself that was a task how
>to get away and preserve friendly relations with my "supposed to be
>colleagues".
>Second my mil. profession was given me in uni - reserve officer of RVSN.
>So duties paid, skills are intact, enemy is known. Waiting.
...in a foreign land, safe.
Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de
>>
>> So what? Russina, Kenians, Malasians, Eskimo I don't care. You are
>>f...ing _yankee_ .<
> My, my.. And what have I done to earn all this loathing? Your skin is that
> thin about being corrected over a small historical bit of Luftwaffe trivia?
> Too bad I don't stoop to using ethnic slurs or else I could call you a typical
> loser Russian that has to leave his precious Rodina to find a decent job, but I
> don't do things like that :)
Well, read my answer to Art. It covers the question.
>> That's all.
>> Unlike you think we in Russia don't give a damn about strings of genetical
>>code of our friends and adversaries. So if your parents were Russians, well
>>there were always good and bad Russians anyway. And there will be. <
> So without knowing a single thing about them, the great, all-knowing God Andrey
> has judged them bad, and Yankees to boot. Considering what an ass you are,
> that can't be all bad.
I simply know the direction and general trend in types of people who go to
USA from Russia and most importantly who enjoy staying there (like your
parents did I presume from their long life there). This gives some clues.
Though notice I didn't tell that you parents were bad, it is your assumption
not mine. From now on I don't underline such things but remember basice rule:
most of all time I get my thought clear across the board, and if you read
something different in my typing - it is your problems as I said exactly what
I've typed unless I correct it.
>> I wish those who are unfriendly to be neutralized. You included. Warning,
>>term "neutralized" is very flexible.
> Come and try, dirtbag. Or are you all mouth?
No I'm not, I'm a lawful citizen. And in case I'll have an opportunity to
perform it staying lawful I'll do it without a single second of doubt or
regret or whatever. I don't like you.
>>> Luckily for all concerned, we didn't have
>>to
>>> carry that "what if" any further.
>>
>> For you luckily, for me unluckily.
> You mind telling me why you think I deserve to die? Or do you hate everyone
> that you lable "Yankee" equally?
I ment it about US ASW helo coming to SU NAVY.
As for your death - well I'm sorry it doesn't bother me a single bit. In
case you survive it'd be work to performe your transfer to USA and giving
your crew necessary assistance, in case you die - well it would mean there
would be need in transfer of remains and cleaning the equipment. Though I
guess in latter case there would be need to gather equipment from many many
bits. Ideal scenario for your case in my book would be an intact ASW heli
standing on the deck of Novorossijsk without anybody who you need to
transfer to USA or anything you need to wash from equipment and transfer to
USA again (tell me that I lack sense of humor now). But it is unachievable
ideal scenario. From given realistic 2 I myself would prefer the one with
less amount of work necessary for SU NAVY serviceman. Sorry, no other
criteria.
>> Possible, but all of them had relatives home and Gestapo wondering around,
>>second hardly you will "fly away" if you were sentenced for displinary
>>reasons say to 2 monthes of this JGs. Everything is not that simple.<
> That doesn't change the fact that you are wrong. You have let to provide a
> single shred of information to support your baseless, historically inaccurate
> statement that the Germans had "sentenced Jager" squadrons, when pilots with
> 'bad behavior' were ordered to fly in heavily armored FW-190s and ram bombers
> if necessary. No evidence at all. In fact, I have counter evidence - direct
> contact with men that flew that model of FW-190 in the units that were given
> the option of taking the oath to down a bomber by any means. My posts on the
> Luftwaffe boards have now reached 21 responses to this thread and no one that
> has ever researched the Luftwaffe gives any credit to your claim.
I never claimed it to be true. Basically there is only one thing I claim
is true: there is a book (in Russian) which contains this info and was
printed back around 1997. This I can prove by finding out the book indexes.
Rest was provided on conditions "as is" and without any warranty by me. Use it
on your own risk and for your own benefit. May be it is groundless gossip,
though I hardly understand what was the meaning of this "option" except pilot
had kind of responsibility if he fails to perform his oath.
Now I got what you ment under "correction of my revisionistic history".
Articles on my server appeared in different time order.
>>Third hardly you will fly away if you know that you have decent chances to
>>get executed (this btw using what you yourself wrote), though I doubt this
>>"knowledge" was widespread, but yes nazi propaganda tried hard to portray
>>events so.
> blah, blah, blah. "Maybes", but it just didnt happen.
May be didn't. I won't have any problems with it. It is called information
field, there are pieces of info floating around which consists of some
facts true or false, some interpretations of those fact true of false and it
is completely up to you to filter truth from false and construct some kind
of trustworthy version of events.
Well, ask than your correspondent a few very basic questions:
1. What was the sense of this oath?
2. Who gave it and under which conditions?
3. What would have happened if pilot had failed to perform his oath under
condiotions when he simply had hadno choice (say simply no bombers around)?
4. What would have happened if pilot had failed to perform his oath under
condiotions when there were no witnesses around (he attacked alone
a lone bomber and had failed)?
5. What would have happened if pilot had failed to perform his oath under
condiotions when he there were witnesses around (he attacked a bomber in
a formation and had failed)?
May be, why not. After even all SS and Wehrmacht execution squads were
completely voluntary, in addition according to orders while execution
the commanding officer had to make a break and ask if anybody wish to abadon
the squad. Any punishment of those who refused was absolutely and strictly
prohibited, yet there were virtually none. So why I don't see why many
Germans couldn't ram their A/Cs voluntary which requires way less moral
strain than say execution of civils by blocking them in wooden house and
putting it on fire (that is what happened to part of my family in Eastern
Ukraine while 1942, Dutch SS (Sonderkommando's?) IMHO, somewhere at home
I've unit number and even some data about personalities).
Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de
> Andrey responded with a manifesto that begins:
>>
>> First, Art, I've left not Russia
Not manifesto but correction.
>>The reason
>>is simple, I don't see why should I work for regime led by pro-US thiefy
>>cronies and have equivalent of $30 a month
> Soooo, it was basically an issue of greed, then?
Nope, basic survival.
>>Summary. I'm basically sitting and waiting preserving my scientific skills
>>intact
> translation: physical coward
Yes, I'm not going to change to street trade or die because US would like me
to do so, indeed I'm coward.
>>Further, you are not quite right if you think that I completely left Russia,
>>I do some jobs for my friends there
> Hey, "Don't ask, don't tell!" We don't care what you do for pleasure, sweetie.
I've been asked, if you didn't notice. So don't ask don't tell doesn't go
here.
>>Neutralize is a very flexible term but let's say I'd like
>>to see California Liberation Army together with Serbian, Somalian and Iraqi
>>peacekeepers trying to protect colored minorities of California from the
>>genocide by US WASPs by means of land operation and with the help of carpet
>>bombing other US cities and infrastructure (of course performed by goodwill
>>democratic nations and in complete compliance with UNO documents) on my TV.<
> When is the last time the US carpet bombed a city, nimrod? Date and location
> please, or are you inventing history again?
Basra. Around Feb 1991 Second largest Iraqi city. Declared a "free fire
zone" while the "Desert storm" which well included carpet bombing AFAIK as
we remember that 80% of bombs used in the Gulf were dumb according to
Pentagon's own data (AFAIK, may it wasn't Pentagon's estimation though).
Did I satisfy your curiosity?
http://www.deoxy.org/wc/wc-ilaw.htm
Exerpt:
...
At the height of the war, this sort of bombing campaign was defended by
Pentagon spokespersons in terms reminiscent of the Vietnam War. Many parts
of Iraq became "free fire zones" in which everyone who remains in such a
zone is declared unilaterally by the U.S. as a legitimate target for
destruction. The entire city of Basra, Iraq's second largest, became such a
free fire zone, as described by Brigadier General Richard I. Neal. The
Washington Post story recounts: "In Riyadh, Marine Brig. Gen. Richard I.
Neal gave a detailed explanation of why repeated allied pounding of the
southern Iraqi city of Basra is causing 'collateral damage.' Basra, Neal
said, 'is a military town in the true sense, it is astride a major naval
base and a port facility. The infrastructure, military infrastructure, is
closely interwoven within the city of Basra itself.' The destruction of
targets in and around Basra is part of what Neal described as an
'intensifying' air campaign against all 'echelons of forces, from the front
lines and all the way back ... There is no rest for the weary, for any of
them.... There is no division, no brigade, there is no battalion that really
is spared the attacks from our pilots."'[5]
...
5."Ground War Not Imminent, Bush Says: Allies to Rely on Air Sower 'for a
While,"' Washington Post, February 12, 1991: A14.
...
Listen, Gordon (or who are you in reality though I don't care). Are you
serious expecting "rest of the world" to have a constant amnesia as US
citizens have? It must be extremily disappointing, we haven't. Neither we
get absorbed by Gonzalez soap opera. We remember. And many of us wait though
not many say so. Sleep well but with one eye open. You need it badly.
> Your version of the world is a very interesting place, but its all just
> post-Soviet depression affecting your mind.
It is not mine. It is WP's world, tell them about "post-Soviet depression".
Interdicting your cliche about "Why do you use Western sources if call them
unobjective?" I will tell you: I've number of "non-Western" sources claiming
even worth things happened but you won't consider them "credible" thus it
is kind of intellectual game for me to find discrepancies in your US/NATzO
propaganda using your own sources.
[..]
> Take another hit off that crack pipe, loser. Your grip on reality is really
> slipping.
May be mine is slipping, how about WP's?
>>> deserter from your native land and deserve no respect or consideration of
>>any
>>> kind. This is especially true whe you critisize those who were loyal to
>>their
>>
>> Today is not the last day of history, is it?
> translation: "Someday, I will stop talking and act on my principles, but today
> (and tomorrow), I just talk"
Gordon, are you instigating me for terroristic activity? Gordon, are there
penalties in US code for such actions? Should I report to US authorities?
That is second time already, first was kind of "try, dirtbag". It is going
to form pattern, what do you think, Gordon?
>>> country and served it which is more than you ever did. Your credibility is
>>now
>>> zero. Once you have deserted your native land, you are not in a position to
>>
>> I'm not concerned about my credibility in the eyes of yanks.<
> Well then, what do you think other Russians think of you? I would guess they
> are very impressed with your ability to insult complete strangers over the
> internet - its a sign of valor and bravery in your culture, right?
USENET is known as a place where people from different countries can
insult each other. Killfile me. You will stay safe f.e from info about "free
fire zone" in Basra. I guess you mental calmness is woth of it.
>>Sorry. I
>>consciously build my life in a way that I don't have any vital for me links
>>with USA.
> Yet you come to this forum and spend your time writing to us in English. :)
> Pardon, but your envy is showing.
I'm getting fun, spoiling your nerves and you can't imagine but I found
with surprise that my posts help many people in RF to crystallize and
formulate their own feelings about what is going on. I guess you will be
surprised not less I was when you learn how many RF people read r.a.m.
>> Wrong. You see my military profession would require a dirty job by quite
>>dirty means according to my own moral principles and to do it for current
>>US-cronies instead of even remotely serving to interests of my country would
>>be too much of moral strain for such a touchy and soft person as me (LOL).
> Funny to you perhaps. NOW are you attempting to show a sense of humor?
Banal joke. BTW copycat. Once I've asked one fella who was time to time
totalizator fighter why he has refused in RF special forces (know as
spetznaz). His answer accompined with specific grin was: there people will
kick me in the head routinely and nobody will be interested in my delicate
soul organization.
Don't take it seriously.
>>That is why I've jumped from the train though in itself that was a task how
>>to get away and preserve friendly relations with my "supposed to be
>>colleagues".
>>Second my mil. profession was given me in uni - reserve officer of RVSN.
>>So duties paid, skills are intact, enemy is known. Waiting.
> ...in a foreign land, safe.
For now yes, as I wouldn't like to get harmed for US interests in Russia,
I didn't wish to work for Gorbachev and then actor and ultimately liar Yeltzin
with his family gang of thiefs, for Kozyrev who sold all he could and
attempted to sell the rest too, for Berezovsky and Gusinsky who hate each
other and at least hundred of RF spec ops people already mourned because they
were fighting for these two against each other in order just to feed their
families.
I abhore it and wait. And getting meanwhile info on who is ordering this
kind of music in Russia, try to understand inner springs and details of
particular events. Now you can see in details already what happened back in
1991-92. Soon we will get more about Yeltzin's Parlament shooting, etc.
Time for info to surface decreased significantly. And my discontent is
growing.
Gordon
>> When is the last time the US carpet bombed a city, nimrod? Date and
>location
>> please, or are you inventing history again?
>
> Basra.
Basra still stands. Even at the height of the war, we didn't indiscriminately
bomb the city - and don't forget that it had been the target of years of
attacks by every weapon Iran could bring to bear. Carpet bombing means to
flatten without regard for civilian areas and you cannot prove that the US
bombers "carpet bombed" that city because it just didn't happen.
We heavily bombed the place, but NOTHING like what the Russians did to Grozny.
>
> Gordon, are you instigating me for terroristic activity? Gordon, are there
>penalties in US code for such actions? Should I report to US authorities?
>That is second time already, first was kind of "try, dirtbag". It is going
>to form pattern, what do you think, Gordon?
You call me a f___ing Yankee and expect me to call you Sir? YOU are suggesting
that I should be "neutralized", and that the US should also be "neutralized" so
I doubt if a US attorney would consider me the instigator here. But by all
means, report me - I have nothing to hide, including my total contempt for you.
> USENET is known as a place where people from different countries can
>insult each other. Killfile me.
That's the first intelligent thing I have ever seen you write. I put up with
Eni's sidestepping tactics, Mladen's boldfaced lies, and Venik's delusions, and
even disagree strongly with Michael on occasion but the one thing I never felt
necessary was to killfile someone. With your posts these last two days, I have
come to the conclusion that your words are wasted space and you have nothing of
value to say, and if getting insults is your hobby, its not mine - I will go
learn how to killfile just to be rid of your nonsense.
>
> I'm getting fun, spoiling your nerves and you can't imagine but I found
>with surprise that my posts help many people in RF to crystallize and
>formulate their own feelings about what is going on. I guess you will be
>surprised not less I was when you learn how many RF people read r.a.m.
Great. So its an ego thing for you. What a surprise. My nerves are fine - I
just don't read R.A.M. to get the views of an American-hating expatriot Russian
with a vast need for attention.
interests of my country
>would
>>>be too much of moral strain for such a touchy and soft person as me (LOL).
>
>> Funny to you perhaps. NOW are you attempting to show a sense of humor?
>
> Banal joke. BTW copycat. <
<yawn> considering this is the last post of yours that I will ever read, its
certainly not very entertaining...
>Soon we will get more about Yeltzin's Parlament shooting, etc.
>Time for info to surface decreased significantly. And my discontent is
>growing.<
Its not your country anymore, so why even pretend to care?
bye Andrey.
Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de
>>
>>> When is the last time the US carpet bombed a city, nimrod? Date and
>>location
>>> please, or are you inventing history again?
>>
>> Basra.
> Basra still stands. Even at the height of the war, we didn't indiscriminately
> bomb the city - and don't forget that it had been the target of years of
> attacks by every weapon Iran could bring to bear. Carpet bombing means to
> flatten without regard for civilian areas and you cannot prove that the US
> bombers "carpet bombed" that city because it just didn't happen.
> We heavily bombed the place, but NOTHING like what the Russians did to Grozny.
Well definitely Iraqi will have another opinion.
Further Grozny as you may happen to remember was under assault twice.
>>
>> Gordon, are you instigating me for terroristic activity? Gordon, are there
>>penalties in US code for such actions? Should I report to US authorities?
>>That is second time already, first was kind of "try, dirtbag". It is going
>>to form pattern, what do you think, Gordon?
> You call me a f___ing Yankee and expect me to call you Sir? YOU are suggesting
But you are. No I don t expect to be called "Sir". But expect you not to try to
provoke terrorism.
> that I should be "neutralized", and that the US should also be "neutralized" so
Right, you and US should. You are learning basics. Good.
> I doubt if a US attorney would consider me the instigator here. But by all
Depends of how good will be attorney and how much he will be paid. And what
are real consequences of your words (though here you can relax so far).
> means, report me - I have nothing to hide, including my total contempt for you.
And you can see perfectly my contempt of you, your country and your
friends. Parity.
>> USENET is known as a place where people from different countries can
>>insult each other. Killfile me.
> That's the first intelligent thing I have ever seen you write. I put up with
> Eni's sidestepping tactics, Mladen's boldfaced lies, and Venik's delusions, and
> even disagree strongly with Michael on occasion but the one thing I never felt
> necessary was to killfile someone. With your posts these last two days, I have
> come to the conclusion that your words are wasted space and you have nothing of
> value to say, and if getting insults is your hobby, its not mine - I will go
> learn how to killfile just to be rid of your nonsense.
You never told us about what was the sense of that oath anyway. What did
happen to those who gave but due to different reasons failed to perform?
May happen that key is somewhere there. Yet again I tell you it could be
simply gossip and about this possibility I ve warned you.
>>
>> I'm getting fun, spoiling your nerves and you can't imagine but I found
>>with surprise that my posts help many people in RF to crystallize and
>>formulate their own feelings about what is going on. I guess you will be
>>surprised not less I was when you learn how many RF people read r.a.m.
> Great. So its an ego thing for you. What a surprise. My nerves are fine - I
Absolutely not. Simply I found it funny. And I d find it quite alarming in
your shoes, but you don t care and that is very very good. Sleep well.
> just don't read R.A.M. to get the views of an American-hating expatriot Russian
> with a vast need for attention.
I don t need of attention. In fact I d better reduce an amount of attention
to my little person.
[..]
> <yawn> considering this is the last post of yours that I will ever read, its
> certainly not very entertaining...
We all learn comparing things, don t we? Well comparing flat and stupid
jokes in many Hollywood cheaps I find this joke not that bad.
>>Soon we will get more about Yeltzin's Parlament shooting, etc.
>>Time for info to surface decreased significantly. And my discontent is
>>growing.<
> Its not your country anymore, so why even pretend to care?
RUSSIA IS MY COUNTRY. Here is your mistake. I m not as rootless as your
parents were and you are (I guess). I don t sell my good attitude for
biger salary and better living conditions. Yes I m loyal to my employer
but it is a part of prof ethics. Nothing more. I ve friends here and
like them too. But I m Russian.
I ve friends in Russia, I like to live there and wish Russia to get rid of
"US friends" in order to survive and become stronger.
> bye Andrey.
ArtKramr
>Message-id: <391f3...@news.uni-ulm.de>
>
> And you can see perfectly my contempt of you, your country and your
>friends. Parity.
This is a military newsgroup. Military means soldiering. it means war. It mean
breaking things and killing poeple. You have already admitted that you fled
your native Russia to avoid military service. And of course you have zero
experience in aircraft of any kind. So what are you doing on this NG? We all
know what you are doing. You are here to troll And as deserter of your native
country and a coward who avoids military service, I would say the contempt
clearly is with what the world has for you. A man without a country who fled
to Russia's worst enemy, Germany. Have you no shame? And I think the
comtempt you have raised agaianst yourself knows no bounds.
Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de
>>Subject: Re: Mid-air collisions, how often in WWII?
>>From: Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de
>>Date: 5/14/00 5:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>>Message-id: <391f3...@news.uni-ulm.de>
>>
>> And you can see perfectly my contempt of you, your country and your
>>friends. Parity.
> This is a military newsgroup. Military means soldiering. it means war. It mean
> breaking things and killing poeple. You have already admitted that you fled
> your native Russia to avoid military service. And of course you have zero
WHAT???? Art, please where did you read it, dear? Please quote me admitting
"that you fled your native Russia to avoid military service". I await your
quote, Mr. Kramer. I guess you will find it in a same place where Bf-109 fly
on 10 000m around US bombers like you have "witnessed" here.
> experience in aircraft of any kind. So what are you doing on this NG? We all
Your reports about altitude capabilities of Bf-109 make many people here
thinking that you are actually posing somebody else here, not yourself Art.
(Unlike you) I've never did such thing myself.
> know what you are doing. You are here to troll And as deserter of your native
> country and a coward who avoids military service, I would say the contempt
Art, well, distance is good thing.
In Russia to my fellow who made such an accusation I'd propose you say a
kickboxing round with conditions of stop after 60 seconds or knockdown or
even better senkai kumite. But here are other methods and you are not my
compatriot.
Art, you would better indeed find something supportive to your statement
that I'm a "deserter" and "a <person> who avoids military service". You know
those are kind of very precise law terms and basically I'm going to hear your
explanations with documents which support your accusation. Art it is not joke,
my dear. And imagine if I've all my military related duties done in a proper
way. Hint, I'm reservist, without properly done military documents I simply
wouldn't receive my foreign passport and consequently visa to Germany.
One guy from US already sent me chunk of beer for calling me "hacker"
without any evidence on hands. Plus expences for my friendly lawyer whose
law company LAN I built and administrate. That man contacted lawyer of the
guy and they decided that USENET messages with positive ID of sender is
goood enough ground to negotiate bipartisan agreement without going to court.
So all around it was something like 500$ for the "hacker" word. Dirt cheap
I think. In your case we have 6 words ...
> clearly is with what the world has for you. A man without a country who fled
> to Russia's worst enemy, Germany. Have you no shame? And I think the
Art, why do you think that Germany "is Russia's worst enemy"? Times when
Germany had any agressive intents towards Russia as a part of SU ended with
SU troops controlling 3rd part of Germany for 40+ years. Do you have any
evidences about what just wrote or Bf-109 are again flying high? Are you
trying to stir hostilities inbetween Germany and Russia?
> comtempt you have raised agaianst yourself knows no bounds.
Well, Art, Monday is day when I perform check in the LAN of that law firm.
Most probably I'll see guy tomorrow, the latest - on Wednesday, we usually
meet in dodjo. So you have say 2 days to come up with documents about me
avoiding military service in Ukraine the coutry of my citizenship. Good luck.
I'm assigned to Pecherskiy RVK of Kiev, Ukraine. I guess you need to contact
them. Better call by phone.
> F/O Arthur Kramer
> 344th Bomb Group, 9th Air Force
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Where Bf-109 flying so high ........
ArtKramr
Keith Willshaw
<Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de> wrote in message
news:391f6...@news.uni-ulm.de...
>
> Art, well, distance is good thing.
> In Russia to my fellow who made such an accusation I'd propose you say a
> kickboxing round with conditions of stop after 60 seconds or knockdown or
> even better senkai kumite. But here are other methods and you are not my
> compatriot.
So you beat up WW2 veterans for sport as well
What a hero
Keith
Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de
No. I don't. I said my "fellow" which also means some age frame. At least
I'd not call WWII veteran who are at least 2.6-3.2 times elder than I as
"fellow" or "mate". May be I don't know English enough but IMHO such a
designations would be unapropriate at least in Russian.
> What a hero
Wrong premise, wrong conclusion. Much like intensively advocated by you
NATzO Kosovo misadventure.
> Keith
P.S. There were significant doubts voiced here about identity of Mr.
Kramer. So may happen that he is not WWII veteran and well, than :) ...
Stephen Harding
> fight the current political mess in Russia may be except by armed means but
> this I'd not like to do like didn't like my pra-pra parents while our Civil
> War in 20th of this century.
Ahhh, you were a problem child for your parents.
> seems to be bistable to me. The day I see that Russia adopted indeed
> pro-Russian course (not Uncle Sam's lackey) and certain respectable and
> proven people (political force) in my opinion are taking control in Russia
> I'm starting the process of my heading back as it is not one day action.
[...]
> neutralize USA. Neutralize is a very flexible term but let's say I'd like
> to see California Liberation Army together with Serbian, Somalian and Iraqi
> peacekeepers trying to protect colored minorities of California from the
> genocide by US WASPs by means of land operation and with the help of carpet
> bombing other US cities and infrastructure (of course performed by goodwill
> democratic nations and in complete compliance with UNO documents) on my TV.
> Yeah, hanged say in Mexico US "war criminals" will be in menu too. That
> would require quite a work but according to my estimations is not that
> impossible.
All the great Cold War slogans and fantasies!
If you actually have Mao's "Little Red Book", I'll bet it's a dogeared copy
from being read from cover to cover so enthusiastically.
> I'm not concerned about my credibility in the eyes of yanks. Sorry. I
> consciously build my life in a way that I don't have any vital for me links
> with USA.
Credibility seems to be out the window with you. As long as it is anti-American,
it's credible. You can't be much of a scientist with such a closed mind.
What a shame you missed the good old days of Stalin.
SMH
Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de
> Ahhh, you were a problem child for your parents.
I've missed it. Are you trying to joke?
[..]
> All the great Cold War slogans and fantasies!
Cold war is back. :)
> If you actually have Mao's "Little Red Book", I'll bet it's a dogeared copy
> from being read from cover to cover so enthusiastically.
Cliche and a faulty one. I've never read Mao, neither I've his books,
though I knew his daughter but he had many kids so nothing special about
it.
>> I'm not concerned about my credibility in the eyes of yanks. Sorry. I
>> consciously build my life in a way that I don't have any vital for me links
>> with USA.
> Credibility seems to be out the window with you. As long as it is anti-American,
> it's credible. You can't be much of a scientist with such a closed mind.
It was consequent analysis of US propaganda, lies and US involvment in
Russia which led to such a position. In fact my position inverted 180 degs
from 1992. So hardly you can credit me with "a closed mind", I adjust my
position in accordance with facts and information.
> What a shame you missed the good old days of Stalin.
What a shame that world now lack leaders and will to put overweight low
chicken bully country on its place. That is indeed shame. The time when
hypocrites who got richer and fatter while two world wars decided that they
can rule the world. Evening of history. Indeed sad time to live.
> SMH
lustig
Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de wrote:
>(...)
>That is why I've jumped from the train though in itself that was
>a task how to get away and preserve friendly relations with my
>"supposed to be colleagues".
>Second my mil. profession was given me in uni - reserve officer
>of RVSN.
Pardon me, but since Strategic Rocket Forces are a branch of
service that is on a very high level of constant combat
readiness, I would have thought there weren愒 too many
slots to be filled by reserve officers. I mean the task or
assigment one would扉e had during one愀 service would already be
filled by a new conscripted officer. Obviously I must扉e been
wrong:-)
Another thought was that isn愒 there a quite large possibility
that the various treaties signed by Bush and Yeltsin that
resulted in the decommissioning of missiles also meant that for a
considerable number of reserve officers of RSVN there wasn愒 a
mobilization plan placement anymore? If so, wouldn愒 that have
made your parting company with your colleagues both amicable, and
more possible than it, perhaps, could扉e been otherwise?
(These are not only OT but possibly also such personal/classified
questions that you can of course leave them uncommented.)
Lustig
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Keith Willshaw
<Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de> wrote in message
news:391fb...@news.uni-ulm.de...
> Keith Willshaw <keith_w...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>
>
> No. I don't. I said my "fellow" which also means some age frame. At least
> I'd not call WWII veteran who are at least 2.6-3.2 times elder than I as
> "fellow" or "mate". May be I don't know English enough but IMHO such a
> designations would be unapropriate at least in Russian.
>
In British English Fellow has no such connotation
and mate is basically the equivalent of the American
Buddy
Fellow is a formal
I note that this macho outburst was in direct response to a post
from Art Kramr who we all know is a WW2 vet and much
older than you.
That you feel the threat of physical violence is ever an
appropriate response to someone disagreeing with
you reflects badly on you in any case
Keith
Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de
> In British English Fellow has no such connotation
> and mate is basically the equivalent of the American
> Buddy
> Fellow is a formal
> I note that this macho outburst was in direct response to a post
> from Art Kramr who we all know is a WW2 vet and much
> older than you.
I don't know him, I see only his _contradictory_ claims.
> That you feel the threat of physical violence is ever an
> appropriate response to someone disagreeing with
> you reflects badly on you in any case
Keith, British hypocrisy is know, but please texts are
all here in USENET. You won't be able to twist them that
far. There were _no_ _physical_ threat of any kind. Yes,
in Russia to my fellow (mate) or whoever of similar age
I'd propose boxing if he couldn't substantiate his claims
about me being guilty in criminal actions with hard facts.
If he refuses or he is plain unable to do so due to age,
handicap, sex, whatever I'd call our family lawyer and
recruited witnesses. Which IMHO would be worse. Yes my
personal position - it is bad that lethal duels are not
allowed anymore, that helped to keep people like "claiming
to be WWII vet" Art Kramer at bay. Yes, I know that on my
part duel against many people would be quite unfair but
sorry that is life, nobody forced anybody to throw
ungrounded criminal charges.
> Keith
Notably Keith you didn't say a word about Mr. "claiming
to be WWII vet" Art Kramer's _criminal_ accusation of me.
In case you don't know it is criminal action to avoid
conscription in Ukriane/Russia courses/training which is
regrded as equivalent by law. Thus I'm not asking I DEMAND
Mr. Kramer to support his claims by documents. Basically he
has to dig out decision of court which found me guilty in
avoiding conscription or "deserted" as he claims.
To explain the situation in terms you can understand better
due to your I-centered British cultural background let's
consider a model:
Whoever starts now to spread info on the net that you are
thief and hacker, writes email to your clients that you Keith
Willshaw is know Internet hooligan and used to steal say credit
card numbers from hacked systems. How long will it take for
you business to collapse provided somebody puts an effort in
such spreading such an accusations? I bet 90% of your clients
will get away as fast as possible just simply because they are
not experts and dont want to risk. So here you can get why even
unbased and unsupported by documents charge in criminal action
could be extremily harmful to your wellbeing.
Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de
> In article <391ec...@news.uni-ulm.de>,
> Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de wrote:
>>(...)
>>That is why I've jumped from the train though in itself that was
>>a task how to get away and preserve friendly relations with my
>>"supposed to be colleagues".
>>Second my mil. profession was given me in uni - reserve officer
>>of RVSN.
> Pardon me, but since Strategic Rocket Forces are a branch of
> service that is on a very high level of constant combat
> readiness, I would have thought there weren愒 too many
> slots to be filled by reserve officers. I mean the task or
True, more or less.
> assigment one would扉e had during one愀 service would already be
> filled by a new conscripted officer. Obviously I must扉e been
> wrong:-)
You are right, mostly. While peace time it is definitely so. But any
time RF govt. can issue a request for reservist to join ranks for
"requalification" which means they will be obliged to serve for certain
time. F.e. similar program now is under way for reserve officers of paras,
artilery, tankers, engineers and infantry. Cause - Chechnya. If you read
Russian sources you will see it is one of the hot topics today.
> Another thought was that isn愒 there a quite large possibility
> that the various treaties signed by Bush and Yeltsin that
> resulted in the decommissioning of missiles also meant that for a
> considerable number of reserve officers of RSVN there wasn愒 a
> mobilization plan placement anymore? If so, wouldn愒 that have
That is true also. Which may be indeed the most important factor
of all. Indeed RF RVSN armament level has been reduced (for) now. But
I'm not sure that trend will continue and won't be reversed (US ABM).
So one could guess that in fact called on such program now I'll end
up somewhere either in PVO requalification courses, or "space group
troops" or VVS/VMF/Army URO testing/engineering/repair facilities.
But that will work if I change my citizenship to Russian. Which is
quite probable event. In case I remain with my Ukrainian passport
basically I'll go only to Ukr. PVO in case Ukraine starts similar
program.
> made your parting company with your colleagues both amicable, and
> more possible than it, perhaps, could扉e been otherwise?
Who do you mean under "colleagues"?
> (These are not only OT but possibly also such personal/classified
> questions that you can of course leave them uncommented.)
There is nothing secret in it. Take Russian press and see related
materials in frontpages and leading columns.
As for RVSN mobilization plan - I've not a slightest idea about
the current version of it.
> Lustig
ArtKramr
>Date: 5/15/00 5:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <391FE763...@hobart.cs.umass.edu>
>Credibility seems to be out the window with you. As long as it is
>anti-American,
>it's credible. You can't be much of a scientist with such a closed mind.
I wonder if the people at the University of Ulm realise all the anti-American
crap he is spreading under their name?
ArtKramr
>Date: 5/15/00 5:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <8foqj1$lsr$1...@sshuraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com>
>
>
><Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de> wrote in message
>news:391fb...@news.uni-ulm.de...
>> Keith Willshaw <keith_w...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>>
>
>>
>> No. I don't. I said my "fellow" which also means some age frame. At least
>> I'd not call WWII veteran who are at least 2.6-3.2 times elder than I as
>> "fellow" or "mate". May be I don't know English enough but IMHO such a
>> designations would be unapropriate at least in Russian.
>>
>
>and mate is basically the equivalent of the American
>Buddy
>
>Fellow is a formal
>
>I note that this macho outburst was in direct response to a post
>from Art Kramr who we all know is a WW2 vet and much
>older than you.
>
>appropriate response to someone disagreeing with
>you reflects badly on you in any case
>
>Keith
>
>
>
Keith Willshaw
<Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de> wrote in message
news:39200...@news.uni-ulm.de...
> Keith Willshaw <keith_w...@compuserve.co> wrote:
>
> > In British English Fellow has no such connotation
> > and mate is basically the equivalent of the American
> > Buddy
>
> > Fellow is a formal
>
> > I note that this macho outburst was in direct response to a post
> > from Art Kramr who we all know is a WW2 vet and much
> > older than you.
>
>
> > appropriate response to someone disagreeing with
> > you reflects badly on you in any case
>
> all here in USENET. You won't be able to twist them that
> far. There were _no_ _physical_ threat of any kind. Yes,
Indeed texts are available lets look at yours
>> In Russia to my fellow who made such an accusation I'd propose you say a
>> kickboxing round with conditions of stop after 60 seconds or knockdown or
>> even better senkai kumite. But here are other methods and you are not my
>> compatriot.
This is a clear statement of willingness to use physical violence
in response to a verbal criticism.
to Gordon you said
> I wish those who are unfriendly to be neutralized. You included. Warning,
> term "neutralized" is very flexible.
The implication here is very clear
Keith
ArtKramr
>From: "Keith Willshaw" keith_w...@compuserve.co
>Message-id: <8fp7t5$ed1$1...@sshuraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com>
threatens everyone. Sounds like a guy with a faint timmorous heart trying to
overcome cowardice.
Stephen Harding
> > Stephen Harding wrote:
> >
> > If you actually have Mao's "Little Red Book", I'll bet it's a dogeared copy
> > from being read from cover to cover so enthusiastically.
>
> Cliche and a faulty one. I've never read Mao, neither I've his books,
> though I knew his daughter but he had many kids so nothing special about
> it.
No doubt a cliche to a point, but not entirely faulty. The "Red Book" reference
is simply one in thinking by definitions or rules. Don't stray from the rules,
and you'll always be "correct" in your thinking. Question any rule, and there
will be problems.
> > Credibility seems to be out the window with you. As long as it is anti-American,
> > it's credible. You can't be much of a scientist with such a closed mind.
>
> It was consequent analysis of US propaganda, lies and US involvment in
> Russia which led to such a position. In fact my position inverted 180 degs
> from 1992. So hardly you can credit me with "a closed mind", I adjust my
> position in accordance with facts and information.
Well I have come to agree with many Russians in this NG about American complicity
in the degradation of Russia. We differ in *intent*. You Russians seem to believe
American incompetence and failure in creating a new post-Cold War relationship with
Russia was actually clever, evil design.
I believe it was the single most catastophic failure [of the Century] of American
foreign policy by incompetence, or worse, just plain lack of interest!!! The
Clinton administration has not really distinguished itself in foreign policy.
Domestic issues are his forte.
So we ended up with a US (and the West in general) giving large sums of money to
"Russia" via conduits who turned out to be more interested in self-gain than
national reconstruction for the better. There was a high-handedness in promoting
a "top-down" policy of change via (largely illegal?, certainly undemocratic)
dictates from above. The US really could and should have done better.
> > What a shame you missed the good old days of Stalin.
>
> What a shame that world now lack leaders and will to put overweight low
> chicken bully country on its place. That is indeed shame. The time when
> hypocrites who got richer and fatter while two world wars decided that they
> can rule the world. Evening of history. Indeed sad time to live.
All is not lost Andrey. Putin is still an unknown quantity and I understand he
just had one of Russia's disobedient press offices raided, so he may yet be
capable of reopening the Gulags, and bringing the world to the edge of nuclear
war again. The "Good Old Days" might be just be around the corner again.
Perhaps Russia should "hire" Saddam Hussein? Now there's a guy who knows how to
rule!
SMH
KDBANGLIA
Willshaw" <keith_w...@compuserve.co> writes:
>> No. I don't. I said my "fellow" which also means some age frame. At least
>> I'd not call WWII veteran who are at least 2.6-3.2 times elder than I as
>> "fellow" or "mate". May be I don't know English enough but IMHO such a
>> designations would be unapropriate at least in Russian.
>>
>
>In British English Fellow has no such connotation
>and mate is basically the equivalent of the American
>Buddy
>
>Fellow is a formal
>
As in the winter solstice preservation society song...
Freeze a jolly good fellow,
Freeze a jolly good fellow,
Freeze a jolly good fellow.....
etc, etc...
Now, about these lumps of alloy that hardly ever collided ?
Richard.
Stephen Harding
> "Keith Willshaw" keith_w...@compuserve.co wrote:
>
> > I note that this macho outburst was in direct response to a post
> > from Art Kramr who we all know is a WW2 vet and much
> > older than you.
> >
> > That you feel the threat of physical violence is ever an
> > appropriate response to someone disagreeing with
> > you reflects badly on you in any case
> >
> I could probably kick his ass anyway. (grin)
How about a duel??!!!
Art can fly his B-26. Andrey can fly his Yak-3.
Meet at 60,000 feet!
SMH
John Williams
>
> >Subject: Re: Mid-air collisions, how often in WWII?
> >Date: 5/15/00 5:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <391FE763...@hobart.cs.umass.edu>
>
> >Credibility seems to be out the window with you. As long as it is
> >anti-American,
> >it's credible. You can't be much of a scientist with such a closed mind.
>
> crap he is spreading under their name?
Thinly veiled threats are even more cowardly than those directly
spoken....
JW
Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de
>> Keith, British hypocrisy is know, but please texts are
>> all here in USENET. You won't be able to twist them that
>> far. There were _no_ _physical_ threat of any kind. Yes,
> Indeed texts are available lets look at yours
>>> In Russia to my fellow who made such an accusation I'd propose you say a
>>> kickboxing round with conditions of stop after 60 seconds or knockdown or
>>> even better senkai kumite. But here are other methods and you are not my
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> compatriot.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> This is a clear statement of willingness to use physical violence
> in response to a verbal criticism.
Absolutely not ^^^-lined sentense clearly shows that there is no intent
of any physical violence. Bug-off Keith. I know how to speak in a way that
my speech could not be considered as a threat in court.
Further, the problem is not about "verbal criticism" but about ungrounded
accusation in crime.
> to Gordon you said
Yes, to Gordon, and about different topic. This NG is in general about
violence (military) so please.
>> I wish those who are unfriendly to be neutralized. You included. Warning,
>> term "neutralized" is very flexible.
> The implication here is very clear
Nope, it is not. There is no directly spoken threat. And "flexibility" of
term underlines it. If under "neutralized" I'd mean only killed and destroyed
then it wouldn't be "flexible" but rather fixed, would it?
> Keith
Summary. Keith bug off. You still didn't say anything about Mr. Kramer's
hollow accusation of me in crime so from what I get you consider it as a
normal. I don't thus I act approprietaly.
As for you credibility - well you are certified hypocrite since your
loudmouth support of NATzO agresion against Yugoslavia. We all do remember
your wines about "serbian atrocities" proofs of which still could not be
found.
Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de
> ArtKramr wrote:
>> I could probably kick his ass anyway. (grin)
Hehe.
> How about a duel??!!!
> Art can fly his B-26. Andrey can fly his Yak-3.
> Meet at 60,000 feet!
I don't fly yak-3. Dunno about B-26 but yak-3 certainly doesn't get to
20km altitude.
> SMH
lustig
lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de wrote:
>>>That is why I've jumped from the train though in itself that
>>>was a task how to get away and preserve friendly relations
>>>with my "supposed to be colleagues".
> You are right, mostly. While peace time it is definitely so.
> But any time RF govt. can issue a request for reservist to
> join ranks for "requalification" which means they will be
> obliged to serve for certain time.
Quite, this is so in most countries with a similar system -
though in times of defense budget cuts, or all money going to
other defense needs, many are never called up to rehearse their
skills.
>F.e. similar program now is under way for reserve officers of
>paras, artilery, tankers, engineers and infantry. Cause -
>Chechnya. If you read Russian sources you will see it is one of
>the hot topics today.
What is the legal limit of the duration for such a "refresher
course"?
>> (...)made your parting company with your colleagues both
>> amicable, and more possible than it, perhaps, could扉e been
>> otherwise?
> Who do you mean under "colleagues"?
It was simply a (perhaps unfortunately) shortened version of
your own usage (see top).
> There is nothing secret in it. Take Russian press and see
> related materials in frontpages and leading columns.
The fact that something is openly discussed in the media doesn愒
always mean that it愀 perfectly okay and legal for anyone to
reveal any sort of information about it.
Lustig
PS (in reference to an item earlier in this thread: Isn愒
"Mother Russia" simply an attempt at translating "Rodina-mat"?
Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de
> Quite, this is so in most countries with a similar system -
> though in times of defense budget cuts, or all money going to
> other defense needs, many are never called up to rehearse their
> skills.
Also happens.
> What is the legal limit of the duration for such a "refresher
> course"?
Dunno exactly. Around year AFAIK. May be 9 month.
[..]
> The fact that something is openly discussed in the media doesn´t
> always mean that it´s perfectly okay and legal for anyone to
> reveal any sort of information about it.
Have no ideas about it. IMHO it is perfectly legal. I don't remember
any rule which prohibited to speak about "requalification".
> Lustig
> PS (in reference to an item earlier in this thread: Isn´t
> "Mother Russia" simply an attempt at translating "Rodina-mat"?
May be, but "Rodina-mat'" was a 3 or 4 color poster while WWII.
Since then I don't remember it used.
Stephen Harding
> PS (in reference to an item earlier in this thread: Isn´t
> "Mother Russia" simply an attempt at translating "Rodina-mat"?
I was very surprised to hear a Russian (actually Ukranian I guess)
state he'd never heard the term "Mother Russia". Certainly common
enough in Western references.
An interesting web search produced the following morsel (from http://www.cc.emory.edu/INTELNET/fi.andreev.html):
"This preoccupation with the feminine is conventionally explained partly by
geographical and historical conditions: Russia's vast stretches of open plains
are often compared metaphorically to a womb that must be safeguarded from a
foreign invasion; for centuries, Russia sustained herself as an agricultural
society, which supported a corresponding mythological vision of the earth as a
divine mother. Rural rituals of fertilizing the earth survived in Russia into
the 20th century. The very names Rus' and Rossiia are of feminine gender and
lead quite naturally to such folkloric and poetic expressions as "Mother Russia"
(matushka Rossiia) and "Rus' Wife" (Rus' - zhena )."
Apparently, older Soviet documents also contain references to "Mother Russia".
Perhaps physicists just don't hang out with artsy or mystical types.
SMH
David
giving details of WW2 aircraft collisions (worldwide) of BRITISH
aircraft.
Those in the file were all written-off as a consequence of the
accident; I have no information on those damaged but subsequently
repaired.
I should'nt imagine that these losses differ greatly from other air
forces involved in the fighting, regardless of theatre.
dg
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David
David Bromage
cms...@yahoo.com
<pierrehe...@freesbee.fr> wrote:
>
>Dermott Bolger <dermott...@nospam.ireland.com> a écrit dans le message :
>39194FEB...@nospam.ireland.com...
>> I was thinking the other evening about the skies of Europe during the
>> Allied daylight raids.
>>
>> Perhaps Art (Mr. Kramer?) might help with this.
>> I believe the Luftwaffe flew head-on attacks into formations of bombers.
>>
>> At the same time, the USAF fighters were providing cover.
>>
>> 'Must have been a tad crowded.
>>
>> How often did mid-airs occur?
>> Were the more fratricidal (bomber-bomber) or "suicidal"
>
>The Soviets had a name for the act of throwing their plane on incoming
>fighters and bombers; forgot it! I think it was a common procedure, very
>often killing the pilot, which became a Hero of the Rodina!
>Pierre-Henri
>
It was supposably a common pratice of the Free Poles who flew
Hurricanes during the Battle of Britan to ram German bombers once they
ran out of Ammo. I heard that the Poles were considered to be the
craziest of a mad lot back then.
cms
cms...@yahoo.com
wrote:
>Seriously OT (sorry gang)
>
>>
>>Geeez Gordo, booked yourself a slow boat to China?!
>>
>>I guess China would be a bit farther than 1,500 miles, but you are traveling
>>by bicycle, or you *really* pack ahead!
>
>45 50# boxes of books, 21 boxes/tubs of toys, and two houses of furniture, all
>packed by yours truly between back spasms :P To save a bit of cash, I am
>doing all the packing myself; the movers come in a few days and head off to
>Texas when I am meeting them, but the new house wont be ready for a few weeks.
>Mayday, mayday!
>
>Gordon
At least you have your priorites straight......household goods packed,
but leaving computer to the last minute. :)
cms
cms...@yahoo.com
>There's a famous piece of film taken from the ground of a twin engined German
>bomber falling almost sycamore seed-like, minus tail and wing sections external
>to the engines near to a built up area, crashing in a ball of flame.
>
>The (hurricane ?) pilot was later interviewed and he said that he'd run out of
>ammunition, so just went for the tail to chop it off.
>
>I've got this on video somewhere but I think it was about the Battle of
>Britain.
I think I know this one, the story was published in first hand detail
by the pilot in the old Ballantine's Illustrated History of World War
II "Spitfire".
cms
>Another collision, the results of which are shown in one of The Lancaster at
>War series of books is of a couple of fully bomb laden Lanc's colliding mid air
>while climbing to gain altitude over the airfield and the devastation escalated
>as parts of the wreckage dropped earthward onto other aircraft and hangars.
>
>Some lucky sod (for having this series of books) who has a copy of this heavy
>tome can give all the details as I haven't seen this since library days.
>
>
>Richard.
cms...@yahoo.com
wrote:
snip
>
>I used to enjoy flying against the Soviets; they were very professional as
>adversaries, but with a sense of humor in our encounters -- traits that this
>exchange with you suggests that you lack.
snip
I recall reading a story about an American fighter group intercepting
a probing Bear over the Artic during the cold war......the US fighters
pulled up beside the Soviet Bear, which trained its tail cannon on
them, but the funny thing the US Pilot reported was that while the
Soviet gunner was trained on them, they could see him in the window
holding up a can of Coke and waving at them with a big grin on his
face.
I guess it just goes to show that no matter what colour your uniform,
airmen are airmen.
cms
>Gordon
>
>>I hope you
>>will have to make this kind of choice one day, yankee.
>
>
Drazen Kramaric
Andrey....@get-lost-spammer.uni-ulm.de wrote:
> I ve friends in Russia, I like to live there and wish Russia to get rid of
>"US friends" in order to survive and become stronger.
Well, if all Russian patriots are like you and sit in West "waiting"
for Russia to get rid of "US friends" (how if all the patriots are
abroad?) how and when do you expect from Russia to "liberate" itself
from western influence?
In my opinion, once Russia gets in order, the people who'll bring her
where it belongs will have very little understanding for "patriots"
who fled the country in the time of Russia's greatest need.
Drax