Af/Pak & Other News (2/25/2012)

[dump...@hotmail.com]

American officers killed in Afghan Interior Ministry:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/25/us-afghanistan-korans-idUSTRE81K09T20120225



NATO withdraws staff from Afghan ministries after shooting:

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_asiapacific/view/1185273/1/.html



Intelligence Officials, Local Residents Say a Suspected US Drone Has
Crashed in Pakistan:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/intelligence-officials-local-residents-suspected-us-drone-crashed-15790811#.T0lhxvUvjIU



Pakistan demolishes bin Laden compound:

http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/25/10505937-pakistan-demolishes-bin-laden-compound



AP IMPACT: New light on drone war's death toll:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jGwhDcnqG50uUbkF8MZipS5-xpaA?docId=73aeb12a44de4331a2b235a0bc599de0



U.S.Army OH-58 Kiowa Warrior Achieve 2 Million Flight Hr Milestone:

http://www.xairforces.net/newsd.asp?newsid=939&newst=10



Iran seeks to boost nuclear work in bunker: diplomats:

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=23866:iran-seeks-to-boost-nuclear-work-in-bunker-diplomats-&catid=49:National%20Security&Itemid=115



Deadly car bomb hits outside Yemen presidential palace hours after
inauguration:

http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/25/10503201-deadly-car-bomb-hits-outside-yemen-presidential-palace-hours-after-inauguration



Syrians trapped in Homs as evacuation talks flounder:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/25/us-syria-idUSL5E8DB0BH20120225



Syria assails Saudi over arming opposition calls:

http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/syria-assails-saudi-over-arming-opposition-calls-1.3556538



Exclusive: State Department quietly warning region on Syrian WMDs:

http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/02/24/exclusive_state_department_quietly_warning_region_on_syrian_wmds



Libya urges neighbors to hand over Gaddafi supporters:

http://news.yahoo.com/libya-urges-neighbors-hand-over-gaddafi-supporters-183822036.html;_ylt=AjmpaarcA6qCmOk4szwzkaqs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNtbmxiZHAwBG1pdANUb3BTdG9yeSBGUARwa2cDNWQ0NDk2ZTQtMGI0NC0zNDY3LWE4ZWItNjYyMTljMmU5YTUyBHBvcwMxOARzZWMDdG9wX3N0b3J5BHZlcgMyY2QyNTM4MC01ZmUwLTExZTEtYmQ1Zi03NGUzZTNiMDJhNjA-;_ylg=X3oDMTFvdnRqYzJoBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANob21lBHB0A3NlY3Rpb25zBHRlc3QD;_ylv=3



N. Korea Vows ‘Sacred War’ Over U.S.-S. Korea Drills:

http://www.defensenews.com/article/20120225/DEFREG03/302250001/N-Korea-Vows-8216-Sacred-War-8217-Over-U-S-S-Korea-Drills?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE



These Droids Are For The Birds:

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htatrit/articles/20120225.aspx



Army Considering Alternatives to Building a New Ground Combat Vehicle:

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/blog/Lists/Posts/Post.aspx?ID=684



FSB Officer Accused of Killing Ex-Army Jet Designer:

http://www.xairforces.net/newsd.asp?newsid=936&newst=13



AUSA: U.S. Army Moves Ahead With M113 Replacement:

http://www.defensenews.com/article/20120223/DEFREG02/302230004/AUSA-U-S-Army-Moves-Ahead-M113-Replacement?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE



Cyber Intrusions Into Air Force Computers Take Weeks to Detect:

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/blog/Lists/Posts/Post.aspx?ID=688

[SolomonW]

On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 16:02:35 -0800 (PST), dump...@hotmail.com wrote:

> Pakistan demolishes bin Laden compound:
>
> http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/25/10505937-pakistan-demolishes-bin-laden-compound

This is a standard practice if there is any possibility that the place may
become a shrine.

[Keith W]

Its also standard practise if you want to make sure there
is no evidence left.

Keith

[bill]

Wahhabi Muslims don't worship at the shrines of sages, that's the Sufis.

This is to make bloody sure that nobody digs around in the building or
finds some plans and suddenly discovers that it was built by Pakistani
military intelligence to their design, as has been reported in the press.

--
"Hopefully the fair wind will resume, or this may well take all day."

Admiral Collingwood on being becalmed under the guns of six French ships-
of-the-line at Trafalgar

[SolomonW]

On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 12:50:14 +0000 (UTC), bill wrote:

> On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 23:20:47 +1100, SolomonW wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 16:02:35 -0800 (PST), dump...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Pakistan demolishes bin Laden compound:
>>>
>>> http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/25/10505937-pakistan-
> demolishes-bin-laden-compound
>>
>> This is a standard practice if there is any possibility that the place
>> may become a shrine.
>
> Wahhabi Muslims don't worship at the shrines of sages, that's the Sufis.
>

First we are talking here Pakistan and second this is wrong, it is quite
common in Islam to go on a pilgrimage to a holy site even for Wahhabi
Muslims check out Saudi Arabia here.


http://www.al-islam.org/ziyarat/index.htm

Note I have been to a few such places.

> This is to make bloody sure that nobody digs around in the building or
> finds some plans and suddenly discovers that it was built by Pakistani
> military intelligence to their design, as has been reported in the press.

I find it hard to believe that the Pakistani military intelligence has a
house design that identifies it as them beside the design is known.

[Andrew Swallow]

The house design may be known but who made the parts is not. There
could be embarrassing things like telephones that connect to military
telephone exchanges rather than civilian switchboards.

Andrew Swallow

[bill]

On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 23:18:56 +1100, SolomonW wrote:

> On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 12:50:14 +0000 (UTC), bill wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 23:20:47 +1100, SolomonW wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 16:02:35 -0800 (PST), dump...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> Pakistan demolishes bin Laden compound:
>>>>
>>>> http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/25/10505937-pakistan-
>> demolishes-bin-laden-compound
>>>
>>> This is a standard practice if there is any possibility that the place
>>> may become a shrine.
>>
>> Wahhabi Muslims don't worship at the shrines of sages, that's the
>> Sufis.
>>
>>
> First we are talking here Pakistan

There are plenty of Sufi Dargahs in Pakistan, or at least there were...

and second this is wrong, it is quite
> common in Islam to go on a pilgrimage to a holy site even for Wahhabi
> Muslims check out Saudi Arabia here.

But do they make shrine?

I don't know (And I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong) but I think
the graves are just that, a grave and not a shrine to a 'saint' as the
Sufi Dargahs are.

>> This is to make bloody sure that nobody digs around in the building or
>> finds some plans and suddenly discovers that it was built by Pakistani
>> military intelligence to their design, as has been reported in the
>> press.
>
> I find it hard to believe that the Pakistani military intelligence has a
> house design that identifies it as them beside the design is known.

It is within the cantonment area and so will certainly have a huge paper-
trail relating to the permission to build and what are know as 'No
Objection Certificates', of which there will be several, certainly
including one from every military establishment in the area.

Things like the electric meter, the mater meter and other services will
have used serial numbered devices which are traceable unless they are
disposed of, along with details like reinforced doors and alarm systems
which may be of types not permitted to the locals and which may have been
acquired through military channels.

There are also the claims of the heirs to the property (the owner seems
to have been killed in the attack) which complicate matters if the
property was actually built by Pakistani military intelligence as has
been reported.

Demolition of the house eliminates all of this.

[SolomonW]

On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 17:23:50 +0000 (UTC), bill wrote:

> On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 23:18:56 +1100, SolomonW wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 12:50:14 +0000 (UTC), bill wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 23:20:47 +1100, SolomonW wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 16:02:35 -0800 (PST), dump...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Pakistan demolishes bin Laden compound:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/25/10505937-pakistan-
>>> demolishes-bin-laden-compound
>>>>
>>>> This is a standard practice if there is any possibility that the place
>>>> may become a shrine.
>>>
>>> Wahhabi Muslims don't worship at the shrines of sages, that's the
>>> Sufis.
>>>
>>>
>> First we are talking here Pakistan
>
> There are plenty of Sufi Dargahs in Pakistan, or at least there were...
>
> and second this is wrong, it is quite
>> common in Islam to go on a pilgrimage to a holy site even for Wahhabi
>> Muslims check out Saudi Arabia here.
>
> But do they make shrine?
>
> I don't know (And I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong) but I think
> the graves are just that, a grave and not a shrine to a 'saint' as the
> Sufi Dargahs are.
>

They often are graves, particularly of important spiritual people where the
faithful would have sometimes traveled considerable distances to come
there, there they pray and leave valuable items.

There are plenty just do a search on
Islamic shrines in XXXXX

where XXXX can be Jordan, Egypt, Israel, etc

>>> This is to make bloody sure that nobody digs around in the building or
>>> finds some plans and suddenly discovers that it was built by Pakistani
>>> military intelligence to their design, as has been reported in the
>>> press.
>>
>> I find it hard to believe that the Pakistani military intelligence has a
>> house design that identifies it as them beside the design is known.
>
> It is within the cantonment area and so will certainly have a huge paper-
> trail relating to the permission to build and what are know as 'No
> Objection Certificates', of which there will be several, certainly
> including one from every military establishment in the area.
>

If you destroy my house now, none of this would be destroyed.

> Things like the electric meter, the mater meter and other services will
> have used serial numbered devices which are traceable unless they are
> disposed of, along with details like reinforced doors and alarm systems
> which may be of types not permitted to the locals and which may have been
> acquired through military channels.

Anything like this is possible, but it does not sound convincing. Worst
case it could be argued that it was stolen from the Pakistan military.

>
> There are also the claims of the heirs to the property (the owner seems
> to have been killed in the attack) which complicate matters if the
> property was actually built by Pakistani military intelligence as has
> been reported.
>

The heirs could still argue about the land.

> Demolition of the house eliminates all of this.

Mmmmmmmmmmm

[bill]

On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 22:23:41 +1100, SolomonW wrote:

> On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 17:23:50 +0000 (UTC), bill wrote:

>>>
>>> I find it hard to believe that the Pakistani military intelligence has
>>> a house design that identifies it as them beside the design is known.
>>
>> It is within the cantonment area and so will certainly have a huge
>> paper- trail relating to the permission to build and what are know as
>> 'No Objection Certificates', of which there will be several,
>> certainly including one from every military establishment in the area.
>>
>>
> If you destroy my house now, none of this would be destroyed.

But the starting point will be.

Do you know the address of the house?

I don't, and addresses in South Asia tend to be of the 'Soandso
Bungalow, by Suchand such junction, near the New Cinema, (next door to
Vodafone Shop) Abotabad...

>> Things like the electric meter, the mater meter and other services will
>> have used serial numbered devices which are traceable unless they are
>> disposed of, along with details like reinforced doors and alarm
>> systems which may be of types not permitted to the locals and which may
>> have been acquired through military channels.
>
> Anything like this is possible, but it does not sound convincing. Worst
> case it could be argued that it was stolen from the Pakistan military.

Nope.

Meters are fitted by teh power company and need authorising. osama
didn't sign the request...

Plus such things are invariably are accompanied by a bribe to make it
actually happen or someone 'serious' came around and leaned on the
office, so whoever signed off on the forms either got paid or got leaned
on by someone. Of course getting leaned on by someone, or doing the
leaning in this case, could well prove fatal if the news gets out

>> There are also the claims of the heirs to the property (the owner seems
>> to have been killed in the attack) which complicate matters if the
>> property was actually built by Pakistani military intelligence as has
>> been reported.
>>
>>
> The heirs could still argue about the land.

They almost certainly will, but what they won't be able to do is demand
to see the house deeds on record at the local court or the various
certificates signed off on down at the municipal offices, because
someone will have gone.

You can't just build a house in a cantonment area anywhere in the world,
and especially not in a place like Pakistan, but the paper trail is a
lot easier to obscure if the property no longer exists.

[SolomonW]

On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 18:39:25 +0000 (UTC), bill wrote:

> On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 22:23:41 +1100, SolomonW wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 17:23:50 +0000 (UTC), bill wrote:
>
>>>>
>>>> I find it hard to believe that the Pakistani military intelligence has
>>>> a house design that identifies it as them beside the design is known.
>>>
>>> It is within the cantonment area and so will certainly have a huge
>>> paper- trail relating to the permission to build and what are know as
>>> 'No Objection Certificates', of which there will be several,
>>> certainly including one from every military establishment in the area.
>>>
>>>
>> If you destroy my house now, none of this would be destroyed.
>
> But the starting point will be.
>
> Do you know the address of the house?
>
> I don't, and addresses in South Asia tend to be of the 'Soandso
> Bungalow, by Suchand such junction, near the New Cinema, (next door to
> Vodafone Shop) Abotabad...
>

It does make it easier.

>>> Things like the electric meter, the mater meter and other services will
>>> have used serial numbered devices which are traceable unless they are
>>> disposed of, along with details like reinforced doors and alarm
>>> systems which may be of types not permitted to the locals and which may
>>> have been acquired through military channels.
>>
>> Anything like this is possible, but it does not sound convincing. Worst
>> case it could be argued that it was stolen from the Pakistan military.
>
> Nope.
>
> Meters are fitted by teh power company and need authorising. osama
> didn't sign the request...
>
> Plus such things are invariably are accompanied by a bribe to make it
> actually happen or someone 'serious' came around and leaned on the
> office, so whoever signed off on the forms either got paid or got leaned
> on by someone. Of course getting leaned on by someone, or doing the
> leaning in this case, could well prove fatal if the news gets out

The fact that these details have not be investigated is interesting.

>
>>> There are also the claims of the heirs to the property (the owner seems
>>> to have been killed in the attack) which complicate matters if the
>>> property was actually built by Pakistani military intelligence as has
>>> been reported.
>>>
>>>
>> The heirs could still argue about the land.
>
>
> They almost certainly will, but what they won't be able to do is demand
> to see the house deeds on record at the local court or the various
> certificates signed off on down at the municipal offices, because
> someone will have gone.
>
> You can't just build a house in a cantonment area anywhere in the world,
> and especially not in a place like Pakistan, but the paper trail is a
> lot easier to obscure if the property no longer exists.

Yes.

I think, if the motive was to hide something, the purpose of destroying the
property is to make sure that nothing embarrassing is there that could show
up. For example, in a crack in the wall, bin Ladin could have hidden a
diary, transcripts with top government/military people, list of donations,
some photos, etc.