Fastest WW2 piston engined fighter?
The Love Doktor
spoke of engaging the emergency boost in his shuddering Tempest in
attempting to escape Ta 152s or Fw 190Ds somewhere over northern Germany
and of seeing 490 kts IAS in his hammering wreck. With 3040 hp available
(according to Closterman) in this phase, a true level speed of almost
500mph isn't beyond belief though I'm sure the vibration and fury would
have been. The Tempest was also used to chase the Me262 and if the German
jet didn't fly flat out for a reasonable period, the Tempest could at least
remain in contact.
TempestHead knows that the Republic P-47M with mega-methanol (or was it
nightmare nitrous?) reached 503 mph in trials, but this one-off was
certainly not a combat version if indeed it flew before the end of the war.
And the later P-51 was a relative slug compared to the all-or-nothing
Tempest, since it hardly even had 1700hp. Clearly any challenger needed
2500hp at the very minimum.
So the questions are: how fast was the de Havilland Hornet? And what of
the Hawker Sea Fury? Don't tell me the Ta152 was that quick - Closterman
easily outran them on emergency boost. I suspect that the Do335 would have
been fortunate to exceed 450mph, given its huge size and marginal power
advantage over the Tempest.
I know that various types have acheived higher speeds at places like the
Reno Air Races, stripped down and souped up with various modern fuels and
superchargers and so on, so what's needed here is the genuine info on a
combat-ready piston-engined aircraft as delivered to the line before the
end of WW2.
TempestHead.
Emmanuel.Gustin
: and of seeing 490 kts IAS in his hammering wreck. With 3040 hp available
: (according to Closterman) in this phase, a true level speed of almost
: 500mph isn't beyond belief though I'm sure the vibration and fury would
3040hp seems to be a little too much, even under emergency power, or with
a specially tuned engine. Officially the Sabre IIB engine was credited
with 2200hp, and the Tempest Mk.V could reach just over 700km/h (435mph).
Maybe 500mph in a full-power dive, which was not as problematic in a
Tempest as it was in some other allied fighters.
: TempestHead knows that the Republic P-47M with mega-methanol (or was it
: nightmare nitrous?) reached 503 mph in trials, but this one-off was
: certainly not a combat version if indeed it flew before the end of the war.
The P-47M was actually a combat version, supplied to units based in
Europe. It is claimed to the fastest piston-engined fighter in combat,
with a top speed of 753km/h (468mph). For an engine power of 2800hp.
There was an one-off version, the XP-47J, which reached 818km/h (508mph)
on the same engine power as the P-47M.
: So the questions are: how fast was the de Havilland Hornet? And what of
: the Hawker Sea Fury? Don't tell me the Ta152 was that quick - Closterman
: easily outran them on emergency boost. I suspect that the Do335 would have
: been fortunate to exceed 450mph, given its huge size and marginal power
: advantage over the Tempest.
Hornet : 759km/h 472mph
Sea Fury FB Mk.2 : 736km/h 457mph
Ta 152H-1 : 759km/h 472mph
Do 335A-1 : 770km/h 478mph
That Clostermann outran a Ta 152 with a Tempest could be because the
altitude they fought on was better for the Tempest. The Ta 152H was a
high-altitude fighter. Or maybe he actually encountered a Fw 190D.
Aircraft recognition must have been surprisingly difficult under such
conditions.
Emmanuel Gustin
PlaneJo
Grumman Bearcat).
Jo
Kjetil Aakra
> That Clostermann outran a Ta 152 with a Tempest could be because the
> altitude they fought on was better for the Tempest. The Ta 152H was a
> high-altitude fighter. Or maybe he actually encountered a Fw 190D.
> Aircraft recognition must have been surprisingly difficult under such
> conditions.
>
> Emmanuel Gustin
There were according to my sources some 67 Ta 152s built, most of them
Ta 152Hs. They were issued to Stab/J.G. 301 (as far as is known). Some
700 Fw 190Ds were built, not all of which reached service units, but
several famous Jagdgeschwaders recieved the type, incl. J.G.2.,J.G. 26
and J.G. 54. Now, the differences between the Fw 190D and the Ta 152H
are easily visible, the longer wings. So, I think that Clostermann, being an
experienced Fw 190 enemy, would clearly see these differences even in aerial
combat. Therefore he think he only encountered Fw 190Ds as he would have
commented on the longer wings.
The Ta 152H was fast, the story of Tank taking of in one an easily outrunning
four Mustangs should prove that. I think a Ta 152H would outrun a Tempest
at it's rated altutude.
Kjetil
Bob Keeter
>Any advance on the Hawker Tempest? Pierre Closterman (in "The Big Show")
>spoke of engaging the emergency boost in his shuddering Tempest in
>attempting to escape Ta 152s or Fw 190Ds somewhere over northern Germany
>and of seeing 490 kts IAS in his hammering wreck. With 3040 hp available
>(according to Closterman) in this phase, a true level speed of almost
>500mph isn't beyond belief though I'm sure the vibration and fury would
>have been. The Tempest was also used to chase the Me262 and if the German
>jet didn't fly flat out for a reasonable period, the Tempest could at least
>remain in contact.
>
According to "The Warplanes of the Third Reich", a Ta-152H-1 could clock 472 MPH @ 41000 ft running full boost and a methanol-water=
injection. A total of 2050 hp in a 10500 lb aircraft.
Thats the fastest Ta-152 listed.
A Fw-190D was a relative sluggard at this game of flat-out speed. The top speed noted is 426 MPH at 21650 ft. Wouldn't want to get =
into a knife fight though!
The Me262 on the other hand would apparently take a very considerable chasing down by any propeller-driven fighter. From the looks=
of things the Me262A was capable of speeds in excess of 514 MPH right down to the deck, topping out at 540 MPH at 20000 ft. Would =
not put _my_ money on a Tempest running down this fellow! Of course, the max speeds from trials data does not always reflect the ma=
x speeds of the service item.
>
>So the questions are: how fast was the de Havilland Hornet? And what of
>the Hawker Sea Fury? Don't tell me the Ta152 was that quick - Closterman
>easily outran them on emergency boost. I suspect that the Do335 would have
>been fortunate to exceed 450mph, given its huge size and marginal power
>advantage over the Tempest.
>
>
Will check my reference books at work for the Brit planes tomorrow.
A Do335 could boast about 1800 hp per engine at takeoff and 1900 hp per engine at 5900 ft with a top speed of 474 MPH in _combat_ co=
nfiguration.
All in all, 3800 hp in a fairly slick 21000 lb aircraft aint bad! But then in comparisons to the others, this was a fighter-bomber =
or a Zerstroyer (heavy fighter/ night fighter/etc).
For prop fighters, all of these seem to be considerably on the high side
for flat out airspeed.
Regards
bk
Dennis Jensen
The Love Doktor <k...@scms.rgu.ac.uk> wrote:
>Any advance on the Hawker Tempest? Pierre Closterman (in "The Big Show")
>spoke of engaging the emergency boost in his shuddering Tempest in
>attempting to escape Ta 152s or Fw 190Ds somewhere over northern Germany
>and of seeing 490 kts IAS in his hammering wreck. With 3040 hp available
>(according to Closterman) in this phase, a true level speed of almost
>500mph isn't beyond belief though I'm sure the vibration and fury would
>have been. The Tempest was also used to chase the Me262 and if the German
>jet didn't fly flat out for a reasonable period, the Tempest could at least
>remain in contact.
>
>nightmare nitrous?) reached 503 mph in trials, but this one-off was
>certainly not a combat version if indeed it flew before the end of the war.
>Tempest, since it hardly even had 1700hp. Clearly any challenger needed
>2500hp at the very minimum.
>
>the Hawker Sea Fury? Don't tell me the Ta152 was that quick - Closterman
>easily outran them on emergency boost. I suspect that the Do335 would have
>been fortunate to exceed 450mph, given its huge size and marginal power
>advantage over the Tempest.
>
>Reno Air Races, stripped down and souped up with various modern fuels and
>superchargers and so on, so what's needed here is the genuine info on a
>combat-ready piston-engined aircraft as delivered to the line before the
>end of WW2.
>
>TempestHead.
According to all sources that I have read, the fastest production single
engine fighter was the P-51H Mustang; 487mph. The Sea Fury was the quickest
Brit, ~475mph. The Ta 152H would do 472mph, and the Hornet would also do
472mph.
I would not denigrate the Mustangs "0nly 1650hp", as it (the P-51D) managed
437mph, a speed that required well over 2000hp for other fighters to achieve.
This was due to an extremely clean aerodynamic design.
Dennis
CDB100620
says they were the fastest piston planes he ever flew, much faster than
the Corsair. They could reach "an honest 445 knots," according to him.
That would be about 490 mph. Not bad for an ordinary service plane.
Incidentally, in this discussion of fast WWII fighters, why no mention of
the P-51H? They were available as the war closed down, and remained in
service for many years, being used by the Air Force as test beds for a
variety of equipment well into the late 1950s. Top speed was somewhere in
the high 480s (mph).
Keith Pennington
"Perfect freedom is reserved for the man who lives by his own work and in
that work does what he wants to do."
--R.G. Collingwood
Kjetil Aakra
>
> According to all sources that I have read, the fastest production single
> engine fighter was the P-51H Mustang; 487mph. The Sea Fury was the quickest
> Brit, ~475mph. The Ta 152H would do 472mph, and the Hornet would also do
> 472mph.
The P-51H was not used in action during WWII (not in combat at all,
actually) so it really isn't in the competition for the fastest WWII
fighter. The same goes for the Sea Fury I think.
The Ta 152H used "almost" the same engine as the Fw 190D, an Jumo 213E.
The Dora had an Jumo 213A if memory serves me right. I think the main
diffference was in supercharger layout, not horsepowers.
>
> I would not denigrate the Mustangs "0nly 1650hp", as it (the P-51D) managed
> 437mph, a speed that required well over 2000hp for other fighters to achieve.
> This was due to an extremely clean aerodynamic design.
>
> Dennis
Very true. The Mustang is an extremely clever design.
Kjetil
Bob Keeter
>
>The Ta 152H was fast, the story of Tank taking of in one an easily outrunning
>four Mustangs should prove that. I think a Ta 152H would outrun a Tempest
>at it's rated altutude.
>
>Kjetil
>
Hawker Tempest - 436 mph @ 18,500 ft
Ta 152H - 465 mph @ 29530 ft (without Meth/Water injection)
- 472 mph @ 41010 ft (with injection)
Your milage may vary!
bk
Gavin Bailey
>That Clostermann outran a Ta 152 with a Tempest could be because the
>altitude they fought on was better for the Tempest. The Ta 152H was a
>high-altitude fighter. Or maybe he actually encountered a Fw 190D.
>Aircraft recognition must have been surprisingly difficult under such
>conditions.
Unlikely. Closterman was a very experienced pilot who had
encountered A and D model as a Spitfire V and IX pilot in 1942.
In his book ("The Big Show", penguin paperback edn) you can see
gun-camera photographs of a Ta-152 that he *overhauled* and shot
down at about 10,000 feet (going from memory). Maybe the FW
pilot was incompetent on that occasion, but he quotes other
examples of Tempests outperforming Ta-152's and Do-335's. Going
from memory, I think Closterman himself successfully engaged a
Do335 in his Tempest V.
As far as 2200hp being the maximum rated output, Closterman
claims 3040 as the emergency boost output, and gives a similiar
figure (I think 2300hp) as the normal maximum continuous output -
given that most of his book is factually accurate, I'm inclined
to believe him. What's your source?
Gavin Bailey
Maury Markowitz
(Emmanuel.Gustin) wrote:
> That Clostermann outran a Ta 152 with a Tempest could be because the
> altitude they fought on was better for the Tempest. The Ta 152H was a
> high-altitude fighter. Or maybe he actually encountered a Fw 190D.
> Aircraft recognition must have been surprisingly difficult under such
> conditions.
In the book he routinely gets the two confused. There's a picture of
the long-nose FW-a-likes that the book describes as Ta's, but they are
almost certainly D-8's.
Maury
John Goscinski
> Was chatting with a former USMC pilot who flew F7Fs in the late 1940s. He
> says they were the fastest piston planes he ever flew, much faster than
> the Corsair. They could reach "an honest 445 knots," according to him.
> That would be about 490 mph. Not bad for an ordinary service plane.
Problem is, F7F was not a WWII fighter - but a stinkin high performnace
piston all the same.
John
Eric Jimerson
>Problem is, F7F was not a WWII fighter - but a stinkin high
performnace
>piston all the same.
>
>John
>
Howdy-
F7F made it to the PTO just before the end of the war. Went
officially into service on 14 AUG 1945, one day before the nips gave
up. I suppose technicaly it was a WW2 fighter...
My vote for fastest WW2 fighter... Do335. Last I read: 477 mph.
Only 20 made in to combat units, but hey, that qualifies.
jagdPanther
Stewart Rennie
Mach .90 plus, and the stripped recon versions were light enought....
I know that Spits were dived to Mach .92 during WWII in testing (meaning
a verified speed, not that Jug over the speed of sound crap)
My guess then is a Spitfire FR.XVIII. Comment? ;)
S.R.
Kjetil.Aakra
> Hawker Tempest - 436 mph @ 18,500 ft
> Ta 152H - 465 mph @ 29530 ft (without Meth/Water injection)
> - 472 mph @ 41010 ft (with injection)
>
Kind of proves my point. Thanks!
kjetil
Kjetil.Aakra
> Incidentally, in this discussion of fast WWII fighters, why no mention of
> the P-51H? They were available as the war closed down, and remained in
> service for many years, being used by the Air Force as test beds for a
> variety of equipment well into the late 1950s. Top speed was somewhere in
> the high 480s (mph).
Well, the P-51H was stricly speaking not a WWII fighter as it never fought in
this war. It never went to war as far as I know. But it's a nice plane.
Kjetil
Kjetil Aakra
> My vote for fastest WW2 fighter... Do335. Last I read: 477 mph.
> Only 20 made in to combat units, but hey, that qualifies.
>
> jagdPanther
>
Two questions.
1. What units used the Do 335? To my best knowledge, it was only tested
by the Luftwaffe and not flown by combat units (unless you are referring
to the "Oberbefehlshaber der Luftwaffe" whic only tedted it according to
my sources).
2. What references indicate that the Pfeil was used operationally?
Thanks.
Personally, I do not think that the Do 335 was equivalent to the single-enined
fighters discussed here, being more of a heavy fighter or Zerstörer.
Kjetil
Samir Sudhir Roy
But the recon version of spitfire is not a fighter .
Andrew McNeil
of Australia. They made a plane that looked like a mustang
but had a Griffon engine, called it the C-15. It had a
claimed top speed of 502 mph, but didn't fly till about
1948 (so much for WW-II . . . ).
David Bass
>
> I always thought that dive speed was never a Spitfire strongoint due to
> instability - diving was often used by opposing fighters to escape a
> Spitfire. Conversely, rate of climb & turning radius was it's forte but,
> heck I'm no expert - just a book reader.
Early Spits couldn't 'bunt' over into a dive effectivle, because the
carburettor didn't work well with negative 'G's. This would cause the
engine to die, wasting an awful lot of time in a power dive. Bf-109s,
with their fuel injected engines could easily pull out of effective
range by bunting into a power dive.
(The Spitfire pilots learned to half-roll and dive inverted, presumably
half-rolling again to get the right way up.) The Spit was not known
for its good acceleration in a dive compared with the opposition.
I don't know about instability, but in _The Spitfire Story_ (Alfred Price)
there is a reference to very high dive speeds achieved by a Spit on test
at Farnborough. There is a nice picture of it with no prop, no gearbox
and the engine cowling hanging off after the Merlin threw a rod at
about 600 (mph?) The pilot dead-sticked it about five or six miles and
landed safely, without being able to see clearly due to the vast amount
of oil the engine had barfed onto the canopy.
He noted some shuddering at high mach numbers. (The above speed would have
put the Spit at above M0.9).
Eric Jimerson
>
>Two questions.
>
>1. What units used the Do 335? To my best knowledge, it was only
tested
>by the Luftwaffe and not flown by combat units (unless you are
referring
>to the "Oberbefehlshaber der Luftwaffe" whic only tedted it according
to
>my sources).
>
>2. What references indicate that the Pfeil was used operationally?
>
>
My source (Hitler's Luftwaffe, by Tony Wood and Bill Gunston,
Salamander Military Press, pg 153) says this:
"... By VE day, about 90 aircraft had been rolled out, more
than 60 flown, and about 20 delivered to combat units..."
It does not mention the unit designations.
Jonathan David Stilwell
>by the Luftwaffe and not flown by combat units (unless you are referring
>to the "Oberbefehlshaber der Luftwaffe" whic only tedted it according to
>my sources).
>
>2. What references indicate that the Pfeil was used operationally?
>
In answer to question 2; Pierre Closterman's book "The Big Show"
memtions the Do 335. The book follows Pierre from flying high altitude
Spits over Scapa Flow with 602 Sqn to flying Tempests over France after
Overlord.
As well as encounters with Ta 152s and Me 262s, the book tells of
another memger of the squadron eyeballing but failing to shoot down what
was later determined to be a Do 335. If memory serves there may even have
been a picture, but this was probably taken after the war. It is possible
that this wasn't an operational 335, but if it wasn't, what was it doing
near the front line?
The copy I have of "The Big Show" is an old Pan paperback, and gives
an eyewitness acount of squadron life in what is now remembered as an
"air superiority" situation. I can't quote any ISBN numbers, since the
book is at home and buried.
Jonathan Stilwell
By the way, does anybody now if and when the SR71 will return to
Mildenhall (if it hasn't already)?
Richard Traill
else. Initially it looked very different with a big P&W radial.
CAC couldn't get the engine so they swapped to the Griffon, hence
the similarity to the Mustang. Good book is CA-15 in Australian Service
by Stuart Wilson.
Anyway, 502 mph bit of a lie really, 502mph after diving from many
thousand feet. Can look it up if you really want to know.....
Bob Keeter
>Two questions.
>1. What units used the Do 335? To my best knowledge, it was only tested
>by the Luftwaffe and not flown by combat units (unless you are referring
>to the "Oberbefehlshaber der Luftwaffe" whic only tedted it according to
>my sources).
>
to 1 Staffel
of the "Versuchsverband des Oberfehlshabers der Luftwafffe" for similar purposes. This may not be "fully operational" but its terri=
bly close. It may well be that unless someone bounced a Pfeil out in a test flight
from the factory, it was one of these birds.
>2. What references indicate that the Pfeil was used operationally?
>
"Warplanes of the Third Reich", William Green. DAMN good book and you can find copies in the discount racks in good bookstores (at =
least here
stateside).
>Thanks.
>
>Personally, I do not think that the Do 335 was equivalent to the single-enined
>fighters discussed here, being more of a heavy fighter or Zerst=96rer.
>
According to the cited reference, the original design goal was a single
airframe that would be a single seat fighter-bomber, a high speed recce plane, a heavily armed/armored Zeerstroer, and a two seat ni=
ght fighter.
IMHO, this plane would seem to have been at least capable of
filling each of those niches quite nicely, aside from being one of
the most intriguing aircraft of the war. On top of that, it could go
like a bat out of hell (at least for a piston engined, prop plane!).
Respects
bk
Kjetil Aakra
> In answer to question 2; Pierre Closterman's book "The Big Show"
> memtions the Do 335. The book follows Pierre from flying high altitude
> Spits over Scapa Flow with 602 Sqn to flying Tempests over France after
> Overlord.
I have read it, excellent book and a facinating story.
> As well as encounters with Ta 152s and Me 262s, the book tells of
> another memger of the squadron eyeballing but failing to shoot down what
> was later determined to be a Do 335. If memory serves there may even have
> been a picture, but this was probably taken after the war. It is possible
> that this wasn't an operational 335, but if it wasn't, what was it doing
> near the front line?
I think it was a Do 335 from the Testkommando on a test flight. The fact that the German
pilot avoided combat could indicate that he didn't want to risk the plane.
Kjetil
Jens Håkon Brandal
>Bob Keeter <b_ke...@owens.ridgecrest.ca.us> wrote:
>
>> Hawker Tempest - 436 mph @ 18,500 ft
>> Ta 152H - 465 mph @ 29530 ft (without Meth/Water injection)
>> - 472 mph @ 41010 ft (with injection)
snip
DeHavilland Hornet - 485 mph (speaking fom memory, but will check)
Anyway, it's the most aesthetic piston fighter ever built (flame bait:))
Jens
Kjetil Aakra
>
> My source (Hitler's Luftwaffe, by Tony Wood and Bill Gunston,
> Salamander Military Press, pg 153) says this:
>
> "... By VE day, about 90 aircraft had been rolled out, more
> than 60 flown, and about 20 delivered to combat units..."
>
> It does not mention the unit designations.
I have to admit that I do not think that the Do 335 was used operationally.
I have always believed that it was tested by the Versuchvernand
Oberbefehlshaber der Luftwaffe (code T9) but not in actual combat.
My reason for this conviction is the fact that such a fast and distinctive plane
would surely have been noticed by alllied fighter pilots. Except for the
reference in Clostermann's book, I have never heard of such reports.
If anyone has more information indicating that they were indeed used, please post it.
Kjetil
Bruce J. Grayson
laminar-flow wing of Spitfire 21, with two-stage Merlin. Not put into service
due to advent of jets.
495 Mph. Allegedly could have exceeded 500 mph. Could have gone faster with
original spitfire wing, although lateral control would have been bad due to
low torsional rigidity of the wings.
Mike Rowles
>Supermarine Spiteful F-16 - Intended successor to Spitfire, utilising
>laminar-flow wing of Spitfire 21, with two-stage Merlin. Not put into service
>due to advent of jets.
American P-51H (487 at 25k)?
Wasn't the Spitful powered by a Rolls Royce Grifin?
Bob Collins
day and night fighter. A "push me pull me" aircraft.
Jerrold Goldblatt
the P-51H. It was the only advanced design piston engined
fighter produced in large enough numbers to participate in
extensive combat operations during the war. The aircraft were
low production aircraft that saw little or no combat.
V/R Jerry Goldblatt
Maury Markowitz
<aup...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
The H saw "extensive combat operations"? News to me. They only built
555 of them and I didn't think any of them saw combat at all.
Maury
Kjetil Aakra
> The H saw "extensive combat operations"? News to me. They only built
> 555 of them and I didn't think any of them saw combat at all.
>
> Maury
I agree.I have never seen a P-51H in operational WWII markings,
and according to Squadron/Signal the H was not even used in Korea
or any other war for that matter. Why I don't know.
Kjetil
Mike Rowles
<Kjeti...@zmb.uib.no> wrote:
> I agree.I have never seen a P-51H in operational WWII markings,
> and according to Squadron/Signal the H was not even used in Korea
> or any other war for that matter. Why I don't know.
--
Wanted Old Slot Cars
HO, 1/32nd & 1/24th Scales
Dimitriy A. Levin
Focke Wulf Ta 152H which topped out at over 800 km/h in level flight
(using the methanol injectors in the emergency power mode).
--
Dimitriy A. Levin
Smoky Hill Internet Club
dle...@stega.smoky.org
http://stega.smoky.org/~dlevin/
Peter Evans
In article <>, Dimitriy A. Levin (dle...@stega.smoky.org) writes:
>As far as I know, the fastest WWII fighter was not the P-51H, but rather
>Focke Wulf Ta 152H which topped out at over 800 km/h in level flight
>(using the methanol injectors in the emergency power mode).
According to Warplanes of the Third Reich:
Focke-Wulf Ta152H-1 : Max Speed 472mph with GM-1 injection at
41,010ft
Dornier Do335A-1 : Max Speed 474mph at 21,325ft
Regards,
Peter
*********************************************
Aircrew - PBY-5A Consolidated Catalina VR-BPS
Plane Sailing Air Displays
Duxford - England
*********************************************
Bronze Member No66
The Focke-Wulf 189 Owl Restoration Society
*********************************************
Luftwaffe Enthusiast 1939-45
*********************************************
James Linn
>According to Warplanes of the Third Reich:
>
>Focke-Wulf Ta152H-1 : Max Speed 472mph with GM-1 injection at
> 41,010ft
>Dornier Do335A-1 : Max Speed 474mph at 21,325ft
And on the Canadian Discovery Channel Wings (of the Luftwaffe) made
the same claim, that the Do335 was the fastest piston powered plane
of the war.
James Linn
My opinions are MINE,MINE,MINE!!!
Ken Fischer
: Lets end the argument. If you check any standard work on the
: Mustang you will find that P-51H with water injection had a top
: speed of 487 mph. Roughtly 1000 aircraft were produced. This
: is an order of magnitude greater than any other advanced
: piston fighter of the war
I'm not sure about the watercooled in-line, but if
water-alcohol injection (War Emergency Power) was used on
the air-cooled radials, it required either an engine change
or lengthy inspection.
What that means to this thread, I don't know. :-)
Ken Fischer
Andrew McNeil
Jerrold Goldblatt <aup...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> Lets end the argument. If you check any standard work on the
> Mustang you will find that P-51H with water injection had a top
> speed of 487 mph. Roughtly 1000 aircraft were produced. This
> is an order of magnitude greater than any other advanced
> piston fighter of the war
>
> Jerry Goldblatt
>
But did it see action . . . supposedly the H model never saw
combat in WW-II, or even Korea. So if define WW-II planes
as those that actually saw combat, then no.
BTW, did we sell H models to any foreign country? Could
they have seen service in some other conflict in the
late 40's or 50's?
Later,
Andrew
Peter Evans
In article <4h88kd$v...@newsgate.sps.mot.com>, InterNews 1...@222.4.52.190 (InterN...@222.4.52.190) writes:
>> Lets end the argument. If you check any standard work on the
>> Mustang you will find that P-51H with water injection had a top
>> speed of 487 mph. Roughtly 1000 aircraft were produced. This
>> is an order of magnitude greater than any other advanced
>> piston fighter of the war
>But did it see action . . . supposedly the H model never saw
>combat in WW-II, or even Korea. So if define WW-II planes
>as those that actually saw combat, then no.
I hate to admit it because I thought that the Dornier Do335 was the
fastest piston engined fighter, but after much flicking through
various aviation books concerning the P51H, it seems that although
it was developed too late for the European Theatre, it did fight in
anger in the Pacific.
Bob Collins
>
> I thought the DO-335 was the fastest piston powered fighter of WWII. fastest aircraft of WWII.
Bruce J. Grayson
Jeff Freeman
I have read of instances of various German WWII aircraft experiencing
control lockup due to shock wave collection on control surfaces during
extended dives for strafing/bombing/evasion.
Chuck Yeager points out an instance of a similar effect in his P-47.
Anybody know the specifics on this? Have any data been collected?
Iskandar Taib
Compressibility. Its been reported in a lot of aircraft, including the
Typhoon, the P-47 and (most disastrously) the P-38. The P-47 was
robust enough to take it, but the P-38 would often break up.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Iskandar Taib | The only thing worse than Peach ala
Internet: nt...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu | Frog is Frog ala Peach
Home page: http://bigwig.geology.indiana.edu/iskandar/isk2.html
David J. Odenwald
: In article <4h5ng7$2...@cloner4.netcom.com>
: Jerrold Goldblatt <aup...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
: > Lets end the argument. If you check any standard work on the
: > Mustang you will find that P-51H with water injection had a top
: > speed of 487 mph. Roughtly 1000 aircraft were produced. This
: > is an order of magnitude greater than any other advanced
: > piston fighter of the war
: >
: > Jerry Goldblatt
: >
: But did it see action . . . supposedly the H model never saw
: combat in WW-II, or even Korea. So if define WW-II planes
: as those that actually saw combat, then no.
: BTW, did we sell H models to any foreign country? Could
: they have seen service in some other conflict in the
: late 40's or 50's?
: Later,
: Andrew
The fastest production piston engined fighter that saw combat in
WWII huh? If memory serves me right, then that belongs to the
TA-152H at 800kph, though the DO-335 Pfeil got up to about 850kph
but as far as I know it never saw combat. Also one must note that
both airplanes had limited production runs..ie the war ended.
As for the P/F-51H. Only 555 were produced and none were exported
to foreign countries.
-----------------------------------------
oden...@whale.st.usm.edu
-----------------------------------------
Peter Evans
>: > Lets end the argument. If you check any standard work on the
>: > Mustang you will find that P-51H with water injection had a top
>: > speed of 487 mph. Roughtly 1000 aircraft were produced. This
>: > is an order of magnitude greater than any other advanced
>: > piston fighter of the war
>: >
>: > Jerry Goldblatt
Jerrys' right!
According to "P51 Mustang" by Robert Grinsell (published by Janes
in 1980):
P-51H-NA
--------
The P-51H (NA-126) was the final production Mustang and embodied
many of the innovations and lightweight materials of the earlier
XP-51F and G prototypes. The first production P-51H was test flown
on 3rd February 1945, and was followed shortly by the delivery of
19 additional aircraft to the USAAF for operational assignment.
The P-51H arrived too late to see actual combat in Europe, but
fighter groups in the Pacific Theatre used the P-51H in the final
months of the war. A total of 555 P-51Hs were produced with an
additional 1845 cancelled with the end of hostilities. All
aircraft were built at the Inglewood facility and were produced in
the blocks noted below:
P-51H-1NA - 20
P-51H-5NA - 280
P-51H-10NA - 255
---
total - 555
>: But did it see action . . . supposedly the H model never saw
>: combat in WW-II, or even Korea. So if define WW-II planes
>: as those that actually saw combat, then no.
See above answer, although with which groups it fought is a harder
question to answer.
> The fastest production piston engined fighter that saw combat in
>WWII huh? If memory serves me right, then that belongs to the
>TA-152H at 800kph, though the DO-335 Pfeil got up to about 850kph
>but as far as I know it never saw combat. Also one must note that
>both airplanes had limited production runs..ie the war ended.
mmmmmm.... Don't know where these performance figures were obtained
from but with the many aviation books I have, the definative answer
to the original question is far from clear. The performance figures
for the P-51H series are pretty standard, but when looking at the
Ta152 and Do335 each source I have comes up with a different
answer and should be treated with conjecture. However, I tend to be
more confident with the figures quoted in William Greens "Warbirds
of the Third Reich" as despite some unusual general arrangement
drawings, many books since have used parts of this authoritive book
for their own work. As I see it the answer to the original posting,
irrespective of whether the design saw operational service or not, is
as follows:
3rd - TA152H series - 760km/h (472mph)
2nd - Do335A series - 763km/h (474mph)
1st - P-51H series - 783km/h (487mph)
Regards'n'Chocks Away!