F-15 kills in gulf war
Mark Russo
wing squardern, tail number and pilot name.
Thanx,
Marky
Paul L. Suh
> Does anybody have the officail F-15 kills in the Gulf war. I would like
> wing squardern, tail number and pilot name.
At least part of the info is in _From Shield to Storm_, by Dunnagan and
Bay. As I recall, they list all of the air-to-air kills of the war, with
the date, the aircraft types, the weapon used, and the US unit involved.
--Paul
jcun...@delphi.com
>Does anybody have the officail F-15 kills in the Gulf war. I would like
>wing squardern, tail number and pilot name.
first volume, page 216 has most of that info.:
17 Jan 33 TFW F-15C Mig-29 AIM7
17 Jan 1 TFW F-15C Mirage F1 AIM7
17 Jan 33 TFW F-15C 2 Mirage F1 AIM7 (both)
17 JAN 33 TFW F-15C Mig-29 AIM7
17 JAN 33 TFW F-15C Mig-29 AIM7
19 JAN 33 TFW F-15C Mig-25 AIM7
19 JAN 33 TFW F-15C Mig-25 AIM7
19 JAN 33 TFW F-15C Mig-29 AIM7
19 JAN 33 TFW F-15C Mig-29 AIM7
19 JAN 33 TFW F-15C Mirage F1 AIM7
19 JAN 33 TFW F-15C Mirage F1 AIM7
24 JAN RSAF F-15C 2 Mirage F1 AIM9 (both)
26 JAN 33 TFW F-15C Mig-23 AIM7
26 JAN 33 TFW F-15C Mig-23 AIM7
26 JAN 33 TFW F-15C Mig-23 AIM7
27 JAN 36 TFW F-15C 2 Mig-23 AIM9 (both)
27 JAN 36 TFW F-15C Mig-23 AIM7
27 JAN 36 TFW F-15C Mirage F1 AIM7
28 JAN 32 TFG F-15C Mig-23 AIM7
29 JAN 33 TFW F-15C Mig-23 AIM7
2 FEB 36 TFW F-15C IL-76 AIM7
6 FEB 36 TFW F-15C 2 Su-25 AIM9 (both)
6 FEB 36 TFW F-15C 2 Mig-21 AIM9 (both)
7 FEB 33 TFW F-15C 2 Su-7/17 AIM7 (both)
7 FEB 33 TFW F-15C Su-7/17 AIM7
7 FEB 36 TFW F-15C Helo AIM7
11 FEB 36 TFW F-15C Helo AIM7
This list excludes all other types that got kills. "Air War Desert Storm" from
Squadron/Signal also has a list, which is very similar. Differing details:
The second Mig-29 kill on January 19 is listed as being a ground impact rather
than an AIM7 kill. I also recall a story about an F-15E getting a helo with
an LGB. The helo was bothing a special forces unit, and the F-15E happenned to
be the closest one in the area and responded. Can't remember where I got this
from. This was in addition to the A-10 gun-helo kills (hee hee hee).
Ah! Looking deeper into my materials, I find a complete list in "Gulf Air
War Debrief" from Aerospace Publishers, the fine folks who put out "World
Airpower Jounral." It has all the info you seek on page 226. It's much
longer and more involved than the above list, though, so I'll just point
out the reference for now. If somebody needs this, though, let me know and
I'll type it in... eventually! Oh, the ISBN for this nice piece of work is
1 880588 00 5.
Additional resources on the air war in the Gulf:
Airpower in the Gulf, by james Coyne, published by the Air Force Association.
A little biased (look at the publisher) but still an excellent work. ISBN:
0-9608492-1-1.
Storm Over Iraq, by Richard P. Hallion, from Smithsonian Institution Press.
A fine work and a good read. Lots of deep backround, too. ISBN: 1-56098-190-3.
Triumph Without Victory by (gasp) the staff of US News and World Report.
This really surprised me-- I expected this book to be garbage considering the
authors, but it's quite good. Lots of useful info and accounts from pilots,
etc. And easy to read. ISBN: 0-8129-1948-3.
Well, the clock (and meter) are running, so I'll sign off for now. Let me
know if I can provide more info on this.
Cheers, all.
Jim C.
jcun...@imsa.edu
jcun...@delphi.com
Albion H. Bowers
In a previous article, jcun...@delphi.com () says:
>Mark Russo <mar...@delphi.com> writes:
>>Does anybody have the officail F-15 kills in the Gulf war. I would like
>>wing squardern, tail number and pilot name.
Nice list. Here is mine, from a different source:
Unit Date Kill By Weapon Rank, Name and aircraft
-- ------ ------------- ------- ------ ----------------------------
1 17 Jan MiG-29 F-15C Aim-7M Cp Steve Tate, 83-0017
33 17 Jan MiG-29 F-15C Aim-7M Cp Jon B Kelk, 85-0125
33 17 Jan Mirage F1 F-15C Aim-7M Cp Robert E Grater, 85-0105
33 17 Jan Mirage F1 F-15C Aim-7M Cp Robert E Grater, 85-0105
33 17 Jan MiG-29 F-15C Aim-7M Cp Charles J Magill, 85-0107
33 17 Jan Mig-29 F-15C Aim-7M Cp Rhory R Draeger, 85-0108
33 19 Jan MiG-25 F-15C Aim-7M Cp Richard C Tollini, 85-0101
33 19 Jan MiG-25 F-15C Aim-7M Cp Lawrence E Pitts, 85-0099
33 19 Jan MiG-19 F-15C Aim-7M Cp Craig W Underhill, 85-0122
33 19 Jan MiG-29 F-15C Ground Cp Cesar A Rodriguez, 85-0114
36 19 Jan Mirage F1 F-15A Aim-7M Cp David S Prather, 76-0069
36 19 Jan Mirage F1 F-15A Aim-7M Lt David G Sveden, 79-0021
RSAF 24 Jan Mirage F1 F-15 Aim-9P RSAF Cp Ayhed S Al-Shamrani,?
RSAF 24 Jan Mirage F1 F-15 Aim-9P RSAF Cp Ayhed S Al-Shamrani,?
33 26 Jan MiG-23 F-15C Aim-7M Cp Rhory R Draeger, 85-0108
33 26 Jan MiG-23 F-15C Aim-7M Cp Anthony E Schiavi, 85-0104
33 26 Jan MiG-23 F-15C Aim-7M Cp Cesar A Rodriquez, 85-0114
36 27 Jan MiG-23 F-15C Aim-9M Cp Jay T Denny, 84-0025
36 27 Jan MiG-23 F-15C Aim-9M Cp Jay T Denny, 84-0025
36 27 Jan MiG-23 F-15C Aim-7M Cp Benjamin D Powell, 84-0027
36 27 Jan Mirage F1 F-15C Aim-7M Cp Benjamin D Powell, 84-0027
32 28 Jan MiG-23 F-15A Aim-7M Cp Donald Watrous, 79-0022
33 29 Jan MiG-23 F-15C Aim-7M Cp David G Rose, 85-0102
36 2 Feb IL-76 F-15A Aim-7M Cp Gregory P Masters, 79-0074
36 6 Feb MiG-21 F-15A Aim-9M Cp Thomas N Deitz, 79-0078
36 6 Feb MiG-21 F-15A Aim-9M Cp Thomas N Deitz, 79-0078
36 6 Feb Su-25 F-15C Aim-9M Lt Robert Hehemann, 84-0019
36 6 Feb Su-25 F-15C Aim-9M Lt Robert Hehemann, 84-0019
33 7 Feb Su-7/17 F-15C Aim-7M Cp Anthony R Murphy, 85-0102
33 7 Feb Su-7/17 F-15C Aim-7M Cp Anthony R Murphy, 85-0102
33 7 Feb Su-7/17 F-15C Aim-7M Co Rick N Parsons, 85-0124
36 7 Feb Helo F-15C Aim-7M Mj Randy W May, 80-0003
36 11 Feb Helo(shared) F-15A Aim-7M Cp Steve B Dingee, 79-0048
36 11 Feb Helo(shared) F-15C Aim-7M Cp Mark McKenzie, 80-0012
4 14 Feb Helo F-15E GBU-10 Cp Richard T Bennett, 89-0487
Cp Daniel B Bakke (WSO)
36 20 Mar Su-22 F-15C Aim-9M Cp John T Donski, 84-0014
36 22 Mar Su-22 F-15C Aim-9M Cp Thomas N Deitz, 84-0010
36 22 Mar PC-9 F-15C ground Lt Robert Hehemann, 84-0015
Reference: Air International, January 1992
Now TRAVIS has also posted the following list:
No Date Kill By Weapon Note
-- ------ ------------- ------- ------ ----------------------------
1 17 Jan MiG-29 F-15C Aim-7M 1st official kill of war
2 17 Jan Mirage F1EQ F-15C Aim-7M
3 17 Jan Mirage F1EQ F-15C Aim-7M
4 17 Jan Mirage F1EQ EF-111A Ground trying to maneuver at low alt
5 17 Jan Mirage F1EQ F-15C Aim-7M
6 17 Jan F-7A (MiG-21) F/A-18C Aim-9M
7 17 Jan F-7A (MiG-21M) F/A-18C Aim-7M
8 17 Jan MiG-29 F-15C Aim-7M
9 17 Jan MiG-29 F-15C Aim-7M
10 19 Jan MiG-25 F-15C Aim-7M
11 19 Jan MiG-25 F-15C Aim-7M
12 19 Jan MiG-29 F-15C Ground trying to maneuver at low alt
13 19 Jan MiG-19 F-15C Aim-7M
14 19 Jan Mirage F1EQ F-15C Aim-7M
15 19 Jan Mirage F1EQ F-15C Aim-7M
16 24 Jan Mirage F1EQ F-15C Aim-9P Royal Saudi Air Force F-15
17 24 Jan Mirage F1EQ F-15C Aim-9P Royal Saudi Air Force F-15
18 26 Jan MiG-23 F-15C Aim-7M
19 26 Jan MiG-23 F-15C Aim-7M
20 26 Jan MiG-23 F-15C Aim-7M
21 27 Jan MiG-23 F-15C Aim-9M
22 27 Jan MiG-23 F-15C Aim-9M
23 27 Jan MiG-23 F-15C Aim-7M
24 27 Jan Mirage F1EQ F-15C Aim-7M
25 29 Jan MiG-23 F-15C Aim-7M
26 29 Jan MiG-23 F-15C Aim-7M
27 2 Feb IL-76 F-15C Aim-7M
28 6 Feb MiG-21 F-15C Aim-9M
29 6 Feb MiG-21 F-15C Aim-9M
30 6 Feb Su-25 F-15C Aim-9M
31 6 Feb Su-25 F-15C Aim-9M
32 6 Feb Mi-8 F-14A Aim-9M
33 6 Feb BO 105 A-10A Gun 1st combat kill for A-10
34 7 Feb Su-20/22 F-15C Aim-7M
35 7 Feb Su-20/22 F-15C Aim-7M
36 7 Feb Su-20/22 F-15C Aim-7M
37 7 Feb Helo F-15C Aim-7M thought to be Mi-8
38 11 Feb Helo F-15C Aim-7M thought to be Puma
39 11 Feb Helo F-15C Aim-7M thought to be Mi-8
40 14 Feb Helo F-15E GBU-10 thought to be Hughes 500
41 15 Feb Helo A-10A Gun thought to be Mi-8 or Puma
Note that his list and mine do not line up. No ideas why that is...
Al Bowers
--
Al Bowers DOD #900 NASA Dryden Flight Research Center
work: bow...@tifosi.dfrf.nasa.gov personal: ak...@yfn.ysu.edu
"...tactics always degrade strategy..." -Frank Bethwaite
Brian Jones
to be listed in either version...
Any ideas?
--Brian
Lewis Gregory
[original kill list deleted]
: Unit Date Kill By Weapon Rank, Name and aircraft
: -- ------ ------------- ------- ------ ----------------------------
[much of the second list deleted]
: 33 6 Feb BO 105 A-10A Gun 1st combat kill for A-10
What is a BO 105?
--
Check six,
Lewis "Moose" Gregory }:-) | "Oh boy, a .sig of my very own! I
mo...@infi.net | will hug it and squeeze it and pet
CIS: 76460,616 GENIE: L.GREGORY1 | it and love it..."
Air Warrior: #6225, C-land - CO 313th FS "The Flying Squirrels"
=========================================================================
Richmond, Virginia - A Truck Stop On The Information Superhighway
T.M.Haddock
>jcun...@delphi.com () says:
>
>>Aha! Whipping out "Conduct of the Persian Gulf War Final Report to Congres,"
>>first volume, page 216 has most of that info.:
>
>
>Reference: Air International, January 1992
>
>Now TRAVIS has also posted the following list:
>
Huh, mine came from GULF AIR WAR DEBRIEF by WAPJ. As much as I'd like
to, I can't take credit for its completeness or accuracy.
Please don't tell me I've got another source I can't rely on. ;)
Its got lots of pretty pictures too.
TRAVIS
Eric Bartsch
>Albion H. Bowers (ak...@yfn.ysu.edu) wrote:
>[original kill list deleted]
>: Unit Date Kill By Weapon Rank, Name and aircraft
>: -- ------ ------------- ------- ------ ----------------------------
>[much of the second list deleted]
>: 33 6 Feb BO 105 A-10A Gun 1st combat kill for A-10
> What is a BO 105?
A BO-105 is a light twin-engine helicopter made in Germany. Several military
versions have been offered for light observation and anti-tank roles. The
original version seated 5 and a longer fuselage variant, the BO-105CBS is
a more recent model. The helicopter first flew in 1967 and is a predecessor
to the BK-117, a commonly used medevac helicopter.
-Eric Bartsch
bar...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
Buddy Knight
I think the first AMRAAM kill was an F-16 in one of the brief battles (?)
AFTER the war.
Could be wrong. Been married long enough to know THAT! :-)
Buddy
fm...@msg.ti.com
Buddy Knight
>> Albion H. Bowers (ak...@yfn.ysu.edu) wrote:
>>
>> [original kill list deleted]
>>
>> : Unit Date Kill By Weapon Rank, Name and aircraft
>> : -- ------ ------------- ------- ------ ----------------------------
>>
>> [much of the second list deleted]
>>
>> : 33 6 Feb BO 105 A-10A Gun 1st combat kill for A-10
>>
>> What is a BO 105?
>>
A Helo of European extraction. Can carry, I think, 4 ATGMs and
assorted other anti-social devices.
Regards,
Buddy
fm...@msg.ti.com
Jeff Shapuras
Gulf War) the same Randy May (now Lt Col) allegedly involved in the US chopper
shootdown last spring in Iraq?
Günther Seemann
A product of the German MBB company. Not an original military design.
There are many in use for SAR purposes in Germany. The German Army
uses the BO 105 PAH, the anti tank version of the BO 105. There was a scandal
about the delivery of BO 105 to Irak. MBB sold the civil version to the
concerning contractor. The helos were transfered to Austria where they were
militarized. Why the scandal? German law prohibits weapon delivery in crisis
areas.
- Guenther
jcun...@delphi.com
the Congressional report was that in terms of "officialness" in history,
I was always told to cite the version that came from the highest authority...
not that they're always right :-)
Ain't it somthin to see how many variants there are? This demonstrates just
how difficult it is to write history. While doing research on air ops in the
gulf I tried to compile a list of US aircraft combat losses. There were many
sources available, and few of them were alike. Now you think somebody counted
how many planes we sent there and how many of them didn't come back. But the
lists varied. Then there's the definintion of a "combat loss." If a plane
got damaged by AA fire, made it back to base but crashed on landing (which
actually hapenned to an A-10), is that a "combat loss?" What about an
aircraft that is scrapped upon inspection of battle damage and found to be
unworthy of repair? Etc, etc. Then there's the fun problem of computing how
many we lost on a particular day. Again, many lists, some offical, some
not. Most they vary by what time of day they were using. Aircraft lost on
one day might be counted twice by somebody using lists complied in two different
parts of the world due to time zones. Like I said, you think somebody would
know for sure.
Dealing with these factos and more in trying to compile histories of the
events gave me a new perspective on reading history... of anything! Ask
ten different people what hapenned someplace and you get ten different
answers. Just look at the preliminary witness accounts on the U.S. Air
737 crash-- they all vary considerably. Somebody has to be wrong. So what
version makes it into the official report and/or the history books?
Cheers, all. I enjoy all the contributions to this newsgroup.
Jim CUnningham
jcun...@imsa.edu
jcun...@delphi.com
z-man
S...@WZL-MTQ1.WZL.RWTH-AACHEN.DE (G|nther Seemann) says:
>In article <940909...@shtip248.dseg.ti.com> fm...@msg.ti.com (Buddy Knight)
>writes:
>>In article <34o3ft$f...@lucy.infi.net> mo...@infi.net (Lewis Gregory) writes:
>> >> What is a BO 105?
>>A Helo of European extraction. Can carry, I think, 4 ATGMs and
>>assorted other anti-social devices.
>A product of the German MBB company. Not an original military design.
>There are many in use for SAR purposes in Germany. The German Army
>uses the BO 105 PAH, the anti tank version of the BO 105. There was a scandal
Actually, PAH-1 (Panzer Abwehr Hubschrauber Eins) is what the Bundeswehr
terms a standard-delivery military BO-105P. The Eurocopter Tiger will probab-
ly be called the PAH-2, if it ever see service. BO-105s are used for a variety
of civil missions, including medevac, law enforcement, and SAR throughout the
world.
about the delivery of BO 105 to Irak. MBB sold the civil version to the
>concerning contractor. The helos were transfered to Austria where they were
>militarized. Why the scandal? German law prohibits weapon delivery in crisis
>areas.
So instead of selling the Iraqis military helicopters, the Germans sold
them chemical weapons, ballistic missile production technology, and nuclear
weapons fabrication plants. **Sigh!** The law is a ass.
T.Z. "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed."
z-man
Yes.
Donny Chan
>From: bbj...@egret0.stanford.edu (Brian Jones)
>I had thought there was at least one AMRAAM kill, but it doesn't appear
>to be listed in either version...
I think there was no AMRAAM kill in the Persian Gulf until the
Deny Flight F-16s shot down some MiGs in the no-fly zone.
---
* DeLuxe2 1.21 #6922 * "30? Bieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!" - Tsukino Usagi
NickFlamel
helicopter with an LGB!!!
Also, James Stevenson in "The Pentagon Paradox" states that one of the
F/A-18 kills credited to an AIM-7m was also really an AIM-9 kill.
Apparently, the switch setting was wrong, and the pilot called FOX-1! but
fired a heater instead...he then switched and fired a Sparrow which
entered the fireball of the exploding MiG...
This was an engagement on the first day of the air war....and took place
within visual range....
Albion H. Bowers
In a previous article, nickf...@aol.com (NickFlamel) says:
>Funny thing, I could have sworn it was an A-10 NOT an F15 that tagged the
>helicopter with an LGB!!!
I don't believe A-10s ever got LGB dsignators.
>Also, James Stevenson in "The Pentagon Paradox" states that one of the
>F/A-18 kills credited to an AIM-7m was also really an AIM-9 kill.
>Apparently, the switch setting was wrong, and the pilot called FOX-1! but
>fired a heater instead...he then switched and fired a Sparrow which
>entered the fireball of the exploding MiG...
I can believe this. It's an itty-bitty switch on the stick and it is a
momentary type (ie it returns to its middle position). So you can't tell
by feel or looking at it. Still, the HUD symbology for the two is
radically different...
Stainless Steel Rat
NickFlamel> Funny thing, I could have sworn it was an A-10 NOT an F15 that
NickFlamel> tagged the helicopter with an LGB!!!
Nope. The two A-10 helicoper kills were gun kills. The DS Hogs weren't
equipped with laser-guided munitions: IR and TV Mavericks, Mk82s, and
cluster munition dispensors. And the gun, of course.
--
Rat <rat...@ccs.neu.edu> |When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|returned to its special container and kept
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |under refrigeration.
Buddy Knight
>>
>> In a previous article, nickf...@aol.com (NickFlamel) says:
>>
>> >Funny thing, I could have sworn it was an A-10 NOT an F15 that tagged the
>> >helicopter with an LGB!!!
>>
>> I don't believe A-10s ever got LGB dsignators.
>>
It was an F-15E.
Buddy Knight
Paveway Programs
I only speak for TI when it is on official letterhead. This ain't. :-)
Brian Andrew Kennedy
were they? Either guys who got five Iraqi kill, or 'Nam vets
(or the like) who got their fifth kill fighting Iraqis?
NickFlamel
Knight) writes:
>>
>> In a previous article, nickf...@aol.com (NickFlamel) says:
>>
>> >Funny thing, I could have sworn it was an A-10 NOT an F15 that tagged
the
>> >helicopter with an LGB!!!
>>
>> I don't believe A-10s ever got LGB dsignators.
>>
>It was an F-15E.
>Buddy Knight
>Paveway Programs
>I only speak for TI when it is on official letterhead. This ain't. :-)
I stand corrected!
---
T.M.Haddock
>Funny thing, I could have sworn it was an A-10 NOT an F15 that
>tagged the helicopter with an LGB!!!
Nope, it was an F-15E. Plenty of write-ups about this one.
The short version....
An F-15E on SCUD hunt was asked to help out a special forces unit
being pursured by the Iraqis. Upon arrival, the F-15E detected
helos and attempted to use an LGB against one while it was on the
ground. But the helo lifted just after release. The F-15E kept
the tracker on target and, at about 100ft alt, the LGB turned the
helo into so much confetti.
TRAVIS
Alistair M Henderson
>Funny thing, I could have sworn it was an A-10 NOT an F15 that tagged
>the helicopter with an LGB!!!
I seem to recall that an A-10 downed a chopper with its cannon.
Ali Henderson.
Stainless Steel Rat
>>>>> <cee...@cscd4c5.caledonia.hw.ac.uk> writes:
Alistair> I seem to recall that an A-10 downed a chopper with its cannon.
Two A-10s bagged two Soviet-manufactured Iraqui gunships, one each, in the
early days of the air war. Both were gun kills, and both were before any
F-16s had made any kills whatsoever. These kills were responsible for (half
jokingly) adding "F" to the A-10's designation.
--
Rat <rat...@ccs.neu.edu> |Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|
Chris Mann
: > Ali Henderson.
While at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in 1992, the Daytona Skyfest
had an F-14 from VF-1 Wolfpack which was in Desert storm. It looked like
the CAG's bird (Aircraft # was 100 I believe.) It had an Mi-24 silhouette
with an Iraqi flag below it, and both stabilator's looked like they had
numerous patches about 1/8 to 1/4 inch in size that looked like it could
have been caused by some sort of shrapnel. Anybody have any info on this
engagement? Thanks in advance and goodnight.
WOOF!
Kevin Au
>While at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in 1992, the Daytona Skyfest
>had an F-14 from VF-1 Wolfpack which was in Desert storm. It looked like
>the CAG's bird (Aircraft # was 100 I believe.) It had an Mi-24 silhouette
>with an Iraqi flag below it, and both stabilator's looked like they had
>numerous patches about 1/8 to 1/4 inch in size that looked like it could
>have been caused by some sort of shrapnel. Anybody have any info on this
>engagement? Thanks in advance and goodnight.
>WOOF!
On 2/6/91, a VF-1 Tomcat bagged a Mi-8 with a Sidewinder. BuNo
162603/NE103 was crewed that day by Lt Stuart Broce and CO Cdr Ron
McElraft. They probably renumbered it to NE100 after the engagement.
This was the only F-14 kill of that war. Don't know about whether it
162603 got any battle damage for the patchwork on the tail though.
jcun...@delphi.com
>While at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in 1992, the Daytona Skyfest
>had an F-14 from VF-1 Wolfpack which was in Desert storm. It looked like
>the CAG's bird (Aircraft # was 100 I believe.) It had an Mi-24 silhouette
>with an Iraqi flag below it, and both stabilator's looked like they had
>numerous patches about 1/8 to 1/4 inch in size that looked like it could
>have been caused by some sort of shrapnel. Anybody have any info on this
>engagement? Thanks in advance and goodnight.
>WOOF!
Sounds like you got to see the one and only F-14 that got a kill of any
sort in the Persian Gulf War. That is the only kill listed in the offical
lists. It was done with a Sidewinder. Reports in Aviation Week during and
after the war indicated that the Oraqis turned and ran any time they detected
the F-14's radar. Every time the 14s got vectored in and powered up, the
Iraqis turned tail. Needless to say, the 14 drivers were a tad upset about
this...
Jim C.
NickFlamel
(Stainless Steel Rat) writes:
>Two A-10s bagged two Soviet-manufactured Iraqui gunships, one each, in
the
>early days of the air war. Both were gun kills, and both were before any
>F-16s had made any kills whatsoever. These kills were responsible for
(half
>jokingly) adding "F" to the A-10's designation.
In Willam Smallwood's excellent book: WARTHOG: Flying the A-10 in the Gulf
War he shows a caricature A-10 bristling with ordnance dubbed the:
RFOA-10 for all the mission types it was called upon to do and
accomplished..
T.M.Haddock
rat...@ccs.neu.edu (Stainless Steel Rat) writes:
>
>Two A-10s bagged two Soviet-manufactured Iraqui gunships, one each, in the
>early days of the air war. Both were gun kills, and both were before any
>F-16s had made any kills whatsoever.
Yeah but it took one A-10 driver over 300 rounds to get his kill.
Man, that must be one tough helo. ;)
But it only took the F-16 1 missile to score the first AMRAAM kill
by any AIRCRAFT whatsoever. ;)
Stainless Steel Rat
T> Jumping foolheartedly to the F-16's defense....
T> rat...@ccs.neu.edu (Stainless Steel Rat) writes:
>> Two A-10s bagged two Soviet-manufactured Iraqui gunships, one each, in the
>> early days of the air war. Both were gun kills, and both were before any
>> F-16s had made any kills whatsoever.
T> Yeah but it took one A-10 driver over 300 rounds to get his kill. Man,
T> that must be one tough helo. ;)
Or a cannon designed to bust tanks on the ground, not helos in the air.
Even though the A-10 is a fighter, one of the last things it was intended
to do is aerial engagements. I think it's pretty impressive that a gun
platform designed to destroy stationary ground targets took down two agile
airborne targets sooner than the aircraft that are supposed to be doing it.
T> But it only took the F-16 1 missile to score the first AMRAAM kill
T> by any AIRCRAFT whatsoever. ;)
Ho-hum. Oh, I'm sorry, I'm supposed to be impressed, right?
--
Rat <rat...@ccs.neu.edu> |Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
Albion H. Bowers
Just so that I have this straight, we are comparing a 500,000 dollar missle
to about three-thousand dollars (about ten dollars per round, and I am
guessing) in cannon rounds? :-)
I seem to recal in Toliver's book that Hartman shot down an aircraft with
four (4) rounds one time. (!)
Jeff Crowell
: >In a previous article, tmh...@news.uta.edu (T.M.Haddock) says:
: > Jumping foolheartedly to the F-16's defense....
: > Yeah but it took one A-10 driver over 300 rounds to get his kill.
: > Man, that must be one tough helo. ;)
: Just so that I have this straight, we are comparing a 500,000 dollar missle
: to about three-thousand dollars (about ten dollars per round, and I am
: guessing) in cannon rounds? :-)
: I seem to recal in Toliver's book that Hartman shot down an aircraft with
: four (4) rounds one time. (!)
Why Al, I'm surprised at you. That was Hans Joachim Marseille.
FWIW, I think the 'hog drive done pretty good, considering the gunsight
ain't exactly optimal for air-to-hair gunnery.
Jeff
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You never need a gun as much as when you need it right now.
---hey, the randomizer picked an appropriate one for once!
Buzzard
> T> But it only took the F-16 1 missile to score the first AMRAAM kill
> T> by any AIRCRAFT whatsoever. ;)
>
> Ho-hum. Oh, I'm sorry, I'm supposed to be impressed, right?
>
> --
> Rat <rat...@ccs.neu.edu> |Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
> http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|
> PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
I'm with Rat on this one. The other point yall have pased over is $$$ it
saved a lode on Taxcash to get 2 kills with gunns vs. 1 kill with a Ram!
Not to mention that AA-gunning is a talent (very hard one at that) not a
videogame a kid could win at.
Buzzard (USN AT3 VFA-94 SHWFOTS) \ /
----O---- F-18C/D LawnDarts
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Jorge D. Tarafa "Barefoot manor" |Philosophic anarchism: The advocacy of
2407 Lime Kiln Court |voluntary cooperation and mutual aid as a
Louisville, KY 40222, USA |substitute for the coercive power of the
+1 502 426 3944 (fax) |state.
jo...@barefoot.com |Work together folks, we can change things!!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
William Johnson
>I seem to recal in Toliver's book that Hartman shot down an aircraft with
>four (4) rounds one time. (!)
Hans-Joachim Marseille was credited with this feat too, as someone else pointed
out, and Saburo Sakai's memoirs cite a victory over a P-39 with just 4 20mm
rounds. The cannon fire caused a wing to fail, trapping plane and pilot in a
flat spin.
This has always surprised me. To be sure, *I* wouldn't function very well
after stopping 4 20mm rounds :-), but one would really think that the main
structural members of a WWII fighter could take more damage than a quivering
blob of protoplasm. Sure, I could understand it if a small number of rounds
took out a plane by wasting the pilot. Sakai, however, specifically mentions
the structural failure rather than a "dead man's spiral" as though the pilot
had been hit. Furthermore, as Sakai tells it, the victim didn't know Sakai
was there but was just flying along straight and level, so it wasn't like the
wing failed under exceptional stresses -- apart from the 20mm fire, of course.
Al, O r.a.m engineering guru, can you answer a question -- how tough *were* the
main spars in a fighter, and what was the mechanism by which such a relatively
low weight of fire could take them out?
--
Bill Johnson | "The only way to deal with bureaucrats
Los Alamos National Laboratory | is with stealth and sudden violence."
Los Alamos, New Mexico USA | (Attributed to UN Secretary-General
(bjoh...@godiva.lanl.gov) | Boutros-Ghali, with thanks to Joe Chew)
Mark Russo
Fighters, not helos. I had a magazine article 2 kills were from F-18s
two from Suadi F_15's, the rest from USAF F-15's. Can't find it. loking
Thanks,
Marky
P.s impressive A-10's killing helo's, but doubt plutiomium bullets
cost ten bucks.
Thomas Schoene
: Jumping foolheartedly to the F-16's defense....
Throwing in my $0.02 for the A-10 just for the heck of it.
: Yeah but it took one A-10 driver over 300 rounds to get his kill.
: Man, that must be one tough helo. ;)
Give the A-10 a lead computing gun sight and see how many rounds it
takes, or for that matter find out how many rounds a typical F-16 gun
kill would consume. 300 rds = approx 4 seconds at 4200rpm (GAU-8 max rpm)
Given a standard burst is two seconds long it took him two tries,
without radar. Not at all bad for a mud mover.
Tom Schoene
MARK BRIAN PASSWATERS
In article <Cwsy6...@boi.hp.com>, jc...@boi.hp.com (Jeff Crowell) writes:
>: Albion H. Bowers (ak...@yfn.ysu.edu) wrote:
>
>: >In a previous article, tmh...@news.uta.edu (T.M.Haddock) says:
>
>
>: > Man, that must be one tough helo. ;)
>
>: to about three-thousand dollars (about ten dollars per round, and I am
>: guessing) in cannon rounds? :-)
>
>: four (4) rounds one time. (!)
>
>
>
>
>FWIW, I think the 'hog drive done pretty good, considering the gunsight
>ain't exactly optimal for air-to-hair gunnery.
>
>
>
>
>
>Jeff
>--
was stationed at what was called King Fahd International Airport (actually,
it's between Ras Tanura and Dhahran, and hasn't opened yet). I forget the
unit, I'm afraid, but I saw the Hog in question. I also talked to the
driver, and he gave me a number on the amound of rounds expended. I don't
remember the exact number, but it was a lot less than 300 rounds! (By the
way, I saw it over there & got a GAU-8 pratice round...)
Mark Passwaters
"JUUUUST a bit outside..."-Bob Ueker, Major League.
"Just remember one thing; God has the Redskins in a pool."-Sonny Jurgensen,
WMAL Radio, Oct. 9, 1991
"They're gonna meet Roto-rooter from the business end.."-My Dad.
M blu moon
From what I here the Tomcats were spending most of their time capping the
fleet rather that engaging the bad guys. Maybe that's why the USAF
outgunned em.
regards
Mary Shafer
mblumoon> In article <pc53o+S....@delphi.com>,
mblumoon> jcun...@delphi.com writes:
mblumoon> From what I here the Tomcats were spending most of their
mblumoon> time capping the fleet rather that engaging the bad guys.
mblumoon> Maybe that's why the USAF outgunned em.
Since the Tomcat's role in life is fleet defense, this is a perfectly
reasonable idea. Yes, I've seen the Bombcat--I got to watch a Tomcat
dropping bombs into the Chesapeake about four or five years ago, at
Pax--but the Tomcat is currently a fleet defense airplane. (In the
same vein, they had to come out with a new model of the F-15 to use it
for night/all-weather ground attack--the F-15E--rather than use the
air superiority versions--the F-15A through D--in that role.)
--
Mary Shafer DoD #362 KotFR
SR-71 Chief Engineer NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, CA
sha...@ferhino.dfrf.nasa.gov Of course I don't speak for NASA
"A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all." Unknown US fighter pilot
brian varine
On Tue, 22 Nov 1994, Mary Shafer wrote:
> On 19 Nov 1994 07:30:16 -0500, mblu...@aol.com (M blu moon) said:
>
> mblumoon> In article <pc53o+S....@delphi.com>,
> mblumoon> jcun...@delphi.com writes:
>
> mblumoon> From what I here the Tomcats were spending most of their
> mblumoon> time capping the fleet rather that engaging the bad guys.
> mblumoon> Maybe that's why the USAF outgunned em.
>
> Since the Tomcat's role in life is fleet defense, this is a perfectly
> reasonable idea. Yes, I've seen the Bombcat--I got to watch a Tomcat
> dropping bombs into the Chesapeake about four or five years ago, at
> Pax--but the Tomcat is currently a fleet defense airplane. (In the
> same vein, they had to come out with a new model of the F-15 to use it
> for night/all-weather ground attack--the F-15E--rather than use the
> air superiority versions--the F-15A through D--in that role.)
To say the F-15's outgunned the F-14 isn't really fair. How many aircraft
did the US actually shoot down? Not too many. The guys that did get kills
were just lucky that an Iraqi happened to be in the air. The Navy's
F-18's had at least one kill that I know of (from a Hornet off the Ranger??).
For the most part Desert Storm was one boring war for the figthers. As
for the Bombcat, I just can't see an F-14 doing an actual real strike.
I've seen em drop bombs, and I know they are beginning to certify them
for MK-80 series bombs. Ever see an S-3 drop bombs??? Yeah, they can
do it, I've seen pictures. "...And today US planes bombed a Serb airstrip
with an overwhelming force of F-14's and S-3's...."