Sir Frank Whittle
flybywire
and he is a Brit
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/coventry_warwickshire/4362374.stm
Keith W
"flybywire" <ram...@canoemail.com> wrote in message
news:IC66f.9300$6i4....@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
> The guy who started it all namely jet engines
>
> and he is a Brit
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/coventry_warwickshire/4362374.stm
>
>
There were several parallel reearch projects on turbo jet engine technology
in the 30's and 40's only one of which was led by Frank Whittle.
In Germany Hans Von Ohain had a research project which
produced engines for the WW2 German jet aircraft. Whittle
seems to have been the first to register a patent and his engines
were more reliable than the German engines but we cant
simply ignore the work of Ohain
Neither of these were the inventors of the notion of jet engines
however. Secondo Campini built a jet engine that used a piston
engine to compress the gases which were mixed with fuel and
burned in an afterburner to produce thrust. While less efficient
than turbojets this was a true jet as it was an air breathing engine
in which the reactive force of the burning exhaust gases produced thrust.
IRC his first engine was used to power a boat in 1932
and one of his 'thermojets' powered the Caproni CC2
jet aircraft in 1940
Whittle's genius lay in designing and building an engine that
could be produced with the techniques and materials available
at the time.
Keith
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
Chris Morton
>
>The guy who started it all namely jet engines
Speaking of Whittle, anybody have any idea why in his alternative history
fiction, science fiction author Harry Turtledove uses the made up name "Hipple"
instead? Is the Whittle family especially litigious?
--
--
Gun control, the theory that 110lb. women should have to fistfight with 210lb.
rapists.
Kurt R. Todoroff
Chris Morton <cmo...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> In article <IC66f.9300$6i4....@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net>, flybywire says...
> >
> >The guy who started it all namely jet engines
>
> Speaking of Whittle, anybody have any idea why in his alternative history
> fiction, science fiction author Harry Turtledove uses the made up name
> "Hipple"
> instead? Is the Whittle family especially litigious?
Whittle spoke to the Aero Propulsion majors at the United States Air
Force Academy in the early seventies. He was really a neat guy. Nice
sense of humor. During his lecture, he said (not a direct quotation):
Reciprocating motion is wonderful in nature,
but I have no use for it in engineering.
--
Kurt Todoroff
kurt.r....@comcast.net
Markets, not mandates and mob rule.
Consent, not coercion.
Steve Hix
"Keith W" <keit...@kwillshaw.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> "flybywire" <ram...@canoemail.com> wrote in message
> news:IC66f.9300$6i4....@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
> > The guy who started it all namely jet engines
> >
> > and he is a Brit
> >
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/coventry_warwickshire/4362374.stm
> >
> >
>
> There were several parallel reearch projects on turbo jet engine technology
> in the 30's and 40's only one of which was led by Frank Whittle.
>
> In Germany Hans Von Ohain had a research project which
> produced engines for the WW2 German jet aircraft. Whittle
> seems to have been the first to register a patent and his engines
> were more reliable than the German engines but we cant
> simply ignore the work of Ohain
>
> Neither of these were the inventors of the notion of jet engines
> however. Secondo Campini built a jet engine that used a piston
> engine to compress the gases which were mixed with fuel and
> burned in an afterburner to produce thrust. While less efficient
> than turbojets this was a true jet as it was an air breathing engine
> in which the reactive force of the burning exhaust gases produced thrust.
And Campini's approach was prefigured in Coanda's work in France before
WW1. Coanda's engine was working in 1914; too bad he crashed the
airplane it was installed in during test run-ups.
Mailman
Sorry, his engine was far from a "first". Ohain did quite a bit of work in
Germany at about the same time, and several people worked on jet engines
even earlier.
AFAIK the first jet-powered flight was achieved by Coanda in 1910 (even if
the plane did not survive it)!
--
Mailman
Richard Brooks
> On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:07:36 +0000, flybywire wrote:
>
>
>>The guy who started it all namely jet engines
>>
>>and he is a Brit
>>
>>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/coventry_warwickshire/4362374.stm
>
>
> Sorry, his engine was far from a "first". Ohain did quite a bit of work in
> Germany at about the same time, and several people worked on jet engines
> even earlier.
>
> AFAIK the first jet-powered flight was achieved by Coanda in 1910 (even if
> the plane did not survive it)!
Maybe he's the first Brit' to look into copyright and 'showmanship'! ;-)
Electric light, manned flight..... You have a bit of paper then you're
first!
Richard.
--
Celebrate Eid Safely!
Don't leave cooking unattended.
Keith W
"Richard Brooks" <richar...@kdbanglia.com> wrote in message
news:4359633d$0$41138$1472...@news.sunsite.dk...
Indeed and when it comes to electric light Joseph Swan got in first.
Edison had to buy him out. You see Swan received a British patent
for his device in 1878, about a year before Thomas Edison and
produced a working lamp before him as well.
Swan took Edison to court for patent infringement. Edison lost and
as part of the settlement, Edison was forced to take Swan in as a
partner in his British electric works. The company was called the
Edison and Swan United Electric Company (later known as Ediswan
which was then incorporated into Thorn Lighting Ltd).
Eventually, Edison acquired all of Swan's interest in the company.
Swan sold his United States patent rights to the Brush Electric Company
in June 1882
Keith
tomcervo
could be produced with the techniques and materials available
at the time."
And in the end that's the genius that matters. In a similar vein,
Francis K. Mason noted the difference between the Me-262 and the
Gloster Meteor. The 262 was rushed into production, bugs and all, as a
last-ditch expedient by an air force facing imminent defeat; the Meteor
was phased into production and service in a logical, timely manner, by
an air force on the verge of victory in no need of desperate meaures,
and remained in service for more than a decade.
The 262 was faster, but the RAF's system was superior. That's the
system that Whittle came out of.
Rob Arndt
tried to fly it himself when the tuning of the engine turned into the
a/c moving forward. Sadly, he crashed it and didn;t have the funds to
build another one of else there would have been jet biplanes in WW1.
Coanda was Rumanian and NOT a Brit. His jet was a thermal type but
still not a prop engine. Payen of France, prior to the war, was working
on the world's first ramjet powered a/c but the Melot ramjet intended
for the Payen Flechair had technical problems and had to be designed
with a prop engine instead.
When the war started, Coanda was arrested by the SS in Paris where he
was living and forced to work on a 12 jet disc aircraft- the Coanda
Lenticular Flugscheiben based on his patent of the Coanda effect on
concave surfaces which the SS discovered after raiding the patent
offices of all occupied countries. The Coanda disc was windtunnel
tested but not approved for production due to the number of jets
needed- 12 Jumo 004s (already being used by the Me-262 and Ar-234).
His disc design was validated postwar and Dr. Richard Miethe tried to
use the Coanda jet type design at AVRO Canada in a jet far more capable
than the propaganda Avrocar hovercraft "Flying Saucer" which was really
a "Flying Jeep" GETOL.
Rob
Rob Arndt
SS LENTICULAR FLUGSCHEIBE
(1940-1944)
Henri Coanda, a Rumanian aeronautical engineer born in 1886, was living
in Paris at the turn of the century.
By 1910, Coanda had built the world’s first designed jet aircraft- the
bi-plane “Turbine Aeroplane” which was displayed during an exposition
in Paris.
Coanda, however, missed his critical historic claim to fame while
toying with the aircraft’s primitive water-cooled 50 hp four-cylinder
Clerget motor-driven thermal jet turbine which Coanda called a
“Air-Reaction Engine“. The motor was connected to a gearbox and then to
a compressor which rotated at 4,000 rpm. At the front of the aircraft a
huge “Obturator” controlled the amount of air entering the compressor.
>From the compressor the air then went to the “burning room” combustion
chambers located on each side of the fuselage where the engine exhaust
was mixed with fuel and ignited, creating very hot expansion of the
exhaust which exited through tubes and down the steel-plated sides of
the bi-plane producing thrust.
While making slight adjustments while the engine warmed up the thermal
jet started the aircraft rolling forward. Not being a pilot, Coanda
jumped into the jet aircraft anyway and attempted to fly it. He failed
and crashed, being ejected from the aircraft in the process.
Another Turbine Aeroplane was not attempted. However, Coanda noticed
that the flames from the engine exhausts went around the protective
plates and converged again on the fuselage. This led to Coanda’s famous
physical phenomenon discovery that when a liquid moves at high speed
near a curved surface, it adapts itself to that curvature. This also
applies to air, but the flow speed must be much higher for
effectiveness. It is a “suction” effect. Thus, the “Coanda Effect” was
discovered and Coanda himself quickly experimented with it before
filing for three new propulsion patents in 1938.
Patent No. 2,108,652 dated February 15, 1938 concerned airflow
acceleration over the periphery of a concave disc.
Despite this remarkable idea, no official interest came of it until the
German occupation of Paris in 1940. The SS immediately brought Coanda
in and put him to work on designing a large disc to be powered by the
latest in German jet engine technology.
Coanda for his part designed a strange lenticular disc with a diameter
of 20 meters. It was to utilize twelve Jumo 004B jet engines installed
in a radial pattern on its periphery with jet nozzles that forked into
three exhaust pipes directed towards the thick external ring. Once lift
was achieved, accelerating the engines on one side would cause the
other side to go downwards and the craft followed that direction.
While Coanda’s design was a masterpiece of jet disc technology, only
scale model wind tunnel testing was performed by the end of the war.
Such a machine would not be practical due to the large number of jet
engines required- vital engines that the Me-262 Schwalbe and Ar-234
Blitz desperately needed.
The large machine would have also consumed large amounts of aviation
fuel of which Germany was critically short of by 1944. So, Coanda did
further research into smaller-scale aerodynes while the Reich crumbled
around him.
Postwar, however, Coanda’s work was validated by scientists of the
Allied research services which declared his propulsion system suitable
in 1949.
The Cornell Aeronautical Laboratory in the US during 1952 further added
to Coanda’s credibility when tests performed using his propulsion
system came back with positive results.
The AVRO Canada VZ-9V with a control system based on the “Coanda
Effect” was built in Malton, Canada in 1958. Although a failure as a
GETOL (Ground Effect Take Off and Landing) craft equivalent to a
hovering disc Jeep, the “Coanda Effect’ worked.
Coanda subsequently filed new patents in the 1960s for disc aircraft
and propulsion systems, but none of his craft were ever constructed… or
were they?
Rob Arndt
v-2005/01/03
Cub Driver
>The guy who started it all namely jet engines
>
>and he is a Brit
*Was* a Brit! Sir Frank is dead now.
And note that while he was one of the first to build a practical
turbojet, he wasn't the only one. Hans von Ohain did the same about
the same time, and with the greater interest in Germany for military
applications, von Ohain's jet was the first to fly.
Note also that Frank Whittle was so annoyed by the way his ideas were
handled in Britain that he moved to the United States postwar. I drove
out to meet him in 1992. I forget the town--I think it was Annapolis;
near Baltimore, anyhow--but I'll never forget the address, which was
Windstream Drive.
-- all the best, Dan Ford
email: usenet AT danford DOT net
Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com
Cub Driver
<keit...@kwillshaw.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Neither of these were the inventors of the notion of jet engines
>however. Secondo Campini built a jet engine that used a piston
>engine to compress the gases which were mixed with fuel and
>burned in an afterburner to produce thrust. While less efficient
>than turbojets this was a true jet as it was an air breathing engine
>in which the reactive force of the burning exhaust gases produced thrust.
It was also less efficient than a recip, which it essentially was.
>
>IRC his first engine was used to power a boat in 1932
>and one of his 'thermojets' powered the Caproni CC2
>jet aircraft in 1940
The Caproni was slower than the Spitfire, among other contemporary
aircraft.
>
>Whittle's genius lay in designing and building an engine that
>could be produced with the techniques and materials available
>at the time.
His genius (and von Ohain's) was in adapting the tubojet to aircraft.
As it happens, Whipple's first plan was for a recip/jet like the
Italian job, but he figured out in his head that it wouldn't be any
more efficient than a recip/prop. "Then the penny dropped," as he
said, and he visualized using turbines to power the compression.
He may also have been the first to realize that the higher his engine
went, the faster it could drive the aircraft (up to a point, of
course!).
Everyone was working on jets in 1940, including the U.S., which had a
couple of projects going. They went by the boards when Hap Arnold
acquired the Whittle plans and a sample engine, which he gave to
General Electric to build. Thus it happened that the USAAF had a jet
fighter in the air before Britain did--though not before Germany. (And
it wasn't a very good fighter, since it was built by Bell.)
www.warbirdforum.com/whittle.htm
Keith W
"Rob Arndt" <teut...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1129970044.3...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> The first jet was Henri Coanda's Turbine Aeroplane of 1910 and Coanda
> tried to fly it himself when the tuning of the engine turned into the
> a/c moving forward. Sadly, he crashed it and didn;t have the funds to
> build another one of else there would have been jet biplanes in WW1.
> Coanda was Rumanian and NOT a Brit. His jet was a thermal type but
> still not a prop engine. Payen of France, prior to the war, was working
> on the world's first ramjet powered a/c but the Melot ramjet intended
> for the Payen Flechair had technical problems and had to be designed
> with a prop engine instead.
Well I kinda doubt jet airplanes were likely based on Coanda's
design, propellors were simply more efficient methods
of transmitting power with the engines of the day. Coanda's
aircraft of 1910 while interesting simply didnt fly very well.
Then you descended into pure fantasy
Keith
Keith W
"Cub Driver" <usenet AT danford DOT net> wrote in message
news:ag2kl15c2v30eg8lu...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:54:52 +0100, "Keith W"
> <keit...@kwillshaw.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Neither of these were the inventors of the notion of jet engines
>>however. Secondo Campini built a jet engine that used a piston
>>engine to compress the gases which were mixed with fuel and
>>burned in an afterburner to produce thrust. While less efficient
>>than turbojets this was a true jet as it was an air breathing engine
>>in which the reactive force of the burning exhaust gases produced thrust.
>
> It was also less efficient than a recip, which it essentially was.
>>
>>IRC his first engine was used to power a boat in 1932
>>and one of his 'thermojets' powered the Caproni CC2
>>jet aircraft in 1940
>
> The Caproni was slower than the Spitfire, among other contemporary
> aircraft.
>>
>>Whittle's genius lay in designing and building an engine that
>>could be produced with the techniques and materials available
>>at the time.
>
> His genius (and von Ohain's) was in adapting the tubojet to aircraft.
>
When he and Ohain started there were no turbojets to adapt.
Brown Boveri had built a number of gas turbines but they
were large land based installtions for generating power.
Both Whittle and Ohain realised they could omit some of
the turbine stages and use the exhaust to generate thrust.
Keith
Andrew Robert Breen
tomcervo <tomc...@aol.com> wrote:
>"Whittle's genius lay in designing and building an engine that
>could be produced with the techniques and materials available
>at the time."
>
>And in the end that's the genius that matters. In a similar vein,
>Francis K. Mason noted the difference between the Me-262 and the
>Gloster Meteor. The 262 was rushed into production, bugs and all, as a
>last-ditch expedient by an air force facing imminent defeat; the Meteor
>was phased into production and service in a logical, timely manner, by
>an air force on the verge of victory in no need of desperate meaures,
>and remained in service for more than a decade.
.. and remained in service until last year, in point of fact. The
last Meteor in RAF service (a drone conversion of a F.8) was
retired from service with the closure of RAF Llanaber last
spring. It had been kept in service to calibrate the drone
control system. Hopefully it'll be preserved, as it saw combat
over Korea while in RAAF service.
Martin-Baker Ltd. still use a modifed Meteor "T.7.5" for ejector
seat trials.
--
Andy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth
Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting
money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair)
Keith W
"Andrew Robert Breen" <a...@aber.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:djd6m9$3742$1...@central.aber.ac.uk...
> In article <1129942905....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
>
> .. and remained in service until last year, in point of fact. The
> last Meteor in RAF service (a drone conversion of a F.8) was
> retired from service with the closure of RAF Llanaber last
> spring. It had been kept in service to calibrate the drone
> control system. Hopefully it'll be preserved, as it saw combat
> over Korea while in RAAF service.
>
> Martin-Baker Ltd. still use a modifed Meteor "T.7.5" for ejector
> seat trials.
>
There was an interesting interview with one of the pilots of that
aircraft and one of the reasons for its longevity was stated
to be resistance of the Derwent engines to birdstrike
which is quite common during low altitude ejection tests.
That big old centrifugal compressor is hard to break.
Keith
flybywire
thus FW is the first
m
"Rob Arndt" <teut...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1129970044.3...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
flybywire
M
"Rob Arndt" <teut...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1129970521....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
HENRI COANDA
SS LENTICULAR FLUGSCHEIBE
(1940-1944)
Henri Coanda, a Rumanian aeronautical engineer born in 1886, was living
in Paris at the turn of the century.
By 1910, Coanda had built the worlds first designed jet aircraft- the
bi-plane Turbine Aeroplane which was displayed during an exposition
in Paris.
Coanda, however, missed his critical historic claim to fame while
toying with the aircrafts primitive water-cooled 50 hp four-cylinder
Clerget motor-driven thermal jet turbine which Coanda called a
Air-Reaction Engine. The motor was connected to a gearbox and then to
a compressor which rotated at 4,000 rpm. At the front of the aircraft a
huge Obturator controlled the amount of air entering the compressor.
>From the compressor the air then went to the burning room combustion
chambers located on each side of the fuselage where the engine exhaust
was mixed with fuel and ignited, creating very hot expansion of the
exhaust which exited through tubes and down the steel-plated sides of
the bi-plane producing thrust.
While making slight adjustments while the engine warmed up the thermal
jet started the aircraft rolling forward. Not being a pilot, Coanda
jumped into the jet aircraft anyway and attempted to fly it. He failed
and crashed, being ejected from the aircraft in the process.
Another Turbine Aeroplane was not attempted. However, Coanda noticed
that the flames from the engine exhausts went around the protective
plates and converged again on the fuselage. This led to Coandas famous
physical phenomenon discovery that when a liquid moves at high speed
near a curved surface, it adapts itself to that curvature. This also
applies to air, but the flow speed must be much higher for
effectiveness. It is a suction effect. Thus, the Coanda Effect was
discovered and Coanda himself quickly experimented with it before
filing for three new propulsion patents in 1938.
Patent No. 2,108,652 dated February 15, 1938 concerned airflow
acceleration over the periphery of a concave disc.
Despite this remarkable idea, no official interest came of it until the
German occupation of Paris in 1940. The SS immediately brought Coanda
in and put him to work on designing a large disc to be powered by the
latest in German jet engine technology.
Coanda for his part designed a strange lenticular disc with a diameter
of 20 meters. It was to utilize twelve Jumo 004B jet engines installed
in a radial pattern on its periphery with jet nozzles that forked into
three exhaust pipes directed towards the thick external ring. Once lift
was achieved, accelerating the engines on one side would cause the
other side to go downwards and the craft followed that direction.
While Coandas design was a masterpiece of jet disc technology, only
scale model wind tunnel testing was performed by the end of the war.
Such a machine would not be practical due to the large number of jet
engines required- vital engines that the Me-262 Schwalbe and Ar-234
Blitz desperately needed.
The large machine would have also consumed large amounts of aviation
fuel of which Germany was critically short of by 1944. So, Coanda did
further research into smaller-scale aerodynes while the Reich crumbled
around him.
Postwar, however, Coandas work was validated by scientists of the
Allied research services which declared his propulsion system suitable
in 1949.
The Cornell Aeronautical Laboratory in the US during 1952 further added
to Coandas credibility when tests performed using his propulsion
tomcervo
retired from service with the closure of RAF Llanaber last
spring. It had been kept in service to calibrate the drone
control system. "
A surprise, but hardly a shock, and good to hear. I hope it was retired
with the honors due an old soldier.
"Hopefully it'll be preserved, as it saw combat over Korea while in
RAAF service."
Or used as a practice airframe for the fire crews? Here's hoping it
finds its way to Wanaka.
Steve Hix
"Keith W" <keith...@kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
It didn't actually fly, mostly because Coanda wasn't a pilot.
He got distracted by watching the hot exhaust flow sticking to the
plywood immediately behind the exhaust exit, and failed to note that a
hangar was approaching. When he did, he pulled back on the elevator
control, left the ground, stalled and crashed.
Wasn't a total loss, though. The fluid flow part led to formulation of
the Coanda Effect, and fluidics control systems, including some popular
automatic transmission types. (GM's DynaFlow, IIRC, used it.)
Weatherlawyer
<Moronic crap boogered>
Whittle was a first class fighter pilot in the RAF who was driven to
mental breakdown by British mis-management. His biography is a real eye
opener and a very good read.
He toyed with the idea of jet propulsion when he realised that no
matter how well designed the piston engine got (and I believe it
reached its peak with the Gryphon? used in fighters during WW II) the
potential for height and speed was limited in aircraft using them.
He was thwarted every step of the way in his effort -none of which was
ever for personal gain but purely for the purpose of supplying the UK
with a weapon to defend the realm.
He managed to rewrite pneumodynamics? with a series of equations still
used today in manufacturing jet engines.
Keith W
"Weatherlawyer" <Weathe...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1130026618.5...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> <Moronic crap boogered>
>
> Whittle was a first class fighter pilot in the RAF who was driven to
> mental breakdown by British mis-management. His biography is a real eye
> opener and a very good read.
>
> He toyed with the idea of jet propulsion when he realised that no
> matter how well designed the piston engine got (and I believe it
> reached its peak with the Gryphon? used in fighters during WW II) the
> potential for height and speed was limited in aircraft using them.
>
> He was thwarted every step of the way in his effort -none of which was
> ever for personal gain but purely for the purpose of supplying the UK
> with a weapon to defend the realm.
>
Thats something of an overstatement.
When he joined the RAF he was an apprentice mechanic. It
was the air force that first trained him as a pilot where he did
indeed come second in his class. They then sent him on
an Officers' Engineering Course at RAF Henlow, Bedfordshire in
1932, and then to Peterhouse, Cambridge in 1934 where
he graduated in 1936 with a First in the Mechanical Sciences.
He was a serving officer in the RAF when he came up with the
idea for his engine design and was allowed to patent the idea
which is quite unusual. Normally such patents would belong to
your employer. Indeed he was still a RAF officer when he set up
the company Power Jets which was to manufacture the first engines.
Much has been made of the Government decision to hand jet
production over to Rolls Royce but the simple fact is Whittles
company hadnt the production capacity to make them in volume
and so the air ministry had signed a production contract with Rover.
This relationship simply didt work. Whittle and the Rover management
team simply didnt see eye to eye. They required changes be made
to the design for mass production which Whittle would not agree to.
The arguments became increasingly bitter and vocal. The government
simply couldnt tolerate this during the most critical period of WW2
(1942) and ad deal was arranged in which Rolls TRoyce took over
responsibility for aircraft production.
This had an immediate beneficial effect with Rolls raising the life
of the W2B engine from 37 to 400 hours in the first month while
after years of delay they got the production line up and running
within 6 months.
Whittle continued designing his own jets but now he was having
to compete with Rolls Royce and his new designs the
W.2/500, and later the W.2/700 simply werent as good as the
Derwent and Nene. The result was that Power Jets Ltd was
quite simply losing money and had it not been nationalised
in 1944 it would have gone broke.
Si Frank was an excellent pilot and great engineer but not I
fear a very astute businessman. Note that all this time he
was still a serving officer in the RAF , retiring with the rank
of Air Commodore in the RAF.
I doubt that a serving air force officer today would be allowed to
patent an idea he came up with while in the RAF or USAF
much less be allowed to set up a company to manufacture and
sell it to the government while retaining his commission.
Keith
Cub Driver
<keith...@kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> His genius (and von Ohain's) was in adapting the tubojet to aircraft.
>>
>
>When he and Ohain started there were no turbojets to adapt.
I meant to say "adapting the turbine to aircraft". It was of course a
standard method of generating power, though usually with an exterior
source of energy (a steam boiler).
Cub Driver
<Weathe...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Whittle was a first class fighter pilot in the RAF who was driven to
>mental breakdown by British mis-management. His biography is a real eye
>opener and a very good read.
Rubbish. Whittle was annoyed that the bureaucrats took control of his
"unit" and his patent.
After 1939, he got full support from the guvmint (he was ignored
before that). But he was a hard man to deal with. I don't know when
this mental breakdown took place, but it wasn't during the period of
his eclipse. He was hyped up on nose inhalers, as I recall--real bad
stuff, and that perhaps made him a bit weird.
>He toyed with the idea of jet propulsion when he realised that no
>matter how well designed the piston engine got (and I believe it
>reached its peak with the Gryphon? used in fighters during WW II) the
>potential for height and speed was limited in aircraft using them.
Yes.
>He was thwarted every step of the way in his effort -none of which was
>ever for personal gain but purely for the purpose of supplying the UK
>with a weapon to defend the realm.
Rubbish. Part of Whittle's problem with the guvmint was precisely that
he was running a private company on the side (imagine a USAAF 2nd Lt
getting away with that!) and that he was determined to make money out
of it. Indeed, his failure to get rich on the Whittle Unit was a
principal reason for his coming to the U.S. postwar.
It's always difficult dealing with a bureaucracy, as the folks in New
Orleans recently re-discovered. But Whittle got a scientist-bureaucrat
assigned to him, Harold Roxby Cox, whose sole job was to make life
easy for Whittle. Roxby Cox (by 1992 he was Lord Something) did agree
that Whittle was shabbily treated *postwar* in the honors and payments
he received, though given Britain's parlous financial straits in 1945
they don't seem all that bad. And the U.S. as I recall paid only
$400,000 to Britain for the use of Whittle's work and patents (say $8
million in today's money).
>He managed to rewrite pneumodynamics? with a series of equations still
>used today in manufacturing jet engines.
I don't know enough about it to comment, but the Whittle Unit with its
centrigual flow was pretty much a dead end in turbojet technology. Von
Ohain's axial-flow turbine seems to have been much more promising.
The Unit was on display at NASM about 1992. It looked like it was
soldered up from tin cans, a real Rube Goldberg contraption. That it
not only flew, but (as modified by GE) actually powered the Bell P-59A
was remarkable.
Rob Arndt
disc info from the British who hoped to produce a flight disc outside
of Europe. But eventually the US Army and AF got involved to assess the
technology and progression of just ONE type of German disc design. They
promised a joint-program but then withdrew all support after the
knowledge was gathered and took Dr. Richard Miethe and many of AVRO
Canada's best aviation engineers back to the US where Miethe built the
first US flight disc which was at Wright Patterson and then housed with
captured German discs at MacDill AB in the 1960s (witnessed by two USAF
reporters who gained unauthorized access to the old scrapyard- their
cameras and film were seized from them and the next month's issue of
the USAF in-house airman's magazine which was to feature amazing
prototypes was skipped entirely).
It is amazing that all the many different German engineers postwar
submitted design patents for disc aircraft of VARIOUS configurations
and power sources. If there were no Flugscheiben how can anyone explain
all the US, German, and UK patents by these men? Coanda submitted
several (along with Heinrich Fleissner, Bruno Schwenteit (claiming V-7
design based on Schriever/Miethe WW2 design), Viktor Schauberger,
Alexander Lippisch, Hermann Klaas, and Josef Andreas Epp). Schriever
tried to give his ideas to the US Army but died trying. In his apt was
discovered several disc designs including his original Flugkreisel. The
Hortens and Miethe were prevented from independent patents based on
postwar work for the US on classified discs that are still classified.
The Germans for the record held 30 disc projects during the war
including Heinrich Foche's Fw Rochen circular turboshaft craft and all
of the occult Thule/Vril/SS E-IV discs that were never captured. AEG
also produced a portion of the spherical Foo Fighters (AEG Kugelwaffen)
while the SS E-V Unit built 2 cylindricals.
Italy under SS direction also built one disc at Riva del Garda and Dr.
Giuseppe Belluzo had a design for a disc flying bomb- the
Turboproietti. Japanes-German technology transfer and influence account
for at least one Nakajima disc design and use of German Feuerball and
Kugelwaffen as the Foo Fighters stopped in the ETO once Germany was
defeated but resumed in the PTO due to submarine technology transfers
by Aug 1945.
Bob Lazar's rendering of the Area 51 S-4 Sportsmodel disc is NOT of
alien reverse engineered craft but is based on the Haunebu series of
occult German discs. What was in those secret hangars? No E.T.s, just
German discs and an attempt (if they got one of the EMG types) to
reverse engineer that electromagnetic-mercury (affecting gravity)
powerplant- a Thule Triebwerk 7c.
BTW, German Flugscheiben were to be constructed (along with the Reich's
most secret weapons) at Jonastal S-III (S-3). US development of discs
at Area 51 were at S-4. Hint.
Please don't talk about disc aircraft unless you are prepared to go
through all the programs and timeline. People who define a disc or
circular a/c as just the old Flying Flapjack and Avrocar don't know a
damn thing about terrestrial disc development. And Coanda's lenticular
disc was validated postwar- Miethe went with the radial flow multi-jet
disc and there are photos of the test stand that ran those engines.
That disc had NOTHING to do with the Avrocar which was parked outside
for public display at a time when the USSR was trying to gather
intelligence on Western disc programs- how convenient to park that
craft outside in plain sight! If you believe Avrocar was the best the
West could do... well then, you'd have to be a moron as this was a
GETOL Flying Jeep to be armed with either a recoilless gun or bazooka
on the rear deck!!!
Rob
"Half the fun of writing history is hiding the truth"
-Mal, Serenity
Rob Arndt
Weatherlawyer
Cub Driver wrote:
>
> Part of Whittle's problem with the guvmint was precisely that
> he was running a private company on the side (imagine a USAAF 2nd Lt
> getting away with that!) and that he was determined to make money out
> of it. Indeed, his failure to get rich on the Whittle Unit was a
> principal reason for his coming to the U.S. postwar.
>
in order to repay the loans and investments it had incurred developing
the idea despite all the set-backs he was being subjected to.
I seem to remember that he also sold several designs to the USSR which
became the MIGs a superior aircraft to the Sabre, IIRC. Not that I know
much about either.
Those used in Korea were hampered by Stalin's orders to keep them out
of harms way for fear of losing Russian pilots in regions where the UN
could have to do something about the matter.
And of course the Sabre's engines were just not up to a standard
Whittle would have demanded. I dare say I might be wrong there though.
What were the infamous flame-outs caused by?
Peter Stickney
> On 22 Oct 2005 17:16:58 -0700, "Weatherlawyer"
> <Weathe...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>He toyed with the idea of jet propulsion when he realised that no
>>matter how well designed the piston engine got (and I believe it
>>reached its peak with the Gryphon? used in fighters during WW II)
>>the potential for height and speed was limited in aircraft using
>>them.
>
> Yes.
It had been well understood since the 1920s that propellers weren't
going to be of much help at high speeds. (Height is ictually
irrelevant - one of the highest flying aircraft is NASA's solar
powered RPV (Solar Max, perhaps), which is a monster lightweight
flying wing with electric motor driven propellers. If you're going
to fly slow, props are the way to go.
>>He was thwarted every step of the way in his effort -none of which
>>was ever for personal gain but purely for the purpose of supplying
>>the UK with a weapon to defend the realm.
>
> Rubbish. Part of Whittle's problem with the guvmint was precisely
> that he was running a private company on the side (imagine a USAAF
> 2nd Lt getting away with that!) and that he was determined to make
> money out of it. Indeed, his failure to get rich on the Whittle Unit
> was a principal reason for his coming to the U.S. postwar.
Having an order issued by the Air Ministry that Power Jets would
produce no engines on its own, and then having that same Air Ministry
pass jet production on to Rover, who then spent 2 years botching the
job, would crank my attitude.
> It's always difficult dealing with a bureaucracy, as the folks in
> New Orleans recently re-discovered. But Whittle got a
> scientist-bureaucrat assigned to him, Harold Roxby Cox, whose sole
> job was to make life easy for Whittle. Roxby Cox (by 1992 he was
> Lord Something) did agree that Whittle was shabbily treated
> *postwar* in the honors and payments he received, though given
> Britain's parlous financial straits in 1945 they don't seem all that
> bad. And the U.S. as I recall paid only $400,000 to Britain for the
> use of Whittle's work and patents (say $8 million in today's money).
Some of those bureaucratic difficulties were having the Air Ministry
assign the evaluation of Whittle's proposals to Dr. A.A. Griffith.
Griffith was a competitor to Whittle - sort of like Langley to the
Wright Brothers. Griffith had spent most of the 1930s designing
incredibly baroque and unworkable jet engines, and he consistently
gave Whittle's designs poor evaluations. Whether it was due to
jealousy or Griffith being unable to comprehend that jets could be
that simple, I can't say.
>>He managed to rewrite pneumodynamics? with a series of equations
>>still used today in manufacturing jet engines.
>
> I don't know enough about it to comment, but the Whittle Unit with
> its centrigual flow was pretty much a dead end in turbojet
> technology. Von Ohain's axial-flow turbine seems to have been much
> more promising.
No new equations - the thermodynamics had been understood since the
first Steam Turbines. And a couple of other points - Centrifugals
haven't turned out to be a dead end - take a look at any Jetranger,
or Huey, or Chinook, any of the Business Jets flying on the small
Garret turbofans, or the Garret engines used on the Taiwanese Chink
Kuo fighter. They're still around, and new engines using them are
still being designed.
Von Ohain's engines weren't axial flow - they had centrifugal
compresssors and Radial Infloe turbines, which are essentially a
centrifugal compressor in reverse.
Centrifugals are relatively inexpensive to make, very strong, and
resistant to damage. Their biggest limitations are diameter, which
is much less relevant with the turbofans, and that, in the 1940s, you
really couldn't get more than a 4.5:1 compression ratio from a single
centrifugal impeller. Improvements in our understanding of
transonic and supersonic aerodynamics has allowed a single
centrifugal stage to produce a pressure ration of around 9:1.
> The Unit was on display at NASM about 1992. It looked like it was
> soldered up from tin cans, a real Rube Goldberg contraption. That it
> not only flew, but (as modified by GE) actually powered the Bell
> P-59A was remarkable.
Yes, those burner cans look like they were bashed together by a High
School Metal Shop. But clever thinking and design kept a layer of
cold air between the fire and the metal.
--
Pete Stickney
Java Man knew nothing about coffee.
Peter Stickney
> On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:33:22 +0100, "Keith W"
> <keith...@kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>> His genius (and von Ohain's) was in adapting the tubojet to
>>> aircraft.
>>>
>>
>>When he and Ohain started there were no turbojets to adapt.
>
> I meant to say "adapting the turbine to aircraft". It was of course
> a standard method of generating power, though usually with an
> exterior source of energy (a steam boiler).
There were also Brown-Boverei stationary gas turbines (What we'd call
turboshafts, these days. Broen-Boverei ran their first one around
1913. The were big units, used to generate shaft power for
electrical generators & such. Sort of like the units used in
Electric Utility Topping Plants. (Topping Plants are units which are
brought on line to meet variable demand peaks. Gas Turbines are
often used because they can be brought up from cold in minutes,
rather than hours.)
Allis-Chalmers had a license throughout the 1920s and 1930s to produce
Brown-Boverei gas turbine plants.
Keith W
> Avrocar was a propaganda intended failure. AVRO Canada received their
> disc info from the British who hoped to produce a flight disc outside
> of Europe. But eventually the US Army and AF got involved to assess the
> technology and progression of just ONE type of German disc design. They
> promised a joint-program but then withdrew all support after the
> knowledge was gathered and took Dr. Richard Miethe and many of AVRO
> Canada's best aviation engineers back to the US where Miethe built the
> first US flight disc which was at Wright Patterson and then housed with
> captured German discs at MacDill AB in the 1960s (witnessed by two USAF
> reporters who gained unauthorized access to the old scrapyard- their
> cameras and film were seized from them and the next month's issue of
> the USAF in-house airman's magazine which was to feature amazing
> prototypes was skipped entirely).
In other words there is absolutely no evidence for this fanciful tale
outside the realms of the nutty Ufologist legends.
> It is amazing that all the many different German engineers postwar
> submitted design patents for disc aircraft of VARIOUS configurations
> and power sources. If there were no Flugscheiben how can anyone explain
> all the US, German, and UK patents by these men?
Can you explain why not one disc craft has made it into the air ?
> Coanda submitted
> several (along with Heinrich Fleissner, Bruno Schwenteit (claiming V-7
> design based on Schriever/Miethe WW2 design), Viktor Schauberger,
> Alexander Lippisch, Hermann Klaas, and Josef Andreas Epp).
You forgot Uncle Tom Cobley and All
Keith
Keith W
>
> Cub Driver wrote:
>>
>> Part of Whittle's problem with the guvmint was precisely that
>> he was running a private company on the side (imagine a USAAF 2nd Lt
>> getting away with that!) and that he was determined to make money out
>> of it. Indeed, his failure to get rich on the Whittle Unit was a
>> principal reason for his coming to the U.S. postwar.
>>
>>From what I remember reading he was struggling to keep a company viable
> in order to repay the loans and investments it had incurred developing
> the idea despite all the set-backs he was being subjected to.
>
> I seem to remember that he also sold several designs to the USSR which
> became the MIGs a superior aircraft to the Sabre, IIRC. Not that I know
> much about either.
>
He sold nothing to the USSR, they got several Rolls Royce Nene Engines
from the British Government however.
> Those used in Korea were hampered by Stalin's orders to keep them out
> of harms way for fear of losing Russian pilots in regions where the UN
> could have to do something about the matter.
>
> And of course the Sabre's engines were just not up to a standard
> Whittle would have demanded. I dare say I might be wrong there though.
>
You are, the Sabre used the J47-GE-17B which was a more advanced
axial flow engine
> What were the infamous flame-outs caused by?
>
Usually compressor stall , a problem for all early engines BUT
the J-47 was succesful enough that over 36,000 were built
Keith
Cub Driver
<p-sti...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>There were also Brown-Boverei stationary gas turbines (What we'd call
>turboshafts, these days. Broen-Boverei ran their first one around
>1913. The were big units, used to generate shaft power for
>electrical generators & such.
And they used petroleum for combustion? I didn't know that! I suppose
that would be the direct ancestor of the Whittle Unit, then.
Did the exhaust also drive the turbine that drove the compressor?
And what the devil did they do with the exhaust? Bring it around in a
circle and send it through the compressor?
Cub Driver
<Weathe...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I seem to remember that he also sold several designs to the USSR which
>became the MIGs a superior aircraft to the Sabre, IIRC. Not that I know
>much about either.
I suppose he would have, given the opportunity, but he had a devil of
a time selling anything to anybody! The Air Ministry in the end was
his first and only customer.
I think you will find the ancestor to the MiG in a German design
bureau somewhere. The U.S. didn't snag all the German scientists in
1945 :)
Cub Driver
<p-sti...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>Some of those bureaucratic difficulties were having the Air Ministry
>assign the evaluation of Whittle's proposals to Dr. A.A. Griffith.
>Griffith was a competitor to Whittle
That was before the war. Post September 1939, everything changed.
Reading about Whittle, interviewing him, looking at his engine, and
noticing how turbojets played out postwar, I came to the conclusion
that the Air Ministry did exactly the right thing in letting Rolls
Royce develop the idea. Hard to say. Counterfactual history is a
tricky game. I have a tendency to go the other way, and with Candide
to say that everything is for the best in this best of all possible
worlds.
Without Whittle, Britain (nor the U.S.) wouldn't have had a jet engine
before 1945. But it does seem to me that his engine was a dead end,
and that the future lay with von Ohain, Rolls Royce, and even GE with
its later axial-flow designs.
Cub Driver
<p-sti...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>Von Ohain's engines weren't axial flow - they had centrifugal
>compresssors and Radial Infloe turbines, which are essentially a
>centrifugal compressor in reverse.
>
>Centrifugals are relatively inexpensive to make, very strong, and
>resistant to damage.
Sorry! I didn't read this before posting.
Hard to reconcile that last phrase with the Whittle Unit! It looked
like a cat could destroy it by climbing on it.
I am really out of my depth here, and I resign the discussion to the
engineers :)
Richard Brooks
> Avrocar was a propaganda intended failure.
But SuperCar did it better!
Richard.
--
Celebrate Eid Safely!
Don't leave cooking unattended.
Keith W
"Cub Driver" <usenet AT danford DOT net> wrote in message
news:bnbpl195g579to75e...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 00:16:34 -0400, Peter Stickney
> <p-sti...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>>There were also Brown-Boverei stationary gas turbines (What we'd call
>>turboshafts, these days. Broen-Boverei ran their first one around
>>1913. The were big units, used to generate shaft power for
>>electrical generators & such.
>
> And they used petroleum for combustion? I didn't know that! I suppose
> that would be the direct ancestor of the Whittle Unit, then.
>
> Did the exhaust also drive the turbine that drove the compressor?
>
Yes - see diagram at
http://www.asme.org/history/brochures/h135.pdf
> And what the devil did they do with the exhaust? Bring it around in a
> circle and send it through the compressor?
>
Sent it up the chimney, later models passed the exhaust
either to a steam boiler or through a recuperator
Keith
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
Weatherlawyer
Peter Stickney wrote:
>
> >>He managed to rewrite pneumodynamics? with a series of equations
> >>still used today in manufacturing jet engines.
> >
> > I don't know enough about it to comment, but the Whittle Unit with
> > its centrigual flow was pretty much a dead end in turbojet
> > technology. Von Ohain's axial-flow turbine seems to have been much
> > more promising.
>
> No new equations - the thermodynamics had been understood since the
> first Steam Turbines.
>
distinctly his grief that the the turbine company that was supposed to
be helping him were ripping off his ideas and up to all sorts of
disgusting underhand mismanagement;even using the RAF against him and
every other dirty, stinking trick imaginable.
He was on pick-up pills in the end, suffering nervous breakdown (a
cardinal sin against humanity in those days) and no respite.
Rolls Royce were not interested a couple of engineers sent to look at
his work were unimpressed with him and his engine. One later said it
looked like some sort of kettle or something.
They asked what sort of power output it was giving and he told them "so
and so many pounds of thrust."
Later one of the Rolls Royce men worked that out in horses and got onto
the other asking him if:
"... he had any idea how powerful it was?"
"No idea." (He hadn't even bothered to work it out.)
"It's the same as the Merlin is giving."
"Oh.
....We'd better have another look."
(Or words to that effect.)
flybywire
"Keith W" <keit...@kwillshaw.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1130151...@spool6-east.superfeed.net...
weasel
"There were also Brown-Boverei stationary gas turbines (What we'd call
turboshafts, these days. Broen-Boverei ran their first one around
1913. The were big units, used to generate shaft power for electrical
generators & such."
Keith W wrote: "see diagram at
http://www.asme.org/history/brochures/h135.pdf"
reading of this article reveals that successful use of stationary gas
turbines didn't happen until the mid/late 30s, when Whittle and von
Ohain were already working on their machines.
fascinating bit, though, especially that the 1939 Brown-Boveri unit is
still in use! (at least it was in 1988).
Wes
Keith W
"weasel" <wfmo...@alum.mit.edu> wrote in message
news:1130171069.0...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> peter stickney wrote:
> "There were also Brown-Boverei stationary gas turbines (What we'd call
> turboshafts, these days. Broen-Boverei ran their first one around
> 1913. The were big units, used to generate shaft power for electrical
> generators & such."
>
> Keith W wrote: "see diagram at
> http://www.asme.org/history/brochures/h135.pdf"
>
> reading of this article reveals that successful use of stationary gas
> turbines didn't happen until the mid/late 30s, when Whittle and von
> Ohain were already working on their machines.
>
The principles of recovering energy from expning hot gases
was well understood before then but one of the reasons for
the timing was the introduction of high temperature nickel
alloys in the late 20's/early 30's which made building
such machines practical.
Rob Arndt
First, disc aircraft have been spotted all over the world and
especially near Area 51 (which is a test range for SAPs, a.k.a. "Black
Project" a/c) and many other military facilities and major aircraft
test facilities here and abroad (like your Bae facilities).
Second, YOU have no proof that military disc aircraft have NOT flown;
to the contrary, eyewitness accounts and radar confirmations over
military facilities and airspace has already been confirmed many times
over. Towns and cities near those areas also report the machines
because early discs used the German celestial guidance systems which
were hard to control (hence the drift over public places) until full
IGS came along...
Third, the German engineers patents are all real and recorded much like
the Lockheed patents that resemble claimed disc aircraft spotted from
the 1960s forward (same with Aurora/Sentinel).
Fourth, why the continued classification by the USAF of German disc
projects 60 yrs later? FOIA documents from 1995 obtained by Jim Wilson
proved the USAF admitted the existence of the German craft but would
not specify the manufacturer, type, dates, dimensions, powerplants, and
any photgraphic or film evidence. Their words, "they existed but were
highly unstable". WTF kind of description is that? And WHY are the
files still classified until 2020?
Time will prove you wrong. But already there is ample evidence of the
craft- the entire rush to develop a disc aircraft immediately after WW2
by Britain, US, and USSR and the work done in Canada (of which there
were 16 disc designs, not one) not to mention the immediate
classification of such projects, some of which have been revealed
today- especially Lockheed's and NASA's designs.
What you are complaining about is the USAF and other US agencies not
providing evidence of prototype craft and/or flying craft that may be
operational. Your argument should be with them since they admitted the
Germans had them in 1995- which flies right in your face since you
can't believe it and don;t want to believe it because it destroys your
UK Whittle BS and the story of the Meteor (which was inferior to the
Me-262 until after WW2 when it was improved upon like the P-80 shooting
Star). Germany was way ahead in aviation technology and when the EMG
craft ever are revealed then the whole aviation records books need a
total revision. Same for the space program if a photo shows up on one
of the captured Andromeda Gerat Raumschiffen by the US Army in 1945.
There is no such thing as historical revisionism when official history
written by the victors is disproven by real events that took place with
documentation. It's called truth, not revision.
That's why I've added a SIG, it's relevent...
Steve Hix
"Weatherlawyer" <Weathe...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Cub Driver wrote:
> >
> > Part of Whittle's problem with the guvmint was precisely that
> > he was running a private company on the side (imagine a USAAF 2nd Lt
> > getting away with that!) and that he was determined to make money out
> > of it. Indeed, his failure to get rich on the Whittle Unit was a
> > principal reason for his coming to the U.S. postwar.
> >
> >From what I remember reading he was struggling to keep a company viable
> in order to repay the loans and investments it had incurred developing
> the idea despite all the set-backs he was being subjected to.
>
> I seem to remember that he also sold several designs to the USSR which
> became the MIGs a superior aircraft to the Sabre, IIRC. Not that I know
> much about either.
Somehow you have managed to confuse Whittle with the British government.
Neat trick.
Keith W
> Keith,
>
> First, disc aircraft have been spotted all over the world
So has Santa Claus
> and
> especially near Area 51 (which is a test range for SAPs, a.k.a. "Black
> Project" a/c) and many other military facilities and major aircraft
> test facilities here and abroad (like your Bae facilities).
> Second, YOU have no proof that military disc aircraft have NOT flown;
I have no proof that Santa doesnt exist either
> to the contrary, eyewitness accounts and radar confirmations over
> military facilities and airspace has already been confirmed many times
> over. Towns and cities near those areas also report the machines
> because early discs used the German celestial guidance systems which
> were hard to control (hence the drift over public places) until full
> IGS came along...
> Third, the German engineers patents are all real and recorded much like
> the Lockheed patents that resemble claimed disc aircraft spotted from
> the 1960s forward (same with Aurora/Sentinel).
There still arent any sat on the Tarmac at RAF Wittering or
at Lakenheath.
> Fourth, why the continued classification by the USAF of German disc
> projects 60 yrs later? FOIA documents from 1995 obtained by Jim Wilson
> proved the USAF admitted the existence of the German craft but would
> not specify the manufacturer, type, dates, dimensions, powerplants, and
> any photgraphic or film evidence. Their words, "they existed but were
> highly unstable". WTF kind of description is that? And WHY are the
> files still classified until 2020?
Bureaucratic inertia. To be declassified files have to be checked
and signed off. Its easier not to bother. I've personally
been made to sign for 'classified' material that was available
in the local library. Nobody ever took it off the list.
> Time will prove you wrong. But already there is ample evidence of the
> craft- the entire rush to develop a disc aircraft immediately after WW2
> by Britain, US, and USSR and the work done in Canada (of which there
> were 16 disc designs, not one) not to mention the immediate
> classification of such projects, some of which have been revealed
> today- especially Lockheed's and NASA's designs.
So they've had 6 decades - where are they all ?
> What you are complaining about is the USAF and other US agencies not
> providing evidence of prototype craft and/or flying craft that may be
> operational. Your argument should be with them since they admitted the
> Germans had them in 1995- which flies right in your face since you
> can't believe it and don;t want to believe it because it destroys your
> UK Whittle BS and the story of the Meteor (which was inferior to the
> Me-262 until after WW2 when it was improved upon like the P-80 shooting
> Star). Germany was way ahead in aviation technology and when the EMG
> craft ever are revealed then the whole aviation records books need a
> total revision.
Yep they were so far ahead they lost the air war.
> Same for the space program if a photo shows up on one
> of the captured Andromeda Gerat Raumschiffen by the US Army in 1945.
> There is no such thing as historical revisionism when official history
> written by the victors is disproven by real events that took place with
> documentation. It's called truth, not revision.
> That's why I've added a SIG, it's relevent...
>
Oh puleeze even by your standards this one is REALLY daft.
Space Nazis invade Texas - wasnt that a 50's B movie ?
Keith
M. J. Powell
Arndt <teut...@aol.com> writes
>Avrocar was a propaganda intended failure. AVRO Canada received their
>disc info from the British who hoped to produce a flight disc outside
>of Europe.
How do you know the British intentions when giving the gen to Canada?
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
Rob Arndt
Aug 24, 1939 followed by an official test flight Aug 27, 1939- just
before WW2 started.
Whittle and Ohain were on the same paths but Germany got the "engine"
into an aircraft and flew it first.
Rob Arndt
http://www.netowne.com/naziufos/boblee/
>From my own book (compiled from German sources):
ANDROMEDA-GERAT (ANDROMEDA DEVICE)
(1943-1945)
The ultimate dream and driving purpose of the Vril Gesellschaft
originated by psychic mediums Maria Orsic, Sigrun, and Traute (known as
the Vril Chefin, or bosses) was to achieve space flight by any means
possible to reach the Aldebaran system in the Taurus Constellation- 68
light years from earth.
To accomplish this required two things; first, to translate a series of
psychic images of a flight machine received by Maria Orsic since 1919
and secondly, to collaborate with other occult groups that could
finance such an endeavor once the images were deciphered.
For Vril, a Society formed by women based on metaphysics, the thought
and act of joining with other powerful male occult groups was almost
unthinkable. Yet in 1919 Vril met with Thule and DHvSS members in an
effort to obtain funding for their vision by 1921.
Thule had the most influence and financial resources to fund such a
project so an agreement was reached to join Societies in an effort to
build the strange machine which became known as the
“Jenseitsflugmaschine”, or “Otherworld flight machine".
Under the code letters J-F-M the machine was constructed in secret in
Munich. It was constructed in 1922 in a barn and rolled out into a
field for channeled flight testing. Despite two years at attempting to
achieve channeled flight through high powered frequency field
oscillations produced by strong electromagnetic forces within the
craft, the occultists could not open what they termed a “white hole” in
space/time and pass through, reaching the Aldebaran system and the
Sumeran aliens that had contacted them.
Professor W.O. Schumann led the JFM project but decided to scrap all
research in 1924. The JFM was hurriedly dismantled and sent to Augsburg
for storage at Messerscmitt’s facility where it was either destroyed or
later moved up to Peenemunde and reassembled for further study. No one
can confirm either.
Yet not all the research was in vain. Professor Schumann managed to
develop a levitator unit from it along with practical experience with
generating increasingly intensified electromagnetic fields.
Nine years later in 1933, Adolf Hitler ( a Thule member himself and
occultist) became chancellor in Germany. This gave both the Thule and
Vril Gesellschafts a second chance to further develop their craft with
a state approved RFZ (RundFlugZueug, or Round Aircraft) program also
led by Professor Schumann.
The program started in 1937 and produced seven models. Himmler’s SS had
already become involved with the Thule Haunebu development program in
1935 before the RFZ series began. In 1939 the SS had used Hans Coler's
adapted gravitic battery and the applied ideas of Tesla to come up
with a revolutionary new engine pioneered by Thule- the Thule Triebwerk
(also known as a Tachyonator-7). Vril also perfected the SM-Levitator
and invented their own Triebwerk (Thrustwork) in 1941 with the RFZ-7.
This brought about the abandonment of the RFZ series and introduced the
Haunebu and Vril series of craft.
The Haunebu I, briefly listed as an RFZ design was dropped in 1939 and
the RFZ-7 was re-designated Vril 1 Jager (Hunter) in 1941. Both
Societies them came under control of the SS E-IV (Entwicklungsstelle 4)
Unit in 1941 under Hitler‘s order that all secret societies be banned.
This unit was the technical branch of the SS which would be tasked with
developing alternative energies. Not only did this include alternative
power through synthetic fuels but also with generating power fields
that could be used in war. Thus, the occult discs were seen as a
potentially rewarding war weapons.
Of course Thule and Vril went along with the SS despite their intention
of only producing a Raumschiff (Spaceship). Like Von Braun, who also
envisioned powered space flight with the A-series rockets, the
Societies kept pioneering their own craft with full knowledge that any
of the discs might be made into a war weapon at any time.
Fortunately, both types of discs were incredibly complex and difficult
to control in flight. A special celestial navigation system built by
both Siemens and AEG had to be developed to fly the machines which at
first could only make turns of 22.5, 45, and 90 degrees. Control was
only possible through Magnetic Field Shifting using Impulsers that
transferred power to different parts of the electromagnetic rings
rapidly, forcing very violent rotating electromagnetic fields inside
the craft to move accordingly, changing instant direction of the craft.
Maximum velocities in these craft proved to be a problem as well and
required special SS metallurgists (some called them modern Alchemists)
to create a heat-resistant armor called Victalen that could withstand
speeds of well over 7,000 km/hr!
With both the Haunebu and Vril craft reaching their full potential by
1943/1944 it was decided that Vril would once again attempt to build a
functioning Raumschiff; but this time, it would be built by the SS with
all the resources of the SS state-within-a-state, including slave labor
and safe facilities. Due to the immensity of this project a special
unit was formed to build just this type- the SS E-V (E-5) Unit.
The Raumschiff was to be called the Andromeda-Gerat (Andromeda Device).
Work on two of these massive 139 meter long and 30 meter diameter
“flying cigars” probably began with great effort in early 1943 in above
ground heavily camouflaged shelters similar to that of the old Zeppelin
hangars. These craft were designed to hold both a Haunebu II or IV disc
in one large bay with two other smaller Vril 1 or 2 discs in a
secondary bay- both accessed from the side of each craft. Each craft
was to be crewed by 130 and were to be armored with a quadruple layered
Victalen hull. The E-V unit nicknamed them as male and female “Freyr”
and “Freya” after the old Norse God and Goddess.
The propulsion systems located at both the fore and aft sections of the
Andromeda craft would be beyond the last Haunebu-type Thule Tachyonator
7c drive. These craft were to have four massive power units, two
Tachyonator 11 at the front and two at the rear with four additional
large SM-Levitator units located in pairs on the top and bottom of each
craft which sat on a series of large underbody skids to support the
massive weight. It is generally assumed that those engines were of the
same EMG (Electro-Magnetic-Gravitic) type but other Allied Intelligence
officers believe that they might have been photonic based on witness
accounts of one large craft flying with a massive bright light source
emitted from the rear. Thule might have simply used the Tachyonator
term to describe an evolution of energy drives that might have varied
in the latter models. Although designed as an armed vessel with
provision for five turrets armed with powerful KSK (KraftStrahlKanone,
or Strong Ray Cannon) it is doubtful that any armament actually made it
onto either of the two prototypes under construction.
When the US Army came upon one of the uncompleted machines in 1945 the
craft was first mistaken as some sort of radio tower due to the strange
antennas protruding from the craft. The immense size of the uncompleted
machine didn’t reveal its purpose until someone actually climbed up on
top of it and immediately spotted a cockpit with very thick glass that
was shattered. The semi-completed craft painted gray with no markings
was heavily damaged as the Germans retreated, taking with them all of
the prototype’s sensitive navigation equipment and the strange
propulsion system. This caused damage to the craft except for the two
open exposed bays- which were empty of any Haunebu or Vril discs.
There is also compelling evidence from the Germans themselves based on
an account from Sonderburo 13 (Special Bureau 13), created by the
Luftwaffe to “officially” investigate strange aerial phenomenon over
the Reich but “unofficially” to keep reports of strange German disc
development away from the Allies through deliberate disinformation.
Since the German secret craft were flying both in daylight and at night
they were bound to be seen by civilians and Luftwaffe pilots alike.
Sonderburo 13’s primary mission was to make sure the sightings were
covered-up at all cost. Unaware of the SS Thule and Vril craft, a
Me-262 pilot witnessed one of the Andromeda craft in flight. This is
how Sonderburo 13 reported the incident:
“On September 29, 1944, at 10:45 a.m., a test pilot was trying out a
new Messerschmitt jet, ME 262 Schwalbe, when his attention was suddenly
caught by two luminous points situated on his right. He shot at full
speed in that direction and found himself face to face with a
cylindrical object, more than three hundred feet long with some
openings along its side, and fitted with long antennae placed in front
up to about halfway along its length. Having approached within about
1,500 feet of the craft the pilot was amazed to see that it was moving
at a speed of more than 1,200 m.p.h.”
Photos seem to indicate that the other prototype “Freya“, or one
similar to it, was completed and flew sometime in 1944/1945. Probably
the same craft mentioned by Sonderburo 13 flight testing in 1944.
The exotic craft was designed for a speed of 300,000 km/hr! If one did
escape in March 1945, that one most likely had the Vril Chefin aboard
and achieved channeled flight. Their final destination? The Aldebaran
system.
Rob Arndt
v-2005/01/10
Rob Arndt
the SS were usually shot by the Americans and Russians over atrocities
committed against the Allies at Malmedy and in the Motherland.
Almost the entire SS Technical Branch and the occult Thule and Vril
Gesellschafts "disappeared" out of Germany in March/April 1945. They
burned and destroyed as much as they could but the British had been
tracking them through MI5s own Occult Bureau since before the war. From
S.O.E. MI5 enlisted "Wraiths" to stalk the Germans in the South
Atlantic, Tierra del Feugo island, the Falklands, and establish a
presence in Antarctica to spy on Neu Schwabenland and Base 211. Not
much is known about these secret missions but the Germans on the
Falklands were captured and many U-boats operating in the South
Atlantic along with Raiders were sunk as they provided disc and mercury
supplies (not to mention colonists from the Volksdeutsche in the
Ukraine) from Germany to Base 211.
The British got some technical information on the discs and other SS
alternative fuel sources, radical turbine engines, and microwave field
equipment (for interfering with Allied a/c engines). They even got Hans
Coler postwar to build a free energy gravitic battery (the
Magnetstromapparat) that was turned into a converter for the SS discs.
It was first pioneered for the Kreigsmarine as a U-boat battery.
You can read about it in the British BIOS Reports which also confirm
German disc experimentation. Something Keith Willshaw avoids talking
about. He still won't even admit MI5 had an Occult Bureau which is
fact. Check out MI5s postwar emblem and you will see the all-seeing-eye
of the Illuminati atop the pyramid shape. It has been removed in more
recent times, but they were into the occult just as much as the Germans
were.
The problem postwar is that the British won, but were poor and could
not afford to develop this type of craft in the UK, especially when the
USSR was already spying on the West. They too got some disc information
but Germany was wise to destroy all the discs that were at Prag-Kbley
aerodrome. This destroyed all the BMW Flugelrads and Schriever's
Flugkreisel. The Russians obtained a few of Schauberger's Repulsin
discoid motors and captured Klaus Otto Habermohl who worked on the
Flugkreisel Projekt. Neither of these produced a working disc for the
Russians but Andreas Epp crossed over from the Western Sector into the
GDR and gave them his Omega Diskus plan. The Russians built a
lower-class type of the design which flew in 1950 as the Pirna Disc-
the place in the GDR where it was manufactured. It was to be used as a
spy craft but the Russians lost interest after it crashed. Epp begged
them to develop his other disc design- the Flying Target, but the
refused... so he went back to the West in 1956 and reported on his disc
there. The Americans weren't interested as Miethe from AVRO Canada was
already the target for US disc development along with Schauberger. But
Schauberger refused to cooperate and had his work stolen from him by a
US consortium. He died shortly therafter while Miethe built the first
US disc of 40m at Wright Patterson (which was later stored at MacDill).
Tank Fixer
on 24 Oct 2005 18:10:13 -0700,
Rob Arndt teut...@aol.com attempted to say .....
> The ultimate dream and driving purpose of the Vril Gesellschaft
> originated by psychic mediums Maria Orsic, Sigrun, and Traute (known as
> the Vril Chefin, or bosses) was to achieve space flight by any means
> possible to reach the Aldebaran system in the Taurus Constellation- 68
> light years from earth
JHC
Do you stand outside waiting for meteor showers so you can ascend ????
Gezz..
--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.
Keith W
>From Robert Lee's book, "Relics of the Third Reich" and online:
http://www.netowne.com/naziufos/boblee/
>From my own book (compiled from German sources):
> ANDROMEDA-GERAT (ANDROMEDA DEVICE)
> (1943-1945)
> The ultimate dream and driving purpose of the Vril Gesellschaft
> originated by psychic mediums Maria Orsic, Sigrun, and Traute (known as
> the Vril Chefin, or bosses) was to achieve space flight by any means
> possible to reach the Aldebaran system in the Taurus Constellation- 68
> light years from earth.
Its very nice that your institution allows the inmates access to
the internet.
Keith
Keith W
> You can read about it in the British BIOS Reports which also confirm
> German disc experimentation. Something Keith Willshaw avoids talking
> about.
I am too busy laughing hysterically
> He still won't even admit MI5 had an Occult Bureau which is
> fact. Check out MI5s postwar emblem and you will see the all-seeing-eye
> of the Illuminati atop the pyramid shape. It has been removed in more
> recent times, but they were into the occult just as much as the Germans
> were.
Sure they were , pats loony on head.
PS the MI5 emblem is
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/uk/mi5/crest.gif
MI5 was spectacularly successful during WW2 capturing every
German agent who tried to infiltrate the UK and turning a good many
of them, this operation was called 'Double Cross' and allowed
the British to feed the Germans disinformation when required
and have it believed implicitly.
Their operatives have been nicknamed 'spooks' but the
supernatural was not actually involved, just guile, deception
and ruthlessness.
Keith
Andreas Parsch
>>From Robert Lee's book, "Relics of the Third Reich" and online:
> http://www.netowne.com/naziufos/boblee/
>
>>From my own book (compiled from German sources):
>
> ANDROMEDA-GERAT (ANDROMEDA DEVICE)
> (1943-1945)
>
> [_very_ bad sci-fi snipped ...]
Whoever made this up must be laughing their ass off seeing that a
loony like you actually thinks it's _real_!
Weatherlawyer
Keith W wrote:
>
> MI5 was spectacularly successful during WW2 capturing every
> German agent who tried to infiltrate the UK and turning a good many
> of them, this operation was called 'Double Cross' and allowed
> the British to feed the Germans disinformation when required
> and have it believed implicitly.
>
> Their operatives have been nicknamed 'spooks' but the
> supernatural was not actually involved, just guile, deception
> and ruthlessness.
>
German training rather than spectacularly good British
counter-espionage.
Despite Anglo-American attempts to entertain us with propaganda to the
contrary, the facts are that British security has always been a joke.
Now for goodness sake, end the subject before someone mentions Homeland
Security. <Oops!>
Stephen Harding
> "Rob Arndt" <teut...@aol.com> wrote in message
>> Same for the space program if a photo shows up on one
>>of the captured Andromeda Gerat Raumschiffen by the US Army in 1945.
>>There is no such thing as historical revisionism when official history
>>written by the victors is disproven by real events that took place with
>>documentation. It's called truth, not revision.
>>That's why I've added a SIG, it's relevent...
>
> Oh puleeze even by your standards this one is REALLY daft.
>
> Space Nazis invade Texas - wasnt that a 50's B movie ?
So how do you explain that the residents of Beta Gamma 5 in
the Andromeda neighborhood speak German?
SMH
Keith W
"Stephen Harding" <smhar...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:nLn7f.7915$%A1.390@trndny01...
They were Amish wanting to REALLY get away from it all, the
horse drawn buggies and 19th century dress are the
giveaway.
Joachim Schmid
>>So how do you explain that the residents of Beta Gamma 5 in
>>the Andromeda neighborhood speak German?
>
> They were Amish wanting to REALLY get away from it all, the
> horse drawn buggies and 19th century dress are the
> giveaway.
ROFL. Now I understand - the Book of Ezekiel in the Bible is their
operator's manual ...
Cheers
Joachim
flybywire
Joachim Schmid
> How do we get from
>
> /Sir Frank Whittle/
> //
> /The guy who started it all namely jet engines/
> ...
> to
>
> > >>So how do you explain that the residents of Beta Gamma 5 in
> > >>the Andromeda neighborhood speak German?
> > >>...
Well ... Most easily by one of Teuton's flying saucers ... :-))
> *Whoa what planet !!*
You say it!
Cheers
Joachim
Laurence Doering
>
>>From my own book (compiled from German sources):
>
> ANDROMEDA-GERAT (ANDROMEDA DEVICE)
> (1943-1945)
>
> The ultimate dream and driving purpose of the Vril Gesellschaft
> originated by psychic mediums Maria Orsic, Sigrun, and Traute (known as
So were these Vril mediums all female? My pocket German dictionary
has "Chefs" as the plural for "Chef", not "Chefin". If my memory
serves, "Chefin" would be correct for a singular female boss, but
you'd need the plural ("Vril Chefinnen", maybe?) for more than one
of them. Was one of the mediums superior to the other two or
something?
ljd
ianpa...@gmail.com
>supernatural was not actually involved, just guile, deception
>and ruthlessness.
And Ultra, Alan Turing and Colossus. Remember "Die Radstellung ist" the
wheel positions were set using plain German. In fact the Germans proved
themselves to be spectacularly incompetant in the intelligence field.
M. J. Powell
Arndt <teut...@aol.com> writes
>The British got the most technical information on the SS discs because
>the SS were usually shot by the Americans and Russians over atrocities
>committed against the Allies at Malmedy and in the Motherland.
>Almost the entire SS Technical Branch and the occult Thule and Vril
>Gesellschafts "disappeared" out of Germany in March/April 1945. They
>burned and destroyed as much as they could but the British had been
>tracking them through MI5s own Occult Bureau since before the war.
Wouldn't it have been MI6 instead of MI5?
> From
>S.O.E. MI5 enlisted "Wraiths" to stalk the Germans in the South
>Atlantic, Tierra del Feugo island, the Falklands, and establish a
>presence in Antarctica to spy on Neu Schwabenland and Base 211. Not
>much is known about these secret missions but the Germans on the
>Falklands were captured and many U-boats operating in the South
>Atlantic along with Raiders were sunk as they provided disc and mercury
>supplies (not to mention colonists from the Volksdeutsche in the
>Ukraine) from Germany to Base 211.
>The British got some technical information on the discs and other SS
>alternative fuel sources, radical turbine engines, and microwave field
>equipment (for interfering with Allied a/c engines).
How could microwave radiation interfere with I/C engines if the airborne
radar did not? The field intensity from airborne radar would have been
millions of times greater than anything projected at the aircraft.
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
Rob Arndt
Harry Andreas
<mi...@pickmere.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> How could microwave radiation interfere with I/C engines if the airborne
> radar did not? The field intensity from airborne radar would have been
> millions of times greater than anything projected at the aircraft.
All other B.S. aside, read the article in AW&ST recently on microwave
weapons and the crossover from radar.
--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur
tomcervo
Geeze, it's on the 'Net so it MUST be true!
vincent p. norris
>contrary, the facts are that British security has always been a joke.
If even half of what I've read over the past 40-50 years is true, the
Brits pulled off some astonishingly clever and successful intelligence
operations.
vince norris
>
>Now for goodness sake, end the subject before someone mentions Homeland
>Security. <Oops!>
That's not a joke; it's a farce.
vince norris
Peter Stickney
> So were these Vril mediums all female? My pocket German dictionary
> has "Chefs" as the plural for "Chef", not "Chefin". If my memory
> serves, "Chefin" would be correct for a singular female boss, but
> you'd need the plural ("Vril Chefinnen", maybe?) for more than one
> of them. Was one of the mediums superior to the other two or
> something?
But - if one of the Mediums was superior, wouldn't that mean that she
was no longer a Medium, but a Superlative?
Or would the others be Lessers?
--
Pete Stickney
Java Man knew nothing about coffee.
Peter Stickney
> On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:54:52 +0100, "Keith W"
> <keit...@kwillshaw.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Neither of these were the inventors of the notion of jet engines
>>however. Secondo Campini built a jet engine that used a piston
>>engine to compress the gases which were mixed with fuel and
>>burned in an afterburner to produce thrust. While less efficient
>>than turbojets this was a true jet as it was an air breathing engine
>>in which the reactive force of the burning exhaust gases produced
>>thrust.
>
> It was also less efficient than a recip, which it essentially was.
>>
>>IRC his first engine was used to power a boat in 1932
>>and one of his 'thermojets' powered the Caproni CC2
>>jet aircraft in 1940
>
> The Caproni was slower than the Spitfire, among other contemporary
> aircraft.
>>
>>Whittle's genius lay in designing and building an engine that
>>could be produced with the techniques and materials available
>>at the time.
>
> His genius (and von Ohain's) was in adapting the tubojet to
> aircraft.
>
> As it happens, Whipple's first plan was for a recip/jet like the
> Italian job, but he figured out in his head that it wouldn't be any
> more efficient than a recip/prop. "Then the penny dropped," as he
> said, and he visualized using turbines to power the compression.
>
> He may also have been the first to realize that the higher his
> engine went, the faster it could drive the aircraft (up to a point,
> of course!).
>
> Everyone was working on jets in 1940, including the U.S., which had
> a couple of projects going. They went by the boards when Hap Arnold
> acquired the Whittle plans and a sample engine, which he gave to
> General Electric to build. Thus it happened that the USAAF had a jet
> fighter in the air before Britain did--though not before Germany.
> (And it wasn't a very good fighter, since it was built by Bell.)
Minor correction, Dan. The U.S. projects didn't get abandoned when
the Arnold Mission brought back the Whittle Unit. At that time,
Westinghouse was developing its own series of axial jet designs,
which were quite successful, and quite independent of Whittle's
engines - they ended up producing the J30 (Company Model 19) which
powered the McDonnell FD-1 Phantom, the J32, a very small diameter
turbojet for guided missiles, and the J34, which became the classic
small axial jet on the late 1940s and 1950s. The J34 powered just
about every late '40s Navy fighter, except the F9F, and was used as a
booster engine on P2V Neptunes and various civilian C-119 flavors.
GE had already begun the development of an axial flow turboprop, the
TG-100. This went into production as the T31, and was the prime
powerplant for the Convair XP-81 and Ryan F2R mixed power (Prop &
jet) fighters. GE set up a separate design and development unit for
the Whittle-inspired centrifugal engines. The original folks, after
they got the T31 running in mid 1943 developed their own big axial
engine, the TG-180, which went into production as the J35. This
engine stayed in production through the mid 1950s. The GE
Centrifugal jet team, after crunching out the J31 used on the P-59,
put their efforts into the I-40, which went into production as the
J33.
The third project of the initial U.S> Government jet contracts in
1940/41 was a turbofan that was proposed by Allis-Chalmers. It never
ran, as far as I can tell. Allis-Chalmers was later contracted to
build DeHavilland Goblins under license, but only produced about a
half-dozen engines.
Pratt & Whitney, Lockheed, and Northrop all had their own
company-funded projects. The P&W and Lockheed designs were quite
ambitious, and the companies never had enough resources to spare.
Northrop's big turboprop ran successfully, but never found an
application.
Keith W
Thats the SIS or MI6 emblem. MI5 deals solely with
Intel in the UK
> Still laughing, Keith?
>
>
Oh yes
Keith
Keith W
"tomcervo" <tomc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1130289544.6...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Its right but Rob is wrong as usual, as the URL suggests
SIS aka MI6 deal with external Intelligence activities
not MI5
Keith
Rob Arndt
Keith is a moron. Notice that the pyramid emblem corners are M-I-V (or
MI5), NOT MI6! And this was their emblem in the 50s-70s.
Prior to WW2 MI5, NOT MI6, had an Occult Bureau that investigated
paranormal activity sponsored by other nations- especially Germany
since the Nazi Party orginated directly from the Thule Gesellschaft and
adapted their Black Sun symbol into the Hakenkreuz. From the NSDAP came
Hitler's bodyguard the SS and the SS had their own occult religious
Order of the Black Sun and Ahnenerbe (Ancestral Heritage Branch, aka
"Occult Bureau").
The Nazis sent SS expeditions to Tibet and both poles. The pre-war
expedition to Antarctica and subsequent reclaiming of Queen Maud Land
as Neu Schwabenland was NOT civilian. Notice on the official emblem for
the expedition the oak leaves- it was a military scouting mission for
Base 211 construction in the Muhlig-Hoffman mountains.
The occult war during WW2 was operational with the Germans and US/UK.
US captured German soldiers on Greenland while UK captured them on the
Falklands and spied on Base 211. 2,500 Waffen SS soldiers from the
Ukraine were sent to Neu Schwabenland so there was little the Wraith
commandos could do in Antartica except establish a base and spy on the
Germans. Postwar Admiral Byrd and a military task force in 1947 tried
to attack the German Base/colony and failed, returning home in weeks
instead of the 8 months of provisions they had plus weaponry aboard and
soldiers. Byrd gave statements to the S American press of conflict with
enemy forces with craft that could fly from pole to pole at incredible
speed. He also wrote about this in his personal diary and there is
substantial film footage/time missing from the official film
photography taken (when Byrd claimed he was contacted by the Germans
and led to a base to observe the colony underground and its
technology). For this, Byrd was later put in a mental hospital on
military command (to shut him up).
When the US wanted to detonate nukes in Antarctica the famous
Washington D.C. UFO formation blitz sighting occured- a warning from
the Nazis. Unofficially, it is claimed that an agreement was made
secretly with Neu Schwabenland in 1958. This was probably a technology
transfer and non-aggression pact. The area is still to this day largely
left alone. The other nations' bases are largely ringed about Neu
Schwabenland and disturbing tales of extreme EM activity under Lake
Vostok suggest something unnatural is going on below the ice. It is
claimed that the German colony is 2 miles down by now and impervious to
any type of attack-even nuclear.
Believe what you want to believe but before condemning someone start
with the Nazi occult history with Thule and work forward
chronologically. Once you get to the Anenerbe, Vril, and their
connections to Canaris and Doenitz the history gets pretty frightening.
Doenitz as Fuhrer only surrendered European Germany; SS General Kammler
did not surrender the German colony at Neu Schwabenland.
Now if only we could go through MI5s files and the USN...
flybywire
any message posted hereafter will self destruct in 5 seconds
People you are getting boring and totally off group
M
"Rob Arndt" <teut...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1130312809.0...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Alan Dicey
others would strike her. After that, she'd be mean.
<runs away, down the middle of the road)
Keith W
"flybywire" <ram...@canoemail.com> wrote in message
news:TzG7f.9106$Ce5....@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...
> As the originator of this original message I hereby consign it to the dump
>
> any message posted hereafter will self destruct in 5 seconds
>
> People you are getting boring and totally off group
>
>
Who died and appointed you God ?
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
<snip>
> When the war started, Coanda was arrested by the SS in Paris where he
> was living and forced to work on a 12 jet disc aircraft- the Coanda
> Lenticular Flugscheiben based on his patent of the Coanda effect on
> concave surfaces which the SS discovered after raiding the patent
> offices of all occupied countries.
Wow, just the same thing you blast the Allies for doing. Amazing,
you use the term "rape" when Allies went after the Nazi technology, but
"raid" when the Nazis did it. After all this time criticizing the Allies
for this will you now do the same with the Nazis?
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
<snip>
>
> "Half the fun of writing history is hiding the truth"
And you do it so well.
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>From Robert Lee's book, "Relics of the Third Reich" and online:
> http://www.netowne.com/naziufos/boblee/
>
>
<snip>
Just think of all the effort real historians could save if they
could just cite themselves. Imagine all the "history" that will be revealed.
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>From Robert Lee's book, "Relics of the Third Reich" and online:
> http://www.netowne.com/naziufos/boblee/
>
>>From my own book (compiled from German sources):
>
>
>>(1943-1945)
>
>
>>The ultimate dream and driving purpose of the Vril Gesellschaft
>>originated by psychic mediums Maria Orsic, Sigrun, and Traute (known as
>>possible to reach the Aldebaran system in the Taurus Constellation- 68
>>light years from earth.
>
>
> Its very nice that your institution allows the inmates access to
> the internet.
>
> Keith
>
>
They need to give the inmates access to apropriate medications.
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
to do it for them. There is a secret ungerground u-boat base built by
the Nazis in Antarctica that has been converted to a beer warehouse.
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
> The older postwar MI5 emblem:
> http://www.bilderberg.org/sis.htm
>
> Still laughing, Keith?
>
> Rob
So triangles indicate occultism? If so are U.S. armoured divisions
occult?
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Richard Brooks
> "flybywire" <ram...@canoemail.com> wrote in message
> news:TzG7f.9106$Ce5....@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...
>
>>As the originator of this original message I hereby consign it to the dump
>>
>>any message posted hereafter will self destruct in 5 seconds
>>
>>People you are getting boring and totally off group
>>
>>
>
>
> Who died and appointed you God ?
>
> Keith
>
I did!
Sir Frank Whittle.
Chris Morton
No, "Plus-Size". : )
--
--
Gun control, the theory that 110lb. women should have to fistfight with 210lb.
rapists.
Chris Morton
says...
>Keith is a moron.
<AndyGriffith>
Mmmmmm, that sure is good irony!
Good on a crisp Ritz cracker!
</AndyGriffith>
Rob Arndt
Most of the "Founding Fathers" were Freemasons and occultists. Ever
checked out the $1 bill backside symbolism? Freemasonry and Illuminati
all the way.
Tank Fixer
on Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:26:27 GMT,
Stephen Harding smhar...@msn.com attempted to say .....
> Keith W wrote:
> > "Rob Arndt" <teut...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> >> Same for the space program if a photo shows up on one
> >>of the captured Andromeda Gerat Raumschiffen by the US Army in 1945.
> >>There is no such thing as historical revisionism when official history
> >>written by the victors is disproven by real events that took place with
> >>documentation. It's called truth, not revision.
> >>That's why I've added a SIG, it's relevent...
> >
> > Oh puleeze even by your standards this one is REALLY daft.
> >
> > Space Nazis invade Texas - wasnt that a 50's B movie ?
>
> So how do you explain that the residents of Beta Gamma 5 in
> the Andromeda neighborhood speak German?
But with a bad French accent..
--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.
Tank Fixer
on Wed, 26 Oct 2005 06:19:12 -0500,
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired B2...@aol.com attempted to say .....
XX-Large...
Tank Fixer
on Wed, 26 Oct 2005 00:27:29 -0400,
Peter Stickney p-sti...@adelphia.net attempted to say .....
> The third project of the initial U.S> Government jet contracts in
> 1940/41 was a turbofan that was proposed by Allis-Chalmers. It never
> ran, as far as I can tell.
It's hard to plow fields at 500 knots....
Tank Fixer
on Wed, 26 Oct 2005 06:06:38 -0500,
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired B2...@aol.com attempted to say .....
> Rob Arndt wrote:
To be a book doesn't it have to be published ???
Tank Fixer
on Wed, 26 Oct 2005 07:42:52 +0100,
Keith W keith...@kwillshaw.demon.co.uk attempted to say .....
Gez, everyone knows the MIB deal with extra terrestrials
Tank Fixer
on Wed, 26 Oct 2005 06:09:21 -0500,
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired B2...@aol.com attempted to say .....
> Keith W wrote:
No NO !
Not access
Just give them the injections....
Richard Brooks
"and most of the truth is that goddamn boring that you'd have to either
hide it or build something new and fanciful that people could believe in."
Richard.
Steve Hix
"Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired" <B2...@aol.com> wrote:
> Rob Arndt wrote:
> <snip>
> >
> > "Half the fun of writing history is hiding the truth"
>
> And you do it so well.
Shouldn't that be *badly*?
Steve Hix
Tank Fixer <paul.deek...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> In article <j6d333-...@adelphia.net>,
> on Wed, 26 Oct 2005 00:27:29 -0400,
> Peter Stickney p-sti...@adelphia.net attempted to say .....
>
> > The third project of the initial U.S> Government jet contracts in
> > 1940/41 was a turbofan that was proposed by Allis-Chalmers. It never
> > ran, as far as I can tell.
>
> It's hard to plow fields at 500 knots....
Then again, there was the P.Z.L. Mielec M-15 "Belphegor", a Polish jet
biplane cropduster.
Just the thing for Ukrainian wheat fields.
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
So what?
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
> In article <nrJ7f.88$0M1.69@dukeread12>,
> on Wed, 26 Oct 2005 06:06:38 -0500,
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired B2...@aol.com attempted to say .....
>
>
>>Rob Arndt wrote:
>>
>>>>From Robert Lee's book, "Relics of the Third Reich" and online:
>>>http://www.netowne.com/naziufos/boblee/
>>>
>>>>From my own book (compiled from German sources):
>>>
>>
>><snip>
>>
>> Just think of all the effort real historians could save if they
>>could just cite themselves. Imagine all the "history" that will be revealed.
>
>
> To be a book doesn't it have to be published ???
>
if one is willing to pay enough. The trick is getting someone to buy a copy.
Paul J. Adam
Weatherlawyer <Weathe...@hotmail.com> writes
>Keith W wrote:
>> MI5 was spectacularly successful during WW2 capturing every
>> German agent who tried to infiltrate the UK and turning a good many
>> of them, this operation was called 'Double Cross' and allowed
>> the British to feed the Germans disinformation when required
>> and have it believed implicitly.
>>
>> Their operatives have been nicknamed 'spooks' but the
>> supernatural was not actually involved, just guile, deception
>> and ruthlessness.
>>
>I think you will find that their success was due to spectacularly bad
>German training rather than spectacularly good British
>counter-espionage.
But these were agents trained by the Third Reich... are you daring to
claim that the Third Reich was less than perfect in any way?
>Despite Anglo-American attempts to entertain us with propaganda to the
>contrary, the facts are that British security has always been a joke.
Nearly, but not quite, as funny as US security. (A particular fact is
known in a British-led HQ for over a month. No leaks. It's communicated
to the US at MNCF-I SECRET. Two days later it's in the New York Times.
Thanks a bunch, guys.)
--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2
Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk
M. J. Powell
<and...@computer.org> writes
>In article <x2vszBI4...@pickmere.demon.co.uk>, "M. J. Powell"
><mi...@pickmere.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> How could microwave radiation interfere with I/C engines if the airborne
>> radar did not? The field intensity from airborne radar would have been
>> millions of times greater than anything projected at the aircraft.
>
>All other B.S. aside, read the article in AW&ST recently on microwave
>weapons and the crossover from radar.
What is AW&ST?
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
Keith W
>
> Keith W wrote:
>> "tomcervo" <tomc...@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:1130289544.6...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>> > >The older postwar MI5 emblem:
>> >>http://www.bilderberg.org/sis.htm
>> >>Still laughing, Keith?
>> >
>> >
>> > Geeze, it's on the 'Net so it MUST be true!
>> >
>>
>> Its right but Rob is wrong as usual, as the URL suggests
>> SIS aka MI6 deal with external Intelligence activities
>> not MI5
>>
>
> Keith is a moron. Notice that the pyramid emblem corners are M-I-V (or
> MI5), NOT MI6! And this was their emblem in the 50s-70s.
Which was of course NOT the period in which WW2 occurred
> Prior to WW2 MI5, NOT MI6, had an Occult Bureau that investigated
> paranormal activity sponsored by other nations- especially Germany
Sure it did
> since the Nazi Party orginated directly from the Thule Gesellschaft and
> adapted their Black Sun symbol into the Hakenkreuz. From the NSDAP came
> Hitler's bodyguard the SS and the SS had their own occult religious
> Order of the Black Sun and Ahnenerbe (Ancestral Heritage Branch, aka
> "Occult Bureau").
> The Nazis sent SS expeditions to Tibet and both poles. The pre-war
> expedition to Antarctica and subsequent reclaiming of Queen Maud Land
> as Neu Schwabenland was NOT civilian. Notice on the official emblem for
> the expedition the oak leaves- it was a military scouting mission for
> Base 211 construction in the Muhlig-Hoffman mountains.
> The occult war during WW2 was operational with the Germans and US/UK.
> US captured German soldiers on Greenland while UK captured them on the
> Falklands and spied on Base 211. 2,500 Waffen SS soldiers from the
> Ukraine were sent to Neu Schwabenland so there was little the Wraith
> commandos could do in Antartica except establish a base and spy on the
> Germans. Postwar Admiral Byrd and a military task force in 1947 tried
> to attack the German Base/colony and failed, returning home in weeks
> instead of the 8 months of provisions they had plus weaponry aboard and
> soldiers.
We've been here before , this is frigging nonsense.
Byrds expedition included NO combat troops , not a single
one and the aircraft transported down there were seaplanes
and DC3's. With the exception of the carrier that ferried
the aircraft there were exactly 2 warships , both Destroyers
that acted as communications relays and less than 200
people landed on the continent most of whom were scientists.
The reason they left is that well know phenomenom - WINTER
What the F**K do you think 2500 soldiers would find to
live on in Antarctica ?
In summer there are seals and penguins in water just ice.
It took a huge logistic effort just to support the small landing
party Admiral Byrd took with him.
Get a bloody grip for heavens sake.
Keith
Tank Fixer
on Wed, 26 Oct 2005 16:52:58 -0500,
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired B2...@aol.com attempted to say .....
> Tank Fixer wrote:
> > In article <nrJ7f.88$0M1.69@dukeread12>,
> > on Wed, 26 Oct 2005 06:06:38 -0500,
> > Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired B2...@aol.com attempted to say .....
> >
> >
> >>Rob Arndt wrote:
> >>
> >>>>From Robert Lee's book, "Relics of the Third Reich" and online:
> >>>http://www.netowne.com/naziufos/boblee/
> >>>
> >>>>From my own book (compiled from German sources):
> >>>
> >>
> >><snip>
> >>
> >> Just think of all the effort real historians could save if they
> >>could just cite themselves. Imagine all the "history" that will be revealed.
> >
> >
> > To be a book doesn't it have to be published ???
> >
> According to teuton it was printed. Anyone can have anything printed
> if one is willing to pay enough. The trick is getting someone to buy a copy.
Oh I know that, my dad wrote one about his growing up in Oklahoma in the early
1930's and had it printed up here locally.
Question is where one can buy Mr Arndt's work of fiction.