Army, Air Force, Navy, Marine casualties, WWII
vincent p. norris
>for us?
>George Z.
OK, here's what I found:
Army, size, 11,260,000, had 318,274 KIA & MIA; 565,861 Wounded
Air Forces, 3,400,000, had 54,700 KIA & MIA; 17,900 Wounded
Navy, 4,183,446, had 62,614 KIA & MIA; 37,778 Wounded
Marines, 669,100, had 24,511 KIA & MIA; 68,207 Wounded
According to my calculator, the losses as percentages were:
KIA&MIA: Army, 2.83%, Air Forces, 1.6%, Navy, 1.5%, Marines, 3.66%
Wounded: Army, 5%, Air Forces, .53%, Navy, 0.9%,Marines,10.2%
So a Marine was more than twice as likely as an AF member to be
killed, and far more likely to be wounded. The AF, for obvious
reasons, had more MIA and MIA than wounded. For somewhat similar
reasons, the Navy had almost twice as many KIA & MIA as wounded.
As already pointed out, and AF air crew member had a far higher chance
than a ground crew member of being killed or wounded. In the same
way, Marine grunt units no doubt had far higher percentage losses than
the Marine Air Wings, composed mostly of ground crews.
And all services had members who never left the United States.
Source: http://www.answers.com/topic/world-war-ii-casualties
Along the way I gathered some prose on Marine ground losses, I'll post
some of it after I do some editing.
vince norris
Lyle
"vincent p. norris" <vp...@psu.edu> wrote in message
news:j15823p64rh4bafig...@4ax.com...
sorry to burst your bubble but. anybody that has done any kind of research
knows that the Merchant Marine had the highest casualties during WW2
http://www.usmm.org/casualty.html
George Z. Bush
"Lyle" <lyle...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:CdYUh.84$MH4...@newsfe02.lga...
claims regarding the Merchant Marines.........the discussion was one concerning
only 8th AF vs. USMC.........nothing more than the comparison was intended or
inferred, at least not by me and I'm the one who started it, AIR.
George Z.
rdkc...@erols.com
> >Vince, how about digging up those comparative USAAF vs. USMC WWII casualty stats
> >for us?
> >George Z.
>
> OK, here's what I found:
>
> Army, size, 11,260,000, had 318,274 KIA & MIA; 565,861 Wounded
> Air Forces, 3,400,000, had 54,700 KIA & MIA; 17,900 Wounded
> Navy, 4,183,446, had 62,614 KIA & MIA; 37,778 Wounded
> Marines, 669,100, had 24,511 KIA & MIA; 68,207 Wounded
>
For the point you seem to be trying to make, you've mixed apples and
oranges in your casualty totals. Counting on all my fingers and
toes . . .
All Navy deaths during WW2, combat and otherwise were 62,614.
US Navy combat deaths were 36,950.
All Marine Corps deaths during WW2, combat and otherwise were 25,596.
US Marine Corps combat deaths were 19,733.
All US Army deaths in WW2, combat and otherwise, including USAAF, were
318,274; All USAAF deaths from that total were 88,119.
US Army combat deaths in WW2, including USAAF, were 234,874; USAAF
combat deaths from that total were 52,173.
I'd suggest that the key number is the battle deaths, not all deaths,
which, at the same time, will allow us to look at the USMM deaths in
context. Thusly:
US Army (non AAF)
Strength: 11,268,000
Battle Deaths: 182,701
Battle Deaths as Percent of Strength: 1.62% (1 in 62)
USAAF
Strength: 3,400,000
Battle Deaths: 52,173
Battle Deaths as Percent of Strength: 1.53% (1 in 65)
US Army (All)
Strength: 14,668,000
Battle Deaths: 234,874
Battle Deaths as Percent of Strength: 1.60% (1 in 62)
US Navy
Strength: 4,183,466
Battle Deaths: 36,950
Battle Deaths as Percent of Strength: 0.88% (1 in 113)
US Marine Corps
Strength: 669,100
Battle Deaths: 19,733
Battle Deaths as Percent of Strength: 2.95% (1 in 34)
US Coast Guard
Strength: 241,093
Battle Deaths: 572
Battle Deaths as Percent of Strength: 0.24% (1 in 421)
US Naval Services (USN, USMC, USCG)
Strength: 5,093,639
Battle Deaths: 56,145
Battle Deaths as Percent of Strength: 1.12% (1 in 89)
US Merchant Marine (not including Armed Guards which are in the US
Naval Services total, above)
Strength: 285,000 (estimated)
Battle Deaths: 9,521 (8,421 killed plus a reported estimate of 1,100
DOW)
Battle Deaths as Percent of Strength: 3.34% (1 in 30)
And just for the sake of argument
USAAF ETO
Strength: 485,000 (estimated, peak strength was 453,329 in April
1945)
Battle Deaths: 24,911
Battle Deaths as Percent of Strength: 5.14% (1 in 19)
R
George Z. Bush
Thank you for reinforcing the accuracy of my original premise, i.e.-that you'd
have been better off fighting as a Marine than you'd have been in the skies over
Europe.
George Z.
vincent p. norris
>> knows that the Merchant Marine had the highest casualties during WW2
>> http://www.usmm.org/casualty.html
>There was no bubble to burst, my friend. No one here made any statements or
>claims regarding the Merchant Marines.........the discussion was one concerning
>only 8th AF vs. USMC.........nothing more than the comparison was intended or
>inferred, at least not by me and I'm the one who started it, AIR.
>
>George Z.
I did make a remark in an earlier post that the MM, especially on the
Murmansk run, was very dangerous. I had no numbers.
BTW, an uncle of mine had three ships, oil tankers, torpedoed out from
under him off the Carolina Cost. Don't recall whether I mentioned
that earlier.
vince norris
vincent p. norris
>>
>> Army, size, 11,260,000, had 318,274 KIA & MIA; 565,861 Wounded
>> Air Forces, 3,400,000, had 54,700 KIA & MIA; 17,900 Wounded
>> Navy, 4,183,446, had 62,614 KIA & MIA; 37,778 Wounded
>> Marines, 669,100, had 24,511 KIA & MIA; 68,207 Wounded
>>
>
>For the point you seem to be trying to make, you've mixed apples and
>oranges in your casualty totals. Counting on all my fingers and
>toes . . .
>
>All Navy deaths during WW2, combat and otherwise were 62,614.
>US Navy combat deaths were 36,950.
>
>All Marine Corps deaths during WW2, combat and otherwise were 25,596.
>US Marine Corps combat deaths were 19,733.
I cited the source of my data. Where did you find yours?
vince norris
vincent p. norris
>have been better off fighting as a Marine than you'd have been in the skies over
>Europe.
>
>George Z.
Depends on which numbers are more valid. ((:-))
But "better off" raises new questions!
As I said earlier, I'd much rather have taken my chances in a B-17 or
even a B-24 (although perferably in a P-47 or 51), and come home each
day to good meals, pretty English Girls and a clean bed, than lie in
the mud--and worse-- on a vermin-infested jungle island.
vince norris
Henry J Cobb
> OK, here's what I found:
>
> Army, size, 11,260,000, had 318,274 KIA & MIA; 565,861 Wounded
> Air Forces, 3,400,000, had 54,700 KIA & MIA; 17,900 Wounded
Did you exclude all Air Forces related numbers from the Army counts?
Why not use Korea or Vietnam which had a clear separation between the
USAF and the war fighters?
-HJC
Dave Kearton
Those accomodations may be for the lucky ones. ISTR that most of the
aircrews lived in tents or Nissen huts (with potbelly stoves). Mud was
prevalent during most of the year, as was snow. Pretty English
women would have been in limited supply, although the definition of
'pretty' would vary with how long you've been away from home.
--
Cheers
Dave Kearton
George Z. Bush
>>> sorry to burst your bubble but. anybody that has done any kind of research
>>> knows that the Merchant Marine had the highest casualties during WW2
>>> http://www.usmm.org/casualty.html
>> There was no bubble to burst, my friend. No one here made any statements or
>> claims regarding the Merchant Marines.........the discussion was one
>> concerning only 8th AF vs. USMC.........nothing more than the comparison was
>> intended or inferred, at least not by me and I'm the one who started it, AIR.
>>
>> George Z.
>
> I did make a remark in an earlier post that the MM, especially on the
> Murmansk run, was very dangerous. I had no numbers.
I have little doubt of that.......I don't know what the numbers were, but I do
recall that the Murmansk run was considered to be extremely high risk.
>
> BTW, an uncle of mine had three ships, oil tankers, torpedoed out from
> under him off the Carolina Cost. Don't recall whether I mentioned
> that earlier.
One of my sons in his younger days was a scuba diver and instructor and probably
dove on one or more of those vessels.
George Z.
George Z. Bush
So you prefer a clean corpse to a vermin infested filthy live body. Fair
enough. To each his own..........
(^v^)))))))))
George Z.
Dave Kearton
>>> As I said earlier, I'd much rather have taken my chances in a B-17
>>> or even a B-24 (although perferably in a P-47 or 51), and come home
>>> each day to good meals, pretty English Girls and a clean bed, than
>>> lie in the mud--and worse-- on a vermin-infested jungle island.
>>
>> So you prefer a clean corpse to a vermin infested filthy live body.
>> Fair enough. To each his own..........
>> (^v^)))))))))
>>
>> George Z.
Jeebus George, English girls aren't flash, but they're not THAT bad.
--
Cheers
Dave Kearton
John Carrier
8th AF aircrew was certainly hazardous duty. But if you're going to go
apples/apples in your comparison, I think you need to consider the marines
in the amphibious assault units only.
R / John
rdkc...@erols.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Aww, jeez, Vince, I'm sorry . . .
Let's see . . . the Navy and Marine Corps info is from the Naval
Historical Center; the Army and Army Air Corps casualty info is from
"Army Battle Casualties and Nonbattle deaths on World War II - Final
Report - 7 December 1941-31 December 1946"; info on Merchant Marine
losses is from usmm.org; and ETO info is drawn from both
aforementioned Army Battle Casualties report and from the USAAF
Statistical Summary Digest.
Okay?
What, did you think I made them up?
Ed Rasimus
>Why not use Korea or Vietnam which had a clear separation between the
>USAF and the war fighters?
>
>-HJC
Do you have any idea how offensive that sentence is?
If you check the appendix of "When Thunder Rolled" you'll find a
listing of 101 losses of F-105s during the seven month period that the
book covers. There were five squadrons in theater when that period
started, with 18 aircraft assigned to each. Should I do the math for
you?
Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com
vincent p. norris
>> even a B-24 (although perferably in a P-47 or 51), and come home each
>> day to good meals, pretty English Girls and a clean bed, than lie in
>> the mud--and worse-- on a vermin-infested jungle island.
>
More than one AF WWII vet has told me that's why he joined the AF; and
a numer of Navy vets have said similar things.
We all assume it's the "other guy" who will get killed, so why not
have clean sheets?
vince norris
vincent p. norris
>USAF and the war fighters?
If you come to a thread late, try to find out what it's about.
I second Ed's response to your comment.
vince norris
vincent p. norris
>>
>> vince norris
>>
>
No, but it was a possibility. You know as well as I that a lot of
"fiction" gets published on the net.
I don't know who you are, and you don't know who I am, that's why I
cited my sources.
Maybe you (or I) didn't make them up, but just copied them
carelelssly.
There were enough differences among the data to raise questions.
Anyway, citing sources is simply good practice.
vince norris
George Z. Bush
If truth be known, I was in an infantry ROTC unit in college and, way back then,
before we even got into the war, I had decided that if I was going to have to
fight a war, I'd much rather do it sitting on my ass than knocking myself out on
my blistered feet. Anyway, 26 years and 4,000 hours aloft later, I continue to
marvel at how smart I was when I was just a dumb college boy.
George Z.
John Keeney
> On Tue, 17 Apr 2007 20:09:34 -0700, Henry J Cobb <h...@io.com> wrote:
>
> >Why not use Korea or Vietnam which had a clear separation between the
> >USAF and the war fighters?
>
> >-HJC
>
> Do you have any idea how offensive that sentence is?
Of course he does, Ed. You've been reading his stuff long enough to
know that.
vincent p. norris
>before we even got into the war, I had decided that if I was going to have to
>fight a war, I'd much rather do it sitting on my ass than knocking myself out on
Well, if we're fessing up, I damn near cried when the Army Aviation
Cadet program was shut down just two weeks before my 17th birthday! We
had just beaten the Boche at the Bulge and there were enough pilot
trainees in the pipeline to finish the war.
But the draft went on, and I received Greetings! from the President of
the United States. If they wouldn't let me be a pilot, I was damned if
I was going to be in the Army infantry, so I called the medical
examiner's attention to an an impressive-looking scar from a
high-school accident that had severed the artery in my left thigh.
The artery had been repaired but there was poor circulation in my left
leg, with a weak pulse.
To my great relief, I was declared 4-F. I began college. Then the
Marines began to advertise that one could enlist for only two years,
be guaranteed aviation duty, and have a shot at flight training.
I went down that aftenoon and signed up. This time I told a few white
lies about the "superficial scar" on my left leg, which "didn't bother
me at all." The gullible doc fell for it and I was in.
(I hope the Statute of Limitations has expired.)
The Marines kept their word; I survived Parris Island and went to
Cherry Point as a radio operator on an R5C-1 (what the Army mistakenly
called a C-46 ((:-))) and a few months later passed the test for
flight training. I got away with that for six years and a couple
thousand hours flying time, till an inquisitive flight surgeon began
inquiring about the scar on my leg, discovered the poor pulse, and
they kicked me out-Honorably.
So like you, but in a different way, I avoided the infantry and got a
lot of free flying time.
vince norris
Robert Sveinson
And got paid!! Who could ask for more??
>
> vince norris
George Z. Bush
>> If truth be known, I was in an infantry ROTC unit in college and, way back
>> then, before we even got into the war, I had decided that if I was going to
>> have to fight a war, I'd much rather do it sitting on my ass than knocking
>> myself out on my blistered feet. ....
(Snip)
> The Marines kept their word; I survived Parris Island and went to
> Cherry Point as a radio operator on an R5C-1 (what the Army mistakenly
> called a C-46 ((:-))) and a few months later passed the test for
> flight training. I got away with that for six years and a couple
> thousand hours flying time, till an inquisitive flight surgeon began
> inquiring about the scar on my leg, discovered the poor pulse, and
> they kicked me out-Honorably.
>
> So like you, but in a different way, I avoided the infantry and got a
> lot of free flying time.
Funny you should mention the (you should pardon the expression) R5C-1.....I
logged 7-800 some odd hours in the C-46, mostly in the active Reserve and then
in and out of Korea during that unpleasantness. I sort of courted the lady who
later became my wife in one of them thar aerioplanes. She was in the AFNC and I
invited her up into the cockpit on one of our training flights out of Mitchel
AFB, NY where she was assigned to the Base Hospital. I let her fly the airplane
for a moment, and then surreptitiously turned off the control booster.
When she displayed some distress at being unable to make the airplane do
anything, I resumed control, surreptitiously turned the booster back on while
loudly proclaiming, "I don't understand what your problem is, darling, I can fly
this thing with just two fingers of my right hand" and then demonstrating my
ability to do just that. I asked her if she'd like to try again, but she
declined, figuring that it was just a case of difference in muscle-boundedness
and that I was the clear winner.
I never fessed up to my duplicity until after we were safely on the ground, but
I guess she forgave me because we shared a good laugh about it. Ultimately, we
did get married and it lasted for over 53 years.
BTW, one of my wife's (and later my) friends met and married a Marine aviator
who later commanded a transport squadron somewhere in the Far East (Iwakuni
sticks in my mind) and who ended up retiring with one star........I can't think
of his name, but it was Scandinavian. Something like Bergstrom.........ring any
bells?
George Z.
vincent p. norris
I got about 800 hours in that bird too! I spent part of my Marine
time in VMR 153, which was still flying R5Cs in the early '50s. They
got R4Q-2s (say it fast, three times--but not in mixed company) about
1953. That's what you called the C-119.
About half our R5Cs were painted that dark Navy blue; the other half
were unpainted aluminum. The blue ones had Army OD showing through
in many places, so I assumed that Army had worn them out, sold them
to the Navy, which gave them to the Marines.
I've recently discovered proof: At this site,
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher/thirdseries4.html , I found "my"
airplane, the one with my name under the cockpit window, BuNo. 39541:
39541 (ex 42-3626, c/n 39541/CU399) to N33623, PP-CDP, PP-AKE
(R.E.A.L., then Varig and last ASL Arruda & Comercio)
So it may still be flying around South America. Or Alaska. I saw my
first R5C in about 50 years at Red Deer, Alberta, where we landed for
fuel on a cross-country to Alaska about 12 years ago. There, a company
refurbishes R5Cs for use in AK. They were doing one that had just come
from South America. Many villages in AK, I was told, get everything
they consume in the winter by R5C.
> I sort of courted the lady who later became my wife in one of them thar aerioplanes. ....
> I let her fly the airplane for a moment, and then surreptitiously turned off the control booster.
It was a long time ago, but IIRC, our airplanes did not have that
control booster. I first learned there was such a thing a few years
ago, from an AC friend who flew them over the Hump. I believe he said
that was the C-46D. The R5C-1 would have been the C-46 A or B, I
suppose.
>BTW, one of my wife's (and later my) friends met and married a Marine aviator.......
>I can't think of his name, but it was Scandinavian. Something like Bergstrom.........ring any
>bells?
No, I'm afraid not. I probably would have remembered that name
because my family had friend with that name when I was growing up.
vince norris