IDF Raid on Osirak
Richard Edwards
Can anyone recommend a good non-fiction account of the Israeli raid against
the Iraqui "Osirak" nuclear plant in 1981?
Thanks for your recommendations.
Dave Stein
By the way, some of us are still waiting for a worldwide apology for the
condemnation of that attack :)
--
.
Carlo Kopp
Don't expect one in a hurry. The people who ranted and raved then belong
to the same lobbies ranting and raving today about the bombing of Iraq.
It would interesting to contemplate the UN's options in 1991 if Iraq had
Scud launched nuclear warheads.
I wonder how much these people would rant and rave if Saddam provided
some Anthrax or VX to a terrorist group which would let it loose say in
a NY or London subway ?
Cheers,
Carlo
[+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
Carlo Kopp <Carlo.Ko...@aus.net> wrote:
: Dave Stein wrote:
:>
:> By the way, some of us are still waiting for a worldwide apology for the
:> condemnation of that attack :)
:
: Don't expect one in a hurry. The people who ranted and raved then belong
: to the same lobbies ranting and raving today about the bombing of Iraq.
You guys are amazing! Mr. Stein, doesn't Israel posses nuclear, chemical,
and biological weapons? Kind of hypocritical when they mind their
neighbors acquiring the same weapons to maintain some sort of balance of
power (not that a nuclear power plant has to necessarily be viewed as a
WEAPON system). And in my book (and the UN's for that matter), bombing a
sovereign state with no warning or reason, is an ACT OF WAR.
Yes.. "madman" Saddam, who invaded Kuwait after the "green light" by the
US. What was the US' policy or response when Turkey invaded Cyprus? Or
when Israel invaded Lebanon? Keep your propaganda to yourselves next time,
we aren't all brainwashed Yanks, Jews, or Brits.
: It would interesting to contemplate the UN's options in 1991 if Iraq had
: Scud launched nuclear warheads.
Why, didn't Iraq have chemical/biological weapons to launch? Did it? And
why would Iraq need a nuclear warhead? You think that if they blew up a
Scud 15,000ft in the air, with a few kilos of enriched Uranium in it, that
most Isreali's wouldn't "glow in the dark"? No.. it's just that you need
to spew more propaganda.
: I wonder how much these people would rant and rave if Saddam provided
: some Anthrax or VX to a terrorist group which would let it loose say in
: a NY or London subway ?
You mean like when the US or European countries were selling it to him
(and many others) just a few years ago? I wonder how much you would "rant
and rave" if your terrorist supporting country (US) found one of its
Stingers gently lodged on the side of a commericial airliner. Oh.. I'm
sorry, that's the US Navy's job!
: Cheers,
: Carlo
--
..-------[+=]----------[ Dionysios Pilarinos ]----------[+=]-------.
| 'Soon you'll feed their appetite; they devour..' - Metallica! |
` [ dpil...@hellas.org ] [ www.hellas.org ] '
Uri Noy
In article <6cth3q$p...@zappa.northnet.org>, "Richard Edwards"
>Can anyone recommend a good non-fiction account of the Israeli raid against
>the Iraqui "Osirak" nuclear plant in 1981?
the hebrew name is "Tamuz in flames" ( Tamuz = Orirak ), not sure the english
version has the same name, but the author's name is quite unique.
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
Uri Noy
In article <6cuorr$9...@news9.noc.netcom.net>, [+=] Dionysios Pilarinos <dpil...@hellas.org> wrote:
>Carlo Kopp <Carlo.Ko...@aus.net> wrote:
>: Dave Stein wrote:
>:>
>:> By the way, some of us are still waiting for a worldwide apology for the
>:> condemnation of that attack :)
>:
>: Don't expect one in a hurry. The people who ranted and raved then belong
>: to the same lobbies ranting and raving today about the bombing of Iraq.
>
>You guys are amazing! Mr. Stein, doesn't Israel posses nuclear, chemical,
>and biological weapons? Kind of hypocritical when they mind their
nukes, bio and chem weapons? i wonder whether you might be a citizen of one of
them. a gun is never evil, only the person behind it !!
no once lives in fear that any of those nations would someday attack a
neighbour with those weapons, and what about the massive stocks of chem and
bio in egypt , syria, even libya ?
No one, not even the arabs really think israel would ever use those weapons,
which it repeatedly said for decades it will not be the first to "introduce
into the middle east" .
No one thinks israel will use such weapons unless being given a VERY painful
reason to . on the other hand, saddam massively used chem weapons not only
enemies at war but also against rebel civilian population, his own citizens.
so don't talk about hypocricy here. there isn't any, except maybe in your
words, which might come from either ignorance or misunderstanding of basic
facts, or plain hypocricy. i assume it's just ignorance.
> (not that a nuclear power plant has to necessarily be viewed as a
>WEAPON system).
again, dangerous ignorance i'm afraid. nuclear reactors are not born equal,
there are various types. the iraqi reactor was not designed to be efficient
for any civilian use as power production or research. it was a military
reactor. we israelis should know, the french sold us one too :-)
And in my book (and the UN's for that matter), bombing a
>sovereign state with no warning or reason, is an ACT OF WAR.
i know i'm repeating myself, but again, ignorance. unlike all other arab
countries which signed cease fire with israel after each war, some even make
peace with israel in the last 20 years, iraq, having no border with israel
thought it can proudly remain is a declared state of war with israel since
1948 !! and never suffer from it. well they're at war with israel for 50
years, so israel fought :-) . nothing new about it.
>Yes.. "madman" Saddam, who invaded Kuwait after the "green light" by the
US
ok, i'll not repeat that, you know it, i'll just give you the details.
the US never did such a foolish thing as giving saddam a green light on
kuwait. the US ambassador has been accused by some of doing it, but it's more
likely that saddam 'understood' what he wanted to from her diplomatic words.
>we aren't all brainwashed Yanks, Jews, or Brits.
true, but some people, you for example, are very ignorant about subjects they
express 'knowledgeable' opinion, an unfortunate side effect of the freedom of
internet. well, at least it gives me a reason to answer.
>: It would interesting to contemplate the UN's options in 1991 if Iraq had
>: Scud launched nuclear warheads.
it would have been more interesting for you to consider the effect on YOUR
personal life style if it happened. but you probably don't understand or
remember the 1973 "energy crisis" .
oh, and assuming the US would had used force anyway, had saddam used nukes in
1991, he would have been in hell now, along with the milions of baghdad
residents, you idiot.
>Why, didn't Iraq have chemical/biological weapons to launch? Did it?
the UN inspectors found in iraq 815 scuds, 50 chem warheads 25 bio warheads,
and huge amounts of bio and chem agent.
>why would Iraq need a nuclear warhead?
to do better against iran next time ? or against the kurd rebels ? you know
that losing 5000 people within minutes in halavja by chem. weapon (cyanide
gas) didnt stop the kurish rebelion.
>: I wonder how much these people would rant and rave if Saddam provided
>: some Anthrax or VX to a terrorist group which would let it loose say in
>: a NY or London subway ?
or in your city, you unbelievabe idiot.
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
Dave Stein
>
> You guys are amazing! Mr. Stein, doesn't Israel posses nuclear, chemical,
> and biological weapons?
Yes, so does the US where I live, France, India, Russia and others.
difference is, we have never used them on our own people or someone we
weren't already at war with.
Kind of hypocritical when they mind their
> neighbors acquiring the same weapons to maintain some sort of balance of
> power (not that a nuclear power plant has to necessarily be viewed as a
> WEAPON system).
It does when the constructor openly states that it will be used to make
weapons to destroy that neigbor, like Saddam did in the early '80s
And in my book (and the UN's for that matter), bombing a
> sovereign state with no warning or reason, is an ACT OF WAR.
Direct and open threat of the use of force on one's country is ample
reason to open hostilities, just like in 1967.
> Or
> when Israel invaded Lebanon?
Same reason, shelling of civilian towns was ample reason.
Keep your propaganda to yourselves next time,
and yours to yourself, please. By the way, I'm also waiting for the
Hellenists to apologize for the occupation and opression of my people
way back in ancient times.
> we aren't all brainwashed Yanks, Jews, or Brits.
Some are brainwashed Nationalists.
>
>
Dave Stein
My apologies to r.a.m. for letting this degenerate into a non-aviation
discussion. It stops here.
(and I'm still waiting for an Osirak apology. I'm just glad Saddam was
denied nukes while our troops were there in '91)
--
Nothing spoils fun
like finding out
it builds character.
-Calvin
[+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
Dave Stein <dave....@oakweb.com> wrote:
:> You guys are amazing! Mr. Stein, doesn't Israel posses nuclear, chemical,
:> and biological weapons?
:
: Yes, so does the US where I live, France, India, Russia and others.
: difference is, we have never used them on our own people or someone we
: weren't already at war with.
What images of grandeur! In which way is Israel in the same "league" as
the US, France, India, UK, or Russia? The only other state that MIGHT have
nuclear weapons is Pakistan, and that is why the US has a weapons embargo
against that state. The same should apply to Israel.
: Kind of hypocritical when they mind their
:> neighbors acquiring the same weapons to maintain some sort of balance of
:> power (not that a nuclear power plant has to necessarily be viewed as a
:> WEAPON system).
:
: It does when the constructor openly states that it will be used to make
: weapons to destroy that neigbor, like Saddam did in the early '80s
And when the US was building its arsenal (or Israel), it did so just to
waste a few billion. The reason Israel HAS those nukes (and this is what
they claim), is to USE them against their neighbors if they lose a war. Or
are you ready to state here that Israel would lose a conventional war
without attempting to use her nukes?
: And in my book (and the UN's for that matter), bombing a
:> sovereign state with no warning or reason, is an ACT OF WAR.
:
: Direct and open threat of the use of force on one's country is ample
: reason to open hostilities, just like in 1967.
You mean propaganda to excuse an actual ACT OF WAR.
:> Or when Israel invaded Lebanon?
:
: Same reason, shelling of civilian towns was ample reason.
Ample reasons for an invasion? Hmm.. when IAF planes bomb targets outside
of her borders, shouldn't those states then invade Israel as a first step
("screw the UN and Hague", right)? With that logic, even the US should
invade Israel for attacking her ship in international waters! And Cyprus
should also invade, because IAF planes constantly violate Leukosia FIR!
How civilized of you.
:> Keep your propaganda to yourselves next time,
:
: and yours to yourself, please. By the way, I'm also waiting for the
: Hellenists to apologize for the occupation and opression of my people
: way back in ancient times.
Who oppressed whom? I'll expect your apology for putting Christ on the
cross.
:> we aren't all brainwashed Yanks, Jews, or Brits.
:
: Some are brainwashed Nationalists.
And some brainwashed imperialists.
--
..-------[+=]----------[ Dionysios Pilarinos ]----------[+=]-------.
| 'The shortest straw has been pulled for you...' - Metallica! |
` [ dpil...@hellas.org ] [ www.hellas.org ] '
Damien Burke
>(and I'm still waiting for an Osirak apology. I'm just glad Saddam was
>denied nukes while our troops were there in '91)
An awful lot of us thought Osirak was a bloody nice job. Hell,
I've even reflown the mission in flight sims ;)
--
Damien Burke (add k to end of address if replying)
British military aircraft page: http://www.totavia.com/jetman/
Uri Noy
In article <6cvsos$j...@news9.noc.netcom.net>, [+=] Dionysios Pilarinos <dpil...@hellas.org> wrote:
>What images of grandeur! In which way is Israel in the same "league" as
>the US, France, India, UK, or Russia?
posess nukes
2. there are many examination categories in which israel is second only to the
US in the above mentioned group. Hi-Tech for one. here's an example: the MMX
unit in your pentium was fully designed, from the original idea to the final
product in the israeli R&D group of INTEL. and there are many other examples.
>And when the US was building its arsenal (or Israel), it did so just to
>waste a few billion.
not true, the only reason which conviced the US president to invest any money
in nuclear development was the hell nightmare of an enemy dictator having it
first and drop the bomb on it.
the dictator i'm referring to was Hitler of course.
Israel had EXACTLY the same reason to become nuclear, only the name of the
dictator was different, it was Nasser.
>they claim), is to USE them against their neighbors if they lose a war.
if israel ever loses a war most of it's 5 milion citizens will be murdered.
i don't suppose you oppose their right to do what is necessary to remain
alive if attacked.
>Who oppressed whom?
the old greeks opressed the old judeans, not otherwise, the only invasion ever
of jews to greece is happening in our era, in which israeli tourists are
invading greece in the summer. i'm one of them, and thanks for the
hospitality, the greeks i've met were very nice people, even while in
political debate, unlike you.
>I'll expect your apology for putting Christ on the cross.
our apology? my dear fellow, go, organize all your friends, and make a very
noisy and emotional demonstation outside the roman embassy, er, i mean the
italian embassy, in athens, demanding an official apology of the roman empire,
nowadays called italy, for the torture, unjust trial, and eventual execution,
of a loyal roman subject, a jew from the judean province of the empire, jesus
of nazereth, by the commitioner of the province, Mr. Pontius Pilatus.
i also strongly suggest that you'll demand that Mr. Pilatus will no longer be
employed by the roman imperial government !!!
since jesus of nazereth was not only one of the most famous jews ever but also
an important reformer and jewish theologist, you'll have my full moral support
on this, 100% !!!
>:> we aren't all brainwashed
true, but there are so many ignorants in internet who express their opinion on
things they really know nothing about. you for example.
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
Maiesm72
Nice reply, Uri. To all of this Greek dimwit's antisemitic, anti everything
that he can't make up out of his rear end nonsense.
Thank you, Israel, for taking out Iraq's military reactor.
Thank you, Israel, for keeping the lid on and not responding when Iraq rained
Scuds down onto your civilian population centers.
Thank you, Saudi Arabia, Israel and the rest, for providing bases and support
as best you could for Desert Storm.
Thank you, Iraq, for showing the world that you won't hesitate to use weapons
that no one else would use to murder your own civilians, those of the Kurds and
those of Iraq.
While we are at it, I sure would like to see an end to the voices who moan "We
are not after the Iraqi people, only their evil leaders". What crap! It is the
Iraqi people who keep that despot in power, just like it was the German people
who kept Hitler in power.
Good luck Uri, and thanks.
Tom Young
[+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
Uri Noy <urinoy@SPAM_DECOY_PLEASE_IGNORE.ibm.net> wrote:
First off, I doubt ram is the appropriate newsgroup for you to spew your
propaganda (like asking "appologies" for an act of aggression and war).
But if you must, I'll respond.
:>What images of grandeur! In which way is Israel in the same "league" as
:>the US, France, India, UK, or Russia?
:
: 1. israel is a member of the 'nuclear' club simply because it developed and
: posess nukes
Yes, I'm sure the fact that you BOUGHT or STOLE the technology has nothing
to do with it.
: 2. there are many examination categories in which israel is second only to the
: US in the above mentioned group. Hi-Tech for one. here's an example: the MMX
: unit in your pentium was fully designed, from the original idea to the final
: product in the israeli R&D group of INTEL. and there are many other examples.
An American (who happened to be Jewish) developed Intel in the US, with
American (non-Jewish included I imagine) workers and developers, and this
makes it an "Israeli R&D group"! Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Intel
OLDER than the state of Israel? Incidently, I have an AMD processor.
:>And when the US was building its arsenal (or Israel), it did so just to
:>waste a few billion.
:
: not true, the only reason which conviced the US president to invest any money
: in nuclear development was the hell nightmare of an enemy dictator having it
: first and drop the bomb on it.
Which dictator? The ones the US put in power, or the ones Britain and
France put there? Please tell us about the long democratic history of US
policy in the world!
: the dictator i'm referring to was Hitler of course.
Did Germany even have a method to deploy such a weapon to the Americas? Of
course not, but that is not what they teach you in Propaganda 101. Just
like the fact that you are ignoring the use of the bomb against a state
that did not have such technology.
: Israel had EXACTLY the same reason to become nuclear, only the name of the
: dictator was different, it was Nasser.
Pathetic propaganda. Where is Nasser's nuclear arsenal? And if you want to
talk about "democracy", talk about the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, the
millions of refugees, and the forced subhuman living conditions of the
ghettos of Gaza and the West Bank.
:>they claim), is to USE them against their neighbors if they lose a war.
:
: if israel ever loses a war most of it's 5 milion citizens will be murdered.
: i don't suppose you oppose their right to do what is necessary to remain
: alive if attacked.
More propaganda. If Israel lost a war, its citizens would not be murdered.
But I like the way you write... very effective against brain-washed
individuals. And if they already "lost the war", and "most of its 5
million citizens (were) murdered", what would the "bomb" do to keep them
"alive" (as you state)? Please tell me what logic you use when you come to
such conclusions.
:>Who oppressed whom?
:
: the old greeks opressed the old judeans, not otherwise, the only
The ancient Hellenes and later Byzantines *LIBERATED* the lands by
defeating *NOT* the Jews, but the Persians and Arabs. In fact, any
historian will tell you about the cultural and economic development
durring the Hellenistic period (after Alexander the Great). I doubt you'll
find any author *OTHER THAN A JEW* that will cry about "oppression". And
the reason I'm singling out the Jews is because of their racist
continuation of celebrating "Hanukkah". Aren't the candles indicative of
the victory of the Jewish faith over the "darkness" of Hellenic culture?
: invasion ever
: of jews to greece is happening in our era, in which israeli tourists are
: invading greece in the summer. i'm one of them, and thanks for the
: hospitality, the greeks i've met were very nice people, even while in
: political debate, unlike you.
Please don't hurt my feelings! You Israelis might get so annoyed, you
might stop wearing Hellenic fisherman caps, and listening to Glykeria!
:>I'll expect your apology for putting Christ on the cross.
:
: our apology? my dear fellow, go, organize all your friends, and make a very
: noisy and emotional demonstation outside the roman embassy, er, i mean the
Placing blame on someone else... how becoming. I suppose now that you can
also call up the ADL and report an "anti-Semite" like myself. They keep an
up-to-date file system there.
[snip story of Jesus]
:>:> we aren't all brainwashed
:
: true, but there are so many ignorants in internet who express their
: opinion on things they really know nothing about. you for example.
Personal attacks! Great way to defend your point of you. At least you
won't send the IAF to bomb my house. That's good compared to what the
IDF's record is on targeting "enemies".
: Uri Noy
: ISRAEL
--
..-------[+=]----------[ Dionysios Pilarinos ]----------[+=]-------.
| 'Halls of justice painted green, money talking...' - Metallica! |
` [ dpil...@hellas.org ] [ www.hellas.org ] '
[+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
Maiesm72 <maie...@aol.com> wrote:
: Nice reply, Uri. To all of this Greek dimwit's antisemitic, anti everything
: that he can't make up out of his rear end nonsense.
It is so great that you guys respond with personal attacks and pathetic
propaganda.. it makes it easier for me to respond. First off, when one
disagrees with actions of Israel, why are you quick to label him a racist?
Would you do the same if one attacked the policies and actions of *ANY*
other state? No, it just proves how brainwashed you are. Second, if I were
"anti-Jewish" or "anti-Israeli", that would not necessarily make me an
"anti-Semite". Arabs are also a Semitic people.
: Thank you, Israel, for taking out Iraq's military reactor.
Encouraging more acts of war. A militarist imperialist I suppose.
: Thank you, Israel, for keeping the lid on and not responding when Iraq rained
: Scuds down onto your civilian population centers.
Thank you Lebanon for keeping the lid on and not responding when Israel
bombs your cities every other day (or is it a daily event)?
: Thank you, Saudi Arabia, Israel and the rest, for providing bases and support
: as best you could for Desert Storm.
Israel provided bases of operation? Thank you Israel. Oh.. thank you SYRIA
for providing TROOPS and EQUIPMENT, as well as occupying Iraqi forces on
your border.
: Thank you, Iraq, for showing the world that you won't hesitate to use weapons
: that no one else would use to murder your own civilians, those of the
: Kurds and those of Iraq.
Yes, thank you Iraq. What do you think, that you are the US and that you
can use your citizens (and servicemen) as guinea pigs to test out your
weapons of mass destruction?
: While we are at it, I sure would like to see an end to the voices who moan "We
: are not after the Iraqi people, only their evil leaders". What crap! It is the
: Iraqi people who keep that despot in power, just like it was the German people
: who kept Hitler in power.
At least you are honest enough to admit that you are targeting the people
of Iraq. And you are honest enough to admit that the people of a nation
are responsible for the actions of their politicians. Now visit most
countries in the world, and wonder why they hate Americans. Trust me, they
ain't all "commies".
: Good luck Uri, and thanks.
: Tom Young
--
Arie Kazachin
In message <6cvsos$j...@news9.noc.netcom.net> - [+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
<dpil...@hellas.org>25 Feb 1998 01:39:40 GMT writes:
>
[snip]
>What images of grandeur! In which way is Israel in the same "league" as
>the US, France, India, UK, or Russia? The only other state that MIGHT have
In a very simple way: both US and Israel (and most of the Europe states)
are governed by presidents/prime ministers elected once in a few
years by democratic elections AND THE HEADS OF STATES CHANGE ONCE
IN A FEW TERMS. Also, the legislation is done by parliaments
which are also elected once in a few years by democratic elections
and members of those parliaments are also shift from coallition
to opposition once in few terms. Iraq, Iran and many other
(almost all?) Israely neighboring states doesn't belong to this league.
If you'll examine various wars throughout the history, I'm sure that
in most cases you'll see the pattern:
1) Democratic regimes don't attack without being in danger.
2) Non-democratic regimes CAN'T EXIST WITHOUT AN ENEMY and therefore
sooner or later they attack without being in danger because
without some enemy the people might notice the empty stomac.
Since Israel is in the same league with US and Europe (I would be
cautious about including Russia in it - I'll wait 30 years to be sure) -
the league of democratic states, it will not attack without being
endangered. Iraq, Iran and other non-democratic states will attack
if their leaders will fear public unrest more than Israely retaliation.
It's really easy to understand if you've read the "1984" or was born
in USSR (both apply for me).
Now, back to the "Opera" operation: one more description can be found
in the book, named (translating from Hebrew): "The sky is not the limit".
I really don't know if it had been published in other languages than
Hebrew and I suspect it's not as detailed as in "Tamuz in flames":
"The sky is not the limit" is about the whole history of IAF and the
"Opera" operation takes only few pages. Summarising from memory:
8 F-16A-s took off from Etzion airbase with 3 "bags" and 2 1-ton bombs,
passed unexpectedly over king Hussein's yaucht, flew to the target
at about 450-500 kts at 400-600 ft (the range was slightly beyound
the theoretical unrefueled range calculated by G.D. engineers for this
payload). The bombs were not "smart" - simple "iron" 1-ton bombs, dropped
at an predetrmined angle to a predermined point of the reactor. There was
detailed info about the structure to calculate the number and weight
of the bombs required - 8 1-tom bombs, and with 100% safety margin - 16
bombs. Before zooming and diving on target the planes created between
them distances, calculated from the time required for a dust from one
blast to settle down before the next pilot drops its 2 bombs. 15 bombs hit
the reactor, one didn't explode, leaving 14 "delivered as planned" when 8
was enough. One bomb missed the reactor but accidently hit a weapons
lab nearby, so it wasn't wasted after all.
That was my hubmle attempt to return somehow to the topic. Sorry for the
first,
off-topic part - we're only humans.
******************************************************************************
* Arie Kazachin, Israel, e-mail: ariek3.141592...@ibm.net *
******************************************************************************
NOTE: before replying, leave only letters in my userID. Sorry, SPAM trap.
Dean
Well done Uri! I could'n have said it better myself.
You're right, for all the learned and decent people on the Net, there has
to be ignorant and self-professed know-it-alls as well. Oh well, we just
have to take the good with the bad.
Now lets get on with the real topic ... Aviation!
Dean
-------------------------------------------------------------
Visit my Unofficial SAAF Web Site with links to my aviation related Home Page:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/2789/saaf.htm
How come every time my ship comes in, I'm at the airport?
Maiesm72
What variants of the F-16 were used in the raid? Were they all single seat, or
were two-seat variants involved?
Are there photos of the markings used at the time? Were any special markings
used for the strike? Were support aircraft used, ie airborne control, etc.?
Thanks in advance if anyone can fill us in on these questions.
Tom Young
Andras Otto Schneider
In article <6d40k3$k...@news9.noc.netcom.net>, [+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
<dpil...@hellas.org> wrote:
>
> Did Germany even have a method to deploy such a weapon to the Americas? Of
> course not, but that is not what they teach you in Propaganda 101. Just
> like the fact that you are ignoring the use of the bomb against a state
> that did not have such technology.
>
January 1944, after some short distance test flights, the JU 390v2 with
fuel suffiecent for 32 hours of flight, tookoff from Mont de Marsan and
returned after transiting the Atlantic to a point 12 miles from the US
coast north of New York. The -390 was an enlarged -290 constructed for the
sole purpose of bombing New York
from Warplanes of the Third Reich, William Greene
"These blast points are too accurate for Imperial Stormtroopers, only
Imperial Special Effects Technicians are so precise" Ben Kenobi in redubbed
SW:ANH
Obvious instructions regarding the Email address
tay
Maiesm72 <maie...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19980227200...@ladder02.news.aol.com>wrote:
> What variants of the F-16 were used in the raid? Were they all single
seat
Yes
>or were two-seat variants involved?
No
> Are there photos of the markings used at the time?
No
> Were any special markings used for the strike?
No
> Were support aircraft used, ie airborne control, etc.?
Yes. F-15s
And it was not the Israel Defence Force attacking, but the Israel Air Force
(entirely different but friendly bunch of guys that went on a tour for
Bagdad,
got lost and released some ballast to get home safely. Funny it hit the
dome).
Tay
Uri Noy
>Uri Noy <urinoy@SPAM_DECOY_PLEASE_IGNORE.ibm.net> wrote:
Dionysios, you force me to answer point by point.
although i suspect the information i write is absolutely wasted on you, i KNOW
there are other readers who, like me, are happy to gain more knowledge and
better understanding of important and/or interseting historical facts. so i
share my knowledge and learn from others. you probably don't, but i'll ignore
it. i can't change you and others like you.
>Yes, I'm sure the fact that you BOUGHT or STOLE (nuclear) technology has
nothing
>to do with it.
ok, first, unlike saddam who "needed" weapons of mass destruction to enhance
his personal ability to attack his neighbour, Iran, and his rebelious
oppressed kurdish citizens, israel, in the 50s-60s was under a very real
threat of total destruction by it's aggressive neighbours, unwilling to accept
it very existance, and i remind you we're talking about the tiny israel of
before the 6-days-war !! , in which israel's width, from sea to border was ,
along a strip a bit north from tel-aviv only 10 miles !! , check the maps in
the history books if you don't believe me. and that's in the middle of israel.
you're greek. imagine that at the eastern end o the korinthos canal there's
land, and the turkish army is there, and in the eastern neighbourhoods of
athens too, and that the italians are your enemies too. nice eh :-)
so israel, under a tremendous threat of total anihilation , a very small
country surrounded by significantly larger, powerful, richer , agressive
neighbours, declaring again and again that our destruction is just a matter of
time and some more military buildup...
israel had every moral right to do what ever possible to protect itself.
becoming nuclear was one step we took.
now, you say we bought or stole nucklear technology, well, that's not all.
i can proudly, arronagtly if you like, remind you that albert einstein, robert
openheimer, and others of the world's first, top, nuclear physicists were
jews. you think they didnt help? they sure did.; giving "private lessons" to
ISRAELI nuclear physicists, university proferssors who had to become the
leaders of a nuclear bomb project.
and that's the main point. we stole some, and bought some from the french, who
are people who would sell EVERYTHING to EVERYONE who pays, whether it's
israel, or iraq,iran, libya or anyone.
and we learned some from our brothers, the american jewish scientists, BUT, we
also advanced by ourselves, and fast, and we still do, because unlike your
perception of israel, we ARE a leader in science and hi-tech. at the top
leauge. whether you like it or not.
i'm only guessing, but i think there are characteristics which a people, a
nation, develops along the centuries, millenia in the jewish case, of its path
in history. take the british for example, a fine nation indeed. and their
american 'branch' . and us, jews, FORCED by 2000 years of exile to develop a
strong habit of studying, learning, excelling. and that brings me to
responding to your next point...
>: US in the above mentioned group. Hi-Tech for one. here's an example: the
MMX
>: unit in your pentium was fully designed, from the original idea to the
final
>: product in the israeli R&D group of INTEL. and there are many other
examples.
>
>An American (who happened to be Jewish) developed Intel in the US, with
>American (non-Jewish included I imagine) workers and developers, and this
>makes it an "Israeli R&D group"! Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Intel
>OLDER than the state of Israel? Incidently, I have an AMD processor.
you don't understand it, don't you. i'll explain again, in simple words.
INTEL, an american hi-tech company, established one of it's main R&D centers
in israel, in the 70s. they didn't do it because INTEL's CEO is jewish. they
didn't do it in order to put american intel workers in israel. they did it in
order to let INTEL enjoy, profit, from the capabilities of israeli researchers
and engineers. period. the flow of ideas is from that ( and others) R&D
center into INTEL, not otherwise. and the center in israel is made of hundreds
of israelis who do reaserch for intel.
and the MMX ( one ONE example ) is an idea which originated and developed by
israelis from scratch to final product. ( actually it's very good that people
all over the world are working to advance mankind's knowledge and technology,
but that's irrelevant to the current subject and it's probably beyond your
grasp Dionysios )
so when i said "israeli R&D group" i meant exactly that, hundreds or R&D
people, israelis, and that's only one R&D center. almost every american and
japanese hi-tech giant corporation now has such a R&D center in israel.
i think it says something, and supports what i said before.
btw, FYI, i intel was founded after 1948, not before.
>: not true, the only reason which conviced the US president to invest any
money
>: in nuclear development was the hell nightmare of an enemy dictator having
it
>: first and drop the bomb on it.
>: the dictator i'm referring to was Hitler of course.
>Which dictator? The ones the US put in power, or the ones Britain and
>France put there?
come on, i said who i meant, adolf hitler. do you suggest hitler was a british
puppet? come on, it's too ignorant childish and stupid of you to suggest it.
why don't you just go and read a good introductory book about the history of
germany between WW1 and WW2 ? you might learn some basic facts.
as for the nature of power-politics the US played in the 20th century, i can
only say 2 things: relative to the power politics played by dictatorships (
each at its own scale ) , american power politics it almost a child's game.
second, considering its mighy power, american leaders, especially after
vietnam, are playing a relatively fair game, and are affected by moral
principles more then ever in human history.
i can only appreciate them for it. it's much better than most other leaders in
history ever did.
>Did Germany even have a method to deploy such a weapon to the Americas? Of
>course not,
of course YES!! they DID, you ignorant fool. considering german leadership in
rocketry in the 40s, the germans had plans to develop an ICBM, a succesor to
their V-2 balistic rocket. and there's no doubt the V-2 would have been
quickly followed by a (nuclear) V-3 or V-4, capable of reaching the US east
coast. and if that's not enough, german submarines could easily deliver a
nuclear device to ANY point along the US coast, a nuclear time-bomb, and
explode it. missiles are not the only way you know... and there's no way the
US navy could stop them which the technology of that time. it took the
american decades, and many bilions, to be able to monitor the ocean for
submarine presence as they can monitor the sky for aircraft and missiles, and
even so it takes a huge, very expensive effort to do it.
so have no doubt, if hitler had a nuclear bomb, he would have no problem in
destroying new york or washington with it.
>but that is not what they teach you in Propaganda 101.
the best "propaganda" is when the true facts are at your side, and you don't
need to lie. i stick to facts. no need for propaganda :-)
>like the fact that you are ignoring the use of the bomb against a state
>that did not have such technology.
oh, that's a very easy point. a simple calculation clearly shows that unless
the US dropped the bomb on japan, many milions, most of them japanse
civilians, would have been killed, and japan would have been destroyed.
so no doubt dropping the bomb was well worth it, in terms of SAVING human
lives. and i'm not referring yet to the indirect life-saving effect it had by
preventing a third world war between stalin and NATO, prevented thanks to the
terrible image of the destructive power of the bomb, effectively demonstrated
in hirosima and nagasaki.
>Pathetic propaganda. Where is Nasser's nuclear arsenal? And if you want to
>talk about "democracy", talk about the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, the
>millions of refugees, and the forced subhuman living conditions of the
>ghettos of Gaza and the West Bank.
not a bit of propaganda. Nasser had no nukes, only a military force MANY times
larger than that of israel, and better equipped, and in addition he had an
ongoing project to develop biological and sub-nuclear missiles.
( gladly, unlike the israeli project, the egyptian project was totally based
on ex-nazi scientists, who were scared away by MOSSAD. being german, they
wanted to work for nasser, not to die for him )
so by the time israel advanced toward getting the bomb, in was actually in an
arms race. this i believe enhanced its moral right to work to get the bomb.
ethnic cleansing. HA!, there are too many details to mention here, so i'll
just mention some.
over a milion arabs remain to live in israel, they were unharmed, and enjoy
more freedom then their 'independent' brothers in sirya and iraq, where
protest means death !
sub human living conditions.. all arab countries in 1948-1967 forced their
refugee 'brothers' to remain in those miserable camps, for propaganda reasons
and to maintain hatred. on the other hand, near a milion jews who lived in
arab countries became refugees too, but where fully absorbed in israel as
equal citizens, but that's a fact much less known, coz unlike arab countries
israel was never smart or dirty enough to use such propaganda.
you're greek. imagine that all the greek refugees from what is now turkish
areas were forced by the greek government to remain in ghettos for decades...
that's what arab countries still do today. israel still under military threat,
occupied those camps as long as it had no one to give them back to.
since 1992, most of those camps were returned to palestinian hands, but
regretably, european diplomats say most of the support money arafat received
since 1992 had "vaporized" into the personal pockets of him and his close
supporters. another fact israel does not vigoruosly use coz it does not use
"propaganda", sometimes even when it's tne unpleasent truth, not lies.
>More propaganda. If Israel lost a war, its citizens would not be murdered.
you sound very sure of yourself. well i'm not so sure as you about this
question. actually, considering the way the arabs massacre their own brothers
makes me doubt it very much. and it's my life in question here. not yours.
i prefer to stick to the assumption that israel can't afford to lose a war,
and act accordingly, which israel does, but pursuing military supeiority AND
peace.
>But I like the way you write... very effective against brain-washed
thank you, but it' actually quite easy when historical truth and basic facts
support your position.
>individuals. And if they already "lost the war", and "most of its 5
>million citizens (were) murdered", what would the "bomb" do to keep them
>"alive" (as you state)? Please tell me what logic you use when you come to
>such conclusions.
ah, another easy question. you don't drop the bomb after you lost the war. you
use, or threat to use it before you lose the war, and by doing so change the
course of the war in your favor :-) if there's no other way.
>The ancient Hellenes and later Byzantines *LIBERATED* the lands by
>defeating *NOT* the Jews, but the Persians and Arabs.
oh dear, i almost can't type when i lauhg so much....
this is LOW, Dionysios, real low, even for you.
i'll ignore most of that silly incorrect claim of yours and focus in the last
word. Arabs.
arab presence anywhere north of (saudi-)arabia began only with islam,
many CENTURIES AFTER the hellenic era ended, those are different historical
times, do you understand what i'm saying ? and the turkish empire which fought
and defeated the Byzantines and occupied greece, the turks are not arabs at
all, only muslims, and that was even ceturies later.
please, i won't bother to answer SUCH ignorance much longer.
please, make an effort to enhance your arguments.
>In fact, any
>historian will tell you about the cultural and economic development
>durring the Hellenistic period (after Alexander the Great).
true, i agree. but it's not me who accused the greek of oppression, it was
someone else. i acknokledge and appreciate the hellenic culture.
>the reason I'm singling out the Jews is because of their racist
>continuation of celebrating "Hanukkah".
rasict? come on. "hanuka" celebrates achieving independence from a foreign
conqueror ( the hellenic empire in this case ) by a successful rebelion and
war. its' the most common form of of national celebration worldwide. nothing
racist about it. besides, it's quite clear that you don't really understand
the term "rasicm" , but i'm not going to waste one word explaining it you you,
you're too dumb to understand the difference.
>Aren't the candles indicative of the victory of the Jewish faith over the
"darkness" of Hellenic culture?
no. actually using a physical object, like the wooden cross for example, as a
symbol closely linked to the event it symbolizes, is a very common human
behaviour.
just as christian faith uses the wooden cross, or the cross symbol in general,
to symbolize the exceution of jesus ( by direct command of Mr. pontius pilatus
of the roman imperial government, if i may reminf you again )
simply because jesus was executed by crusification on a wooden cross, so does
jewish faith celebrates the end of hellenic conquest by lighting candles. just
like the candles which the jewish military commander lit in the sacred lamp
in the holy temple in jerusalem immediately after the hellenic troops were
kicked out of there, to symbolize restoration of jewish customs prohibited by
the hellenic oppressors, and to symbolize the restored jewish independence.
( freedom of the faith is now considered a basic human right, oppression can
be defined as denial of human rights ) so you see. nothing racist about it.
>Please don't hurt my feelings! You Israelis might get so annoyed, you
>might stop wearing Hellenic fisherman caps, and listening to Glykeria!
this is becoming rediculous. not only we waste our money in the host country,
buying all sort of silly stuff, like all tourists do, enhancing the economy of
the host country... you have negative attitude to the fact that we adopt and
like parts of greek culture.
first, what's so bad about it? the world is more international than ever.
second, few greek singers do what decades of efforts and several wars failed
to do, make jews accept some greek culture. you should be happy, you idiot !
>Placing blame on someone else... how becoming.
hey, i'm only blaming the one who should be blamed.
the fact that some jewish rabbies, 2000 years ago, didn't like the ideas of
jesus is totally irrelevant to his death.
what killed jesus was the roman method of colonial government. which like most
dictatorial regimes just do not tolerate people with "dangerous" ideas. that's
what killed him.
so i don't see any reason for jews to apologize for the exceution of one of
the most important jews in history, jesus, by the roman martial law system.
it's the italians who should apologize, if you insist.
>also call up the ADL and report an "anti-Semite" like myself.
you're not an anti-semitic. that's another term you don't understand.
>:>:> we aren't all brainwashed
true. not even you. you just suffer from severe ignorance and the resulting
close-minded narrow "thought".
i can wildly guess you're ignorance is the result of reading playboy in
history lessons at school. which is understandable in some cases, but does not
improve your knowledge and understanding of human history.
>Personal attacks! Great way to defend your point of you.
Mr . Dionysios Pilarinos, i add the flavour of personal attacks only in
addition to careful, fact based, expression of my point of view, and only
bacause you, like others who use the freedom of internet to strongly express
their know-it-all opinions in subjects they know nothing about, you simply
deserve it. you are an ignorant who struggles to express an opinion based only
on ignorance, so you deserve it.
>At least you won't send the IAF to bomb my house.
no, but dictators like saddam hussein would, if they could, preferably
nuclear, if they had one. but he does not have it coz MOSSAD sabotaged his
first reactor, the IAF bombed the second, and US air power bombed the third.
it's nice how it all links back to the original subject.
>That's good compared to what the IDF's record is on targeting "enemies".
the israeli air force actually makes great efforts to avoid hitting civilians,
not only because it's a government policy, but also because pilots don't want
murder of innocent civilians on their conscience. but you wan't believe me
about this. although it's the simple truth.
A note to OTHER readers:
First of all, i hope you find the facts and views i express enlighting and
intersting. writing all this takes time and effort :-)
Second, i hope you don't think the 'treatment' Mr. Pilarinos is getting from
me is too hard. not knowing things is acceptable. Mr. Pilarinos is not even
living in the middle-east, so he does not have to be an expert in those
matters. i admit i know very little about the history of south-american
countries. i'm not proud of it, but its acceptable, you can't know it all.
But not knowing AND repeately expressing know-it-all views based mainly on
deep ignorance is unforgivable. and that's what Mr. Pilarinos does.
so i think he deserves some of it.
oh, and sorry for the lengthy writing :-)
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
[+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
Uri Noy <urinoy@SPAM_DECOY_PLEASE_IGNORE.ibm.net> wrote:
: Dionysios, you force me to answer point by point.
Mr.Noy, you fail to answer any point. Not only have you taken the liberty
to "snip and cut" points you wish to ignore, you fail to indicate where
you have taken the liberty to do so. Again, I congratulate you on your
(pathetic) attempt at propaganda.
: although i suspect the information i write is absolutely wasted on you,
: i KNOW there are other readers who, like me, are happy to gain more
: knowledge and better understanding of important and/or interseting
: historical facts.
Again, more personal attacks. This is indicative of your inability to come
up with any documented FACTS. Your entire response to me is based entirely
on OPINIONS/PROPAGANDA.
: so i share my knowledge and learn from others. you probably don't, but
: i'll ignore it. i can't change you and others like you.
Yes, please spew your propaganda in a vain attempt to describe Israel as a
state with "morals". A state which has been caught a large number of times
spying on allies, murdering political opponents outside its borders, etc.
:>Yes, I'm sure the fact that you BOUGHT or STOLE (nuclear) technology has
:>nothing to do with it.
Notice what I stated (*FACTS*), and what you responded with (*OPINION*). I
don't need to hear your excuses about how "legitimate" the Israeli actions
were/are. Is the above statement I made TRUE or not? Thank you. The
propaganda needed to excuse such actions is a waste of bandwidth.
: ok, first, unlike saddam who "needed" weapons of mass destruction to enhance
Why do you need to mention SADDAM to excuse Israeli action that took place
decaded before he even came to power?
: his personal ability to attack his neighbour, Iran, and his rebelious
: oppressed kurdish citizens, israel, in the 50s-60s was under a very real
Yes, Saddam (like every other "madman") wanted nuclear weaponry to use
against his own people!? It is extremely *LOW* on your part and on every
Israeli to pretend to have an interest in the living conditions of the
Kurds. If you object to Saddam's policy against the Kurds, then why do you
have such a great relationship with Turkey which has a similar (if not
worse) record against the Kurds?
: threat of total destruction by it's aggressive neighbours, unwilling to
: accept it very existance, and i remind you we're talking about the tiny
There are quite a few countries in similar situations. You don't see them
all acquiring nukes. But of course not.. the US and "others" would slap an
embargo against that state. Can't compare those "backward" states to the
technologicaly advaced Israeli state! (smell the sarcasm)
: israel of before the 6-days-war!! , in which israel's width, from sea
: to border was , along a strip a bit north from tel-aviv only 10 miles
: !! , check the maps in the history books if you don't believe me. and
: that's in the middle of israel.
Big stinking deal! Hellas has the narrowest NATO border (check the map of
Thrace, south of Bulgaria), durring the entire cold war. We didn't use
that as an excuse for any militarist or expansionist plots (like you did
for the creation of "security zones"). Fact is, Israel is in violation of
a number of UN resolutions. Fact is, Israel has occupational forces in a
neighboring sovereign state. I don't wish to hear your pathetic excuses as
to why Israel was justified in doing so.
: you're greek. imagine that at the eastern end o the korinthos canal there's
: land, and the turkish army is there, and in the eastern neighbourhoods of
: athens too, and that the italians are your enemies too. nice eh :-)
Hellas has been in that situation. What is your point? We fought WW2 with
an enemy along our entire border (and these were WW2 Italians, Bulgarians,
and Germans). So don't ask me to "cry" for your state. With the billions
of dollars you get from the US (I'm still waiting for a tank you card, me
being a US tax payer), you should be the last to complain.
[snip]
: israel had every moral right to do what ever possible to protect itself.
Like starting wars (because we "knew" they were about to attack), or
invading neighbors ("we are so small we need buffer zones"). Kind of
reminds me of Hitler's cry for "breathing room" for his German nation.
[snip]
: i'm only guessing, but i think there are characteristics which a people, a
: nation, develops along the centuries, millenia in the jewish case, of
Let's all hear it for the cultural superiority of the Jews!
: its path
: in history. take the british for example, a fine nation indeed. and their
: american 'branch' . and us, jews, FORCED by 2000 years of exile to develop a
: strong habit of studying, learning, excelling. and that brings me to
: responding to your next point...
Oh yes... the "fine" British. A barbaric state, who's claim to fame was
the exploitation of a number of nations and races. What exactly has
Britain to show us prior to her colonial period? But I suppose slave
trading, and oppression of people in their native lands is something you
value. Let's all hear it for the brave attempt at brown-nosing for support
in this debate. If personal attacks don't work, "brownie points" just
might.
Incidently, I'm still waiting for an appology for the British oppression
in Cyprus, and their role in the civil war that broke out in post-WW2
Hellas.
:>An American (who happened to be Jewish) developed Intel in the US, with
:>American (non-Jewish included I imagine) workers and developers, and this
:>makes it an "Israeli R&D group"! Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Intel
:>OLDER than the state of Israel? Incidently, I have an AMD processor.
:
: you don't understand it, don't you. i'll explain again, in simple words.
: INTEL, an american hi-tech company, established one of it's main R&D centers
Great. You said it... AMERICAN, *NOT* Israeli! Like most US companies,
they have R&D centers, production facilities, service centers, and
what-not in a NUMBER of countries outside the US. I'll snip your pathetic
claims of Jewish "super-human" abilities in the technology field.
: but that's irrelevant to the current subject and it's probably beyond your
: grasp Dionysios )
Again, another reflection on your inability to converse in a civilized
mannor. Judging by the way Israel deals with its neighbors (civilized and
all), you are excused.
: so when i said "israeli R&D group" i meant exactly that, hundreds or R&D
: people, israelis, and that's only one R&D center. almost every american and
: japanese hi-tech giant corporation now has such a R&D center in israel.
: i think it says something, and supports what i said before.
Yes, that Israelis are geneticaly superior becuase of their millennia of
education and culture. Get over yourself. Cause you have some chip on your
sholder, and one is bound to knock it.
:>Which dictator? The ones the US put in power, or the ones Britain and
:>France put there?
:
: come on, i said who i meant, adolf hitler. do you suggest hitler was a
Adolf Hilter (please capitalize a person's name) was ELECTED to office.
: british puppet? come on, it's too ignorant childish and stupid of you
: to suggest it.
I never suggested such a thing. But, once again, thank you for your
complements.
: why don't you just go and read a good introductory book about the history of
: germany between WW1 and WW2 ? you might learn some basic facts.
Thank you very much. I suggest you read a book on the actions of Hellas in
the war, and then talk you ingrate Zionist.
: as for the nature of power-politics the US played in the 20th century, i can
: only say 2 things: relative to the power politics played by dictatorships (
There was no dictatorship (post-WW2) not put in place either by the US/UK
or Soviet Union. And those put in place by the US/UK were just as ruthless
(if not more so) than those established by the USSR.
: each at its own scale ) , american power politics it almost a child's game.
: second, considering its mighy power, american leaders, especially after
: vietnam, are playing a relatively fair game, and are affected by moral
: principles more then ever in human history.
I guess you never heard of Iran-Contra, Grenada, Panama, El Salvador, etc.
which all took place after Vietnam.
: i can only appreciate them for it. it's much better than most other
: leaders in history ever did.
Are you attempting to excuse British Colonialism and American Imperialism
as a "humanist" policy? I suggest you open a book about the British crimes
in Cyprus (or Malta or other colonies) to prevent the "break-up" of their
empire. Or you can visit N.Ireland for that matter.
:>Did Germany even have a method to deploy such a weapon to the Americas? Of
:>course not,
:
: of course YES!! they DID, you ignorant fool. considering german leadership in
Again thank you for your kind words.
: rocketry in the 40s, the germans had plans to develop an ICBM, a succesor to
They had... PLANS?! When did Germany start using the V-2?
: their V-2 balistic rocket. and there's no doubt the V-2 would have been
: quickly followed by a (nuclear) V-3 or V-4, capable of reaching the US east
First off, the German nuclear project had failed well prior to the end of
the war. Your pathetic OPINIONS about "V-3 or V-4" (please provide us with
FACTS) are groundless. When were those models supposed to enter service
(considering when the V-2 entered, and the long period it took to develop
it)? What... 1950, or 1960?? More weak and unsupported propaganda, but I
wouldn't expect less from you.
: coast. and if that's not enough, german submarines could easily deliver a
: nuclear device to ANY point along the US coast, a nuclear time-bomb, and
Have you seen the size of the first 2 US bombs? Have you seen the size of
a German U-boat? How exactly would they bring it to the US... would they
strap it on top as if they were going on a long extended weekend??? By
1945 (or even '44), how many German subs could survive such a mission to
the Americas? But... you have a weak pathetic THEORY to excuse an actual
FACT (that is, the development and use of a nuclear device).
: explode it. missiles are not the only way you know... and there's no way the
: US navy could stop them which the technology of that time. it took the
You are right... the German subs could not be stopped by the USN and CG
during WW2. Thank you for your revisionist view of history.
: american decades, and many bilions, to be able to monitor the ocean for
: submarine presence as they can monitor the sky for aircraft and missiles, and
: even so it takes a huge, very expensive effort to do it.
: so have no doubt, if hitler had a nuclear bomb, he would have no problem in
: destroying new york or washington with it.
Umm... and you are making thise claim based on... WHAT? Nothing but pure
opinion and propaganda, on a fictitious claim, based solely on theories
and prejudice.
:>but that is not what they teach you in Propaganda 101.
:
: the best "propaganda" is when the true facts are at your side, and you don't
: need to lie. i stick to facts. no need for propaganda :-)
WHAT FACTS? You have yet to provide this discussion with any facts
WHATSOEVER!
:>like the fact that you are ignoring the use of the bomb against a state
:>that did not have such technology.
:
: oh, that's a very easy point. a simple calculation clearly shows that unless
More propaganda. Show me the calculation.
: the US dropped the bomb on japan, many milions, most of them japanse
: civilians, would have been killed, and japan would have been destroyed.
: so no doubt dropping the bomb was well worth it, in terms of SAVING human
: lives. and i'm not referring yet to the indirect life-saving effect it had by
: preventing a third world war between stalin and NATO, prevented thanks to the
: terrible image of the destructive power of the bomb, effectively demonstrated
: in hirosima and nagasaki.
That is not what your JEWISH hero Oppenheimer thought about the use of the
bomb on Japan (as did Einstein). And again... more OPINIONS and THEORIES!
Who told you that having the "bomb" prevented a third world war? Communism
was growing at an ever increasing rate all around the world. Wars broke
out around the world, just like Korea. These are just a *FEW* FACTS. You
have yet to provide *1* fact to support any of your claims.
:>Pathetic propaganda. Where is Nasser's nuclear arsenal? And if you want to
:>talk about "democracy", talk about the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, the
:>millions of refugees, and the forced subhuman living conditions of the
:>ghettos of Gaza and the West Bank.
:
: not a bit of propaganda. Nasser had no nukes, only a military force
So now he has no nukes... not what you originaly claimed.
: MANY times larger than that of israel, and better equipped, and in
: addition he had an ongoing project to develop biological and
: sub-nuclear missiles.
Where are these projects TODAY? Claiming that one had "projects" does not
make something a reality. Where is the ACTUAL THREAT of mass destruction
Israel is afraid of? And please don't say that your neighbors have the
ability to manufacture chemical/biological weapons, because I'm gonna
laugh. Most countries (including my own) have such an ability. Where are
the stockpiles and delivery systems, and tell me if Israel doesn't already
match those numbers and/or systems.
: ( gladly, unlike the israeli project, the egyptian project was totally based
: on ex-nazi scientists, who were scared away by MOSSAD. being german, they
: wanted to work for nasser, not to die for him )
: so by the time israel advanced toward getting the bomb, in was actually in an
: arms race. this i believe enhanced its moral right to work to get the bomb.
Hellas is in an "arms race" with Turkey. Does that give Hellas the "moral
right" to acquire a nuclear device? Does it give Hellas the right to
threaten total annihilation by use of nuclear weapons, of any of its
neighbors?
: ethnic cleansing. HA!, there are too many details to mention here, so i'll
: just mention some.
Don't need them. Look up Amnesty International and Helsinki Watch reports
(as well as UN resolutions) as to what has and is taking place in
Palestine. Your propaganda is wasted on me... I trust better sources of
information (and PLEASE don't take that as a personal insult).
[snip]
: israel was never smart or dirty enough to use such propaganda.
You talked about the "1 million Arabs" of Israel. If that is so, why does
your propaganda machine call your state the "Jewish State". Hey Americans,
why don't you follow Israel's example and call the US the "WASP State"!
I'm sure that this would make non-WASP's (much like the Arabs of Israel)
feel like "equal citizens".
[snip]
:>More propaganda. If Israel lost a war, its citizens would not be murdered.
:
: you sound very sure of yourself. well i'm not so sure as you about this
You sound very sure of YOURSELF. Provide FACTS that prove that such action
would take place. You are simply posting your OPINION once again.
: question. actually, considering the way the arabs massacre their own brothers
: makes me doubt it very much. and it's my life in question here. not yours.
Like Jews don't massacre their "own brothers". We all know about the
"love" between the various Jewish religious "clans"
(Conservative/"Orthodox"/etc.)
: i prefer to stick to the assumption that israel can't afford to lose a war,
: and act accordingly, which israel does, but pursuing military supeiority AND
: peace.
Military superiority by wasting *MY* money (and other US tax payers). And
don't excuse this policy with more propaganda (types like "best allies in
the region", "many Jews in the States pay taxes", etc.). There are many
such nationalities in the States (with their own countries that have
secutiry issues), and none get the aid Israel does.
:>But I like the way you write... very effective against brain-washed
:
: thank you, but it' actually quite easy when historical truth and basic facts
: support your position.
I'm still waiting for *1* fact or truth to come out your mouth (or off
your keyboard).
:>individuals. And if they already "lost the war", and "most of its 5
:>million citizens (were) murdered", what would the "bomb" do to keep them
:>"alive" (as you state)? Please tell me what logic you use when you come to
:>such conclusions.
:
: ah, another easy question. you don't drop the bomb after you lost the
: war. you use, or threat to use it before you lose the war, and by doing
: so change the course of the war in your favor :-) if there's no other way.
If Israel is losing the war, where would these foreign troops be at
(geographically speaking)? Inside the Israeli borders, right? Would you
use these weapons within your own borders (and thus kill your own
civilians as well)? Or are you simply stating (as I already did), that if
you were to lose a war, you would take a toll on the civilian populations
of neighboring states (after you made the threat)? This is what Israel's
nuclear arsenal is for, and such policies are barbaric at best. With such
mentality nad such OFFICIAL POLICY, Israel and Israelis should be the
last to cry and complain about the policies of Hitler.
:>The ancient Hellenes and later Byzantines *LIBERATED* the lands by
:>defeating *NOT* the Jews, but the Persians and Arabs.
:
: oh dear, i almost can't type when i lauhg so much....
: this is LOW, Dionysios, real low, even for you.
: i'll ignore most of that silly incorrect claim of yours and focus in the last
: word. Arabs.
: arab presence anywhere north of (saudi-)arabia began only with islam,
: many CENTURIES AFTER the hellenic era ended, those are different historical
You are refering to the HELLENISTIC (not Hellenic) era. If you knew how to
read, you would have understood (read it again, I left it there for a
reason), that the ancient Hellenes (of Alexander the Great) liberated the
lands from the Persians, and the Byzantines the same lands from the Arabs.
Do you know *WHEN* the Byzantine Empire existed?
: times, do you understand what i'm saying ? and the turkish empire which
: fought and defeated the Byzantines and occupied greece, the turks are
: not arabs at all, only muslims, and that was even ceturies later.
: please, i won't bother to answer SUCH ignorance much longer.
: please, make an effort to enhance your arguments.
You are truly an uneducated individual. When the Crusades (and prior)
liberated the "Holy Lands", whom do you think they liberated them from?
The answer is... the ARABS. Do you know WHO took part in the Crusades, and
who controlled those lands after they were liberated? Come on... it starts
with a B...
:>In fact, any
:>historian will tell you about the cultural and economic development
:>durring the Hellenistic period (after Alexander the Great).
:
: true, i agree. but it's not me who accused the greek of oppression, it was
: someone else. i acknokledge and appreciate the hellenic culture.
Is that why the Jews still celebrate Hunukkah?
:>the reason I'm singling out the Jews is because of their racist
:>continuation of celebrating "Hanukkah".
:
: rasict? come on. "hanuka" celebrates achieving independence from a foreign
: conqueror ( the hellenic empire in this case ) by a successful rebelion and
Were the Jews independent *PRIOR* to the Hellenic conquest of the area? Of
course not. Did the Hellenes impose the viewing of the King as being that
of a "deity" much like the Persians did? And please tell us how
"successful" this rebelion was, considering the re-conquest of the area
by other foreign armies (Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Turks, Arabs).
: war. its' the most common form of of national celebration worldwide. nothing
: racist about it. besides, it's quite clear that you don't really understand
: the term "rasicm" , but i'm not going to waste one word explaining it
: you you, you're too dumb to understand the difference.
Hmm.. now I'm "too dumb". If it weren't coming from you, I might just take
it as an insult.
:>Aren't the candles indicative of the victory of the Jewish faith over the
:>"darkness" of Hellenic culture?
:
: no. actually using a physical object, like the wooden cross for example, as a
: symbol closely linked to the event it symbolizes, is a very common human
: behaviour.
You are lying. That is exactly what is symbolizes, much like the cross
symbolizes the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior for us.
[snip your comments on Christianity]
: kicked out of there, to symbolize restoration of jewish customs
: prohibited by the hellenic oppressors, and to symbolize the restored
: jewish independence.
More lies and propaganda. During the Hellenistic Era, all religions and
cultures were tolerated. The Rabbis and leaders of the Jews saw the appeal
Hellenic culture and customs had on their people, and feared of the
"consequences" (much like Jews of America who are "Jews" by virtue of
their... circumcision)! What independence was restored? When did the
previous Jewish state exist? More lies and more propaganda...
: ( freedom of the faith is now considered a basic human right, oppression can
: be defined as denial of human rights ) so you see. nothing racist about it.
Provide then facts of religious oppression during the Hellenistic period.
Otherwise, you are spewing more lies.
:>Please don't hurt my feelings! You Israelis might get so annoyed, you
:>might stop wearing Hellenic fisherman caps, and listening to Glykeria!
:
: this is becoming rediculous. not only we waste our money in the host country,
: buying all sort of silly stuff, like all tourists do, enhancing the
: economy of the host country... you have negative attitude to the fact
: that we adopt and like parts of greek culture.
You "waste" money in the host country. You have a serious attitude
problem, and I suggest you stick to your desert state.
: first, what's so bad about it? the world is more international than ever.
: second, few greek singers do what decades of efforts and several wars failed
: to do, make jews accept some greek culture. you should be happy, you idiot !
Haha.. more propaganda. Jews embraced Hellenic culture (as they even do
today), and that is what scares Zionists like yourself. What decades or
efforts and wars took place (and WHEN) that attempted to impose of make
Jews "accept" Hellenic culture? You are uneducated, and on top of that
unable to carry a conversation without resorting to name-calling.
[snip excuses for death of Jesus]
:>also call up the ADL and report an "anti-Semite" like myself.
:
: you're not an anti-semitic. that's another term you don't understand.
I do. It is Jews who label anti-Israeli opinions and positions as
"anti-Semitic". They are the ones who fail to notice that the Arabs (their
close "friends") are also a Semitic people.
: true. not even you. you just suffer from severe ignorance and the resulting
: close-minded narrow "thought".
: i can wildly guess you're ignorance is the result of reading playboy in
: history lessons at school. which is understandable in some cases, but
: does not improve your knowledge and understanding of human history.
I'll let this stand with a simple "no comment".
:>Personal attacks! Great way to defend your point of you.
:
: Mr . Dionysios Pilarinos, i add the flavour of personal attacks only in
: addition to careful, fact based, expression of my point of view, and only
I'm still waiting for the FIRST FACT.
: bacause you, like others who use the freedom of internet to strongly express
: their know-it-all opinions in subjects they know nothing about, you
: simply deserve it. you are an ignorant who struggles to express an
: opinion based only on ignorance, so you deserve it.
We have a saying in Hellas. "Eipe o gaidaros ton peteino kefala", which
translates to "The jackass called the rooster a 'big-head'".
:>At least you won't send the IAF to bomb my house.
:
: no, but dictators like saddam hussein would, if they could, preferably
Iraq has never been caught of sending agents or planes to MURDER
opponents.
: nuclear, if they had one. but he does not have it coz MOSSAD sabotaged his
: first reactor, the IAF bombed the second, and US air power bombed the third.
: it's nice how it all links back to the original subject.
Quite nicely.
:>That's good compared to what the IDF's record is on targeting "enemies".
:
: the israeli air force actually makes great efforts to avoid hitting
: civilians, not only because it's a government policy, but also because
: pilots don't want murder of innocent civilians on their conscience. but
: you wan't believe me about this. although it's the simple truth.
"Makes great efforts". I love the way you phraze it, simply because you
KNOW that innocent civilians HAVE BEEN KILLED (MURDERED) - more facts.
Your "simple truth" is nothing but an opinion. As could be any assumption
about how all or any pilots feel.
: A note to OTHER readers:
Here we go with the excuses.
: First of all, i hope you find the facts and views i express enlighting and
: intersting. writing all this takes time and effort :-)
What FACTS?
: Second, i hope you don't think the 'treatment' Mr. Pilarinos is getting from
: me is too hard. not knowing things is acceptable. Mr. Pilarinos is not even
: living in the middle-east, so he does not have to be an expert in those
I have served in the Hellenic military, Cyprus *IS* in the "middle east",
so your points (OPINIONS) are once again flawed.
: matters. i admit i know very little about the history of south-american
: countries. i'm not proud of it, but its acceptable, you can't know it all.
: But not knowing AND repeately expressing know-it-all views based mainly on
: deep ignorance is unforgivable. and that's what Mr. Pilarinos does.
: so i think he deserves some of it.
More excuses. These are the cheap, unfounded OPINIONS (*NOT* FACTS) you
use to excuse official Israeli actions as well. Quite pathetic if you wish
to win a debate.
: oh, and sorry for the lengthy writing :-)
: Uri Noy
: ISRAEL
--
..-------[+=]----------[ Dionysios Pilarinos ]----------[+=]-------.
Gregory Deych
Our Greek friend has apparently redefined facts as opinions that he
holds. Everybody's else facts are their opinions. Well, that's just
fine.
On 2 Mar 1998 16:46:32 GMT, [+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
<dpil...@hellas.org> wrote:
>
>More excuses. These are the cheap, unfounded OPINIONS (*NOT* FACTS) you
>use to excuse official Israeli actions as well. Quite pathetic if you wish
>to win a debate.
>
>: oh, and sorry for the lengthy writing :-)
>: Uri Noy
>: ISRAEL
-
Gregory Deych
"My Kung-fu is the best!"
Please delete the .rve portion from my e-mail address.
[+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
Gregory Deych <gde...@worldnet.att.net.rve> wrote:
: Our Greek friend has apparently redefined facts as opinions that he
: holds. Everybody's else facts are their opinions. Well, that's just
: fine.
First off, I'm a Hellene. Second, would you like to perhaps QUOTE some of
the FACTS Mr.Noy has presented? I guess not, and that is why you chose to
not quote anything he wrote.
:>More excuses. These are the cheap, unfounded OPINIONS (*NOT* FACTS) you
:>use to excuse official Israeli actions as well. Quite pathetic if you wish
:>to win a debate.
: Gregory Deych
--
..-------[+=]----------[ Dionysios Pilarinos ]----------[+=]-------.
Damien Burke
Just a few random interjections first...
On 2 Mar 1998 16:46:32 GMT, [+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
<dpil...@hellas.org> wrote:
>Oh yes... the "fine" British. A barbaric state, who's claim to fame was
>the exploitation of a number of nations and races. What exactly has
>Britain to show us prior to her colonial period?
Have you ever seen that Monty Python sketch? You know, the "What
have the Romans ever done for us?" one. You should.
>Adolf Hilter (please capitalize a person's name) was ELECTED to office.
And therefore not a dictator? An okay guy perhaps?
>Have you seen the size of the first 2 US bombs? Have you seen the size of
>a German U-boat? How exactly would they bring it to the US... would they
>strap it on top as if they were going on a long extended weekend???
Why not. If you can put a hangar on the back of a U-boat with an
aircraft inside it, a bomb would hardly be a problem. I take it
you've never seen any of the U-boat tankers either - now *they*
were somewhat larger than the average U-boat.
[snip the rest, I'm bored]
You both have good points to make but it's a pity you're burying
them in between insults and wild accusations; count to 10 and
think about it a bit for a while?
Uri Noy
In article <3501049f...@news.demon.co.uk>, news_...@jetman.demon.co.u wrote:
>>Oh yes... the "fine" British. A barbaric state, who's claim to fame was
>>the exploitation of a number of nations and races.
so successfully, as the british nation. i will not specify further, but i can.
>>What exactly has Britain to show us prior to her colonial period?
prior to the colonial period, hmmm, that's early.. william shakespere :-)
>Have you ever seen that Monty Python sketch? You know, the "What
>have the Romans ever done for us?" one. You should.
of course i've seen it, a great one, a must see for judeans (i mean israelis)
>>Adolf Hilter (please capitalize a person's name) was ELECTED to office.
having elections is just one side of the coin, of democracy. a significantly
more imporant condition is having periodical elections, in which the people
can throw away the leaders they elected last time.
Hitler had no intention of allowing that. it's well documented, and the
process in which he quickly ensured no further elections will happen, can
be described with the words: fast, talented, and VERY brutal.
there was not a hint of democracy in the third reich, immediately after Hitler
was elected kanzler.
>>Have you seen the size of the first 2 US bombs? Have you seen the size of
>>a German U-boat?
yes, and therefore it's obvious that a submarine, especially the larger subs
the nazis had, could have easily been modified to take the bomb to america.
>Why not. If you can put a hangar on the back of a U-boat with an
>aircraft inside it, a bomb would hardly be a problem.
how imaginative and resourceful, but that's not what i meant.
>You both have good points
Yes, Mr Pilarinos has "good" points too, their only problem is that they are
views which are not based on facts. but thanks for the opinion.
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
Uri Noy
In article <6denp8$j...@news9.noc.netcom.net>, [+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
>Mr.Noy, you fail to answer any point. Not only have you taken the liberty
>to "snip and cut" points you wish to ignore, you fail to indicate where
>you have taken the liberty to do so.
before i answer it, just leave one-two 'reference' quote lines for readers to
identify the point i'm answering too. there was no intention of "snip and cut"
i have no problem whatsoever in answering to all of your claims so far with
fact based answers, and again, i'm just not doing any propaganda, just
countering your not-based-on-facts claims with true facts. that's all.
>Again, more personal attacks.
i clearly explained Sir why i think you deserve them.
>Yes, please spew your propaganda in a vain attempt to describe Israel as a
>state with "morals".
I realize that when you see israeli soldiers firing ( rubber bullets, not live
ammo ) at demostrators it looks bad.
what you don't see on TV is that a large part of israeli voters did'nt like it
either and therefore since 1992 MOST of those demonstrators are now under
self-gorenment of Mr. Arafat.
what you probably ignore on TV, is the other side of that protest, the suicide
bombs in israeli busses. those bombs are NOT made of non-lethal rubber bullets
and tear gas, they're made of explosives and metal fragmets and kill many.
Israel is, generally, a very moral country, there are exceptions of course,
but israeli soldiers hate 'policing' arab population, they hate shooting at
civilians, our pilots make great efforts to avoid hitting civilians when they
drop their bombs on terrorist camps ( many of which are deliberately placed
near or within civilian population coz of it ), and in general, israel always
made an effort to minimize civilian casualties, sometimes even if it meant
more casualties to the IDF. believe it if you want.
>A state which has been caught a large number of times
>spying on allies,
yeah, yeah, and the CIA never spied on allies, sure, and every other
intelligence service in the world either. sure.... THEY ALL DO !!
I do agree that the two last mossad failures in Amman and Bern should'nt have
happened and if you did'nt know, the head of mossad has resigned last week
after an investigation, because of it.
>murdering political opponents outside its borders, etc.
the "bad people" usually don't get punished for their crimes, only soldiers
and civilians usually pay the terrible price for what those people do.
in the munich olympic games in 1972, 11 israeli sportsman were murdered by
terrorists (outside their borders too) ). israeli PM ordered mossad to find
out who were both the terrorists who did it, and those who SENT them to
perform this crime, and assasinate them. both as a just punishment, and as
deterrent, to make terrorist leaders think again before oredering such crimes.
those terrorists and terorist leaders were then hunted down one by one and
paid for their personal part in commiting that crime.
in 1973 an israeli commando team landed the beach in beirut and was taken by
mossad agents to the specific addresses of several of those terrorist leaders.
they were all killed, oh, btw, they were all armed, none of them was a
peaceful civilian killed by mistake if you worried about it.
one of the commandos who participated in this commando assasination raid was a
young officer named A.Levin . he's now a general, commander of the IDF's
northern command, in charge of fighting hezballa terrorists in lebanon.
three days ago he was promoted to deputy head of MOSSAD, in charge of
operations. i'm sure he knows how terrorists who murder peaceful civilians
should be treated, and i'm sure mossad will continue to do this MORAL
retaliation activities to punish murderers and deter others.
>Notice what I stated (*FACTS*), and what you responded with (*OPINION*). I
>don't need to hear your excuses about how "legitimate" the Israeli actions
>were/are. Is the above statement I made TRUE or not? Thank you. The
>propaganda needed to excuse such actions is a waste of bandwidth.
ok, it's a fact that israel bought,deceived,and stole to get nuclear stuff.
but that israel was under a threat of total annihilation in the 50s-60s is
also a fact. whether it was moral for israel to get nuclear to ensure it's
survival is a question of moral gudgement, but i believe the fair, objective,
answer, is obvious.
>Why do you need to mention SADDAM to excuse Israeli action that took place
>decaded before he even came to power?
i only gave the saddam example to show how dictators steal/buy nuclear stuff
for quite the opposite reasons.
btw, this week is exactly 10 years after the iraqi air force, under saddam's
orders, bombed the town of halavja, in iraq, and murdered thousands of IRAQI
CITIZENS !!, with cyanide gas and mustard gas. thousands died instantly, and
many survivors developed cancers, and produced genetically deformed children.
the effect, says a british expert, is similar to that which was about 1km from
ground zero in hiroshima ( QUOTE from CBS TV, not my imagination ).
and he did that to his own civilians !!!
again, it's not an excuse for moral israeli actions years before, just an
example of the other side of the coin of unconventional weapons.
>Israeli to pretend to have an interest in the living conditions of the
>Kurds.
Israel helped the kurds as much as it could in the 60s-70s until helping
became impossible. israeli mossad agents, military advisors, and agricultural
experts, came to the kurdish rebel area and supported the kurds as much as
possible. so the answer is YES. in addition, unlike you, I, personally find
murdering people by gas horrible, especially when they are civilians murdered
by their own dictatorial government. being an israeli is irrelevant here. it's
a terrible crime, a mass murder, and i hate it.
>If you object to Saddam's policy against the Kurds, then why do you
>have such a great relationship with Turkey which has a similar (if not
>worse) record against the Kurds?
it's not uncommon that country A has good relations with both bountries B and
C although B and C are hostile or are least dislike each other.
for example: both greece and turkey are members in nato although they dislike
each other. in the same way israel both helped the kurds in the 60s-70s and
has good relations with turkey in the 80s-90s , so there's even a time
difference here.
>There are quite a few countries in similar situations.
>You don't see them all acquiring nukes.
give examples please... ( oh, and is any of them advanced enough to even
consider becoming nuclear? )
>technologicaly advaced Israeli state! (smell the sarcasm)
no sarcasm, even a country in trouble have to be advanced enough to become
nuclear, regardless of its moral justification.
>> israel of before the 6-days-war!! , in which israel's width, from sea
>> to border was , along a strip a bit north from tel-aviv only 10 miles
>> !! , check the maps in the history books if you don't believe me. and
>> that's in the middle of israel.
>Big stinking deal! Hellas has the narrowest NATO border (check the map of
>Thrace, south of Bulgaria), durring the entire cold war.
true, but it's a different case. if the communists invaded Thrace, they'd
still be far enough from Thesaloniki for the greek army to defend it and
they'll still be hundereds of KM from athens, the capital.
a very different case. besides, the cold war remained cold, unlike the
israeli-arab conflict with its series of wars and terrorism acts.
>We didn't use that as an excuse for any militarist or expansionist plots
neither did israel. israel begged for the world's diplomatic assistance in
may-june 1967, and only when it was obvious that we're alone and about to be
attacked by the full power of the mighty egyptian army and the syrian and
jordanians too, that israel launched a preemptive strike.
> Fact is, Israel is in violation of a number of UN resolutions.
not exactly. the UN resolutions after the 1967 six-days-war called for israel
to retreat from occupied territories in return for peace agreements.
soon after those resolutions wre declared, the arab leauge decided that no
negotiations will be made with israel whatsoever and what was lost will be
taken back only by war. when this way of thought eventually changed, israel
DID return those territories.
we returned the entire sinay, much larger than israel itself, in return for
peace with egypt (1979) , we returned a significant part of the palestinian
areas to palestinian hands (Mr Arafat) (1992) and negotiations for more
retreats are continuing. we gave some very rich soil and amounts of water flow
to jordan, as a present, when we signed peace with it (1993)
there were, and maybe still are, and probably would be in the near future,
negotiations with syria for returning land to it. so you see, whenever we
COULD return occupied land, in return for peace, we did, and still do.
there's a UN resolution calling for the evacuation of the very narrow ( 3-8 km
) security strip israel holds in lebanese territory along the israeli-lebanese
border. lebanese foreign minister declared in the past that there will not be
any negotiations about giving a promise that the lebanese army will do
anything to prevent terror attacks in israeli territory after israel will
retreat. nowadays a new diplomatic effort is being done and maybe something is
changing. israel clearly declared, that it will retreat from this strip if any
security agreement is achieved. the israeli minister of defence is in france
now, negotiating it with french diplomatic support. satisfied ?
> So don't ask me to "cry" for your state.
i don't . i just repel false accusaions at it.
>With the billions of dollars you get from the US
it seems the US governments, one after the other, for years, think the US has
good reasons to give certain amounts of aid to various countries.
israel, egypt, russia, and others.
>(I'm still waiting for a tank you card, me being a US tax payer)
oh, we're grateful, be sure about that. and unlike other countries which
receive american aid, israel has VERY STRONG FRIENDLY TIES with the US, based
not only on strong strategic interests of both sides, but also on strong
cultural and other links. there's a true, deep, friendship between the US and
Israel, from both sides. and actually israel officially offered the US to
negotiate a gradual reduction of the aid along several years to prevent an
economical shake here. satisfied ?
> you should be the last to complain.
i'm not. we're not.
>> israel had every moral right to do what ever possible to protect itself.
>Like starting wars (because we "knew" they were about to attack)
check news broadcasts of the time, or read about it.
not only the egyptian army came to fully deployed attack position along the
israeli border in late may 1967, not only the egyptian government ordered UN
observers along the border to leave, so that they'll not be hit by the
expected fighting, not only jordan signed a "mutual defence" agreement with
egypt and put it's entire army under egyptian command, not only egypt closed
the tiran straights to shipping headed to israel, an act which israel made
very clear for years will be considered a reason for war ( coz it meant
putting us under siege ), not only arab laders called DAILY during that period
to start a war which will destroy israel completely , in addition, milions
participated in wild, mass demonstations in cairo calling for the final war vs
israel, and burning the US embassy for desert.
so i think i may safely say that we KNEW they were about to attack.
actually the world thought so too.
>invading neighbors ("we are so small we need buffer zones").
no, we need buffer zones to stop terrorists from killing civilians in our side
of the border because the sovereign government in the other side of the border
says it's does not care and would'nt do a thing to prevent terrorism is we
retreat from that buffer zone.
>reminds me of Hitler's cry for "breathing room" for his German nation.
i can see the similarity. if Hitler had stopped advancing in 1938, after
peacefully unifing all german speaking populations, he would have gained a
honorable place besides Bismark as a great german leader.
but the historical truth is that he planned to go to war long before it. he
clearly wrote about it in his book, written in 1923.
his idea of german "living space" actually meant enslaving the entire eastern
europe, and i mean enslaving ( check the history books, the nazis were
initially welcomed as liberators in russia and the ukraine, but after the
slavic peoples realized what the nazis planned for them ( i will not refer
here to what Hitler planned for the jews ... ) they started their stubborn
resistance. )
and that was only meant to be the first step in nazi occupation of the entire
world. megalomanic, yes, that's what he was, and it's well documented.
please read the excellent book "had hitler won the war" by Ralph Giordano.
1989. you might learn something. i did.
>Let's all hear it for the cultural superiority of the Jews!
i'm not saying or thinking we're superior, that's both childish AND not true,
i know well, being one :-) but you can clearly see differences between various
human cultures. take the japanese for example, and their strange ( in western
point of view ) cultural habits and behaviour.
>Great. You said it... AMERICAN, *NOT* Israeli! Like most US companies,
>they have R&D centers, production facilities, service centers, and
>what-not in a NUMBER of countries outside the US.
you still don't get it, don't you? regardless of the american OWNERSHIP of
that R&D center, the ideas and products are the products of the skill and
wisdom of the ISRAELI staff. american electronics are assmebled in malaysia
and other 3rd world countries, but R&D is done in israel.
i'm not going to explain it you you any further. you just don't understand.
i'm sure other readers understood my point the first time.
israeli technological level is acknowledged worldwide.
>claims of Jewish "super-human" abilities in the technology field.
nothing super human about it, we just hold a good position besides the US in
the hi-tech industry. and the americans are definitely not super human, so
we're not either. like them.
>Yes, that Israelis are geneticaly superior becuase of their millennia of
>education and culture.
you don't see the contradiction in your words, don't you?
there is a difference between education and genetics, between study and
generic inheritence.
>Adolf Hilter (please capitalize a person's name) was ELECTED to office.
yes, and as i said, once he was elected, he made sure no one will be given the
opportunity to be ELECTED as his successor. german post-WWI democracy ENDED
the day Hitler was elected. the nazi regime had not a hint of democracy in it.
it glorified dictarotship, and was one.
>I suggest you read a book on the actions of Hellas in
>the war,
i will before i start criticizing it, like you do at israel, but in this
particular case, since i personally support the greek struggle against the
nazis in WW2 , and the greek side in cypus, and like greece in general, i'm
not going to criticize it anyway, so i'll keep reading the greece and cypurs
travel guide i bought last week, instead.
>and then talk you ingrate Zionist.
er, ingrate to whom? to you ? HEHEHE
>There was no dictatorship (post-WW2) not put in place either by the US/UK
>or Soviet Union.
BEEP, wrong. one example: the dictatorships which took over egypt, sirya, and
iraq in the 50s, throwing the initial democratic regimes.
and the current irani regime of course.
>I guess you never heard of Iran-Contra, Grenada, Panama, El Salvador, etc.
nicaragua and el salvador were a nasty power play, from BOTH sides, i agree.
but in Grenada ( and you forgot Haiti ) the US restored democracy, with
minimal actual use of military power, more like threating to use it.
and panama? panama is now democratic thanks to the US use of force.
you just don't know a thing, don't you ?
>Are you attempting to excuse British Colonialism and American Imperialism
>as a "humanist" policy?
no, and regardless, the faith of africa since the 60s, a direct result of the
brutality and stupidity of the barbaric dictarotrs which threw the initial
democratic regimes all over africa after the colonials left, is a very very
sad example, of how local government can be 100 times worse than a colonial
one. especially the british colonial, which, i deduce from the books i read,
was the best one, in terms of the effort to invest in the colony and supprt
and advance the native/local population.
>They had... PLANS?! When did Germany start using the V-2?
yes, plans for improved models of successful operational missiles.
there's no doubt that if germany had the bomb the nazi ICBM would have been
operational. but since they did'nt have the bomb, the project was delyed,
because launching an ICBM with just a small conventional warhead is a total
waste of a huge amount of money and other resources, needed elsewhere,
especially in wartime.
>a German U-boat? How exactly would they bring it to the US...
inside the sub of course, no problem at all. just a modification.
> By
>1945 (or even '44), how many German subs could survive such a mission to
>the Americas?
at least one, right ? and one is enough.
regardless of what they did, german sub crews were very skilled and very
dedicated, and repeatedly sailed to the ocean to missions which were not
exactly suicide missions, but those sub crews knew better than anyone how
short their life expectancy was, due to the massive casualty percentage they
suffered. and still they bravely sailed again and again until sunk.
there's no doubt that a german u-boat, with a nuclear bomb in it, could reach
new york harbor one night, surface, and detonate, whether manually by a
suicide captain, or after a crew evacuation to another sub.
( given their dedication and known short life expectancy vs. US/BRITISH forces
i guess they would have found volunteers, saving the risk to 2nd rescue sub )
they could do it, at least for the first time, and manhatten and miss liberty
would have been vaporized to racioactive dust. have no doubt that they could,
IF they had the bomb. gladly they did'nt, so this remains a theoretical
debate.
>You are right... the German subs could not be stopped by the USN and CG
>during WW2. Thank you for your revisionist view of history.
there's a great difference between attacking a massively escorted convoy,
getting sunk while doing it, and between a quiet mission, similar to a recon
mission in which you keep away from the enemy forces instead of attacking
them. you just don't have the slightest understanding of tactics in the most
basic level. again, there's no doubt that a single, or two german subs could
have reached new york harbor without being detected on the way.
in WW2, unlike a sub in a hunt mission, which reveals its presence, a recon
sub, especially one in a special mission like this, could successfully reach
the US coast without being detected. and they did. so i'm not rewriting
history here. we're only speculating about how Hitler could use the bomb IF he
had it. that's all. but if he had, he could.
>:>but that is not what they teach you in Propaganda 101.
never took it, it's not one of the courses in israeli universities, or
american ones.
>: the best "propaganda" is when the true facts are at your side, and you don't
>: need to lie. i stick to facts. no need for propaganda :-)
>WHAT FACTS? You have yet to provide this discussion with any facts
>WHATSOEVER!
everything i wrote about israel and the middle east and other stuff here is
fully based on facts, as was acknowledged by OTHER readers who respond in this
thread or post my email box. the only hypothetical thing is the nazi bomb
debate, and even in it, i speculate fully based on facts.
>:>like the fact that you are ignoring the use of the bomb against a state
>:>that did not have such technology.
>: oh, that's a very easy point. a simple calculation clearly shows that unless
>: the US dropped the bomb on japan, many milions, most of them japanse
>: civilians, would have been killed, and japan would have been destroyed.
>: so no doubt dropping the bomb was well worth it, in terms of SAVING human
>: lives.
>More propaganda. Show me the calculation.
check it yourself, being an american as you say you are, it's probably easier
for you to find or ask for the exact figures about the numbers and types of
casualties, both american and japanese, in 1944-5, and the resulting
calculations of expected loss of life, in both sides, based on those
statistics.
if that's too dificult for you, just find the figures about the japanese
civilian losses in the almost daily bobmardment of japanese major cities by
hundreds of US bombers, armed mainly with fire bombs. attacks which resulted
in fire storms with magnitude which is not so far from the fire storm created
by a small nuclear bomb. and check the casualties in iwo jima and okinawa.
again, on both sides. AND JUST MULTIPLY , you ignorant idiot !!
>That is not what your JEWISH hero Oppenheimer thought about the use of the
>bomb on Japan
regardless of those figures, Mr. openheimer felt guilty that so many people
were killed and suffered by a machine he designed. it's quite understandable.
and his religion is irrelevant here.
>Who told you that having the "bomb" prevented a third world war?
it's a speculation of course, but not a wild one at all.
read some history, understand stalin, and figure out yourself.
>: addition he (egypt) had an ongoing project to develop biological and
>: sub-nuclear missiles.
>: ( gladly, unlike the israeli project, the egyptian project was totally >:
>: based
>: on ex-nazi scientists, who were scared away by MOSSAD.
>: so by the time israel advanced toward getting the bomb, in was actually in
>: an unconventional arms race.
>Where are these projects TODAY?
gone, due to mossad's success and the egyptian inability to continue without
the help of the nazi scientists. but in the 60s Nasser, the egyptian leader,
not only declared working on it but also paraded the missiles in cairo. you
can find the pictures in books and archives. so at that time the threat was
very real.
i can tell you about the mongol peril centuries ago and you can ask me where
it is today ... but the fact that mongolia is now a peacful place does not
change a bit the FACT that the mongols were a horrible threat in the far past.
so your point about where the egyptinan nuclear missiles project is TODAY is
simply irrelevant, it was there in the 60s and it was very real then.
i begin to think you have a certain difficulty in understanding historical
events in the perspective of their own time, as you should, and you mix past
and present when trying to understand the past. no wonder you get such mixed
opinions. please Mr. pilarinos, do try fo focus yourself, check your points
with a historical time scale diagram, compare year numbers, it will help you.
>Claiming that one had "projects" does not make something a reality.
true, but if one delcares he has a project and parades mid-development
products ( what is now called alpha-version or beta-version in the hi-tech
industry ) in his capital city, it's ok to believe it's real.
>Where is the ACTUAL THREAT of mass destruction
>Israel is afraid of? And please don't say that your neighbors have the
>ability to manufacture chemical/biological weapons, because I'm gonna
>laugh.
ok, i won't say it. others do, check the publications of the international
foundation for strategic studies in london UK.
everything is there. amounts, delivery systems, production ability, stocks
etc. i'm not inventing anything myself. only you think i am.
>and tell me if Israel doesn't already match those numbers and/or systems.
i sure hope it does, to deter the use of it by the other side.
as for the risk of unprovoked use of it by israel, it seems the world, even
the arabs themselves, are not too worried about such an option .
they well understand that israel ( or any other democracy for that matter )
will not use nukes to kill people without being given a VERY VERY good reason.
>Hellas is in an "arms race" with Turkey. Does that give Hellas the "moral
>right" to acquire a nuclear device?
the only risk to greece in case of a possible defeat in a possible war vs.
turkey, correct me if i'm wrong, is loss of some territory, and occupation or
deportation of the greek population in that territory.
but there's no risk or any turkish intention to completely conquer the entire
territory of greece and kill most of the greek population. right ?
in israel's case on the other hand, it's enemies clearly declared, repeatedly,
that that's exactly what they had in mind, and even repeatedly tried to do it.
quite a difference, isn't it? so i'm not going to judge whether it's moral
for greece to get nuclear, i think it would be moral , but i also think the
greek military itself does not think they might find themselves in a situation
which justifies the use of a nuclear weapon, for the above mentioned reasons.
i hope you can see the difference now.
>Don't need them. Look up Amnesty International and Helsinki Watch reports
>(as well as UN resolutions) as to what has and is taking place in
>Palestine.
ok, check what those reports have to say about how the new palestinian police
tortures their own brothers. similar so what i said earlier about how african
leaders treated their peoples worse then the colonials did.
most of that population is no longer in israeli control.
>You talked about the "1 million Arabs" of Israel. If that is so,
check any world fact book. and i'm not referring to the 2-3 milions of
occupied pop. most of which is now under Mr. Arafat's control.
>your propaganda machine call your state the "Jewish State".
it's called a jewish state for two reasons:
1. israel is the product of a UN resolution from 1947 which called for
creation of two countries, jewish, and palestinian, in what was then the
british mandate area. so israel is by definition a jewish state.
( the palestinian state was not formed back then because the arabs opposed the
UN resolution and preferred to attempt to destroy the newly formed jewish
state by war and create the palestinian state over the entire territory, the
attempt failed and so the palestinians had to wait 50 years of suffer until in
1992 Mr. arafat got smarter and agreed to negotiate with israel in order to
get back what the palestinians had back then )
2. more than 80% or israel's pop. ( don't know exactly how much above 80% )
are jews.
so israel is a jewish state de-facto AND by definition in a UN resolution.
satisfied ?
>:>More propaganda. If Israel lost a war, its citizens would not be murdered.
>: you sound very sure of yourself. well i'm not so sure as you about this
>You sound very sure of YOURSELF.
i am. facts support my claim.
>Provide FACTS that prove that such action would take place.
repeated declarations by arab leaders and the arab leauge, backed by
milion-strong demonstations in the streets of cairo and several wars, boycott,
and barbaric terrorism against civilians of all ages support my claim.
in addition to history, ask NOW any arab. just go to an arab chat room in IRC
and ask them for their side if you think i'm speculating. i asked them myself.
>Like Jews don't massacre their "own brothers".
er... where and when ? the last time jews fought each other was during the
roman siege on jerusalem 2000 years ago. the lesson of that stupidity was
obviously well learnt, due to it's terrible consequences. and the moto of
never fighting each other is one of the strongest basics of jewish heritage
since. even in 1948 when israel was just formed and after Mr. Rabin's murder
by an extremist, it was clear ( and repeatedly declared by political leaders )
that regardless of the disagreements, israelis will not fight each other
because that would be our end.
>We all know about the "love" between the various Jewish religious "clans"
>(Conservative/"Orthodox"/etc.)
not much love here, especially when political power and budgets are at stake,
but there's a great difference between that and massacring brothers.
i hope you can see the difference. can you ?
>(israeli) Military superiority by wasting *MY* money (and other US tax payers).
again, as explained above, a long line of US presidents and senates thought
israel is under a military threat and that there's a strong american interest
in helping israel to maintain it's military power.
the american interests in a strong israeli military are subject to another
discussion, i referred to it in another thread. i'll only say that ONE of the
arguments for it is that the US considers israel as some kind of insurance,
that if something REALLY bad happens in the middle east ( the saudi regime is
shaky and might one day fall, like the irani shah did, and the world's oil
supply might be in the hands of a new government which would consider saddam
and/or the irani ayatullahs their good friends and mentors and the US a common
enemy, how about this? a nightmare, right, but not impossible at all ).. if
something real bad happens in the middle east, israel, and it's territory and
airbases are the only SURE foot hold for american forces in the entire region.
there's not a single country in the entire region, except israel, which the US
can really trust in case of real trouble. so we're apparently an "insurance"
worthy of an investment.
or at least that's what senators congressmen and presidents think.
certainly not a waste of american tax payer's money.
and there are other arguments, some of them purely moral...
>secutiry issues), and none get the aid Israel does.
many countries around the world receive US aid, i suppose american budget
makers decide how much to give each one according to US interests, and btw,
since it made peace with israel, egypt receives the same amount of aid.
>I'm still waiting for *1* fact or truth to come out your mouth (or off
>your keyboard).
i do it all the time, your intelectual blindness is sad.
>This is what Israel's nuclear arsenal is for
i answered that more than once in this thread, in this and past articles.
>mentality nad such OFFICIAL POLICY, Israel and Israelis should be the
>last to cry and complain about the policies of Hitler.
i'll leave it to others who read this to judge your moral guidelines...
>Do you know WHO took part in the Crusades, and
>who controlled those lands after they were liberated?
oh yes, sure. i can even name one of the crusaders. Richard "Lion heart" the
king of england. and there were french, and germans, abd italians, and basicly
the crusaders came from western europe, they got very little help whatsoever
from the byzantine empire which was busy defending itself. it was mainly a
west european effort.
>Were the Jews independent *PRIOR* to the Hellenic conquest of the area?
>Of course not.
HEHEHE, gosh it's so funny, the nonsence you right. and to be more serious...
of course YES, and now your ignorance is obvious bigtime.
have you read the bible ? it's value is not only cultural and religious you
know? it's also, basicly, a HISTORY BOOK, describing the history of israel and
it's neighbours in the ancient times. it's full of FACTS, like the names of
kings, cities, wars, times, territories, etc. oh, and before you say they're
not FACTS, the entire middle east, like greece, is full of archeological sites
and stuff which verifies so many biblical stories as true historical events.
check the excellent book "the bible as history" by verner keller ( not a jew i
think, sounds like a german name to me ) translated to hebrew in 1958, so it's
from the 50s. find a copy, it's a gem of a book, describing the main
archeological findings in the middle east in the late 19th century and the
first half of the 20th century, and how they all fit magnificently to biblical
stories, with many examples.
Israel became a NATION ( by any definition you use ), long before the roman
times, before the hellenistic times, and definitely much long before anyone
heard of the arabs outside arabia.
Israel became an orgazined INDEPENDENT STATE ( by any definition you want,
with central government, military, law, tax system, diplomatic relations etc )
somewhat later, but still long before all of the above.
have you ever heard of king David ? our second king? i'm sure you did.
i checked the above mentioned book "the bible as history" for dates and here
it is :
the israelis crowned their first king, Saul, at about 1050 BC,
he was followed by his son-in-law David, which was followed by his son
Solomon.
after solomon's death in 926 BC, the kingdom was divided to two kingdoms (
like the 2 korea's etc. ) the names of those two kingdoms were "Judea"
( jew-dea for you, meaning the jewish kingdom ) and "Israel" .. a familiar
name too.
independence continued for 460 years ( that's twice the length of american
independence ) until the occupation by the overwhelming forces of the empire
of babel. after 50 years, a full autonomy to jews, including making laws, was
restored, under the persian empire which replaced babel. i'm sure you as a
greek heard of the persians.
the restoration happened in 537 BC, 47 years before advancing persian forces
were stopped by the greek forces in marathon in 490 BC.
Alexander conquered the persian empire and died in 323 BC, his less talented
successors opressed not only the jews but almost everyone else.
the book quotes the historian Polibius who wrote that his contemporary,
empreror Antiochus the 4th "Epifanes" looted most of the temples in his
empire.. so i guess not only jews were oppressed .
in 164 BC, after about 150 years of hellenistic occupation, full sovereign
jewish regime was restored in the rebelion for which "hanuka" is still
celebrated, and after 101 years of fully restored independence, the roman
empire, much stronger than all previous conquerors, conquered our land.
rebelions against the romans lasted for 198 years !!! until the year 135.
and since those rebelions were a very bad example for other peoples in the
roman empire, showing such a rebelious spirit and desire for independence,
the romans eventually deported nearly all jews from here, making this a
desolate province in their empire, a frightening example for any other
minority who wish to rebel against rome.
along a period of time which lasted about 1200 years jews were either
independent or fought to regain their independence from huge empires.
we lost our political independence twice, in both cases by the overwhelming
forces of huge empires which swept and conquered everything in their path.
after about 1730 years of exile since roman deportation, in which jews prayed
daily for god to help them return to zion, their homeland ( zion means israel
or jerusalem, depending on the context ) and restore their national
independence,
the time was right in the last decades of the 19th century, when the modern
zionist movement was established and jewish immigrants came to this nearly
unpopulated province of the ottoman empire in 1870. immigrating at increasing
numbers, buying ( peacefully !! ) more and more land, establishing new
agriculture, industry etc.
it took 50 years !! until the first hostile action of arabs against jews , and
9 more years until the 2nd one in 1929. only then local arab leaders started
the arab israeli conflict which lasted since. 19 years later the UN voted to
restore israeli/jewish independence in this land. our third independence
period, the current state of Israel.
i had to check the book for the dates, and it's a very long time in history,
but the details themselves are well known to every educated jew, and
historians and archeologists of course.
>[snip your comments on Christianity]
i wonder why ? truth does not fit to your opinions ?
>More lies and propaganda. During the Hellenistic Era, all religions and
>cultures were tolerated.
wrong, check the history books, read ANY source you like about how jewish
religious work was forbidden by the helenistic regime. which resulted in a
rebelion. a successful one.
>The Rabbis and leaders of the Jews saw the appeal
>Hellenic culture and customs had on their people, and feared of the
>"consequences"
it's true that one possible path of hypothetical history was that the jews
could have assimilated in the hellenistic culture. some did, but most did'nt
and preferred to rebel in order to maintain their national identity.
>What independence was restored?
full sovereign political independence, a king, military, law, tax system,
political relations with neighbours ( including the roman empire, initially
regarded as a strong but friendly foreign power )
> When did the previous Jewish state exist?
as i said before, it's well documented in the bible and other historical
books, such as those of greek and roman historians, and verified as historical
truth in many archeological findings. just go and read it yourself...
>Provide then facts of religious oppression during the Hellenistic period.
>Otherwise, you are spewing more lies.
as i said, the greek (maybe he was roman) historian polivius, and others,
wrote about it at the time it happened, in their books. everything i say is
fully backed by numerous seperate independent sources. be sure about that !!
the only problem is that YOU personally don't know it coz you did'nt read
about this now ancient history, but this does not make it fiction.
the fact that i don't know every detail about ancient greece does not mean i
think it didnt exist. the fact i never seen a gene or a virus does'nt mean i
don't believe they exist. do you ?
>: buying all sort of silly stuff, like all tourists do, enhancing the
>: economy of the host country... you have negative attitude to the fact
>: that we adopt and like parts of greek culture.
>You "waste" money in the host country. You have a serious attitude
>problem,
an attitude problem ? as a tourist in greece i also bought silly little stuff,
like a hat with the word "Mykonos" on it, small paper drawings of typical
greek island views etc. most tourists do it. what's wrong here ? i wonder..
>and I suggest you stick to your desert state.
BEEP, ignorance again. go check the world atlas, they have maps showing
amounts of rain, vegetation etc. only the southern half of Israel is a desert,
the northern half is fertile, and we grow great fruits, vegetables, flowers,
livestock etc. in great quantities.
oh, and don't think the desert areas are'nt fertile. using locally developed
methods of modern agriculture we sell lots of stuff, like melons grown in the
desert, off season, long before the time in summer they're grown normally.
sells great in european markets. we even grow cows in the desert which have
record milk production, dont ask me why they do.
Actually there's a special agricultural research group in the negev desert
whose job is to understand ancient desert agriculture methods from their
biblical descriptions and restore them using modern knowledge, using old ideas
in addition to developing new ones. i understand that this group showed
profitable results, successfully reviving the desert like our ancestors did.
>: second, few greek singers do what decades of efforts and several wars failed
>: to do, make jews accept some greek culture. you should be happy
>Haha.. more propaganda. Jews embraced Hellenic culture (as they even do
>today), and that is what scares Zionists like yourself.
it does not scare me, since nowadays it's only a peacuful cultural exchange i
see nothing wrong about it, glykeria and other greek singers are very popular
here. a friend told me that glykeria even sang hebrew versions of her songs
for israeli audiences. i have no problem with that. do you ?
>[snip excuses for death of Jesus]
again, i wonder why. can't you gace facts, sir ?
>I'm still waiting for the FIRST FACT.
considering your ignorance and way of thought you'll keep not noticing them
when you read them.
>We have a saying in Hellas.
are you greek or american ? please decide.
>Iraq has never been caught of sending agents or planes to MURDER
>opponents.
really? how about the failed attempt to assasinate president George Bush
during his visit to kuwait after its liberation ? and of course sending iraqi
air force jet fighters to murder thousands of kurdish civilian rebels in the
town of Halavja exactly 10 years ago, with cyanide and mustard GAS .
>: nuclear, if they had one. but he does not have it coz MOSSAD sabotaged his
>: first reactor, the IAF bombed the second, and US air power bombed the third.
>: it's nice how it all links back to the original subject.
>Quite nicely.
thank you, i'm glad we agree on something.
>Your "simple truth" is nothing but an opinion. As could be any assumption
>about how all or any pilots feel.
being an israeli, understanding modern israeli society, being a keen reader of
the IAF magazine since 1976 and myself a member of the IAF in 1985-1989,
(although not a pilot myself) , i think i have somewhat better understanding
of how israeli pilots feel about bombing helpless civilians. a feeling which
is shared by pilots of other nations, just read it, read other sources if you
like, it's not unique. read "catch 22" ...
>I have served in the Hellenic military,
and now you say you're an american taxpayer... some greek patriot.
why arent you still in greece ?
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
Uri Noy
In article <6depen$b...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>, gde...@worldnet.att.net.rve wrote:
>Our Greek friend has apparently redefined facts as opinions that he
>holds. Everybody's else facts are their opinions. Well, that's just
>fine.
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
Arie Kazachin
In message <6denp8$j...@news9.noc.netcom.net> - [+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
<dpil...@hellas.org> writes:
>
[snip]
>Yes, please spew your propaganda in a vain attempt to describe Israel as a
>state with "morals". A state which has been caught a large number of times
>spying on allies, murdering political opponents outside its borders, etc.
You're hurting the ego of many ex-KGB people. :-)
They probably think something like: "What, he compares us with
Israel? Us, who sent poisoned candies to Gorky? Us, who sent a man
to work as Trotzki's gardener untill he managed to break Trotzki's
head? Us, who "accidentally" dropped umbrellas
with poison containing syringes on legs of other political opponents, R.I.P.
(OK, so one of them stayed alive but we got the first one). Us, who got
the complete drawings of the hottest (then) F-4 radar homing missiles
together with samples of few missiles to allow our engineers to understand,
how does it work (OK, they understood but it's not our fault that the vacum
in F-4 tubes was 100 times than the the best what soviet indusrty could
produce).
Us, who gave americans a present in a form of eagle which they put
where their very secret talks were conducted, unsuspecting there is
a passive radio-reflecting membrane inside? Us, who seduced the guards of the
US embassy in Moscow in order to gain access inside? They're amateurs
compared with our world greatest spying machine."
For those without the sense of humor: :-)
>
>:>Did Germany even have a method to deploy such a weapon to the Americas? Of
>:>course not,
>:
>: of course YES!! they DID, you ignorant fool. considering german leadership in
>
>Again thank you for your kind words.
>
>: rocketry in the 40s, the germans had plans to develop an ICBM, a succesor to
>
>They had... PLANS?! When did Germany start using the V-2?
>
>: their V-2 balistic rocket. and there's no doubt the V-2 would have been
>: quickly followed by a (nuclear) V-3 or V-4, capable of reaching the US east
>
>First off, the German nuclear project had failed well prior to the end of
>the war. Your pathetic OPINIONS about "V-3 or V-4" (please provide us with
>FACTS) are groundless. When were those models supposed to enter service
>(considering when the V-2 entered, and the long period it took to develop
>it)? What... 1950, or 1960?? More weak and unsupported propaganda, but I
>wouldn't expect less from you.
1) If I understand you correctly, a state should disregard any
weapons the enemy is developing until they're ready for action.
Seems like a siucidal (sp?) attitude for me.
2) It also took for US a long time to develop the nuclear bomb.
The moment of decision in favor of US nuclear bomb development
(partially influenced by a historical perspective on Napoleon's
response to steam-boat "piroscaf" proposal by Markiz Joffrua de-Abban)
occured long before it became clear that German nuclear program is a
failure.
>: so have no doubt, if hitler had a nuclear bomb, he would have no problem in
>: destroying new york or washington with it.
>
>Umm... and you are making thise claim based on... WHAT? Nothing but pure
>opinion and propaganda, on a fictitious claim, based solely on theories
>and prejudice.
>
OK, we have a fact: neither New York nor Washington had been destroyed
by a German nuclear bomb. What could be the cause?
1) Hitler was a nice fellow, not endangering US.
2) Hitler wasn't a nice fellow but the allies (and some luck) took appropriate
actions to prevent him from event acheiving the capability to
build nuclear weapons.
I don't know about you, but for me the #2 seems closer to reality.
In each state, the army exists (if exists) to protect the civilians of
this state. Your way seems to be "wait untill the enemy uses the weapons",
while it costs less casualties of the state to pevent the enemy from
having the weapon at the first place.
And don't underestimate German abilities to produce weapons: technically,
they made many innovations because Germany was "war optimized"
for many years, unlike US and only the end of the war prevented
new kinds of weapons to be introduced. The prase "Our germans
are better than their germans" folds in itself lots of knowledge/ideas
Germans had: rocket planes, ballistic missiles, cargo subs, swept wings,
optical sensors activating A-A missiles firing updards, etc.
BTW, I was surprized to see in a video clip of Me-163 that
it has a one-piece canopy. Before that I thought F-16 was
innovative in this respect.
>If Israel is losing the war, where would these foreign troops be at
>(geographically speaking)? Inside the Israeli borders, right? Would you
>use these weapons within your own borders (and thus kill your own
>civilians as well)? Or are you simply stating (as I already did), that if
>you were to lose a war, you would take a toll on the civilian populations
>of neighboring states (after you made the threat)? This is what Israel's
>nuclear arsenal is for, and such policies are barbaric at best. With such
Well, for West vs. East, the M.A.D. doctrine brought Europe the longest
period of peace. If it was good enough for your goverment, why not
trying the same thing here?
Maiesm72
This long, long exchange has finally evolved into a two phase exchange with one
side spewing venom and little else and the other responding, usually but not
always, with calm facts and figures.
A couple of questions for Mr.Pilarinos:
1. Just about everyone following this thread wonders where your intense hatred
of Israel comes from. You have spread that back a couple of thousand years to
include ancient Jews as well. Would you PLEASE take a minute to explain where
this hatred comes from?
2. Are you a citizen of Greece, the U.S. or where?
Simple questions, not deserving of your usual spiteful replies. BTW, comments
made in a cruel or mean manner by myself and others are the result of your
original personal and insulting remarks, all of which remain recoverable by
anyone who wishes to look them up.
Hope that you can control your reply to the above two questions.
Thank you.
Tom Young
Uri Noy
There are several earlier points by Mr. Pilarinos, in a reply not to me but to
Mr. Young, which were left unanswered, so i'll answer to those briefly.
In article <6d41fk$k...@news9.noc.netcom.net>, [+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
<dpil...@hellas.org> wrote:
>Thank you Lebanon for keeping the lid on and not responding when Israel
>bombs your cities every other day (or is it a daily event)?
actually since the lebanese civil war ended and all militias except the irani
& syrian backed hezballa were disarmed, lebanese cities are very quiet,
especially in terms of IAF bombing. the last IAF bomb which fell on Beirut was
years ago, and this single last bomb, as strange as it may seem to you Mr.
Pilarinos with your views of the IAF pilots desire to murder civilians, was
dropped, with the usual precision, on a specific power transformator in
Beirut, killing no one, and leaving only the hezballa neighbourhood of the
city with a temporary elecetic power failure ( power supply to the rest of the
city was not interrupted ). the blood thirsty IAF pilots could of course bomb
the neighbourhood itself, but they did not. so far with IAF pilots love of
civilians' blood. please check this story to verify that this is FACT.
even the hezballa villages near the israeli border and security strip are
relatively safe since israel and hezballa signed an agreement to leave
civilians of both sides out of warfare, with french, US, and UN supervision.
>Israel provided bases of operation? Thank you Israel. Oh.. thank you SYRIA
>for providing TROOPS and EQUIPMENT, as well as occupying Iraqi forces on
>your border.
1. israel did not provide any bases in the gulf war, there was no need,
saudi-arabia and turkey are bigger and closer.
2.the only support sirya gave vs saddam were one artillery batalion which
avoided fighting as much as possible and deliberately missed in the one or two
times they were asked to shell iraqi targets, and also a group of intelligence
officers whose job was to participate in the coalition HQ planning meetings
and learn, absorb as much of modern western war methods and thinking ( similar
to those used by israel to defeat sirya time after time ) as they could.
they came to learn, not to fight. it was a unique opportunity for the syrian
military to learn state of the art war from the winning side insead of the
"receiving" side as they were used to.. check to verify that this is also FACT
3. there was no force concentration in either side of the iraqi-siryan border,
in either side.
the only forces there were several iraqi scud teams and british SAS commandos
looking for them, and the USAF looking for them from above.
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
[+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
Maiesm72 <maie...@aol.com> wrote:
: This long, long exchange has finally evolved into a two phase exchange
: with one side spewing venom and little else and the other responding,
: usually but not always, with calm facts and figures.
I wonder who you are refering to. What figures have been presented, and
who has used "calm facts" to launch personal attacks?
: A couple of questions for Mr.Pilarinos:
: 1. Just about everyone following this thread wonders where your intense hatred
: of Israel comes from. You have spread that back a couple of thousand years to
: include ancient Jews as well. Would you PLEASE take a minute to explain where
: this hatred comes from?
How did you come to the conclusion that I hold "intense hatred"? I suppose
that anyone can say anything in this newsgroup about any country (see
"bomb France"), as long as they don't say anything about Israel. That
would mean that we are "anti-Semites" and hold "intense hatred", right?
Mr.Noy started a political thread in ram, by suggesting "we" apologize for
the world condemnation of the IDF raid against Iraq. God forbid anyone
suggests that this act was an act of war, quite hypocritical based on
Israeli acts/policy/history! And even if you disagreed with my position
(which was and is held by most UN member states), there is a civilized
method to respond to my statements. But using insults (by those
defending Israeli actions) only aids my arguement.
: 2. Are you a citizen of Greece, the U.S. or where?
I am ONLY a citizen of Hellas, never made any other claim. I am a US tax
payer, and have been one for over a decade. What relevace does this have
with this discussion?
: Simple questions, not deserving of your usual spiteful replies. BTW, comments
Which spiteful replies? Does the truth prehaps hurt you? I neither called
Israel an "evil" state (like Reagan did against the USSR), nor did I spew
personal attacks. Nor was I the one that tried proving "cultural/racial
superiority" based on the history of my nation.
: made in a cruel or mean manner by myself and others are the result of your
: original personal and insulting remarks, all of which remain recoverable by
Which personal (and insulting) remarks? Please quote me and prove so, or
apologize for lying (or "exaggerating") in such a mannor.
: anyone who wishes to look them up.
I believe that anyone following this thread knows who used personal
attacks, and who did not.
: Hope that you can control your reply to the above two questions.
Yes... because I "lack" the control shown by your countrymen (or those
that rushed to "protect" Israeli honor)!
: Thank you.
: Tom Young
--
..-------[+=]----------[ Dionysios Pilarinos ]----------[+=]-------.
Maiesm72
I repeat:
Could you please state where your personal and obvious hatred of Israel comes
from?
If you are a Greek (Helas) citizen why do you pay US taxes? Resident alien?
Just curious. It has relevance because you brought it up. If you are a US
taxpayer your comments hold more water re being a taxpayer who does not want
his money going to a particular end.
Do you resent your tax money going to Egypt? That amount now matches that sent
to Israel (source:Christian Science Monitor, Time, Newsweek).
You did spew personal attacks very early on in this thread. Check your own
correspondence via Deja News or other means. Perhaps you just forgot.
Thank you.
Tom Young
[+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
Maiesm72 <maie...@aol.com> wrote:
: I repeat:
: Could you please state where your personal and obvious hatred of Israel comes
: from?
And I ask you, have you posed that same question to the countless
individuals that called for the bombing of France as opposed to bombing
Iraq (and their "bright" comments about the history of France and her
wars)? Did you or anyone see this "personal and obvious hatred" of France?
Or is anyone who speaks against Israeli actions obviously "racist" or
filled with "hatred"?
I spoke of ACTUAL Israeli actions (FACTS!). If recalling such actions
seems to you as being "negative" towards your nation, then that is an
indication of the crimes conducted by your state. Unless you have PROOF
that what I stated is not actual facts (like you were/are in violation of
UN resolutions, making refugees out of millions of Palestinians, occupying
a sovereign state, etc.), then you clearly are defending the unexcusable
by once again attacking the messenger.
: If you are a Greek (Helas) citizen why do you pay US taxes? Resident alien?
: Just curious. It has relevance because you brought it up. If you are a US
: taxpayer your comments hold more water re being a taxpayer who does not want
: his money going to a particular end.
Yes, I pay taxes, as any individual living and creating/earning capital in
the US does. That information should be sufficient for you, unless you
would like copies of my 1040's for the past decade.
: Do you resent your tax money going to Egypt? That amount now matches that sent
: to Israel (source:Christian Science Monitor, Time, Newsweek).
No it does not match, and saying that it "now" does (after almost a half
century of free aid from the US) still does not justify it.
: You did spew personal attacks very early on in this thread. Check your own
: correspondence via Deja News or other means. Perhaps you just forgot.
I did, did I? Well, since you are making the claim that I did, wouldn't it
have to be you that would need to PROVE it? Or, let me use this tactic. I
just checked DejaNews (or my NNTP server) and noticed that I never
"spew(ed) personal attacks". Now sir, PROVE that I did. Quote me.
Otherwise you are a liar incapable of defending your positions with facts.
: Thank you.
: Tom Young
--
..-------[+=]----------[ Dionysios Pilarinos ]----------[+=]-------.
| 'Soon you'll feed their appetite; they devour..' - Metallica! |
` [ dpil...@hellas.org ] [ www.hellas.org ] '
Maiesm72
So, you won't answer the questions, asked twice. Didn't think you would.
The guy that you have been arguing with in Israel has answered your venom
enough times to satisfy most people. I'll leave your comments to him, he has
more at stake than I do.
When facts are presented to you (Egyptian aid from US now matching Israeli) you
say that it does not match and not to say "now". Israel has also paid back a
significant amount of US aid, one of the very few countries in the world todo
so. Not that they will ever come close to paying it all back.
The bomb France instead of Iraq thread is probably nonsense. Don't know, never
followed it. Glad to see that you have the time to. I just looked into this
thread because I am interested in the IDF/AF and their operation at Osirak. One
posting actually told me what I needed to know, ie type of aircraft, support,
markings, etc. The rest is just a waste of time, which I now have run out of.
As far as being a "liar", I'll chalk that up to your typical sttoping to
personal attacks.
You be good now
Tom
Hemang Yadav
>
>>murdering political opponents outside its borders, etc.
>the "bad people" usually don't get punished for their crimes, only soldiers
>and civilians usually pay the terrible price for what those people do.
>in the munich olympic games in 1972, 11 israeli sportsman were murdered by
>terrorists (outside their borders too) ). israeli PM ordered mossad to find
>out who were both the terrorists who did it, and those who SENT them to
>perform this crime, and assasinate them. both as a just punishment, and as
>deterrent, to make terrorist leaders think again before oredering such crimes.
>those terrorists and terorist leaders were then hunted down one by one and
>paid for their personal part in commiting that crime.
>in 1973 an israeli commando team landed the beach in beirut and was taken by
>mossad agents to the specific addresses of several of those terrorist leaders.
>they were all killed, oh, btw, they were all armed, none of them was a
>peaceful civilian killed by mistake if you worried about it.
>one of the commandos who participated in this commando assasination raid was a
>young officer named A.Levin . he's now a general, commander of the IDF's
>northern command, in charge of fighting hezballa terrorists in lebanon.
>three days ago he was promoted to deputy head of MOSSAD, in charge of
>operations. i'm sure he knows how terrorists who murder peaceful civilians
>should be treated, and i'm sure mossad will continue to do this MORAL
>retaliation activities to punish murderers and deter others.
>
The group in question is "Black September" incase anyone is interested.
The best first-person account of the raid I have heard of is when I read
Moshe Bester's "Secret Soldier". He was a member of that raid team which
went in, along with the much esteemed Ehud Barak, leader of the
opposition now. If anyone wants to read it, he also went to Entebbe,
6-day war, Yom Kippur and several other raids on PLO outposts. I belive
his son is now in his former unit.
>>Notice what I stated (*FACTS*), and what you responded with (*OPINION*). I
>>don't need to hear your excuses about how "legitimate" the Israeli actions
>>were/are. Is the above statement I made TRUE or not? Thank you. The
>>propaganda needed to excuse such actions is a waste of bandwidth.
>ok, it's a fact that israel bought,deceived,and stole to get nuclear stuff.
>but that israel was under a threat of total annihilation in the 50s-60s is
>also a fact. whether it was moral for israel to get nuclear to ensure it's
>survival is a question of moral gudgement, but i believe the fair, objective,
>answer, is obvious.
Also, so what? So what if they stole information to create their bomb.
Look who is top in the end? Alls fair and all that.
Listen, I am full of literary advice today, so I will just recommend
another book. Try Seymour Hersh's "The Samson Option" which is a pretty
informative guide on the Israeli nuclear program, with a note or two on
the Osirak raids too. I am not sure of its authenticity. This Hersh guy
makes himself out to be pretty big fish.
>
>>Why do you need to mention SADDAM to excuse Israeli action that took place
>>decaded before he even came to power?
>i only gave the saddam example to show how dictators steal/buy nuclear stuff
>for quite the opposite reasons.
>btw, this week is exactly 10 years after the iraqi air force, under saddam's
>orders, bombed the town of halavja, in iraq, and murdered thousands of IRAQI
>CITIZENS !!, with cyanide gas and mustard gas. thousands died instantly, and
>many survivors developed cancers, and produced genetically deformed children.
>the effect, says a british expert, is similar to that which was about 1km from
>ground zero in hiroshima ( QUOTE from CBS TV, not my imagination ).
>and he did that to his own civilians !!!
>again, it's not an excuse for moral israeli actions years before, just an
>example of the other side of the coin of unconventional weapons.
It is well known that Sadaam has tried bio and chemical warheads on Kurd
villages. I think the one above was singled out because it aligned
towards Iran during the Iran-Iraq war.
>>There are quite a few countries in similar situations.
>>You don't see them all acquiring nukes.
>give examples please... ( oh, and is any of them advanced enough to even
>consider becoming nuclear? )
I think the question he has in mind here is the question of the two
Korea's. The problem here is that South Korea has been too well
infiltrated by the Americans. Infact, I think it would be a physical
impossibility for Korea to build a N-plant, plus re-processing plant,
get a source of uranium (enriched of course), plus the things like heavy
water (which would end up coming from Norway).
>>a German U-boat? How exactly would they bring it to the US...
>inside the sub of course, no problem at all. just a modification.
>
>> By
>>1945 (or even '44), how many German subs could survive such a mission to
>>the Americas?
>at least one, right ? and one is enough.
I am afraid, in the unlikely situation that Hitler got hold of a bomb
before 1945, then it was pretty simple to get it across the atlantic.
Hell, WW1 subs could sometimes make it quite far. Where was the
Lusatania sunk my friend? All you would need was a suicide crew.
--
Hemang Yadav
Hemang Yadav
>
>: Do you resent your tax money going to Egypt? That amount now matches that sent
>: to Israel (source:Christian Science Monitor, Time, Newsweek).
>
>No it does not match, and saying that it "now" does (after almost a half
>century of free aid from the US) still does not justify it.
>
Do you think it was a lose-lose situation for the US. No. First, they
got a ally in the gulf region. Secondly, and more importantly they got
access to key Mossad intelligence from within the FSU. Mossad had a
slightly easier time getting in (those accents are a bit of a give-away
for the CIA). :)
Uri Noy
In article <19980310021...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, maie...@aol.com (Maiesm72) wrote:
>So, you won't answer the questions, asked twice. Didn't think you would.
Tom, maybe Mr. Pilarinos needs some more time to answer...
>Israel has also paid back a
>significant amount of US aid, one of the very few countries in the world todo
>so.
Not exactly. the aid is given, not loaned. there are contidions about how
the money is to be used, like speding it in the US etc. but returning the aid
is not one of them.
however, unlike several other countries, including some which receive annual
US aid, Israel has ALWAYS returned all its additional LOANS, and on time.
>posting actually told me what I needed to know, ie type of aircraft, support,
>markings, etc.
main formation : 8 F-16As
escort formation: 6 F-15A
POSSIBLE support by : E-2C, ECM aircraft, rescue helos ( probably CH-53 ).
standard israeli color schemes and markings.
the rest is in the book.
Uri
Uri Noy
In article <CTh7hNAQ...@yadav.demon.co.uk>, Hemang Yadav <hem...@yadav.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Do you think it was a lose-lose situation for the US. No. First, they
>got a ally in the gulf region.
where israel actually is.
>Secondly, and more importantly they got
>access to key Mossad intelligence from within the FSU.
for decades, is/was (officially...) in charge of "liaison" with the jews in
the soviet union.
it would'nt be wild to assume that the large number of jews in the soviet
union, many of which wanted to immigrate to israel and could not, coz it was
not allowed, leaked lots of info to mossad.
there's at least one case in which a document of immense importance which all
western agencies knew about and wanted to read, was quickly achieved by
mossad.
2. Mossad did not only spy in the soviet union, you know. its main interest
is in the arab countries and anything in the world which relates to them.
have no doubt that the CIA and other US intelligence agencies including in the
pentagon, wanted this type information from mossad too.
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
[+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
Uri Noy <urinoy@SPAM_DECOY_PLEASE_IGNORE.ibm.net> wrote:
I'll try to cut this as short as possible. This thread has little
relevance with the topics discussed in ram, and you Mr.Noy are taking it
even further away from the purpose of this newsgroup. Let us not forget
that you started this thread with your insistence that the world apologize
for the condemnation of the IDF raid of Iraq.
:>Mr.Noy, you fail to answer any point. Not only have you taken the liberty
:>to "snip and cut" points you wish to ignore, you fail to indicate where
:>you have taken the liberty to do so.
:
: I just did'nt feel i have to copy and entire original text of each 'point'
: before i answer it, just leave one-two 'reference' quote lines for readers to
: identify the point i'm answering too. there was no intention of "snip
Please don't excuse yourself fot the millionth time. You know as well as I
do what the proper way to quote is (and when you cut to leave an
indication of it).
: and cut"
: i have no problem whatsoever in answering to all of your claims so far with
: fact based answers, and again, i'm just not doing any propaganda, just
: countering your not-based-on-facts claims with true facts. that's all.
Later on in THIS MESSAGE you will state that what I posted was INDEED
FACT. I have still to see you post that what I said was not. All you
counter with is excuses.
:>Again, more personal attacks.
:
: i clearly explained Sir why i think you deserve them.
Another leason of Israeli civility perhaps? In the civilized world sir,
you do not launch personal attacks simply because you think one "deserves"
it. But it is a reflection on the character of the man that wishes to use
them.
:>Yes, please spew your propaganda in a vain attempt to describe Israel as a
:>state with "morals".
:
: I realize that when you see israeli soldiers firing ( rubber bullets,
: not live ammo ) at demostrators it looks bad.
Notice how facts work against excuses. FACT is, that hundreds of
Palestinians have dies by the projectiles (plastic or not) fired from
Israeli rifles (in civil disputes). This is happening to this day.
: what you don't see on TV is that a large part of israeli voters did'nt
: like it either and therefore since 1992 MOST of those demonstrators are
: now under self-gorenment of Mr. Arafat.
Most of these demonstrators are still refugees, ethnicaly cleansed out of
what is now Isreal. They have every right to demonstrate for the return of
their homes and property.
: what you probably ignore on TV, is the other side of that protest, the
: suicide bombs in israeli busses. those bombs are NOT made of non-lethal
: rubber bullets and tear gas, they're made of explosives and metal
: fragmets and kill many.
Are you comparing the actions of TERRORISTS, with actions of the POLICE
and ARMY? It is nice to know that you see them as being "similar" (cause
no one compares "apples to oranges"). You cannot excuse the actions of a
government body by comparing them to actions taken by criminals.
: Israel is, generally, a very moral country, there are exceptions of course,
[snip]
:>A state which has been caught a large number of times
:>spying on allies,
:
: yeah, yeah, and the CIA never spied on allies, sure, and every other
: intelligence service in the world either. sure.... THEY ALL DO !!
Again, I stated FACT (that Mossad agents have been caught in the US and
other Western states), and you reply with EXCUSES once again. I do not
care what the CIA has done, nor doe the CIA's actions justify the
Mossad's! And if you say "THEY ALL DO", you better have some HARD FACTS to
prove it.
: I do agree that the two last mossad failures in Amman and Bern should'nt have
: happened and if you did'nt know, the head of mossad has resigned last week
: after an investigation, because of it.
What does that have to do with it? He failed his job responsibilities, and
they are now looking to replace him with someone BETTER at it, not one
that would stop such activities.
:>murdering political opponents outside its borders, etc.
:
: the "bad people" usually don't get punished for their crimes, only soldiers
: and civilians usually pay the terrible price for what those people do.
Again, is what I stated FACT, yes or no? As easy as it was/is to kill off
someone, it is almost as easy to arrest them and take them to an
international court (for crimes against humanity, crimes of war, etc.).
But again, I don't need excuses. Each person is free to make up their own
mind about how "moral" such actions are. I stated fact, something that
seems to escape you.
[snip]
:>Notice what I stated (*FACTS*), and what you responded with (*OPINION*). I
:>don't need to hear your excuses about how "legitimate" the Israeli actions
:>were/are. Is the above statement I made TRUE or not? Thank you. The
:>propaganda needed to excuse such actions is a waste of bandwidth.
:
: ok, it's a fact that israel bought,deceived,and stole to get nuclear stuff.
So once again (and even you agree) that I stated FACTS (sorry to all of
those that thought that I didn't). Again, your response: excuses.
: but that israel was under a threat of total annihilation in the 50s-60s is
: also a fact. whether it was moral for israel to get nuclear to ensure it's
: survival is a question of moral gudgement, but i believe the fair, objective,
: answer, is obvious.
The fair, objective and obvious question is that no one else has done the
same. And it hypocritical for the US and Israel to have the policies they
do when other countries attempt the same (Israel bombs neighbors, the US
places embargos to all but Israel). I'm not here to win anyone opinion. I
stated fact, and the obvious hypocracy in policy. Everyone else can judge
for themselves as to the validity of each sides arguements.
:>Why do you need to mention SADDAM to excuse Israeli action that took place
:>decaded before he even came to power?
:
: i only gave the saddam example to show how dictators steal/buy nuclear stuff
: for quite the opposite reasons.
Now you are using OPINIONS. Has any dictator stole/bought nuclear "stuff"
and used it in the mannor you are suggesting? Has a democracy?
: btw, this week is exactly 10 years after the iraqi air force, under saddam's
: orders, bombed the town of halavja, in iraq, and murdered thousands of IRAQI
: CITIZENS !!, with cyanide gas and mustard gas. thousands died instantly, and
Again, what does this have to do with the actions of Israel? Like I said,
please don't tell me that Israel "cares" too deeply about the Kurds. And
just for your information, "democracies" like the US have also used such
weapons (chemical, biological, and even nuclear) on their own citizens and
troops. But you can't use that FACT to excuse such barbaric actions.
[snip]
:>Israeli to pretend to have an interest in the living conditions of the
:>Kurds.
:
: Israel helped the kurds as much as it could in the 60s-70s until helping
: became impossible. israeli mossad agents, military advisors, and agricultural
: experts, came to the kurdish rebel area and supported the kurds as much as
: possible. so the answer is YES. in addition, unlike you, I, personally find
: murdering people by gas horrible, especially when they are civilians murdered
: by their own dictatorial government. being an israeli is irrelevant
: here. it's a terrible crime, a mass murder, and i hate it.
"Unlike me"? Where did I say that I support the use of chemical or
biological weapons? Please also clarify to the readers of this article as
to WHY Israel supported an ARMED REBBELION in a neighboring state!? Is
this not another act of war? And which side are you supporting in the
struggle of the Kurds in Turkey? This just indicates the use
(exploitation) of Kurds to attack an enemy of Israel. This is not a
"moral" position by any definition.
:>If you object to Saddam's policy against the Kurds, then why do you
:>have such a great relationship with Turkey which has a similar (if not
:>worse) record against the Kurds?
:
: it's not uncommon that country A has good relations with both bountries B and
: C although B and C are hostile or are least dislike each other.
: for example: both greece and turkey are members in nato although they dislike
: each other. in the same way israel both helped the kurds in the 60s-70s and
: has good relations with turkey in the 80s-90s , so there's even a time
: difference here.
You avoided the question (and the FACTS) once again. If you are making the
claim that Israel follows some "moral code" when it comes to foreign
policy, you better prove it. And the fact that you exploited a minority
(Kurds) to achieve the destruction of an enemy (and the destruction of
that said minority) is deplorable! The question here is, WHY DID YOU
SUPPORT THE KURDS IN IRAQ? Because you believe in democracy and the right
of self-determination? And if so, why the contrast with the present policy
with the Kurds of Turkey, and Turkey?
:>There are quite a few countries in similar situations.
:>You don't see them all acquiring nukes.
:
: give examples please... ( oh, and is any of them advanced enough to even
: consider becoming nuclear? )
Yes... all the countries in the world are "backwards" enough not to be
considered as "advanced" as Israel! BTW, what's the size (GDP in b.$'s) of
the Israeli economy? What position (even when compared in per capita
income) does Israel hold compared to other nations of the world? Listen...
I don't mean to "burst your bubble", but you should learn more about other
nations economic, political, and military power. You guys are setting
yourselves up for a HUGE fall.
[snip]
:>Big stinking deal! Hellas has the narrowest NATO border (check the map of
:>Thrace, south of Bulgaria), durring the entire cold war.
:
: true, but it's a different case. if the communists invaded Thrace, they'd
: still be far enough from Thesaloniki for the greek army to defend it and
: they'll still be hundereds of KM from athens, the capital.
: a very different case. besides, the cold war remained cold, unlike the
: israeli-arab conflict with its series of wars and terrorism acts.
Are you serious? First off, you are making huge assumptions about a
subject you clearly are not informed about. The Hellenic 4th Army is based
in Thrace, well EAST of Thessaloniki. If that 20 mile stretch of land were
to be occupied by communist forces, there would be some 80,000 Hellenic
forces stranded near the Evros river. Quite a threat, but still no reason
for Hellas to aquire nuclear weapons. Such a move would JUSTLY require
Hellas' neighbors to acquire similar weapons to maintain some balance. So
don't be surprised that there are neighbors of Israel that seek the
procurement of weapons of mass destruction. Not only is it logical for
them to acquire such weapons, it is justified.
:>We didn't use that as an excuse for any militarist or expansionist plots
:
: neither did israel. israel begged for the world's diplomatic assistance in
: may-june 1967, and only when it was obvious that we're alone and about to be
: attacked by the full power of the mighty egyptian army and the syrian and
: jordanians too, that israel launched a preemptive strike.
Again, more opinion. Was Israel condemned by most world nations for her
attack? I'm sure you have an "excuse" for the attack, and I'm sure that
there are Arabs out there that will have a differing opinion. I'm refering
to FACTS, and the fact is that Israel attacked first.
:> Fact is, Israel is in violation of a number of UN resolutions.
:
: not exactly. the UN resolutions after the 1967 six-days-war called for israel
: to retreat from occupied territories in return for peace agreements.
So now you even admit to the FACT that even the UN condemned Israeli
actions.
[snip]
: we returned the entire sinay, much larger than israel itself, in return for
: peace with egypt (1979) , we returned a significant part of the palestinian
: areas to palestinian hands (Mr Arafat) (1992) and negotiations for more
It took what... 12 years to find a "resolution" with Egypt, and 25(!) to
find one with the Palestinians (not that there is a resolution)?! So for
all those years you were in violation of UN resolutions? Is that what your
point is?
[snip]
: there's a UN resolution calling for the evacuation of the very narrow ( 3-8 km
: ) security strip israel holds in lebanese territory along the israeli-lebanese
: border. lebanese foreign minister declared in the past that there will not be
That is good. This is the FACT. Why do you wish to continue on with more
excuses? You INVADED a sovereign state, the UN and world CONDEMNED your
actions (and still do), and you still occupy (and attack) those lands. The
world has spoken. It isn't *MY* opinion being presented here with false
information (like some have suggested). But like I said.. God forbid
anyone say ANYTHING "negative" (the TRUTH) about Israel.
[snip]
:> So don't ask me to "cry" for your state.
:
: i don't . i just repel false accusaions at it.
Please quote *1* (just ONE) false accusation.
:>With the billions of dollars you get from the US
:
: it seems the US governments, one after the other, for years, think the US has
: good reasons to give certain amounts of aid to various countries.
: israel, egypt, russia, and others.
There are reasons the US gives money to some (please don't put Israel and
Russia in the same "basket"). The US also gave money to Nicaraguan and
Afgan terrorists. It also gave money (arms) to Iran and Iraq. Again, you
are not debating the FACT, just excusing the action.
:>(I'm still waiting for a tank you card, me being a US tax payer)
:
: oh, we're grateful, be sure about that. and unlike other countries which
: receive american aid, israel has VERY STRONG FRIENDLY TIES with the US, based
Who cares about "friendly ties"? Americans are capitalists and wish to see
a return on any investment. What has the US tax payer (worker or employer)
received back from all those billions (has it reached trillions yet) of
dollars given free of charge to Israel?
: not only on strong strategic interests of both sides, but also on strong
: cultural and other links. there's a true, deep, friendship between the US and
You mean political links (thanks to lobbies and "donations").
[snip]
:>Like starting wars (because we "knew" they were about to attack)
: check news broadcasts of the time, or read about it.
Check the UN resolutions and condemnations by world governments.
[snip]
: putting us under siege ), not only arab laders called DAILY during that
: period to start a war which will destroy israel completely , in
: addition, milions participated in wild, mass demonstations in cairo
: calling for the final war vs israel, and burning the US embassy for
: desert. so i think i may safely say that we KNEW they were about to
: attack. actually the world thought so too.
Yes.. I think that politicians' statements and demonstrations (!) are
clear indications of an impending strike! What did the "world" think?
Please provide information about your claim.
:>invading neighbors ("we are so small we need buffer zones").
:
: no, we need buffer zones to stop terrorists from killing civilians in
: our side of the border because the sovereign government in the other
Didn't you state previously in THIS MESSAGE that Israel supported the
armed struggle of the Kurds in Iraq? How can you as a state (which
sponsors "terrorism") invade a neighbor using the excuse that that state
is a base of operation for other "terrorists"? Wasn't the struggle of the
Kurds which you supported (self determination and liberation of their
homeland), the same as the one the Palestinians were fighting? More
hyporcricy.
[snip]
:>reminds me of Hitler's cry for "breathing room" for his German nation.
:
: i can see the similarity. if Hitler had stopped advancing in 1938, after
: peacefully unifing all german speaking populations, he would have gained a
: honorable place besides Bismark as a great german leader.
So you have no problem with the invasion of Czechoslovakia? Nice...
: but the historical truth is that he planned to go to war long before it. he
So? Didn't the US and USSR plan for decades to go to war against each
other? Doesn't Hellas and Turkey, Israel and Syria, India and Pakistan,
and just about every country out there? In any case, I don't care to
debate this issue. You are purposely changing the topic.
[snip]
: and that was only meant to be the first step in nazi occupation of the entire
: world. megalomanic, yes, that's what he was, and it's well documented.
Next thing you tell me, is that Hitler wanted to be Queen and rule over
half the countries in the world! Oh.. I'm sorry, the Brits beat him too it
(wake up call to all those that think that the "allies" were defending
democracy).
[snip]
:>Great. You said it... AMERICAN, *NOT* Israeli! Like most US companies,
:>they have R&D centers, production facilities, service centers, and
:>what-not in a NUMBER of countries outside the US.
:
: you still don't get it, don't you? regardless of the american OWNERSHIP of
: that R&D center, the ideas and products are the products of the skill and
: wisdom of the ISRAELI staff. american electronics are assmebled in malaysia
Whatever... if you take pleasure in thinking that these products are the
result of the "skill and WISDOM" of the Israeli staff, who am I to disrupt
such images of grandeur.
[snip]
:>claims of Jewish "super-human" abilities in the technology field.
:
: nothing super human about it, we just hold a good position besides the US in
: the hi-tech industry. and the americans are definitely not super human, so
: we're not either. like them.
Really? Please list the Israeli hi-tech companies that are listed say in
the NYSE, and the assests or value they hold. Please list the universities
of Israel that attract students from around the world... listen, believe
what you must, or what you like. Reality might be disappointing.
[snip]
:>I suggest you read a book on the actions of Hellas in
:>the war,
:
: i will before i start criticizing it, like you do at israel, but in this
: particular case, since i personally support the greek struggle against the
: nazis in WW2 , and the greek side in cypus, and like greece in general, i'm
: not going to criticize it anyway, so i'll keep reading the greece and cypurs
: travel guide i bought last week, instead.
Again, did I make any unfounded accusation against Israel? If I have, you
sure haven't corrected me.
:>There was no dictatorship (post-WW2) not put in place either by the US/UK
:>or Soviet Union.
:
: BEEP, wrong. one example: the dictatorships which took over egypt, sirya, and
: iraq in the 50s, throwing the initial democratic regimes.
: and the current irani regime of course.
haha.. you *MUST* be kidding right? What the hell was the Shah of Iran?
The present government of Iran was brought to power by a successful
revolution. I won't mention the regimes or the role of the US/USSR in the
other countries you mentioned.
:>I guess you never heard of Iran-Contra, Grenada, Panama, El Salvador, etc.
:
: nicaragua and el salvador were a nasty power play, from BOTH sides, i agree.
What power play? In Nicaragua, the Sandinistas were the legitimate
government of that state. Could the US accept another "commie" state in
the Americas? El Salvador? Go ask an El Salvadorian about the "Death
Squads" to learn about US "democracy".
: but in Grenada ( and you forgot Haiti ) the US restored democracy, with
: minimal actual use of military power, more like threating to use it.
Who do you think put all those dictators in power in Haiti? Grenada?
Another imperialist invasion by the US, against a "red" state (but they
had "excuses", the US students there).
: and panama? panama is now democratic thanks to the US use of force.
: you just don't know a thing, don't you ?
Panama, my dear friend, was another imperialist chapter of US history. Do
you know WHO and HOW Panama was created, and WHY? Do you know who
maintained Noreaga (sp?) in power? But again, more "excuses" by the US (he
was a "drug dealer")!
:>Are you attempting to excuse British Colonialism and American Imperialism
:>as a "humanist" policy?
:
: no, and regardless, the faith of africa since the 60s, a direct result of the
: brutality and stupidity of the barbaric dictarotrs which threw the initial
: democratic regimes all over africa after the colonials left, is a very very
: sad example, of how local government can be 100 times worse than a colonial
: one. especially the british colonial, which, i deduce from the books i read,
: was the best one, in terms of the effort to invest in the colony and supprt
: and advance the native/local population.
YES! This was the regime (with many Jewish businessmen) that was shipping
the native Africans to the Americas as slaves. This regime is the one
responsible for the murder of millions (and not just Africans alone).
Let's all hear it for the Brits! (And lets hear it for the "power play"
the imperialists had after the independence of those countries).
:>They had... PLANS?! When did Germany start using the V-2?
:
: yes, plans for improved models of successful operational missiles.
And the Russians had plans to fly to the moon and Mars... 20+ years ago.
I'm still waiting.
: there's no doubt that if germany had the bomb the nazi ICBM would have been
Quite a huge *IF* for me to accept. Do you have any FACTS?
: operational. but since they did'nt have the bomb, the project was delyed,
: because launching an ICBM with just a small conventional warhead is a total
: waste of a huge amount of money and other resources, needed elsewhere,
: especially in wartime.
Ah... another excuse to justify your hypothesis.
[SNIP]
:>WHAT FACTS? You have yet to provide this discussion with any facts
:>WHATSOEVER!
:
: everything i wrote about israel and the middle east and other stuff here is
: fully based on facts, as was acknowledged by OTHER readers who respond
I don't need the acknowledgment by "another reader", nor by popular vote.
Facts are facts, and you have still to disprove (and how could you since
you already agreed with what I wrote) any of what I said.
[snip]
:>More propaganda. Show me the calculation.
:
: check it yourself, being an american as you say you are, it's probably easier
: for you to find or ask for the exact figures about the numbers and types of
Never said I was an American, and you are free to quote me. You said that
it is a "simple calculation". This phrase is a product of US propaganda.
If it is not SHOW me this calculations (a+b=c).
[snip]
: civilian losses in the almost daily bobmardment of japanese major cities by
: hundreds of US bombers, armed mainly with fire bombs. attacks which resulted
: in fire storms with magnitude which is not so far from the fire storm created
: by a small nuclear bomb. and check the casualties in iwo jima and okinawa.
: again, on both sides. AND JUST MULTIPLY , you ignorant idiot !!
Multiply WHAT? Please provide me with this formula/calculation of yours.
And thank you for the personal remark once again. Another fine sign of
your inability to communicate in a civilized mannor.. and then you wonder
why the Palestinians bomb your buses!
BTW, I love the way you come to your conclusions! Had the US fire bombed
civilian cities/targets... more people would have died! Such
philanthropists! Please America, could you nuke me next?!
:>That is not what your JEWISH hero Oppenheimer thought about the use of the
:>bomb on Japan
:
: regardless of those figures, Mr. openheimer felt guilty that so many people
: were killed and suffered by a machine he designed. it's quite understandable.
: and his religion is irrelevant here.
You were the one that MENTIONED his (and Einstein's) religion! And I bet
that Oppenheimer was better at math than you (so much for your simple
calculations).
:>Who told you that having the "bomb" prevented a third world war?
:
: it's a speculation of course, but not a wild one at all.
: read some history, understand stalin, and figure out yourself.
Another assumption. Again, no FACTS.
[snip]
:>Where is the ACTUAL THREAT of mass destruction
:>Israel is afraid of? And please don't say that your neighbors have the
:>ability to manufacture chemical/biological weapons, because I'm gonna
:>laugh.
:
: ok, i won't say it. others do, check the publications of the international
: foundation for strategic studies in london UK.
: everything is there. amounts, delivery systems, production ability, stocks
: etc. i'm not inventing anything myself. only you think i am.
I asked you not to tell me, not because they don't have such weapons, but
rather because Israel ALSO has them. You can't complain about a weapon
system a neighbor has, if you also have it. And I think I made that clear
below:
:>and tell me if Israel doesn't already match those numbers and/or systems.
:
: i sure hope it does, to deter the use of it by the other side.
So why are you "bitching and crying" when the "other side" attempts to
acquire the same weapons Israel has to "deter the use of it"!?! This is my
WHOLE POINT in this thread! You attacked Iraq because they were developing
nuclear technology (*NOT* nuclear weapons). If it is, in YOUR WORDS, a
deterrent for both sides to have the same weapon, WHY DID YOU ATTACK IRAQ,
and on top of that ask the world to APOLOGIZE for their condemnation of
your attack!?
You sir are a hypocrite.
: as for the risk of unprovoked use of it by israel, it seems the world, even
: the arabs themselves, are not too worried about such an option .
Ask an Arab (who are your ONLY neighbors). Or for that matter, ask a
Hellene, Iranian, Armenian, or Kurd (who are near that region), if they
are "happy" with the Israeli nuclear arsenal.
: they well understand that israel ( or any other democracy for that matter )
: will not use nukes to kill people without being given a VERY VERY good reason.
What democracy ethnicaly cleanses an area, moves settlers in (thus
changing the demographics of the region), and then refers to subsequent
elections as being "democratic"? Which one?
:>Hellas is in an "arms race" with Turkey. Does that give Hellas the "moral
:>right" to acquire a nuclear device?
:
: the only risk to greece in case of a possible defeat in a possible war vs.
: turkey, correct me if i'm wrong, is loss of some territory, and occupation or
: deportation of the greek population in that territory.
See what they did after the 1974 invasion of Cyprus. Again, we have FACTS
to document the ambitions of our enemies.
: but there's no risk or any turkish intention to completely conquer the entire
: territory of greece and kill most of the greek population. right ?
You would be surprised.
: in israel's case on the other hand, it's enemies clearly declared,
: repeatedly, that that's exactly what they had in mind, and even
: repeatedly tried to do it.
When the region was under Arab control, were the Jews "hunted down", their
children taken and raised as Muslims, their language forbidden from being
taught, etc.? The Hellenes did have this experience with the Turks. We
still don't have any plans of aquiring (our own) nukes.
: quite a difference, isn't it? so i'm not going to judge whether it's moral
Quite indeed.
: for greece to get nuclear, i think it would be moral , but i also think the
: greek military itself does not think they might find themselves in a
: situation which justifies the use of a nuclear weapon, for the above
: mentioned reasons. i hope you can see the difference now.
The "moral" in the acquisition or not of such a weapon is its possible
USE. Do you think that there is *ANY* moral reason to use such a device? I
sure don't (unless you were attacked by such a device)!
:>Don't need them. Look up Amnesty International and Helsinki Watch reports
:>(as well as UN resolutions) as to what has and is taking place in
:>Palestine.
:
: ok, check what those reports have to say about how the new palestinian police
: tortures their own brothers. similar so what i said earlier about how african
: leaders treated their peoples worse then the colonials did.
: most of that population is no longer in israeli control.
Again, more excuses! Did what I just say above is infact TRUE? Why do you
wish to make comparisons? You can't say "we abuse people, but not as much
as...". This is not a proper arguement in a civilized democratic world.
[snip]
: 2. more than 80% or israel's pop. ( don't know exactly how much above 80% )
: are jews.
Yes, because the local population was ethnicaly cleansed, and new (Jewish)
settlers were moved in. We know the history, I just wish you recognized
this fact when you mention such "80%" figures.
[snip]
:>Provide FACTS that prove that such action would take place.
:
: repeated declarations by arab leaders and the arab leauge, backed by
George Bush declared "no new taxes", did this make it a fact?
: milion-strong demonstations in the streets of cairo and several wars,
Demonstrations are NOT a "fact" that one is planning or would conduct a
"genocide". And the wars... did the Arabs massacre the Israeli POW's? I
mean... if they were aiming to "wipe out" the Jews...
: boycott,
Boycott? The US has an embargo against Cuba for over 3 decades. Are you
suggesting that the US is actively planning the genocide of Cubans?!
: and barbaric terrorism against civilians of all ages support my claim.
There are many terrorist/liberation groups around the world. No one has
EVER (except for you that is) claimed that nuclear weapons DETER such
actions! Incidently, is the IRA planning the genocide of all Britons?
:>Like Jews don't massacre their "own brothers".
:
: er... where and when ? the last time jews fought each other was during the
: roman siege on jerusalem 2000 years ago. the lesson of that stupidity was
: obviously well learnt, due to it's terrible consequences. and the moto of
: never fighting each other is one of the strongest basics of jewish heritage
: since. even in 1948 when israel was just formed and after Mr. Rabin's murder
: by an extremist, it was clear ( and repeatedly declared by political
: leaders ) that regardless of the disagreements, israelis will not fight
: each other because that would be our end.
Nice lovely story. Do you also deny that Jews betrayed other Jews durring
WW2 (sending them to their deaths)? Do you deny Communist Jews sending
fellow (and millions of Christians) to their deaths? If you think that the
murder of Rabin was just an act of a "madman", then you obviously don't
know your own people. There are many Jews (here in NY some have a program
on Public Access), that call for the "execution" of "traitors" to Zionism.
Again, I wouldn't call this a "fact" (much like I don't call your
conclusions about what Arabs say as facts). This I threw in for your
information. And please DON'T believe me, ask a Jew that lives in NY (or
the US) to verify what I just stated.
:>We all know about the "love" between the various Jewish religious "clans"
:>(Conservative/"Orthodox"/etc.)
:
: not much love here, especially when political power and budgets are at stake,
: but there's a great difference between that and massacring brothers.
: i hope you can see the difference. can you ?
Of course I do. But just like this "love" between the various Jewish
groups does NOT mean that one is planning the annihalation of the other,
the same applies to the "love" between Arabs and Jews.
[snip]
:>I'm still waiting for *1* fact or truth to come out your mouth (or off
:>your keyboard).
: i do it all the time, your intelectual blindness is sad.
You better look up the word "FACT" in a dictionary.
[snip]
:>Do you know WHO took part in the Crusades, and
:>who controlled those lands after they were liberated?
:
: oh yes, sure. i can even name one of the crusaders. Richard "Lion heart" the
: king of england. and there were french, and germans, abd italians, and
: basicly the crusaders came from western europe, they got very little
: help whatsoever from the byzantine empire which was busy defending
: itself. it was mainly a west european effort.
Are you SERIOUS? Who were the Byzantines "busy defending themselves" from?
It was the Muslim Arabs... which the Crusaders came to ASSIST the
Byzantines in! The whole point of the Crusades was that Byzantium
(Christians) were losing the "Holy Lands", and thus the other Christians
had to help to preserve them as such.
:>Were the Jews independent *PRIOR* to the Hellenic conquest of the area?
:>Of course not.
:
: HEHEHE, gosh it's so funny, the nonsence you right. and to be more serious...
: of course YES, and now your ignorance is obvious bigtime.
I think yours is, and not just in history, but in English. When I asked if
the Jews were independent *PRIOR* to the Hellenic conquest, I did not mean
if they were independent 1000 years prior to them falling to Hellenic
hands! Were they Jewish THE YEAR or DECADE or CENTURY prior to the
Hellenes taking over!?
[snip]
: and stuff which verifies so many biblical stories as true historical events.
Some stories from the Old Testament are based on facts. So what? Do they
make any claims that (just) prior to Alexander the Great's conquest over
Persia, that there was a Jewish state?
[snip]
: Israel became a NATION ( by any definition you use ), long before the roman
: times, before the hellenistic times, and definitely much long before anyone
: heard of the arabs outside arabia.
So WHAT? What does the above have to do with my statement?
: the restoration happened in 537 BC, 47 years before advancing persian forces
: were stopped by the greek forces in marathon in 490 BC.
: Alexander conquered the persian empire and died in 323 BC, his less talented
: successors opressed not only the jews but almost everyone else.
Hellas (and later Alexander) stopped the INVASION by Persia, and later on
COUNTERATTACKED and conquered PERSIAN lands (not "Jewish" ones). When
Alexander reached the middle east, there was no Jewish state... this is a
historical FACT. Alexander (and his successors) were not only more
accepting (compared to the Persians) of cultures other than their own,
they also did not force any "Hellenization" of the population. Read up on
the BRIGHT Hellenistic era in that region.
[snip]
:>[snip your comments on Christianity]
: i wonder why ? truth does not fit to your opinions ?
This message is long enough. If you are an apologist for Jewish actions,
then I suggest you visit a Christian newsgroup to engage then in such a
"silly" debate.
:>More lies and propaganda. During the Hellenistic Era, all religions and
:>cultures were tolerated.
:
: wrong, check the history books, read ANY source you like about how jewish
: religious work was forbidden by the helenistic regime. which resulted in a
: rebelion. a successful one.
Hmm.. which Jewish temple was destroyed by the Hellenes? Hmm.. how many
Jews were forced to migrate from the area, by the Hellenes? Hmm.. how many
Jews were forced to work as slaves for the Hellenes? It sounds to me like
we were the best empire you ever lived under (and how come you don't
mention the thousand long years under Hellenic Byzantine control).
:>The Rabbis and leaders of the Jews saw the appeal
:>Hellenic culture and customs had on their people, and feared of the
:>"consequences"
:
: it's true that one possible path of hypothetical history was that the jews
: could have assimilated in the hellenistic culture. some did, but most did'nt
: and preferred to rebel in order to maintain their national identity.
The "Maccaveh" (sp? depending on which language you learnt it in) did NOT
represent the whole Jewish population. So how can you make such a claim?
:>What independence was restored?
:
: full sovereign political independence, a king, military, law, tax system,
: political relations with neighbours ( including the roman empire, initially
: regarded as a strong but friendly foreign power )
Something which you LACKED even PRIOR to the Hellenes taking over (since
you were part of the Persian empire).
:> When did the previous Jewish state exist?
:
: as i said before, it's well documented in the bible and other historical
: books, such as those of greek and roman historians, and verified as
: historical truth in many archeological findings. just go and read it
: yourself...
I have read it, and it has no relevance to the fact that Hellenes took
over half a millenium after the fall of that first Jewish state.
[snip]
:>Haha.. more propaganda. Jews embraced Hellenic culture (as they even do
:>today), and that is what scares Zionists like yourself.
:
: it does not scare me, since nowadays it's only a peacuful cultural exchange i
: see nothing wrong about it, glykeria and other greek singers are very popular
: here. a friend told me that glykeria even sang hebrew versions of her songs
: for israeli audiences. i have no problem with that. do you ?
No.. not at all. But don't suggest that all Jews are fine with it!
:>[snip excuses for death of Jesus]
: again, i wonder why. can't you gace facts, sir ?
What do you mean by "gace"? I gave you an answer above. Read it.
:>I'm still waiting for the FIRST FACT.
:
: considering your ignorance and way of thought you'll keep not noticing them
: when you read them.
Do us a favor and repeat one (that has to do with the topic.. not the
history lessons you started on Jewish history)!
:>We have a saying in Hellas.
: are you greek or american ? please decide.
I can't "decide" the matter. I am what I am I suppose. And that's a
Hellene. Where did you get the impression I'm an American? Because I pay
taxes?
:>Iraq has never been caught of sending agents or planes to MURDER
:>opponents.
:
: really? how about the failed attempt to assasinate president George Bush
: during his visit to kuwait after its liberation ? and of course sending iraqi
Haha.. you mean you guys in Israel bought that pathetic story? haha.. If
Saddam wanted Bush dead, he would have sent someone to Maine, not Saudi
Arabia (where he was guarded heavily).
: air force jet fighters to murder thousands of kurdish civilian rebels in the
: town of Halavja exactly 10 years ago, with cyanide and mustard GAS .
Please.. don't spend your tears on the Kurds. I already commented on the
hypocricy of Israeli actions.
:>Your "simple truth" is nothing but an opinion. As could be any assumption
:>about how all or any pilots feel.
:
: being an israeli, understanding modern israeli society, being a keen
: reader of the IAF magazine since 1976 and myself a member of the IAF
: in 1985-1989, (although not a pilot myself) , i think i have somewhat
: better understanding of how israeli pilots feel about bombing helpless
: civilians. a feeling which is shared by pilots of other nations, just
: read it, read other sources if you like, it's not unique. read "catch
: 22" ...
I'm a Hellene, served in the military, am a FAA certified A&P, private
pilot, read Hellenic military magazines, etc. I would never make a claim
that I know how *ANY* other Hellene feels. Especially one with a trigger
on his finger.
:>I have served in the Hellenic military,
:
: and now you say you're an american taxpayer... some greek patriot.
: why arent you still in greece ?
I am also a Hellenic tax payer. What's your point, and what does it have
to do with patriotism? No, I currently reside in the US.
Maiesm72
OK, maybe it's time to return to the subject of this news group. I have a
couple of clients who have asked questions that each of you may be able to
answer in your own field.
1. Mr.Pilarinos: Does the Curtiss SB2C Helldiver still exist in a museum in
your country?
2. Mr.Noy: Is there any photograph in existance, other than the one which
reappears several times over the years, of IDF/AF Consolidated PBY-5a
Catalinas?
Tom Young
[+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
Uri Noy <urinoy@SPAM_DECOY_PLEASE_IGNORE.ibm.net> wrote:
:>So, you won't answer the questions, asked twice. Didn't think you would.
:
: Tom, maybe Mr. Pilarinos needs some more time to answer...
Yes... it was called a WEEKEND, a period of time in which I never touch my
PC. :)
[snip]
: Uri
[+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
Maiesm72 <maie...@aol.com> wrote:
: OK, maybe it's time to return to the subject of this news group. I have a
: couple of clients who have asked questions that each of you may be able to
: answer in your own field.
:
: 1. Mr.Pilarinos: Does the Curtiss SB2C Helldiver still exist in a museum in
: your country?
That is a great question. Hellas has a Military Museum, which really does
not meet the requirements of the HAF as far as presenting planes that have
at some point served in their force. This is why over 2 years ago, the HAF
built a new Air Force Museum at the Tanagra AFB (home base for HAF Mirage
2000's and F1's), that houses many of these planes (the base is located a
few km north of Athens). I'm not sure where the aircraft you mention is
currently located, but it is very likely that by now it is in the new
museum. For a look at some of the planes that HAF once operated, please
visit http://www.hellas.org/hafhist.html , or visit the Hellenic Air Force
Page at http://www.hellas.org/haf.html .
: Tom Young
R.T.
[+=] Dionysios Pilarinos <dpil...@hellas.org> wrote:
>I spoke of ACTUAL Israeli actions (FACTS!). If recalling such actions
>seems to you as being "negative" towards your nation, then that is an
>indication of the crimes conducted by your state. Unless you have PROOF
>that what I stated is not actual facts (like you were/are in violation of
>UN resolutions, making refugees out of millions of Palestinians, occupying
>a sovereign state, etc.),
Where in the world did you get the latter? I take it you are speaking of
Palestine, but show me the U.N. resolution or declaration that says it is
a sovereign state? The Palestinians are working toward eventually declaring
sovereign statehood, when they are ready, but to do that too early would be
disastrous.
They are not there yet.
Indeed, check the facts.
[+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
No, I was refering to (parts of) LEBANON, but this could also apply to
Syria, Jordan, and Egypt. You are aware of the UN resolutions and world
condemnation of the invasion and occupation of southern Lebanon, right?
: Indeed, check the facts.
Indeed you should.
Uri Noy
In article <3509bf9...@news.newsguy.com>, ko...@earthlink.net wrote:
>Where in the world did you get the latter? I take it you are speaking of
>Palestine, but show me the U.N. resolution or declaration that says it is
>a sovereign state? The Palestinians are working toward eventually declaring
>sovereign statehood, when they are ready, but to do that too early would be
>disastrous.
>They are not there yet.
besides israel on half the territory, but the palestinians and the arabs
completely rejected that easy option and preferred to attempt to destroy
israel when it was just created. the attempt failed and only after 50 years of
repeated defeats and immense suffer ( not only by israel, also by their own
arab brothers, and mainly by the stupidity and repeated mistakes of
palestinian leaders. a good example in "black september" in 1970 in which the
PLO tried to take over jordan, the most hospitable arab state, by force. and
were repelled and then expelled, by the jordan military which remain loyal
to the legal government, leaving about 20,000 dead PLO men behind.... and
israel was'nt even involved in it )
. only after nearly 50 year of defeated and suffer the PLO leaders got
smarter and agreed to discuss with israel, to get back what they already had
at hand in 1947...
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
Maiesm72
Mr.Pilarinos
Thank you for the info. Have downloaded it for further reference.
In the future let's correspond on this matter under a diffrent heading. I
suggest "Wings of Hellas".
Tom Young
Tarver Engineering
On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:30:31 GMT,
urinoy@SPAM_DECOY_PLEASE_IGNORE.ibm.net (Uri Noy) wrote:
>In article <19980310021...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, maie...@aol.com (Maiesm72) wrote:
>>So, you won't answer the questions, asked twice. Didn't think you would.
>
>Tom, maybe Mr. Pilarinos needs some more time to answer...
>
>>Israel has also paid back a
>>significant amount of US aid, one of the very few countries in the world todo
>>so.
>Not exactly. the aid is given, not loaned. there are contidions about how
>the money is to be used, like speding it in the US etc. but returning the aid
>is not one of them.
>however, unlike several other countries, including some which receive annual
>US aid, Israel has ALWAYS returned all its additional LOANS, and on time.
US loans to Israel are routinely forgiven by the US Congress. The
term repaid would be a lie so I suppose returned is adequately
misleading for your purposes.
John
Uri Noy
In article <6e1cim$7...@news9.noc.netcom.net>, [+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
<dpil...@hellas.org> wrote:
>I wonder who you are refering to. What figures have been presented, and
>who has used "calm facts" to launch personal attacks?
I do'nt think anyone but you has any doubt about that.
>Mr.Noy started a political thread in ram, by suggesting "we" apologize for
>the world condemnation of the IDF raid against Iraq.
please be precise. i responded to someone's initial question for a recommended
book about the osirak raid. someone else said, maybe even humorously, that
israelis are still waiting for an apology for that condemnation.
it was only then, that YOU Mr. Pilarinos, started the red-hot debate which
followed. and you started it with strong accusations towards Israel.
these are the FACTS, you always demand from others.
it seems that your "historical" memory has problems even with the very near
past, even when you're part of it...
>God forbid anyone suggests that this act was an act of war
we've discussed that. it was a state of war, etc. etc. etc...
>quite hypocritical based on Israeli acts/policy/history!
well, that's what you thought, with not so much support from others as i
noticed.
>And even if you disagreed with my position
as we all did...
>(which was and is held by most UN member states
i would'nt be so sure about that after 1991..
>But using insults (by those defending Israeli actions) only aids my arguement.
not necessarily. or better say not true, as we both noticed.
a calm and reasonable reader can easily differentiate between facts and
figures, or even opinions, and between insults, calmly added when appropriate
when YOUR claims were simply too low and called for that.
( it was my OPINION that they called for it. to be precise :-)
>I am ONLY a citizen of Hellas, never made any other claim. I am a US tax
>payer, and have been one for over a decade.
HEHE, all the pain and no gain. you pay taxes and don't have citizenship.
lovely.
and again, a patriot like you ? i suppose if you pay US tax for so many years
you at least live there, instead of in your beloved homeland . why is that ?
>Which spiteful replies?
yours, perhaps ?
>I neither called Israel an "evil" state
you just used other words
>(like Reagan did against the USSR)
President's Reagan's description of the USSR as the evil empire was quite true
at the time, although simplistic.
>Nor was I the one that tried proving "cultural/racial superiority"
it was cultural differences between nations (some of them positive of course)
if you care you recall. i clearly said i was'nt talking about racial
superiority of any kind.
>I believe that anyone following this thread knows who used personal
>attacks,
i did :-) , i thought you deserved them and even explained why so.
>and who did not.
you did MUCH worse things, like the time you said you understand why Hitler
did what he did to the jewish people. a saying which was so severe that
instead of replying with any opinion fact or insult, i just said i leave it to
other readers to judge your moral guidelines.
>Yes... because I "lack" the control shown by your countrymen
perhaps you did'nt notice, but not all, or even a majority of readers here are
israelis, or even jews. especially not Mr. Tom Young who asked you those 2
questions, as i deduce from his name, which sounds like an english or
american-english name to me. definitely not a jewish name.
>or those that rushed to "protect" Israeli honor
not israeli honor, just historical truth. that's all.
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
Uri Noy
In article <19980309195...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, maie...@aol.com
(Maiesm72) wrote:
>Do you resent your tax money going to Egypt? That amount now matches that sent
>to Israel (source:Christian Science Monitor, Time, Newsweek).
WOW !!!, look Mr. Pilarinos, look again, an information detail brought
initially by me is verified as FACT by multiple independent sources, one of
them even clearly not jewish.
hey, this might even suggest that the rest of the facts and figures i brought
are really facts and figures which can be verified by multiple independent
sources, as i laways said.
how about that Mr. Pilarinos ?
"not a single fact" eh ? ....
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
Uri Noy
For your information Mr Pilarinos ( and for other of course ), following the
claims about israel's "occupation" in south lebanon etc.
In the last week, certain diplomatic activities which i reported here before,
( as part of my response to the accusations re. labanon ), have led to a very
strange, unique, even comical, situation in which 2-3 days ago, following a
series of urgent meetings between the leaders of syria and lebanon, the syrian
foreign minister said, publicly and officially, that syria demands that israel
will not retreat from its occupied area in lebanon, with or without an
agreement with lebanon about it, because it's an israeli plot....
As seen so many times in the past, reality sometimes exceeds our imagination,
and unbelievable things DO happen.
let's read it again: syria does not want israel to retreat from occupied arab
land which it holds by military force. and for years, until last week, syria,
and the rest of the arab world, loudly and repeatedly demanded that israel
will retreat from that narrow strip immediately and unconditionally according
to UN resolution 425 etc. etc. etc.
what a change !
WHY ? simple. if israel retreats from that 3 to 5 km wide security strip, it
would become very obvious to everyone, that the only remaining foreign
occupying military force left in lebanon will be the 80,000 strong syrian army
force which is the REAL force in lebanon, occupying almost the entire lebanon
( except the small strip held by israel ) , present in beirut the capital ,
and everywhere else, making lebanon a syrian colony de-facto.
( which is why syria always speaks in lebanon's behalf although lebanon is
still considered a sovereign country )
and if israel will be out, the lebanese might gather the courage to politely
ask the syrians to leave too...with wall to wall UN support of course.
Interesting, right ? and it makes the positions of israel and others look a
bit differently, don't you think ?
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
Whity
>>> > Can anyone recommend a good non-fiction account of the Israeli raid against
>>> > the Iraqui "Osirak" nuclear plant in 1981?
You can find the story on Three-Four-Nine @
http://studwww.rug.ac.be/~svhastel
Go to "aviation stories" then select "Operation Ofra (The raid on the
Iraqi nuclear reactor)".
Uri Noy
In article <6e1nc2$8...@news9.noc.netcom.net>, [+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
>Or is anyone who speaks against Israeli actions obviously "racist" or
>filled with "hatred"?
themselves.
>I spoke of ACTUAL Israeli actions (FACTS!). If recalling such actions
>seems to you as being "negative" towards your nation,
quite the opposite. we, israelis, are very very proud of our air force, our
pilots, and such daring operations as the osirak raid.
>then that is an
>indication of the crimes conducted by your state.
you naturally fail to see that your argument is not logically valid.
one's reaction to accusations does not indicate their true !!
but we've discussed all that before.
>Unless you have PROOF
>that what I stated is not actual facts (like you were/are in violation of
>UN resolutions, making refugees out of millions of Palestinians, occupying
>a sovereign state, etc.)
etc. etc. yeah, sure. we've discussed that too. i'm not going to repeat that.
>, then you clearly are defending the unexcusable
unexcusable in your opinion, you forgot to add.
>: Do you resent your tax money going to Egypt? That amount now matches that
> sent to Israel (source:Christian Science Monitor, Time, Newsweek).
>No it does not match,
well, your problem with accepting any fact not brought by you is in itself a
fact now, as we've repeatedly noticed.
>and saying that it "now" does (after almost a half a century of free aid from
>the US)
not precise. actually in the first two decades most aid came from the private
pockets of many american jews who worried for israel and contributed money to
the young state. the first US-ISRAEL arms deal , for example, was the hawk SAM
deal in 1965, and if i'm not mistaken, aid followed years later. but i'm not
sure here.
>still does not justify it.
you know that you're in a minority here, the senate confirms aid anually, for
very good reasons.
>: You did spew personal attacks very early on in this thread. Check your own
>: correspondence via Deja News or other means. Perhaps you just forgot.
>I did, did I? Well, since you are making the claim that I did, wouldn't it
>have to be you that would need to PROVE it?
we can all read, right, and we do. Mr. Young does not have to bother to prove
what all readers here have read for themselves. it was i believe a personal
offer for you to check yourself, that's all.
>Or, let me use this tactic.
a strange selection of words, when it comes from you, if one considers your
well-expressed misunderstanding of the most basic factor in submarine tactics.
>Otherwise you are a liar incapable of defending your positions with facts.
a personal attack ? ...
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
Uri Noy
In article <350f369...@news.ois.net.au>, dam...@ois.net.au (Damian
Kneale) wrote:
>>> You guys are amazing! Mr. Stein, doesn't Israel posses nuclear, chemical,
>>> and biological weapons?
>
>Nukes are all I have seen confirmed.
actually even the israeli nukes have never been really confirmed, but the
signed are everywhere and no one on the planet really think they don't exist.
>Actually, I'd be careful claiming that about either the USA or the UK.
>Both have done experiments on their own troops without appraising them
>of the risks, using nuclear and chemical weapons.
true, but none dropped weapons of mass destruction on their citizens with the
intention of murdering as many of them as possible, like saddam did when he
sent his air force to murder 8000 kurdish iraqi citizens in one day, 10 years
ago. there's a great level of difference between the ugliness of the two
cases.
Uri Noy
Carlo Kopp
Damian Kneale wrote:
Damian, you have taken your time digging up this posting :-)
>
> Once Carlo Kopp <Carlo.Ko...@aus.net> inscribed in stone:
>
> >Dave Stein wrote:
> >>
> >> Richard Edwards wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Can anyone recommend a good non-fiction account of the Israeli raid against
> >> > the Iraqui "Osirak" nuclear plant in 1981?
> >>
> >> By the way, some of us are still waiting for a worldwide apology for the
> >> condemnation of that attack :)
> >
> >Don't expect one in a hurry. The people who ranted and raved then belong
> >to the same lobbies ranting and raving today about the bombing of Iraq.
>
> Or perhaps the apologies would fly in the face of at least the facade
> of supporting international laws and undeclared strikes. You can't
> condemn Iraq et al, but support Israel in the same sorts of actions
> (well, not unless you are a US congressman).
The problem with WMD proliferation is - how do you contain it? The
Osirak raid set a precedent, which the West may well have to follow in
the future.
How do you contain a WMD capability being rapidly built up by ill
behaved regime X, Damian ? Ask them nicely ?
>
> >It would interesting to contemplate the UN's options in 1991 if Iraq had
> >Scud launched nuclear warheads.
>
> Not terribly different to the standoff in India/Pakistan, and Iraq has
> shown substantial restraint in using other than conventional weapons
> against the western nations.
So you are arguing that a nuclear shootout would be acceptable, ie Iraq
fires a nuke at Israel, Israel obliterates Baghad, and all is well ?
Do you think Iraq would have done nothing while the Coalition
obliterated its expeditionary army in Kuwait ?
>
> >I wonder how much these people would rant and rave if Saddam provided
> >some Anthrax or VX to a terrorist group which would let it loose say in
> >a NY or London subway ?
>
> Care to tell us who developed VX Carlo? Wouldn't happen to have been
> everybodies' friend the USA would it? :-) Seems the US is mostly
> interested in stopping other people obtaining what they are loathe to
> give up. I'd have a lot more respect if they tended to follow what
> they preach. Then again, I'm also for total bans of such weapons, so
> call me confused or something.
>
Is the issue one of possession or of indiscriminate use, Damian ? When
has the US air bombed people with nerve agents ? Iraq did, and not that
long ago. There are also some interesting reports out there about Iraqi
supervised Sudani troops lobbing chemical agents on to rebel tribesmen,
in fact fairly recently.
BTW the US always had a significantly weaker CW capability than the
Sovs, for instance. And was the Germans who invented nerve agents, or so
it is claimed :-) I am sure a poster with the appropriate history text
on hand can elaborate.
Can you answer this question without diverting to arguing
moral/political issues:
> >I wonder how much these people would rant and rave if Saddam provided
> >some Anthrax or VX to a terrorist group which would let it loose say in
> >a NY or London subway ?
Cheers,
Carlo
Uri Noy
In article <IDL5FLA5...@yadav.demon.co.uk>, Hemang Yadav <hem...@yadav.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>went in, along with the much esteemed Ehud Barak
decorated soldier in the IDF ever. he was also the IDF's chief of staff in the
90s after the gulf war, and was considered for many years to be one of the
brightest and most intelectual combat officers in the IDF, which was 'marked'
as possible future IDF chief (which he eventually was) since he was a young
officer in the famous 'matkal' commando unit ( similar to the british S.A.S )
, and 'marked' by some as a future prime minister when he became a general.(
we still have to see about that. he was the foreign minister in 1995, and now
as head of the opposition he's going to ask voters to make him prime minister
in the next elections )
btw, barak's successor, the current IDF chief, is also well decorated ( in
israeli standards, we don;t have officers with dosens of colorful medalions on
their chests like in other countries ) he has two medals ( 2nd highest class)
, one from that beirut commando raid, after his force of paratroops got in
deep trouble and suffered casualties.
in that beirut operation in 1973, barak was commander of the matkal commando
unit, and his successor as IDF chief, general Shahak, was the commander of the
parallel paratroops commando unit.
> If anyone wants to read it, he also went to Entebbe,
not true. barak flew to nairobi kenya and coordinated things from there and
arranged, with local authorities, for the landing of the C-130 which took off
from entebbe with the wounded and dead.
general Levin, also mentioned in this thread as one of the particiapnts of the
beirut operation ( levin and barak, both short, were dressed as women,
"accompanied by their "loving" taller fellow officers, in order to keep the
elemtn of surprise as their approached the guarded terrorists residence
complex ) who was lately appointed the next deputy chief of mossad, in charge
of special operations, was the one who flew to paris and interrogated the
french captain of the hijacked Air France airliner. the information he got
from the french captain was the main intelligence information the commandos
had when they flew to entebbe for the rescue operation.
btw, if you meant that the book author went to entebbe i suppose that's true
:-)
>Listen, I am full of literary advice today, so I will just recommend
>another book. Try Seymour Hersh's "The Samson Option" which is a pretty
>informative guide on the Israeli nuclear program, with a note or two on
>the Osirak raids too. I am not sure of its authenticity. This Hersh guy
>makes himself out to be pretty big fish.
this book is considered a relatively reliable source about israel's nuclear
program.
>It is well known that Sadaam has tried bio and chemical warheads on Kurd
>villages.
tried? you mean used. this was not an experiment, he knew this stuff "works".
it was a massacre of 8000 civilians by their dictator using chemical air
attakcs.
>I am afraid, in the unlikely situation that Hitler got hold of a bomb
>before 1945, then it was pretty simple to get it across the atlantic.
>Hell, WW1 subs could sometimes make it quite far. Where was the
>Lusatania sunk my friend? All you would need was a suicide crew.
a suicide captain. that's all. and as i said, those nazi sub captains knew
their life expectancy was frighteningly low anyway.
Uri Noy
Damien Burke
>Is the issue one of possession or of indiscriminate use, Damian ? When
>has the US air bombed people with nerve agents ?
Can I just say 'Agent Orange' here to throw a small but
perfectly formed spanner in the works? ;)
--
Damien Burke (add k to end of address if replying)
British military aircraft page: http://www.totavia.com/jetman/
Tarver Engineering
On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:36:12 GMT, news_...@jetman.demon.co.u
(Damien Burke) wrote:
>On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 07:59:57 +1100, Carlo Kopp
><Carlo.Ko...@aus.net> wrote:
>
>>Is the issue one of possession or of indiscriminate use, Damian ? When
>>has the US air bombed people with nerve agents ?
>
>Can I just say 'Agent Orange' here to throw a small but
>perfectly formed spanner in the works? ;)
A defoliant is not a nerve agent. The defoliant of choice in
California contains agent orange. (see Pima)
John
Uri Noy
In article <6e4ce9$r...@news9.noc.netcom.net>, [+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
<dpil...@hellas.org> wrote:
>...and you Mr.Noy...you started this thread with your insistence that the world apologize
>for the condemnation of the IDF raid of Iraq.
attacked that guy who wrote it.
> In the civilized world sir, you do not launch personal attacks simply because you think one "deserves"
>it.
oh really?, the history of my people and of my country is full of examples of
the opposite, not to mention 2-3 personal experiences in internet, in which i
was in the recieving side of such attacks. so don't be hypocritical. please.
>Most of these demonstrators are still refugees,
for some reason, their arab brothers, sitting on an underground ocean of oil,
and so many bilions in the banks, never contrinuted any real sum to solve that
problem. oh, and since the 1992 israeli-palestinian peace talks, after initial
donations by the EC, donations stopped because, as i said before, most of the
money donated by the good will of europe, has "disappeared" in the pockets of
Mr. Arafat and those close to him, as said the EC minister in charge of
supervising how donations are spent. so, as usual, a coin has two sides.
and israel's attempts to settle the refuges in the past were immediately
rejected by the "refusal to get help from the enemy".
>ethnicaly cleansed out of what is now Isreal.
nonsence, they fled their homes in wars in which arab intention was to destroy
israel coz when israeli forces were victorious they fears a retaliation or
just did not want to leave under israeli occupation.
>They have every right to demonstrate for the return of
>their homes and property.
i can't disagree with that. unfortunately, terrorists, armed with rifles and
other lethal weapons use these demonstations as a convinient cover.
i'm aware that a claim that israeli fire is very selective will not be
accepted by you, but that's generally the truth ( there are always exceptions
) and objective study can easily confirm that.
>:>A state which has been caught a large number of times
>:>spying on allies,
that's what states do. furthermore, states have war plans vs their allys. for
example, until the 1930s there was a detailed war plan for a US-british war
over the atlantic, and that's probably not the only example there is.
>Again, I stated FACT (that Mossad agents have been caught in the US and
>other Western states), and you reply with EXCUSES once again.
regardless of what you call my response, i did'nt deny that fact.
>I do not care what the CIA has done,
don't you care what is done with your tax money ? i do.
>nor doe the CIA's actions justify the Mossad's
of course not, they have their own justification, but using similar examples
is just one way of debating, here in the newsgroup, right ?
>to replace him with someone BETTER at it, not one
>that would stop such activities.
exactly. that's what i would expect Mr Halevi & Gen. Levin to do as the new
head of mossad and chief of mossad operations, with their slice of my tax
money. after all, their success is the success of my national security.
>Again, is what I stated FACT, yes or no?
i don't think i denied ANY fact you brought, what i did was to bring opposing
examples to balance the totally single sided picture you're describing.
just as the picture of the rich and magnificent Taj Mahal is not complete,
definitely not balanced for an outside viewer, without showing the vast
population of unbelievably poor people, living in the huge surrounding
gutter...
>As easy as it was/is to kill off
>someone, it is almost as easy to arrest them and take them to an
>international court (for crimes against humanity, crimes of war, etc.).
yeah, sure. it's not easy now, and was much harder then.
besides, terrorists murdered people and hijacked planes very often in those
years, perhaps you don't know/remember it, so a swift decisive action was
necessary to deter those murders. such actions were taken and the wave of
murder and hijacking has significantly decayed thanks to it.
I still think in many cases a bullet is the best remedy for an arch-terrorist,
unless he's willing to stop and negotiage ceasefire. and until 1992 this was
not an option for the palestinians. eventually they got smarter...
> Again, your response: excuses.
I feel no need to excuse, only explain, and counter false accusations.
>...the US places embargos to all but Israel
oh yeah? another fact i suppose. iraq, serbia, and... who else ?
> I'm not here to win anyone opinion.
we all noticed it, and there's no chance for it to happen. be sure about that.
>Everyone else can judge for themselves as to the validity of each sides arguements.
exactly.
>Has any dictator stole/bought nuclear "stuff"
yes, the same example again and again, saddam. you won't twist the truth.
>please don't tell me that Israel "cares" too deeply about the Kurds.
it did in the 60s-70s and i explained how it helped them when no one else
did...
>: Israel helped the kurds as much as it could in the 60s-70s until helping
>: became impossible. israeli mossad agents, military advisors, and agricultural
>: experts, came to the kurdish rebel area and supported the kurds as much as
>: possible. so the answer is YES.
>Please also clarify to the readers of this article as
>to WHY Israel supported an ARMED REBBELION in a neighboring state!? Is
>this not another act of war?
with pleasure. not only the history of the opression of the kurds by a series
of iraqi regimes written in blood all over northern iraq, that was the moral
justification. in addition to that, iraq is the only arab state which never
"bothered" to even sign a cease fire with israel when the first war ended in
1949, arrogantly thinking that since there's no israeli-iraqi border they can
participate in arab israeli wars ( which they did in 1948-9, 1967, 1973 ) and
pay no price except of course casualties of their expedition forces
( which they did too ) so, since may 16th 1948, a day after israel was born,
iraq, unlike all arab states, is still in a declared state of war with israel
( there was no declaration of war in 1991 when those scud were launched at us,
right? it was just a renewal of active warfare ) so israel has, and i already
said it before, every moral AND legal right to act against iraq, whether by
supporting the rebels, or supporting iran in the iraq-iran war, or sabotaging
one of saddam's military nuclear reactors and bombing the one which was built
instead, the osirak air raid in 1981 which had every moral and legal
justification.
>:>If you object to Saddam's policy against the Kurds, then why do you
>:>have such a great relationship with Turkey which has a similar (if not
>:>worse) record against the Kurds?
similar, but definitely not worse.
and the answer is simple. the impact for israel's strategic national security
from our present mutual relations with turkey is SIGNIFICANTLY greater than
any impact we can get today from relations with the kurds, which is much less
then what was 30 years ago. we do have to care of rourselves first. right ?
or would you call that immoral too ? besides, i've already answered that, and
other things, in past articles. you just fail to remember what you read...
>: it's not uncommon that country A has good relations with both bountries B and
>: C although B and C are hostile or are least dislike each other. [snip]
see ?
>You avoided the question (and the FACTS) once again. If you are making the
>claim that Israel follows some "moral code" when it comes to foreign
>policy, you better prove it.
this rediculous exhcange is repeating itself too many times.
other readers responses make it quite clear ( not that i doubted it ) that i
didnt avoid your questions, quite the opposite, i answered them with lots of
facts and figures. i'm not going to write everything again and again just
because you make the same claims and ask the same questions after it was all
fully answered before. i will only add NEW stuff. YOU can repeat yourself as
much as you want.
>And the fact that you exploited a minority (Kurds)
helped, not exploited. there can be no doubt about it, regardless of any
strategic calculations israel had when it helped them.
> to achieve the destruction of an enemy
was iraq "destroyed" by israel using the kurdish rebel in the 60s ? come on..
>The question here is, WHY DID YOU SUPPORT THE KURDS IN IRAQ?
again and again and again...
i already answered that repeatedly. besides this was NOT the question, just a
side eample.
>Yes... all the countries in the world are "backwards" enough not to be
>considered as "advanced" as Israel!
no, that's NOT what i said. what i did say was that some other countries with
national security problems are not advanced enough to become nuclear.
and this is a fact.
>BTW, what's the size (GDP in b.$'s) of the Israeli economy?
i THINK the last BUDGET was about 100 bilion shekels, which is about 27 bilion
US$ but i might be seriously wrong here. what i do know is that it's more than
all our neighbours (shared borders) do , that our economy and personal income
and other sorio/economical parameters are SIGNIFICANTLY better than theirs,
and that israel has a 'western' economy, while its neighbours are third world
countries ( putting aside the non-neighbouring oil kingdoms of course, they're
completely beyond comparison. in money i mean )
>What position (even when compared in per capita
>income) does Israel hold compared to other nations of the world?
a very good one, nothing to be ashamed about, quite the opposite :-)
this of course combines with previous discussion about israel's very high
technological position...
>Listen...I don't mean to "burst your bubble",
god forbid!! i'm talking about industry, hi-tech and other.
>but you should learn more about other
>nations economic, political, and military power. You guys are setting
>yourselves up for a HUGE fall.
now you've added economic analysis to your long list of skills. or so you seem
to think. i'm glad for you.
actually, and i'm saying that instead of just calling you id.. and ign.. ,
israel's industrial/economic history in its 50 years, can not be described in
any other way except as a very impreesive demonstration of steady growth.
no wonder, after all our industry is expanding all the time for those 50
years.
>Are you serious? ...
>... The Hellenic 4th Army is based
>in Thrace, well EAST of Thessaloniki. If that 20 mile stretch of land were
>to be occupied by communist forces, there would be some 80,000 Hellenic
>forces stranded near the Evros river.
well, considering your expressed views of how a country should avoid defending
itself ( e.g. israel in the 60s ), i begin to realize that's how you think in
relation to your country too.
I, on the other hand would assume that, the 4th army would not just sit and
wait to be cut-off but rather head to combat to repel the invasion as it
started, and by doing so both maintain its supply lines and also do what it
exists to do, repel invaders. i believe although you're greek and i'm not, the
greek generals view of it is closer to my view than it is to yours.
since i already expressed my opinion on your mis-understanding of most basic
tactics, i will not repeat that. it's too obvious.
>Quite a threat, but still no reason for Hellas to aquire nuclear weapons.
i already said that myself first, but you do fail to notice so many things.
you're just unbelievable. it's even beyond insults...unbelievable.
>Such a move would JUSTLY require
>Hellas' neighbors to acquire similar weapons to maintain some balance.
I thought you said this is not a justification, as was in the case of the
egyptian nuclear project in the 60s. changed your mind perhaps ?
>: neither did israel. israel begged for the world's diplomatic assistance in
>: may-june 1967, and only when it was obvious that we're alone and about to be
>: attacked by the full power of the mighty egyptian army and the syrian and
>: jordanians too, that israel launched a preemptive strike.
>Again, more opinion.
opinion? these facts are spread, in capital letters, all over the newspapers
headlines and tv headlines of the time, you can find them in archives and
history study material.
>Was Israel condemned by most world nations for her attack?
yes, the power of petro-dollars was very effective in the diplomatic arena in
that time, and was used with much greater efficiency in 1974-5 , after the
1973 war. it was called the energy crisis. threating to stop selling oil to a
country or raising its price to the sky was very effective. especially in the
UN.
>: we returned the entire sinay, much larger than israel itself, in return for
>: peace with egypt (1979) , we returned a significant part of the palestinian
>: areas to palestinian hands (Mr Arafat) (1992) and negotiations for more
>It took what... 12 years to find a "resolution" with Egypt, and 25(!) to
>find one with the Palestinians (not that there is a resolution)?! So for
>all those years you were in violation of UN resolutions? Is that what your
>point is?
it took what... 12 years after the "arab leauge"'s decision ( i mentioned it
before ) immediately after the UN resolutions following the 6-days-war that
there will be no negotiation whatsoever with israel, nor will there be peace
with it, nor will its right to exist will be accepted ( this last part put the
entire arab world in violation of the UN resolution from 1947 which created
israel. not that they accepted it before, but you like mentioning those UN
resolutions very much, so i respond with the other side of the same coin )
following that arab declaration, nicknamed "the three NOs" you still wonder
why we just had no one to do peace with? as soon as the situation changed we
did. and i said it before, but you, as usual, fail to notice or remember it.
btw, i eagerly wait for your response to my article about how after years of
loud demands for immediate unconditional evacuation of israeli "occupation" in
lebanon ( the narrow security strip ) syria now, after israel showed signs it
might soon do exactly that, loudly demands that israel will not evacuate,
saying the entire idea is an israeli plot ( btw, since you like mentioning UN
resolutions so much, i'll mention that this evacuation is what UN resolution
425 called for :-)
>There are reasons the US gives money to some (please don't put Israel and
>Russia in the same "basket").
i sure would in this context. the US gives aid to both of them. period.
>: israel has VERY STRONG FRIENDLY TIES with the US, based on..
>Who cares about "friendly ties"?
Israelis do, the american voters and their senators do, most people do.
actually homo sapiens is a friendly/social animal, or so science say.
perhaps you're an exception....
>Americans are capitalists and wish to see
>a return on any investment. What has the US tax payer (worker or employer)
>received back from all those billions (has it reached trillions yet) of
>dollars given free of charge to Israel?
i already answered that before more than once. at least most other american
tax payers have no problem with understannding it like you do.
well, you're not an american, you just pay taxes to the US gov.
>: not only on strong strategic interests of both sides, but also on strong
>: cultural and other links. there's a true, deep, friendship between the US and
>You mean political links..
NO, i meant exactly what i said, and it's even a fact
>Yes.. I think that politicians' statements and demonstrations (!) are
>clear indications of an impending strike!
actually they are.
>What did the "world" think?
>Please provide information about your claim.
as i said before, its spread, in capital letters, all over the world's media
headlines of the period between mid may 1967 and june 5th 1967.
in june 6th 1967 the common headline all over the world was probably something
like: "war started, the israeli airforce totally wiped the egyptian air force
in 3 hours, see pages 1-7"
>How can you as a state (which sponsors "terrorism")
do we? gee, i thought we're fighting terrorism. that's weird.
> Wasn't the struggle of the Kurds which you supported (self determination and liberation of their
>homeland), the same as the one the Palestinians
actually not. the kurds only disagreed with the bloody oppression of the
central iraqi government, their leaders only demanded some autonomy and equal
rights, and negotiated with the government instead of fighting it whenever
they could, they had parlianment and government members. they were iraqi
citizens. except extremists, the organized kurdish rebel perties started
seriously talking about independence when they realized the idea of equal
civil rights is an impossible dream ( no wonder considering the way saddam
massacred them with gas and other things he did to them )
so the kurdish and palestinian problems are VERY DIFFERENT ones.
>So you have no problem with the invasion of Czechoslovakia? Nice...
I do. the germans however did not.
>: but the historical truth is that he planned to go to war long before it. he
>So? Didn't the US and USSR plan for decades to go to war against each
>other?
again, you fail to see the difference, there's no parallel between hitler's
war plan, written in his book in 1923 and implemented when he became Fuhrer,
and the theoretical plans of two rival superpowers to protect themselves from
an attack of the rival one. they eventually did not attack each other.
>: and that was only meant to be the first step in nazi occupation of the entire
>: world. megalomanic, yes, that's what he was, and it's well documented.
>Next thing you tell me, is that Hitler wanted to be Queen and rule over
>half the countries in the world! Oh.. I'm sorry, the Brits beat him too it
I already told you where you can read the the many documents about it.
just go it read. it's one of many great history books about it.
( discussing INTEL's R&D center in israel...)
>Whatever... if you take pleasure in thinking that these products
>are the result of the "skill and WISDOM" of the Israeli staff, who am I to >
disrupt such images of grandeur.
no images, just plain reality.
>Really? Please list the Israeli hi-tech companies that are listed say in
>the NYSE, and the assests or value they hold.
there are several ( only a few, due to israeli and maybe also american
financial rules and regulations ). i think ELSCINT (medical hi-tech) and ELBIT
are two. not sure. but leaving NYSE aside, there are several other parameters
to test this question.
please email a Microsoft PR person and ask how many israeli hi-tech companies
were bought by microsoft in the last two years and WHY. ask for quotes of what
Bill Gates ( he's not jewish, don't worry ) had to say about israeli hi-tech
industry. in addition, i can take just one small, yet typical example,
the privately owned software compnay in which i'm employed, with only 9
employees, sells highly specialized CAE ( that's computer aided engineering
for you ) softwares to several US customers. i'll name some of THEM. i assume
you heard of them :
Boeing, McDonnel Douglass, Grumman, Lockheed, The United states Navy, The
United States Air Force, Honeywell and several other US customers. and I can
add British Aerospace, Westland, SAAB, Singapore Aerospace and others, and of
course israeli customers, but they're irrelevant here.
Have you any idea ( except the obvious ) WHY would these american giants even
bother to talk with such a tiny foreign software company from the other side
of the planet? not to mention even buying its products ? they cost thousands
of $$$ per copy btw.
now think about it Mr. Pilarinos. I know i enjoy thinking about it. and it's
just one example, of MANY :-) you know what, i think its even ok to be a
little bit proud about it :-)
>Please list the universities
>of Israel that attract students from around the world...
considering politics, the remoteness, and the language spoken in israeli
universities ( everyone speaks english, and many books are in english too, but
lectures are in hebrew of course ) there's no wonder not many come. but please
email M.I.T and ask them if they would be glad to accept isrseli graduates of
say the Technion in Haifa or the Tel-Aviv university, as students, or even
reserach assistants. please, just ask M.I.T this simple question.
Furthermrore, ask any US hi-tech company, or a hospital, if they would like to
hire israelis. DO IT !!
>Reality might be disappointing.
considering your opinion about all this you'd be very disappointed, so just do
it :-)
>: one example: the dictatorships which took over egypt, sirya, and
>: iraq in the 50s, throwing the initial democratic regimes.
>: and the current irani regime of course.
I admit i was wrong here, about both iran and egypt, sorry, my mistake.
>Panama, my dear friend,
I'm not, and you know it, don't be hypocrete !! you're not fooling anyone.
>(british colonialism)
>responsible for the murder of millions (and not just Africans alone).
???
>:>They had... PLANS?! When did Germany start using the V-2?
>: yes, plans for improved models of successful operational missiles.
>And the Russians had plans to fly to the moon and Mars... 20+ years ago.
>I'm still waiting.
there's a great difference. the germans were notorious for planning and then
doing what they planned , while the russians were notorious for stealing the
plans of others ( e.g. the US nuclear bomb ) and creating lesser copies of the
original. it is well known now that despite the achievemnts in endurance in
space, russian space tech. was just not advanced enough, mainly in the fields
of microelectronics and automation to risk sending cosmonauts to the moon or
to do it with bearable price.
(discussing numbers of US and Japanese loses in the end of ww2)
>If it is not SHOW me this calculations (a+b=c).
that's a*b=c you id... no i don't have to say it, it's too obvious .
>: civilian losses in the almost daily bobmardment of japanese major cities by
>: hundreds of US bombers, armed mainly with fire bombs. attacks which resulted
>: in fire storms with magnitude which is not so far from the fire storm created
>: by a small nuclear bomb. and check the casualties in iwo jima and okinawa.
>: again, on both sides. AND JUST MULTIPLY , you ignorant idiot !!
>Multiply WHAT?
i rest my case, it's just too funny.
>Please provide me with this formula/calculation of yours.
not a chance, there's a limit to how low i would go to explain so simple
things to you. multiplication is taught when? in 2nd grade ? it was long ago,
i'm not sure.
>And thank you for the personal remark once again.
you're welcomed, you deserved it.
>You were the one that MENTIONED his (and Einstein's) religion!
in another context, not related to the nuclear bomb, it was science in
genreal.
>And I bet that Oppenheimer was better at math than you
you're absolutely right about that !!!
>(so much for your simple calculations).
the mathematics behind the formula of multipling A by B to get C , is so much
simpler than relativistic physics ( i studied and understood both, but i admit
multiplication was easier to understand )
whehter A is boxes, apples, or the average number of civilian japanese
casualties per typical week in the spring of 1945 , and B is pencils or apple
seeds or weeks of continued bombardment, and C is the total number
of pencils or seeds or japanese civilian casualties killed by conventional
fire bombs. its all very simple multiplication.
and i suspect you still don't understand what i'm talking about.
>: the only risk to greece in case of a possible defeat in a possible war vs.
>: turkey, correct me if i'm wrong, is loss of some territory, and occupation or
>: deportation of the greek population in that territory.
>See what they did after the 1974 invasion of Cyprus.
They did exactly what i said, and we both agree there's no reason for greece
to become nuclear.
>Again, we have FACTS to document the ambitions of our enemies.
we too, i've spelled these out for you repeatedly.
>: in israel's case on the other hand, it's enemies clearly declared,
>: repeatedly, that that's exactly what they had in mind, and even
>: repeatedly tried to do it.
>When the region was under Arab control,
I said TRIED, but they failed, or otherwise would not have existed today.
>The "moral" in the acquisition or not of a nuclear weapon is its possible
>USE. Do you think that there is *ANY* moral reason to use such a device?
>(unless you were attacked by such a device)!
yes, you just said it, furthermore, the moral for the acquisition is to avoid
the need to use it, by deterrence. that, at least, was the american doctrine
which prevented ww3, nuclear or conventional for decades.
>: 2. more than 80% or israel's pop. ( don't know exactly how much above 80% )
>: are jews.
>Yes, because the local population was ethnicaly cleansed,
is that so? check the numbers of before 1948.
>George Bush declared "no new taxes", did this make it a fact?
no, but in jan. 1991, after his last meeting with James Baker beforte the war,
when asked by a TV reporter if iraq will launch scuds at israel he said, and i
quote ( i remember it well ): "Yes, Definitely Yes".
and they did. FACT. well ?
maybe declarations of war by dictators are more reliable than popular promises
by democratic leaders ? i think so, but anyway, this proves a country should
take such declarations seriously, after all, i just proved they might be
fulfilled.
>did the Arabs massacre the Israeli POW's?
in several cases, yes.
>:>Like Jews don't massacre their "own brothers".
>: er... where and when ? ... 2000 years ago....
>murder of Rabin was just an act of a "madman",
an extremist, i said so myself, not a madman.
>Are you SERIOUS? Who were the Byzantines "busy defending themselves" from?
>It was the Muslim Arabs...
yes, but they fought in their own front, and, as i said, they were to busy to
support the crusaders in israel, which was another front.
>Some stories from the Old Testament are based on facts. So what?
not some, most. it's basicly an accurate history book.
>they also did not force any "Hellenization" of the population.
they did. at least in israel. and it's fully documented and verified by
archeological findings. this is why the rebelion started.
>Read up on the BRIGHT Hellenistic era in that region.
if i may quote again from that contemporary historian i mentioned before ( he
was NOT a jew ): "Emperor Antiochus the 4th "Epifanes" looted most of the
temples in his empire" .
I'll tell you this, the looted gold was definitely bright...
>Hmm.. which Jewish temple was destroyed by the Hellenes?
not destroyed, i said the religious work was forbidden. it was renewd
immediately after the greek soldiers were kicked out of there.
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
Uri Noy
In article <19980310231...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, maie...@aol.com (Maiesm72) wrote:
>2. Mr.Noy: Is there any photograph in existance, other than the one which
>reappears several times over the years, of IDF/AF Consolidated PBY-5a
>Catalinas?
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
Carlo Kopp
Damien Burke wrote:
>
> On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 07:59:57 +1100, Carlo Kopp
> <Carlo.Ko...@aus.net> wrote:
>
> >Is the issue one of possession or of indiscriminate use, Damian ? When
> >has the US air bombed people with nerve agents ?
>
> Can I just say 'Agent Orange' here to throw a small but
> perfectly formed spanner in the works? ;)
Not quite perfectly formed since it is a defoliant or plant killer,
rather than a nerve or blistering agent, ie a by design people killer.
The dioxin in 245T is considered to be a contaminant, or so the story
goes :-)
Cheers,
Carlo
Damien Burke
>On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:36:12 GMT, news_...@jetman.demon.co.u
>(Damien Burke) wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 07:59:57 +1100, Carlo Kopp
>><Carlo.Ko...@aus.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Is the issue one of possession or of indiscriminate use, Damian ? When
>>>has the US air bombed people with nerve agents ?
>>
>>Can I just say 'Agent Orange' here to throw a small but
>>perfectly formed spanner in the works? ;)
>
>A defoliant is not a nerve agent. The defoliant of choice in
>California contains agent orange. (see Pima)
While I appreciate this, in this case this is a fairly
insignificant detail - the US used a noxious substance
indiscriminately against both civvies, military and their own
troops; so painting them as being *entirely* innocent of
behaviour that is not unrelated to Saddam's is stretching things
a bit.
Please note, I'm not comparing the use of AO in Vietnam with the
use of nerve gas against Iraqi civvies - just pointing out that
things aren't quite so black and white.
Tarver Engineering
On Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:42:37 GMT, news_...@jetman.demon.co.u
(Damien Burke) wrote:
>On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:20:53 GMT, jta...@tminet.com (Tarver
>Engineering) wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:36:12 GMT, news_...@jetman.demon.co.u
>>(Damien Burke) wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 07:59:57 +1100, Carlo Kopp
>>><Carlo.Ko...@aus.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Is the issue one of possession or of indiscriminate use, Damian ? When
>>>>has the US air bombed people with nerve agents ?
>>>
>>>Can I just say 'Agent Orange' here to throw a small but
>>>perfectly formed spanner in the works? ;)
>>
>>A defoliant is not a nerve agent. The defoliant of choice in
>>California contains agent orange. (see Pima)
>
>While I appreciate this, in this case this is a fairly
>insignificant detail - the US used a noxious substance
>indiscriminately against both civvies, military and their own
>troops; so painting them as being *entirely* innocent of
>behaviour that is not unrelated to Saddam's is stretching things
>a bit.
>
>Please note, I'm not comparing the use of AO in Vietnam with the
>use of nerve gas against Iraqi civvies - just pointing out that
>things aren't quite so black and white.
With the discussions of Rogers' and Calley's actions as hot topics
here lately, it would be a hard sell to say the US are always the good
guys.
John
Maiesm72
Just got back onto the internet after a rough two weeks. A week in bed with the
flu, a day in the ER with my unconscious stepson (chemical imbalance in his
system caused by low level of a drug used to control seizures), a long day at a
trade show, then my stepson's eye surgery. The rest of this week I have had to
spend at his side to prevent him from removing the eye pad, bending over, etc.
May be back to normal in a week or so.
Anyhow, I see that the Osirak flame wars continue. Thank you Mr.Pilarinos and
Mr.Noy for getting to my questions, asked to attempt to return to the format of
this news group. If anyone else following this thread has a photo of the
Israeli Catalina (other than the oft-published 3/4 left front view) I would
sure love to see it. Likewise, if anyone has recent photos of the Greek
Helldiver I would like to see them.
Re the background of my name: You are right, I am not Jewish, but neither am I
British or other background. My family name was Llonch, Castillian Spanish,
until my grandfather changed it to Young. Proper pronunciation was Yonk, but he
was always called "Launch", "Lunk", "Lunch", etc. by the gringos that he went
to school with, so he changed it. Other parts of my family were from Alcase
Lorraine, Scotland and a very small amount of Apache blood. My family has been
in the SF Bay Area since 1798, where they were ranchers in Marin near
Sausalito.
My wife, Lynne, is Jewish. Her family was Austrian, most of them lost in
Hitler's genocide. One branch of the her family, the Bloch's, was thought to
have been lost, but her uncle just uncovered the oldest member in San
Francisco. She escaped with viatl records, photos, etc. and she is working with
Lynne to rebuild their family history.
Mr.Pilarinos, Mr.Noy, would you care to correspond off of the newsgroup about
our family histories? It is a fascination of mine and I feel that people who
know more about one another find a lot more in common than they may imagine.
Shall be watching for more aviation related correspondence.
Tom Young
Uri Noy
In article <350df61c...@news.tminet.com>, jta...@tminet.com (Tarver
>US loans to Israel are routinely forgiven by the US Congress. The
>term repaid would be a lie so I suppose returned is adequately
>misleading for your purposes.
loans. every dollar israel loaned was/will be returned at the agreed time.
In addition to loans, israel, and several other countries, annually receive,
as a gift, sums of aid from the US government, according to US international
interests. these aid sums are not expected to be returned.
( the US however expect other types of 'return' instead, political and
economical )
I suggest you check again.
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
Uri Noy
In article <199803200735...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, maie...@aol.com
(Maiesm72) wrote:
[snip]
be sure that we wish you all the best all the time, even if we did'nt know
every detail of your stepson's condition.
>Thank you Mr.P and Mr.Noy for getting to my questions
"To serve and protect" right ? i like answering those newsgroup Qs.
>Re the background of my name: You are right, I am not Jewish, but neither am I
>British or other background. My family name was Llonch, Castillian Spanish,
oooh..
>was always called "Launch"
could have been a career officer in an ICBM squadron, or in the nuclear sub
fleet, with such a name.
>in the SF Bay Area since 1798, where they were ranchers in Marin near
>Sausalito.
great place to settle...
>My wife, Lynne, is Jewish.
i suppose our greek thread "contributor" would say "AHA!!!!" to himself as he
reads this line... but this would remain an unproven fact i'm afraid.
>Her family was Austrian, most of them lost in Hitler's genocide.
as much of my family, from both sides, with few survivors carrying numbers
marked on their arm, like cattle. but some still doubt this ever happend.
sounds familiar ?
>Mr.Pilarinos, Mr.Noy, would you care to correspond off of the newsgroup about
>our family histories?
no prob.
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
Tarver Engineering
Each time Congress forgives a loan to Israel it is published in the
WSJ. There is additionally the $3 billion gift each year that is Camp
David. the US does receive significant return on this investment, but
the money is spent for socialist causes in Israel and will never be
paid back. Israel would have to end socialism and become a producing
Nation for this to ever happen.
In regards to Syria demanding Israel not withdraw from Lebanon; maybe
they should give you a gift?
John
Dave Stein
> >Most of these demonstrators are still refugees,
>
> >ethnicaly cleansed out of what is now Isreal.
> nonsence, they fled their homes in wars in which arab intention was to destroy
> israel coz when israeli forces were victorious they fears a retaliation or
> just did not want to leave under israeli occupation.
>
This is a point that always pisses me off. The Palestinians are NOT
refugees! Refugees are people that are displaced by war. Before the war,
Nasser told them, matter of factly, that he would engage Israel in war
and push them into the sea. He told the Palestinians to, basically, get
out of the way and when he was done they could return to their now
Jew-free homeland. They got out of the way, Egypt LOST, and they lose
out too for betting on the wrong team.
--
Nothing spoils fun
like finding out
it builds character.
-Calvin
David Lednicer
I have seen several pictures of Catalinas in IDF/AF service. I think
Bill Gunston's book on the aircraft of the IDF/AF has a picture and I
know that an Israeli book I have (which is out on loan) has a picture.
My $.05 on the ongoing war here: I lost a lot of relatives, on my
father's side of the family, to the Holocaust. Before my grandparents
died, I quizzed them and prepared a family tree. There are a lot of
empty boxes of people who were murdered, but no one remembers their
names. There are also boxes with "died c.1942, Aushwitz Poland". From
this info, I have met relatives who still have their tatoos and
relatives who were orphans after the war, because they were hidden, but
their parents were murdered. I have been to Yad Veshem, and found names
of members of members of my family in the registery. Lastly, my father
escaped rather narrowly. Luckily, his father had planned ahead. When
Belgium was invaded on May 10, 1940 they fled south through France,
eventually reaching the US four years later, via Spain, Portugal, Brazil
and Canada. Make no doubt of it - it really happened and we shall not
forget. Mark April 23 on your calendar - its Holocaust Rememberance
Day.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
David Lednicer | "Applied Computational Fluid Dynamics"
Analytical Methods, Inc. | email: da...@amiwest.com
2133 152nd Ave NE | tel: (206) 643-9090
Redmond, WA 98052 USA | fax: (206) 746-1299
Uri Noy
Hi,
Mr. Pilarinos would probably see the following text as a severe personal
attack at him. i hope not, it's fully based on what he proudly sent us to read
in his personal web domain www.hellas.org , and i bring it as a service to
those who have'nt read it yet ( i too, havent bothered to access those pages
until someone else told me i better read this stuff )
the site has three parts, the hellenic nationalism pages, and the personal
pages of Mr. Pilarinos, and Mr. Pilarinos No. 2 , his brother.
In the context of the views and opinions expressed by Mr. Pilarinos in this
thread, Here are some QUOTED pearls from his site :
First, some poetry and details from the brother's page, as the page's editor,
i'm sure the site does not contain any material against Mr. Pilarinos's will.
Here's the poetry...(quote)
Before the darkness,
before the thrill of the kill
and the gleam in the eye
before you know, and if you do it's already too late...
comes the X-STACY!
the exctatic thrill of the kill, how gentle, peaceloving and humaine...
And then follows some personal info, from the brother's page...(quote)
don't know exactly when we moved (back from germany) to Greece
-- I must have been 2 or 3 years old -- but it wasn't for
long. By the time I was 4 years old my father brought
us for "vacation" to the United States...
...This "vacation" lasted a little bit over 3 years,
right up until the INS found out about us being
here and bought us 1-way tickets back to Greece. :-)
Yes, we were illegal immigrants.
I thought nationalism and law and order come together. well, maybe there are
exceptions, after all, nationalism and living in your country, at least most
of your life, are also supposed to come together.
a few years later the family returned to the US and stayed since, over 10
years now. legally this time. not so patriotic if you ask me.
Mr. Pilarinos never told us about himself, his personal beliefs, his way of
thought. it was more us who told him our opinion about him which we deduced
from his words. therefore it's quite interesting to read what the brother has
to say about himself, i assume the two, like most good brothers, are not so
different from each other. here's what the brother has to say about himself
(quote)
I am one of the most opinionated people on the face
of this planet. No matter what the topic is I have an
opinion and solid arguments...
not bad so far, even admirable, but..(quote continues)
... and I rarely change my mind.
Some call it bull-headedness, others call it plain ol'
stupidity, but I call it confidence in what I know and
believe to be true.
aha, this definitely looks familiar, and he's proud of it.
now to the main pages. dedicated by our Mr. Pilarinos to hellenic
nationalism...
It starts with a link to "political news updates". i have'nt read most of
those "news", but i saw this link in the news page: (quote)
Barbaric Mongoloids at Europe's Door
the linked page unfolds Mr. Pilarinos' view of the turkish people...
In addition, the link named "Late-Breaking Hellenic News Updates - In English"
which links to an article with this title...(quote)
New Zionist Attack Against Hellenism
and just one quote from within this article..(quote)
against the Axis powers, and can also document our loses in human lives (not
some imaginary "6 million" figure).
my comments:
1.There's a plaque in the Dachau death camp in germany, commemorating General
Eisenhour's words, saying that there must be no doubt in future generations
that the holocaust did happen and he witnessed the proofs himself.. or
something like that, i don't remember his exact words.
Mr. Pilarinos seems to think he knows WW2 better than the supreme commander of
the allied forces in that war.
2. In WW2 tens of milions died, both soldiers and civilians, six milions of
those were jews, including greek jews, mentioned in the article, murdered by
the nazi state only because they were jews.
3. the catholic church, which no one can label as "friend" of the jews, fully
acknowlege the holocaust and its facts and figures as undisputed truth.
4. the nazi officials mailed full reports of the numbers of jews they killed,
with full details pf where, when, how, numbers, the property "left" from the
possesions of the dead jews, including gold teeth and other "materials".
and the nazis are notorious for their precise, ordered, manner.
I just thought you guys might find this enlighting. we know Mr. Pilarinos a
bit better now. this time based on his own words.
Uri Noy
Dave Stein
Thanks Uri. Browsed Dino's site about a month ago when this thread
started and that's pretty much why I stopped responding to him. Maybe we
ought to think about killing this thread since it no longer deals with
Osirak or r.a.m. in general and just ignore Dino.
Maiesm72
David
The same photo seems to be published over and over. It is a 3/4 front left
view, rather poor, with fuselage marking obscured.
If you have other photos I would really appreciate seeing them.
Let's head this IDF/AF PBY to avoid the drek that the Osirak thread has become.
TIA
Tom Young
Uri Noy
In article <350e34d...@news.ois.net.au>, dam...@ois.net.au (Damian
Kneale) wrote:
>...and Iraq has
>shown substantial restraint in using other than conventional weapons
>against the western nations.
against an enemy while risking nuclear retaliation.
But when there was no such risk.. Saddam dropped his chemicals not only on the
iranian army, but also on his own citizens. so far with restraint.
it's amazing how some people see just a narrow part of reality. amazing.
Heard about the Anthrax alert in british ports this week? i wonder if you'd
change your mind if there was an iraqi anthrax threat in YOUR city, mister.
>>I wonder how much these people would rant and rave if Saddam provided
>>some Anthrax or VX to a terrorist group which would let it loose say in
>>a NY or London subway ?
Sounds like a prophecy now.
>Seems the US is mostly
>interested in stopping other people obtaining...
Not just other people. dangerous irresponsible prone-to-use-it type of peole.
>Then again, I'm also for total bans of such weapons, so
>call me confused or something.
go ahead, ban them, and one day someone who does not care about the ban too
much will threaten to drop it on YOU. then what ?
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
Uri Noy
In article <350EE44D...@aus.net>, Carlo Kopp <Carlo.Ko...@aus.net>
wrote:
>How do you contain a WMD capability being rapidly built up by ill
>behaved regime X, Damian ? Ask them nicely ?
everyting to everyone who can pay, until they're stopped.
>So you are arguing that a nuclear shootout would be acceptable, ie Iraq
>fires a nuke at Israel, Israel obliterates Baghad, and all is well ?
If israel ever gets his , say by a nuclear bomb on the massively populated
tel-aviv metropolitan area. israel, in an apocalyptic mood, might destroy ALL
its enemies in retaliation, just to ensure that survivors, in a severely
"wounded" israel, will not have too much trouble from those enemies in the
future. like when in a boxing fight, if your enemy suddenly shoots you and
you're wounded but still alive, you better shoot a bullet right between his
eyes. food for thought..
>Is the issue one of possession or of indiscriminate use, Damian ?
could'nt say it better.
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
Uri Noy
In article <351bc1c1...@news.tminet.com>, jta...@tminet.com (Tarver
Engineering) wrote:
>... There is additionally the $3 billion gift each year
>the money is spent for socialist causes in Israel and will never be
>paid back. Israel would have to end socialism and become a producing
>Nation for this to ever happen.
1. One of the conditions to get this annual gift is to spend all those bilions
in the USA, by buying american products, weapons and other stuff. so the US
definitely gets a "return" .
2. israel is no longer a socialist country. it led nowhere and both main
parties accepted this basic fact.
3.as mentioned before. israel is about to sign, very soon, an agreement to
gradually reduce the civil part ( the non-military sum ) of aid to ZERO in a
few years. it was an israeli initiative. one of the very few positive ideas of
the current government i'm afraid.
4.israel is no doubt a producing country. check world bank reports or any
other report. top-notch hi-tech is a growing part of our industrial exports,
and industry itself is almost our main export now. the volume of agricultural
export is decreasing, and tourism is not growing.
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
Uri Noy
Just a minor comment about Mr. Pilarinos. read it if you like.
Mr. P. complained here so much about being the target of personal attacks and
insults. ( i called him idiot and ignorant, for obvious reasons ). i was very
much surprised when in my first look in the "Greece Vs. Turkey?" thread, the
first thing i saw was the use of words like "moronic", "primate", "bitch",
"mongol" and others, repeatedly used by Mr. P. to express his estimation of
someone else's arguments. so, sadly, i must add the word hypocrite so his
other "titles".
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
Tarver Engineering
On Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:14:36 GMT, uri...@ibm.net (Uri Noy) wrote:
>In article <351bc1c1...@news.tminet.com>, jta...@tminet.com (Tarver
>Engineering) wrote:
>>... There is additionally the $3 billion gift each year
>>the US does receive significant return on this investment, but
>>the money is spent for socialist causes in Israel and will never be
>>paid back. Israel would have to end socialism and become a producing
>>Nation for this to ever happen.
>
>1. One of the conditions to get this annual gift is to spend all those bilions
>in the USA, by buying american products, weapons and other stuff. so the US
>definitely gets a "return" .
No more so than if we gave the stuff away to someone else. The tax
payer gets the bill and a lucky few benefit.
>2. israel is no longer a socialist country. it led nowhere and both main
>parties accepted this basic fact.
This is a project in work and if you think it is done then Israel has
failed in this respect.
>3.as mentioned before. israel is about to sign, very soon, an agreement to
>gradually reduce the civil part ( the non-military sum ) of aid to ZERO in a
>few years. it was an israeli initiative. one of the very few positive ideas of
>the current government i'm afraid.
How many decades?
>4.israel is no doubt a producing country. check world bank reports or any
>other report. top-notch hi-tech is a growing part of our industrial exports,
>and industry itself is almost our main export now. the volume of agricultural
>export is decreasing, and tourism is not growing.
You can not get there without peace.
John
Carlo Kopp
Uri Noy wrote:
>
> In article <350EE44D...@aus.net>, Carlo Kopp <Carlo.Ko...@aus.net>
> wrote:
> >How do you contain a WMD capability being rapidly built up by ill
> >behaved regime X, Damian ? Ask them nicely ?
> ill behaved regime, and those european and russian greedy companies who'd sell
> everyting to everyone who can pay, until they're stopped.
>
A sad fact of life. $$$$$ seem to be regarded as much more important
than containing third world WMD capabilities.
>
> >So you are arguing that a nuclear shootout would be acceptable, ie Iraq
> >fires a nuke at Israel, Israel obliterates Baghad, and all is well ?
>
> If israel ever gets his , say by a nuclear bomb on the massively populated
> tel-aviv metropolitan area. israel, in an apocalyptic mood, might destroy ALL
> its enemies in retaliation, just to ensure that survivors, in a severely
> "wounded" israel, will not have too much trouble from those enemies in the
> future. like when in a boxing fight, if your enemy suddenly shoots you and
> you're wounded but still alive, you better shoot a bullet right between his
> eyes. food for thought..
>
> >Is the issue one of possession or of indiscriminate use, Damian ?
> could'nt say it better.
>
Thanks Uri. Many people seem to think that the WMD threat from third
world countries is not a serious issue. They seem to forget that you
could infect people at an airport terminal, using a suitable biological
agent, and within 24 hours you have distributed this stuff very widely
indeed. Choose something with an incubation period of several days or
weeks, and you have all the time in the world to vanish and hide. The
perfect terrorist weapon - indiscriminately kills anybody, self
propagating, cheap, easy to conceal, easy to produce, difficult to
contain.
Have you read any of the speculation about the use of genetic
engineering techniques to "tailor" a biological agent to specifically
attack an opponent's racial group ? If that can be done, the potential
for terrorist use will further increase.
The "hear no evil, see no evil" attitude which many people in the West
have toward this threat is as scary as the threat itself. It is a major
vulnerability waiting to be exploited.
Cheers,
Carlo
Carlo Kopp
Uri Noy wrote:
>
> >>I wonder how much these people would rant and rave if Saddam provided
> >>some Anthrax or VX to a terrorist group which would let it loose say in
> >>a NY or London subway ?
>
> Sounds like a prophecy now.
>
using conventional weapons (ie got clobbered decently), they will fall
back on other techniques to achieve their aims.
Cheers,
Carlo
[+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
Uri Noy <uri...@ibm.net> wrote:
: Hi,
Hello to you. Now might I ask, what does this have to do with this
newsgroup? But hey.. I suppose that you need to attack anyone and anything
that says anything "negative" about Israel.
: Mr. Pilarinos would probably see the following text as a severe personal
: attack at him. i hope not, it's fully based on what he proudly sent us
No, the following text is an indication of your lack of a social life. Get
out a bit. It might do you some good... or are you "surfing" when at work?
Maybe that explains why Israeli companies do so good (and you being in a
"leading edge" industry). But.. let me stop laughing my ass off at your
expense.
Haha.. more facts for your Zionist mind to ponder. What percent of
Israel's GDP do the 3.4 billion US $ you get from US tax-payers,
constitute (you beggers)? How many Zionists supported Hitler and how many
supported the Soviets when they were targeting Jews? (well documented by
jews and non-Jews; you "loving" brothers)? How many wars have you won in
your history (you "mighty" warriors)? Oh... let's all celebrate hanukkah
(a short lived victory), and forget that since that "victory" by your
side, the "defeated" party ruled over Palestine for almost a thousand
years (and you loved it :) )!
BTW, Hellenes (much like Arabs) have a more justified claim to Palestine
than the Jews will ever have. How many years (since the birth of Christ,
our Lord and Savior) has that area been under Hellenic control, and how
many under Israelite? So go hold your mongoloid Turkish buddy's hand, and
pray that the new Helleno-Egyptian-Syrian alliance doesn't send the lot of
you searching the the desert for 40 years! haha... oh, unless GPS is an
Israeli R&D product developed to overcome that genetic limitation. :)
: in his personal web domain www.hellas.org , and i bring it as a service to
: those who have'nt read it yet ( i too, havent bothered to access those pages
: until someone else told me i better read this stuff )
Thanks for the free advertisement. Now go back to work, or have sex with
your wife for a purpose other than conception. The poor woman must be
dying for it.
: the site has three parts, the hellenic nationalism pages, and the personal
: pages of Mr. Pilarinos, and Mr. Pilarinos No. 2 , his brother.
The site does not have "three parts". I hope you are not a "developer" of
web technologies. Honestly! :)
: In the context of the views and opinions expressed by Mr. Pilarinos in this
: thread, Here are some QUOTED pearls from his site :
And you go on to quote...
: First, some poetry and details from the brother's page, as the page's editor,
My brother's personal home page! Haha.. great way to win any arguement!
: i'm sure the site does not contain any material against Mr. Pilarinos's will.
Unlike the Israelis or the Turks, I do not censor my brother(s).
: Here's the poetry...(quote)
: Before the darkness,
: before the thrill of the kill
: and the gleam in the eye
: before you know, and if you do it's already too late...
: comes the X-STACY!
Haha... I'm sure the above has some relevance to ram, or the subject we
were discussing (in your demented mind perhaps).
: the exctatic thrill of the kill, how gentle, peaceloving and humaine...
Yes. Let's compare a humorous poem about an IRC nick(name), with the
documented genocide of Kurds by Turks (did you like the "proud" Turkish
allies of yours posing over decapitated Kurds), and Palestinians by
Israelis! Lets...
[snip]
: I thought nationalism and law and order come together. well, maybe there are
: exceptions, after all, nationalism and living in your country, at least most
: of your life, are also supposed to come together.
And you are an uneducated clown. If you knew about the modern Hellenic
history, you would also know that the movements for liberation (much like
the case was for ISRAEL) were formed and based by nationals living far
away from their homeland (for 1821 Hellas it was based in the Ukraine).
Now, can you tell us about modern Israeli history, you hypocrite, and
where the Zionists who planned and deceived to create the "Jewish State",
did so?
: a few years later the family returned to the US and stayed since, over 10
: years now. legally this time. not so patriotic if you ask me.
Still not a majority of my life, and furthermore, not relevant. You Jewish
hypocrites bring in "Israeli's" from every corner of the world to forcibly
change the demographics of Palestine. Have you ever questioned those
people's "patriotism" as you question mine? Of course not... cause that
does not serve your weak, cheap, and pathetic propaganda.
BTW, go build a Navy before we go shell your RECOGNIZED capital of Tel
Aviv.
: Mr. Pilarinos never told us about himself, his personal beliefs, his way of
: thought. it was more us who told him our opinion about him which we deduced
What does my personal life have to do with it? Go read a tabloid about
your PM, who's so "pussy-whipped" by his wife, that he needs to vent his
(sexual?) frustration on the poor Palestinians.
: from his words. therefore it's quite interesting to read what the brother has
: to say about himself, i assume the two, like most good brothers, are not so
: different from each other. here's what the brother has to say about himself
Great logic on your part. Where is Plato to hear this now?? Haha..
[snip]
: now to the main pages. dedicated by our Mr. Pilarinos to hellenic
: nationalism...
That would be "Mr. Pilarinos'" and "Hellenic".
: It starts with a link to "political news updates". i have'nt read most of
: those "news", but i saw this link in the news page: (quote)
: Barbaric Mongoloids at Europe's Door
: the linked page unfolds Mr. Pilarinos' view of the turkish people...
Not at all. I doubt *PICTURES* or Amnesty International reports (links
going to the AI web site), can be classified as my personal "views".
Again, a simple distinction between FACTS and opinions, which you seem to
lack an understanding of.
: In addition, the link named "Late-Breaking Hellenic News Updates - In English"
: which links to an article with this title...(quote)
: New Zionist Attack Against Hellenism
Care to quote the article and defend your Zionist policies?
: and just one quote from within this article..(quote)
: against the Axis powers, and can also document our loses in human lives (not
: some imaginary "6 million" figure).
:
: my comments:
: 1.There's a plaque in the Dachau death camp in germany, commemorating General
: Eisenhour's words, saying that there must be no doubt in future generations
: that the holocaust did happen and he witnessed the proofs himself.. or
: something like that, i don't remember his exact words.
: Mr. Pilarinos seems to think he knows WW2 better than the supreme
: commander of the allied forces in that war.
President Eisenhower was an American (bound for politics). Would you
classify any of his comments/positions as being "unbiased"?
: 2. In WW2 tens of milions died, both soldiers and civilians, six milions of
: those were jews, including greek jews, mentioned in the article, murdered by
: the nazi state only because they were jews.
Now THINK! If 6 million died, why can't you produce a list of 6 million
names with some documentation (where/when they were born, and some proof
that they were Jewish)? Hellas lost over 600,000 people durring the war.
For those 600,000 loses, we have DOCUMENTED resistance, and DOCUMENTED
loses (much like most nationalities that fought the axis). Where is this
resistance by the Jews? The "Warsow uprising" when the war was already
won? Or are we expected to believe that 6 million were murdered (like
sheep), and no real documented resistence was made? And if that is the
case, then that says a lot about your people! In any case, you can't have
it both ways.
: 3. the catholic church, which no one can label as "friend" of the jews, fully
: acknowlege the holocaust and its facts and figures as undisputed truth.
And who the hell is the Catholic Church or the Pope? You tell me this as
if the opinion of a heretic holds any water.
: 4. the nazi officials mailed full reports of the numbers of jews they killed,
: with full details pf where, when, how, numbers, the property "left" from the
: possesions of the dead jews, including gold teeth and other "materials".
: and the nazis are notorious for their precise, ordered, manner.
Yeah.. in the same way that the US troops were reporting excessive (2, 3,
and 4 fold) "kills" of NVA/VC troops. And we all know how much BETTER the
US army is in their "precise, ordered, manner". ;)
: I just thought you guys might find this enlighting. we know Mr. Pilarinos a
: bit better now. this time based on his own words.
You quoted HALF a SENTENCE of mine (the rest being my sibling's)! Truely
pathetic.
: Uri Noy
BTW: Since I have both a real job and a healthy social life (and a slight
problem with my nntp server), I can't respond to previous articles. For
the mongol that quoted figures about the HAF from www.strategy.gr (nice
reliable source there, tough guy), you failed to mention the most populous
type in HAF service, the A-7E. That says a lot about your other figures
(and the "sources" you use for them).
And you dared mention the N/F-5A/B??? We use them for the sole purpose of
"defending" our northern borders (Albania/FYROM/Bulgaria). Not much of a
challenge, especially with the first 2. Now, are you here to inform us
that these planes would take an active role in a war in the Aegean? Save
the sea... we don't wish to pollute the Aegean with any more THK planes!
--
..-------[+=]----------[ Dionysios Pilarinos ]----------[+=]-------.
| 'The shortest straw has been pulled for you...' - Metallica! |
` [ dpil...@hellas.org ] [ www.hellas.org ] '
Vasilios Pilarinos
Mr. Uri Noy,
Don't you know it's bad manners to talk about someone behind their back?
Were it not for my brother I would not know that you had posted this.
You could have e-mailed it to me, but I can see the cowardice of you as an
individual matches that of your people in general.
The first quote you displayed is an inside joke between me and a few
online friends of mine-- those that I've met in MUDs, IRC, online
fighting games and the like, but your stupidity and rush to judgement
prevented you from seeing that.
The second is a compliment to me-- the reason I hold true to my beliefs,
is because unlike you, I research them before I hold true to them. They
are grounded on facts and are unquestionable, undeniable, and true.
And another thing, maybe your mother has a cookie-cutter cunt and
everything that went in and plopped out was an exact copy, but I assure
you it's not the same with normal people. So if you have issues with my
brother take him up with what he's said, not me.
As for the Holocaust, etc... cry me a fucking river. (To everyone else,
pardon the cursing, but the guy is a fuck and deserves it.) Who cares
about the Holocaust? It happened (in whatever proportions you chose to
believe it did), it's over and done with, get over it! Do you see Russians
complaining anwywhere and everywhere about how 20 million of them died
during WWII and another 20 million by Stalin? Or the Greeks who lost
15% of their population from '44-49? No, because they have pride
and they don't put their suffering as "bait" to get some sympathy. You
can't even _question_ the figures of the Holocaust without being deemed an
anti-Semite (as if the murdering of Arabs by the Israelis isn't
anti-Semitic)! Why is it that you can question anything else in history
and want to do research on it without being labeled anything other than
scholar, but when you approach this Holocaust historical entity all of a
sudden you are an anti-Semite? Get a grip!
This is modern day Jewishness :
1) A product of an _Orthodox Jew_ home decided to make a film about the
Orthodox Jew community in NY-- one of the stories included was a married
Orthodox woman who was cheating on her husband. Orthodox Jews, furious at
the "absurd" assertion that one of them was less than perfect (if there
exist a supremist mentality among any people, it's here) protested, sent
letter to everyone but the president. The future of this movie? It's
currently on hold. So much for freedom of speech.
2) On Ellis Island, the US wanted to put a monument and plaque to
apologize for the WWII encampment of Japanese Americans. They used the
term "concentration camp" (It was camps, where they concentrated Japanese
Americans, duh!). But the Jews, who obviously believe they have a monopoly
on the term and apparently suffering in general, protested even TO the
president and forced the government to rewrite the plaque so as to
specifically outline the difference between the US concentration camps and
those of Germany and Poland, as if it's necessary! It's equivalent as
Russians making them describe the differences between that and.. the
GULAG!
3) The only remaining militant NAZIs left in the world are the Ashkenazi
Jews who are even racist against their Arab descended brethren, who are
the only ones who could legitimately make _some_ claims on Israeli land.
Also, the human rights abuses against Palestinians are well known and
universally condemned (with the exception of the US, of course).
And by the way, since I have a short fuse with idiots, here's a New York
greeting : GO FUCK YOURSELF.
"I just thought you guys might find this enlighting. we know Mr. Pilarinos
a bit better now. this time based on his own words."
You are a moron. Someone who is so opposed to "racism" and "anti-Semitism"
should "know" that no two people are the same and ones words can't be
used to represent another, right? Or does that only apply to anti-Semites,
you hyppocrite?
Good luck, my friend. The good Lord knows you need it.
--
* Vasilios L. Pilarinos (vpil...@hellas.org)
|_ "Silence is the virtue of fools.-F.Bacon" * www.hellas.org/~vpilarin
Gregory Deych
On 26 Mar 1998 15:45:01 GMT, [+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
<dpil...@hellas.org> wrote:
[snip]
To borrow a page out of Old Salt's book...
Plonk!
-
Gregory Deych
"My Kung-fu is the best!"
Please delete the .rve portion from my e-mail address.
Vasilios Pilarinos
Gregory Deych <gde...@worldnet.att.net.rve> wrote:
% To borrow a page out of Old Salt's book...
% Plonk!
Mind your business, deychbag.
% Gregory Deych
Damien Burke
On 26 Mar 1998 15:47:49 GMT, Vasilios Pilarinos
<vpil...@hellas.org> wrote:
[a load of drivel]
My oh my, the sunny weather is really bringing them out this
week.
*plonk*
Vasilios Pilarinos
Damien Burke <news_...@jetman.demon.co.u> wrote:
% On 26 Mar 1998 15:47:49 GMT, Vasilios Pilarinos
% <vpil...@hellas.org> wrote:
% [a load of drivel]
% My oh my, the sunny weather is really bringing them out this
% week.
Shouldn't you be importing an African/Arab/Hindu to screw your wife while
you bugger your buddy's ass? All your other countrymen seem to be doing
that, so quit wasting time online and get to it.
And wash your teeth once in a while. Being forced to see that in Greece
during the summers and the rest of the year in New York is disgusting.
% *plonk*
See? Isn't it nice when people respond to you in the manner you deserve
rather than polite politically correct rubbish?
Hell, I don't even give a fuck about military aircraft but from now on
I'll post just to piss YOU off.
% --
% Damien Burke (add k to end of address if replying)
% British military aircraft page: http://www.totavia.com/jetman/
What's the point of making them? You're still going to need American
military to bail you from whatever mess you get into with those things.
Tarver Engineering
On 26 Mar 1998 19:56:32 GMT, Vasilios Pilarinos <vpil...@hellas.org>
wrote:
>Damien Burke <news_...@jetman.demon.co.u> wrote:
>% On 26 Mar 1998 15:47:49 GMT, Vasilios Pilarinos
>% <vpil...@hellas.org> wrote:
>% [a load of drivel]
>% My oh my, the sunny weather is really bringing them out this
>% week.
>
>Shouldn't you be importing an African/Arab/Hindu to screw your wife while
>you bugger your buddy's ass? All your other countrymen seem to be doing
>that, so quit wasting time online and get to it.
Why do you suppose it has not already happened? (couldn't resist)
<snip>
>See? Isn't it nice when people respond to you in the manner you deserve
>rather than polite politically correct rubbish?
I have enjoyed this flame war.
John
Uri Noy
In article <35299e2c...@news.tminet.com>, jta...@tminet.com (Tarver
>>2. israel is no longer a socialist country. it led nowhere and both main
>>parties accepted this basic fact.
??? what do you know about it sir ? there were major changes already and
probably others will follow.
>>3.as mentioned before. israel is about to sign, very soon, an agreement to
>>gradually reduce the civil part ( the non-military sum ) of aid to ZERO in a
>>few years. it was an israeli initiative. one of the very few positive ideas of
>>the current government i'm afraid.
>How many decades?
one . 12 years to be exact. that's all. and i remind you it was our
initiative.
>You can not get there without peace.
get where?
but in essence i agree with you. there's a great difference between israel's
economy in the days of the peace-making Rabin government and the present
government which does everything it can to stall and even take things
backwards.
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
>
>John
>
Uri Noy
In article <351A14C8...@aus.net>, Carlo Kopp <Carlo.Ko...@aus.net>
wrote:
>A sad fact of life. $$$$$ seem to be regarded as much more important
>than containing third world WMD capabilities.
stop those death traders. 1. by law, if you can have enough proof aceptable at
court. this requires espionage. but Mr. P. dislikes that. 2. threats or even
use of personal violence at key figures. this is effective but is rarely used
for its political side effects.
>Thanks Uri. Many people seem to think that the WMD threat from third
>world countries is not a serious issue.
every citizen of the free world should remember how easy it was to detonate a
large bomb under the world trade center in NYC and kill dosens by gas in the
tokyo subway. today you don't need an exppensive ICBM to kill masses in NYC,
london, or any other western city. you can ship of fly the weapon itself
there, and then just use it. apparently many people can't understand this
simple fact. so if a dictator who repeatedly demostrated his willingness to
use weapons of mass destruction wants to do it. he CAN.
>The "hear no evil, see no evil" attitude which many people in the West
>have toward this threat is as scary as the threat itself.
this pattern has repeated itself so many times in history coz many refuse to
learn. people, busy with their personal matters until a known threat which
they preferred to ignore, reaches them, personally, and they personally pay a
very high price. whether at war, or terrorism, or economic disaster or
whatever. that they could avoid if they had done something when they could.
and examples abound.
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
Uri Noy
In article <6fdtb5$q...@news9.noc.netcom.net>, Vasilios Pilarinos
<vpil...@hellas.org> wrote:
[snip]
I wanted to treat the Pilarinos brother with a fresh start, but his words
clearly shows that the two are alike. i'll ignore him then. saves time.
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
Uri Noy
In article <6fdt5t$r...@news9.noc.netcom.net>, [+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
<dpil...@hellas.org> wrote:
>that says anything "negative" about Israel.
Israel has nothing to do with it. it's you mister.
>your lack of a social life.
quite the opposite. telling my friends about you and your opinions and way of
thought is a new source for good laughs.
>or are you "surfing" when at work?
no i'm not. i told you what i do at work, right ? and it pays well too.
>Haha.. more facts for your Zionist mind to ponder. What percent of
>Israel's GDP do the 3.4 billion US $ you get from US tax-payers,
>constitute (you beggers)? How many Zionists supported Hitler and how many
>supported the Soviets when they were targeting Jews? (well documented by
>jews and non-Jews; you "loving" brothers)? How many wars have you won in
>your history (you "mighty" warriors)? Oh... let's all celebrate hanukkah
>(a short lived victory), and forget that since that "victory" by your
>side, the "defeated" party ruled over Palestine for almost a thousand
>years (and you loved it :) )!
that's a lot of questions. the answers are:
1. about 12%,
2. three people, the leaders of the stern gang. on the other hand the jewish
population in here, still under british mandate, stopped all resistance to the
british in favor of true cooperation ( on both sides ) and many thousands
joined the british armed forces to fight the nazis.
3. very few, misled by soviet propaganda, like others everywhere in the world
4. we won many wars. how far do you want to look back. to 1948, or to king
david who was the "napoleon" of his time, in regional proportions of course,
or to the many times we defeated much larger and better equipped imperial
armies ( the hellenic of course, several times, but armies of other empires
too, all along our history )
if you prefer the shorter scope (since 1948), here it is. we won, decicively,
in 1948-9 ( defeated 7 invading arab armies ), 1956(defeated the egyptian army
in 100 hours), 1967(the six days war), 1970(the monthly toll of casualties was
too high even in egyptian standards so they stopped the war of attrition),
1973(decisively defeated the syrian and egyptian armies despite terrible
openning conditions), 1982(wiped out the entire huge syrian air defence array
in east lebanon, and 100 fighters, in 3 or 4 hours, with not a single loss).
there were no other arab israeli wars. so this means we won them all.
oh, in 1991, in return for tolerating the damage caused by a total of only 10
tons of explosives ( saddam extended scuds range by using much smaller
warheads, so 40 scuds x 0.25T = 10 tons ) , a negligible amount in air power
terms, in return we got the wipeout of the iraqi military fighting force.
israeli military planners no longer have to account the iraqi armored
divisions in case of war as they had to do in 1967 and 1973. so it was
definitely worth it. 10 tons that killed less than 10 people, in returned for
the destruction of the iraqi military.
and the endless fighting vs. the palestinians and hezballa terrorism is what
is now called low-intensity-conflict in which we significantly limit ourselves
in the use of our power for various political and moral reasons. if any of
those conflicts had been a real threat to us, our response would end those
conflicts very fast.
5.the "hannuka" victory, which was in fact a series of victories of a
relatively small and ill-equipped rebel force, who defeated several larger
hellenic imperial military forces, gave us 200 years of peaceful independence,
until the romans came. this is still 4 times longer then our present, third
independence period. so i guess it's worth being celebrated.
6. your last sentence was not a question but a claim. a historically wrong
claim. you have various historical periods mixed in your head. we've discussed
that before.
i hope my answers to your series of questions is satisfactory. i tried to
answer briefly.
>BTW, Hellenes (much like Arabs) have a more justified claim to Palestine
>than the Jews will ever have.
you may keep this OPINION. regardless of its contradiction with history.
Israel is NOT cyprus. greek culture and language is spoken in cyprus for
thousands of years. israel is a VERY different case. unlike the arabs, there's
no case whatsoever for a greek claim for THIS land. actually NO ONE makes such
a claim except you Mr. P., the mad greek nationalist. you're a joke.
>How many years (since the birth of Christ, our Lord and Savior)
As always, this is the right time to remind you that jesus was a JEW, and
there's nothing you can do about this FACT.
>has that area been under Hellenic control,
very short, and that was an occupation by aliens who came from far away.
>and how many under Israelite?
much more, i've written the figures in length before.
>So go hold your mongoloid Turkish buddy's hand,
besides ignoring your use of words you so much complained for and your obvious
rascist mind, what the hell are you talking about ?
>and pray that the new Helleno-Egyptian-Syrian alliance doesn't send the lot
>of you searching the the desert for 40 years! haha...
I'm not sure what chemical you're on, but in case you're sober :
1. what alliance are you referring to? there's an agreement for military
cooperation ( not at war, just cooperation ) between greece and syria, which
was signed only as a DECLERATIVE response to the growing effect of the
israeli-turkish military cooperation.
2. i would pick other partners for a military alliance, partners which won all
their wars, not lost all their wars.
3. actually the arabs thought of sending us swimming in the sea.
>oh, unless GPS is an Israeli R&D product developed to overcome ..
GPS is an american defence product. israel has so many technological
achievemtns on its record, that it does not have to make false claim for some
one else's acheivements. and GPS is an impressive american product.
>Have you ever questioned those people's "patriotism" as you question mine?
First of all, yes, we do. second, they were born outside of israel and came to
israel to be israelis. you on the other hand were born in greece and came to
america to remain a fanatic greek nationalist. it's the opposite case.
>BTW, go build a Navy before we go shell your RECOGNIZED capital of Tel
>Aviv.
1. we have a navy, not a big one, but a VERY effective one. actually the only
part of the IDF which came out of the yom-kippur war with a big smile. they
sank 13 syrian and egyptian warships, and kept the rest besieged at port,
afraid to sail out. and all that with no casualties. except 2 divers who sank
3 vessels of the egyptian navy inside their port, but were killed by depth
charges on the way back.
2. regardless of the potential of the israeli navy, the IAF is quite capable
of sinking any ship between tel-aviv and piraeus, using combat-proven (see
previous paragraph) israeli designed air-launched Gabriel anti-ship missiles.
( yes, i know you don't believe me, but we do have a fine assorment of locally
designed and built missiles, lethally effective missiles, and they sell great
too ) and if you think the the fighters themselves will be stopped, i remind
you of the IAF's well known air-to-air performance. the IAF has always
extended air-superiority very deep into enemy territory at wars.
3. our capital is Jerusalem. Tel-Aviv is the business center, like Washington
and New-York.
4. what the hell are you talking about anyway. the only person which have such
lunatic ideas about a greek-israeli war is you. you're just "nuts" . you know
damn well that there's not going to be any such war, it's like saying the US
is going to attack the UK tomorrow morning, it's only your insane mind so full
of mad hatred that could possibly come up with such ideas. you're a disgrace
to your people and to any decent patriotic greeks ( and i've said before that
i'm personally in favor of the greek side vs. turkey )
what about Iran ? they caused your people great trouble in the far past, you
forgot them ? how about invading iran, like Alexander the greta did ?
or better attack italy, for the roman occupation. yeah.
>Now THINK! If 6 million died, why can't you produce a list of 6 million
>names with some documentation
Come to Yad Vashem and see for yourself, and there's plenty of documentation,
the nazis were beaurocratic "maniacs" who had to have everything printed and
sent in multiple copies to all concerned.
the holocaust and the 6,000,000 figure are well documented facts. it's obvious
that you won't accept that, and i'm not going to try to, reagrdless of the
amounts of facts, figires and any other data i can tell you of.
>(where/when they were born, and some proof
>that they were Jewish)?
the jewish history of europe is part of europe's undisputed history, including
census numbers of the relevant countries, culture etc. and of course lots of
ducuments, like in everywhere.
>case, then that says a lot about your people! In any case, you can't have
>it both ways.
regardless of your comments about the jewish resistance during the holocaust,
i think even your blind narrow mind can understand the link between the
immense loss in WW2 and the fierce, stubborn fighting of their israeli
relatives in 1948 and the wars that followed. and we, the israelis who grew up
in the years after WW2, were raised on the history and the results of this
traumatic event, we learned about it at school, we had relatives with numbers
tatooed on their hands who could not have children and had to take medications
daily for the rest of their lives because of the unrepairable damage to their
bodies in the terrible conditions of nazi death camps, and we all saw the
documents, the films, the terrible pictures of the holocaust.
the more educated ones of us studied nazism and ww2 in greater detail.
with that traumatic national memory, even you can understand why we fought so
fiercely in israel's wars. we were determined to NEVER let this happen to us
again !
>And who the hell is the Catholic Church or the Pope? You tell me this as
>if the opinion of a heretic holds any water.
sorry, how could i forget. leave aside the greek-israeli war you so eagerly
wait for. it's time for a holy war against the heretics of the other church,
who dare to believe in Christ in a somewhat differenct way.... you're insane.
actually you should start a war at everything not "hellenic"
btw, i don't know how many believers the greek church has, but i know the
catholic church is blooming and has well over bilion believers. some of them
just read your opinion on their beliefs...
>reliable source there, tough guy), you failed to mention the most populous
>type in HAF service, the A-7E. That says a lot about your other figures
>(and the "sources" you use for them).
er, i never discussed the types of aircraft of the greek air force. i never
found this interesting. you confuse me with someone else. which says a lot
about your general mental confusion.
>And you dared mention the N/F-5A/B???
no. it was someone else. in another thread. i suppose. never seen any
discussion of it.
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
Vasilios Pilarinos
Mr. Uri Noy,
Don't you know it's bad manners to talk about someone behind their back?
Were it not for my brother I would not know that you had posted this.
You could have e-mailed it to me, but I can the cowardice of you as an
individual matches that of your people in general.
I didn't bother to read your post past the first mention of my name, as I
don't know you
Uri Noy
In article <6febtg$2...@news9.noc.netcom.net>, Vasilios Pilarinos
>Shouldn't you be importing an African/Arab/Hindu to screw your wife while
>you bugger your buddy's ass?
white net"
>Hell, I don't even give a fuck about military aircraft but from now on
>I'll post just to piss YOU off.
As agent K said in MIB : "..young man, you have no idea who you're messing
with." ...
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
Tarver Engineering
On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 19:07:08 GMT, uri...@ibm.net (Uri Noy) wrote:
>In article <35299e2c...@news.tminet.com>, jta...@tminet.com (Tarver
>Engineering) wrote:
>>>2. israel is no longer a socialist country. it led nowhere and both main
>>>parties accepted this basic fact.
>>This is a project in work ...
>??? what do you know about it sir ? there were major changes already and
>probably others will follow.
I follow Israel closely. After being nearly deployed ther in the Ford
and Carter Administrations (ADC) Israel is of interest to me. I am an
evangelical Christian, what goes on in Israel is of interest to my
Church.
>>>3.as mentioned before. israel is about to sign, very soon, an agreement to
>>>gradually reduce the civil part ( the non-military sum ) of aid to ZERO in a
>>>few years. it was an israeli initiative. one of the very few positive ideas of
>>>the current government i'm afraid.
>>How many decades?
>one . 12 years to be exact. that's all. and i remind you it was our
>initiative.
>>You can not get there without peace.
>get where?
>but in essence i agree with you. there's a great difference between israel's
>economy in the days of the peace-making Rabin government and the present
>government which does everything it can to stall and even take things
>backwards.
Peace in Israel is a good thing. There is no possibility that Israel
as a Nation will cease to exist in my lifetime. I will go there and
kill the attackers myself.
John
Vasilios Pilarinos
Uri Noy <uri...@ibm.net> wrote:
% > Shouldn't you be importing an African/Arab/Hindu to screw your wife
% > while you bugger your buddy's ass?
%
% another racist pervert little shit.. go start your own internet, the "great
% white net"
I'd really like to see you kick me out of this one. ;-)
You know, an Israeli calling anyone a racist is kind of comical. You
even treat Egyptian and African _Jews_ like the plague (remember the
warning about Egyptian Jews and AIDS a while back?) and dogs are better
treated here in the US than Palestinians in Israel. We have a saying in
Greek .. sto spiti tou kremasmenou den milane gia shoini .. in the house
of the hanged man they don't talk about rope. Think about that for a sec.
% >Hell, I don't even give a fuck about military aircraft but from now on
% >I'll post just to piss YOU off.
%
% As agent K said in MIB : "..young man, you have no idea who you're messing
% with." ...
This isn't Hollywood, shit-for-brains. As for who you are, you're the guy
in whose house I'll be vacationing when the Arabs throw your kind to the
Mediterranean and start renting out the homes to tourists.
% Uri Noy
% ISRAEL
BTW -- in case you missed the previous post, GO FUCK YOURSELF.
Have a nice day. :-)
Vasilios Pilarinos
Uri Noy <uri...@ibm.net> wrote:
% [snip]
% I wanted to treat the Pilarinos brother with a fresh start, but his words
% clearly shows that the two are alike. i'll ignore him then. saves time.
Ignore them, or can't answer my questions? Here it is again for you--
"someone" other than me cancelled my previous post before it got wide
distribution-- that wasn't you by any chance, was it Uri?
--repost-- :)
Mr. Uri Noy,
Don't you know it's bad manners to talk about someone behind their back?
Were it not for my brother I would not know that you had posted this.
You could have e-mailed it to me, but I can see the cowardice of you as an
individual matches that of your people in general.
The first quote you displayed is an inside joke between me and a few
"I just thought you guys might find this enlighting. we know Mr. Pilarinos
a bit better now. this time based on his own words."
You are a moron. Someone who is so opposed to "racism" and "anti-Semitism"
should "know" that no two people are the same and ones words can't be
used to represent another, right? Or does that only apply to anti-Semites,
you hyppocrite?
Good luck, my friend. The good Lord knows you need it.
% Uri Noy
% ISRAEL
--
Carlo Kopp
Uri Noy wrote:
>
> In article <351A14C8...@aus.net>, Carlo Kopp <Carlo.Ko...@aus.net>
> wrote:
> >A sad fact of life. $$$$$ seem to be regarded as much more important
> >than containing third world WMD capabilities.
>
> since the money sums involded are so temptingly high, there are only 2 ways to
> stop those death traders. 1. by law, if you can have enough proof aceptable at
> court. this requires espionage. but Mr. P. dislikes that. 2. threats or even
> use of personal violence at key figures. this is effective but is rarely used
> for its political side effects.
The problem with the covert peddling of technology is indeed that it is
hard to prove and hard to contain. Moreover, with dual use technology a
regime can legitimately purchase equipment, and then use it for the
wrong purposes. This is not a new problem either, the classic case were
the high precision Japanese machine tools which ended up being used to
machine props for submarines in a certain now defunct empire.
Containment by legislation or threatening perpetrators unfortunately
puts the focus elsewhere than upon the purchasing party. A good case can
be made for ops like the Osirak raid, since it both discourages the
misbehaving regime, and importantly focusses public attention on them,
which is highly desirable.
>
> >Thanks Uri. Many people seem to think that the WMD threat from third
> >world countries is not a serious issue.
>
> every citizen of the free world should remember how easy it was to detonate a
> large bomb under the world trade center in NYC and kill dosens by gas in the
> tokyo subway. today you don't need an exppensive ICBM to kill masses in NYC,
> london, or any other western city. you can ship of fly the weapon itself
> there, and then just use it. apparently many people can't understand this
> simple fact. so if a dictator who repeatedly demostrated his willingness to
> use weapons of mass destruction wants to do it. he CAN.
The scary thing is that so many people in the West seem to think that
since we can whip any of these regimes in an honest fight, that they
will behave themselves. Unfortunately the typical response is to bypass
conventional warfare, and move into unconventional warfare such as
terrorism and WMD.
>
> >The "hear no evil, see no evil" attitude which many people in the West
> >have toward this threat is as scary as the threat itself.
> this pattern has repeated itself so many times in history coz many refuse to
> learn. people, busy with their personal matters until a known threat which
> they preferred to ignore, reaches them, personally, and they personally pay a
> very high price. whether at war, or terrorism, or economic disaster or
> whatever. that they could avoid if they had done something when they could.
> and examples abound.
>
I had an interesting experience reading through a 1937 published
encyclopedia some months ago. Adolf Hitler was spoken of in very
respectful terms, and the style of commentary sounded so similar to what
we hear today in the media, when various ill-behaved regimes leaders are
discussed. All so _very_ respectful.
I suspect that we in the West as a community extend to such regimes the
benefit of the doubt in judgement, when the evidence unambiguously
indicates otherwise.
The problem with nasties and lunatics is that leaving them alone will
not change their nasty behaviour.
Cheers,
Carlo
Uri Noy
In article <35318439...@news.tminet.com>, jta...@tminet.com (Tarver
>Peace in Israel is a good thing. There is no possibility that Israel
>as a Nation will cease to exist in my lifetime.
this is true. Second, israel's existence is not everything, i'm concerned
about israel's nature, it's future position and direction, for me, my
children, and my country, which i want to keep prospering.
>I will go there and kill the attackers myself.
Er, forgive me, but this seems a bit like high words, i suppose if it ever
comes to it, it would be US amred forces, not you personally, and besides, it
might be too late. i think the best solution is to continue the way taken so
far, israeli soldiers guard israel, while you, our only real ally, support us
one way or another, but we don't want you do have to die for us.
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
Tarver Engineering
On Sun, 29 Mar 1998 22:37:19 GMT, uri...@ibm.net (Uri Noy) wrote:
>In article <35318439...@news.tminet.com>, jta...@tminet.com (Tarver
>Engineering) wrote:
>>Peace in Israel is a good thing. There is no possibility that Israel
>>as a Nation will cease to exist in my lifetime.
>First, we in israel can't afford to assume anything, but rather ensure that
>this is true. Second, israel's existence is not everything, i'm concerned
>about israel's nature, it's future position and direction, for me, my
>children, and my country, which i want to keep prospering.
I think it is best that Israel defend herself. This is why the United
States sends all those dollars to you. It would be in both our best
interest for Israel to become self supporting, however. When we quit
sending money then you can claim to have achieved that goal; not
before.
>>I will go there and kill the attackers myself.
>Er, forgive me, but this seems a bit like high words, i suppose if it ever
>comes to it, it would be US amred forces, not you personally, and besides, it
>might be too late. i think the best solution is to continue the way taken so
>far, israeli soldiers guard israel, while you, our only real ally, support us
>one way or another, but we don't want you do have to die for us.
I never said that we would die.
John
Ragnar Otterstad
>. the volume of agricultural export is decreasing, and tourism is not
growing.
I am not surprised. I for one will not visit the Israel before it starts
to treat the natives, i.e Palestinians
decently and remove the Jewish ( mostly Amrican ) intruders on the West
Bank and Gaza.
With respect
Dave Stein
Jeeze, I hate to get into off topic discussions, but this guy's insulted
me so.....
>
> Ignore them, or can't answer my questions? Here it is again for you--
> "someone" other than me cancelled my previous post before it got wide
> distribution-- that wasn't you by any chance, was it Uri?
>
--repost-- :)
>
> Mr. Uri Noy,
>
> Don't you know it's bad manners to talk about someone behind their back?
> Were it not for my brother I would not know that you had posted this.
> You could have e-mailed it to me, but I can see the cowardice of you as an
> individual matches that of your people in general.
>
about someone behind their back, and guess what? I'm part of the 'your
people' you are calling cowards so for insulting me, here's your NY
greeting right back at you, FUCK YOU.
>
> The second is a compliment to me-- the reason I hold true to my beliefs,
> is because unlike you, I research them before I hold true to them. They
> are grounded on facts and are unquestionable, undeniable, and true.
>
> As for the Holocaust, etc... cry me a fucking river. (To everyone else,
> pardon the cursing, but the guy is a fuck and deserves it.) Who cares
> about the Holocaust?
MMMM, no, I think your the fuck, and I care about the Holocaust, who the
fuck cares that Turkey took Cyprus?
It happened (in whatever proportions you chose to
> believe it did), it's over and done with, get over it!
The reason I care about it is because it's not quite over. Neo-Nazis
around the world are trying to get everyone to 'forget about it' so they
can attempt it again.
Do you see Russians
> complaining anwywhere and everywhere about how 20 million of them died
> during WWII and another 20 million by Stalin?
Do you see the world's Neo-Nazis calling for the death of modern day
Russians? No, that's why they're not complaining.
Or the Greeks who lost
> 15% of their population from '44-49? No, because they have pride
> and they don't put their suffering as "bait" to get some sympathy. You
> can't even _question_ the figures of the Holocaust without being deemed an
> anti-Semite
>
> 1) A product of an _Orthodox Jew_ home decided to make a film about the
> Orthodox Jew community in NY-- one of the stories included was a married
> Orthodox woman who was cheating on her husband. Orthodox Jews, furious at
> the "absurd" assertion that one of them was less than perfect (if there
> exist a supremist mentality among any people, it's here) protested, sent
> letter to everyone but the president. The future of this movie? It's
> currently on hold. So much for freedom of speech.
>
I'm curious as to your opinion of the fellow who displayed a cross with
Jesus on it in a cup of his own urine and called it art.
>
>
> 3) The only remaining militant NAZIs left in the world are the Ashkenazi
> Jews who are even racist against their Arab descended brethren, who are
> the only ones who could legitimately make _some_ claims on Israeli land.
> Also, the human rights abuses against Palestinians are well known and
> universally condemned (with the exception of the US, of course).
>
> And by the way, since I have a short fuse with idiots, here's a New York
> greeting : GO FUCK YOURSELF.
>
Hey, Vaseline, I have a short fuse with bigots and racists and
anti-semites so : GO GREEK-FUCK YOUR FELLOW MAN UP THE ASS.
> "I just thought you guys might find this enlighting. we know Mr. Pilarinos
> a bit better now. this time based on his own words."
>
> You are a moron. Someone who is so opposed to "racism" and "anti-Semitism"
> should "know" that no two people are the same and ones words can't be
> used to represent another, right? Or does that only apply to anti-Semites,
> you hyppocrite?
>
I, for one, can't tell the difference between your posts and your
brothers. And learn how to sppppell
> Good luck, my friend. The good Lord knows you need it.
>
> Don't need luck this time around. The good Lord has seen fit to teach me that one must learn from the past, so I'm well armed and trained and Israel is doing business from a position of superiority and strength that the Jews never had in the past. It still pisses me off that so many Jews (American, Israeli, what have you) are still 'peaceniks' and leftists and refuse to learn from history. This time around there will be enough of us who believe otherwise and not only won't let us go down without a fight, but won't let us go down at all. (1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, etc. etc. etc.)
I can't wait till your facing Jesus in heaven and he says, "You DO know
I was a Jew, right?" just before he opens the gates of Hell for you.
> --
> * Vasilios L. Pilarinos (vpil...@hellas.org)
> |_ "Silence is the virtue of fools.-F.Bacon" * www.hellas.org/~vpilarin
--
Nothing spoils fun
like finding out
it builds character.
-Calvin
Vasilios Pilarinos
Dave Stein <dave....@oakweb.com> wrote:
% Jeeze, I hate to get into off topic discussions, but this guy's insulted
% me so.....
"This guy's insulted me?" And you tried to make fun of my spelling
hypocrite with two p's instead of one? Just how stupid are you?
% First off, Mr. Paranoia, "no one" cancelled your previous post. I
% clearly saw it posted in this newsgroup (what the hell do you mean by
% 'wide distribution' anyway????). Once you post to the NG, any news
% server with that NG will show your post. Do you subscribe to every news
% server in the world? How would you know it didn't get 'wide dist.'?!?
God, you are such a dumb fuck, aren't you? You don't actually think each
news server is connected to ALL other news servers, do you? It's like a
chain, a *gasp* NET! And if you send a cancel before it propagates
thoroughly it never manages to reach ALL news servers. Now kindly shut the
fuck up about things you obviously know nothing about.
And yes, I have accounts in at least 4 countries and 2 of them never got
my message.
% Here's the quote that got me started. Yes, it's bad manners to talk
% about someone behind their back, and guess what? I'm part of the 'your
% people' you are calling cowards so for insulting me, here's your NY
% greeting right back at you, FUCK YOU.
What makes you a coward is that you would never say that in front of my
face.
% > As for the Holocaust, etc... cry me a fucking river. (To everyone
% > else, pardon the cursing, but the guy is a fuck and deserves it.) Who
% > cares about the Holocaust?
%
% MMMM, no, I think your the fuck, and I care about the Holocaust, who the
% fuck cares that Turkey took Cyprus?
You don't see us bitching about it everywhere, do you? When someone says
John Stamos is a bad actor you don't hear us crying "You are just like
those Turks that slaughtered the Greek Cypriots, you .. you anti-Hellene!
*boo hoo hoo*". Please, get a better argument, thumbdick.
% The reason I care about it is because it's not quite over. Neo-Nazis
% around the world are trying to get everyone to 'forget about it' so they
% can attempt it again.
If you people weren't so in-your-face about the rest of the world owing
you something because Hitler didn't like you very much, then Neo-Nazis
wouldn't want to finish the job he had started. People don't like
crybabies.
% Do you see the world's Neo-Nazis calling for the death of modern day
% Russians? No, that's why they're not complaining.
No, everyone else is looking to finish them off, but they are taking it in
the chin and continue with their lives. If you had done the same, and not
_demand_ to be in the limelight, you wouldn't be having these problems.
% I'm curious as to your opinion of the fellow who displayed a cross with
% Jesus on it in a cup of his own urine and called it art.
If you equate an obvious sacrilegious piece of garbage with infidelity in
_any_ home, your lack of logic is worse than I thought.
%> 3) The only remaining militant NAZIs left in the world are the Ashkenazi
%> Jews who are even racist against their Arab descended brethren, who are
%> the only ones who could legitimately make _some_ claims on Israeli land.
%> Also, the human rights abuses against Palestinians are well known and
%> universally condemned (with the exception of the US, of course).
%>
%> And by the way, since I have a short fuse with idiots, here's a New York
%> greeting : GO FUCK YOURSELF.
%
% Hey, Vaseline, I have a short fuse with bigots and racists and
% anti-semites so : GO GREEK-FUCK YOUR FELLOW MAN UP THE ASS.
Why don't you come and suck my Greek dick, you big-nosed jew fuck? You
have a short fuse with bigots and racists but you obviously enjoy using
the "Greek sex" racist stereotype, huh fuckhead? Do you people realize
just how phony you sound?
% I, for one, can't tell the difference between your posts and your
% brothers. And learn how to sppppell
Like I said above, pot kettle black.
% Don't need luck this time around. The good Lord has seen fit to teach
% me that one must learn from the past, so I'm well armed and trained and
% Israel is doing business from a position of superiority and strength
% that the Jews never had in the past. It still pisses me off that so
% many Jews (American, Israeli, what have you) are still 'peaceniks' and
% leftists and refuse to learn from history. This time around there will
% be enough of us who believe otherwise and not only won't let us go down
% without a fight, but won't let us go down at all. (1948, 1956, 1967,
% 1973, etc. etc. etc.)
Yeah yeah, if the US didn't save your butts each and every time Israeli's
would be half way to the US by now after having been driven out of the
land by the rightful owners.
And btw-- keep sending your money to Israel. That's all they really want
from you. The last thing they want is your American kind "polluting" their
orthodox faith with your reformist and conservative non(according to
them)-jewry.
% I can't wait till your facing Jesus in heaven and he says, "You DO know
% I was a Jew, right?" just before he opens the gates of Hell for you.
Actually he was the Anti-Jew. The more I talk about the people like you,
the more I realize why Jews have been attacked for so long. You DESERVE
it.
% Nothing spoils fun
% like finding out
% it builds character.
% -Calvin
[+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
Uri Noy <uri...@ibm.net> wrote:
: <vpil...@hellas.org> wrote:
: [snip]
:
: I wanted to treat the Pilarinos brother with a fresh start, but his words
: clearly shows that the two are alike. i'll ignore him then. saves time.
What "fresh start" are you talking about, you lying hypocrite?! Before you
even spoke to my brother, you had drawn conslusions about his character
based on what you "assumed" was implied on his web page. You show the
civility, manors, and characteristics of a barbarian... which just goes to
show why you have such a great relationship with the Asiatic Mongols to
our East.
: Uri Noy
: ISRAEL
--
..-------[+=]----------[ Dionysios Pilarinos ]----------[+=]-------.
| 'Soon you'll feed their appetite; they devour..' - Metallica! |
` [ dpil...@hellas.org ] [ www.hellas.org ] '
Lorne D. Gilsig
Dear Dionysios Pilarinos,
I have been following this thread for a while, and stearing clear of it.
I have no idea of who you really are, but your posts paint a very
unfavorable picture of you. Further they have been growing more shrill
and angry over time.
Perhaps you should let this thread drop, before it becomes how you are
known by others.
Just a thought.
Lorne D. Gilsig
[+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
Dave Stein <dave....@oakweb.com> wrote:
: Jeeze, I hate to get into off topic discussions, but this guy's insulted
: me so.....
How has insulted whom, Mr.Stein? You who lauched personal attacks against
me (which I never bothered to reply to), or my brother who "insulted" the
"holy cow" of the "Jewish State"?
:> Ignore them, or can't answer my questions? Here it is again for you--
:> "someone" other than me cancelled my previous post before it got wide
:> distribution-- that wasn't you by any chance, was it Uri?
:
: First off, Mr. Paranoia, "no one" cancelled your previous post. I
: clearly saw it posted in this newsgroup (what the hell do you mean by
: 'wide distribution' anyway????). Once you post to the NG, any news
: server with that NG will show your post. Do you subscribe to every news
: server in the world? How would you know it didn't get 'wide dist.'?!?
From the above statement, one can clearly conclude that you are an
ignorant individual (at least in matters of technology/internet). What
Vasilios was refering to was the fake posting of a cancel message to the
control newsgroup. Of course this means nothing to you, but that is to be
expected. Ignorance is bliss.
:> Mr. Uri Noy,
:> Don't you know it's bad manners to talk about someone behind their back?
:> Were it not for my brother I would not know that you had posted this.
:> You could have e-mailed it to me, but I can see the cowardice of you as an
:> individual matches that of your people in general.
:
: Here's the quote that got me started. Yes, it's bad manners to talk
: about someone behind their back, and guess what? I'm part of the 'your
: people' you are calling cowards so for insulting me, here's your NY
: greeting right back at you, FUCK YOU.
You are not "his people" Mr.Stein. Unless of course you are living in
Israel. Otherwise, you are an unpatriotic pseudo-Jew (according to
Mr.Noy). BTW, are you from New York?
:> The second is a compliment to me-- the reason I hold true to my beliefs,
:> is because unlike you, I research them before I hold true to them. They
:> are grounded on facts and are unquestionable, undeniable, and true.
:>
:> As for the Holocaust, etc... cry me a fucking river. (To everyone else,
:> pardon the cursing, but the guy is a fuck and deserves it.) Who cares
:> about the Holocaust?
:
: MMMM, no, I think your the fuck, and I care about the Holocaust, who the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Remember this for later!
: fuck cares that Turkey took Cyprus?
Great attitude. So just like you don't care to listen about the Cyprus
invasion, spare us the melodramatics of the "holocaust". Incidently,
holocaust is not capitalized, much like most Hellenic words used in the
english language (holocaust = complete destruction by fire).
:> It happened (in whatever proportions you chose to
:> believe it did), it's over and done with, get over it!
:
: The reason I care about it is because it's not quite over. Neo-Nazis
How could it be, if it never started? :)
: around the world are trying to get everyone to 'forget about it' so they
: can attempt it again.
HAhaha... spare us! What, the countless movies, tv programs/shows, events,
political rallies/speaches, "new" documents, "new" findings, are not
enough of a "reminder" for you? Now, how many Jews "forgot about" the 1.5
million Armenians murdered by their new "allies" the Turks (not to mention
the millions of Hellenes, Kurds, Arabs, and others thay have murdered in
this century)? You (and "your people") are a bunch of hypocrites.
:> Do you see Russians
:> complaining anwywhere and everywhere about how 20 million of them died
:> during WWII and another 20 million by Stalin?
:
: Do you see the world's Neo-Nazis calling for the death of modern day
: Russians? No, that's why they're not complaining.
Where do you see these "Neo-Nazis", what state do they control, and HOW
could they achieve what you claim thay are calling for? More
overdramatized lies and propaganda.
:> Or the Greeks who lost
:> 15% of their population from '44-49? No, because they have pride
:> and they don't put their suffering as "bait" to get some sympathy. You
:> can't even _question_ the figures of the Holocaust without being deemed an
:> anti-Semite
Oh wow! No comment.
:> 1) A product of an _Orthodox Jew_ home decided to make a film about the
:> Orthodox Jew community in NY-- one of the stories included was a married
:> Orthodox woman who was cheating on her husband. Orthodox Jews, furious at
:> the "absurd" assertion that one of them was less than perfect (if there
:> exist a supremist mentality among any people, it's here) protested, sent
:> letter to everyone but the president. The future of this movie? It's
:> currently on hold. So much for freedom of speech.
:
: I'm curious as to your opinion of the fellow who displayed a cross with
: Jesus on it in a cup of his own urine and called it art.
Did you see anyone STOPPING him? Did you see anyone STOPPING the film "The
last temptation"? It's called freedom of speach, something denied if it's
deemed "anti-Semitic"!
: Hey, Vaseline, I have a short fuse with bigots and racists and
: anti-semites so : GO GREEK-FUCK YOUR FELLOW MAN UP THE ASS.
Mr.Stein has a problem with "bigots and racists", but goes on to use a
racist remark like "Greek-fuck". More hypocracy? And playing around with
peoples names? It would be funnier if one would comment on UriNal (Uri
Noy) and Stein (the cup to keep urine in). :) Now THAT is funny!
: I, for one, can't tell the difference between your posts and your
: brothers. And learn how to sppppell
Learn English grammar first, before you go around giving
lessons/suggestions on the language. Your previous remark: "I think your
the fuck". That should be "you're" as in YOU ARE. Ignorance...
:> Good luck, my friend. The good Lord knows you need it.
:
: Don't need luck this time around. The good Lord has seen fit to teach me
: that one must learn from the past, so I'm well armed and trained and
*YOU* are well armed and trained? Hehe.. in WHAT and WITH WHAT?
: Israel is doing business from a position of superiority and strength
: that the Jews never had in the past.
What superiority? If not for the US, you wouldn't even exist. And both
your economy and military (even compared to your neighbors) leaves MUCH to
be desired.
: It still pisses me off that so many Jews (American, Israeli, what have
: you) are still 'peaceniks' and leftists and refuse to learn from
: history.
Compared to being good Zionists like yourself and Mr.Noy, right?
: This time around there will be enough of us who believe otherwise and
: not only won't let us go down without a fight, but won't let us go down
: at all. (1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, etc. etc. etc.)
Let's all thank Uncle Sam! It is funny how Zionists keep mentioning all
these numerous "victories" of this century. Well... prior to '48, one
would have to look back 2 millennia to find another Jewish "victory". And
I just LOVE the stats that they give about these "victories". "We
destroyed 100 planes in 4 hours... with no loses". Yeah.. and according to
your own "figures", you lost "6 million" without any evidence of
inflicting loses against the Nazis (and this was 1942-45).
: I can't wait till your facing Jesus in heaven and he says, "You DO know
: I was a Jew, right?" just before he opens the gates of Hell for you.
Wow, do you believe in Jesus? And if so, does it say anything to you that
the Jews put him on the cross, and that the Apostles (guided by the
Almighty) used the Hellenic language to spread His word to the masses
(which BTW the Hellenic Nation was the first to accept as a whole)?
Incidently, Jesus *WAS* a Jew when he took on the human form to spread His
teachings. God (regardless of what your racist religion states), does not
belong to a single nation, nor does He have a "favored" nation.
[+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
Uri Noy <uri...@ibm.net> wrote:
:>that says anything "negative" about Israel.
: Israel has nothing to do with it. it's you mister.
It's me WHAT? Learn how to quote, and learn to write complete sentences.
:>your lack of a social life.
: quite the opposite. telling my friends about you and your opinions and way of
: thought is a new source for good laughs.
Wow, you must be popular with the gals! Sitting around talking about
USENET... what a life. Quite frankly, I wouldn't insult my friends by
having to talk to them about you or your comments.
:>or are you "surfing" when at work?
: no i'm not. i told you what i do at work, right ? and it pays well too.
I'm sure it does. And I'm sure your state loves it when they take 50% of
it away from you.
:>Haha.. more facts for your Zionist mind to ponder. What percent of
:>Israel's GDP do the 3.4 billion US $ you get from US tax-payers,
:>constitute (you beggers)? How many Zionists supported Hitler and how many
:>supported the Soviets when they were targeting Jews? (well documented by
:>jews and non-Jews; you "loving" brothers)? How many wars have you won in
:>your history (you "mighty" warriors)? Oh... let's all celebrate hanukkah
:>(a short lived victory), and forget that since that "victory" by your
:>side, the "defeated" party ruled over Palestine for almost a thousand
:>years (and you loved it :) )!
:
: that's a lot of questions. the answers are:
:
: 1. about 12%,
Is there a "rush" of pride running through your body when you admit this?
:)
: 2. three people, the leaders of the stern gang. on the other hand the jewish
: population in here, still under british mandate, stopped all resistance
: to the british in favor of true cooperation ( on both sides ) and many
: thousands joined the british armed forces to fight the nazis.
What jewish population? The fact is that jewish units in the British
military saw LIMITED combat (most didn't even hold combat positions). And
you are refering to the quite LIMITED Jewish population of pre-war
Palestine.
: 3. very few, misled by soviet propaganda, like others everywhere in the world
Again... few supported Hitler, and few again (always "misled") the
Soviets. In any case, you seem to now accept the fact that Jews took part
in the murder of other Jews (something you claimed had not happened in
millennia).
: 4. we won many wars. how far do you want to look back. to 1948, or to king
Try 2000 years (or since the birth of Christ). And the answer is *NONE*
prior to the end of the second World War.
: david who was the "napoleon" of his time, in regional proportions of course,
: or to the many times we defeated much larger and better equipped imperial
: armies ( the hellenic of course, several times, but armies of other empires
: too, all along our history )
What is "several times"? Get real already... the Selucid Empire was *A*
Hellenic Empire (a falling one), not *THE* Hellenic Empire (or
Alexander's Empire). And again, what exactly did you achieve with that
short lived victory against a falling empire, that you had to "celebrate"
it for 2000 years? Maybe because you have nothing else to celebrate (since
your history is full of defeat after defeat)?
: if you prefer the shorter scope (since 1948), here it is. we won, decicively,
You go from BC, to 1948! Nothing to show for 2,000 year.
[snip]
: and the endless fighting vs. the palestinians and hezballa terrorism is what
Hezbollah and the PLO are not terrorist organizations. The first is
fighting a war of liberation against an illegal occupation (as it is
declared by the UN). The same applies for the PLO, with the addition that
they also seek equal rights for the Palestinians of Israel.
: is now called low-intensity-conflict in which we significantly limit
: ourselves in the use of our power for various political and moral
: reasons.
Israel has no morals, as I indicated to you on a number of times (you
ACCEPTED those FACTS).
: if any of those conflicts had been a real threat to us, our response
: would end those conflicts very fast.
Haha.. you sound like the Turks who excuse their inability to stop the PKK
after 13 years of war!
: 5.the "hannuka" victory, which was in fact a series of victories of a
: relatively small and ill-equipped rebel force, who defeated several larger
: hellenic imperial military forces, gave us 200 years of peaceful
The only thing Hellenic about the empire you are refering to, was its
administration. And since the death of Alexander, the break up of the
empire, the fighting between the successors, and the uprising in the East,
the Selucids were not the military force you Jews make them out to be.
: independence, until the romans came. this is still 4 times longer then
: our present, third independence period. so i guess it's worth being
: celebrated.
Let us take a look at your ignorance. Since the establishment of the
Hellenic state (1830; independence declared in 1821) over 168 years have
passed. Which calculation are you using this time to come to the
conclusion that 200 years is "4 times longer" than 168 (or 177) years?
: 6. your last sentence was not a question but a claim. a historically wrong
: claim. you have various historical periods mixed in your head. we've
: discussed that before.
Great. So why don't you tell us HOW MANY YEARS Palestine was under
Byzantine/Eastern Roman control? Read the history of the region, not the
fairy tales they teach you in Israel.
: i hope my answers to your series of questions is satisfactory. i tried to
: answer briefly.
I doubt anyone would be satisfied with them (unless they were a Zionist or
a Mongol looking to appease his new ally).
:>BTW, Hellenes (much like Arabs) have a more justified claim to Palestine
:>than the Jews will ever have.
:
: you may keep this OPINION. regardless of its contradiction with history.
Looking at the NUMBER OF YEARS that region has been in Hellenic or Arab
control, my statement STANDS. Not that Hellas has any claims to your
desert (yet). :) We'll be satisfied for now if you stop oppressing the
Orthodox church there.
: Israel is NOT cyprus. greek culture and language is spoken in cyprus for
: thousands of years. israel is a VERY different case. unlike the arabs,
: there's no case whatsoever for a greek claim for THIS land. actually NO
: ONE makes such a claim except you Mr. P., the mad greek nationalist.
: you're a joke.
Hellenic culture and language existed and was spoken in Palestine for
THOUSANDS of years (and it exists even to this day in limited numbers).
The same could be said about Alexandria/northen Egypt. But due to the
racist practices of the Israelis, that number has been reduced.
:>How many years (since the birth of Christ, our Lord and Savior)
:
: As always, this is the right time to remind you that jesus was a JEW, and
: there's nothing you can do about this FACT.
God has no nationality, you racist fool. But that is not what they teach
you in your religion, right? When he took on the human form, He chose to
be born into a Jewish environment. Maybe it was because He knew that the
Jews were going to betray him, much like Judas did.
:>has that area been under Hellenic control,
:
: very short, and that was an occupation by aliens who came from far away.
Define short. And let us compare the years (since the birth of Christ,
that is AD) that the region has been under Hellenic/Byzantine/Eastern
Roman control, and how many under Israelite.
:>and how many under Israelite?
:
: much more, i've written the figures in length before.
Much more?? Show me how LESS than 50 (FIFTY) years is more than over 1000
(a THOUSAND).
:>So go hold your mongoloid Turkish buddy's hand,
:
: besides ignoring your use of words you so much complained for and your
: obvious rascist mind, what the hell are you talking about ?
What is "racist" (you ignoramus) about calling a Turk mongoloid? Would you
be offended if I called you a Semitic Israelite? I was refering to your
new supporter, Mr.Oguz.
:>and pray that the new Helleno-Egyptian-Syrian alliance doesn't send the lot
:>of you searching the the desert for 40 years! haha...
:
: I'm not sure what chemical you're on, but in case you're sober :
: 1. what alliance are you referring to? there's an agreement for military
: cooperation ( not at war, just cooperation ) between greece and syria, which
: was signed only as a DECLERATIVE response to the growing effect of the
: israeli-turkish military cooperation.
Have you SEEN the agreement? Of course not, since you are making
ASSUMPTIONS about something you know nothing (or very little) about. And
there exists a similar agreement with Egypt.
: 2. i would pick other partners for a military alliance, partners which
: won all their wars, not lost all their wars.
: 3. actually the arabs thought of sending us swimming in the sea.
Take a good look at the inventory the Egyptians (and Syrians) are
sporting, and then take a good look at your own. Enjoy. :)
:>oh, unless GPS is an Israeli R&D product developed to overcome ..
:
: GPS is an american defence product. israel has so many technological
: achievemtns on its record, that it does not have to make false claim for some
: one else's acheivements. and GPS is an impressive american product.
Tell me of *ONE* *ISRAELI* technological achievement (by an Israeli
private or government company/institution). And please don't mention MMX
and Intel... we've discussed this already.
:>Have you ever questioned those people's "patriotism" as you question mine?
:
: First of all, yes, we do. second, they were born outside of israel and
: came to israel to be israelis. you on the other hand were born in
: greece and came to america to remain a fanatic greek nationalist. it's
: the opposite case.
Are you an American, or live in the US? If NOT, the correct term to use is
WENT to America, not CAME (unless you view American as your property/cash
cow or whatever). Like I already stated, I am a Hellenic citizen CREATING
CAPITAL for the US. Simply because I am currently and temporarily outside
of Hellas' borders is irrelevant (unless you would like to show us how it
IS relevant).
:>BTW, go build a Navy before we go shell your RECOGNIZED capital of Tel
:>Aviv.
:
: 1. we have a navy, not a big one, but a VERY effective one. actually the only
[snip]
How is it "effective". What EQUIPMENT does it use, what kind of TRAINING
does it have, etc.? Not only do Israelis lack any "history" at sea (other
than shipping slaves to America - still no "tradition" compared to the
Hellenic or British ones), they also lack any training/exercises similar
to those conducted by NATO (and please don't mention that pathetic SAR
exercise with the USN and Turkey).
: 2. regardless of the potential of the israeli navy, the IAF is quite capable
: of sinking any ship between tel-aviv and piraeus, using combat-proven (see
: previous paragraph) israeli designed air-launched Gabriel anti-ship missiles.
I would imagine that your Gabriels are "superior" to the Exocets the HAF
is using, or that the IDF F-16's/F-15's would "easily" get past Hellenic
ships "sporting" Standard and SeaSparrow missiles (or the countless
islands with SAM installations)! Smell the sarcasm? And I won't mention
the HAF planes that not only are "comparable" to IAF planes, they also get
daily training against Turkish pilots (flying F-16's). But hey... keep
that chip on your shoulder. You guys are the "best". :)
: ( yes, i know you don't believe me, but we do have a fine assorment of
: locally designed and built missiles, lethally effective missiles, and
: they sell great too )
Which country (given the choice to buy the more expensive Western
missiles), would choose Israeli missiles? None. Unless you count the
"political" reasons that cause countries like Turkey to buy Popeye
missiles, etc.
: and if you think the the fighters themselves will be stopped, i remind
: you of the IAF's well known air-to-air performance. the IAF has always
: extended air-superiority very deep into enemy territory at wars.
Yeah, and who were your enemies, and who is the HAF?
: 3. our capital is Jerusalem. Tel-Aviv is the business center, like Washington
: and New-York.
Tel Aviv is the only recognized capital of Israel. Jerusalem is occupied
illegally by the Israel military.
: 4. what the hell are you talking about anyway. the only person which
: have such lunatic ideas about a greek-israeli war is you. you're just
No Helleno-Israeli war. But the fact is that Israel violates
Leukosia/Nikosia FIR more so than do the Turks (military aircraft). Fact
of the matter is that Israel has chosen to ally itself with Turkey. Now,
if a war break out between Hellas and Turkey, do you find it that
extremely remote for an "exchange" between Hellas and Israel. And in any
case, one must plan for any remote possibility.
: "nuts" . you know damn well that there's not going to be any such war,
: it's like saying the US is going to attack the UK tomorrow morning,
Helleno-Israeli relations are by no means comaparble to US-UK ones. Hellas
recognized Israel less than 10 years ago, we do not belong in any
alliance, you constanly violate Cypriot airspace, etc.
: it's only your insane mind so full
: of mad hatred that could possibly come up with such ideas. you're a disgrace
: to your people and to any decent patriotic greeks ( and i've said before that
: i'm personally in favor of the greek side vs. turkey )
What is this, a football game that you can take sides in?? Get real, you
Zionist bigot.
: what about Iran ? they caused your people great trouble in the far past, you
: forgot them ? how about invading iran, like Alexander the greta did ?
: or better attack italy, for the roman occupation. yeah.
Unlike Iran and Italy, Zionists are making claims against Hellas, and
allying themselves with our enemies.
:>Now THINK! If 6 million died, why can't you produce a list of 6 million
:>names with some documentation
[snip your response of no data/documentation]
:>(where/when they were born, and some proof
:>that they were Jewish)?
: the jewish history of europe is part of europe's undisputed history,
[snip]
Oh.. I see, this is part of "undisputed history"! I take this to mean
"Zionist propaganda no one has a right to object to".
:>case, then that says a lot about your people! In any case, you can't have
:>it both ways.
:
: regardless of your comments about the jewish resistance during the holocaust,
: i think even your blind narrow mind can understand the link between the
: immense loss in WW2 and the fierce, stubborn fighting of their israeli
: relatives in 1948 and the wars that followed. and we, the israelis who
Stop your pathetic propaganda! If the "holocaust" took place, then excuse
the non-resistance of your people. And please don't dare compare a
resistence to genocide (if it took place as you claim), with the
expansionist and racist actions of post-war Israel. How could you anyway?
With the mentality "The Nazi's murdered us and we took it", and then
"since we took it, let's do the same to the Palestinians"!?
: grew up
: in the years after WW2, were raised on the history and the results of this
: traumatic event, we learned about it at school, we had relatives with numbers
: tatooed on their hands who could not have children and had to take
Look at the tattoo. How many NUMBERS/DIGITS does it have? Does it have 4
or 5, or does it *7* (the number of digits needed to document over a
million prisoners)? And if the Nazis were planning on murdering the Jews
in a planned genocide, why did they bother castrating people? Did you ever
stop to think about these things prior to accepting them at face value?
: medications
: daily for the rest of their lives because of the unrepairable damage to their
: bodies in the terrible conditions of nazi death camps, and we all saw the
: documents, the films, the terrible pictures of the holocaust.
Spare us already! Such images of "living skeletons" existed in Hellas,
Russia, and a number of nations (which don't claim a "holocaust" against
their people). People were STARVING to death and DYING of diseases. Of
course you can blame the Germans for it, as you can the Italians,
Bulgarians, Croats, Roumanians, Japanese, etc.. But that does not satisfy
you, since you need and needed the myth of a holocaust to excuse the need
for the creation and maintenance of a Jewish state.
[snip]
:>And who the hell is the Catholic Church or the Pope? You tell me this as
:>if the opinion of a heretic holds any water.
:
: sorry, how could i forget. leave aside the greek-israeli war you so eagerly
: wait for. it's time for a holy war against the heretics of the other church,
: who dare to believe in Christ in a somewhat differenct way.... you're insane.
No, you are insane if you think that the Pope's position holds any water
with me (hell, it doesn't hold water with MOST CATHOLICS).
: actually you should start a war at everything not "hellenic"
: btw, i don't know how many believers the greek church has, but i know the
: catholic church is blooming and has well over bilion believers. some of them
: just read your opinion on their beliefs...
Big deal. Maybe I should follow your national passtime of "brown-nosing".
The number of "Catholics", much like the number of "Christians" is not
indicative of anything. How many real FOLLOWERS does the Catholic church
really have (don't simply count those "born into" the religion)?
:>reliable source there, tough guy), you failed to mention the most populous
:>type in HAF service, the A-7E. That says a lot about your other figures
:>(and the "sources" you use for them).
:
: er, i never discussed the types of aircraft of the greek air force. i never
: found this interesting. you confuse me with someone else. which says a lot
: about your general mental confusion.
I was talking to the Mongol that rushed to support you. Was this so
difficult for you to follow?
: Uri Noy
: ISRAEL
Uri Noy
In article <01bd5b0a$63defa80$0b00a8c0@Cyber>, "Ragnar Otterstad"
<dan...@inet.uni-c.dk> wrote:
>>. the volume of agricultural export is decreasing, and tourism is not growing.
>I am not surprised. I for one will not visit the Israel before it starts
>to treat the natives, i.e Palestinians
>decently and remove the Jewish ( mostly Amrican ) intruders on the West
>Bank and Gaza.
First of all, the decrease in agriculture is due to internal changes in our
economy which make simple common agriculture less profitable. those who grow
'special' stuff, such as flowers, winter growings ( in the desert ) and exotic
fruits have great success. it's only the total volume that's decreasing.
As for tourism, I was'nt complaining and not surprised either.
The political situation scares some tourists away.
I do not agree with my government's policy and did not vote for it.
But i'm sure you agree that democracy is better than all other methods.
As for the settlers you call intruders, i also don't want them there, for
political reasons, but first, they're not mostly american, they're israelis of
all sorts, and second, they do have the principal right to settle there, but
there are two problems about it, since settling has political aspects :
1. there's a political dispute about settling there
2. the settlers themselves are not 'clean haned' , some of them do things
deliberately to annoy the arabs and to 'boil' the situation further.
this is why many israelis dislike the settlers very much.
And last thing, it's not a single side bad vs good situation. the palestinian
leadership is also playing a very dirty game which is expressed not only by
bombs in busses but also in other terms. and that was even in the initial days
after they signed the oslo agreement with Mr. Rabin. they violated a growing
number of agreements from day 1.
My hope is that israel's next leader will have the strength and courage to
tell the palestinians positively that they're going to get their independence,
and in return demand full execution of what the palestinians pledged for.
And i hope this happen before the current situation will deteriorate to
another war, a totally unnecessary war.
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
Tarver Engineering
On Tue, 31 Mar 1998 00:06:39 GMT, uri...@ibm.net (Uri Noy) wrote:
<snip>
>>I can't wait till your facing Jesus in heaven and he says, "You DO know
>>I was a Jew, right?" just before he opens the gates of Hell for you.
>it's never the wrong moment to remind an antisemitic that christ was a jew.
>but the P. brothers have'nt yet finished their quarrel with the pope about the
>"true" church of the faith.
The Pope claims that the Catholic Church was the first Christian
Church. This is a little hard to buy if one reads Acts and sees
Stephen founding the Greek Church 400 years earlier. This Jew was
then Killed by another Jew named Saul. Then again, you could read
about most of this in Isaiah if you don't have the New Testament.
The real question becomes, did the New Covenant, between Man and God,
cancel the old.
John
Uri Noy
In article <351EA7...@oakweb.com>, ave...@oakweb.com wrote:
>> First off, Mr. Paranoia, "no one" cancelled your previous post.
first post. short fuze.
>and I care about the Holocaust, who the
>fuck cares that Turkey took Cyprus?
Er, dave, let's not lower ourselves to the level of Mr. P. the cypriots, most
of them of greek culture, suffered a lot from the turkish invasion. the sad
fact that Mr. P. in on their side is irrelevant to their moral claim.
>I can't wait till your facing Jesus in heaven and he says, "You DO know
>I was a Jew, right?" just before he opens the gates of Hell for you.
it's never the wrong moment to remind an antisemitic that christ was a jew.
but the P. brothers have'nt yet finished their quarrel with the pope about the
"true" church of the faith.
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
Uri Noy
In article <6fojko$8...@news9.noc.netcom.net>, [+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
<dpil...@hellas.org> wrote:
>And I'm sure your state loves it when they take 50% of
>it away from you.
i pay a bit over 50% tax, yes. military strength cost, building everything in
a few decades instead of centuries cost, absorbing milions of jewish
immigrants, mostly refugees, although we don't call them that, it all cost.
and as you see most of it is paid by the israeli tax payer, not the american
tax payer. and thanks again for the support.
>What jewish population? The fact is that jewish units in the British
>military saw LIMITED combat (most didn't even hold combat positions). And
>you are refering to the quite LIMITED Jewish population of pre-war
>Palestine.
oh no mister P. even you can't change facts. the jewish population in the
(then) british mandate of ""palestine"" , about half a milion total, many of
them new immigrants. this population volunteered many thousands to fight in
all ranks and units of the british armed forces. they were in every job from a
truck driver to fighter pilot. most of the young men and many women wore
british uniform for 5 years. most of them served in ordinary british units,
but in addition the british government finally overcame its political
hesitation and founded an infanty brigade of israeli recruits. this brigade
had its fair share of combat, mainly in italy, vs. german forces. there was
nothing "limited" in what those soldiers did. the best proof for that is that
those thousands of veterans, from all units of the british army navy and air
force, were the skelleton of the IDF three years later. you thought for a
moment that we started such a victorious army from scratch in 1948 ? we had
thousands of experienced soldiers who got full british training and had combat
experience vs. the germans. and the germans were GOOD in combat.
as for the size of the population, yes, our "representation" in the british
forces was quite significant relative to our small number.
btw, you said "jewish units" while there was exactly one. you obviously don't
know much about this.
>Again... few supported Hitler, and few again (always "misled") the
>Soviets.
oh, no. i said THREE MEN supported Hitler, i can name names.
>In any case, you seem to now accept the fact that Jews took part
>in the murder of other Jews (something you claimed had not happened in
>millennia).
???
those 3 jews, all they did was to meet a german diplomat and offer cooperation
in evacuating jews from nazi occupied europe. they did'nt know about the
holocaust at the time. you can be sure of that. no one did then. it just
started.
>What is "several times"? Get real already... the Selucid Empire was *A*
>Hellenic Empire (a falling one), not *THE* Hellenic Empire (or
>Alexander's Empire).
hey, can't you admit the simple fact that a small rebelling force of jews
defeated several forces of one of the two hellenic empires of the time, and
that the defeated forces were larger and far better equipped (phalanx) then
that force.
history is full of examples of a strong force which did the mistake of
fighting in conditions in which they could not use their full potential and so
they were defeated. so one, or better several, such examples were the battles
in which jewish rebels defeated hellenic phalanx by choosing the right place
and means to defeat them. the israeli commander was just a better tactician
who knew his homeland terrain much better then those forces which came from
far.
>And again, what exactly did you achieve with that
>short lived victory against a falling empire, that you had to "celebrate"
i told you already. many decades of independence, much more than what he have
so far since 1948.
>Looking at the NUMBER OF YEARS that region has been in Hellenic..
you just admitted that the hellenic empire was actually a hellenic military
regime of a greek ruling minority ( you used the word "administration" )
ruling over many various non-greek populations. you had no claim whatsoever.
you were invaders in the entire region and you were kicked out by those
populations when they rebelled ( you used the term "falling empire" ).
>Not that Hellas has any claims to your desert (yet)
yet, eh ? you're absolutely insane. you must have wet dreams at night about
greek soldiers marching through turkey syria and israel and rebuild the
hellenic empire. Moussoliny had similar dreams you know....
and i told you it's only half desert. the other half is the land of "milk and
honey" just as described in the bible.
>Hellenic culture and language existed and was spoken in Palestine for
>THOUSANDS of years
oh really? and where did you get that ? israel is NOT cyprus.
>The same could be said about Alexandria/northen Egypt. But due to the
>racist practices of the Israelis, that number has been reduced.
oh? I thought it were the arabs who took the city and burned the great
library.
>God has no nationality,
absolutely true. but jesus of nazereth was a jewish guy, until he was put to
death by crusifiction by roman martial law. you just can't escape that FACT.
and you hate that.
>But that is not what they teach you in your religion, right?
actually when we learn about jewish religion at school they don't teach us
about christianity. after all our religion was formed a long long time before
jesus (and HE was a jew), or mohammed. we learn about the other two religions
in history lessons.
>Tell me of *ONE* *ISRAELI* technological achievement (by an Israeli
>private or government company/institution). And please don't mention MMX
>and Intel... we've discussed this already.
ok, a few weeks ago, to my total surprise too, an unexpected (for me at least
) breakthrough was made by three professors in the technion university in
haifa. they have managed to "glue" a conductive "mask" (layer) on top of
artificial DNA. this is the first practical breakthrough to the so far
theoretical "biological computer" .
it means that circuits, 250 times smaller and faster than now, would become
reality much sooner than any of us ever thought possible if asked a month ago.
those were three israeli professors who used small local funding.
happy ?
i could add many achievements in solar energy, mathematics, computer theory,
software, electronics, biotechnology, genetics, agriculture, biology, nuclear
sciences ( the laser based uranium enrichment process. and i leave it to you
to guess why the hell did anyone in israel even research that in the 1960s
<smile> ), medical electronics ( CT, NMR, and other "magical" medical scanning
machines ), and these are just a series of scientific and technological fields
which come to mind just like that, and without mentioning (1) microelectronics
( and the MMX is just one of many examples, most of them with no american
ownership or anything you can use to reject it. just one: 1/4 of japan's
cellular phone production is based on ISRAELI chips made by DSPC, a private
israeli company ), AND (2) military technology. you do know that the US is
buying some military smart gadgets from israel. check those gulf war tapes
which proudly show the mini-rpvs used by the USS Missouri for targeting, it's
an israeli product based on israeli idea now copied globally. and check which
stand-off missile did the USAF buy for its B-52 a few years ago coz it was
simply better than any paraller american model. the israeli "popeye" .
and there are many exmaples in this field too.
and i can mention the invention of the reactive armor and kinetic penetration
"arrow" tank gun rounds, both globally copied now, but invented here.
Jesus being a jew is one thing you just can't escape Mr. P.
Israel's high scientific and technological level in MANY fields is another.
your acceptance or rejection of those two FACTS is totally irrelevant.
they remain... FACTS.
>Are you an American, or live in the US?
I was born in israel and lived here all my life. that's my home. unlike your
10 years in a US, i spent 45 DAYS in the US as a tourist. huge and beautiful
country. why ?
>Simply because I am currently and temporarily outside of Hellas
10 years. soon you'll be more american than greek.you'll eventually live all
your life in america, your fanatic greek nationalism will remain a pathetic
harmless hobby.
>: 1. we have a navy, not a big one, but a VERY effective one.
>How is it "effective". What EQUIPMENT does it use, what kind of TRAINING
>does it have, etc.? Not only do Israelis lack any "history" at sea (other
>than shipping slaves to America - still no "tradition" compared to the
>Hellenic or British ones), they also lack any training/exercises similar
>to those conducted by NATO (and please don't mention that pathetic SAR
>exercise with the USN and Turkey).
a series of questions again. ok, i'm always glad to answer:
1.the israeli navy has proven its effectiveness in the most decisive way
possible. it defeated both the egyptian and syrian navies in combat.
in the last war in 1973 many arab warships were sunk at sea by ours.
the navy did it all by itself, it did not need air force support.
no israeli ship was even hit in those sea battles.
2. the equipment used by the israeli navy is partly home made and partly
american. most electronics is israeli, weapons are part american part israeli.
the vessels are of israeli design ( except subs ). some vessels are buitt
abroad, only for economical reasons, all types were built in israel in the
past whenever it was cheaper.
3.the training is local of course, based on 50 years of combat and other
experience. in addition to training at sea, the navy uses advanced simulators
tailor-made for it by ELBIT, a world famous local computer-electronics corp.
there is some mutual enrichment with the US navy too.
4.our naval history is short, but extensive, and the victory at salamis 2500
years ago is irrelevant to the ability of the greek navy to win a modern
battle at sea today, with missiles and electronics instead of paddles and
rams.
the first battle in which ships shot missiles at each other was in 1973 and
the israeli navy, which was the first in the world to develop what is now
called ( if i'm not mistaken ) fast attack craft ( the modern missile boat )
was the winner, with no losses or even hits to our vessels.
so in terms of missile based modern naval combat our history is relevant.
5.ok, so some jews were in the slave trade business in the far past. so what?
so did your ancestors ( athens was a "democracy" of men who owned slaves )
anyway those traders were not more in the shipping business than INTEL is.
6.i would never underestimate the british or US navies, but unlike their
continuous imressive history and immense experience in modern times, i don't
recall any parallel with the greek navy.
7.there were trainings at sea between the US 6th fleet and the israeli navy.
and i'm not talking about search and rescue training.
8.what you call pathetic training ( and we all noticed you unbelievable
misundertsanding in military matters before, including navy stuff )
someone else will call successful and enriching .
>I would imagine that your Gabriels are "superior" to the Exocet
yes, no doubt, but i would not argue about comparisons vs the american
Harpoon.
>is using, or that the IDF F-16's/F-15's would "easily" get past Hellenic
>ships "sporting" Standard and SeaSparrow missiles (or the countless
>islands with SAM installations)!
1. you don't have to pass over the greek islands to get to pireus
2. i can easily ask you to check what happenned to the mighty syrian air
defence array in east lebanon during one afternoon in 1982.
3. we can first sink those ships and then get to pireus.
i remind you ( and other readers ) that this is a hypothetical debate bacause
the greek-israeli war is only real in your insane fanatic mind, Mr. P.
>But hey... keep that chip on your shoulder. You guys are the "best". :)
i will only say this. the IAF was and is considered formidable and highly
effective by any other airforce or aviation expert in the world. for very good
reasons. you're not such an expert as you so "well" demostrated. your opinion
is irrelevant. besides, the IAF is not counting on the past, it makes great
efforts, all the time, to solve new problems and maintain its level.
btw, the number of modern jet fighter air combat victories scored by the IAF
is many times greater than that of any other airforce in the world. you must
consider this as a factor. just as i and military historians, mention the
factor of intensive collective experience of the british navy which kept it
strong for such a long time not only for its numbers but also for the skill of
the crews, based on that learned experience. but you know nothing about these
things anyway.
>Which country (given the choice to buy the more expensive Western
>missiles), would choose Israeli missiles? None.
many, the US itself is one <smile> it buys israeli precision stand-off ground
attack missiles for the B-52 simply because they are better than equivalent US
missiles.
>Israel has chosen to ally itself with Turkey. Now,
>if a war break out between Hellas and Turkey, do you find it that
>extremely remote for an "exchange" between Hellas and Israel.
yes, such an "exchange" will not happen, for the simple reason that israel has
no military alliance with turkey, only agreements for peacetime military and
military-industrial cooperation.
israel will not send troops to die in someone else's war. we just wo'nt.
greece is a very friendly nation to israel and i'm sorry that greece and
turkey are not friendly with each other. there's no chance whatsoever that any
israeli force will fight the greeks alongside turkey. period. it's just you
who wants it.
the strategic interests of turkey and israel in this cooperation is only
related to their common middle-east interests and pure economical interests.
the scope of israeli military interests is only in the middle east. the IDF
has no interest in any european country because none of them pose any threat
to israel, and vice versa. cyprus included.
so you can relax and limit your military interest in israel to military
history. ( and you lost the war then. we just kicked you out ).
>And in any case, one must plan for any remote possibility.
it is not even a remote possibility, at least not greater than the possibility
of a US-UK war in the future.
>: i'm personally in favor of the greek side vs. turkey )
>What is this, a football game that you can take sides in?? Get real, you
>Zionist bigot.
look, regardless of your personal fanatism, i happen to be on your side in the
greek-turkey conflict. if that's not ok with you, fine. i don't need your
permission. i can have an opinion about this just like you have an opinion
about the arab-israeli conflict. what an idiot.
>Zionists are making claims against Hellas
never heard of any. what are you talking about?
i can't think of any claim by a "zionist", as you call us, against greece,
except perhaps tourist complaints. i really do recall now that when i was in
corfu (kerkyra) there were no hot water in the first day in the room.
but that's really an exception. i very much enjoyed my tour in greece last
year and can't find a reason to complain of anything else. i even plan to go
there again sometime. i'll probably be back in greece before you do.
>Look at the tattoo. How many NUMBERS/DIGITS does it have? Does it have 4
>or 5, or does it *7*
6 or 7, i'm not sure, go to a holocaust web site and look in the pictures
yourself. many were murdered before they got to the camps. the numbers were (
of i'm not mistaken ) used only in the camps, and only those who were
prisoners in the camps got them. most incoming victims got straight to the gas
chamber and got no numbers. and they were the majority.
>million prisoners)? And if the Nazis were planning on murdering the Jews
>in a planned genocide, why did they bother castrating people? Did you ever
>stop to think about these things prior to accepting them at face value?
the explanation is simple. the nazi "theory" expressed in hitler's book talked
about a "final solution" to the "jewish problem", hitler however typically
did'nt bother himself with the technical details in such matters. so when
hitler finally conquered europe and things reached the practical level, nazi
administration considered several options of how to do it. various methods of
sterilization of men and women were experimented ( the nazis wanted to exploit
the jewish work force as slaves before they're all dead ), and so were various
methods of killing. eventually the process of mass murder by gas and then mass
burning of the dead bodies was selected as the most efficient method. not all
prisoners were immediately murdered in the death camps.
the fittest prisoners were used as slaves in the camp itself and in nearby
ammunition factories, but they were severely starved so they were exploited
until they were too weak and were sent to death, to be replaced by "fresh"
slaves and so on.
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
Uri Noy
In article <354b26c6...@news.tminet.com>, jta...@tminet.com (Tarver
>Then again, you could read
>about most of this in Isaiah if you don't have the New Testament.
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
Tarver Engineering
Do you suppose he was a Prophet? We Christians believe Jesus is the
one Issiah refered to.
John
Arie Kazachin
In message <351bc1c1...@news.tminet.com> - jta...@tminet.com (Tarver
Engineering) writes:
>
[snip]
>
>Each time Congress forgives a loan to Israel it is published in the
>WSJ. There is additionally the $3 billion gift each year that is Camp
>David. the US does receive significant return on this investment, but
>the money is spent for socialist causes in Israel and will never be
>paid back. Israel would have to end socialism and become a producing
>Nation for this to ever happen.
For the last 11 years that the US aid stabilized on $3 billion it consists
of $1.2 billion civilian aid and $1.8 billion military aid. Military
aid is CONDITIONED by weapons (and other military equipment) purchase in US,
from F-16C/D and F-15I all the way down to such a simple things as uniforms
(that's one of the reasons Israely textile manufacturers go out of business
one after the other during the last years). So the clain that "$3 billion"
are spent on "socialist causes in Israel" should be trimmed down to $1.2
billion and maybe even lower - I remember reading an article 5-10 years
ago about US aid to Israel and what Israel have to purchase in US in return
and it showed that there was no "net cash flow" to Israel: the total of
what Israel had to purchace in US was equal to the aid. So, maybe that's
why for so many years different US administrations agree on US aid to
Israel:
1) They save casualties and military expences, for example, by
fighting non-nuclearly armed Saddam.
2) They create lots of jobs in US military industry and those dependant
on it.
As for creation of jobs in US - although I can't know the process
of decision making in various US weapons producing companies with regard
to sales to Israel and to the rest of the world, but I think the
$1.8 billions worth of weapons supplyed to Israel create in US
much higher number of jobs than required to carry out the Israely
orders only. Let's take F-16 as example: it's produced in large
numbers and sold all over the world. Why so many states decided
to purchase F-16 and not anything else? Because they knew what it
can do: Israel was the first to "battle-prove" this plane.
The raid on Osirak was the first ever ground attack by F-16
(also beyound theoretical range calculated by G.D. designers) and few
weeks before that, Israely F-16 got world first A-A kill by F-16.
In a same way, world first A-A kill by F-15 was also done by Israel,
for which I'm sure McDonel Douglas management was very gratefull (and
even more in 1983, when they were able to brag to their customers:
"our product can even land with slightly more than one wing"). :-)
When Israel keeps such a long history of "world first battle proving"
various weapons (Mirage too, if we'll go farther back), many states
seem to behave something like "if Israel bought it - it's good, we'll
buy it too". Again using F-16 as an example: I'm sure that when G.D.
(then) spent huge sums developing various modifications of F-16,
they intended each model to be sold in as many numbers as possible.
They invested in R&D of F-16A/B and got it back: Israel bought
some and many more were sold to other states.
They invested in R&D of F-16C/D and got it back: Israel bought
some and many more were sold to other states.
They invested in R&D of F-16XL. Israel decided not to buy it
(payload of 11 tons instead of 7 is nice, but we need versatility).
How many F-16XL were sold? I know that NASA uses few as testbeds
(like laminar supersonic flow, etc.) but I don't think the sums
spent on R&D of XL model were returned from its sales.
To summarize: US aid to Israel allows more US citizen to stay
1) alive
and/or
2) with a job
compared with situation without this aid.
As for the claim that Israel is not a producing nation: Israel's
balance of payments is not something like "export - 0, import - X".
Israel produces a lot but unfortunately imports more. Here's the
list of recent years taken from the Israely central statistical beurau
web page:
Exp. Imp. Balance.
1991 18.5 23.8 -5.3
1992 20.8 26.4 -5.6
1993 22.0 28.4 -6.4
1994 24.9 32.9 -8.0
1995 28.8 39.5 -10.7
1996 30.5 42.0 -11.5
1997 32.0 41.8 -9.8
There is a blessed change in 1997
>
>In regards to Syria demanding Israel not withdraw from Lebanon; maybe
>they should give you a gift?
>
>John
>
******************************************************************************
* Arie Kazachin, Israel, e-mail: ariek3.141592...@ibm.net *
******************************************************************************
NOTE: before replying, leave only letters in my userID. Sorry, SPAM trap.
Tarver Engineering
On 1 Apr 1998 02:22:20 GMT, ariek3.141592...@ibm.net (Arie
Kazachin) wrote:
>In message <351bc1c1...@news.tminet.com> - jta...@tminet.com (Tarver
>Engineering) writes:
>>Each time Congress forgives a loan to Israel it is published in the
>>WSJ. There is additionally the $3 billion gift each year that is Camp
>>David. the US does receive significant return on this investment, but
>>the money is spent for socialist causes in Israel and will never be
>>paid back. Israel would have to end socialism and become a producing
>>Nation for this to ever happen.
>For the last 11 years that the US aid stabilized on $3 billion it consists
>of $1.2 billion civilian aid and $1.8 billion military aid.
Plus other aid not directly from Camp David.
,snip>
>To summarize: US aid to Israel allows more US citizen to stay
>
>1) alive
We do not have to defend Israel.
>and/or
>
>2) with a job
The use of this money for aid to Israel is a job loser for the United
States.
>compared with situation without this aid.
>As for the claim that Israel is not a producing nation: Israel's
>balance of payments is not something like "export - 0, import - X".
>Israel produces a lot but unfortunately imports more. Here's the
>list of recent years taken from the Israely central statistical beurau
>web page:
Israel imports US cash and exports very little.
John
ol...@umr.edu
In article <6fp8ha$hb4$1...@news.ibm.net.il>,
uri...@ibm.net (Uri Noy) wrote:
> Er, dave, let's not lower ourselves to the level of Mr. P. the cypriots,
> most of them of greek culture, suffered a lot from the turkish invasion.
> the sad fact that Mr. P. in on their side is irrelevant to their moral
> claim.
>
Mr. Noy could you please elaborate on the subject of Greek Cypriot
suffering at the hands of the Turkish Army. I am interested to see if you have
any evidence to back this claim or if you are beginnig to subscribe to Mr.
Pilarinos's mindless psychobabble. Talking about the moral claims of Greek
Cypriots while disregarding those of the Palestinians sounds pretty
hypocritical coming from your neck of the woods, eh Mr. Noy!
Ilhan Olcay
> Uri Noy
> ISRAEL
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
[+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
ol...@umr.edu wrote:
:> Er, dave, let's not lower ourselves to the level of Mr. P. the cypriots,
:> most of them of greek culture, suffered a lot from the turkish invasion.
:> the sad fact that Mr. P. in on their side is irrelevant to their moral
:> claim.
:
: Mr. Noy could you please elaborate on the subject of Greek Cypriot
: suffering at the hands of the Turkish Army. I am interested to see if you have
Let us see, other than the 200,000 refugees ethnically cleansed from the
occupied territories, we have over 1,600 still listed as missing, over 500
"trapped" in the "north", and of course, the countless UN resolutions,
Amnesty International, Helsinki Watch, etc. reports that have documented
this barbarity.
: any evidence to back this claim or if you are beginnig to subscribe to Mr.
: Pilarinos's mindless psychobabble. Talking about the moral claims of Greek
Yes, Mr.Noy, much like EVERY SINGLE NATION on the face of this planet
(including ALL international organizations) has "subscribed to (my)..
psychobabble" in condemning the invasion and recognizing Turkish
barbarism.
: Cypriots while disregarding those of the Palestinians sounds pretty
: hypocritical coming from your neck of the woods, eh Mr. Noy!
Aren't you the one that in this newsgroup claimed that over 130,000 PKK
freedom fighters (you didn't even mention civilians) were murdered by
Turkish forces in the past 13 years (well, you claimed 65,000 for the past
6 years)? Quite a statistic for those wishing to travel to Turkey perhaps.
But, I just love the fact that neither nation (Israel nor Turkey) have any
moral concerns about what their "ally" is doing. If you Mr.Noy object
to Turkish policies in Cyprus, Kurdistan, and/or Aegean, how can you
defend the agreement with Turkey? And you Mr.Olcay, if you have such a
"moral" objection to the treatment of the Arab element in Palestine/Israel
(which is MUCH better than the treatment of the Arabs in Alexandretta),
why have you supported this agreement (with exuberance) in the past (and
even today)?
I believe that any reader can clearly see the hypocracy in both of your
positions.
: Ilhan Olcay
--
..-------[+=]----------[ Dionysios Pilarinos ]----------[+=]-------.
| 'Halls of justice painted green, money talking...' - Metallica! |
` [ dpil...@hellas.org ] [ www.hellas.org ] '
Uri Noy
In article <6fk3ds$4...@news9.noc.netcom.net>, Vasilios Pilarinos
<vpil...@hellas.org> wrote:
[snip nonsense]
>We have a saying in
>Greek .. sto spiti tou kremasmenou den milane gia shoini .. in the house
>of the hanged man they don't talk about rope. Think about that for a sec.
Talking of ropes, here's a saying for you :
Give an idiot enough rope and he'll eventually hang himself.
[snip more nonsense like:]
>BTW -- in case you missed the previous post, GO FUCK YOURSELF.
I don't think i should add any comment regarding the character of the Younger
Mr. P. he demonstrated it much faster the the older Mr. P did.
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
Uri Noy
In article <351E4E3D...@aus.net>, Carlo Kopp <Carlo.Ko...@aus.net>
wrote:
>Moreover, with dual use technology a
>regime can legitimately purchase equipment, and then use it for the
>wrong purposes.
As usual, the problem is never the gun but the person which holds it.
Japan can make itself a nuclear power in a matter of VERY short time, all it
takes is a decision to do it. but they judt don't.
Saddam on the other hand...
>be made for ops like the Osirak raid, since it both discourages the
>misbehaving regime, and importantly focusses public attention on them,
>which is highly desirable.
You're completely off-track here. the ONLY reason israel bombed the osirak
reactor was that iraq was going to become a nuclear power in a matter of
months, and the attack pushed them years back. 10 years to be exact, as we
found out after the gulf war. there was absolutely no question of discouraging
or public opinion. it was a matter of top level national security. a strategic
danger. period.
>I suspect that we in the West as a community extend to such regimes the
>benefit of the doubt in judgement, when the evidence unambiguously
>indicates otherwise.
The west judge those dictators in its own scale, failing to realize that the
scale just don't fit the case. or to quote a sentence from a history book i'm
reading: "the main problem with the ( british pre-ww2 ) appeasement policy,
was that Hitler was simply NOT appeaseable"
>The problem with nasties and lunatics is that leaving them alone will
>not change their nasty behaviour.
in the worse cases, leaving them alone let's them grow stronger and become a
worse problem.
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
Kay Pennington
Been there many times - it is NOT mainly AMERICAN Jews - NOT - the
American Jew is a joke to the Israelie and quite uncomfortable in Israel
! And that's the living truth.
The NATIVE Palestinian or Israelie is from the SAME EXACT oriental TRIBE
- known as Bedouins - they had a falling out back in Abraham's time -
but they ARE THE SAME race - etc.
The real truth - is that ALL of the older - before 1948 - JEW and ARAB,
living in Israel - have a high regard for one another and tolerance of
the religions.
It's the YOUNGER Imports - ON BOTH SIDES - Jew and Arab - that are the
rebel rousers.
I have been there many times - I stay in the WEST BANK - only - have
friends among the Christians, Armenians, Palestinians and Jews.
There is good and bad in everything - I don't like us being involved. I
think it was unfair of "consciences being relieved" by pulling out in
1948 - Let's face it - the English and Americans always stick their nose
in where it doesn't belong - WE Fouled it UP -
This is all "in my opinion" - I really came here to find a missile
Kay +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Carlo Kopp
Uri Noy wrote:
>
> In article <351E4E3D...@aus.net>, Carlo Kopp <Carlo.Ko...@aus.net>
> wrote:
> >Moreover, with dual use technology a
> >regime can legitimately purchase equipment, and then use it for the
> >wrong purposes.
> As usual, the problem is never the gun but the person which holds it.
> Japan can make itself a nuclear power in a matter of VERY short time, all it
> takes is a decision to do it. but they judt don't.
> Saddam on the other hand...
It all boils down to ambitions. The Japanese changed their view on
conquest after WW since the price they paid was much greater than the
gains they had made, and lost. So they changed their game plan for
bettering themselves and focussed on economic gains.
The problem with types like Saddam is that they think that conquest of
neighbours, or coercion through force/terrorism is a better route to go.
This is a problem that will not go away soon.
>
> >be made for ops like the Osirak raid, since it both discourages the
> >misbehaving regime, and importantly focusses public attention on them,
> >which is highly desirable.
> You're completely off-track here. the ONLY reason israel bombed the osirak
> reactor was that iraq was going to become a nuclear power in a matter of
> months, and the attack pushed them years back. 10 years to be exact, as we
> found out after the gulf war. there was absolutely no question of discouraging
> or public opinion. it was a matter of top level national security. a strategic
> danger. period.
Are we talking here about Israel's motives or the motives of the Western
Alliance should they decide to pre-emptively attack a rogue nation's WMD
sites ? It seems that you are talking about one and I the other.
>
> >I suspect that we in the West as a community extend to such regimes the
> >benefit of the doubt in judgement, when the evidence unambiguously
> >indicates otherwise.
> The west judge those dictators in its own scale, failing to realize that the
> scale just don't fit the case. or to quote a sentence from a history book i'm
> reading: "the main problem with the ( british pre-ww2 ) appeasement policy,
> was that Hitler was simply NOT appeaseable"
The problem with anybody who is building a militaristic empire is that
their primary agenda will be conquest. Therefore peaceful persuasion is
a waste of time.
>
> >The problem with nasties and lunatics is that leaving them alone will
> >not change their nasty behaviour.
> in the worse cases, leaving them alone let's them grow stronger and become a
> worse problem.
>
The old saying about evil prospering where good men do nothing about it
...
Cheers,
Carlo
David Lednicer
Tarver Engineering wrote:
> Israel imports US cash and exports very little.
I think you are sadly mistaken. You might want to ask Intel where some
of the chips in your computer (if you are using a PC) are made. There
is a real big Intel plant next to the highway from Tel Aviv to Haifa.
Similarly, a lot of the Oranges and cut flowers for sale in Europe come
from Israel. Ditto for high precision instruments, business jets and
software. In fact, one of the pieces of software my employer sells (and
I use in my daily work) is co-developed with Israel Aircraft Industries.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
David Lednicer | "Applied Computational Fluid Dynamics"
Analytical Methods, Inc. | email: da...@amiwest.com
2133 152nd Ave NE | tel: (206) 643-9090
Redmond, WA 98052 USA | fax: (206) 746-1299
Tarver Engineering
On Fri, 03 Apr 1998 13:57:49 -0800, David Lednicer <da...@amiwest.com>
wrote:
>Tarver Engineering wrote:
>> Israel imports US cash and exports very little.
>
> I think you are sadly mistaken. You might want to ask Intel where some
>of the chips in your computer (if you are using a PC) are made.
Not in my computer.
> There
>is a real big Intel plant next to the highway from Tel Aviv to Haifa.
Intel is an American Company taking advantage of tax credits to build
a plant in Israel; smae as HP in Puerto Rico.
>Similarly, a lot of the Oranges and cut flowers for sale in Europe come
>from Israel. Ditto for high precision instruments, business jets and
>software.
Jew canoes, and software.
> In fact, one of the pieces of software my employer sells (and
>I use in my daily work) is co-developed with Israel Aircraft Industries.
Thank Camp David for your job as well then.
John
Uri Noy
In article <6fo5kf$4...@news9.noc.netcom.net>, Vasilios Pilarinos
<vpil...@hellas.org> wrote:
>Why don't you come and suck my Greek dick,
Offering homosexual relationship in public? gee, Mr. P. #2, homosexuality and
nationalism never went hand in hand, it's bad for your macho image.
( his replay to that will be obvious, but i'm straight )
>Yeah yeah, if the US didn't save your butts each and every time
when was that?, except perhaps in the first week of oct 1973 when the support
air convoys came only after we had to threaten Mr. Nixon with the use of
nuclear wapons and even then our warriors in the front stopped the invaders
before the first C-5 landed here.
or perhaps you think of the gulf war in which we did the US a HUGE favor by
not respnding to scud attacks which killed our civilians, when the US was only
doing the right thing in return and sent here a few "patriot" SAM batteries (
which did'nt stop the scuds but were good for civil moral ) and made an effort
to hunt those scuds in west iraq.
>Israeli's
>would be half way to the US by now after having been driven out of the
>land by the rightful owners.
first we have a very bad experience with getting help or shelter from others,
even friends, in times of desperate weakness. the US didnt receive jews who
fled nazi germany, and so did other countries. experience shows that we get
help only when we can do without it, even if harder.
so we really have no option but surviving here in israel. and as for the
"drivven out" part, you can keep wishing, it wo'nt happen. israel is here to
stay AND we are the rightful owners, on most of the land.
>And btw-- keep sending your money to Israel. That's all they really want
>from you.
actually there's a fresh agreement that we would stop getting civil aid, and
it was even our initiative.
The last thing they want is your American kind "polluting" their
>orthodox faith with your reformist and conservative non(according to
>them)-jewry.
I, and most israelis, would like american jews to come here and join us.
jewish immigration has always just made us stronger.
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
Uri Noy
In article <6fockp$6...@news9.noc.netcom.net>, [+=] Dionysios Pilarinos
<dpil...@hellas.org> wrote:
>political rallies/speaches, "new" documents, "new" findings,
there's nothing mysterious about finding new stuff after all those decades.
most of it comes from what was the communist block in east europe and only now
becomes available. the german people also finds "new" things about itself in
the mountains of documents found in the STAZI archives.
>: Israel is doing business from a position of superiority and strength
>: that the Jews never had in the past.
>What superiority?
military-industrial-scientific.
>If not for the US, you wouldn't even exist.
until the mid sixties we only got help US jews, not the USA. and those were
the harder early years of israel.
>And both your economy and military (even compared to your neighbors) leaves
>MUCH to be desired.
desired.. well we do have a vision peace and prosperity in our own land.
and actually this aim looks MUCH closer than ever. and whenever we question
ourselves, looking back at our great achievements in the past 50 years
certainly enhances our self-confidence.
as for comparison with our neighbours, please Mr. P. I BEG YOU to check any of
those parameters: GNP, production per capita, income per capita, education,
tech. level, industrial level, or ANY other economical or military parameter.
please check the real figures, not those you like to imagine, and compare.
and i even want you to quote those figures here after you read them yourself.
to remove any doubt any other reader might have.
>destroyed 100 planes in 4 hours .. with no loses"
if you refer to 1967, the IAF destroyed 450 aircraft in 3 hours. actually
wiped out enemy airforces. we had losses on our side. 5 to 10 aircraft.
I just thought we better continue the debate baesd on the correct figures.
In air-to-air dogfights results were about 1:50 in the 70s, and since 1982 the
ratio is not measurable, since we shot down (1982) about 100 syrian jets in
dogfights and lost none.
>Yeah.. and according to your own "figures", you lost "6 million"
those were nazi figures too. and the germans are notorious for their precision
with anything about numbers.
>without any evidence of inflicting loses against the Nazis (and this was
1942-45).
In the warsaw ghetto uprising, ( since i don't have the specific info
documented at home, i scanned the web. the first source i found was the
university of south florida with a link to the official report of nazi general
Stroop after his forces finally terminated (literally) jewish resistance, i
hope you will not dismiss any of those sources as zionist etc. )
[START QUOTE]
Resistance was very hazardous, and not only to those engaged in it. There was
a great risk of immediate mass retaliation by the Nazis to the larger Jewish
population after an insurrection.
As the war continued and conditions for Jews throughout Europe worsened,
resistance intensified. With a growing awareness of the "Final Solution,"
resistance turned to forms of guerrilla warfare and organized armed ghetto and
camp uprisings. It was clear that the insurgents did not have a real chance to
stop the Germans, but their efforts were an affirmation of the Jewish
dermination to survive.
( the web page details many incidents of armed and unarmed violent active
resistance )
April 19, 1943 marked the beginning of an armed revolt by a
courageous and determined group of Warsaw ghetto dwellers. The
Jewish Fighter Organization (ZOB) led the insurgency and battled
for a month, using weapons smuggled into the ghetto. The Nazis
responded by bringing in tanks and machine guns, burning blocks of
buildings, destroying the ghetto, and ultimately killing many of the
last 60,000 Jewish ghetto residents. The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising
was the largest civilian armed revolt in occupied Europe.
[END QUOTES]
points to notice :
1. it took the mighty nazi forces a whole month, using mass forces including
tanks, to overcome a small resistance group of civilians which were armed
mostly with what they took from their much better equipped dead enemies.
2. the last quoted sentence is self-speaking. read it again.
3. these were all jewish civilians with no military experience, who knew they
were sentenced to death, but wanted to die fighting, and revenge the mass
death of their relatives by the nazis
quotes from the report of nazi general Stroop :
"The resistance put up by the Jews and bandits could be broken only by
relentlessly using all our forces and energy by day and night."
"I therefore decided to destroy the entire Jewish residential area by setting
every block on fire,"
btw, before i went to the web, i easily found some other WW2 related numbers
you might be intereseted in. following are quotes from "A History of the
modern world, from 1917 to the 1990s" by Paul Johnson. a famous british
researcher. one of the best history books i've read.
about he holocaust:
[START QUOTES]
between june 22 1941 ( start of the nazi attack at the soviets ) and the end
of 1941, 500,000 soviet jews were murdered, mainly by gunfire.
.
Adolf Eichmann (a senior SS official) said that "the purposeof the final
solutuion operation was the planned biological extermination of the jewish
race" preparations lasted until april 1942.
experiments to determine the mopst efficient killing method were conducted
since june 1941.
in august 1941, a "successful" experiment was done in auschwitz, killing 500
soviet POWs by gas.the commnader of auschwitz, Hess, reported that "at last we
found a satisfactory way to do it" . the S.S. bought a huge amount of gas from
AG Farben, the producer. mass murder by gas started in march 17 1942 in
Belzetz, with a daily "output" ( of this camp alone ) of 15,000 deaths. a
month later the Sobibor camp added 20,000 a day, Treblinka and Maidanek with
25,000 a day, and then Auschwitz, which the camp commander, Hess, proudly
called "the greatest instrument of all times for terminating people". the
murder is massively documented. in december 1941 there were 8,700,000 jews
under nazi rule, of those, at least 5,800,000 were murdered until january
1945, with the following distribution, by their origin:
austria 50,000 italy 7,680 estonia 2,000 belgium 28,900 USSR 1,100,000 germany
141,500 danmark 60 ( danish jews were shipped to sweden when Hitler invaded )
netherland/holland 100,000 hungary 569,000 yugoslavia 63,300 greece 67,000
latvia 71,500 poland 3,000,000 finland 7 czechoslovakia 78,150 france 77,320
In auschwitz, where over 2 milions were murdered, in was conducted as a large
industrial operation. german companies competed for contracts for "processing
units" which were required for "output of eliminating 2,000 dead bodies every
12 hours" the 5 crematoriums were supplied by Toft and Co. in Erfurt., the gas
chambers were designed ( according to detailed requirements ) by German
Ordnance Ltd. actually for saving expenses, usually a reduced amount of the
expensive gas was used so that some of the victims only temporarily lost
consciousness and were later burned alive.
Hitler angrily rejected complaints of the german army which complained that
badly needed supplies to the eastern front are delyed because of the transfer,
by rail, of milions from all over europe to the death camps.
Himler (SS chief) wanted to slow down the murder because the S.S. budget
benefited from the payments for supply of slave workers received from Siemens,
Farben, Krupp, RheinMetal, Messerschmidt and other companies.
Actually Auschwitz was designed as a combination of death camp and a factory
based on slave work of prisoners which worked as long as they could and were
then murdered. it was a joint design of the S.S. and the AG Farben corp.
Auchwittz produced synthetic rubber and synthetic oil, the Farben factory
management complained that there was too much whipping of the prisoners in the
factory premises and demanded that it will be limited to the camp area, not
the production sites.
the chief of the slave-work organization, Fritz Zaukel, said "we have to
ensure maximum exploitation of the prisoners with the absolute minimum
expenditure", so the prisoners which were kept alive instead of being
immediately murdered at arrival, were literally worked to death.
Farben insperctors decided daily which worker was'nt fit anymore and should be
sent to death, and records were kept. workers weight loss was in average 3-4
kg a week. Farben and the S.S. turned humans into "material". they were worked
while being starved until they could work no more, then they were murdered,
and then "recycled", the gold from their teeth was sent to the ReichsBank, the
hair was used for matrasses, and their body oil was used for soap.
the last belongings of the arriving prisoners were also recorded: for example,
in the six weeks between 1.12.44 and 15.1.45 , the clothes worn by 222,269
men, 192,652 women, and 99,922 children, were "confiscated" and sent to
germany. records state that the factory was after all an economical failure.
. the jews of hungary were murdered at a rate of 12,000 a day..
.. in may 29 1944, Hitler told the Gauleiters that "before the end of the
year, all jews will be dead".
[END QUOTES]
and Mr. P. this is only one source, and the camps still exist, as museums, the
figures of the genocide, so precisely recorded by the murderers, are generally
not arguable. regardless of your personal opinion.
in another matter, i said that ending WW2 by dropping the bomb saved lives.
you disagreed. here are some quotes from the same book
[START QUOTES]
in 27 july 1943, the RAF bombardment of hamburg heated the city's atmosphere
to 800-1000 degrees, causing huge fire storms, 214,350 of 414,500 residential
units were destroyed, 4,301 of 9,592 production sites in an area of 20 sq/km
were totally burned. 40,000 civilians were killed, 37% of the population.
the attack at Dresden burned 20 sq/km , killed 135,000 people.
thruout the pacific war, the japanese fought bravely to their end, but
technology and numbers of men and equipment allowed the americans to keep
casualty ratios at "colonial era" levels. in okinawa, 185,000 japanese were
killed. most of them have'nt seen an american soldier. between march and july
1945, virtually without effective resistance, american bombers dropped 100,000
tons of explosives over 66 japanese cities and wiped out 440,000 sq/km of
massively populated residential areas. in march 9 1945, 300 bombers attacked
tokyo, and destroyed 38 sq/km area, killing 83,000 and injuring 102,000 .
japanese records show that before the atomic bombs were dropped, 2,250,000
buildings were destroyed, leaving 9,000,000 unsheltered, killing 260,000,
injuring 412,000 civilians. the magnitude of the american bombardment
increased all the time, eventually reaching the near-nuclear threshold of
1,000 tons a day.
by july 1945, japanese cities were also shelled by the heavy artillery of US
navy Battleships.
The americans and british were already dropping all the explosives they could
at japan, at increasing rate. not dropping the bomb seemed not only
irrational, but also irresponsible, because unlike the conventional
bombardment, the nuclear bomb could shake the japanese determinism to keep
fighting to the end.
the japanese war plan for the final struggle to stop an american invasion of
japan included : 10,000 kamikaze aircraft, most of them modified from trainer
aircraft, not fighters, 350,000 infantry for beach fighting, 4,000,000
civilian workers of the miliraty industry, and a militia of 28,000,000
civilians. they were supposed to be armed with cannons, and bamboo spears,
bows, and arrows.
the japanese parliament passed the appropriate legislation to establish and
"equip" these forces. ally commnaders estimated they will suffer a milion
casualties if japan would be invaded and estimated, according to previous
experience, that 10,000,000 to 20,000,000 japanese will be killed too.
allied intention was therefore to break the japanese resistance before
invasion will become inevitable. in 1 aug. 1945, 6,600 tons were dropped by
820 bombers. four days later, 720,000 leaflets were spread over Hirosima,
warning that the city will be wiped out. they were ignored by the population.
the next day the uranium bomb was dropped over the city.
after ignoring inernational law for 20 years, the japanese government
protested for "the inconsideration of international law and cruelty of the US
government in hiroshima" , but did not consider surrender.
three days later, the plutonium bomb was dropped on nagasaki, and this might
have conviced the japanese that the americans have an inventory of bombs (
actually there were only two more bombs ready ) , a day later, the USSR, which
now had 1,600,000 soldiers in the manchurian border, declarecd war on japan.
the japanese annonced that they accept the principal of surrender, so nuclear
attacked were stopped, but the war continued, and in aug. 13 1945, 1,500 B-29
bombers bombarded Tokyo from sunrise to sunset. a day later the japanese
government discussed surrender, the minister of war and chiefs of army and
navy opposed, so admiral suzuki, the PM, asked the emperor to decide in the
disagreement of whether to surrender or not.
army officers attempted to invade the imperial palace and murder the emperor
before he records the surrender broadcast message to the japanese people. they
killed the commnader of the imperial palace guards and set fire in the PM
residence, but failed to prevent the broadcast. immediately after the imperial
speech was broadcast, the minister of defence and others commited suicide in
the imperial palace's main court.
there is no known record which can suggest that the japanese would have
surrendered without the use of the bomb. the increasing power of the
conventional bombardment was already at almost one kiloton a day even without
an invasion. the use of the nuclear bomb therefore saved the lives of many
ally troops and milions of japanese civilians.
[END QUOTES]
Mr. Pilarinos, you kept accusing me of not relying on facts and figures, so
now you have them in full detail. calm facts and figures ( i mean calm if you
ignore the horror expressed by those facts and figures ).
i could, and still can, quote from the same source about the arab israeli
conflict, but this post is long enough. upon demand i can quote this neutral
objective serious source about how the the arab-israeli conflict started, and
how it continued. i'll quote now just a single paragraph which i randomly
found about it :
[START QUOTE]
so the perception that israel was created by western imperialism is not only
wrong, it's the opposite of truth. in all western countries the defence and
foreign ministries and the big businesses were hostile to zionism. the french
supplied weapons only to annoy the british, which caused their "loss" or their
mandate in syria. the "Hagana" ( the main jewish para-military organizaion )
had 21,000 men, but it had no artillery, armor, or aircraft. it was communist
czechoslovakia which, following soviet dictation, allowed israel's survival,
by dedicating an airbase for flying weapons to Tel-Aviv.
actually everyone expected a jewish defeat. they faced an invation by 10,000
fully equipped soldiers of the egyptian army, 4,500 jordanian soldiers, 7,000
syrians, 3,000 iraqis, 3,000 lebanese, and the palestinians. this is why the
arabs rejected the UN resolution of partition which allocated only 14,250
sq/km for the jewish state, most of it in the negev desert.
the jews, by accepting the resolution which would have created a tiny country
populated by 538,000 jews and 397,000 arabs (in addition to a neighbouring
palestinian country) demostrated their willingness to obey the resolution of
international law. the arabs chose to use force.
[END QUOTE]
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
Vasilios Pilarinos
Uri Noy <uri...@ibm.net> wrote:
% Offering homosexual relationship in public? gee, Mr. P. #2,
% homosexuality and nationalism never went hand in hand, it's bad for
% your macho image. ( his replay to that will be obvious, but i'm straight)
Sorry, when talking to a Jew it's the first thing that comes to mind. It's
a well known fact that here in the US blowjobs is the most favorite sexual
by "faithful" Jews who want to save their "virginity" for when they get
married. Best part is, I'm talking from experience.. OY!
% or perhaps you think of the gulf war in which we did the US a HUGE favor by
% not respnding to scud attacks which killed our civilians, when the US
% was only doing the right thing in return and sent here a few "patriot"
% SAM batteries ( which did'nt stop the scuds but were good for civil
% moral ) and made an effort to hunt those scuds in west iraq.
A huge favor? If Israel made any attempts to attack Iraq, it would still
be uninhabitable for another 1000 years.
PS -- not a single SCUD was destroyed by the UN forces. And I would gather
they are still pointing at Israel.
% first we have a very bad experience with getting help or shelter from others,
% even friends, in times of desperate weakness.
Why do you think that is? Just because they like having a puppet
government in Israel and a nice military base doesn't actually mean they
like you. Face it, nobody does. They just hate you less than the
Muslim Arabs.
% so we really have no option but surviving here in israel. and as for the
% "drivven out" part, you can keep wishing, it wo'nt happen. israel is here to
% stay AND we are the rightful owners, on most of the land.
How is a European Jew, a Jew of European descent (hence the differences
in physical characteristics) a rightful owner of a land his ancestors
never had stepped their foot on? Based on religion? If that's the case,
I'd hate to see a neo-pagan revival cause then we'd all be fucked!
The fact of the matter is most semitic Jews were converted (forcefully or
not) to Islam and are the rightful owner of the land. European Jews can
visit Israel if they want, but the land belongs to the native inhabitants
... the majority of whom are Muslims, like it or not.
% I, and most israelis, would like american jews to come here and join us.
% jewish immigration has always just made us stronger.
Of course you would like for them to come there, to rebalance the
population in that part of the world and make more claims on land you are
forcefully and illegaly occupying.
However, Reformists and Conservative Jews here in the U.S. are getting the
picture (rightfully so) that they are lesser Jews and as such are becoming
more and more bitter against Israel. It's only a matter of time until they
too dislike you!
But worry not, crazy animals like Baruch Goldstein will continue flocking
to Israel knowing they'll be given the opportunity to kill Muslims armed
with rocks.
% Uri Noy
% ISRAEL
--
* Vasilios L. Pilarinos (vpil...@hellas.org)
|_ "Silence is the virtue of fools.-F.Bacon" * www.hellas.org/~vpilarin
Uri Noy
In article <35255B...@amiwest.com>, da...@amiwest.com wrote:
> I think you are sadly mistaken. You might want to ask Intel where some
>of the chips in your computer (if you are using a PC) are made.
>There is a real big Intel plant next to the highway from Tel Aviv to Haifa.
that's the R&D center. the production plant is in jerusalem. and they build a
new one now in another city.
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
Uri Noy
In article <6g5tml$s...@news9.noc.netcom.net>, Vasilios Pilarinos
<vpil...@hellas.org> wrote:
>How is a European Jew, a Jew of European descent (hence the differences
>in physical characteristics)
First, genetic 'mapping' research clearly shows that european origin jews are
much closer, genetically, to jews of middle east origin, than to any european
people, so this backs up the fact that we kept our uniquness all those years,
not just culturally, and that jewish mothers, even if they were not always
faithful to their husbands, they were at least faithful to their faith and had
kids from jewish men. well, mostly .
we are also close relatives, genetically, of our 'cousins' the arabs.
so there's no doubt that our origin is from this area of the world.
Second, regardless of our former genetic relation with each other, we are
quickly enhancing the ties bewteen us, becoming one again. i am of what you
call 'european' origin, but i have cousins of half-morrocan and cousins of
half-iraqi jewish origins ( all of them are second generation born in israel )
and my sister married my friend, of irani jewish origin. happy ?
soon the origin of a jew, whether from europe or elsewhere, will be not only
irrelevant, but also undefinable.
>a rightful owner of a land his ancestors never had stepped their foot on?
so you see, my ancestors did come from this land, and just comparing nose
shape ( you mentioned physical characteristics ), the nose shape which
european antisemitics repeatedly used in the past to characterise a jew, just
comparing a typical european jewish nose with a typical european and with a
typical arab, is enough to realize what i said is true, no need for deeper
genetic tests. you can visually see which is similar to which. we're from
here. we were away, and we returned.
>...armed with rocks.
don't forget the AK-47s and explosives.
Uri Noy
ISRAEL
Uri Noy
hi,
I'm conducting a minor test, it's purely technical, so regardless of the
thread 'subject', just please reply with a follow-up and just write the time
you post it. including you Mr. Pilarinos, if you'd be kind enough to post.
thanks
Uri Noy
ISRAEL