Do chaff and flares still work?
jlyu
With all the new ECM and laser jamming technologies, do the old chaff and flare
cartridges still work? I mean, missiles are designed today to hit stealthy targets
and to ignore flares and the sun, so what countermeasures do the modern pilot have at
his disposal these days?
Any info appreciated.
Pat
IanDTurner
carrying and using them.
Ian
Andrew Yeung
>If they don't, then the RAF is wasting an awfull lot of time and effort
>carrying and using them.
Well, maybe it's a case of something being better than nothing?
PaulReinman
something. It was over central Nevada and two F-16's were dogfighting at
low-level with the first one periodically dropping flares. Pretty neat !!
Paul
Mladen Stekovic
losses. If you ask Jamie Shea and other idiots they will
tell you that they worked wonders during operation Allied
Farce - I mean an average of 26 missiles per day......
But somehow it did not work for all Yugoslav pilots. They
all got shot-down (and yet somehow Yugoslavia pulled out 12
MiG-29s and 29 MiG-21 out of Kosovo......) - quick call
Mulder and Scully and all other idiots who are obsessed
with paranormal!!
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Drewe Manton
>losses. If you ask Jamie Shea and other idiots they will
>tell you that they worked wonders during operation Allied
>Farce - I mean an average of 26 missiles per day......
PICTURES. . . . .
regards
Drewe
Rama Lama Yip Diddley Aye
Temple of the Green Grass
"The stupidity of the action is directly proportional to the number of people
watching you"
Preserve wild life. . . pickle a Mon-key!
Charlie Lister
generally you are trying to fly away from the launch
The old radar guidance systems will also respond well to a chaff cloud, as
will traditional radar...
Horses for courses, the bottom line of which is know thine enemy and his
inventory.
jlyu wrote in message <2wCJ3.2240$Bf6.16591@pm02news>...
Jeff Hill
lot of time and effort doing something ineffective?
IanDTurner wrote:
> If they don't, then the RAF is wasting an awfull lot of time and effort
> carrying and using them.
>
> Ian
Matthew Horsten
persistence!
PICTURES! PICTURES! PICTURES!
Cheers
Matthew Horsten Wide Awake in Australia at q992...@mail.connect.usq.edu.au
Mladen Stekovic wrote in message
<0697b449...@usw-ex0102-012.remarq.com>...
>Why don't you ask all the people who claim that NATO had no
>losses. If you ask Jamie Shea and other idiots they will
>tell you that they worked wonders during operation Allied
>Farce - I mean an average of 26 missiles per day......
hjalm...@my-deja.com
"jlyu" <jl...@mciworld.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> With all the new ECM and laser jamming technologies, do the old chaff
and flare
> cartridges still work? I mean, missiles are designed today to hit
stealthy targets
> and to ignore flares and the sun, so what countermeasures do the
modern pilot have at
> his disposal these days?
>
> Any info appreciated.
>
> Pat
Classical chaff and flares are getting increasingly less effective
against the latest radar homing and IR homing missiles. That is the
reason that Missile Approach Warning (MAW) and towed, active radar
decoys and directional, modulated laser IR jammers are coming into the
inventories. However, chaff and flares still can increase the
probability of survival, especially against older missiles.
Regards,
Hal
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Swede4198
is geting the narrow laser beam into the seeker window while both the aircraft
and the missile are manuvering.
Karl
Steve Davies
Canadian...whoops; i mean Yugoslav language?
PICTURES, PICTURES, PICTURES...
--
Steve Davies
England
Mladen Stekovic <stekovic...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote in message
0697b449...@usw-ex0102-012.remarq.com...
Steve Davies
primarily:
1) Echo Area - which relies on effective 'blossom' of the chaff cloud or put
another way how well the individual chaff dipoles separate to create a
significant radar return This is also dependant on the number of dipoles in
the resolution of the targeting radar. Basically Chaff manufacturers spent a
lot of money trying to get the chaff dipoles to separate from eachother as
soon after release as possible- the more individual chaff dipoles
illuminated the greater the reflection. This criteria is heavily dependant
upon the type of radar the chaff bundle is designed to counter.
2) Chaff Material - Aluminium foil, Aluminised Glass Fibre, Silvered Nylon
and Other Materials (!). The different materials have different properties
and applications. Aluminium foil is used mainly by the Navy as it has very
good polarisation properties, whereas Aluminised Glass Fibre has a low 'fall
rate' and is better employed in and A2A environment. Other materials is
essentially modern chaff which i have yet to find out about! References have
been made though to such things as light-weigh iron, Copper or Aluminium
based polymer chaff
3) Fall Rate - Dependant on the type of chaff, its dimensions, altitude and
wx conditions. - the higher the chaff is released the longer it will stay
aloft, although his does not mean that it will remain effective so long as
it's up in the air!
4) Bloom Time - The time it takes the chaff to reach its maximum Echo Area.
This relies heavily on the method used to dispense the chaff. If you want to
break to the lock of a FCR you want the chaff to bloom ASAP - a good idea
therefore is to launch the chaff into the turbulent wake of your jet.
5) Polarisation - Basically this describes the attitude at which the dipoles
fall - horizontal and in a 'sycamore'/spiral trajectory. This means that the
chaff cloud provides a greater RCS for horizontally polarised Radar than
vertically polarised Radar
Remember that a chaff cloud needs only to temporarily seduce the radar to be
effective. Any advantage offered over a threat can be put to use by a
skilled pilot, and particularly where a missile threat is concerned even a
2-3 second time gain for the pilot can prove decisive. Typically ESM/RWR
gear on board an aircraft will automatically deploy chaff in both the right
lengths and sequence to be effective against a particular emitter type. Such
knowledge comes through having good intelligence about the emitter types to
be encountered, perhaps our rather stupid poster Stekovic should remember
that there are few eastern bloc radar types that the US have yet to
'acquire' and 'evaluate'. I would hazard a guess that they probably know
more about most threat emitters located in Yugoslavia than some of the
operators using them. it is therefore little wonder that in a heavily
intensive EM environment US and NATO equipment fairs well and the Yugoslavs
end up losing a disproportionately higher number of their planes.
Also remember that even deception jamming techniques have preset 'routines'
where at the end of the software routine the ECM system simply 'waits' for
the next radar to acquire a track before running the same routine again. In
reality it is not quite as simple as all that but for arguments sake here's
an example: Range Gate Pull-Off (a deception jamming technique) will 'walk'
the tracking radar off of the aircraft by providing false return information
to the radars tracking gates. Once the radar is pointing far enough away
from the jamming aircraft there is no need to keep jamming and the ECM
system has done its job - the tracking radar is now pointing in the wrong
piece of sky and must re-start its acquisition scan to re-acquire the
target.
When used in conjunction with active jamming techniques, manouvering and
passive evasion techniques chaff can certainly make a difference.
The effectiveness of flares depends primarily upon:
1) Speed of Ignition - The flare must light and achieve 2 - 5 times the
energy of the target ASAP
2) Burn Time - Obvious really - long enough to prevent the missile from
re-acquiring the target
3) Direction and Speed of Ejection - They must enter the missiles FOV and be
within its designated spectrum/wavelength. Ejection speed will help to draw
the target out of the missiles FOV ASAP.
4) Burn Distribution - flares which burn too brightly and then peter out can
trigger ECCM logic in a seekers circuitry, burn must therefore be even
5) Flare trajectory - once expended flares can trigger ECCM logic if they
decelerate of descend too quickly.
The effectiveness of flares also depends upon the type of missile being
guided. Typically all-aspect seekers can lock onto parts of the airframe
significantly cooler than the jet exhaust or jetpipe itself. As an example
the AIM-9M could feasibly guide on the leading edges of an aerodynamically
heated wing, such a target would be radiating a longer wavelength than an
exhaust efflux and therefore dictates that today's Flares are able to
radiate across longer wavelengths. IIR seekers also operate across multiple
wavelengths, again necessitating Flares which operate.
Modern IR seeker designers will capitalise on the fact that engines and
exhausts also produce IR 'spikes' at specific wavelengths depending upon
exhaust gas composition. If you know at which wavelength a specific engine
produces a 'spike' you can tell you IR missile to ignore anything outside of
that wavelength. Of course flare designers can also make use of this
technology, providing their flares with additives which produce greater
amounts of IR energy at a particular wavelength according to the 'spike'
produced by the carrying aircraft's engine(s).
Whilst you might think that these clever missiles may not lock onto the sun
you would be wrong. Even the latest versions of the AIM-9 have recommended
launch restrictions when facing the sun.
There are a number of countermeasures available or being tested for today's
fighter aircraft, of the ones i can remember (!):
EO - Contrast reduction, Obscurants, Retro-Reflection
IR - IR Jammers, decoys, flares
LASER - LASER Jammers
RADAR - Chaff, Jamming (Deception and Noise), Towed Decoys
The bottom line is that these systems must be used TOGETHER for best effect.
Hope this helps
Steve
--
Steve Davies
England
jlyu <jl...@mciworld.com> wrote in message 2wCJ3.2240$Bf6.16591@pm02news...
Lorne Gilsig
Pictures! Pictures! Pictures!
Lorne D. Gilsig
chunk
Steve Davies <steve_...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:7tb4qt$ocl$1...@lure.pipex.net...
> The effectiveness of Chaff depends upon many factors (surprise!), these
are
> primarily:
>
>
don't forget chaff length!
Steve Davies
snip...Typically ESM/RWR gear on board an aircraft will automatically deploy
chaff in both the right
lengths and sequence to be effective against a particular emitter
type...snip
--
Steve Davies
England
chunk <chu...@NOSPAMkonnect.net> wrote in message
7tcdta$1g04$1...@news1.konnect.net...
>
>Steve Davies <steve_...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
>news:7tb4qt$ocl$1...@lure.pipex.net...
>> The effectiveness of Chaff depends upon many factors (surprise!), these
>are
>> primarily:
>>
>>
>
>