Blue Angels October '99 crash report
Jcbanville1
Journal Staff Writer)
A prior rib injury may have momentarily impaired a Navy Blue Angels pilot and
caused the crash that killed him and another pilot last October.
An investigation determined three possible causes for the accident, but the rib
injury is "the most likely scenario," the Navy's air training chief wrote in a
report released Thursday.
The report found that Lt. Cmdr. Kieron O'Connor's injury might have made it
difficult for him to tense his abdominal muscles to avoid blacking out during a
turn that exerts a high gravitational pull. Constricting the abdominal muscles
keeps blood in the brain.
In supporting the injury theory, Read Adm. Mike Bucchi rejected the conclusion
of the investigating officer, who wrote that a bird strike or close pass likely
distracted O'Connor as he made a left bank turn.
Bucchi also disagreed with at third scenario, in which O'Connor may have been
briefly distracted and inadvertently allowed the aircraft to lose altitude.
There is no evidence of a mechanical problem.
The Oct. 28 crash killed O'Connor, 35, who was flying the F/A-18 Hornet, and
Lt. Kevin Colling, 32, a new pilot with the squadron who was riding in the back
seat. They were taking a familiarization flight near Valdosta, Ga., before
the flight demonstration squadron's air show that weekend at Moody Air Force
Base.
The report said O'Connor hurt his ribs six days before the accident during a
squadron game in which everyone drops to the ground from their chairs. He
accidentally landed on his side against Colling's knee.
The Navy refused to explain why the pilots were playing the game and the
inch-thick report gave few details about it.
Cmdr. John Ottery, Blue Angels public affairs officer, said the "report speaks
for itself" and referred all questions to the chief of Naval Air Training,
based in Corpus Christi, Texas.
No administrative or punitive action will be taken against anyone because of
the accident.
Shortly after injuring himself, O'Connor notified the flight surgeon about
pain. Although X-rays found no broken ribs, O'Connor winced when pressure was
applied to the injured area.
"He was a little tender between the seventh and eighth rib but it didn't bother
him that much," Blue Angel flight surgeon Lt. Cmdr. Pat McMahon wrote in the
report.
O'Connor aggravated the injury performing hard bank turns during training
flights. Such turns expose pilots to extreme gravitational forces, what
aviators call g's. When this happens, pilots perform a maneuver called
"hooking," a tensing of the abdominal muscles to keep enough blood flow to the
brain to prevent blacking out.
Some aviators, including the Air Force flight demonstration team the
Thunderbirds, use special suits that help keep blood in the brain. The Blue
Angels do not use the so-called "G suits."
After a Tuesday practice flight, O'Connor talked to the flight surgeon about
the injury.
"He struggled with the g's a little bit and admitted to 'getting a little
gray,'" McMahon wrote. "However, he told me that he did not black out. He
said 'I knew it was going to hurt and I forgot to hook. Once I started hooking
I was OK.'"
The investigation found that O'Connor might not have let on how much the injury
bothered him. Tests determined that he took Ibuprofen the day before or the
day of the accident despite a Navy policy against self-medicating. The flight
surgeon did not know he took the pain reliever.
Cmdr. Brian Toon, the officer assigned to investigate the mishap, disputed the
injury as the likely cause because O'Connor could have been taking Ibuprofen
for any number of minor aches and pains.
Pilots in the squadron found the injury to be minor and wrote in statements
that O'Connor would not have allowed himself to fly if he did not feel up to
the task.
Cmdr. Patrick Driscoll, Blue Angels commanding officer, described O'Connor as a
safe and capable pilot.
"I believe that he would not have flown had he thought it unsafe to do so,
especially during a practice. It's every pilot's responsibility to cry 'uncle'
when he is too tired or sore to fly. We don't want to put other pilots at risk
by pushing the limits. O'Connor would not be the type to go flying if he was
not well enough."
Blue Angels pilot Lt. Cmdr. David Silkey, a close friend of O'Connor, said he
ran with O'Connor after the injury and talked to him about whether he could
fly. O'Connor told Silkey that he was "good to go."
"I know in my heart that mishap wasn't caused by the g's," Silkey wrote.
Many of the pilots' and witnesses' accounts support the theory that a bird
strike or pass distracted O'Connor. The report said numerous eyewitnesses
observed large birds near the crash site before impact and the Air Force
submitted a bird advisory that day.
A bird strike can be extremely dangerous if a bird is sucked into a jet engine
or hits the cockpit canopy at high speed. A large bird or a flock of birds
sucked into an engine can cripple a jet. Birds have been known to crash
through canopies and knock pilots unconscious.
Walt Shiel
> From the February 11, 2000 Pensacola News Journal (by Scott Schonauer, News
> Journal Staff Writer)
>
<snip>
> The report said O'Connor hurt his ribs six days before the accident during a
> squadron game in which everyone drops to the ground from their chairs. He
> accidentally landed on his side against Colling's knee.
>
> The Navy refused to explain why the pilots were playing the game and the
> inch-thick report gave few details about it.
DEAD BUG!!!
Walt
--
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Walt Shiel
http://www.writeshiel.com
Author: "Cessna Warbirds: A Detailed and Personal
History of Cessna's Involvement in the Armed Forces"
--"A true military aviation enthusiast's delight." - Airpower Journal
BUY IT: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1879825252/waltshielauthorc
------
Author: "Cabbages and Kings: An Eclectic Mix of Short Fiction"
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Randy Haskin
> > squadron game in which everyone drops to the ground from their
chairs
> DEAD BUG!!!
This brings up a good question: just what are the origins and how old
are fighter pilot games like "Deceased Insect?"
How old is the whole "box" and "head" game (of course, I
mean "container" and "cranium")? I was told that was an old Vietnam
fighter pilot game. True?
Where did the whole "Jeremiah Weed" thing come from? When I was out at
Nellis, the Weapons School guys told some tale about an F-4 crew
ejecting on the range and finding an old miner bar where all they
served was Jeremiah Weed. True? Anyone heard any other origins?
It's these things that perplex young, budding fighter aviators like
myself. Maybe someone can shed a little light on the subject?
Ed? Walt? Roscoe? What kinds of reidneer games did you all play that
haven't been carried on?
Randy Haskin
str...@ix.netcom.com
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Ed Rasimus
>This brings up a good question: just what are the origins and how old
>are fighter pilot games like "Deceased Insect?"
I first encountered Deceased Insect at Nellis in 1965. It was only
done in the stag bar and it was a simple game with few rules, but all
present in a flight suit complied when they lost.
Over the years, I saw evolution in which greater detail was offered
such as: last lose has "the hammer" and is the only one who can call.
Someone without the hammer who calls is forced to buy. Whether or not
there were "hammer carry-over" was at local discretion--quite often
local carry-over applied during squadron TDY's.
Also at various times a range of violence was possible against those
who were present in the stag bar but declined to comply with the
obligation to buy.
>How old is the whole "box" and "head" game (of course, I
>mean "container" and "cranium")? I was told that was an old Vietnam
>fighter pilot game. True?
Certain words with certain connotations were prohibited during the
long periods away from familiar feminine companionship. Of course,
there were also few places in the world in which feminine
companionship wasn't available. At least before Desert Storm brought
new prohibitions into play.
>Where did the whole "Jeremiah Weed" thing come from? When I was out at
>Nellis, the Weapons School guys told some tale about an F-4 crew
>ejecting on the range and finding an old miner bar where all they
>served was Jeremiah Weed. True?
Think about it. Ever met an "old miner" who would even consider
drinking something as sweet and effete as JW? Naahhh.
Much more likely a drinking game conjured up as a likely way to
lubricate a fighter pilot groupy or two. Embellish with a few lies
about tradition and voila....
>Anyone heard any other origins?
>It's these things that perplex young, budding fighter aviators like
>myself. Maybe someone can shed a little light on the subject?
>Ed? Walt? Roscoe? What kinds of reidneer games did you all play that
>haven't been carried on?
A favorite, dating back also to Nellis in '65 was the "goony-bird
survival kit" de-frocking. Since fighter pilots wore G-suits and the
survival knife pocket on the K-2B was covered, it wasn't necessary for
fighter pilots and would only be required of trash haulers. Therefore,
if a supposed fighter driver showed up with one, it was common to walk
up and without warning reach down, grab the tab and with one smooth
motion remove the knife pocket.
Unfortunately, old cotton and even new Nomex doesn't always know it is
supposed to release the stitches. Often the entire leg of the flight
suit would go. I recall one late night at Nellis with several 1/Lt s
in various states of undress caused by torn knife pockets--to the
degree that Nels Running was left with just a sleeve and a big gray
sheet of cloth. We all then grabbed him and threw him through the
double doors into the main dining room. (Nels of course eventually
rose to two star rank and 12th AF vice-CC.)
During '66 in SEA, there was the "no T-shirt showing" foolishness.
Some REMF decided it looked unmilitary to have the white collar show,
so we were all supposed to buy and wear U-neck T-shirts. Of course, we
didn't. But it gave Glenn Nix (six year POW) a chance to walk up to
people in the Korat bar and simply reach up and extract their T-shirt
by grabbing the neck and pulling. Lots of fights generated by that
one.
And, probably the greatest (and most abused) is the "hat in the bar"
rule. One of the flight commanders in my squadron at Torrejon, was
Sandy Sanderson--former Raven and possessor of a 1st Cav hat awarded
him by Army guys he supported. Sandy would bring the Cav hat on every
deployment and without fail wear it into the bar on the first night.
Naturally that meant he would buy.
I loved the idea and made it a point, as squadron ops officer, that
whenever Sandy walked in with the Cav hat, I'd reach in my flight suit
pocket and get out my own cap and put it on. That meant throwing $50
on the bar. But, soon it also meant that all the flight commanders
followed, and eventually it meant that everyone bought one round and
nobody took too big a hit. But morale was sky-high.
There's more....
Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
*** Ziff-Davis Interactive
*** (http://www.zdnet.com)
Dudley Henriques
Jcbanville1 <jcban...@cs.comcom> wrote in message
news:20000321123027...@ng-fz1.news.cs.com...
> From the February 11, 2000 Pensacola News Journal (by Scott Schonauer,
News
> Journal Staff Writer)
>
> A prior rib injury may have momentarily impaired a Navy Blue Angels pilot
and
> caused the crash that killed him and another pilot last October.
>
The "Dead Bug" goes way back in the fighter community. The origins are said
to be varied. One story has it related to Ron Cotton's inverted pass with a
Thud that never made it into the Thunderbird's show. God knows about the
others. I know it was a tradition with the "Birds" for many years, and
almost always involved the purchase of drinks at the O club. As the story
goes, when the call of "Dead Bug" rings out, everyone drops and assumes the
position.....or else.
I'm with the Blues who don't buy the findings of the MIR.
I've flown enough tactical pitch outs of my own to resist being told that a
pilot of O'Connor's capabilities would pull himself into a sleep without
unloading the airplane, hook or no hook. He knew how he felt and he knew
what happens at high radial g. It would have been completely out of
character for him to simply pitch the airplane into a highly loaded turn,
knowing full well what the consequences could be.
That being said.......it's just my opinion.
--
Dudley A. Henriques
Past President 1971-1985
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
BUFDRVR
I don't know, but unforunately its "spilled" over into the bomber world....uhh
I hate that stuff. If it was the "miner story" I wish the miner had nothing but
JD.
BUFDRVR
"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"
Ed Rasimus
Then of course there is that 3:00 AM favorite in the bar, usually
attributed to the redoubtable leadership of Robin Olds--the Mig Sweep.
Robin and as many of the larger airplane drivers who could still
navigate would form on one side of the room, link arms and rush across
the area knocking down anything that dared to stand in the way. Bar
stools, tables, lamps, chairs and any bar-room denizen that hadn't
noticed the impending assault. Of course, any Mig Sweep could
encounter a defensive reaction--and a good time would be had by all.
There was also the relatively sloppy game of Carrier Landings. (I
don't know that naval aviators play this--opting for the less
challenging pastime of simply landing high performance aircraft on a
pitching boat deck under any and all conditions of weather and
daylight.)
USAF aviators, acting out their envy of their less intelligent
aeronautical bretheren who choose to aviate away from Scotch whiskey,
lose women and large runways, would gather one or more tables in the
bar and designate them a carrier. Embellishment was encourage with
such things as "landing lights" (beer bottles arrayed along the deck
edges) or "overrun barriers" (a row of glasses at the departure end of
the "deck"). Usually "weather" would be added in the form of a good
splashing of the deck with beer. Then the intrepid aviators would
attempt carrier landings by running around the room and flinging
themselves on the deck longitudinally--usually to go sliding off the
departure end. Occasionally an "arresting hook" such as a wire coat
hangar would be held to catch the leading edge of the deck (the
futility of stopping a 180 pound man in full flight with a small wire
was seldom noted.) Points were awarded for style, speed, quality of
arrestment, and the inevitable wipe outs---sort of like the real thing
with the emphasis of a "green three".
Jeff Crowell
Ed Rasimus wrote:
>A favorite, dating back also to Nellis in '65 was the "goony-bird
>survival kit" de-frocking. Since fighter pilots wore G-suits and the
>survival knife pocket on the K-2B was covered, it wasn't necessary for
>fighter pilots and would only be required of trash haulers. Therefore,
>if a supposed fighter driver showed up with one, it was common to walk
>up and without warning reach down, grab the tab and with one smooth
>motion remove the knife pocket.
Yup, remember this one as recently as Miramar '82, in
the flight suit bar, the WOXOF ("The World's One &
Only Finest.") I don't think I ever heard anyone actually
refer to the place by its actual name, The Hawkeye Lounge.
>And, probably the greatest (and most abused) is the "hat in the bar"
>rule.
Available in multiple flavors. I wasn't so green that I hadn't heard
of the "wear the hat in the bar" thing (hell, there was a sign in every
O-Club bar I ever saw: "He who enters covered here, shall buy the
bar a round of cheer."), but I was taken by surprise by the "place
yer lynch lid on the bar and ya better have yer VISA card handy"
rule. I was a victim of that flavor in the Key West O-Club bar in '82.
That was not cheap.
Then there was the "3-man lift" game. Anyone remember that one?
Jeff
Jeff Crowell
>There was also the relatively sloppy game of Carrier Landings. (I
>don't know that naval aviators play this--opting for the less
>challenging pastime of simply landing high performance aircraft on a
>pitching boat deck under any and all conditions of weather and
>daylight.)
Yup. Or used to, anyway. I dunno what those kids are up to
any more...
>USAF aviators, acting out their envy of their less intelligent
>aeronautical bretheren who choose to aviate away from Scotch whiskey,
>lose women and large runways,
Yep, my favorite numbers is that the LENGTH of the touchdown
zone in the wires of your local birdfarm is somewhat less than
the WIDTH of the runway at the bluesuiters' patch. You could
simultaneously trap an entire carrier air wing, landing sideways,
on an airforce runway. Dunno that the ground crews would
ever get over having to reset that many sets of a-gear, though.
>would gather one or more tables in the
>bar and designate them a carrier. Embellishment was encourage with
>such things as "landing lights" (beer bottles arrayed along the deck
>edges) or "overrun barriers" (a row of glasses at the departure end of
>the "deck"). Usually "weather" would be added in the form of a good
>splashing of the deck with beer.
If you were real lucky, you'd be landing in reeeaaallllyy bad
weather; in many cases, the intrepid aviator would land in the
teeth of a gale, with green water (pitchers of beer) liberally tossed
in his face. Made a hell of a mess. Or he'd crash (slide off the
end of the 'deck' or with too much sideways drift at touchdown
("right for lineup!") and go into the pack) and have to have the
fires put out. You guessed it--more beer.
Our decks were usually several tables, placed end to end.
So sliding off the end or over the side bore a certain penalty.
We'd use mike cords, shoelaces, etc., as arresting gear wires,
and you tried to hook 'em with your toes. Didn't work very often,
as one would guess.
>Then the intrepid aviators would
>attempt carrier landings by running around the room and flinging
>themselves on the deck longitudinally--usually to go sliding off the
>departure end. Occasionally an "arresting hook" such as a wire coat
>hangar would be held to catch the leading edge of the deck (the
>futility of stopping a 180 pound man in full flight with a small wire
>was seldom noted.) Points were awarded for style, speed, quality of
>arrestment, and the inevitable wipe outs---sort of like the real thing
>with the emphasis of a "green three".
Ah, memories. Thanks, Ed.
Jeff
BlackBeard
<jeff_crow...@hp.com> wrote:
but I was taken by surprise by the "place
>yer lynch lid on the bar and ya better have yer VISA card handy"
>rule. I was a victim of that flavor in the Key West O-Club bar in '82.
>That was not cheap.
>
Was surprised to see a local addition... Any Officer had to buy a round
if their spouse called the bar phone. One guy had really PO'd his wife.
She called about 5 times one night.
BlackBeard
Submarines once, Submarines twice...
""Bless those who serve beneath the deep, Through lonely hours their vigil keep, May peace their mission ever be, Protect each one we ask of thee.
Bless those at home who wait and pray, For their return by night or day."
-Rev. Gale Williamson
Ed Rasimus
>In article <8bb19v$rjg$1...@hpbs1500.boi.hp.com>, "Jeff Crowell"
><jeff_crow...@hp.com> wrote:
> but I was taken by surprise by the "place
>>yer lynch lid on the bar and ya better have yer VISA card handy"
>>rule.
>
> Was surprised to see a local addition... Any Officer had to buy a round
>if their spouse called the bar phone. One guy had really PO'd his wife.
>She called about 5 times one night.
Ah, now if we're getting into bar rules, that's a whole different ball
game.
Of course, it starts with "he who enters covered here, will buy for
all a round of cheer."
And, then there is the corollary, "he who rings this bell in jest,
buys a round for all the rest."
But after that, there's a whole array of wonderful excuses for drinks.
Among them are Jeff's experience with a "hat on the bar" as well as
Blackbeard's mention of buying if your spouse calls for you at the
bar.
There is also the question of "quibbling" when told that you have to
buy.
And, my favorite, is the one at the bottom of the posted list of
rules, "anyone caught reading these rules...."
Things have changed though. We've seen the political correctness take
over. First it was "Mrs General..." doesn't approve of topless dancers
in the stag bar. Then it was "Mrs Admiral..." doesn't like hearing
your songs in the main dining room. Then it was the AP/MP/SP car
parked around the corner from the O'Club parking lot exit to stop and
breathalyze anyone on their way home...must de-emphasis alcohol, you
know.
What a surprise when the clubs began to collapse with no attendance.
I remember sitting in the squadron lounge at Holloman after the last
sorties of the day had launched. Sipping a beer, I eavesdropped on a
cluster of five new student IP candidates from the new class. They
were gathered, drinking diet cokes and talking about mutual funds and
annuities. What happened to fighter pilots clustering to swap lies
about wars, and flying and female conquests?? I knew then that this
ol' dinosaur was of a breed that was rapidly approaching extinction.
BlackBeard
wrote:
>
>I remember sitting in the squadron lounge at Holloman after the last
>sorties of the day had launched. Sipping a beer, I eavesdropped on a
>cluster of five new student IP candidates from the new class. They
>were gathered, drinking diet cokes and talking about mutual funds and
>annuities. What happened to fighter pilots clustering to swap lies
>about wars, and flying and female conquests?? I knew then that this
>ol' dinosaur was of a breed that was rapidly approaching extinction.
Sadly true. The change in the 'club' from when I started here 15 years
ago and now is mortal.
No Enlisted or Chiefs club, just an all hands Recreation center. The
old Barefoot Bar (O'club pool bar) is now an all hands, open about 20 hrs.
per week club. The bell has been removed from the Rec. center. So has
the American Flag and pictures of pilots and sailors from the last 50
years. Happy hours are stricly forbidden and it's beer and wine only
except for special occasions. I had my 40th B-day there and 6 of the 35
or so guests were stopped leaving the club. Not one ticket, we had
designated drivers, but they pulled them over just because they had been
at the club.
Now one alcohol related incident can ruin a career or any hopes of one.
Base clubs have to be subsidized or they go under.
Work hard, play hard. Now the phrase belongs in the museum next to the
other memories of a different day.
Nate Meier
Dudley Henriques <dhenr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:n%VB4.21400$Nn6.8...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> I've flown enough tactical pitch outs of my own to resist being told that
a
> pilot of O'Connor's capabilities would pull himself into a sleep without
> unloading the airplane, hook or no hook. He knew how he felt and he knew
> what happens at high radial g. It would have been completely out of
> character for him to simply pitch the airplane into a highly loaded turn,
> knowing full well what the consequences could be.
Could you translate that last paragraph into English please? :=)
--
Nate Meier [nme...@chat.carleton.ca]
Aerospace Engineering
Carleton University
Dangerpig
used to be a great bar that was packed every night and the scene of events
that will be talked about for decades to come is now a pizza and sub shop
with MP's waiting in the parking lot. A group of pilots from my unit were
recently told to "Hold it Down" on Friday night because some O-6's daughter
was having a birthday party.
We have a bar book which is where the misdeeds of our aviators are kept,
when there is an Officer's Call the guilty party's are made to pay up.
"Ed Rasimus" <thu...@rmii.com> wrote in message
news:38d916da...@news.rmi.net...
> I remember sitting in the squadron lounge at Holloman after the last
> sorties of the day had launched. Sipping a beer, I eavesdropped on a
> cluster of five new student IP candidates from the new class. They
> were gathered, drinking diet cokes and talking about mutual funds and
> annuities. What happened to fighter pilots clustering to swap lies
> about wars, and flying and female conquests?? I knew then that this
> ol' dinosaur was of a breed that was rapidly approaching extinction.
>
Michael Williamson
>
> > I've flown enough tactical pitch outs of my own to resist being told that
> a
> > pilot of O'Connor's capabilities would pull himself into a sleep without
> > unloading the airplane, hook or no hook. He knew how he felt and he knew
> > what happens at high radial g. It would have been completely out of
> > character for him to simply pitch the airplane into a highly loaded turn,
> > knowing full well what the consequences could be.
>
> Could you translate that last paragraph into English please? :=)
>
Mr. Henriquez doubts that a pilot of O'Connor's skill and expertise
would pull enough 'G' in the turn to G-LOC or otherwise lose control
of the aircraft due to a known injury. He would know that the injury
would affect his ability to withstand G , and act accordingly.
A rapid application of G without proper preparation CAN result in
loss of consciousness, but O'Connor's experience argues against his
being caught unprepared, especially for a maneuver that he initiated
and knew was coming.
Do the Blue Angels have cockpit HUD recorders and if so, are they
typically employed during these types of flights and this phase of the
flight? Or crash survivable data recorders, which could record
control inputs and give the board some clue as to what the pilot was
doing at the time?
Mike Williamson
EC-130H Compass Call
SilverFox
an old F4 jock, and have many fond memories of the games of the
trade. Don't know the original beginings, but did we have fun.
I was stationed at Clark in the late 60s and got down to Cubi
Point on more than one occaision. The O'Club there had a "real"
carrier landing rig in the basement of the club. There was a
mockup cockpit on a rail that lead down hill into the swimming
pool. The rig had a real hook and a wire across and between the
tracks. One could drop the hook at anytime in the approach.
But, if dropped too soon a wood ramp deflected the hook over the
wire and the cockpit and occupant ended up in the drink. That
was a very elaborate rig, much to Navy chigrin, I snagged the
wire on my attempt.
At Clark, we had the 405th Fighter Wing with F4s, F102s, & B57s.
There was also a wing of C130s on the base. By tradition the
Hill Club, the informal O'club up the hill beyond the base
housing was frequented mostly by the fighter jocks. After the
130 guys arrived on base from Mactaan, they set up an evening of
food and drinks that they wanted to call airlift uplift hour.
On the occasion of their first event, we fighter jocks literally
took over the place scarfing up all their food and beer and
proceeded to conduct carrier landings on the patio, during which
many of the trash haulers got soaked with water and suds. That
was the last uplift at the Hill Club.
I was at Holloman in the early 70s when we set up the fighter
lead-in program with T38s. About 25 of we IPs were combat vets
and combined had more fighter combat time in our squadron than
did the entire four F4 squadrons. That created a lot of friendly
rivalry between the two sides of the base.
Another game that I came across was roof stomping. You simply
gathered up a group of guys at the stag bar and headed out to
greet the poor sap who was the first to leave happy hour. We
climbed up on the roof and stomped until we we invited in for
the next round of drinks. Back in 73 at Laredo AFB, we had a
change in wing commanders and this one evening we decided to
greet the new wing CO about 10pm one friday evening. Gen.
Bazley, then Col., called us all in for a round, which was
remarkable as that day had been moving in day. So the house was
full of boxes etc. Soon we were off to other houses and finally
about midnight some ex SAC type who lived next door to the
victim called the sky cops. Well here come young airman noclass,
lights a flashing. He quickly recognizes that it is the wing CO
on top of the building razing cane. He tucks tail and departs,
discretion being the better part of valor.
Silver Fox
aka Larry Garner, 389TFS 70-71
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
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Ron Miller
: I was stationed at Clark in the late 60s and got down to Cubi
: Point on more than one occaision. The O'Club there had a "real"
Just heard my father (Navy F-4 guy) describe an escapade where a group
of guys rode their Hondas (50 and 90 cc) around the inside of the
Cubi O club. Rode in down some stairs, rode out the back door down some
stairs. The Base CO (O-6) even approved it! :-)
Ron Miller
wal...@oneimage.com
>Just stumbled into this site and this little discussion.
Way back when there used to be 3 ADC squadrons at atime deployed to Tyndall for a month of
missile and rocket firing. We played a dice-cup game called 7-11-21. Whoever rolled the 7th ace
named a drink, made of any 3 ingredients. The guy rolling the 11 ace had to pay for it and the
guy rolling the 21st ace had to drink it. Great with a crowd around the table. The worst drink
I remember was served warm - a layer of creme de menthe, a layer of gin, topped with another
layer of creme de menthe. A triple martini was a piece of cake compared to that. They had a waiter
who could remember orders of over different 20 drinks at a time. Amazing.
Bet the last time "Sammy Small" was sung at Nellis was the 25FIS (52-55) reunion there in 96; the bar
was empty except for us by 2000. BTW 3 retried generals were singing as loud as anyone else.
Walt BJ ftr plt ret
Michael Williamson
>
> Crash-survivable Flight Data Recorders are intentionally not mounted on
> fighter type aircraft to prohibit that type of performance information
> from being recovered by badguys on crashed/shot down jets.
The F-16, at least, does carry a crash survivable data unit, for the
purpose of deciphering aircraft system info during an incident or
mishap. The data may be encrypted, but it is installed. This
includes data such as control inputs, engine performance, etc., and
can be extremely helpful in determining what exactly was occurring in
such a mishap as this. It can tell, for instance, whether the pilot
was making control inputs in the few seconds before the crash,
possibly ruling out (or strengthening a theory of) pilot
incapacitation such as G-LOC.
Mike Williamson
Randy Haskin
> Do the Blue Angels have cockpit HUD recorders and if so, are they
> typically employed during these types of flights and this phase of the
> flight? Or crash survivable data recorders, which could record
> control inputs and give the board some clue as to what the pilot was
> doing at the time?
I don't know about the F-18, but in the Strike Eagle the VTR is a no-
shit off the shelf Sony 8mm recorder (obviously strong enough to handle
the Gs) bolted to the left panel in the WSO 'pit. The 8mm tape in
there would not survive a serious crash with postimpact fire.
Crash-survivable Flight Data Recorders are intentionally not mounted on
fighter type aircraft to prohibit that type of performance information
from being recovered by badguys on crashed/shot down jets.
Randy Haskin
Ken Garlington
news:8bedom$4k0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Crash-survivable Flight Data Recorders are intentionally not mounted on
> fighter type aircraft to prohibit that type of performance information
> from being recovered by badguys on crashed/shot down jets.
Well, no, that's not true. Just doing a simple Web search yields the
following:
F-16: http://wcco.com/news/stories/news-970417-100935.html
F/A-18: http://www.itc-net.com/products/fsc.html
F-117: http://cnn.com/US/9709/15/stealth.crash/
F-22: http://lmasc.external.lmco.com/f22/mgacroad.html#C (look for CSFDR)
Joe Sambor
right aft quarter, just forward of the right horizontal tail, up under the
chaff/flare bucket. A typical CSMU holds about twenty minutes worth of crash
data. The SAU (Signal Acquisition Unit) sits up forward in the Avionics bay,
usually does not do well in the crash, but many do survive. It holds a great
deal more data. The data is not encrypted, but you do need special software
to look at it. The CSFDR system is usually downloaded at 150 hour intervals
(75 hr for FMS countries) and the data is used to predict structural fatigue
and drive structural inspections at predicted intervals. F-16s have carried
CSMUs since the mid 1980's if I remember correctly. In addition to the CSFDR
system, F-16 Flight Control Computers and ECAs have some memory that holds
some flight data, and there is a little version of a data recorder mounted
on the ejection seat, which will give some flight control information.
I visited Tinker AFB a few years back, where they do the data decompression
and generate animations. They had a very informative demo where they had
taken a video movie at an airshow and then downloaded the CSFDR. The
animation they created was shown split-screen with the video, and they
matched almost precisely. Very impressive. They also showed me a fixture
that they use to download data directly from chips in the CSMU. If the CSMU
does not survive the crash, the chips (which are mounted in lead to absorb
the shock) may sometimes be recovered and data read directly from them.
If the CSMU is recovered, it is generally not downloaded by the mishap unit.
It is sent off to Tinker or Lockheed for the download. Sometimes the boards
in the SAU can be salvaged, installed in another chassis, and data
retrieved. It is all very interesting work, something I would like to get
into sometime in my career with Lockheed.
Joe Sambor
LM Aero Field Service
Chiayi AB, ROC
P.S. Is that Mike Williamson from Cannon AFB?
Michael Williamson <spe...@azstarnet.com> wrote in message
news:38DAFD06...@azstarnet.com...
> Randy Haskin wrote:
> >
> > Crash-survivable Flight Data Recorders are intentionally not mounted on
> > fighter type aircraft to prohibit that type of performance information
> > from being recovered by badguys on crashed/shot down jets.
>
Randy Haskin
> Very true. The CSFDR CSMU (Crash Survivable Memory Unit) is mounted
in the
> right aft quarter, just forward of the right horizontal tail, up
under the
> chaff/flare bucket. A typical CSMU holds about twenty minutes worth
of crash
> data.
Interesting...I went the the AF's jet engine accident investigation
course at Sheppard in '95 and that's exactly what I was told (i.e. that
they don't put FDRs on fighters because of the sensitive performance
information). I fly the F-15E now and I'm pretty sure we don't have a
FDR, but I wasn't aware of what the Viper had. I stand corrected.
MSU94
>course at Sheppard
I am from Wichita Falls myself...Lived there most
my life, got my pvt, inst, and commerial ratings there.
Jjust left there recently to move up here to Fargo to
fly freight..Small world
Mary Shafer
>> The report said O'Connor hurt his ribs six days before the accident
>> during a squadron game in which everyone drops to the ground from
>> their chairs. He accidentally landed on his side against Colling's
>> knee.
>> The Navy refused to explain why the pilots were playing the game
>> and the inch-thick report gave few details about it.
> DEAD BUG!!!
That's what I said a month ago, when this was posted in
rec.aviation.military.naval, and everyone agreed with me.
I then went on to mention a book I'd read about TAC F-15 pilots, where
the adaption involved watching Star Trek reruns at the O Club and
dropping whenever Klingons were mentioned. Someone else had read the
same dreadful book, but we couldn't remember the name or author
(except we both think we remembered that the author was a woman).
Anyone here who does? If so, please send your guess by e-mail, as I'm
going to be gone for a little while and postings may expire before I
return.
--
Mary Shafer http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html
sha...@orville.dfrc.nasa.gov Of course I don't speak for NASA
Senior Handling Qualities Research Engineer
NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, CA
For non-aerospace mail, use sha...@spdcc.com please
Mary Shafer
> The "Dead Bug" goes way back in the fighter community. The origins
> are said to be varied. One story has it related to Ron Cotton's
> inverted pass with a Thud that never made it into the Thunderbird's
> show. God knows about the others. I know it was a tradition with the
> "Birds" for many years, and almost always involved the purchase of
> drinks at the O club. As the story goes, when the call of "Dead
> Bug" rings out, everyone drops and assumes the position.....or else.
In my single experience with "Dead Bug", it's not limited to the
T-Birds and guests are exempted, particularly visiting women engineers
in silk suits (I still bought the round for everyone in the squadron I
was visiting).
Mary Shafer
about some sort of ejection simulator in an O Club somewhere, I think.
Maybe Clark or Subic? I've forgotten the entire story, but I do
remember that vast quantities of beer were involved somehow.
Of course, the whole thing could have been a put-on; I've been told
more than one story that was more fancy than true by fighter pilots.
Michael Toler
Mary Shafer wrote:
> Walt Shiel <wa...@writeshiel.com> writes:
>
> >> The report said O'Connor hurt his ribs six days before the accident
> >> during a squadron game in which everyone drops to the ground from
> >> their chairs. He accidentally landed on his side against Colling's
> >> knee.
>
> >> The Navy refused to explain why the pilots were playing the game
> >> and the inch-thick report gave few details about it.
>
> > DEAD BUG!!!
>
> That's what I said a month ago, when this was posted in
> rec.aviation.military.naval, and everyone agreed with me.
>
> I then went on to mention a book I'd read about TAC F-15 pilots, where
> the adaption involved watching Star Trek reruns at the O Club and
> dropping whenever Klingons were mentioned. Someone else had read the
> same dreadful book, but we couldn't remember the name or author
> (except we both think we remembered that the author was a woman).
Hmmm, the book I remember was "A Force of Eagles" about some hotshot Nam
pilot (first ace, fiction). Was really a good book for those of us who
only wish we fly the big birds.
The descriptions of the different types of pilots (F-111 vs F15 vs F16 vs
others) was hilarious. I think the name of the Author was Tom Wilson,
but I'd have to check.
My favorite two characters were the Weasel brothers. They were a pair of
retired Weasels who went into the EW development business.
Ouch out
Randy Haskin
> Bet the last time "Sammy Small" was sung at Nellis was the 25FIS (52-
55) reunion there in 96; the bar
> was empty except for us by 2000. BTW 3 retried generals were singing
as loud as anyone else.
Negative. I personally sang harmony on the "f#*k 'em all" portions of
Sammy Small at the Check Six at Nellis in '98. Fighter pilot songs are
still alive and well, regardless of what people might be hearing.
Lchamp423
>bar and designate them a carrier. Embellishment was encourage with
>such things as "landing lights" (beer bottles arrayed along the deck
>edges) or "overrun barriers" (a row of glasses at the departure end of
>the "deck"). Usually "weather" would be added in the form of a good
>attempt carrier landings by running around the room and flinging
>themselves on the deck longitudinally--usually to go sliding off the
>departure end. Occasionally an "arresting hook" such as a wire coat
>hangar would be held to catch the leading edge of the deck (the
>futility of stopping a 180 pound man in full flight with a small wire
>was seldom noted.) Points were awarded for style, speed, quality of
>arrestment, and the inevitable wipe outs---sort of like the real thing
>with the emphasis of a "green three".
I seem to recall an incident at a base in Germany(?) in the early 1960s where
someone approached the 'carrier' a little low and crashed into the approach end
with the top of his head. We arrived soon afterward and the 'carrier landing'
bit was banned at that O'Club. I don't think the ban lasted too long...
Larry Champion
Paul J. Adam
<with...@at.employers.request> writes
>Hmmm, the book I remember was "A Force of Eagles" about some hotshot
>Nam
>pilot (first ace, fiction). Was really a good book for those of us who
>only wish we fly the big birds.
>
>The descriptions of the different types of pilots (F-111 vs F15 vs F16 vs
>others) was hilarious. I think the name of the Author was Tom Wilson,
>but I'd have to check.
Richard Herman Jnr. Part of a series: "The Warbirds", "A Force Of
Eagles", "Firebreak", "Mosquito Run", "Dark Wing" and "Iron Gate" are
the ones I've got so far. Good stuff.
>My favorite two characters were the Weasel brothers. They were a pair of
>retired Weasels who went into the EW development business.
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...
Paul J. Adam pa...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk
Passmore
>
> > Very true. The CSFDR CSMU (Crash Survivable Memory Unit) is mounted
> in the
> > right aft quarter, just forward of the right horizontal tail, up
> under the
> > chaff/flare bucket. A typical CSMU holds about twenty minutes worth
> of crash
> > data.
>
> Interesting...I went the the AF's jet engine accident investigation
> course at Sheppard in '95 and that's exactly what I was told (i.e. that
> they don't put FDRs on fighters because of the sensitive performance
> information). I fly the F-15E now and I'm pretty sure we don't have a
> FDR, but I wasn't aware of what the Viper had. I stand corrected.
>
That depends on where you fly... All new F-15E's rolling off the line
right now, as well as F-15I's and F-15S's have the Standardized Flight
Data Recorder installed. Older E models have the same Signal Data
Recorder installed in F-15A/B/C/D models, but as with those, only in
tail numbers ending in 0 or 5. This gives the required 20% fleet
sampling for the Aircraft Structural Integrity Program, looking at
structural stresses and such. E models however are getting retrofitted
with the new SFDR.. supposedly on the entire fleet, but realistically
only the ones with the old SDR are getting modified (money concerns.)
The new SFDR basically replaces the old mechanical recorders and
magnetic tape cartridges with all digital computers and data transfer
modules. It does have a Crash Survivable Memory Unit which I believe is
meant to hold the last 30 seconds of surface movements, limited engine
data, and fuel state.
--
Passmore
funkraum
# Dave Sutton dsu...@redstaraviation.org writes:
[...]
>I remember sitting in the squadron lounge at Holloman after the last
>sorties of the day had launched. Sipping a beer, I eavesdropped on a
>cluster of five new student IP candidates from the new class. They were
>gathered, drinking diet cokes and talking about mutual funds and
>annuities. What happened to fighter pilots clustering to swap lies about
>wars, and flying and female conquests?? I knew then that this ol'
>dinosaur was of a breed that was rapidly approaching extinction.
>
# I was at a military jet convention at Wright-Pat a month ago,
# and it being Friday night we decided to ring the club to see
# if they would put a case of Weed on ice for us before we arrived.
# Calling the club the conversation goes like this:
#
# Me: "Hi, we'd like to come on down and wonder if you'd freeze
# a case of Weed for us, we'd like to have it slushy so if you begin
# freezin' it now, by the time we get there we'll be all set".
#
# Club Manager: "I'm not sure what you are talking about".
#
# Me: "WEED. As in the Right Honorable Jeramiah Weed,
# our friend and dear companion. Freeze us up a case and
# we'll be there directly".
#
# Manager: "I'm not sure I understand".
#
# Now I take a moment to shake my head and begin to explain
# (after all this -is- Wright-Pat, not a fighter base, so they might
# be expected to be a little behind the times). I fail miserably
# and try another tack:
#
# Me: "So, well.... er. Hmmm. What's going on at the club tonight
# anyhow? It -is- a Friday, isn't it?"
#
# Manager: "You bet, well let's see: At 5:30 we are having Karioke,
# and at 8:00 we have Bingo".
#
# Me; (roaring with laughter).. "BINGO? You are playing fucking
# BINGO? HA! What a bunch of limp-wristed losers! You must
# be JOKING!. Sheesh!". Nearly speechless and laughing so hard
# I'm sure I almost cried. Bingo. Our best a brightest playing BINGO
# and singing Karioke on a Friday night. Suffice it to say we went
# elsewhere for our entertainment.
#
#
# I sure hope the other side (whoever this is these days)
# is entertaining themselves likewise. Otherwise we're going to
# get our ass kicked next time we come up against some real
# warriors on the real field of fun and games.
#
#
# Bingo on Fridays at the O-Club. How damned sad.
#
#
#
# Dave Sutton dsu...@redstaraviation.org
# MiG-17F 1C-1705 N1705
#
funkraum
>>>but I was taken by surprise by the "place
>>>yer lynch lid on the bar and ya better have yer VISA card handy"
>>>rule.
>>
>> Was surprised to see a local addition... Any Officer had to buy a round
>>if their spouse called the bar phone. One guy had really PO'd his wife.
>>She called about 5 times one night.
>
>Ah, now if we're getting into bar rules, that's a whole different ball
>game.
>
<bounds into life> Awwww... come on Ed: There are another -two-
chapters of the book in as many minutes: One on Fighter Pilot games
and then another on bar rules. You have this project in the bag
already.
So much for impassioned declamation: Let's have a go at stooping to
out-right bribery:
I'll lodge a bottle of the 25 year old Macallan, with an independent
third party of your choice, be they r.a.m denizen or otherwise (pref
non whisky drinker, as lets face it, every individual's integrity has
a limit somewhere) to be held in escrow and deliverable to yourself
the moment the publishers receive your draft.
What-say-you-sir ?
[...]
funkraum
>>Randy Haskin <str...@hotmail.com> wrote:
[...]
>>Where did the whole "Jeremiah Weed" thing come from? When I was out at
>>Nellis, the Weapons School guys told some tale about an F-4 crew
>>ejecting on the range and finding an old miner bar where all they
>>served was Jeremiah Weed. True?
>
>Think about it. Ever met an "old miner" who would even consider
>drinking something as sweet and effete as JW? Naahhh.
>
>Much more likely a drinking game conjured up as a likely way to
>lubricate a fighter pilot groupy or two. Embellish with a few lies
>about tradition and voila....
>
Surely this should be the easiest running-to-ground of an urban legend
ever ? We are looking for an F-4 crew wearing Martin-Baker ties.
Martin-Baker must record to whom their ties are issued, and we need
merely their co-operation in contacting all the F-4 crews who have
ejected over CONUS. If the crew comes forward, then they will be able
to corroborate their testimony by directing us to the locale of the
bar.
We might short circuit this inquiry by checking the share register of
the company which distills the Jeremiah Weed for any F-4 ejectees. . .
Viewed another way, the story fits quite well: If a bar had been drunk
dry, the very worst stuff would be left till last.
Continuing in the self-sacrificing spirit scientific enquiry for which
I am known . . . I decided to try some of the Weed, at room
temperature, in a whisky tumbler. Truly horrible. I'd rate it
somewhere below siphoning diesel using a length of garden hose.
BlackBeard
>SilverFox <clgarner...@quixnet.net.invalid> wrote:
>>Just stumbled into this site and this little discussion.
>snip;
> Way back when there used to be 3 ADC squadrons at atime deployed to
Tyndall for a month of
>missile and rocket firing. We played a dice-cup game called 7-11-21. Whoever
We just called this 'aces' here.
Ed Rasimus
><bounds into life> Awwww... come on Ed: There are another -two-
>chapters of the book in as many minutes: One on Fighter Pilot games
>and then another on bar rules. You have this project in the bag
>already.
>
>I'll lodge a bottle of the 25 year old Macallan, with an independent
>third party of your choice, be they r.a.m denizen or otherwise (pref
>non whisky drinker, as lets face it, every individual's integrity has
>a limit somewhere) to be held in escrow and deliverable to yourself
>the moment the publishers receive your draft.
>
>What-say-you-sir ?
That's the closest thing to an "advance" that I've yet seen.
Of course, not only are there the chapters on games and bar rules,
populated with some "unusual" suspects, there would also have to be a
section on the choir--possibly with excerpts from some of the more
bawdy songs, which would of course lead to a movie contract in which
my part would be played by Rickie Martin and the rest of the squadron
would be N'Sync.
Gordon
>That's the closest thing to an "advance" that I've yet seen.
>
>Of course, not only are there the chapters on games and bar rules,
>populated with some "unusual" suspects, there would also have to be a
>section on the choir--possibly with excerpts from some of the more
>bawdy songs, which would of course lead to a movie contract in which
>my part would be played by Rickie Martin and the rest of the squadron
>would be N'Sync.
> Ed Rasimus
Too bad William Holden isn't above ground and in his prime -- he's the one I'd
select to play the lead.
a
> Of course, not only are there the chapters on games and bar rules,
> populated with some "unusual" suspects, there would also have to be a
> section on the choir--possibly with excerpts from some of the more
> bawdy songs, which would of course lead to a movie contract in which
> my part would be played by Rickie Martin and the rest of the squadron
> would be N'Sync.
> Ed Rasimus
Ed, Ricky Martin is gay, he just has not admitted it yet. Anything you
would like to share with us ?
"How can you pick out the fighter pilot in a crowded room?"
"He will tell you"
Dale
wrote:
Along those same lines a former F4/F15 driver told me that some "fighter pilots"
aren't even pilots.
> You've got that wrong. Anyone who was in one of my squadrons will tell
> you that I always made the point that you're a "fighter pilot" when
> other people tell you. Until then you're a pilot that flies fighters.
--
Dale L. Falk
Cessna 182A
N5912B
Ed Rasimus
>Ed, Ricky Martin is gay, he just has not admitted it yet. Anything you
>would like to share with us ?
Or so Babah Wahwah would like to lead us to believe. Not that there's
anything wrong with that.
>
>"How can you pick out the fighter pilot in a crowded room?"
>
>"He will tell you"
You've got that wrong. Anyone who was in one of my squadrons will tell
you that I always made the point that you're a "fighter pilot" when
other people tell you. Until then you're a pilot that flies fighters.
Ed Rasimus
>Along those same lines a former F4/F15 driver told me that some "fighter pilots"
>aren't even pilots.
I'm not sure where he was going with that. If he was referring to
back-seaters/WSOs/bears then it's a bit of a stretch. Fighter-gators
should certainly be respected. They contribute a lot of skill and
expertise to mission accomplishment, but they shouldn't be referred to
as pilots. They aren't.
OTOH, there are some "fighter pilots" who, while pilots, aren't flying
fighters. In that vernacular, the term "fighter pilot" is an
attitude--a state of mind. It can be applied to pilots flying other
types of aircraft who know their system, achieve their mission,
instill confidence in their associates, and exhibit leadership.
The essence of the discussion is that "fighter pilot" isn't an
assignment or duty.
Dale
wrote:
> OTOH, there are some "fighter pilots" who, while pilots, aren't flying
> fighters. In that vernacular, the term "fighter pilot" is an
> attitude--a state of mind. It can be applied to pilots flying other
> types of aircraft who know their system, achieve their mission,
> instill confidence in their associates, and exhibit leadership.
Attitude is what he was talking about.
wal...@oneimage.com
>Dale <df...@NOSPAMak.net> wrote:>
>>Along those same lines a former F4/F15 driver told me that some "fighter pilots"
>>aren't even pilots.
>
>I'm not sure where he was going with that. If he was referring to
>back-seaters/WSOs/bears then it's a bit of a stretch. Fighter-gators
>should certainly be respected. They contribute a lot of skill and
>expertise to mission accomplishment, but they shouldn't be referred to
>as pilots. They aren't.
>
>fighters. In that vernacular, the term "fighter pilot" is an
>attitude--a state of mind. It can be applied to pilots flying other
>types of aircraft who know their system, achieve their mission,
>instill confidence in their associates, and exhibit leadership.
>assignment or duty.
>> Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (ret)
>
pilots who fly fighters but do not/can not/will not (pick one or more) earn
their pay as real fighter pilots. I ran into a few HHQ wienies who got the cheap
checkout but never filled a combat slot but sure wore the pin. Also in every
squadron you could generally find someone who was in there under false pretenses.
Generally they didn't stick around too long.
Walt Bj ftr plt ret
funkraum
>>Randy Haskin <str...@hotmail.com> wrote:
[...]
>>Where did the whole "Jeremiah Weed" thing come from? When I was out at
>>Nellis, the Weapons School guys told some tale about an F-4 crew
>>ejecting on the range and finding an old miner bar where all they
>>served was Jeremiah Weed. True?
>
>Think about it. Ever met an "old miner" who would even consider
>drinking something as sweet and effete as JW? Naahhh.
>
>Much more likely a drinking game conjured up as a likely way to
>lubricate a fighter pilot groupy or two. Embellish with a few lies
>about tradition and voila....
>
Of course one could always short-circuit the whole process by
insisting on tradition being adhered to the letter: That not a drop of
Jeremiah Weed be drunk until the bar has been drunk dry of single
malt. By which time one is unlikely to know the difference between a
Dutch roll and a Swiss roll, never mind the difference between whisky
and Weed, and therefore no hardship incurred . . .