I have some questions about 1941 airplanes

[Chris Tsao]

Hi, this post is about Stinson airplanes in the summer of 1941, so I
missed being on topic by a handful of months, but each and every time
I've posted on topic in here over the years I've gotten all of my
questions answered (for example, on September 19, 2008 at 4:35 am I
posted a question about Tinker Air Force Base in 1938, then at 5:13 am
two different people responded by telling me that Tinker Air Force
Base wasn't yet in existence) and I have a few questions that I need
to know for a book I'm working on. Thank you in advance.

How many G's would the pull-off of a 1941 Stinson plane be?

Please correct me if I am wrong. The pull-off of a Stinson plane that
was built in the early 1930s isn't the same as the pull-off of a 1941
Stinson plane?

Did they use the phrases "pull off," "ceiling" and "G's" or "G-force"
in the summer of 1941? I think "pull off" is a rather new term. If it
is, then can you please tell me how they would have worded it in the
middle of 1941?

In December 1941, how long did it take a big commercial passenger
airline to fly from Detroit Michigan to Oklahoma City?

[Bill Shatzer]

Chris Tsao wrote:


>
> In December 1941, how long did it take a big commercial passenger
> airline to fly from Detroit Michigan to Oklahoma City?

According to the 1941 American Airlines schedule, you could leave
Detroit on AA Flt 31 at 7:15 AM CST and arrive in Oklahoma City at 1:57
PM CST after intermediate stops at Chicago, St Louis, and Tulsa. With
allowance for the time change, say seven and three-quarters hours.

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/complete/aa41/aa41-4.jpg

[Daryl]

Danged, in 1971, in about 7 hours with a Police Cruiser. I
bought the car at auction. It was a really hot 1967 Police
Cruiser with low mileage. They were upgrading to 1972 Dodges
that were even hotter. The old Police Cruisers had to be able to
maintain 145 mph. So I averaged about 97 miles per hour. Cops
would see my short hair, black wall tires, 4 door Fury and just
waive.

I was doing a lot faster than 97 mph though but there were gas
stops. Fuel Efficient it wasn't. When I was running up and down
the east coast, I kept seeing a sign that said 95. That was the
speed limit, right?

Try that today. I did slow down anytime I crossed Ohio though.
They had no sense of humor at anything much above 69 mph.

Now, they have no sense of humor at all. But I drive electrics
and a big honkin RV that couldn't break the speed limit unless I
had a tanker truck attached to the ass end of it.


--
http://tvmoviesforfree.com
for free movies and Nostalgic TV. Tons of Military shows and
programs.

[kirk....@gmail.com]

What kind of Stinson? Google "Stinson Airplane Company" and you will see that there were several kinds, everything from small planes to airliners.

And what do you mean by "pull off"? Ceiling refers (and did back in 1940) to how high a plane can climb. "G's" and "G-force" are also common aviation terms, broadly relating to the strength and performance of the planes in question. But I've never seen "pull off" used, other than in the context of "pull off the cowling" or "pull off the mixture".

What exactly are you trying to determine?

Kirk

[o...@two.three]

On Sat, 28 Jul 2012 16:41:53 +0100, kirk....@gmail.com wrote
(in article <553308c7-e60d-4d9a...@googlegroups.com>):

> And what do you mean by "pull off"? Ceiling refers (and did back in 1940) to
> how high a plane can climb. "G's" and "G-force" are also common aviation
> terms, broadly relating to the strength and performance of the planes in
> question. But I've never seen "pull off" used, other than in the context of
> "pull off the cowling" or "pull off the mixture".

Perhaps it's an early reference to the Mile High Club.

[Daryl]

That would be Pull up, push down :)

[Chris Tsao]

Whew, thanks. After I posted I figured out that I was going to have to maybe find out somehow how far Detroit is from Oklahoma City and then find out how many miles per hour an airliner travelled back then and multiply it by the distance.

[Chris Tsao]

On Saturday, July 28, 2012 11:41:53 AM UTC-4, kirk....@gmail.com wrote:
> What kind of Stinson? Google "Stinson Airplane Company" and you will see that there were several kinds, everything from small planes to airliners.

Any small Stinson plane that was around back then will do. Around three years ago, my friend who's a pilot wrote this dialogue below for the book I'm writing and he mentioned a Stinson. He didn't say what kind, but it hasn't been established in the book what kind, so it doesn't really matter.

> And what do you mean by "pull off"? Ceiling refers (and did back in 1940) to how high a plane can climb. "G's" and "G-force" are also common aviation terms, broadly relating to the strength and performance of the planes in question. But I've never seen "pull off" used, other than in the context of "pull off the cowling" or "pull off the mixture".

Okie-doke thanks. On that account, I will have a character ask: "How many Gs does it pull?"

>
>
> What exactly are you trying to determine?

This is for a graphic novel. There's a scene where there's a boy in a small airport listening to a pilot in a Stinson airplane speak to a mechanic at the airport and so I need to think up a few questions for the boy to ask the mechanic in order to show that (1) the boy is an airplane enthusiast, (2) a bit annoying and (3) not too bright. I was hoping that the term "Gs" was already in use in the summer of 1941.


PILOT: (over the radio) (jagged bubble) Lakeside base, Stinson seven one four seven bravo, how do you read?

Panel . The man speaking while he's pressing the transmitter button on the microphone.

MAN : Stinson seven one four seven bravo, read you loud and clear.

PILOT: (jagged bubble) Four seven bravo is uhhh ... we're uhh approximately 20 southwest of the field; request fuel service.

Panel . The man speaking while he's pressing the transmitter button on the microphone.

MAN: Four seven bravo, we can accommodate that.

PILOT: (jagged bubble) Roger Lakeside. Four seven bravo will be wheels-down in two-zero minutes.

Panel . The man speaking while he's pressing the transmitter button on the microphone.

MAN: Four seven bravo, Lakeside, we'll have somebody standing by for your arrival.

PILOT: (jagged bubble) We'll see you soon. Four seven bravo.

[Chris Tsao]

I forgot to mention that it's a small Stinson plane. One that is either from the 1930s to 1941.

[kirk....@gmail.com]

On Sunday, July 29, 2012 7:34:29 PM UTC-5, Chris Tsao wrote:

> > Okie-doke thanks. On that account, I will have a character ask: "How many Gs does it pull?"

Well, the correct syntax would be "How many Gs CAN it pull?" But a kid would be more likely to ask "how fast can it go?" and "how high can it fly?".

Kirk

[Daryl]

It's about 640 miles. With all the stop involved, it figures to
be about an average of 92 mph. But when you figure in the stops,
it had to be well over 125 mph.

[Chris Tsao]

> Kirko

Thank you. This is perfect. I will have one question be How many Gs can it pull and the other How high can it fly and probably How fast can it go. This way, the boy can show that he knows a little something about airplane jargon. I wasn't too crazy about the word "ceiling."

[Chris Tsao]

Yep, stops. That didn't occur to me. I haven't been on an airplane in 26 years.

[Diogenes]

On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 17:34:29 -0700 (PDT), Chris Tsao
<rigid...@aol.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, July 29, 2012 8:33:01 PM UTC-4, Chris Tsao wrote:
>> On Saturday, July 28, 2012 11:41:53 AM UTC-4, kirk....@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> > What kind of Stinson? Google "Stinson Airplane Company" and you will see that there were several kinds, everything from small planes to airliners.
>>
>>
>>
>> Any small Stinson plane that was around back then will do. Around three years ago, my friend who's a pilot wrote this dialogue below for the book I'm writing and he mentioned a Stinson. He didn't say what kind, but it hasn't been established in the book what kind, so it doesn't really matter.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > And what do you mean by "pull off"? Ceiling refers (and did back in 1940) to how high a plane can climb. "G's" and "G-force" are also common aviation terms, broadly relating to the strength and performance of the planes in question. But I've never seen "pull off" used, other than in the context of "pull off the cowling" or "pull off the mixture".
>>
>>
>>
>> Okie-doke thanks. On that account, I will have a character ask: "How many Gs does it pull?"
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> > What exactly are you trying to determine?
>>
>>
>>
>> This is for a graphic novel. There's a scene where there's a boy in a small airport listening to a pilot in a Stinson airplane speak to a mechanic at the airport and so I need to think up a few questions for the boy to ask the mechanic in order to show that (1) the boy is an airplane enthusiast, (2) a bit annoying and (3) not too bright. I was hoping that the term "Gs" was already in use in the summer of 1941.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> PILOT: (over the radio) (jagged bubble) Lakeside base, Stinson seven one four seven bravo, how do you read?

The phonetic alphabet word 'Bravo' for the letter 'B' was not adopted
by the ICAO (International Commission for Air Navigation) until
1951,at which time it came into use for civil aviation in the U.S.
This alphabet was further revised in 1956.

In 1932 the International Commission for Air Navigation (predecessor
of the ICAO) adopted the International Telecommunications Union (ITU)
alphabet. The ITU phonetic word for 'B' was "Baltimore".

During WWII the U.S. military alphabet came into frequent use in civil
aviation, and the phonetic word for 'B' was "Baker."

You can probably get away with using "Baker" in 1941 and no one will
notice, but "Bravo" would stick out like a sore thumb.

>> Panel . The man speaking while he's pressing the transmitter button on the microphone.
>>
>>
>>
>> MAN : Stinson seven one four seven bravo, read you loud and clear.
>>
>>
>>
>> PILOT: (jagged bubble) Four seven bravo is uhhh ... we're uhh approximately 20 southwest of the field; request fuel service.
>>
>>
>>
>> Panel . The man speaking while he's pressing the transmitter button on the microphone.
>>
>>
>>
>> MAN: Four seven bravo, we can accommodate that.
>>
>>
>>
>> PILOT: (jagged bubble) Roger Lakeside. Four seven bravo will be wheels-down in two-zero minutes.
>>
>>
>>
>> Panel . The man speaking while he's pressing the transmitter button on the microphone.
>>
>>
>>
>> MAN: Four seven bravo, Lakeside, we'll have somebody standing by for your arrival.
>>
>>
>>
>> PILOT: (jagged bubble) We'll see you soon. Four seven bravo.
>
>I forgot to mention that it's a small Stinson plane. One that is either from the 1930s to 1941.

----
Diogenes

The wars are long, the peace is frail
The madmen come again . . . .

[Chris Tsao]

On Sunday, July 29, 2012 10:49:22 PM UTC-4, Diogenes wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 17:34:29 -0700 (PDT), Chris Tsao
>
> <rigid...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> >On Sunday, July 29, 2012 8:33:01 PM UTC-4, Chris Tsao wrote:
>
> >> On Saturday, July 28, 2012 11:41:53 AM UTC-4, kirk....@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >> > What kind of Stinson? Google "Stinson Airplane Company" and you will see that there were several kinds, everything from small planes to airliners.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Any small Stinson plane that was around back then will do. Around three years ago, my friend who's a pilot wrote this dialogue below for the book I'm writing and he mentioned a Stinson. He didn't say what kind, but it hasn't been established in the book what kind, so it doesn't really matter.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> > And what do you mean by "pull off"? Ceiling refers (and did back in 1940) to how high a plane can climb. "G's" and "G-force" are also common aviation terms, broadly relating to the strength and performance of the planes in question. But I've never seen "pull off" used, other than in the context of "pull off the cowling" or "pull off the mixture".
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Okie-doke thanks. On that account, I will have a character ask: "How many Gs does it pull?"
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> >
>
> >>
>
> >> >
>
> >>
>
> >> > What exactly are you trying to determine?
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> This is for a graphic novel. There's a scene where there's a boy in a small airport listening to a pilot in a Stinson airplane speak to a mechanic at the airport and so I need to think up a few questions for the boy to ask the mechanic in order to show that (1) the boy is an airplane enthusiast, (2) a bit annoying and (3) not too bright. I was hoping that the term "Gs" was already in use in the summer of 1941.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> PILOT: (over the radio) (jagged bubble) Lakeside base, Stinson seven one four seven bravo, how do you read?
>
>
>
> The phonetic alphabet word 'Bravo' for the letter 'B' was not adopted
>
> by the ICAO (International Commission for Air Navigation) until
>
> 1951,at which time it came into use for civil aviation in the U.S.
>
> This alphabet was further revised in 1956.
>
>
>
> In 1932 the International Commission for Air Navigation (predecessor
>
> of the ICAO) adopted the International Telecommunications Union (ITU)
>
> alphabet. The ITU phonetic word for 'B' was "Baltimore".
>
>
>
> During WWII the U.S. military alphabet came into frequent use in civil
>
> aviation, and the phonetic word for 'B' was "Baker."
>
>
>
> You can probably get away with using "Baker" in 1941 and no one will
>
> notice, but "Bravo" would stick out like a sore thumb.

Thank you, thank you.

[David E. Powell]

G-Force probably not. That's pretty new as far as I know, at least
newer than the early 1940s as far as popular use. Terms that might
have been used then? Centripital Force, maybe. Aerodynamic Stress
might be another.

I wish a friend of my Uncle's was still around, I'd have pointed you
in his direction, he flew planes of that era on demonstrations and
stunt routines.

Call me crazy but see if you can track down a movie called "Dive
Bomber" with Errol Flynn, it was made around that time and the jargon
of experimental flight at the time was pretty well used in it.

[Keith W]

Chris Tsao wrote:
> On Saturday, July 28, 2012 11:41:53 AM UTC-4, kirk....@gmail.com
> wrote:
>> What kind of Stinson? Google "Stinson Airplane Company" and you will
>> see that there were several kinds, everything from small planes to
>> airliners.
>
> Any small Stinson plane that was around back then will do. Around
> three years ago, my friend who's a pilot wrote this dialogue below
> for the book I'm writing and he mentioned a Stinson. He didn't say
> what kind, but it hasn't been established in the book what kind, so
> it doesn't really matter.
>
>
>> And what do you mean by "pull off"? Ceiling refers (and did back in
>> 1940) to how high a plane can climb. "G's" and "G-force" are also
>> common aviation terms, broadly relating to the strength and
>> performance of the planes in question. But I've never seen "pull
>> off" used, other than in the context of "pull off the cowling" or
>> "pull off the mixture".
>
> Okie-doke thanks. On that account, I will have a character ask: "How
> many Gs does it pull?"
>

For a Stinson L-5 in 1941 this is anachronistic. The L-5 had no gee meter,
they were typically fitted to high performance fighters such as the P-51
and bombers but light aircraft like the Stinson would not have them

The standard panel had few instruments, a compass, airspeed indicator,
altimeter, tachometer, oil pressure gauge, oil temperature guage, fuel
supply guage
turn and bank indicator and ammeter were about it.

Keith

[Bob McKellar]

wrote in message
news:73a40049-423e-4ced...@googlegroups.com...

I have spent a number of days displaying gliders at air shows. Every kid
asks "How fast can it go?". Since these were gliders, the answer always
disappointed the kids. I got even by telling them the pitot tube in the
middle of the nose was "the gun".

Longer conversations contained "How high can it go?" followed by "How far?"
The rather vague answers usually ended the discussion. If you had a real
live one you finally got "How much does it cost?"

But my alltime favorite was "Do real people fly these things?"

Bob McKellar

[kirk....@gmail.com]

On Monday, July 30, 2012 6:56:19 AM UTC-5, Keith W wrote:

For a Stinson L-5 in 1941 this is anachronistic. The L-5 had no gee meter, they were typically fitted to high performance fighters such as the P-51 and bombers but light aircraft like the Stinson would not have them The standard panel had few instruments, a compass, airspeed indicator, altimeter, tachometer, oil pressure gauge, oil temperature guage, fuel supply guage turn and bank indicator and ammeter were about it. Keith

Even the P-51 didn't have a g-meter, as far as I can tell. And I doubt any bomber had one!

Looking at my copy of the P-51D pilot's manual (1945 edition), there is no mention of the G envelope. It may have been in a more detailed airplane performance chart (probably as a V-G diagram) but back then (pre-G-suit) it was pretty hard to break a fighter!

When the first G-suits were introduced in 1945 (I think), I've read stories of how pilots began bringing their Mustangs home with more dihedral than they started with.

Without a G-suit, pulling over 6-7 G's is work, and the planes of the day would lose so much energy that you just couldn't break them unless you dived to Vne and used a two-handed pull!

G-meters probably came into use with the first jets.

Kirk

[Keith W]

kirk....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, July 30, 2012 6:56:19 AM UTC-5, Keith W wrote:
>
> For a Stinson L-5 in 1941 this is anachronistic. The L-5 had no gee
> meter, they were typically fitted to high performance fighters such
> as the P-51 and bombers but light aircraft like the Stinson would not
> have them The standard panel had few instruments, a compass, airspeed
> indicator, altimeter, tachometer, oil pressure gauge, oil temperature
> guage, fuel supply guage turn and bank indicator and ammeter were
> about it. Keith
>
> Even the P-51 didn't have a g-meter, as far as I can tell. And I
> doubt any bomber had one!
>

Some late models seem to have had one but I think it was
pretty unusual.

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/wwii-military-fighter-aircraft-p51-jaeger-g-meter
http://dw.squawk1200.net/p-51-mustang.html


Keith

[Jim Wilkins]

"Bob McKellar" <b...@coastcomp.com> wrote in message
news:jv6b34$u56$1...@dont-email.me...

>
> But my alltime favorite was "Do real people fly these things?"
>
> Bob McKellar

"We buried Uncle Ernie last week"

"Oh, did he die?"

[Mark Sieving]

On Monday, July 30, 2012 10:59:46 AM UTC-5, kirk....@gmail.com wrote:

> Without a G-suit, pulling over 6-7 G's is work,
> and the planes of the day would lose so much
> energy that you just couldn't break them unless
> you dived to Vne and used a two-handed pull!

According to Mike Crosley's book "And They Gave Me A Seafire", the Seafire III could pull enough Gs to shear the bolts holding the folding wing in place. He said they had multiple planes come home with bolts partially sheared, and claimed that most of the planes allegedly lost to anti-aircraft fire probably had structural failure pulling out of dives during airfield attacks.

[Daryl]

He was flying the B and then the D. When flying the D, he
referred to the ones he didn't fly as "Later Models". That would
have been the H model just taking what he said. And the H was a
pretty short lived bird since it really couldn't be used for
anything other than Air Defense off of Improved Runways. In
Korea, they had to scrape together all the D models they could find.

The H was lighter than the D, had more power and it could shank
the mare better. But it was fragile in comparison. Looks that
was the first bird that really needed a G meter. Not to prevent
the pilot from blacking out but to prevent the bird from folding
in half. Of course, it was also the first to be able to do both.

[Keith W]

Daryl wrote:
> On 7/30/2012 11:44 AM, Keith W wrote:
>> kirk....@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Monday, July 30, 2012 6:56:19 AM UTC-5, Keith W wrote:
>>>
>>> For a Stinson L-5 in 1941 this is anachronistic. The L-5 had no gee
>>> meter, they were typically fitted to high performance fighters such
>>> as the P-51 and bombers but light aircraft like the Stinson would
>>> not have them The standard panel had few instruments, a compass,
>>> airspeed indicator, altimeter, tachometer, oil pressure gauge, oil
>>> temperature guage, fuel supply guage turn and bank indicator and
>>> ammeter were about it. Keith
>>>
>>> Even the P-51 didn't have a g-meter, as far as I can tell. And I
>>> doubt any bomber had one!
>>>
>>
>> Some late models seem to have had one but I think it was
>> pretty unusual.
>>
>> http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/wwii-military-fighter-aircraft-p51-jaeger-g-meter
>> http://dw.squawk1200.net/p-51-mustang.html
>
> He was flying the B and then the D. When flying the D, he
> referred to the ones he didn't fly as "Later Models". That would
> have been the H model just taking what he said. And the H was a
> pretty short lived bird since it really couldn't be used for
> anything other than Air Defense off of Improved Runways. In
> Korea, they had to scrape together all the D models they could find.
>

One of the referefences I saw referred to a late model D having a
gee meter.


Keith

[Peter Stickney]

"Expect so, he hasn't been back yet."

--
Pete Stickney
Failure is not an option
It comes bundled with the system