Volksjaeger vs Tempest...
Rob Arndt
Tempest of 222 Squadron. Leutnant Gerhard Steimer wrote:
We took off from the concrete runway in Leck, Kirchner (Fhj.Fw Günther
Kirchner) stayed 30 metres behind me on my right side as usual;... We
climbed up to about 200 metres, when suddenly two Thunderbolts
appeared behind us and instantly shot down Günther Kirchner's plane. I
saw him jettison canopy and catapult[33] but his parachute did not
deploy. I was very lucky that the Thunderbolts did not press on with
another attack.[34]
The times and heights of the combat match closely with an account by
Flight Lieutenant G. Walkington of 222 Squadron who reported shooting
down an unusual looking German aircraft while out on an armed
reconnaissance in the area. At times the blunt-nosed, elliptical-wing
Tempests were misidentified as Thunderbolts. This was the first loss
of an He 162 in combat.
Walkington's Tempest was a Tempest V (sn185).
But then again the He-162s fought back and scored at least one
confirmed Tempest kill and maybe 1 more:
1----Feb. 45----Lechfeld-----OT Ihlefeld------(P51?)-----eyewitness:
Fw. Sell*
2----19.4.45---north.germ.-Fw. G. Kirchner-(P47)------only confirmed
posthum.
3----26.4.45---north.germ-Uffz. Rechenberg-(Tempest/Typhoon)--
eyewitness: Ol. Demuth, StInt. Siegfried**
4----2.5.45----north.germ.-?----------------(Tempest/Typhoon)----
(probably identical with #3)
5----4.5.45----north.germ.-Lt. Schmitt-----(Tempest)---***also claimed
by AA
6----21.4.45----central germ-Dickfeld -----(P47)----------136th kill
of A. Dickfeld
7----22.4.45----central germ-W.Batz-------(P47)----------no data
avaiable
*) while practicing training flights
**) entry in flightlog: "effectively shot" this leaves questions open
***) british sources rate it as loss due to jet fighter
Rob
guy
hmmm intersting stuff, I sometimes wonder about aircraft recognition,
at least the Tempest and Thunderbolt had similar wing planforms, The
Typhoon was regularly mistaken for an Fw-190!
Guy
Rob Arndt
> On 15 Dec, 16:58, Rob Arndt <teuton...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 19 April at least one He 162 of 3./JG1 fell victim to a Hawker
> > Tempest of 222 Squadron. Leutnant Gerhard Steimer wrote:
>
> > Kirchner) stayed 30 metres behind me on my right side as usual;... We
> > climbed up to about 200 metres, when suddenly two Thunderbolts
>
> - Show quoted text -
The P-51 head-on looks a lot like a Me Bf 109 :)
Rob
guy
>
> - Show quoted text -
Did Arts' tail gunner not make that mistake?
Guy
Robert Sveinson
"guy" <guyswe...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:cb2578ea-ef9d-40ac...@k24g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
hmmm intersting stuff, I sometimes wonder about aircraft recognition,
at least the Tempest and Thunderbolt had similar wing planforms, The
Typhoon was regularly mistaken for an Fw-190!
And that problem was sufficiently serious
that the RAF painted black and white stripes
much the same as the D-DAY stripe pattern
on all Typhoons
Guy
Bill Shatzer
Similarly, white stripes(1) got painted on the wings and tail surfaces
of P-51s because of supposed confusion between the Mustangs and Bf 109s.
Aircraft ID was not anyone's strong suit.
(1) Later black stripes on uncamouflaged, bare metal aircraft.
Geoffrey Sinclair
news:80552391-c322-46a0...@a29g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
> On 19 April at least one He 162 of 3./JG1 fell victim to a Hawker
> Tempest of 222 Squadron. Leutnant Gerhard Steimer wrote:
(snip)
> But then again the He-162s fought back and scored at least one
> confirmed Tempest kill and maybe 1 more:
> 1----Feb. 45----Lechfeld-----OT Ihlefeld------(P51?)-----eyewitness:
> Fw. Sell*
> 2----19.4.45---north.germ.-Fw. G. Kirchner-(P47)------only confirmed
> posthum.
> 3----26.4.45---north.germ-Uffz. Rechenberg-(Tempest/Typhoon)--
> eyewitness: Ol. Demuth, StInt. Siegfried**
The RAF lost 4 Typhoons and 1 Tempest on operations that day, the
Tempest to Flak, 2 Typhoons to flak, one to engine failure and one from
hitting trees.
> 4----2.5.45----north.germ.-?----------------(Tempest/Typhoon)----
> (probably identical with #3)
1 Tempest and 1 Typhoon lost, both to flak.
> 5----4.5.45----north.germ.-Lt. Schmitt-----(Tempest)---***also claimed
> by AA
1 Typhoon to flak, 1 Tempest to engine failure, with the note this seems
to be claimed by an He162 pilot. The Tempest JN877 came down near
Satrup, near the Danish/German border according to Fighter Command
Losses or Barsinghausen according to Fighter Command War Diaries, the
He162 pilot reported the combat at Barsinghausen, which is near Hannover.
Unless there is smaller place in Germany also called Barsinghausen.
Note by 4 May the front line was well beyond Hannover which was
captured on 10 April, it was in fact beyond Hamburg, captured on 3 May.
> 6----21.4.45----central germ-Dickfeld -----(P47)----------136th kill
> of A. Dickfeld
> 7----22.4.45----central germ-W.Batz-------(P47)----------no data
> avaiable
> *) while practicing training flights
> **) entry in flightlog: "effectively shot" this leaves questions open
> ***) british sources rate it as loss due to jet fighter
Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
Gordon
wrote:
> "Rob Arndt" <teuton...@aol.com> wrote in message
None of these German He 162 claims appear in wartime documents (our
side or theirs - Abschuss reports, daily reports, or any other
documentation), or in ULTRA decrypts, meaning the victories weren't
reported to the German chain of command - some of these claims were
not reported until the last few years, as aging pilot's memories
improved. Occam's Razor.
v/r Gordon
Rob Arndt
>
> - Show quoted text -
What Gordon conveniently fails to address in his post is that the
German claims process had ceased months before the war ended.
In "World War Two Fighting Jets" by Ethell & Price, they mention the
following:
"19th April 1945 - unknown He162 pilot credited with the type's first
aerial victory. The 2nd Tactical Air Force lost a number of aircraft
over enemy territory on that day and from British records it is not
possible to confirm nor refute the claim that one of them was shot
down by a He162."
"April 26th 1945 - Unteroffizier Rechenbach was credited with the
destruction of an unspecified enemy aircraft and his victory was
confirmed by at least two independent witnesses. Again, this was a day
when the 2nd Tactical Air Force lost several aircraft over enemy
territory and the claim cannot be confirmed or refuted by from British
records"
"4th May 1945 - Rudolf Schmitt claimed the destruction of a Typhoon
near Rostock, and this time there is clear verification of the victory
from British records. The 'Typhoon' was in fact a Tempest of No.486
Squadron piloted by Flying Officer M Austin, who parachuted to safety
and was taken prisoner."
Sources of these claims are not included within the book... but
Flugzeug Magazine DID publish copies of one of the He-162 pilot's
Flugbuch with written action against an RAF a/c, so we know for a fact
that at least he engaged. Whether or not the a/c (mistaken as a
Typhoon) was shot down or not is unknown, but co-claimed by German
Flak...
The problem is not with the claims, but with the total failure of the
process in early 1945 for reporting these actions. Most agree that the
He-162 at the very least has one confirmed kill and probably maybe 3-4
more in all the confusion. Highest range is 5-8 claims. Nothing
extraordinary.
There are more false Allied claims to German jets than by German jets
against Allied a/c!
Rob
p.s. That Typhoon/Tempest also might have been a mistaken P-47... but
that's another argument altogether ;)
Geoffrey Sinclair
On Dec 16, 8:28?am, Gordon <Gor...@oldboldpilots.org> wrote:
(snip)
> > None of these German ?He 162 claims appear in wartime documents
>> (our side or theirs - Abschuss reports, daily reports, or any other
>> documentation), or in ULTRA decrypts, meaning the victories weren't
>> reported to the German chain of command - some of these claims were
>> not reported until the last few years, as aging pilot's memories
>> improved. Occam's Razor.
>
> v/r Gordon
> What Gordon conveniently fails to address in his post is that the
> German claims process had ceased months before the war ended.
So let me understand this, the claims process had ended months
before the end of the war but you want to believe German kill
claims, despite there being no process to check them. Is that it?
By the way check out the Me262 book I mentioned, it includes
information from Ultra, the allies were quite careful to track the
German jet units and they kept faithfully reporting their activities
until the end. This is a good reason why people have reservations
about the claims.
> In "World War Two Fighting Jets" by Ethell & Price, they mention the
> following:
> "19th April 1945 - unknown He162 pilot credited with the type's first
> aerial victory. The 2nd Tactical Air Force lost a number of aircraft
> over enemy territory on that day and from British records it is not
> possible to confirm nor refute the claim that one of them was shot
> down by a He162."
RAF losses 1 Typhoon, 10 Spitfires, 2 Tempests, 1 Mustang.
The Mustang was an anti shipping strike escort and ended up in
Sweden. The Tempests, Typhoon and 6 Spitfires shot down by
Flak, 1 Spitfire had engine failure, 2 were lost in combat with
Fw190s and 1 was "shot down in flames". At two of the Spitfires
made it back to allied lines before being abandoned.
The claimed location and time of the combat would really help,
but I gather all that is available is a claim of a kill, no other details.
> "April 26th 1945 - Unteroffizier Rechenbach was credited with the
> destruction of an unspecified enemy aircraft and his victory was
> confirmed by at least two independent witnesses. Again, this was a day
> when the 2nd Tactical Air Force lost several aircraft over enemy
> territory and the claim cannot be confirmed or refuted by from British
> records"
As noted in my previous reply,
The RAF lost 4 Typhoons and 1 Tempest on operations that day, the
Tempest to Flak, 2 Typhoons to flak, one to engine failure and one from
hitting trees.
> "4th May 1945 - Rudolf Schmitt claimed the destruction of a Typhoon
> near Rostock, and this time there is clear verification of the victory
> from British records. The 'Typhoon' was in fact a Tempest of No.486
> Squadron piloted by Flying Officer M Austin, who parachuted to safety
> and was taken prisoner."
Now we have a third location for this combat, Rostock, not Satrup near
the German/Danish border, not Barsinghausen, which is near Hannover.
Unless there is smaller place in Germany also called Barsinghausen.
The way it keeps moving location is not a good sign of accuracy.
> Sources of these claims are not included within the book... but
> Flugzeug Magazine DID publish copies of one of the He-162 pilot's
> Flugbuch with written action against an RAF a/c, so we know for a fact
> that at least he engaged. Whether or not the a/c (mistaken as a
> Typhoon) was shot down or not is unknown, but co-claimed by German
> Flak...
I presume this is supposed to relate to the 4th of May.
> The problem is not with the claims, but with the total failure of the
> process in early 1945 for reporting these actions.
Except for the daily report which the allies could decode. The lack
of documentation on both sides, not just the German side is an
obstacle, allied pilots would certainly report a strange new aircraft if
they saw it, and fighters travel around in numbers.
> Most agree that the
> He-162 at the very least has one confirmed kill and probably maybe 3-4
> more in all the confusion. Highest range is 5-8 claims. Nothing
> extraordinary.
Except the cross check with allied records says it is a possibility, nothing
more than that and I note the 5 to 8 claims is assuming all the German
reports are correct.
> There are more false Allied claims to German jets than by German jets
> against Allied a/c!
Oh good, please provide the evidence for this. Like number of German jets
actually shot down versus allied kill claims.
> p.s. That Typhoon/Tempest also might have been a mistaken P-47... but
> that's another argument altogether ;)
Except by that stage the USAAF was staying out of the 2nd TAF area.