NATOvs.SERBIA
Igor Miskovic
FWD FROM PROFESSOR RAJU THOMAS, MARQUETTE UNIVERSITY, MILWAUKEE, WI
Just for Record:
The US is violating a number of international laws in attacking Serbia
over Kosovo which is part of a sovereign independent state.
(1) It is a violation of Article 2 of the UN Charter that prohibits the
use of force against a sovereign state where it has not committed
aggression on other states. Serbia did not attack any neighboring states
outside its sovereign borders. The Security Council did not sanction the use
of force here. If the issue had been submitted to the Security Council, it
would certainly have been vetoed by Russia and China. NATO knows it and
therefore bypassed it.
(2) It is a violation of Nato's own charter which claims it is a defensive
organizations and is only committed to force if one of its members is
attacked. No member of NATO was attacked.
(3) The so-called Rambouillet "Agreement" (there was no "agreement" by
Serbia ) is a violation of the 1980 Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties
which forbids coercion and force to compel any state to sign a treaty or
agreement. Serbia is being asked to sign this "Agreement" through NATO bombs
and missiles.
(4) It is a violation of the Helsinki Accords Final Act of 1975 which
guarantees the territorial frontiers of the states of Europe. What this
so-called peace plan offers is (a) the severance of Kosovo through NATO
bombing with immediate effect; or (b) the severance of Kosovo through NATO
occupation three years later.
(5) If the sequel to the bombing is recognition of Kosovo as an independent
state, this will violate international law that prohibits recognition of
provinces that unilaterally declare independence against the wishes of the
federal authorities.
These unlawful actions will set precedents that will undermine stability
elsewhere in the world.
Raju G. C. Thomas
March 24, 1999
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
----------------
George C. Thomas (Raju)
2231 W. Appletree Road, Glendale, WI 53209-3309
Tel: (414) 351-3699; 351-0629
Email: gcth...@ameritech.net
Lorne D. Gilsig
Call a cop Igor. Get an attorney and sue the pants off Nato.
Lorne
Ross Montante
international relations in college is that international law gets
broken all the time, and most of the time, there isn't anything anyone
can do about it. Power decides when laws are enforced and when they
are not in the international system. That's the way it is. Live with
it.
Ross
Ross M.
RedFlowerChick
In addition, note that the UN is working with countries external to the
conflict (NATO & Serbo-Russian axis nations) to make ammendments to
UN-sponsored international laws and charters to reflect the chain of events
in Kosovo. Namely, to ensure ethnic/cultural/religious populations within a
nation's boundaries cannot suffer human rights abuse or persecution while
the parent country states intervention cannot occur due to "sovereignty
violations".
So, Igor ... note that ethnic cleansing, rape, crimes of hate, etc. *WILL*
not be tolerated by the international community just because Slobodan thinks
Serb boundary-markers make him safe. In addition, Slobo's actions have
caused a mass exodus of his own citizens into neighboring countries to seek
refuge. By doing so, they are destabilizing the economies and social
structures of these nations. In essence, his abuse of the Kosovars has
*OFFICIALLY* become *****EUROPE's***** problem, not Serbia's. Where there
is a European military problem (yes, military, Slobo's troops are to blame
for this as well), there is a NATO involvement. Hence, Slobo is now
suffering the consequences of his destabilization of the Balkans.
Igor, I hope to God you respond back to this message. I have a feeling you
will not. Also, feel free to check the media coverage in countries such as
India, South Africa, and Argentina concerning their governments and medias
outlook on the conflict. These are all non-aligned nations with no
involvement or interest in Kosovo. See what their agencies have come with
and how they feel about Serbia's actions. It will be a sobering affair for
you, Igor. Get your blinders off and see reality for what it is.
Ross Montante wrote in message <3730a789...@news.duke.edu>...
Bossman
On Wed, 05 May 1999 19:46:46 GMT, "Igor Miskovic"
<mi...@attcanada.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>FWD FROM PROFESSOR RAJU THOMAS, MARQUETTE UNIVERSITY, MILWAUKEE, WI
>Just for Record:
>
>The US is violating a number of international laws in attacking Serbia
>over Kosovo which is part of a sovereign independent state.
>
>(1) It is a violation of Article 2 of the UN Charter that prohibits the
>use of force against a sovereign state where it has not committed
>aggression on other states. Serbia did not attack any neighboring states
>outside its sovereign borders. The Security Council did not sanction the use
>of force here. If the issue had been submitted to the Security Council, it
>would certainly have been vetoed by Russia and China. NATO knows it and
>therefore bypassed it.
And, by avoiding the UN vote, the Chinese and the Russians are
privately thanking us for saving them from public embarrassment. Do
you hear any 'official' statements from either of these countries
supporting the atrocities in Kosova?
>(2) It is a violation of Nato's own charter which claims it is a defensive
>organizations and is only committed to force if one of its members is
>attacked. No member of NATO was attacked.
It would have been a violation of human sensibility to accept the
alternative.
>(3) The so-called Rambouillet "Agreement" (there was no "agreement" by
>Serbia ) is a violation of the 1980 Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties
>which forbids coercion and force to compel any state to sign a treaty or
>agreement. Serbia is being asked to sign this "Agreement" through NATO bombs
>and missiles.
Rambouillet, coercion?...Slobo was looking for a regionally if not
internationally endorsed solution to 'his' problem with 'his' people.
>(4) It is a violation of the Helsinki Accords Final Act of 1975 which
>guarantees the territorial frontiers of the states of Europe. What this
>so-called peace plan offers is (a) the severance of Kosovo through NATO
>bombing with immediate effect; or (b) the severance of Kosovo through NATO
>occupation three years later.
Well, it is a little early to be speaking about severance...
>(5) If the sequel to the bombing is recognition of Kosovo as an independent
>state, this will violate international law that prohibits recognition of
>provinces that unilaterally declare independence against the wishes of the
>federal authorities.
If wishes were horses...
>These unlawful actions will set precedents that will undermine stability
>elsewhere in the world.
>
>Raju G. C. Thomas
>
>March 24, 1999
>Milwaukee, Wisconsin
>
>----------------
>George C. Thomas (Raju)
>2231 W. Appletree Road, Glendale, WI 53209-3309
>Tel: (414) 351-3699; 351-0629
>Email: gcth...@ameritech.net
>
>
>
>
Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.
Correct return address is mitc...@image-link.com
Roman Ratkin
Lorne D. Gilsig пишет в сообщении <3730A4EF...@mediaone.net> ...
>Igor,
>
>Call a cop Igor. Get an attorney and sue the pants off Nato.
>
>Lorne
>
You so brave!
Do you have a children? Have a home?
Do you remember about Russian nuclear missiles, and communist Russian
Parlament?
You so brave...
Roman Ratkin.
Matt Clark
--
Matt Clark
Technical Lead
Renaissance Worldwide, Inc
(309) 751-1537
BShimp3003
>Do you have a children? Have a home?
>Do you remember about Russian nuclear missiles, and communist Russian
>Parlament?
>You so brave...
>
>Roman Ratkin.
I'm not quite sure what was meant by that... and I'm not sure I care anyway...
We're all here 'cause we ain't all there!
Charles Gray
<ro...@resource.taganrog.ru> wrote:
>
>Lorne D. Gilsig пишет в сообщении <3730A4EF...@mediaone.net> ...
>>Igor,
>>
>>Call a cop Igor. Get an attorney and sue the pants off Nato.
>>
>>Lorne
>>
>Lorne!
>You so brave!
>Do you have a children? Have a home?
>Do you remember about Russian nuclear missiles, and communist Russian
>Parlament?
>You so brave...
>
>Roman Ratkin.
>
>
Heh.,.
We crushed you. The U.S., all during the cold war experienced
record periods of prosperity... while in Russia, you beggered your
children, destroyed your enviroment, and exhausted your resources
producing weapons that don't work, factories that produce items so
lousy that you'd be better of selling the raw materials, and a ruling
class so corrupt that they make the typcial U.S. robber baron of the
1890's look like a saint.
The Warsaw pact is GONE... Your allies consist of a few third
world countries, who's main purpose in life is to give U.S. soldiers
live fire excercise. Your fleet, what is left of it is moldering in
port, with the Aircraft carriers mostly useless, and many of your
missile subs laying at pierside, unable to move.
Meanwhile, on every front the U.S. advances. Now, Poland
and its neighbors are joining the NATO alliance... how soon before the
Baltic republics... China may not love us, but they certainly know
who is the more important player, especially as the U.S. is part of
the trade that fuels their economy.
Militarily, your logistics situation is so screwed up and your
military readiness so low, that even Hungary did not worry about
holding up an entire Russian convoy for inspection.
As for missiles, I'd lay odds that most of those missiles are
non-functional... given that you can't even pay the soldiers that
guard them... (Loved the pic of Russian sailor's families living
onboard warships... the laundry hanging from the Missile launchers was
especially touching.).. and maintaining any kind of missile,
especiallly an ICBM takes a lot of money and material.
Russia can still be a great power... but you have to drop the
nationalism, that is only letting the oligarchs rob the Russian people
blind while they distract you with foreign bugaboos. If you don't,
you'll never dig yourself out of the hole, spending more irreplacable
money and effort on weapons systems that will never match the west
because they don't have the vast economic pool to draw from that the
west has.
Lest you think I know not whereof I speak, Russia is in the
same position as the American south, from the end of the Civil war
until the 1960's. They clung to the old ways, trying to stop the
clock, and paid for it in a near permament state of depression... with
small farmers, little industry and a society still dominated by
lenders and the remnents of the old plantation class. Many of the
white middle (and working) class of the south allowed this state of
affairs to endure, lulled by the propoganda of racial politics to let
them ignore their real problems... and their sources.
Now, although we still have problems, the South has left
much of that behind, and is benefitting with an increasingly robust
economy and powerful, multiracial culture. Russia could do the same.
Roman Ratkin
Matt Clark пишет в сообщении <3731B0A5...@rens.com> ...
>Is the communist russian parliament suicidal?
YES! Communism is madness!
It's parlament is Russian big problem and problem for world.
>Roman Ratkin wrote:
>>
>> Lorne D. Gilsig пишет в сообщении <3730A4EF...@mediaone.net> ...
>> >Igor,
>> >
>> >Call a cop Igor. Get an attorney and sue the pants off Nato.
>> >
>> >Lorne
>> >
>> Lorne!
>> You so brave!
>> Do you have a children? Have a home?
>> Do you remember about Russian nuclear missiles, and communist Russian
>> Parlament?
>> You so brave...
>>
>> Roman Ratkin.
>
Roman Ratkin
Bossman пишет в сообщении <37329628...@client.news.psi.net> ...
>Bossman says...
>
>On Wed, 05 May 1999 19:46:46 GMT, "Igor Miskovic"
><mi...@attcanada.net> wrote:
>
>And, by avoiding the UN vote, the Chinese and the Russians are
>privately thanking us for saving them from public embarrassment. Do
>you hear any 'official' statements from either of these countries
>supporting the atrocities in Kosova?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Do you know what is
military propaganda?
You can see only CNN, NBC, BBC and etc.
NATO was needed justification for your crime aggression.
It's like Hollywood... production by CNN...
You don't know what is real atrocities (Turkеy vs. Kurds for ex.)
With Regards...
Roman Ratkin
Keith Willshaw
Roman Ratkin <ro...@resource.taganrog.ru> wrote in message
news:92606523...@hecatomb.infotecstt.ru...
>
> military propaganda?
> You can see only CNN, NBC, BBC and etc.
> NATO was needed justification for your crime aggression.
> It's like Hollywood... production by CNN...
> You don't know what is real atrocities (TurkÅy vs. Kurds for ex.)
>
>
> With Regards...
> Roman Ratkin
Really why then do Amnest International , The UNHCR
and The UN War Crimes Tribunal all hold a different view I wonder
Keith
Roman Ratkin
Charles Gray пишет в сообщении <37328499...@news.jps.net> ...
> Heh.,.
> We crushed you. The U.S., all during the cold war experienced
>record periods of prosperity... while in Russia, you beggered your
>children, destroyed your enviroment, and exhausted your resources
>producing weapons that don't work, factories that produce items so
>lousy that you'd be better of selling the raw materials, and a ruling
>class so corrupt that they make the typcial U.S. robber baron of the
>1890's look like a saint.
.........
> Now, although we still have problems, the South has left
>much of that behind, and is benefitting with an increasingly robust
>economy and powerful, multiracial culture. Russia could do the same.
>
Charles you are right !
All what you say is truth, but...
But my submarine (when I was in army) with nuclear missiles locating near US
coast now.
And your can't to know about this location.
And all systems on this submarine working well (I know it).
...But you are so right.
With Regards...
Roman Ratkin.
Lorne D. Gilsig
After the G-8 summit it should be clear, even to you, that Russia is not
coming into this on your side.
Russia has its own interests in mind right now.
Lorne D. Gilsig
Me
>Do you have a children? Have a home?
>Do you remember about Russian nuclear missiles, and communist Russian
>Parlament?
>You so brave...
>
>Roman Ratkin.
>
Thats if you can find someone sober enough to FIND the launch codes...
Or taht the crrews tasked with maintaining the missles havn't sold off a few
bits here and there to pay for vodka (or food)...
>
Евгений Ожогин
3732EDED...@mediaone.net...
>Igor,
>
>After the G-8 summit it should be clear, even to you, that Russia is not
>coming into this on your side.
>
>Russia has its own interests in mind right now.
>
>Lorne D. Gilsig
>
Dear Lorne,
Russia'a interests are not necessary run counter to those of Yugoslavia. I
reckon cutting this crap NATO had started is in the interests of the US too,
not only Russia or Yugoslavia, or Papua-New Guinea.
Ivan the Bear
=Nothing per-r-rsonal, just business...=
>Roman Ratkin wrote:
>
>> Matt Clark пишет в сообщении <3731B0A5...@rens.com> ...
>> >Is the communist russian parliament suicidal?
>>
>> YES! Communism is madness!
>> It's parlament is Russian big problem and problem for world.
>>
>> >Roman Ratkin wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Lorne D. Gilsig пишет в сообщении <3730A4EF...@mediaone.net> ...
>> >> >Igor,
>> >> >
>> >> >Call a cop Igor. Get an attorney and sue the pants off Nato.
>> >> >
>> >> >Lorne
>> >> >
>> >> Lorne!
>> >> You so brave!
>> >> Do you have a children? Have a home?
>> >> Do you remember about Russian nuclear missiles, and communist Russian
>> >> Parlament?
>> >> You so brave...
>> >>
>> >> Roman Ratkin.
>> >
Alun
<ro...@resource.taganrog.ru> writes
Dream on, Roman....
--
Alun
roy_terpets
<ro...@resource.taganrog.ru> wrote:
> You can see only CNN, NBC, BBC and etc.
> NATO was needed justification for your crime aggression.
I guess Foreign Minister Ivanov is a paid talking head for CNN, NBC, BBC.
Or do we also cover our ears and run for cover when it doesn't suit our
prejudices?
Vladimir Malukh
"Lorne D. Gilsig" wrote:
>
> Igor,
>
> Call a cop Igor. Get an attorney and sue the pants off Nato.
What, NATO and US are not law and democracy protectors anymore?
They need green-man police form Mars?
Guys, your hipocricy sometimes even funny :)
Vladimir Malukh
-----------------------------------------
Vladimir Malukh
Ross Montante wrote:
>
> One of the things you learn early on in a introductory class on
> international relations in college is that international law gets
> broken all the time, and most of the time, there isn't anything anyone
> can do about it. Power decides when laws are enforced and when they
> are not in the international system. That's the way it is. Live with
> it.
>
What about breaking not international but OWN laws?
NATO has broken the own law to do not fight outside
of the own borders.
US president broken the law, which not allow him
any war conflict longer than 60 days without
permission of congress.
Isn't it enough?
--
Vladimir Malukh
-----------------------------------------
BShimp3003
>NATO has broken the own law to do not fight outside
>of the own borders.
>
Didn't know that NATO had a legislative body. In any case there's nothing in
the NATO treaty against fighting outside the borders of signatory nations
(what, you think if the fUSSR ever _had_ attacked thru the Fulda gap we
wouldn't have attacked Warsaw Pact nations? You think we would have waited
around for your troops to get on the soil of a NATO nation first? I hope not).
Lastly, while the "purpose" of NATO is to defend Western Europe, that doesn't
mean that the signatory nations can't get together and decide to do something
else.
>US president broken the law, which not allow him
>any war conflict longer than 60 days without
>permission of congress.
>
First, War Powers requires that the President _notify_ Congress... not get
their permission. Second, Congress _gave_ their permission. What's the
problem?