FAO: Mr Eacott and Mr J Randolph (and any other interested posters) - British/USA Carrier ops
parr...@my-deja.com
Could you provide some information on the air traffic aspects oc
carrier ops, and teh differences (if any) between the RN and USN in
this respect, especially during the period 1960's- mid 1970s when the
RN still had carriers worthy of the name.
Can you describe the pattern/circuit over a carrier? was it left hand,
right hand?Were aircraft normally recovered after a straight in
approach, or did you have to do a circuit first.What sort of speeds
were these circuits flown at?
Was the helicopter pattern significantly different (apart from the
speed, obviously)?
Were there any major obstacles to RN pilots landing on USN carriers and
vice versa in terms of equipment, procedures etc?
thankyou in advance
P
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
John Eacott
<parr...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:902h6d$fmm$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Far more experienced plank wing drivers should put their hands up for this one, but we cross decked
frequently, with little or no problems. Helicopter ops around the carriers differed, since we (the
RN) would use significantly different procedures to the USN. Planeguard and helo's in the wait
would hover out from the deck edge, usually in the port wait, and thus within the f/w circuit. USN
procedures usually involved a race track wait off the starboard quarter. Landing helicopters on an
RN carrier involved coming to the hover alongside your spot, before transitioning sideways over the
deck for landing. USN favoured a direct approach down the flight deck from astern, one that I would
certainly consider safer.
Only major obstacles to cross decking over to the USN was lack of adequate wardroom facilities, i.e.
_no bar_!!!!
Nearly running into New York sized fire trucks at night on the flight deck is another story.........
--
John Eacott
The Helicopter Service Australia
www.helicopterservice.com.au
parr...@my-deja.com
"John Eacott" <eac...@helicopterservice.com.au> wrote:
>
> <parr...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:902h6d$fmm$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > Hello gentlemen,
> >
> > Could you provide some information on the air traffic aspects oc
> > carrier ops, and teh differences (if any) between the RN and USN in
> > this respect, especially during the period 1960's- mid 1970s when
the
> > RN still had carriers worthy of the name.
> >
> > Can you describe the pattern/circuit over a carrier? was it left
hand,
> > right hand?Were aircraft normally recovered after a straight in
> > approach, or did you have to do a circuit first.What sort of speeds
> > were these circuits flown at?
> >
> > Was the helicopter pattern significantly different (apart from the
> > speed, obviously)?
> >
> > Were there any major obstacles to RN pilots landing on USN carriers
and
> > vice versa in terms of equipment, procedures etc?
>
> Far more experienced plank wing drivers should put their hands up for
this one,
I hope to find an old Sea Vixen/Bucc driver on these forums one day! It
seems to me to be a rather neglected area of British aviation history.
Mr Randolph or any other USN air/flight deck crew can you help at all
with the US/fixed wing perspective?
I am particularly interested in how you decided when to turn "base"
given that your airfield was moving in the opposite direction, and even
more interested on how line ups with the "runway" centerline where
accomplished given the relative motion of carrier, aircraft and angled
deck - was it treated like a crosswing landing, i.e either rudder or
aileron to keep lined up with centerline resulting in a "crabbed"
flight path? or straight in towards the bow of the carrier and only
lining up with the angled deck centerline when you got very close?
>but we cross decked
> frequently, with little or no problems. Helicopter ops around the
carriers differed, since we (the
> RN) would use significantly different procedures to the USN.
Planeguard and helo's in the wait
> would hover out from the deck edge, usually in the port wait, and
thus within the f/w circuit.
Thought so, I can remember seeing pictures of a sea king transitioning
sideways with another three or so strung out behind and to the side. So
you had a wait area where you kept station with the ship and queued up
to land?
Presumably if you used to wait off the port side, inside the f/w
pattern, then the f/w pattern was left-handed?
>USN
> procedures usually involved a race track wait off the starboard
quarter.
Was this for both f and rotary wing aircraft? Or was this a seperate
helicopter pattern that was maintained well away (one would expect)
from the f/w pattern?
> Landing helicopters on an
> RN carrier involved coming to the hover alongside your spot, before
>transitioning sideways over the
> deck for landing. USN favoured a direct approach down the flight
>deck from astern, one that I would
> certainly consider safer.
>
> Only major obstacles to cross decking over to the USN was lack of
>adequate wardroom facilities, i.e.
> _no bar_!!!!
Damned uncivilised colonials! Whoever heard of a boat with no gin on it?
I expect the USN crews were glad of a stiff tot after having landed on
something a good deealer smaller than they were used to? Could/did the
Eagle ever cross deck USN phantoms? I know the Eagle was used in trials
for the FAA version, but did it ever land/launch one operationally?
What about the Hermes when it was still fixed wing? Would the USN go
anywhere near that? I understand Bucc and Sea Vixen operations were
somewhat marginal from that ship..
>
> Nearly running into New York sized fire trucks at night on the flight
deck is another story.........
Sounds interesting..do tell. Stories are a major part of my interest in
this group.
Thanks for the response.
Drew Johnson
> Only major obstacles to cross decking over to the USN was lack of adequate wardroom facilities, i.e.
> _no bar_!!!!
I would DEFINITELY agree that the USN is inferior in this regard. The grog ration is one old tradition
that really should have translated over, when JP Jones decided the Colonies needed a Navy <G>
Socializing with the RN destroyer folk in the Med was certainly a pleasant experience. The wardroom
‘culture’ had far more going for it.
Don McIntyre
of politicians using the military for social experiments. I think
Belknap was a strong supporter of prohibition.
In article <3A250836...@flash.net>,
--
Don McIntyre (ddo...@aol.com)
Lancaster, PA, USA
According to Hemingway: There are only three true sports,
bullfighting, mountain climbing and auto racing,
all the others are children's games at which men play
The_Count
> Question for any USN aviators who have got this far: we also called our
flight deck crane Tilley,
> which I always thought derived from the manufacturer's name. Anyone know
whether this was the case,
> or did we both use the same nickname?
I think the nickname originally came from the UK forces. The original crash
crane was the Austin Coles Crane, laughingly called the "Tilly" because it
was a behemoth of a machine compared to the small Austin Tilly vehicles.
There's a photo of one at:
http://www.asam.co.uk/htrafveh.html
A tale of rotary-wing approaches:
I was ship's company in USS TRIPOLI (LPH-10) when the first at-sea tests of
the V-22 Osprey prototype were conducted off the California coast.
The pre-test briefing included heavies from the company, the ship's CO and
all the ship's Air and Ops aviators.
The CO and I were the only Navy types in the room who were not H-46
qualified or current. The company's senior test pilot stated that all
approaches would have to be nose-on, not lateral. When asked why, he stated
that if they attempted a lateral approach to the deck, one rotor would be in
ground effect, the other out, and the result would be assymetric lift that
would render the craft uncontrollable.
One helo pilot exclaimed "So THAT's why we lose so many 46's against the
side of ships!!"
One LCDR, a U. S. Navy Test Pilot School graduate, had done an exchange TP
tour with the Royal Navy, resigned from the U. S. Navy, worked as a test
pilot for Bell for a couple of years, then been invited back to active duty
with the USN. He went into uncontrollable giggles over that one and had to
leave the room.
Before the tests were completed, the Osprey had done many lateral
approaches, with no instability at all. When did this go on? September
1982. I guess 17 years of testing and development isn't too bad for such a
radical aircraft.
We also lost an SH-3 during that test period. The main transmission case
cracked and lost oil at the tower shaft input, then it started to grind
itself up. It was a nice controlled ditching, and the ship managed to come
alongside and get a choke cable around the main rotor blade shaft. The port
flotation bag chafed through and deflated at the exact moment that the B&A
crane started to take tension. The later engineering analysis found that
out-of-tolerance used parts were used during the last transmission overhaul
in place of mandatory-replacement new items. I understand there were some
career changes at the NARF over that case.
I have photos of the V-22 flights and the helo recovery buried somewhere in
my archives.
Somewhere, there's also a photo of me standing in front of the fireplace in
the Petty Officers' Mess of HMS Albion, enjoying my daily gill of Nelson's
Blood at 1130, anticipating tea time at 1500 and beer call at 1900. Now
that was a Navy with real class!
I will, however, refrain from comment on the Royal Navy's version of toilet
tissue.
Rick
John Eacott
<parr...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:902peb$lb6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> I hope to find an old Sea Vixen/Bucc driver on these forums one day! It
> seems to me to be a rather neglected area of British aviation history.
>
to find it the mainstay of their strike fleet ;-)
>
> Thought so, I can remember seeing pictures of a sea king transitioning
> sideways with another three or so strung out behind and to the side. So
> you had a wait area where you kept station with the ship and queued up
> to land?
>
> Presumably if you used to wait off the port side, inside the f/w
> pattern, then the f/w pattern was left-handed?
Pictures of helicopters in the port wait on my Gallery page. I know of no operation that would have
had the stiff wing in a starboard circuit, although we did move to the starboard wait if there were
more than 4 helicopters, or in the later days of Ark Royal, when we operated so often from 7 spot
that Flyco got into the habit of putting everyone (except the planeguard) in the stbd wait. Out of
sight, out of mind, as soon as the last f/w recovered, full helm to regain MLA, then with wind well
out of limits, think about recovering the helicopters :-)
> >
> > Only major obstacles to cross decking over to the USN was lack of
> >adequate wardroom facilities, i.e.
> > _no bar_!!!!
>
> Damned uncivilised colonials! Whoever heard of a boat with no gin on it?
> I expect the USN crews were glad of a stiff tot after having landed on
> something a good deealer smaller than they were used to? Could/did the
> Eagle ever cross deck USN phantoms? I know the Eagle was used in trials
> for the FAA version, but did it ever land/launch one operationally?
> What about the Hermes when it was still fixed wing? Would the USN go
> anywhere near that? I understand Bucc and Sea Vixen operations were
> somewhat marginal from that ship..
Eagle was far the superior hull and equipment out of Ark/Eagle, but the Defence cuts scrapped one
CVA, and Ark had already had the refit for Phantom operations, so Eagle got the chop. A few proving
flights were made with F4K's to Eagle, but no F4's came over on cross decking. Fair run of A4's
(USN & RAN), Prowlers, IIRC we even had Crusaders, but they may have been Froggie's, Etendards, etc.
Getting the aircrew to go home was often the biggest problem, Eagle had the longest bar ever in a
grey funnel liner! During a mid 60's refit the aft lower hangar was turned into workshop and
accommodation areas, and the 4 deck became the wardroom and bar, with the lift well as the anteroom,
the bar took up the area across the space between the wardroom and anteroom.
By comparison, Ark's wardroom was a couple of areas down on 6 deck, and very utilitarean and cramped
by comparison. One Marine F4 crew thoroughly enjoyed their cross deck when we were in the Med,
since they went U/S on every attempt to return them back to mother. Eventually we steamed into
Grand Harbour, Malta, with the USMC F4 well hidden down the back of the lower hangar, since Dom
Mintoff (Maltese Prime Minister) had recently had a spat with the USA, and prudence dictated we not
advertise their presence.
The F4 crew had a great time, which was enhanced when their cab appeared on Fly 1 for ground runs in
harbour, neatly repainted with 892 NAS tail fin, and the US markings covered with brown paper!
First launch after clearing harbour was their cab, which apparently was welcomed home with delight,
and taken all the way back to the USA in RN colours. (Some pictures on the Phantom directory on my
site)
The incident between me and a fire truck was on Forrestal, where I spent a day or so ferrying crews
after a week's cross decking. Well into dark I was on my last launch, facing for'd, and Flyco
called wind Red 90. No problems, I spot turned left to face into a dark nothing for departure, but
had a lot of trouble holding the hover, since the ship was well into a turn which put the wind over
the stern. Long pause for thought, spoilt by a squeak of surprise as my co pilot looked out of his
window to see us drifting nicely into a fire truck, which was an unknown piece of kit for us Poms to
find on a flight deck. One overtorque and dive over the side later, we went home to a nice pint of
Watney's Export, at about 10c a pint!
Whunicut
<Snipped much great writing>
>Question for any USN aviators who have got this far: we also called our
>flight deck crane Tilley,
>which I always thought derived from the manufacturer's name. Anyone know
>whether this was the case,
>or did we both use the same nickname?
>>
I go back to the 40s USN and the wooden deck CVs and we called them Tillys
then. Never knew why. Also never knew why every sand dredge was called Mary
Ann.
Regards,
Warren
republican_NOT
>
> IIRC, we have SecNav John Belknap to thank for this. Another case of politicians using the military for social experiments. I think Belknap was a strong supporter of prohibition.
Actually it was Josephus Daniels who outlawed alcoholic beverages on
US Navy ships and he did it *prior* to the enactment of Prohibition
(called "The Noble Experiment"), by Constitutional Amendment in 1919.
However, following the end of Prohibition in 1933, the Navy decided to
keep the regualtions as they were.
The Change in the Regulations
On July 1, 1914, Article 827, Naval Instructions, will be annulled and
in its stead the following will be substituted:
"The use or introduction for drinking purposes of alcoholic liquors on
board any naval vessel, or within any navy yard or station, is
strictly prohibited, and commanding officers will be held directly
responsible for the enforcement of this order."
- Josephus Daniels, Secretary of the Navy
Prohibition
Prohibition (1920-1933) was known as The Noble Experiment. The results
of the experiment are clear: innocent people suffered; organized crime
grew into an empire; the police, courts, and politicians became
corrupt; disrespect for the law grew; and the per capita consumption
of the prohibited substance — alcohol — increased dramatically, year
by year, for the next thirteen years of this Noble Experiment, never
to return to the pre-1920 levels.
- from "Ain't Nobody's Business If I Do," by Peters McWilliams
Two Constitutional Amendments, the 18th and 21st, were enacted. The
first, as a result of the Volstead
Act, was passed by Congress December 18, 1917. It wasn't ratified by a
sufficient number of states until January 16, 1919. Repealed by
Amendment 21, which was passed by Congress February 20, 1933 and
ratified December 5, 1933.
[A History of] Alcohol in the Navy, 1794-1935
The consumption of alcohol on board U.S. Navy vessels was prohibited
by General Order 99, effective 1 July 1914, issued by Secretary of the
Navy Josephus Daniels on 1 June 1914.
The following regulations governed the use of alcohol in the Navy from
1794 to 1935:
1794 On 27 March, the daily ration established by Congress for the
Navy included "one half-pint of distilled spirits," "or in lieu
thereof, one quart of beer."
1797 On 1 July, daily liquor ration set at "one half pint of distilled
spirits."
1801 Daily liquor ration established on 3 March, remained at "one half
pint of distilled spirits."
1831 General Order issued by Levi Woodbury on 15 June, allowed
servicemen to relinquish their liquor ration in return for a cash
payment of 6 cents per day.
1842 On 29 August, Congress reduced the amount of liquor issued in the
daily ration to one gill (1/4 pint). Also no commissioned officer,
midshipman, or enlisted man below the age of 21 was allowed to draw
his liquor ration.
1847 On 3 March, the commutation rate for the liquor ration was
reduced to 3 cents per day.
1848 On 3 August, the commutation rate for the liquor ration was
increased to 4 cents per day.
1851 On 3 March, the commutation of the liquor ration was restricted
to "officers and their attendants" only. Congress also stipulated that
only those persons "attached to, and doing duty on board a sea-going
or receiving vessel," or who were "attached to the ordinary of the
navy yards" were eligible to draw rations.
1853 On 31 August, Congress repealed the 1851 law restricting the
commutation of the liquor ration to officers and their attendants
only. Privilege was once again opened up to the rank and file.
1862 Spirit ration was discontinued by act of Congress on 14 July.
"Distilled spirituous liquors" were also banned from all naval vessels
"except as medical stores and upon the order and under the control of
the medical officers of such vessels." Those who are entitled to the
spirit ration will receive a commutation payment of 5 cents per day
(in addition to their regular pay) beginning 1 September.
1862 General Order issued by Gideon Welles on 16 September, required
captains of naval vessels to remove all distilled liquors from their
ships except those that serve as medical stores. "Ale, beer, wine,
and other liquors not distilled" were exempted from the provisions of
the act of 14 July 1862.
1864 Welles' General Order 29 of 1 February, stated that beer, ale,
wine, "and other liquors not prohibited by law on board vessels of the
Navy" were to "be regarded as private stores" and were "not [to] be
brought on board without the sanction of the commanding officer."
1870 The last year in which commutation of the spirit ration was
specifically mentioned in Navy regulations.
1893 Article 1080 of the Navy Regulations permitted wardroom and
steerage officers to form their own wine
messes. No officer was required to be a member of a wine mess.
1899 General Order 508, issued by John D. Long on 3 February, directed
commanding officers and commandants
to forbid the sale or issue of "any malt or alcoholic liquor to . . .
enlisted men, either on board ship, or within the limits of navy
yards, naval stations, or marine barracks, except in the medical
department."
1914 General Order 99, issued by Josephus Daniels on 1 June, strictly
prohibited "the use or introduction for
drinking purposes of alcoholic liquors on board any naval vessel, or
within any navy yard or station," to take effect on 1 July 1914, thus
putting an end to the officers' wine mess.
1917 On 18 May, in "An Act to Authorize the President to Increase
Temporarily the Military Establishment of the United States" (also
called the Selective Draft Act), the President was empowered to
prohibit the sale,
distribution, or possession of alcoholic beverages at military posts.
It was also declared unlawful to sell alcoholic beverages to men in
uniform. On 6 October, in "An Act to Promote the Efficiency of the
United States Navy," the Selective Draft Act was amended to apply to
the Navy.
1918 Under authority granted the President in Section 12 of the
Selective Draft Act, as amended in "An Act to
Promote the Efficiency of the United States Navy," Secretary Daniels,
on 5 March signed General Order 373
establishing dry zones, five miles in width, around U.S. naval
installations. The sale, serving, or transport of liquor in these
zones (excepting use in private homes) was prohibited.
1921 Daniels' General Order 17, issued 5 January, prohibited naval
personnel from purchasing or accepting
"intoxicating liquor from bootleggers within the proscribed zones," or
from having "intoxicating liquor in... [their] possession on board any
naval vessel, or at any naval station, or at any other place under the
exclusive jurisdiction of the Navy Department."
1934 Acting Secretary H. L. Roosevelt's General Order 244, dated 21
March, restricted the use of alcoholic
beverages at shore establishments under naval jurisdiction to
"officers' quarters, officers' messes, and officers' clubs."
Commandants and commanding officers were to issue the necessary orders
to carry this into effect. Upon special consideration the Secretary of
the Navy could grant special exceptions to this general order.
1935 General Order 59, issued by Claude Swanson on 13 May, reiterated
provisions of General Order 244.
For additional information, see Hanson W. Baldwin "The End of the Wine
Mess," U.S. Naval Institute Proceedings
84, no.8 (August 1958): 82-91; and Harold D. Langley. "Social Reform
in the United States Navy, 1798-1862."
Urbana: University of Illinois Press, 1967.
from the Navy Historical Center WebSite
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq32-1.htm
John Randolph
Sorry I couldn't respond more rapidly but my ISP mail and news group servers
went sneakers up yesterday. If you don't mind, I'll respond in a separate
post regarding U.S. Navy carrier ops patterns.
John
<parr...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:902h6d$fmm$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Hello gentlemen,
>
> Could you provide some information on the air traffic aspects oc
> carrier ops, and teh differences (if any) between the RN and USN in
> this respect, especially during the period 1960's- mid 1970s when the
> RN still had carriers worthy of the name.
>
> Can you describe the pattern/circuit over a carrier? was it left hand,
> right hand?Were aircraft normally recovered after a straight in
> approach, or did you have to do a circuit first.What sort of speeds
> were these circuits flown at?
>
> Was the helicopter pattern significantly different (apart from the
> speed, obviously)?
>
> Were there any major obstacles to RN pilots landing on USN carriers and
> vice versa in terms of equipment, procedures etc?
>
> thankyou in advance
>
> P
Mary Shafer
> I go back to the 40s USN and the wooden deck CVs and we called them
> Tillys then. Never knew why. Also never knew why every sand dredge
> was called Mary Ann.
After the song about Mary Ann, down by the sea shore sifting sand,
maybe? The song is easily that old.
--
Mary Shafer Senior Handling Qualities Research Engineer
sha...@orville.dfrc.nasa.gov
NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, CA
Of course I don't speak for NASA
Whunicut
>whun...@aol.comNS (Whunicut) writes:
>
>> I go back to the 40s USN and the wooden deck CVs and we called them
>> Tillys then. Never knew why. Also never knew why every sand dredge
>> was called Mary Ann.
>
>After the song about Mary Ann, down by the sea shore sifting sand,
>maybe? The song is easily that old.
>
>--
I wondered about that too, Mary but was Harry Belafonte around in the 40s? Also
the dredges ran 24 hours a day. "All day, all night, Mary Ann".
Regards,
Warren
Ogden Johnson III
>>Mary Shafer <sha...@orville.dfrc.nasa.gov> wrote;
>>whun...@aol.comNS (Whunicut) writes:
>>> I go back to the 40s USN and the wooden deck CVs and we called them
>>> Tillys then. Never knew why. Also never knew why every sand dredge
>>> was called Mary Ann.
>>After the song about Mary Ann, down by the sea shore sifting sand,
>>maybe? The song is easily that old.
>I wondered about that too, Mary but was Harry Belafonte around in the 40s? Also
>the dredges ran 24 hours a day. "All day, all night, Mary Ann".
Harry Belafonte showed up in NY in the early 50s, IIRC from a TV bio a
couple of years ago. However, the song predates him by a tad.
OJ III
Ogden Johnson III
> capt...@flash.net wrote:
>> John Eacott wrote:
>> > Only major obstacles to cross decking over to the USN was
>lack of adequate wardroom facilities, i.e.
>> > _no bar_!!!!
>> I would DEFINITELY agree that the USN is inferior in this regard.
>>The grog ration is one old tradition
>> that really should have translated over, when JP Jones decided
>the Colonies needed a Navy <G>
"Wet" ships, grog rations, etc., *did* "translate over", until
>IIRC, we have SecNav John Belknap to thank for this. Another case
>of politicians using the military for social experiments. I think
>Belknap was a strong supporter of prohibition.
You misspelled Josephus Daniels. Whatever havoc John Belknap may have
wreaked on the Navy, turning it dry wasn't one of them.
OJ III
[Was Belknap a SecNav?]
John Eacott
"The_Count" <the_...@usa.net> wrote in message news:t2c0joq...@corp.supernews.com...
>
snip
>
> A tale of rotary-wing approaches:
>
> I was ship's company in USS TRIPOLI (LPH-10) when the first at-sea tests of
> the V-22 Osprey prototype were conducted off the California coast.
>
> The pre-test briefing included heavies from the company, the ship's CO and
> all the ship's Air and Ops aviators.
>
> The CO and I were the only Navy types in the room who were not H-46
> qualified or current. The company's senior test pilot stated that all
> approaches would have to be nose-on, not lateral. When asked why, he stated
> that if they attempted a lateral approach to the deck, one rotor would be in
> ground effect, the other out, and the result would be assymetric lift that
> would render the craft uncontrollable.
>
> One helo pilot exclaimed "So THAT's why we lose so many 46's against the
> side of ships!!"
>
> One LCDR, a U. S. Navy Test Pilot School graduate, had done an exchange TP
> tour with the Royal Navy, resigned from the U. S. Navy, worked as a test
> pilot for Bell for a couple of years, then been invited back to active duty
> with the USN. He went into uncontrollable giggles over that one and had to
> leave the room.
ROTFL, I'd heard the same tale, but I guess you can't legislate against terminal stupidity ;-)
John Eacott
"Ogden Johnson III" <oj...@home.com> wrote in message
news:bmmd2t0tnuanulp9a...@4ax.com...
>
> You misspelled Josephus Daniels. Whatever havoc John Belknap may have
> wreaked on the Navy, turning it dry wasn't one of them.
>
> OJ III
> [Was Belknap a SecNav?]
Our havoc was wreaked by a parsimonious (Labour) Government on 31st July 1970, when the tot was
replaced by a daily ration of beer for the lower rates, and beer and/or spirits for the senior
rates. Wardroom drinking habits came under scrutiny in the following few years, severely
restricting the fun of shouting a round, or buying wine for dinner after losing at uckers or cards
:-( In fact the Senior Rates mess became more a social meeting place, since they controlled their
own rations, and often "carried over" unused daily allowances!
Two cartoons spring to mind, one by Tugg Wilson, with two jacks out on the freezing, soaking bridge
wing, with one saying to the other "Never mind, Chalky, we'll soon be able to go below for our nice
warm cans of beer".
The other was also by Tugg, who penned:
"Oh Nelson are you listenin' - on your column up aloft
To the cries of us poor sailors down below
Awake your master gunner and bring a ton of shot
And fire it at the bone 'eads wot robbed us of our Tot!
Cheers!"
I also remember the shocked look of horror on the face of the Duty PO when, as Duty Officer, I
supervised my first ever rum issue, and duly ordered the unused issue be discarded, as per Queen's
Regs. The shutters on the serving hatch came down at warp speed, and a young Midshipman was
tactfully educated on the way of things in Her Majesty's Royal Navy. I slept very well that
afternoon after a particularly large tot of neaters.....:-)
Don McIntyre
In article <3A26384A...@ifyoucan.com>,
--
Don McIntyre (ddo...@aol.com)
Lancaster, PA, USA
According to Hemingway: There are only three true sports,
bullfighting, mountain climbing and auto racing,
all the others are children's games at which men play
Gary J. Harris
"dry" and have decided to victimize, uh, reward you with the results
of my research. Hope you don't mind.
Having made a couple of visits to the ships of the Commonwealth, as
well as the military attaches in Washington embassies, I
can attest to the high quality of the hospitality offered, the
spirits presented for consumption, and the rich traditions
attending such events.
I cannot establish a connection between a John Belknap and any liquor
policy in the US Navy. Sorry, but there has *never* been a Secretary
of the Navy named John Belknap. Perhaps Don McIntire (referenced
below) can enlighten us on this.
See http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/people/secnav/secnavs.html
There are several distinguished "Belknap's" in US Navy history,
including GEORGE EUGENE BELKNAP who died on active duty in 1903 at
Key West, Florida, rank Admiral. At least two ships, the first a
Clemson class ship that underwent many conversions, the second the
lead ship of the Belknap class that also went through some
nomenclature changes (DD251{aka AVD 8 - DD 251 - APD 251} and
DLG26/CG26) were named after him. What role he might have had in
liquor management on Navy ships I have not been able to ascertain.
Actually it was Josephus Daniels who outlawed alcoholic beverages on
US Navy ships and he did it *prior* to the enactment of Prohibition
(called "The Noble Experiment"), by Constitutional Amendment in 1919.
However, following the end of Prohibition in 1933, the Navy decided
to keep the regulations as they were.
Prohibition
issue of "any malt or alcoholic liquor to...enlisted men, either on
Ogden Johnson III wrote:
>
> Don McIntyre <don...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > capt...@flash.net wrote:
>
> >> John Eacott wrote:
>
> >> > Only major obstacles to cross decking over to the USN was
> >lack of adequate wardroom facilities, i.e.
> >> > _no bar_!!!!
>
> >> I would DEFINITELY agree that the USN is inferior in this regard.
> >>The grog ration is one old tradition
> >> that really should have translated over, when JP Jones decided
> >the Colonies needed a Navy <G>
>
> "Wet" ships, grog rations, etc., *did* "translate over", until
>
> >IIRC, we have SecNav John Belknap to thank for this. Another case
> >of politicians using the military for social experiments. I think
> >Belknap was a strong supporter of prohibition.
>
The_Count
He was impeached for taking bribes from Indian agents; I'm not aware of any
particular Navy/spirits association.
He was a "today" politician, though: Congress impeached him, and he
resigned from office on the day he was impeached. Congress couldn't try him
for the crimes of bribery since he no longer held public office.....
"Gary J. Harris" <ghar...@idt.net> wrote in message
news:3A278C27...@idt.net...
> Sorry folks. I got interested in the history of US Navy ships being
> "dry" and have decided to victimize, uh, reward you with the results
> of my research. Hope you don't mind.
>
> Having made a couple of visits to the ships of the Commonwealth, as
> well as the military attaches in Washington embassies, I
> can attest to the high quality of the hospitality offered, the
> spirits presented for consumption, and the rich traditions
> attending such events.
>
> I cannot establish a connection between a John Belknap and any liquor
> policy in the US Navy. Sorry, but there has *never* been a Secretary
> of the Navy named John Belknap. Perhaps Don McIntire (referenced
> below) can enlighten us on this.
<snip>
Gary J. Harris
The intent here was not to "correct" you. Sometimes I throw some
things into a msg in the newsgroups (especially when I've been on the
PC late into the night) that is dredged from way, way, wayyyyy back.
There is always some a**h***, excuse me, some very thoughful person to
flame, uh, "kindly" point out the error in my choice of facts
presented. Some people take the nature of the newsgroup to mean
grammatically-correct, spell-checked to death, fact-checked through
the Smithsonian, Harvard, Stanford, and the Joint Propulsion Lab
(though they lost points when they mixed up the kilometer vs mile
equations).
My problem (and I am getting help) is that I get "interested" and I
have this handy-dandy toy called the Internet. Combine that with
Google (and insomnia), and you get what you read through...As a last
resort I have a wall full of books if I really want to get serious.
The really funny thing is that for years I have read of the ingenious
ways that sailors have come up with to get booze on a ship, from
sneaking it on board in various disguises to manufacturing their own.
The regulations seem to exist mostly for show and as a detterent to
weak-willed individuals.
Gary
Christopher Biow
>The really funny thing is that for years I have read of the ingenious
>ways that sailors have come up with to get booze on a ship, from
>sneaking it on board in various disguises to manufacturing their own.
>The regulations seem to exist mostly for show and as a detterent to
>weak-willed individuals.
At least for junior enlisted, the rules do have the effect of drying out
the alkies while they are at sea. I don't know if that cures anyone--they
are largely too junior to have "hit bottom". But it definitely lead to some
real Jekyll/Hyde instances in my experience, with members who walked on
water while afloat, but turned into worthless drunks ashore.
And even for an officer, it at least places some limit upon the *rate* at
which alcohol can be consumed during extended times at sea. I can't recall
any alcoholic officers whose problems were apparent afloat.
John Randolph
ship's boats were kept busy for several days going to and from the docks of
the major liquor distributors. Each squadron had mailed in their orders and
each used enlisted men to load and unload the boats with case after case of
very cheap booze. For example, I bought a case of 40 oz. bottles of Johnny
Walker Black Label Scotch for $1.40 a bottle. There was no effort made to
hide this activity and those of us who were off the ship when our booze
arrived found it stacked up in our staterooms when we returned.
Several days later our CAG, Obie Oberg, decided that maybe it wasn't such a
good idea to have all that hooch sitting in the aircrew staterooms so he
ordered that it all be marked and placed under lock and key in one of the
CAG spaces. Of course, he let it be known that if anyone wanted to retrieve
a sample of their juice, all they need do was ask the CAG for the key.
At the same time, the ship's admin office was taking orders from anyone and
everyone on the ship for a duty free variety pack. The admin types had
discovered that each man could bring one gallon of spirits back into the
U.S. duty free. I remember seeing pallet after pallet of these packs come
aboard for storage in the supply spaces. Each man ordering a pack could
specify which kinds of booze he wanted in his pack. For example, one could
order a quart of gin, two quarts of scotch, and quart of vodka; all top
brand stuff like Beefeaters, Johnny Walker, and Smirnoff.
Two days before Forrestal was due to tie up in Norfolk, the Air Wing flew
off to NAS Oceana. Two U.S. Customs inspectors were present in each
squadron line shack to facilitate the processing of customs forms. I was
standing two guys back in the line when one of our J.O.s presented a
declaration that included one of the variety packs. The Customs guy quizzed
the guy as to what was in the pack and when the guy told him that it was Gin
and Scotch, the Customs guy informed the pilot that the one gallon duty free
provision applied only to U.S. domestic liquor. He would have to pay duty
on his pack because the contents consisted of foreign distilled liquor.
When the rest of us heard that, we cracked up laughing. You should have
seen the look on that Customs inspector's face when we described the
mountain of variety packs that were now sitting on pallets in Forrestal's
hangar bays waiting to be distributed when the ship hit port.
That inspector immediately got on the phone with his supervisors and the end
result was that they waved the duty on all the Forrestal variety packs
because they didn't have the personnel or the time to collect the duty from
several thousand sailors as they departed the ship.
John
"Christopher Biow" <bi...@ezmort.com> wrote in message
news:hcsi2tsahrah3cr3b...@4ax.com...
> "Gary J. Harris" <ghar...@idt.net> wrote:
>
> >The really funny thing is that for years I have read of the ingenious
> >ways that sailors have come up with to get booze on a ship, from
> >sneaking it on board in various disguises to manufacturing their own.
> >The regulations seem to exist mostly for show and as a detterent to
> >weak-willed individuals.
>
The_Count
was wrapped around the hangar bay fire-curtain door machinery. The deck of
the space was about 2-1/2 feet below the level of the passageway outside.
On the way back from WestPac, the cases of booze went on the deck two deep,
3/4-inch plywood on top of that, and gray rubber matting to finish it off.
Then the desks and cabinets were returned to the space, and the deck was
level with the outside passageway.
I never knew of a bottle being cracked in transit .......
There was, however, the unfortunate situation with the Admiral's CONEX
container. I believe the Rec Beach at NAS North Island is named after that
gentleman.
Rick
"John Randolph" <REMOVEjr...@home.com> wrote in message
news:XYfW5.29343$I5.5...@news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com...
> When Forrestal dropped anchor in the port of Malta in 1965, a number of
> ship's boats were kept busy for several days going to and from the docks
of
> the major liquor distributors. Each squadron had mailed in their orders
and
> each used enlisted men to load and unload the boats with case after case
of
> very cheap booze. For example, I bought a case of 40 oz. bottles of
Johnny
> Walker Black Label Scotch for $1.40 a bottle. There was no effort made to
> hide this activity and those of us who were off the ship when our booze
> arrived found it stacked up in our staterooms when we returned.
<snip>
The_Count
"Drew Johnson" <capt...@flash.net> wrote in message
news:3A29A36E...@flash.net...
> The_Count wrote:
>
> > There was, however, the unfortunate situation with the Admiral's CONEX
> > container. I believe the Rec Beach at NAS North Island is named after
that
> > gentleman.
> >
>
>
John's reply has it on the button!
You're never in suspense for long on this NG. Way back before ships had
cable-tv, Internet, air conditioning and all that, we had to do something
for recreation!
The most fun was to go up in the foc'sle where everyone was working out and
start a good, juicy, rumor.
Then back to the fantail where everyone was smoking and joking and see how
long it took the rumor to make it from one end of the ship to the other.
Faster than the Internet!
Rick
Drew Johnson
> When Forrestal dropped anchor in the port of Malta in 1965, a number of
> ship's boats were kept busy for several days going to and from the docks of
> the major liquor distributors.
Things must have tightened up considerably by ‘68, when Essex pulled into Malta. I
know for sure that the government and principal newspaper were very anti-American and
pro-Communist. The local officials even went so far as to ‘manufacture’ an
international incident that put egg on the Admiral's face.
There was an all-ship’s company beach party that created said incident. The locals
must have hired a bunch of goons to go to the beach after the party had ended.There
they emptied all the trash barrels, which the troops had meticulously filled, by
cleaning up after themselves. They made an unsightly mess all over the place. The
newspaper, conveniently, had a reporter and a photographer to record the mess the
Yanks had left on the beach. They went so far as to import some of the local
“ladies”, to testify that they had been sexually terrorized by our drunken sailors.
I and several other officers knew these were all falsehoods, as we had the ‘duty’
that day and were on site to insure that nothing untoward happened. The entire thing
was ‘created’ by the anti-American locals.
BTW.. . .another thing that changed was the manner in which the booze, what booze
there was. . . was delivered. It did not arrive in the copious quantities you
described, except for the Flag folks <g> The Admiral had a barge load. .musta been 50
cases delivered, for his personal store. But, funny thing; all the boxes were
stenciled “China”. . . .LOL. The loading party figured out pretty quick that this
stuff wasn’t for the Admiral’s lady, at home. They discerned what was in the boxes,
by the way it ‘clinked’ & ‘jingled’. . lol. Word was all over the ship that night.
That’s OK. . I never told anyone about the 2 Berretas I acquired at the Naples Rod &
Gun club, either. <g>
Drew Johnson
John Randolph
Ever hear of Admiral Erdman? Smugler's cove? Here's the story.
It seems that there was an Admiral by the name of W. L. Erdman who
completed his last sea tour as ComNavMariannas. It also seems that there was
a North Island NAS beach named Erdman Beach. When it was so named or for
what reason, I do not know. In preparation for returning to Coronado,
Admiral Erdman decided to provide himself with a private stock of
inexpensive liquor, wine, and champagne. To accomplish this, several
members of the Admiral's staff were kept busy accumulating inexpensive
booze. As I heard it, this amounted to several hundred cases of the world's
finest spirits. And of course, the Admiral considered the declaration of
his cache with U.S. customs as pedestrian and unnecessary.
As it would happen, there was a first class petty officer on the staff that
desired to bring back a case or two of his own and requested the Admiral
give him permission to do so. The Admiral refused. The staff returned to
North Island, the Admirals private stock of booze was stored in the basement
of his Coronado home, and he retired with honors. Some months later,
someone informed Customs of the Admiral's illicit stash. A search warrant
was obtained and the Admirals home was searched. This resulted in suitable
punishment for the Admiral which included loss of retirment pay and total
disgrace. And from that time on, Erdman Beach became known as Smuggler's
Cove. I met Mrs. Erdman some years after her husband's death and she said
that she was certain that the incident hastened the Admiral's demise.
John
"Drew Johnson" <capt...@flash.net> wrote in message
news:3A299887...@flash.net...
Gary J. Harris
Did Admiral Erdman just lose "some" retirement pay or did he get
nailed for real?
As an aside, my father was a loadmaster for most of his 29-odd years
in the USAF. We were stationed at Travis AFB, California for his last
active duty time (late sixties - early '70s). We'd go out to the
Aerial Port to pick him up and sometimes, if the planes parked close
enough to the terminal, we would see all kinds of things being
rolled, carried, dragged, or otherwise unloaded off a/c that had
just done the far east tour. The cardboard liquor carriers with
excelsior sticking out were very popular. Domed Japanes barbeques.
China and brass from Hong Kong. Travis AFB was the only base I ever
heard of that did not have a Class VI store. They tried and tried to
get one but the local merchants kept crying "foul" to their
congressmen and kept thme out. It was a very long trip to San
Francisco pick up booze at MOTBA or one of the Navy facilities.
Also, at the time, the new Honda 350s had just been introduced and
were proving extremely popular with the airmen. They could
be picked up in Japan a lot cheaper than the dealers were charging
in the US. I saw more than one rolled down the back ramp of C-130s
and C-141s. I tried and tried to get good-old-Dad to pick me one up
but good-old-Mom wouldn't let him.
Never heard much about US Customs busting anyone but I knew they
were about. Also, Travis was supposedly notorious in this time
period for being the source of a lot of drug activity coming from
the airmen who regularly flew to Thailand, Vietnam, etc.(I wouldn't
know about this from any personal knowledge, y'understand).
Gary J. Harris
John Randolph
I don't know all the details of the Erdman story but I think he got hit
pretty hard.
Your recollection of the Hondas rolling of the cargo plane ramps reminded me
of the time I checked into NAS Jacksonville in June of 1959 to attend a 3
month air-to-air weapons systems school. I was a sparkling new nugget and
knew very little about the carrier Navy. A guy who had gone through flight
training with me was going through the AD RAG had a buddy who was on
Saratoga, which had just returned from a Med cruise. He invited me to go
with him to Mayport to watch his buddy retrieve his new Porsche. When we
got to pierside, a large crane was off-loading new car after new car.
Porsches, Jaguars, Mercedes, Volkswagons, you name it. Later the guy with
the shiny new Porsche told us that cars that were ordered on the cruise were
shipped to Naples for loading aboard Sara. But for some operational reason
I don't recall, Sara had to bypass Naples on the way out of the Med. So the
new cars were barged from Naples to Gibralter where Sara picked them up. I
suspect that was the last load of cars the Navy brought back.
No WestPac cruise carrier that I know of returned with automobiles but they
sure carted back just about everything else. One brought back a sail boat
that the ship's Navigator had custom made in Hong Kong.
I was on Coral Sea when she returned from a WestPac cruise in 1978. It was
customary then for returning carriers to stop in Hawaii and pick up family
members for the "Tiger Cruise." A couple of days before the Hawaiian
arrival, the ship would fly out a group of customs agents who would then
process the crew's declarations and clear the ship for entry into the U.S.
A message arrived two days before their arrival with the names of the
agents. One of them was a woman and Captain, George Aitcheson went beserk.
No damned woman was going to ride his ship, by God. The ship fired off a
message refusing permissio for the female agent to come aboard, citing lack
of proper facilities, etc. as the reason. Customs fired back with a zinger
that informed the ship that if she couldn't come aboard, none of the agents
would be coming and the ship would not be cleared to enter any U.S. port.
The Captain was astounded when he learned that the U.S. Customs agency had
to power to do just as they threatened. He was forced to relent and she was
quartered in the Navigator's sea cabin, which had it's own private head.
The funny thing was that she was drop-dead gorgeous and half the guys on the
ship had hit on her by the time we pulled into Pearl Harbor.
The customs forms we filled out were usually no problem. The law specified
that if the ship was outside of the U.S. for 6 months or more, then
everything purchased on the cruise was duty free. But you had to be
careful, though. There was a case where the ship sent an advance party of
ship's company and air wing officers and enlisted back to the states just
prior to departing Subic for home. Their custom forms were filled out
before they left and turned over to the agents in Hawaii. One of the agents
noticed the none of the guys in the advance met the 6 month requirement
because they had returned early. They all received hefty bills for the duty
imposed on their declared goods. The problem was alleviated by ship and air
wing individuals contributing to a fund from which the duty for each early
returnee was paid.
John
"Gary J. Harris" <ghar...@idt.net> wrote in message
news:3A2A4388...@idt.net...
Drew Johnson
> Never heard much about US Customs busting anyone but I knew they
> were about.
Was Customs even around, looking at stuff?
I know my first lesson in Customs came from a grizzled, very old (at least he seemed
so at the time) passed-over LCDR, who happened to be one of the best aviators I ever
met. I was a newly frocked full-LT and tasked by the squadron to check out in the
HU-16. We (crew of about 6) were ferried down to Rosie Rhodes in the squadron T-39
and checked into quarters, since it was too late that day to accomplish anything.
John ‘briefed’ us that night at the O’Club on how it would go. He planned to spend a
minium of 3 days in the wonderful tropics. . (it was full-blown winter at NASNORVA,
and points north) by finding Maint gripes that would keep us there. The crew chief
and troops were all in full aggrement, as we were aware of many A/C waiting to be
ferried at lovely places like Brunswick, Quonset, Grosse Isle, etc <g>.
The next day we took it out for a Maint. test flight and brought it back with about
10 gripes, leaving the station Maint guys grumbling, as we repaired to our cabanas on
the beach. The second day, we filed VFR and about 20 minutes into the flight, John
looked over at me and the other LT who was also being checked out and asked if we had
ever been to the BVI.
Lo and behold some islands hove to on the horizon and a quick peruse at the charts
showed that we were looking at St. Thomas <G>. . We contacted the tower and John
requested a special pattern for water landings, since the landing zone was within the
airport’s Control Zone. After a demo, I got to shoot 3-4 ‘touch and gos’ and then I
‘hot-swapped’ seats with the other guy and he got his. After about 45 minutes of this
adrenaline rushing new experience, we request landing clearance and touched down at
the airport.
We weren’t on the ground 5 minutes, and wouldn’t you know it, the Chief approached
and said to John; “Geeze Commander, a couple of those ‘nugget’ landings shook some
things loose and we got a couple of downing gripes here. Looks like we are going to
have to spend the night, getting it fixed.”
Out come the overnight ditty bags of the entire ‘experienced’ crew, leaving the 2
junior LT’s in their flight suits, without a razor or a change of clothes. First
lesson learned in this line of work. Always carry an extra change of clothes. <G>
Wonder of wonders. .we already had reservations at a nice little hotel. <g>
The next morning we showed up at the airplane a van was waiting and subsequently
several cases of fine liquor was unloaded and ‘stowed’ in the bilges. . . a great
‘storage’ place that most Customs folks would never think of looking.
We flew back to Rosie. . cleaned up a couple of minor gripes, signed off the
acceptance flight and repaired to the ‘Q for lunch. John suggested taking a little
afternoon nap, because we were going to do an after dark departure. I figured out
subsequently our departure was exactly planned to put us into Homestead (and Customs)
at zero-dark-30. We rolled into the Transient Line at Homestead at about 0300 and the
Duty Airman ambled out and asked us if we need fuel and transportation. . and. . “oh.
. .by the way. . . do you have anything to declare for Customs? There is no one here
from that office (wonder of wonders) at this hour and I am supposed to ask you
that.”. . . I would have liked to call it quits for the night, right there, but John
said “no. . we don’t want this big, attention getting seaplane sitting here when the
sun come up. . .” , so we re-fuled, refiled and pressed on to NORVA, where the
illicit booty was unpacked and distributed around the squadron, without the prying
eyes of any Customs folks. Seems the CO received a couple of cases of the ‘order’, so
this mission was well-planned, from the outset. <G>
Drew Johnson
> The most fun was to go up in the foc'sle where everyone was working out and
> start a good, juicy, rumor.
>
> Then back to the fantail where everyone was smoking and joking and see how
> long it took the rumor to make it from one end of the ship to the other.
>
> Faster than the Internet!
>
> Rick
Absolutely true. . .and just about as accurate <G>
John Randolph
other month or so and there were never any customs agents around to be
problem for them. One day they were motoring back to Jax with a good-sized
load of booze and upon check-in with Jax tower, the tower casually informed
them where they would be parked for the customs inspection. Oops, quick
change of destination to NAS Cecil. Cecil tower not only told them that
they had a Customs welcoming party but that every Navy field in the area was
covered. The crew had no choice but to fly out to see and dump the entire
load overboard.
"Drew Johnson" <capt...@flash.net> wrote in message
news:3A2AA52D...@flash.net...
> "Gary J. Harris" wrote:
>
> > Never heard much about US Customs busting anyone but I knew they
> > were about.
>
> Lo and behold some islands hove to on the horizon and a quick peruse at
the charts
Red Rider
deployment. For some reason we didn't stop at Rota as was the usual custom,
so there was a definite lack of booze on board.
Our first liberty port was at Malaga Spain, in the middle of a wine
festival. A senior officer, from the Air Group Staff, and his buddy an
unknown blackshoe from the ship, bought boxes upon boxes of wine on board.
They stored their contraband in an unused space with a high security padlock
on the door. This padlock was one of the type that went on mail bags ect.
Now the staff officer was intensely disliked by all the JO's and CPO's in
the Air Group. (Probably everyone disliked him, but they were too polite to
express their dislike in front of us). No one bothered caring one way or
the other about the other guy.
It just so happened that we had a nugget, who had grown up in Brooklyn.
Among the skills he had picked up in his mis-spent youth was an uncanny
ability to pick any lock made by man. It took "Jose" less time to get into
the "Wine Cellar" than it did for the person with the keys.
Now F-8's just didn't do that much flying during darkness in those days, so
every night was movie night. Now we had never heard of wine coolers (in fact
I don't know if they had even been invented then), so we made wine punch. It
sat on a desk next to the movie projector in a large stainless steel
container that was "borrowed" from the galley. It usually contained four
bottles of wine (assorted), ice cubes, and some fruit. Sometimes someone
would even slice up the fruit.
Afterward the duty JO's would then spend his time filling the bottles with
colored water and re cork them so they could be replaced in their original
boxes the next "movie night".
There was enough wine to last almost the entire six month cruise. As our
cruise came to an end we were in the eastern Med (Turkey and Greece were
having their annual argument over Cypress or something), and I won the
drawing to go to Rota on the COD with our variety pack booze orders.
Somewhere between the eastern Med and Rota the great wine theft was
discovered. Of course nothing official could be done, but our squadron came
under immediate suspicion as everyone always smiled when they saw one of the
two wine merchants, and some JO's even developed the habit of giggling
behind their backs.
As for the variety packs, I bought five bottles of French VFO Cognac at IIRC
approximately $40 each. They were selling for about $250 each in the US. I
am not a Cognac expert or drinker, they were a gift to my father-in-law.
When he passed at age 76 in 1994, he still had 1/2 bottle left. After the
funeral, my brother-in-law and I each took a drink and poured the rest on
his coffin before the vault was lowered into place. May he rest in peace.
By the way, do any of you know what the best selling item is in the ships
store after you have been underway for a week or more? It is Listerien. The
alcoholics say Listerien and Cola is pretty good. (I use Scope so I don't
know or care if I spelled Listerien right or not, besides anyone who can
only spell a word one way is handicapped).
--
Red Rider
(J-V-B Triangle) We Shoot For Accuracy
tria...@gibralter.net IBS/NBRSA/NRA
"I may have a bad memory, but I have over 40 years of diaries, log books and
notes".
"John Randolph" <REMOVEjr...@home.com> wrote in message
news:XYfW5.29343$I5.5...@news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com...
> When Forrestal dropped anchor in the port of Malta in 1965, a number of
> ship's boats were kept busy for several days going to and from the docks
of
> the major liquor distributors. Each squadron had mailed in their orders
and
> each used enlisted men to load and unload the boats with case after case
of
> very cheap booze. For example, I bought a case of 40 oz. bottles of
Johnny
> Walker Black Label Scotch for $1.40 a bottle. There was no effort made to
> hide this activity and those of us who were off the ship when our booze
> arrived found it stacked up in our staterooms when we returned.
>
John Randolph
padlock
>on the door
Hey Red, "on the door?" the "door?" Lol.
On my '65 Med cruise on Forrestal, listerine was primarily used to wash down
one's lizard after exercising him.
John
"Red Rider" <tria...@gibralter.net> wrote in message
news:gEyW5.17094$4k2.6...@news-east.usenetserver.com...
Drew Johnson
> On my '65 Med cruise on Forrestal, listerine was primarily used to wash down
> one's lizard after exercising him.
You guys must have been exercising your lizards in some pretty nasty places. . .LOL
Better not let the PITA people hear about his. .
John Randolph
Well, the nastiness of the place was directly proportional to the length of
the lizard's leash.
"Drew Johnson" <capt...@flash.net> wrote in message
news:3A2AC523...@flash.net...
> John Randolph wrote:
>
> > On my '65 Med cruise on Forrestal, listerine was primarily used to wash
down
> > one's lizard after exercising him.
>
José Herculano
down
> one's lizard after exercising him.
Either the volatile component of listerine is pretty low, or you'd have a
pretty regretful lizard afterwards! Reminds me the story of the lady, the
lizard and the rum ice-cream. Ooopppsss. Ushing now...
--
José Herculano
Red Rider
BTW if you and the others have heard the story before, please don't mention
the Air Staff Officers name. Later in the S.E. Asian War Games he decided he
didn't really want to be CNO and redeemed himself, becoming a very well
respected aviator flying with "Bloody 16"
-
-
-
I can see with my glasses, My false teeth fit fine, My hearing aids work,
But lord I miss my mind.
--
Red Rider
(J-V-B Triangle) We Shoot For Accuracy
tria...@gibralter.net IBS/NBRSA/NRA
"John Randolph" <REMOVEjr...@home.com> wrote in message
news:X8zW5.33521$I5.5...@news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com...
Red Rider
I understand that the package store in Naples was always out of "151 and
Everclear".
--
Red Rider
(J-V-B Triangle) We Shoot For Accuracy
tria...@gibralter.net IBS/NBRSA/NRA
"I may have a bad memory, but I have over 40 years of diaries, log books and
notes".
"John Randolph" <REMOVEjr...@home.com> wrote in message
news:5EzW5.33612$I5.5...@news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com...
> >You guys must have been exercising your lizards in some pretty nasty
places
>
> Well, the nastiness of the place was directly proportional to the length
of
> the lizard's leash.
>
> "Drew Johnson" <capt...@flash.net> wrote in message
> news:3A2AC523...@flash.net...
> > John Randolph wrote:
> >
> > > On my '65 Med cruise on Forrestal, listerine was primarily used to
wash
> down
> > > one's lizard after exercising him.
> >
The_Count
liaison. The Customs agents were flown aboard before we reached Hawaii and
went through all the paperwork. Everything was OK until the head agent
explained that for the booze to be duty-free, it had to be accompanied by
the declarer, who had to have been out of the U.S. for six months.
That's when the census was taken and each squadron took up a collection to
ransom out their absent shipmates' liquor. As I recall, the fee was $10.80
per U.S. wine gallon, and one of the complexities was computing U.S.
quantities from Imperial measure on the stuff to determine the actual amount
due.
The senior Customs agent was a fine gentleman, Bob St. Clair. He made
things as easy as he could, but his job was collecting the revenue due the
U.S. Government. I also encountered Bob at the end of two later cruises on
Kitty Hawk. One of the Kitty Hawk cruises had the same problem with early
returnees.
I had in interesting experience with Canadian customs in '82. I was playing
geographical bachelor while assigned to USS Tripoli; I had left my family at
Whidbey Island because the ship was going to be deployed so much and both my
children were in high school at Whidbey. I was offered no-cost TAD orders
(basket leave)to be the liaison officer for the ship's trip to Vancouver, BC
as guest ship for their Sea Festival.
I drove up from San Diego, spent the night at Whidbey, and the next morning
my wife and I drove up to Vancouver to make the official calls and
arrangements. The CO and XO had given me orders to make arrangements that
all our hospitality be reciprocated "First Cabin". I was supposed to
procure the liquor for our events through the Consulate. The Consular
Secretary (there hadn't been a Consul there for several years) was totally
fanatic about a possible international incident on his watch. He gave me a
price list on the liquor, of which each bottle would be individually
serial-numbered and the empty returned to the Consulate for accounting.
I took one look at the price list, checked on Canadian import duties, and
saw that I would be way ahead to buy the booze at the NAS Whidbey Package
Store and pay the duty on it on my way back across the border.
So I arrive at the Canadian border with $950 worth of booze under a blanket
in the back of my station wagon, walk into the Canadian Customs office, and
present my orders as Liaison Officer with a copy of the invoice for the
liquor. The Customs Officer examines the paperwork, steps back from the
counter, looks me right in the eye and says: "Sir, will you be present, in
person, at the functions where this liquor is served?" I said: "Yes, I
will."
Whereupon he pulled out a rubber stamp, banged every piece of paper in
sight, and said: "Thank you very much, sir; it's a pleasure to have you
folks as a guest. Enjoy your stay with us!" No duty charged, no sweat, we
had a hell of a fun time.
Rick
"John Randolph" <REMOVEjr...@home.com> wrote in message
news:LMvW5.33000$I5.5...@news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com...
,<snip> Hi Gary,
Bill Kambic
<snipped for brevity>
USS INTREPID deployed to Europe in the summer of ’71 and one of the scheduled
ports of call was Valetta. Our first port was Lisbon, and an air group officer
of some experience took orders from each of the squadrons and placed a
consolidated booze order with a ships chandler in Malta (Charlie Griek (sp),
IIRC). Upon leaving Lisbon we were informed that our stop in Malta had been
deleted due to the hostility of the Maltese government, and that we would spend
7 days in Naples, instead. Us nuggets were advised by the “gray beards” that we
had just been well and truly f****d, but such was life. Since no money had
changed hands, we also forgot about the booze order.
We arrived in Naples a few weeks later and everybody promptly scattered to the
four winds. I, myself, got one of the best deals ever by getting assigned to an
almost all JO detachment to Sigonella for FCLPs prior to upcoming night CQ.
A day or two after the ship anchored, a barge arrived in Naples from Malta
consigned to the USS INTREPID. Italian customs would not allow it to land when
they learned that it was full of booze. It was our order. After some
negotiations, the ship accepted it and a working party stowed the stuff in a
locked compartment. The E’s who did the unloading were kind of pissed (and
rightly so) to have to handle the Air Group’s liquor, so there was a fair amount
of breakage. IIRC, the CAG Ops Officer wrote a personal check for the order
and then had to collect from each individual officer before we sailed to that he
could get the money into his account.
As soon as we started filtering in we learned about the whole thing and
everybody quickly ponied up the money for their order (not knowing how much of
it might have gotten broken) and the Ops Officer didn’t bounce any checks. I
understand that the Ship’s XO chewed out the CAG and Squadron CO’s over the
whole thing. Again, we did not think any more about it and figured we would get
our orders upon arrival in CONUS.
About a month later (we were operating in the Bay of Biscay, IIRC) the Ship
decided that they needed the storeroom where the booze was and we had to move
it. The CAG decided that each officer was to keep it in his stateroom. To
avoid bad feeling with the ship’s company, it was decided that each officer
would move his own stuff over a period of a few days, after taps, when there
would be fewer folks moving about. This worked, but the Ship got impatient.
On one VERY foggy day, when we had cancelled flight ops, the “word” came down to
“move it.” I lived in “Sleepy Hollow,” an area above the after brow, right
below the flight deck. It was the only officer country in the “C” section, and
consisted of about 10 two man rooms. So all 20 of us put on our flight suits
and headed down to get our last loads (the storeroom was in the “A” section).
Since we were not flying, most of the aircraft were on the flight deck, and the
hanger deck was alive with volleyball, basketball, pugil stick contests, etc.
One of our LCDRs decided that for us to parade through that crowd, carrying
boxes of liquor would not be “cool.” Since there was no flight ops scheduled,
and the fog was “pea soup,” our best course of action would be to make our way
to the flight deck, go aft of the island, then back down to our staterooms. So
we did.
We did notice, however, an H-3 with its blades spread as we passed the island,
and saw a couple of Marines inside looking at us. We did not think anymore
about it, and continued on our way, quickly disappearing into the fog.
The next day at an AOM our skipper got up and said most emphatically that he did
NOT want to know which VS-27 officers had carried boxes of liquor across the
flight deck in front of Commander, Strike Force, U.S. Atlantic Fleet as he was
about to board his helo for the return flight to the Flagship! My roommate and
I willed ourselves to be invisible, and he never did find out who it was that
caused his ass to be chewed on by the ship’s CO!
We declared everything on our Customs forms, and the total bill for 4 cases of
hard liquor came to $55 and change. Which I promptly paid.
Bill Kambic, Bright Star Farm, Kingston, TN
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/1816
Mangalarga Marchador: Style, Stamina, Symmetry, Smoothness
John Randolph
<g>. Good story, Bill!
"Bill Kambic" <wka...@vic.com> wrote in message
news:3A2B2114...@vic.com...
J McEachen
until 1963. For some unknown reason, alcohol was never legally brought
back from a Med cruise aboard her in the early years. It was some kind
of tradition, unique to Forrestal, I was told.
And bringing cars back on deck ended about 1958 or 1959 with a balance
of payments crisis. By 1961-62 car salesmen came aboard (Navy Auto Sales
comes to mind, I bought a Beetle,) made the deal, and your car came by
commercial carrier to the port of your selection.
John Randolph
>car salesmen came aboard
That's the way it was on my '65 cruise. In fact, there were a whole slew of
vendors that followed the ship from port to port. The Captain authorized
them to come aboard when the ship was at anchor and set up tables in the
hangar bay to sell their wares. There was a guy whose business was based on
the British channel isle of Jersey who became very wealthy selling cars to
Med cruise ships. I pulled liberty with him a couple of times. I wish I
could recall his name.
Speaking of vehicles and ships, I just have to relate this story. The
Forrestal was anchored off Naples and the Special Services department had
barged their Volkswagon van in for the duration of the in-port period. The
day before scheduled departure, the van was loaded onto a barge which was
towed out to the ship by a tug . The weather was a bit rough that day and
the barge was pitching and rolling pretty good. It was just a few hundred
yards from the ship when the van broke loose and rolled off of the barge and
into the water. Now those old VWs were all but water-tight and that van
just floated merrily in the swells instead of sinking. The O.D. had
observed what happened and immediatly put a motor whale-boat into the water.
The whale-boat motored over to the van and pulled alongside. A young bosun
leaned over and grabbed the handle of the front passenger door to make it
fast to a line and accidently opened the door. Blub, blub, down she went.
Volkswagon executives in Germany heard about the demise of the ship's van
and how it had occurred. When we returned to Naples for our next port visit
there was a brand new Volkswagon van waiting to be presented to the ship by
Volkswagon. The only modification was in the form of four chrome nautical
cleats bolted along each side of the van.
John
"J McEachen" <jm...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3A31D9C4...@earthlink.net...
Ogden Johnson III
[Snip saga of tragic loss of MV LIBERTY VAN]
>Volkswagon executives in Germany heard about the demise of the ship's van
>and how it had occurred. When we returned to Naples for our next port visit
>there was a brand new Volkswagon van waiting to be presented to the ship by
>Volkswagon. The only modification was in the form of four chrome nautical
>cleats bolted along each side of the van.
From the mid-'50s through at least the '70s Volkswagen was *the* class
act among auto makers. The donation itself was PR, of course, but the
addition of the cleats was a typically Volkwagenonian touch of
practicality combined with humor.
OJ III
Pony
floated upside down back in the 60s?
Ogden Johnson III wrote in message ...