Enlisted pilots
Midlant
the Navy had 9 Enlisted pilots on active duty. He is now flying
commercially in Fl.
John
C.D. Damron
"Midlant" <wash...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:i31Ja.7582$ZE.6054@lakeread05...
> 1 1/2 years ago a QC(SEAL) retired as an Enlisted Pilot. At that time
> the Navy had 9 Enlisted pilots on active duty. He is now flying
> commercially in Fl.
I have read theat in 1962, the Navy had five enlisted pilots. Are you sure
your info is correct?
Longtailedlizard
According to the Museum of Naval Aviation the last NAP retired from active
duty in 1981.
http://www.naval-air.org/flightlog/EAGLES.asp
And what rating is QC? Only rating that starts with a Q is QM, Quartermaster.
Midlant
"C.D. Damron" <NOSPAM...@damrontech.com> >
> I have read theat in 1962, the Navy had five enlisted pilots. Are
you sure
> your info is correct?
I am sure. Kevin was an Enlisted pilot and a SEAL. I worked with him
everyday for over a year in uniform. Since he was an Enlisted pilot I
have no reason to doubt him when he said there were 9 of them. He also
rode a beautiful Panhead.
John
s.p.i.
You may want to recheck that...
http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/news/navywire/nws01/nws010515.txt
NWS15may-11. Building at NATTCenter Named for Navy's Last
Enlisted Pilot
By Art Giberson, "Gosport," NAS Pensacola
PENSACOLA, Fla. (NWS) -- The Navy's last enlisted sea
service pilot was lauded at NAS Pensacola's Naval Air
Technical Training Center (NATTCenter) recently when the Air
Traffic Control School there was dedicated in his name.
The person for whom Jones Hall is named, ACCM(NAP) Robert K.
Jones, retired from the Navy in 1981 after 37 years of
service. He was the Navy's last enlisted pilot when he
retired.
Between 1916 and 1981, more than 5,000 enlisted men of
the Navy, Marine Corps and Coast Guard served as enlisted
pilots.
NATTCenter's commanding officer, Capt. Ron Jaeh, told
his Sailors that naming the building in honor of Master
Chief Jones would ensure that they, and those who come after
them, would always remember the legacy of a unique breed of
naval aviators -- enlisted pilots.
The captain told a rather large contingent of former
enlisted pilots (the Silver Eagles) on hand to witness the
dedication, that today's Navy is in very good hands. "These
men and women you see standing here," the captain said, "are
the future of our Navy. They are smart, dedicated and every
bit as sincere as your and my generation were."
Jones enlisted in the Navy in August 1943, and after
graduating from machinist's mate school reported to USS
Aucilla (AO 56) for his first operational duty assignment.
While aboard Aucilla, he took part in the D-Day invasion in
Europe. Following the end of the war in Europe, Aucilla was
transferred to the Pacific.
It was during his wartime tour in the Pacific that Jones
decided to apply for flight training despite the fact that
he had never been in an airplane.
Earning his Wings of Gold as a naval aviation pilot
(NAP) in 1947, Jones spent the rest of career flying a
variety of naval aircraft. By the time he retired in 1981,
he had qualified in a total of 27 different aircraft,
including seven different types of jet aircraft.
In 1967, while most of his peers who had completed 20
years of service were retiring, Jones reported to the Naval
Support Activity, Ton Son Nhut Air Base, South Vietnam, for
duty as one of only four enlisted pilots in Southeast Asia
(the other three were Marines).
"We were basically a logistics outfit," Jones said. "I
flew an R4-D for the most part, on a regular route between
Saigon and Da Nang, but occasionally I flew co-pilot in
helicopters."
A Veteran of World War II and Korea, Jones said going to
Vietnam was something he felt that he had to do.
"It was a decision I have never regretted," said Jones,
"But on the other hand, I wasn't flying missions over Hanoi
or Haiphong either."
At the time of his retirement in 1981 as the Navy's last
enlisted pilot, Jones was assigned to NAS Pensacola's air
operations department as a C-130 pilot and had logged more
than 11,600 flight hours.
C.D. Damron
Enlisted aircrewman, which included B/N's, were around a little longer, but
I don't believe that any NAPs were still around in 1991.
I guess it is possible that he had been an NAP, but had not had a piloting
assignment in a decade or two. Did he wear silver wings or a SEAL crest?
Jim Strand
wrote:
>You may want to recheck that...
>
Nice
***********************************************
ACC USN ret.
NKX, BIKF, NAB, CV-63, NIR
67-69 69-71 71-74 77-80 80-85
&
74-77
Co-founder of newsgroup - RAMN
Anti-spam measures in action.
For e-mail response delete "nospam"
***********************************************
Chuck
including B/N's...." <snip>
http:www.nebna.org is the dedicated website for the 114 USN Heavy Attack
enlisted bombardier navigators who flew primarily in the P2V-3B
Neptunes, AJ-1/2 Savages, A3D-2 Skywarriors and RA-5C Vigilantes.
Photo at
http://community.webtv.net/cerebralhush/USNavyHeavyAttack/page18.html
Chuck (VC-8, VAH-1, FAITCLANT, VQ-2 - 1953 to 1963)
HEAVY ATTACK COMPOSITE (VC-5,6,7,8,9) WEBSITE
http://community.webtv.net/charles379/USNComposite
FAIRECONRON ONE AND TWO (VQ-1/2) CASUALTIES
http://www.anzwers.org/free/navyscpo4/Chuck_Huber_AirCrew.html
Midlant
public release and I've blown it. I believe he flew C-12's but could be
wrong. We mostly talked about bikes. You can read and believe all the
articles you find.
John
Midlant
Longtailedlizard
Special Ops in the UC-12B? The Navy does own some RC-12's that are used for
range surveilliance.
http://www.janes.com/micro_sites/paris/aircraftdata/raytheon_200_01.shtml
C.D. Damron
Your friend is full of shit.
I'm now betting that he isn't a SEAL, either. Give me a last name and I can
find out.
Even while the F-117 program was black, its pilots were free to describe
themselves as pilots, just not identify their aircraft or mission. Unless
doing so would disrupt a specific operation, SEAL's may also reveal their
affiliation.
Midlant
"C.D. Damron"
>
> Your friend is full of shit.
>
> I'm now betting that he isn't a SEAL, either. Give me a last name and
I can
> find out.
That isn't going to happen. Your post is insulting. My friend was a SEAL
as he filled that billet, wore the Trident, and... was a SEAL. I s'pose
he wasn't a Sailor either or a Chief? By your reasoning he came in to
the command every day and our RADM went along with the ruse for several
years? r....i......g.....h.......t......!
I am absolutely NOT going to post his name on the net.
John
C.D. Damron
> That isn't going to happen. Your post is insulting. My friend was a SEAL
> as he filled that billet, wore the Trident, and... was a SEAL. I s'pose
> he wasn't a Sailor either or a Chief? By your reasoning he came in to
> the command every day and our RADM went along with the ruse for several
> years? r....i......g.....h.......t......!
>
> I am absolutely NOT going to post his name on the net.
Listen, you are the one with a credibility problem, not me.
You are the one that has cast doubt on your friend's credentials by your
claims, which are not supported by some pretty respected sources. I do not
believe that your friend retired as a NAP and I do not believe that there
was another pipeline for an enlisted man to become a Navy pilot other than
the NAP program.
If my post is insulting, take me up on a bet. I'm sure some others would
be happy to join in on some of the action.
I stand ready to eat crow!
If your friend's timeline didn't end with a retirement in 2001 or 2002 [in
my previous post, I typed 1991 while I was thinking 2001], it might be
credible. If we look at the last NAP class, your friend would have had a
forty or fifty year Navy career. Such a career that included SEAL duty and
silver wings would have been front page Navy Times news material. An
earlier retirement could have suggested an oversight on the part of the Navy
as a result of your friend leaving the aviation community.
Navy pilots don't keep their wings a secret, gold or silver.
Was your friend a SEAL? I don't know. Gimme a name via email and I can
confirm it and post the results without posting his name. Is your friend
a pilot? I don't know. We could find that out. Is your friend a Navy
pilot? I seriously doubt it, but we can verify that too thanks to FOI.
Midlant
"C.D. Damron" >
> Listen, you are the one with a credibility problem, not me.
I'm not here to argue this any further.
> You are the one that has cast doubt on your friend's credentials by
your
> claims, which are not supported by some pretty respected sources. I
do not
> believe that your friend retired as a NAP and I do not believe that
there
> was another pipeline for an enlisted man to become a Navy pilot other
than
> the NAP program.
He did not go through any program. He was trained to fly and fly he did.
>
> If my post is insulting, take me up on a bet. I'm sure some others
would
> be happy to join in on some of the action.
> I stand ready to eat crow!
You already have.
> If your friend's timeline didn't end with a retirement in 2001 or 2002
[in
> my previous post, I typed 1991 while I was thinking 2001], it might be
> credible.
He did retire in 2001 and as I stated in the original email he now flies
commericial in FL.
>
> Was your friend a SEAL? I don't know. Gimme a name via email and I
can
> confirm it and post the results without posting his name. Is your
friend
> a pilot? I don't know. We could find that out. Is your friend a
Navy
> pilot? I seriously doubt it, but we can verify that too thanks to
FOI.
I'm not sending you anything as I don't know you. You are not the
confirming source.
Send a source email (not spamm proofing no hotmail, etc...) and I will
(maybe) have his replacement email you. Would that satisfy your ego?
Midlant
C.D. Damron
> He did not go through any program. He was trained to fly and fly he did.
Mr. Sherman,
As an E-6 or better, doesn't that sound strange to you?
Are you playing a word game, here? Are you saying that he was trained as a
pilot, not necessarily by the Navy, and somebody let him fly a Navy
aircraft? That, I would believe. That is not uncommon. My father, a
retired NFO, was trained to fly (private and commercial) and has flown a
number of Navy planes - that doesn't make him a Navy pilot.
But, it's not your responsibility to satisfy my doubts or verify your
friend's claims. If you want me to, I can verify such claims. If you want
to, you can do it yourself.
I sincerely thank you for your military service.
By the way, my father was a Navy Aircrewman prior to his commission. The
subject of enlisted crews is of some interest to me.
C.D. Damron
> http://www.cotf.navy.mil/
Nice site. I'm not sure why you posted it, but it is a nice site.
Longtailedlizard
>claims, which are not supported by some pretty respected sources. I do not
>believe that your friend retired as a NAP and I do not believe that there
>was another pipeline for an enlisted man to become a Navy pilot other than
>the NAP program.
>
>If my post is insulting, take me up on a bet. I'm sure some others would
>be happy to join in on some of the action.
>I stand ready to eat crow!
>
>If your friend's timeline didn't end with a retirement in 2001 or 2002 [in
>my previous post, I typed 1991 while I was thinking 2001], it might be
>credible. If we look at the last NAP class, your friend would have had a
>forty or fifty year Navy career. Such a career that included SEAL duty and
>silver wings would have been front page Navy Times news material. An
>earlier retirement could have suggested an oversight on the part of the Navy
>as a result of your friend leaving the aviation community.
>
>Navy pilots don't keep their wings a secret, gold or silver.
>
>Was your friend a SEAL? I don't know. Gimme a name via email and I can
>confirm it and post the results without posting his name. Is your friend
>a pilot? I don't know. We could find that out. Is your friend a Navy
>pilot? I seriously doubt it, but we can verify that too thanks to FOI.
>
>
specialist) but hell anymore, who doesn't have those.
With the timeline that we were presented and with what we know of the NAP
program, this guy is not flying "commercially" as an ATP (air transport pilot),
Mandatory retirement age is 60, so that takes him out of any regularly shcedule
airlines, commuters, charters or cargo carriers.
So what we have is a retired Naval Pilot/SEAL, towing banners over the beach
or flying canceled bank checks at night for retirement.
That's one heck of a way to spend retirement....
J
Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal
8dvJa.756393$Si4.8...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net, "C.D. Damron"
<NOSPAM...@damrontech.com> wrote:
IIRC, I've heard wind that a few SPECOPS dudes (not just SEALS but from
other services too) were trained to fly as civilians (paid for by the
military) and occasionally flew civilian aircraft for training missions...
Jumps etc...
It's been a while since I heard/read that, and while it raised an eyebrow, I
didn't pay it much further attention.
Might provide the solution to your discussion.
These guys didn't wear the "wings of gold." They just had civilian pilot
licenses. Same way the Navy Balloon Team members didn't wear balloon wings.
--Woody
C.D. Damron
"Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" <doug...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:BB1C5177.586B%doug...@earthlink.net...
> IIRC, I've heard wind that a few SPECOPS dudes (not just SEALS but from
> other services too) were trained to fly as civilians (paid for by the
> military) and occasionally flew civilian aircraft for training missions...
> Jumps etc...
That sounds reasonable. I have heard that SEALs rent Twin Otters and other
aircraft in that class to maintain jump proficiency. It's not even a
stretch to accept that they might be allowed to fly aircraft in the
inventory.
In the 60's, a number of NFO's had the opportunity to fly aircraft in
support of primary B/N training in aircraft in which they were rated. No
heavy iron - T-34's, T-41's, and light twins.
A number of NFO's racked up big "pilot hours"s aboard P-3's and C-130's.
When my father was stationed in Alaska, he couldn't hitch too many jet
rides.
Ron
> specialist) but hell anymore, who doesn't have those.
> With the timeline that we were presented and with what we know of the NAP
> program, this guy is not flying "commercially" as an ATP (air transport pilot),
> Mandatory retirement age is 60, so that takes him out of any regularly shcedule
> airlines, commuters, charters or cargo carriers.
> So what we have is a retired Naval Pilot/SEAL, towing banners over the beach
> or flying canceled bank checks at night for retirement.
> That's one heck of a way to spend retirement....
J
whereby 35 enlisteds (E-5 thru E-7) went thru flight training and
became LDOs, serving as instructors in primary flight training. It
was touted to be a combination "career enhancer" for enlisteds and
relief for fleet pilots who chafed at flight instructor status.
They were designated Naval Aviators, however, not NAPs. I suppose
it's not inconceivable that some might have reverted to enlisted
status once the program was deemed to have flopped...and maybe one or
two later became SEALs. That might account for the timeline. But
I still have trouble swallowing qualified SEAL/designated Naval
Aviator AND enlisted without having seen such unusualness promoed
to the nth degree by the Navy PR mill, special ops or no.
Longtailedlizard
>> other services too) were trained to fly as civilians (paid for by the
>> military) and occasionally flew civilian aircraft for training missions...
>> Jumps etc...
>
Sure that sounds all well and good, but getting back to the original claim
" 1 1/2 years ago a QC(SEAL) retired as an Enlisted Pilot. At that
time
the Navy had 9 Enlisted pilots on active duty."
This I find to be one of two things, first and the worse, a case of a claim
to be something that he's not. We all know the stories of so called Vietnam
Vets, Korean War Vets, who although, were vets in the "support roles" who know
enough to claim tobe "war vets".
Second which I think seems to be the case, the original poster simply
misunderstood what he was told.
When I was in A school in Memphis, I took flying lessons, and it was from a
retired Naval Aviator, but that doesn't make me a Naval Pilot or Naval Aviator.
I was also a Airborne Communications and Navigation Systems Technician on the
Advanced Strike Fighter Training contract won by Lockheed Support Systems. I
use to go to sea as a civilian.
Wow, what a mouthful, sounds great, but I worked for Lockheed as a avionics
tech when they won the VT contracts, I pulled ARC-51 radio's out of 30 year old
TA-4J's
and went aboard the Lexington for about 2 weeks as a time. Civilian techs were
considered to be military equivelent of an E-5, so we "DID NOT" have officer
quarters.
I was also a contract agent to the DEA.
WOW!!!!!!!
Yeap, sure was, I was hired by a company that had a contract to maintain the
DEA's airplanes. Pulled and put in alot of King KX155 Nav/Comm radio's.
Also when I was on active duty, some of the enlisted crewmen had 50/60
takeoff and landings under there belt. They sure did.
In the UH-1N, when we did a compass swing, the pilot would fly the Huey over
to the compass rose and they would let a crewmen sit in the leftt seat
(aircraft commanders or the pilot in charge, sit in the right in helicopters),
takeoff and hover 5 feet, move several feet to the compass headings and land.
Did this many times. Henceforth the many logged takeoff and landings.
Anyway, we know that the last enlisted pilot retired from active duty in
1981.
J
Longtailedlizard
> whereby 35 enlisteds (E-5 thru E-7) went thru flight training and
> became LDOs, serving as instructors in primary flight training. It
> was touted to be a combination "career enhancer" for enlisteds and
> relief for fleet pilots who chafed at flight instructor status.
>
> They were designated Naval Aviators, however, not NAPs. I suppose
> it's not inconceivable that some might have reverted to enlisted
> status once the program was deemed to have flopped...and maybe one or
> two later became SEALs. That might account for the timeline. But
> I still have trouble swallowing qualified SEAL/designated Naval
> Aviator AND enlisted without having seen such unusualness promoed
> to the nth degree by the Navy PR mill, special ops or no.
>
>
>
Ron,
Having been stationed at NAS Pensacola, and NAS Meridian, from 83 to 89 are
you referring to the NAVCAD program.
I'm not to clear on the details, but isn't this where going through pilot
training, they were cadets, if they graduated from training they were
commissioned, and if they did'nt they went back home or to there former rank?
J
Jake Donovan
entered the program at the paygrade of an E4-5 and when you completed flight
school, you were commissioned. 90% of the commissioned NAVCADs flew in the
E2/C2 community. Part of your contract was to complete your degree (4 year)
within the next 6 years after your commissioning.
This was not a new program but a resurrection of an old one, one that has
been brought up again several times.
As for the Enlisted Pilot. Sorry- the last Navy Enlisted Pilot retired in
1981. If, in fact he was also a SEAL, the time frame just for his training
would have taken years. I personally know of no Naval Aviator that is also
an active SEAL. (JAG would be soooo jealous!)
No matter what mission a Naval Aviator is flying (enlisted or officer) he
still wears his wings. He may not be able to divulge the aircraft he is
flying, such as in the 1st 7 years of the F117 program where there were
several USNTPS grads involved, (Ken Grubs, Myself...) but it NEVER stopped
us from flying into Miramar for a weekend in tearing the place apart and
pissing off the Base CO and others as they knew we were involved in a Black
Program and we off limits. (g)
The Flying SEAL flew C-12s? All facts in, what mission would a SEAL fly a
C-12 in? Jump practice? I doubt it as there are too many other platforms
better suited.
The Navy has records on all Aviators and the SEAL teams keep records of
their BUD/S classes.
Ask your "accomplished" friend what BUD/S class he was in.
MILDANT - You don't want to provide anyone here any info, and I actually
understand that but try this link. You can find out all you want without
putting your name in the open.
JD
Capt USN
"Longtailedlizard" <longtail...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030623093845...@mb-m19.aol.com...
Bill Kambic
> This was the NAVCAD Program. Min requirements were 2 years of college.
You
> entered the program at the paygrade of an E4-5 and when you completed
flight
> school, you were commissioned. 90% of the commissioned NAVCADs flew in
the
> E2/C2 community. Part of your contract was to complete your degree (4
year)
> within the next 6 years after your commissioning.
>
> This was not a new program but a resurrection of an old one, one that has
> been brought up again several times.
I was an instructor at VT-28 from '78-81. IIRC, the first of these guys
were showing up about the time I left. This program was similar to NAVCAD
but with a crucial difference: upon commission these guys were NOT
1310/1315 but had a uique LDO designator (I don't remember the number).
They bore all the limitations of an LDO commission. They were intended to
be "grunt" pilots, doing the shore duty (and some sea duty) jobs that "real"
aviators did not want to do.
I was unaware of the short life of the program, but this does not surprise
me. The NAVAIR system is just not set up for "pilot only" officers.
Bill Kambic
Jake Donovan
They held the LDO until they finished their degree and augmented. (pilots
were 1312) There is currently still a F14 driver who went thru this program.
It was also up to each individual to augment so many stayed LDO. A good
friend of mine "Doc" was an Aviator LDO LCDR and was project manager for the
JPATS in Corpus for a few years.
By 83-84 it has been officially named NAVCAD again. A few changes in the
wording here and there but it was basically the same program.
JD
"Bill Kambic" <wka...@vic.com> wrote in message
news:3ef7539f$1...@news.vic.com...
Ron
> Having been stationed at NAS Pensacola, and NAS Meridian, from 83 to 89 are
> you referring to the NAVCAD program.
> I'm not to clear on the details, but isn't this where going through pilot
> training, they were cadets, if they graduated from training they were
> commissioned, and if they did'nt they went back home or to there former rank?
J
I was at P'cola mid to late 60s when the NAVCAD/MARCAD program
was in full bloom, so I'm familiar with it. This was a different
deal altogether. Candidates were selected from the ranks of regular
Navy enlisteds, for the express purpose of becoming primary flight
instructors. Quote below from Naval Historical Center site describes:
"July 31, l980 -- A Limited Duty Officer aviator program for second
class, first class and chief petty officers, E-5 through E-7, was
established with the first 35 personnel selected and scheduled
to report to NAS Pensacola in April l981. After completing aviation
officer indoctrination, primary flight and maritime (prop) training,
the new officers were assigned to an initial three-year tour as
primary flight instructors. Major objectives of the program were to
improve utilization and retention of aviators, to provide further
upward mobility for enlisted personnel, improve the flight instructor
program and provide for replacement of aviators in selected shipboard
billets."
No further reference to what became of the program, but obviously
it fizzled after a few years, or it would be more well-known. The
successfuls were designated Naval Aviators, however, not NAPs.
The last NAPs in the pipeline were trained in '47. SEALs were
not invented until '62, so for a NAP to become a SEAL, he would have
to have been an extremely healthy/tough old bird. Not inconceivable, I
suppose, but highly unlikely, and AFAIK no NAP ever completed BUD/S.
-- rn
Jim Strand
wrote:
Any chance you know of Jan Weiss? Former AC2 I had the privileged to
recommend for the program. Years later I ran into her when she was
stationed at Corpus Christie as a C-12 instructor. Rumor was later
she was Asst Airboss on the Lex.
George Shirley
the fleet as Airmen Apprentices. Had one working for me in the
maintenance office at VR-1 in 1958. Good guy just couldn't handle flying
worth a hoot. Best educated AA I ever met, went to Berea College in
Kentucky. Ben pulled two years as an AA and got out no ambition to
strike for anything once he failed NavCad.
George
Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal
<wka...@vic.com> wrote:
I agree, Bill.
In fact, as a student in VT-2, I remember one of those LDO aviators. He was
NOT a NAVCAD (of which I've known many and in fact have about 3 in my
reserve squadron now).
As I remember, they didn't let that particular guy fly instructional hops
except for FAM's and FCF's. I also remember that he logged a TON of hours
somehow.
--Woody
Midlant
"C.D. Damron"
Mr Damron, I talked with Steve, Kevin's replacement this afternoon to
make sure I hadn't drank too much bug juice. Kevin was taught to fly
while stationed at DEVRON. Since you wished to verify him, you should
know what DEVRON is (You would have to be a SEAL to do this I would
imagine). There are or were many Enlisted chosen to do this. Some of
the brass became upset over time and the EP's were either commissioned
or stayed Enlisted (their choice). They flew rotary wing, C-130, C-141,
C-17 and other transport aircraft.
Steve was not sure if a civilian agency or the Navy flight schools
taught them, but they flew Navy aircraft just as the Officers.
Do not take this to mean that he flew civilian aircraft such as
Cessna's. My last 2 MCPO's both flew and owned their own planes but they
did not fly for the Navy. They were private pilots.
Kevin and the others flew Navy aircraft just as the Officers do.
I posted our website yesterday. If you wish, you may navigate the site
and call the correct people. If you are as smart as you let on, then you
should have no problem navigating the site to find the correct office
code which will be Steve. You may ask him who he is and about Kevin.
Enjoy the conversation.
Want some salt for the crow you offered 2 days ago? Hot sauce may be
better.
John
Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal
"Longtailedlizard" <longtail...@aol.com> wrote:
>>> IIRC, I've heard wind that a few SPECOPS dudes (not just SEALS but from
>>> other services too) were trained to fly as civilians (paid for by the
>>> military) and occasionally flew civilian aircraft for training missions...
>>> Jumps etc...
>>
>
> Sure that sounds all well and good, but getting back to the original claim
> " 1 1/2 years ago a QC(SEAL) retired as an Enlisted Pilot. At that
> time
> the Navy had 9 Enlisted pilots on active duty."
Yep. I hear you. I think that the wording is important here. First of
all, we cleared up the fact that the guy was a QM. 2nd, he never claimed
the dude was a Naval Aviator, just an "enlisted pilot." Based on the fact
that SEALS were trained as pilots in the civilian world using military
dollars, they were pilots, just not designated as such. I don't believe
they flew military aircraft either nor did they draw flight pay.
--Woody
Midlant
"Longtailedlizard" > This I find to be one of two things, first and
the worse, a case of a claim
> to be something that he's not. We all know the stories of so called
Vietnam
> Vets, Korean War Vets, who although, were vets in the "support roles"
who know
> enough to claim tobe "war vets".
> Second which I think seems to be the case, the original poster
simply
> misunderstood what he was told.
No and this information which turned into an argument is getting old.
See my previous post on how to verify this for yourself. Call Steve. He
should have no problem discussing this as it doesn't seem to be a matter
of security. You can find the correct code very easily without me
revealing his last name. Go from there.
John
Midlant
"Jake Donovan" >
> The Navy has records on all Aviators and the SEAL teams keep records
of
> their BUD/S classes.
>
> Ask your "accomplished" friend what BUD/S class he was in.
>
> MILDANT - You don't want to provide anyone here any info, and I
actually
> understand that but try this link. You can find out all you want
without
> putting your name in the open.
>
> http://www.authentiseal.org
>
> JD
> Capt USN
JD, when you were in uniform, did you question the authenticity of every
Officer, Chief or Enlisted that showed up in uniform each and every day?
Neither do I. We are an Echelon II command and Kevin was our SEAL rep
for Undersea Warfare Systems. He wore the big Anheiser Busch can opener
or whatever it is commonly referred to (The Trident). He was a SEAL and
he was Enlisted and he was an Enlisted Pilot. Those were his quals. He
flew for the Navy. Prior to getting his flight training he took teams
afield and served in Panama which was his last "mission". It was the
only one he talked about and that was at his retirement when he broke
down crying as he related the story of finding an abandoned baby in the
middle of a fire fight.
I don't need the above link. I don't need the link to verify the EOD
MCPO or the 2 SEAL Officers that are there with me either. They have a
job to do and do it well. They're good volleyball players too.
If you are still active you may shoot me an email at the web site I
posted or call the 534 phone number. Then it will be kept through
navy.mil addy's and Steve or one of the SEAL O's can verify Kevin's rate
to you then you may post it here if you like but, not his last name.
John
Midlant
"Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" > Yep. I hear you. I think that the
wording is important here. First of
> all, we cleared up the fact that the guy was a QM. 2nd, he never
claimed
> the dude was a Naval Aviator, just an "enlisted pilot." Based on the
fact
> that SEALS were trained as pilots in the civilian world using military
> dollars, they were pilots, just not designated as such. I don't
believe
> they flew military aircraft either nor did they draw flight pay.
He flew Navy aircraft and that was the billet he filled. I would assume
he drew flight pay. Don't know. His replacement has his card and if it
is his post Navy one, then I can give him a call and find out. If its
his COTF card, then it's useless as Steve is holding on to it for ....
just because.
John
C.D. Damron
> They flew rotary wing, C-130, C-141,
> C-17 and other transport aircraft.
This is getting interesting. Now, our enlisted Navy pilots are flying Air
Force heavy metal. It looks like you have weaved the NAP history back into
the thread, but the idea of an enlisted Navy pilot flying a C-17 in the 90's
or later is certainly food for thought - or something.
I don't know whether to pick up the phone or just wait until I'm dining with
a Navy Undersecretary, later this Summer.
Jake Donovan
another NAVCAD named Tomblin? Came out of VT 4. I think the CO at the time
was Brown.
JD
"Jim Strand" <chie...@go.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:im3ffvk34e7hf8138...@4ax.com...
Jake Donovan
I am active duty. I am also work closely with NAVAIR, Air Warfare and
CNATRA and can tell you 100% that there are NO enlisted members of the Navy
qualified to wear wings of gold or silver. He may be a SEAL, but he isn't a
Naval Aviator. He may wear a SEAL Device, but did you ever see him wear
Silver Naval Aviator Wings? And YES, I have questioned the badges and quals
of many officers and enlisted in my job. And YES, there have been more
cases than we'd like to admit of active duty members wearing devices they
were not qualified to wear. Officers and Enlisted alike.
Last Enlisted Naval Aviator actually retired in 1980 and not 81 even though
it has been recorded as such.
"Annual Report, Bureau of Naval Personnel Statistics (Report 15658),
discontinued in mid FY 1993. Figures for enlisted personnel in aviation
rates for FY 199395 provided^directly from BuPers, PERS 221D.Note-Does not
include men in training. Aviation rates under Navy for years 193339 include
general service ratings assigned to aviation duty. Enlisted pilots
for192026 are included under aviation rates. All Navy figures for World War
II period, 194045, include Coast Guard. Figures not available for Marine
Corps, 192029.594UNITED STATES NAVAL AVIATION 19101995Aviation Personnel
on Active Duty-Continued"
I for one would not climb into a FA18F with a WSO I have never met for a
test flight or PMH without 1st making sure he was indeed qauled. The
leather (or cloth patch) with NFO wings on it doesn't mean squat to me
unless I know the man personally, or I have seen his NATOPS jacket.
As for him being a pilot, sure, he could be, a private pilot. Heck, I know
civilian pilots who have been allowed pilot Naval aircraft. As for Secial
Ops in a C-12? There are no special OPs missions for C-12s. A C-12 is a
Beech (Raytheon) Super King Air Primary Function: Passenger and (UC12) cargo
airlift (Has been used for Med Evac and Maritime Aviation Training)
C141 and C17? Now you are either dreaming or your friend is pulling your
leg over your head and up somewhere else. The AF has its own Special Ops
teams and Pilots to fly them. I know of a couple of Navy test Pilots that
have a few hours in a C17, but to suggest an enlisted SEAL flys them
regularly for special OPs missions?
I talked to J B Hollyer yesterday and he laughed when I mentioned Special
OPs in C or UC-12s. Why? He is the former CO of VX20, NAWC - NAVAIR. They
do ALL testing and eval for the C-12. He did tell me the type may have been
used by other folks to run special OPs like drugs, but not in the Navy and
not by the SEALS. As for the C17 and C141, it took him a few minutes to pick
the phone back up and compose himself.
I may just call RADM Cocker tomorrow and put an end to this thread.
JD
Capt USN (no ret at the end of that title)
"Midlant" <wash...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:VnOJa.13840$ZE.4939@lakeread05...
Red Rider
It is possible that several SEALS that may have received civilian flight
training that was paid for by their command under a continuing education
program. Of course all the commands funds are NAVY funds, so it could be
said that the NAVY paid for their flight lessons. These SEALS were not Naval
Aviators or NAP's by any stretch. I also believe that the only NAVY aircraft
they were permitted to fly if any (after qualifying of course) were the
aircraft that were assigned, owned, rented to/by the station Flying Club,
Parachute Club etc.
In fact I learned to fly at NAS Monterey Ca in the mid '50, as a teenager
when my dad was stationed there. The aircraft that were there at the flying
club that were mainly used by the students at the Navy Postgrad School. (I
don't know if this was so they could continue to get flight pay or if it was
just for their enjoyment). I also had some time in Army Aircraft at the Ft
Ord Flying Club.
They (the SEALS) did not fly as an official duty. I doubt that they ever
piloted any aircraft involved in proficiency jumps. Proficiency jumps are an
official qualification, so it would have been an official aircraft piloted
by a Naval Aviator, or an aviator from another branch of the Armed Forces.
After I left the active duty '73 I was involved in the procurement of naval
aircraft and assets for 20 years until I retired in '94. I know what the
aircraft we were procuring were used for. I can confidently say that there
were no Naval operational aircraft piloted by enlisted men after 1981. (Well
other than bootleg time).
Red
Red Rider
program was. (I went through NAVCAD in 1960). The LDO aviation program
offered a commission as a Jg (?????) Limited Duty Officer with a guarantee
of 20 years service, and possibility of retiring as high as a Lt.Cmdr. I
also think that they required the applicants to have a min of 6 years
service (maybe it was be on 2d enlistment) and no more than 10 years service
upon commissioning. This would allow them to retire at their rank upon
completion of 20 years without having to revert or to exceed the 20 year
limit.
Unlike the NAVCAD program which would wash out the number needed to keep the
size down to meet requirements, the LDO program had a fairly high completion
rate. It was dropped and the NAVCAD program was brought back. It may be
possible that a few of those selected for the LDO program were SEALS. And I
guess that after completing 20 years service an LDO aviator it might have
been possible to revert to his permanent enlisted rank, but he wouldn't have
been continued as an aviator. The odds that this happened without a lot of
PR Flak, is even more unlikely than believing that O.J. was innocent. I
believe that this LDO program was similar to the Sub and Surface Warfare LDO
programs of that time where it was part of the contract that you had to
leave the Navy upon qualifying for retirement (transfer to the Fleet
Reserve) and couldn't revert.
But even if he was a SEAL, and former LDO Aviator who reverted there is no
way in hell that the Air Force is going to let a lowly enlisted man fly one
of their C-17's or a C-141's. Hell I did an exchange tour with the Air
Force, and they didn't even like me being on their base, let alone flying
their aircraft. They especially didn't like my landings. ROTFLMAO You know
their aircraft really are delicate.
Bill Kambic
> Any chance you know of Jan Weiss? Former AC2 I had the privileged to
> recommend for the program. Years later I ran into her when she was
> stationed at Corpus Christie as a C-12 instructor. Rumor was later
> she was Asst Airboss on the Lex.
I don't recall the name, but then, at my age, I sometimes don't recall what
I had for dinner yesterday!<g>
There were not a lot of female students in those days and there were even
fewer NAVCADs. She probably came through after I left.
Bill Kambic
If, by any act, error, or omission, I have, intentionally or
unintentionally, displayed any breedist, disciplinist, sexist, racist,
culturalist, nationalist, regionalist, localist, ageist, lookist, ableist,
sizeist, speciesist, intellectualist, socioeconomicist, ethnocentrist,
phallocentrist, heteropatriarchalist, or other violation of the rules of
political correctness, known or unknown, I am not sorry and I encourage you
to get over it.
Pechs1
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer
Leanne
news:20030624095658...@mb-m25.aol.com...
> Were NAP wings gold or silver? Same shape as Officer Aviator wings???
Take a look here..
http://enlistedpilot.hypermart.net/silver.htm
Leanne
Jake Donovan
One major difference in the LDO program is they went to LDO school and were
commissioned BEFORE they went to flight school. No matter how they did in
flight school, they would still be LDOs. They ended that program before
reinstating the NAVCAD of the 80's program. Commission was O1 with a few
minor exceptions of O2. (The O2's were usually longer term enlisted and or
higher college degrees.) The higher degree of successful completion of the
flight sylabus has a lot to do with the candidates mostingly coming out of
the aviation community with years of experience to start with in comparason
of the NAVCADs with NO prior time nor aviation experience. (Military that
is. One NAVCAD in 85 came into the program with 1900 hrs and a commercial
ticket.)
JD
"Red Rider" <tria...@apexmail.com> wrote in message
news:JtUJa.156677$jp.44...@twister.southeast.rr.com...
Longtailedlizard
>the brass became upset over time and the EP's were either commissioned
>or stayed Enlisted (their choice). They flew rotary wing, C-130, C-141,
>C-17 and other transport aircraft
Wellll, alllllrighty then!!!!!!
Perhaps the Prozac isn't working them, Shall we up the voltage???
Longtailedlizard
>See my previous post on how to verify this for yourself. Call Steve. He
>should have no problem discussing this as it doesn't seem to be a matter
>of security. You can find the correct code very easily without me
>revealing his last name. Go from there.
>
>John
>
>
>
>
pilot retired in the early 80's. I'll to go with that.
Ron
Good question. I have my dad's wings from late 40s, early 50s.
They are gold and identical. But he was a Mustang/AP (Ensign,
then Ltjg) during that time. I would imagine there was no
differentiation needed back then because the enlisted (non-Mustang)
AP rating badge (between crow and chevrons) was a gold embroidered
set of wings. I've searched the Naval Aviation history site and there
is no mention of gold/silver, or design, differences.
Mike Kanze
My Dad was also an AP who was later commissioned during WWII and remained
such, retiring in 1965 as a CDR. After a hitch in the prewar BB Navy (USS
TENNESSEE) and a year of broken service working for Douglas Aircraft in
Santa Monica, he re-enlisted in 1940 and was sent to Pensacola. He came out
of flight training as an Aviation Pilot First Class, and made Chief sometime
after the start of the war.
Completion of flight training got NAPs gold NA wings for the left breast and
a crow with gold wings as the rating badge. He still has his CAP crow,
framed along with all his other patches and hanging on his "I love me" wall
at home. ("CAP" was the designation during that era for Chief Aviation
Pilot, not today's form which would likely be "APC".)
--
Mike Kanze
436 Greenbrier Road
Half Moon Bay, California 94019-2259
USA
"History is not a schoolmistress. She does not teach. She is a prison
matron who punishes for unlearned lessons."
- Vasily O. Klyuchevsky (Russian historian, 1841 - 1911, quoted by George
Sviatov)
"Pechs1" <pec...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030624095658...@mb-m25.aol.com...
Midlant
I have Kevins retirement program and copied then sent it home as a JPEG
file. I will block out his name, but you may read for yourself. I was
incorrect when I said 9, it was 11 Enlisted pilots. You must send a good
email account not a public mailbox.
John
"C.D. Damron" <NOSPAM...@damrontech.com> wrote in message
news:iaPJa.5475$XG4.3632@rwcrnsc53...
Midlant
did.
Since you provided a solid email with spam proof that I can edit out, I
will be happy to email you his retirement program, last name blocked.
Our website is public and you may call the appropriate code and speak to
the SEAL Senior Chief or EOD Master Chief to verify the validity of
what I posted. Frankly I'm ashamed that those who have served and know
the Navy inside and out far better than I do, have a hard time believing
the truth that the Navy will do what is required to complete its mission
even if it requires deviating from existing programs.
"Jake Donovan" <jakedonov...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:smQJa.21975$H17.17298@lakeread03...
Pechs1
Ron
> Ditto Ron's post.
>
> My Dad was also an AP who was later commissioned during WWII and remained
> such, retiring in 1965 as a CDR. After a hitch in the prewar BB Navy (USS
> TENNESSEE) and a year of broken service working for Douglas Aircraft in
> Santa Monica, he re-enlisted in 1940 and was sent to Pensacola. He came out
> of flight training as an Aviation Pilot First Class, and made Chief sometime
> after the start of the war.
>
> Completion of flight training got NAPs gold NA wings for the left breast and
> a crow with gold wings as the rating badge. He still has his CAP crow,
> framed along with all his other patches and hanging on his "I love me" wall
> at home. ("CAP" was the designation during that era for Chief Aviation
> Pilot, not today's form which would likely be "APC".)
>
> --
> Mike Kanze
Expanding on that: When the AP rating was resurrected in '42 (it had
been a designation only up to that point, except for a few years in
the 20s) there were only two paygrades -- E-6 and E-7. The E-6s were
referred to as APs, the E-7s as CAPs. All were referred to, generically,
as APs in casual conversation. Their service records made the distinction,
of course. In my dad's case, Aviation Machinist's Mate from 1940-43,
entered flight training as E-5 (the minimum rate to qualify for the
training), promoted (and cross-rated) to AP (E-6) on completion, and promoted
again 6 months later to Ensign. Since Ensign was Mustang temp commission,
his service record lists dual rank/rate as Ens/AP (O-1/E-6). Two years
later, he was promoted to Ltjg/CAP (O-2/E-7).
During demobilization RIFs after the war, excess Naval Aviators, most of
them USNR, were transferred to the Fleet Reserve in large numbers. The APs,
being regular Navy (and Marines/Coasties), survived the RIFs but not the
abolishment of the enlisted pilot program. It took a couple years for
that to happen, so APs were still coming out of flight training as late
as '47. Since the curtailment of the program included a "grandfather"
stipulation, some of those "late-bloomers" were the ones whose careers
lasted thru to the 70s and, in the case of the last one, '80-'81.
Those who were in place in '48 when the Aviation Pilot rating AND further
enlisted pilot training officially ceased, were allowed to stay. But since
the AP rating no longer existed, they reverted to whatever rating they
occupied before flight training (E-5s, remember, so they all had prior
ratings to return to) at the pay grade they currently occupied. This
included retaining flight status and AP (NAP) as a designator. In the late
40s, early 50s, there were several programs available to encourage them to
take commissions, but left to individual choice. Some, uncomfortable
with collateral duties accompanying commissions, opted to remain enlisted.
Some Mustangs, like my dad, opted for non-flying shipboard billets (though
aviators were in excess, line officers were in short supply) in exchange
for future college training, permanent commissions and Naval Aviator status.
By the time he completed the 5-term program at Northwestern University,
the Navy was cranking up for Korea, so he had a second career in maritime
patrol -- PBYs, P2Vs and WVs, retiring in '67 as Cdr.
Important to keep in mind that the NAP community was never large in number.
Only 5,000 or so from the start (1916) to the finish (1981), and that
includes Marines and Coast Guard, compared to hundreds of thousands of
Naval Aviators. So they were pretty rare birds.
sail...@webtv.net
Ron
> Retired in 81 , What is a QC ? I was stationed at NAS Anacostia in 61 .
> We had several enlisted pilots then . They would fly the R4D VIP
> Aircraft . Pentagon was just across the river
Previous poster made a boo-boo. He meant QM (Quartermaster).
Although APs were pretty widely dispersed, flying all types
of aircraft, it was common to find them in R4Ds. Support on
the ice for Operation(s) Deep Freeze comes to mind. SAR helos,
maritime patrol and ferry squadrons also.
Justin Broderick
"Ron" <rne...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:9d330af4.0306...@posting.google.com...
> pec...@aol.com (Pechs1) wrote in message
news:<20030624095658...@mb-m25.aol.com>...
> > Were NAP wings gold or silver? Same shape as Officer Aviator wings???
> Good question. I have my dad's wings from late 40s, early 50s.
> They are gold and identical. But he was a Mustang/AP (Ensign,
> then Ltjg) during that time. I would imagine there was no
> differentiation needed back then because the enlisted (non-Mustang)
> AP rating badge (between crow and chevrons) was a gold embroidered
> set of wings. I've searched the Naval Aviation history site and there
> is no mention of gold/silver, or design, differences.
USN Uniform Regulations 1941:
<<9-61. Aviation Insignia
(a) The insignia is the same as that for officers.
(b) To be worn by enlisted men who have qualified as naval aviation pilots
in accordance with Navy requirements as set forth from time to time in the
Bureau of Navigation Manual.
(c) Enlisted men holding certificate of qualification as balloon pilots
shall wear the same insignia specified in paragraph (a), but with the right
wing removed.
(d) The pin-on device shall be worn by enlisted men other than chief petty
officers on the jumper of blue dress and white dress uniforms, but no
others.>>
The 1947 Uniform Regs say basically the same thing.
The Aviation Pilot rating badge was authorized 1924 to 1933 for CAP and
AP1c, and was brought back when the rating was re-established in March 1942
for all rates. AP third class was soon eliminated (July 1942). At first the
specialty mark was to be yellow/gold on blue and white rating badges, to
resemble the NA/NAP wings. In July 1944 the specialty mark was changed to
the standard white on blue/blue on white. These rating badges were
eliminated in 1948. The Naval Reserve continued to have the Emergency
Service Rating of Aviation Pilot, however, until the early 1960s. Their
specialty mark was a "V" in a diamond. (John Stacey, "US Navy Rating Badges,
Specialty Marks, and Distingushing Marks 1885-1982")
--Justin
Ron
Good post. Thanks for that info. Just have one quibble with it,
and that's "the specialty mark was to be yellow/gold..." It actually
WAS yellow/gold on both blue and white rating badges. I have one each of
my dad's crows and the yellow/gold rating pictograph is prominent on
both. So it had to be in effect for some period of time prior to July
'44. Can't speak with any authority about it after that date, since
he was a Mustang by that time and no longer wearing enlisted uniforms.
Justin Broderick
>
> Good post. Thanks for that info. Just have one quibble with it,
> and that's "the specialty mark was to be yellow/gold..." It actually
> WAS yellow/gold on both blue and white rating badges.
Quite right, that was just my poor wording. I was using "to be" as in
regulations-type phrasing, I should have just said "was
yellow/gold..."
There are also two versions of AP specialty marks noted by collectors.
One had "straight" wings pretty much like the breast wings, the other
had "curvy" wings like the rest of the aviation petty officer
specialty marks.
--Justin
Justin Broderick
>
As noted in another post they were the same for officers and enlisted.
But a silver version of the NA wings was used briefly (1927-1929) for
Naval Aviation Observers before they got the winged "O" and anchor
badge.
--Justin
John Randolph
"George Shirley" <gsh...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3EF79076...@bellsouth.net...
> The NavCad program in the mid-fifties sent a bunch of failed aviators to
> the fleet as Airmen Apprentices. Had one working for me in the
> maintenance office at VR-1 in 1958. Good guy just couldn't handle flying
> worth a hoot. Best educated AA I ever met, went to Berea College in
> Kentucky. Ben pulled two years as an AA and got out no ambition to
> strike for anything once he failed NavCad.
>
> George
>
> Jake Donovan wrote:
> > Bill,
> >
> > They held the LDO until they finished their degree and augmented.
(pilots
> > were 1312) There is currently still a F14 driver who went thru this
> program.
> > It was also up to each individual to augment so many stayed LDO. A
good
> > friend of mine "Doc" was an Aviator LDO LCDR and was project manager
> for the
> > JPATS in Corpus for a few years.
> >
> > By 83-84 it has been officially named NAVCAD again. A few changes in
the
> > wording here and there but it was basically the same program.
> >
> > JD
> >
> > "Bill Kambic" <wka...@vic.com> wrote in message
> > news:3ef7539f$1...@news.vic.com...
John Randolph
John (NAVCAD class 32-57)
"Red Rider" <tria...@apexmail.com> wrote in message
news:JtUJa.156677$jp.44...@twister.southeast.rr.com...
>
George Shirley
years. Helluva nice fellow and extremely well educated.
George
Red Rider
after time. And the really amazing thing is, that the facts are so easy to
check out. There is no conspiracy, and its been proven over and over that
once the second person knows, its no longer a secrete
Red
news:YaPMa.117686$hd6.35024@fed1read05...
Midlant
> Hey John, Have you ever noticed how the same old things keep coming up
time
> after time. And the really amazing thing is, that the facts are so
easy to
> check out. There is no conspiracy, and its been proven over and over
that
> once the second person knows, its no longer a secrete
>
> Red
I see this is still going. One of the Capt's on here said he wanted to
call the command to check out my story. I also emailed him the
retirement package. I have not read his posts on here since. Shame. RADM
retired this past week.
John
Don
Enlisted Naval Aviator Program when I was in the VP community.
You say the program "flopped?" Why did it flop? The limited number of personnel
selected didn't make the program cost-effective? Or was it more of a political
decision? I know some enlisted guys that are pretty good sticks in
single-engine GA planes. I'm assuming they were instructing in T-34s?
Just curious.
Please reply to DDo...@aol.com
Don McIntyre
Lancaster, PA
Yofuri
anyone know a naval aviator who had a plowback instructor tour and later
screened for command? Practically 100% resigned as Lieutenants or LCDR
selectees.
The apparent solution was to use civil-service basic instructors. Oops, too
expensive.
The LDO Aviator program was created to make hot-to-fly enlisted personnel
LDO's, use them for slave labor instructors, then give them the sea duty
billets that young aviators normally failed at. Oops, most Charlie
Whitehats smart enough for the program were smart enough for other programs
with a future.
Rick
--
My real e-mail address is: yof...@oakharbor.net
"Don" <dona...@aol.comnothing> wrote in message
news:20030704231851...@mb-m01.aol.com...
Pechs1
anyone know a naval aviator who had a plowback instructor tour and later
screened for command? Practically 100% resigned as Lieutenants or LCDR
I'm sure there are some...don't remember any now but altho not 'career
enhancing', I am sure some did well when they finally got to the fleet, then
onto their DH tour. Biggest problem was their timing. Probably had to do back
to back sea tours to get the ontime DH tour and then the major DH ticket.
Eric Scheie
"Jake Donovan" <jakedonov...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:smQJa.21975$H17.17298@lakeread03...
> John,
>
> of many officers and enlisted in my job. And YES, there have been more
> cases than we'd like to admit of active duty members wearing devices they
> were not qualified to wear. Officers and Enlisted alike.
>
I don't recall anyone wearing any awards or insignia they weren't
"qualified" to wear. I do remember some awards, and some claims some people
made that I thought were BS. The best story I've heard along this about the
young enlisted man who wore a WWII ribbon on his uniform. Obviously the lad
hadn't even been born during WWII, but when asked, he said it had been his
father's and he had given it to him. We all had to chuckle - the guy made a
mistake, but I don't think there was any attempt to deceive.
> Last Enlisted Naval Aviator actually retired in 1980 and not 81 even
though
> it has been recorded as such.
>
> I for one would not climb into a FA18F with a WSO I have never met for a
> test flight or PMH without 1st making sure he was indeed qauled. The
> leather (or cloth patch) with NFO wings on it doesn't mean squat to me
> unless I know the man personally, or I have seen his NATOPS jacket.
>
I can understand wanting to know who you're getting into an aircraft with,
but this seems a bit much. A decent Ops Dept should have separated the
qualled from the unqualled. A few drinks together at the O-club would also
reveal as much, and perhaps more. Sir, I think this thread has got your ire
up a bit.
> As for him being a pilot, sure, he could be, a private pilot. Heck, I
know
> civilian pilots who have been allowed pilot Naval aircraft. As for Secial
> Ops in a C-12? There are no special OPs missions for C-12s. A C-12 is a
> Beech (Raytheon) Super King Air Primary Function: Passenger and (UC12)
cargo
> airlift (Has been used for Med Evac and Maritime Aviation Training)
>
The closest thing I can recall to SPECOPS might be the Guard Rail mission
where the C-12 did SIGINT, but I can't see a SEAL being involved with that.
> C141 and C17? Now you are either dreaming or your friend is pulling your
> leg over your head and up somewhere else.
Yeah, I agree. An enlisted SEAL gets "trained as a pilot" and just goes to
the USAF and into a heavy transport? Nope, not going to happen, sorry.
I think this thread has taken on a life of its own. Part of it being the
original poster who I think misunderstood a bit of exaggeration on the part
of a shipmate, and everyone has been involved in a battle caused by
semanitcs. Case in point - a young enlisted fellow in the last USNR squadron
I was in loved to mention to me, every time we met (EVERY TIME), the "over
250 hours" he had in the H-2. It still makes me chuckle, and I just didn't
have the heart to tell him that while I was glad he enjoyed sitting in the
troop seat, it really didn't count for anything. Sounds like the SEAL in
question may have had flight training, paid for by the USN, and while he may
have flown IN Navy aircraft, perhaps even been given some stick (or yoke)
time here and there, he was never a designated Naval Aviator.
Depending on what stories you want to believe, there were at one time, some
SEALS who had taken flight training, ostensibly to provide them with enough
knowledge to fly certain civilian aircraft.
To be fair, however, I did know a fellow who had been a crew chief on UH-1s
with the Army in Vietnam. His story was that he was given just enough
training to enable him to fly the aircraft in the event of the pilots being
killed or wounded. I have no reason to question the veracity of his story,
and he never claimed to be an Army aviator, though I've never heard or read
of an instance where this happened.
V/R
Eric Scheie
Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal
right now who were also SER-cones.
--Woody
On 7/5/03 9:52 AM, in article 20030705105209...@mb-m14.aol.com,
John R Weiss
> yofuri-<< A plowback tour was the career kiss of death for a naval aviator.
> Does
> anyone know a naval aviator who had a plowback instructor tour and later
> screened for command? Practically 100% resigned as Lieutenants or LCDR
> selectees.
Don Barbaree, a VT-25 plowback around 1979, "done good"! IIRC, I saw his name
on a Command Screen or Flag list a few months ago...
Midlant
"Eric Scheie" <hov...@adelphia.net> >
> Depending on what stories you want to believe, there were at one time,
some
> SEALS who had taken flight training, ostensibly to provide them with
enough
> knowledge to fly certain civilian aircraft.
>
> To be fair, however, I did know a fellow who had been a crew chief on
UH-1s
> with the Army in Vietnam. His story was that he was given just enough
> training to enable him to fly the aircraft in the event of the pilots
being
> killed or wounded. I have no reason to question the veracity of his
story,
> and he never claimed to be an Army aviator, though I've never heard or
read
> of an instance where this happened.
>
> V/R
>
> Eric Scheie
OK folks. I'm done. I don't know why it's so hard to accept. A call to
DEVRON would clear your mind on this as well. This was not braggart idle
boast that led to a sea story. It is ....what it is. The Admiral would
not have talked about it at his retirement if this was a scheme cooked
up to boast. Sorry folks.
I emailed the retirement program to Jack Donovan so he could satisfy
himself.
Not trying to make waves just presented a little known fact/program and
got flamed for it.
Longtailedlizard
Great, no more sea stories.
>I don't know why it's so hard to accept.
Because we are not as gulliable as you are.
>A call to
>DEVRON would clear your mind on this as well.
Nope, your the one with the ludicrus claims, you need to call and get your
story straight.
>This was not braggart idle
>boast that led to a sea story. It is ....what it is.
It sure is, "a sea story"
>Not trying to make waves just presented a little known fact/program and
>got flamed for it.
May have been a "program" but not fact
Jake Donovan
We agree on all of this.
> I for one would not climb into a FA18F with a WSO I have never met for a
> test flight or PMH without 1st making sure he was indeed qauled.
>>I can understand wanting to know who you're getting into an aircraft with,
but this seems a bit much. A decent Ops Dept should have separated the
qualled from the unqualled. <<
Exactly. Flying Test or PMH is a bit more demanding than, gee, who wants to
X country backseat to V Beach this weekend. I would rely on the Ops folks.
>>I don't recall anyone wearing any awards or insignia they weren't
"qualified" to wear. I do remember some awards, and some claims some people
made that I thought were BS. <<
A little confusion here as you disagree then agree. I had a pilot report to
me in Summer Whites wearing an Air Medal with 4 Stars and a Strike device.
I had his service jacket on my desk. He had 2 Air Medals. His excuse was
his wife did his ribbons.
As for Midlant's claims, I have been in contact the command in question and
will address my findings with him via email so he can decide whether to
share it with the NG seeing he brought it up. The retirement program was
faxed to COMOPTEVFOR and the appropriate people are getting back to me. It
has taken a bit of time as this was not on my priority list, the lack of
desire to embarrass a retired Chief, and the fact I was on leave.
As for the Army, there were many enlisted helo pilots in Viet Nam.
JD
"Eric Scheie" <hov...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:TkNNa.28222$Jw6.10...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
Jake Donovan
JD
"John R Weiss" <jrweiss98155@.comNOSPAMcast.net> wrote in message
news:nDZNa.20334$I8.10769@rwcrnsc53...
Eric Scheie
>
> >>I don't recall anyone wearing any awards or insignia they weren't
> "qualified" to wear. I do remember some awards, and some claims some
people
> made that I thought were BS. <<
>
Then,
"Jake Donovan" <jakedonov...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:7v5Oa.86421$H17.72187@lakeread03...
> A little confusion here as you disagree then agree. I had a pilot report
to
> me in Summer Whites wearing an Air Medal with 4 Stars and a Strike device.
> I had his service jacket on my desk. He had 2 Air Medals. His excuse was
> his wife did his ribbons.
>
To which I replied,
Sir, to clairfy my statement. While I don't recall running into anyone
wearing wings, or a SWO pin, or a Budweiser, etc. who wasn't qualified,
there were a number of people who wore awards I thought were BS. (That's not
to say there's never been anyone wearing unauthorized warfare insignia.) I
never checked anyone's service record, and their awards may all be well
documented, but what some of them received awards for was just BS. I've seen
others make claims about awards they said they were getting or submitting
themselves for that were BS as well.
A couple of examples:
1. Frigate CO returns from Desert Storm where the ship had spent time in the
NAG. He is soon after sporting a Bronze Star.
2. More than one helo pilot who had been part of ops in the Red Sea during
Desert Shield/Storm returned trying to get air medals. As one told me, "Yup,
I'm getting 4 air medals." Neither received their air medals.
I hope that clarifies my previous statement. We have the same disdain for
someone wearing uniform devices they are not qualified for. I'm sure the
pilot you mentioned was given some...counseling.
I think someone misrepresented themselves a bit to Midlant, and
unfortunately, he's still having his leg pulled today.
V/R
Eric Scheie
John R Weiss
I was an instructor at VT-25 in 79 & 80, at COTF 89-92, then COTD at VX-5 92-94,
up to the transition to VX-9.
BTW, do you know which recent Command/Deep Draft Screen list I might have seen
Don's name on ?
----------------------
John R Weiss
www.tsca.net
"Jake Donovan" <jakedonov...@cox.net> wrote...
> Don is a Capt, Deputy Director of COMOPTEVFOR under RADM Dave Crocker.
>
> "John R Weiss" <jrweiss98155@.comNOSPAMcast.net> wrote...
Jake Donovan
I don't remember which list he was on. I'll ask around.
VX 9? Did you know Craig Weideman? He just retired. Was CO of NASC. (Use
to be the CO of VX9)
JD
"John R Weiss" <jrweiss98155@.comNOSPAMcast.net> wrote in message
news:__jOa.128360$R73.15248@sccrnsc04...
John R Weiss
the first CO of VX-9.
Don't know Craig.
"Jake Donovan" <jakedonov...@cox.net> wrote...
Mike Kanze
anyone know a naval aviator who had a plowback instructor tour and later
screened for command? Practically 100% resigned as Lieutenants or LCDR
selectees.
I can't speak for more recent times, but during the late 1960s - early 1970s
a sizeable percentage of many NA and NFO classes was SERGRADed immediately.
The class ahead and behind one's own might all get fleet seats, with your
own class only getting two or three - or none at all. There are instances
of entire classes being stashed, especially in the NFO communities.
As best I can determine, this did not hurt (or help) anyone's career path -
it was just the way things were back then. Proof, if any more was needed,
that "needs of the service" are always paramount.
Owl sends.
--
Mike Kanze
436 Greenbrier Road
Half Moon Bay, California 94019-2259
USA
"Hey, it's a long way to victory over terrorists and we're barely out of the
driveway. So kids, stop asking, 'Are we there yet?'"
- Larry Mazur, Jr.
"Yofuri" <yof...@oakharbor.net> wrote in message
news:vgcisla...@corp.supernews.com...
> A plowback tour was the career kiss of death for a naval aviator.
[rest snipped]
Midlant
replacement has not been named.
"Jake Donovan" <jakedonov...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:J2lOa.93027$H17.82960@lakeread03...
Jake Donovan
been named. I knew Crocker was retiring, I didn't know he already had.
When did he officially retire? I don't get to COMOPTEVFOR very often.
As Bararee isn't an ADM Select (At least he wasn't when I checked the
selection boards) and the command is a RADM Billet, they will be looking for
a replacement.
JD
"Midlant" <wash...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:RLoOa.36429$ZE.8034@lakeread05...
s.p.i.
> >A plowback tour was the career kiss of death for a naval aviator. Does
> anyone know a naval aviator who had a plowback instructor tour and later
> screened for command? Practically 100% resigned as Lieutenants or LCDR
> selectees.
I know of one plowback/retread who eventually had command of an
operational squadron, the rag, got his deep draft, and finally a wing.
Pechs1
operational squadron, the rag, got his deep draft, and finally a wing.
name please??
Pechs1
1970s
a sizeable percentage of many NA and NFO classes was SERGRADed immediately.
Got my wings in June of '74...for many weeks before, all the nuggets were
'plowed back'...During my 'week', there were 25 fleet seats available, only 18
or so nuggets available. They waited until the next week to fill these, with
new nuggets. REALLY peeved the SerGrads..
3 Phantom, some S-3, lots of A-7 and A-4(Bruce Carrier), 3 or 4 A-6, even some
Spad I think.
Right place at the right time.
M Power
when I tell you that there are a few SEALs that are presently
qualified as Naval Aviators. They do not fly any of the aircraft that
you mentioned below. They only fly non-military aircraft. Where they
are stationed does not matter. But they are indeed qualified. Take
care.
"Jake Donovan" <jakedonov...@cox.net> wrote in message news:<smQJa.21975$H17.17298@lakeread03>...
> John,
>
> I am active duty. I am also work closely with NAVAIR, Air Warfare and
> CNATRA and can tell you 100% that there are NO enlisted members of the Navy
> qualified to wear wings of gold or silver. He may be a SEAL, but he isn't a
> Naval Aviator. He may wear a SEAL Device, but did you ever see him wear
> Silver Naval Aviator Wings? And YES, I have questioned the badges and quals
> of many officers and enlisted in my job. And YES, there have been more
> cases than we'd like to admit of active duty members wearing devices they
> were not qualified to wear. Officers and Enlisted alike.
>
> Last Enlisted Naval Aviator actually retired in 1980 and not 81 even though
> it has been recorded as such.
>
> "Annual Report, Bureau of Naval Personnel Statistics (Report 15658),
> discontinued in mid FY 1993. Figures for enlisted personnel in aviation
> rates for FY 199395 provided^directly from BuPers, PERS 221D.Note-Does not
> include men in training. Aviation rates under Navy for years 193339 include
> general service ratings assigned to aviation duty. Enlisted pilots
> for192026 are included under aviation rates. All Navy figures for World War
> II period, 194045, include Coast Guard. Figures not available for Marine
> Corps, 192029.594UNITED STATES NAVAL AVIATION 19101995Aviation Personnel
> on Active Duty-Continued"
>
> I for one would not climb into a FA18F with a WSO I have never met for a
> test flight or PMH without 1st making sure he was indeed qauled. The
> leather (or cloth patch) with NFO wings on it doesn't mean squat to me
> unless I know the man personally, or I have seen his NATOPS jacket.
>
> As for him being a pilot, sure, he could be, a private pilot. Heck, I know
> civilian pilots who have been allowed pilot Naval aircraft. As for Secial
> Ops in a C-12? There are no special OPs missions for C-12s. A C-12 is a
> Beech (Raytheon) Super King Air Primary Function: Passenger and (UC12) cargo
> airlift (Has been used for Med Evac and Maritime Aviation Training)
>
> C141 and C17? Now you are either dreaming or your friend is pulling your
> leg over your head and up somewhere else. The AF has its own Special Ops
> teams and Pilots to fly them. I know of a couple of Navy test Pilots that
> have a few hours in a C17, but to suggest an enlisted SEAL flys them
> regularly for special OPs missions?
>
> I talked to J B Hollyer yesterday and he laughed when I mentioned Special
> OPs in C or UC-12s. Why? He is the former CO of VX20, NAWC - NAVAIR. They
> do ALL testing and eval for the C-12. He did tell me the type may have been
> used by other folks to run special OPs like drugs, but not in the Navy and
> not by the SEALS. As for the C17 and C141, it took him a few minutes to pick
> the phone back up and compose himself.
>
> I may just call RADM Cocker tomorrow and put an end to this thread.
>
>
> JD
> Capt USN (no ret at the end of that title)
Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal
1a36ce62.03071...@posting.google.com, "M Power"
<EOD...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> You are incorrect Captain. I'm active duty Navy as well, and trust me
> when I tell you that there are a few SEALs that are presently
> qualified as Naval Aviators. They do not fly any of the aircraft that
> you mentioned below. They only fly non-military aircraft. Where they
> are stationed does not matter. But they are indeed qualified. Take
> care.
>
>
Mpower...
Do they actually wear the gold wings? This has been a point of contention
in the thread.
--Woody
M Power
Woody - I wish I could answer that, but none of the guys I know wear
their wings. I really don't know what they would wear.
Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal
> "Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal" <doug...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:<BB3A5D4E.5B4B%doug...@earthlink.net>...
>> On 7/15/03 9:28 PM, in article
>> 1a36ce62.03071...@posting.google.com, "M Power"
>> <EOD...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> You are incorrect Captain. I'm active duty Navy as well, and trust me
>>> when I tell you that there are a few SEALs that are presently
>>> qualified as Naval Aviators. They do not fly any of the aircraft that
>>> you mentioned below. They only fly non-military aircraft. Where they
>>> are stationed does not matter. But they are indeed qualified. Take
>>> care.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Mpower...
>>
>> Do they actually wear the gold wings? This has been a point of contention
>> in the thread.
>>
>> --Woody
>
> Woody - I wish I could answer that, but none of the guys I know wear
> their wings. I really don't know what they would wear.
That's cool.
In my mind, that's what the dispute in the thread is over. In other words,
I heard wind of a program that trained SEALS to fly aircraft through the
civilian training pipeline using Navy money--slimy but effective. Just like
you posted... They fly civilian aircraft. So these guys were full-fledged
pilots employed by the Navy, but they were not Naval Aviators, and thus not
entitled to wear the gold wings. They're Navy pilots but not Naval
Aviators.
Just like if I went through some survivalist course and/or learned how to
shoot and perform some SEAL-like skills, I would not be entitled to wear the
Budweiser pin.
The Navy has a similar program for ROTC students slated to go to flight
school. They can go to an approved civilian part 141 school where the Navy
will provide vouchers for them to get 20 hours of instruction.
--Woody
Pechs1
school. They can go to an approved civilian part 141 school where the Navy
I did this in 1970-Called FIP, Flight Indoctriation Program...but got 40 hours
and 50 hours of ground school, just had to pay for the check ride to get my
private ticket...a Great deal.
Paid for by the USN...flew civilain aircraft...wasn't a Naval Aviator or even
Navy pilot tho...
Jake Donovan
I was going to let the originator decide where to take this but you need to
be corrected. After contacting all organizations that have anything to do
with Naval Aviation training and the SEALS, there are NO, I repeat NO
enlisted NAVAL AVIATORS in the Navy.
The people you are referring to were trained for special missions in private
aircraft and do not hold a 13XX designator. They may be pilots who are in
the Navy, but they are NOT Naval Aviators nor can they fly as Pilot in
Command of any Naval Aircraft without a designated Naval Aviator in a dual
controlled aircraft. They can not LOG anytime in a Naval Aircraft, even if
they get stick time.
And to clear another point up, the original person who was "one of 11
enlisted pilots" who just retired, was trained through this program and was
not a NAVAL AVIATOR. He was a private pilot. Yes, his service jacket was
looked at.
Being a pilot and being a Naval Aviator are not the same. In the same
breath, a 1310 designated Naval Aviator who does not hold a Private Pilot
Certificate can not fly solo in a privately owned Cessna 172 legally.
This should tie-up all loose ends.
JD
"M Power" <EOD...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1a36ce62.03071...@posting.google.com...
Ogden Johnson III
[Snip tie-up of loose ends.]
>This should tie-up all loose ends.
Erm. Have you forgotten where you are posting, Jake? This is the
Usenet. *Nothing* can tie up all loose ends on the Usenet. There
will always be one "But my best friend's uncle's third-cousin-twice-
removed's wife saw the sun rise in the West on May 2, 1904. So
there!"
OJ III
[Anyone for a go-around at one of s.m.n's favorites, the 100-knot
carrier?]
C.D. Damron
> Erm. Have you forgotten where you are posting, Jake? This is the
> Usenet. *Nothing* can tie up all loose ends on the Usenet. There
> will always be one "But my best friend's uncle's third-cousin-twice-
> removed's wife saw the sun rise in the West on May 2, 1904. So
> there!"
"Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Well, it ain't over
now!"
C.D. Damron
> MPower,
>
> I was going to let the originator decide where to take this but you need
to
> be corrected. After contacting all organizations that have anything to
do
> with Naval Aviation training and the SEALS, there are NO, I repeat NO
> enlisted NAVAL AVIATORS in the Navy.
>
> The people you are referring to were trained for special missions in
private
> aircraft and do not hold a 13XX designator. They may be pilots who are in
> the Navy, but they are NOT Naval Aviators nor can they fly as Pilot in
> Command of any Naval Aircraft without a designated Naval Aviator in a dual
> controlled aircraft. They can not LOG anytime in a Naval Aircraft, even
if
> they get stick time.
>
> And to clear another point up, the original person who was "one of 11
> enlisted pilots" who just retired, was trained through this program and
was
> not a NAVAL AVIATOR. He was a private pilot. Yes, his service jacket was
> looked at.
As I suspected. To further the point, my father, a retired NFO, has
hundreds of hours of private pilot time logged in Naval aircraft, but he
would never claim to be a Navy pilot.
M Power
"Pilot" with "Naval Aviator". I ignorantly assumed the two terms were
interchangeable, but I now know I was incorrect. Thanks for the
clarification. Take care.
"Jake Donovan" <jakedonov...@cox.net> wrote in message news:<6UcRa.16144$AD3.3690@lakeread04>...
Robert Moore
> As I suspected. To further the point, my father, a retired NFO,
> has hundreds of hours of private pilot time logged in Naval
> aircraft, but he would never claim to be a Navy pilot.
How did he meet the FAA requirement of "rated in type" in order
to log the time as "pilot flight time"? Rated-in-type is a
requirement for all aircraft over 12'500# and jet aircraft.
Bob Moore
ATP B-707 B-727
USN S-2F P-2V P-3B
CFI ASEL-IA
Jake Donovan
JD
"Ogden Johnson III" <o...@cpcug.org> wrote in message
news:t7oahv0ns60m3va3j...@4ax.com...
John R Weiss
> Sid-<< I know of one plowback/retread who eventually had command of an
> operational squadron, the rag, got his deep draft, and finally a wing.
>
Different one, but Don Barbaree (SERGRAD VT-25 ca 1979) was CO of Kitty Hawk
just prior to Iraqi Freedom. Currently acting COMOPTEVFOR.
John R Weiss
> Sid-<< I know of one plowback/retread who eventually had command of an
> operational squadron, the rag, got his deep draft, and finally a wing.
>
C.D. Damron
"Robert Moore" <rmoo...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Xns93BA8EF1BA386rm...@65.32.1.8...
> How did he meet the FAA requirement of "rated in type" in order
> to log the time as "pilot flight time"? Rated-in-type is a
> requirement for all aircraft over 12'500# and jet aircraft.
I'll ask him when I get a chance. I know he never attempted to apply those
hours, so they never received FAA scrutiny. Maybe, he was uninformed and it
was a useless effort. It did help him pass the time while hitching patrol
rides to keep his flight pay.
Please educate me in a number of areas.
There are a number of questions which the FAA has not answered consistently
over the last thirty years. With regards to Naval Aviators, the FAA has
allowed Navy pilots, with proper documentation, to apply hours acquired when
the pilot didn't have a license of any sort. In these cases, even the PIC
wasn't rated in-type at the time he collected and logged his military hours.
That said, are military aircraft type-rated? That would answer a number of
questions.
The question of co-pilot time (SIC) is even more confusing. The FAA uses
aircraft certification to determine if co-pilot time can be logged. If the
certified aircraft requires two pilots, SIC time can be logged. If the
certified aircraft does not require two pilots, PIC time can be traded back
and forth, but no SIC time can be logged. If type-rating is required, these
hours can't be logged.
An interesting case is the S-3. For a number of years, NFO's logged SIC
time, privately. A number of these NFO got the FAA and airlines to accept
the time. In 1988, NAVAIR started requiring that this time be kept
formally.
Which leads to the next question, does SIC time have to be logged while
rated-in-type?
C.D. Damron
> to log the time as "pilot flight time"? Rated-in-type is a
> requirement for all aircraft over 12'500# and jet aircraft.
My initial reply read like word soup, so I'll try again.
How did the FAA accept military time when the military pilot lacked a
license, let alone a type-rating?
If you fly an aircraft that requires a type-rating, you need to be
type-rated. Are military aircraft type-rated? If they aren't, how does
that affect logging? What can be done retroactively?
It seems that the FAA is clearer explaining when you CAN log time that
describing when you CAN'T. I guess this is what leads to inconsistent
interpretations.
I know the Navy has made a number of things easier for pilots that are
planning a post-Naval career with the airlines. What was the situation in
the sixties and seventies?
I recall a number of funny stories about how NFO's got their ratings.