Flight Following/VFR Approach into Class D
Scott Aron Bloom
When flying using Flight Following flying into class D airspace, usually I
get handed
off to the tower freq ~8 miles off. Same goes when flying a practice
approach in VFR conditions without an IFR
clearance.
My question is this, what happens if Center, does not hand you off in time,
ie getting handed off inside the
5 mile radius. It was my impression, that I am fine. I am in two way
communication with ATC.
However, speaking to a friend of mine, who happens to be a tower controller
for a class D airport, he
was saying that I am not in the clear here. Since I was not in 2 way with
the Tower.
My basic response was, you got to be kidding me. Doesn't Center talk to you
guys? What about an IFR
approach to minimums in actual, I know I have been dropped off inside the 5
miles then! Knowing that
and IFR clearance is just, cleared to the location..
His stance was as pilot, I am responsible for contacting the tower outside
of the 5 miles just as if
I was not using flight following.
FAR 91.129 covers this, 91.129.c(1) says " (1) Arrival or through flight.
Each person must establish two-way radio
communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of
foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic
services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those
communications while within that airspace."
My basic read from that is I am in 2 way with "an" ATC but not "the" atc,
however, Center is "proving air traffic
services".
The other gotcha is, The class D (TTD)in question lies under the outer shelf
of a class C airport (PDX), and I am not
speaking with Center, but rather I am working with PDX approach.
Any thoughts?
Scott
CFII-ASEL/AMEL
N1909V
Bill
"coordinate with the several class D airports (LCK, OSU, TZR) and I don't even
ask any more is it OK to enter class D. However going north of ORD with FF, they
chewed out a guy ahead of me for not talking to Palwaukee tower. Guy just said
"how can I be talking on two frequencies at same time?" He was rudely dumped by
ORD approach with a warning never to do it again!
Bob Gardner
"Do you want me to contact the tower now?" "Am I cleared for the approach?"
Bob Gardner
Scott Aron Bloom <scott...@mentor.com> wrote in message
news:3b66edba$1...@solnews.wv.mentorg.com...
Flighthawk
Approach will notify the tower but if you are VFR that is not always the
case. I don't worry about it if I am IFR (the procedures are different) but
if I am VFR and I haven't been told to contact the tower by the time I get
to about 7 miles, I will query the controller. If he tells me to stay on his
frequency it's on tape. If he tells me to contact the tower then that's what
I do. Sometimes controllers get real busy and forget to tell you to change
frequencies. I have had that happen more than once. A quick call from the
pilot will solve the problem. There have been a couple of times years back
when approach told me to stay on their frequency and I was actually cleared
to land on approach frequency, contacting ground when off the runway. This
is quite common with airports that have GCA/ PAR approaches. I haven't had
that happen in quite a few years.
PD
Scott Aron Bloom <scott...@mentor.com> wrote in message
news:3b66edba$1...@solnews.wv.mentorg.com...
Dan Luke
> My question is this, what happens if Center, does not hand you off in
time,
> ie getting handed off inside the
> 5 mile radius. It was my impression, that I am fine. I am in two way
> communication with ATC.
IFR handoffs are mandatory for ATC, VFR handoffs are optional. It's your
responsibility to meet the requirements to enter Class B, C or D airspace
when you are VFR.
--
Dan
N9387D at BFM
Patrick
time,
> ie getting handed off inside the
> 5 mile radius. It was my impression, that I am fine. I am in two way
> communication with ATC.
That's a little too easy. You could be talking to FSS, which is also ATC -
the key is to be talking to the APPROPRIATE ATC. VFR traffic handoffs are
not mandatory, so, if you're on flight following, you should inform ATC
about your intention to leave their freq and call twr if they don't hand you
off.
Patrick
Maury Krupp
ie getting handed off inside the 5 mile radius. It was my impression, that
I am fine. I am in two way communication with ATC."
You are correct (although it's a transfer of communications, not a handoff).
"However, speaking to a friend of mine, who happens to be a tower controller
for a class D airport, he was saying that I am not in the clear here. Since
I was not in 2 way with the Tower."
He is confused. Refer him to FAAH 7110.65 2-1-14:
"a. Ensure that the necessary coordination has been accomplished before you
allow an aircraft under your control to enter another controller's area of
jurisdiction."
and 2-1-16:
"b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization
when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that
will enter another facility's airspace.
NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each
area when in contact with a radar facility.
c. Transfer communications to the appropriate facility, if required, prior
to operation within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility."
Of course, none of the above apply if the radar controller terminates radar
service (as in "Aw crap, I forgot to coordinate this guy and he's almost in
the surface area. I'll just terminate him right now."). Then you're on
your own and have to establish two-way comm before actually entering the
surface area.
Maury
Neal Howard
<scott...@mentor.com> wrote:
>Question to one and all,
>
>When flying using Flight Following flying into class D airspace, usually I
>get handed
>off to the tower freq ~8 miles off. Same goes when flying a practice
>approach in VFR conditions without an IFR
>clearance.
>
>My question is this, what happens if Center, does not hand you off in time,
>ie getting handed off inside the
>5 mile radius. It was my impression, that I am fine. I am in two way
>communication with ATC.
Easy..., when VFR and using Flight Following, just inform the
approach/center/whoever that you'd like to terminate flight following
at this time so that you can begin your VFR descent and contact the
tower at the class D airport you're nearing, if you feel like you're
getting too close without the handoff. I've had to do this a couple
times.
It also helps to put the flight following controller at ease when you
also say something like 8 miles out and have the field in sight too.
Adam Broun
OWD (norwood, MA) class D airspace goes up to 2600ft according to the
sectional, but if you call the tower asking for a VFR transition at 2500
they'll push you off to Boston Departure...just one of those things you have
to know, I guess...
"Scott Aron Bloom" <scott...@mentor.com> wrote in message
news:3b66edba$1...@solnews.wv.mentorg.com...
aterpster
> That's a little too easy. You could be talking to FSS, which is also ATC -
> the key is to be talking to the APPROPRIATE ATC. VFR traffic handoffs are
> not mandatory, so, if you're on flight following, you should inform ATC
> about your intention to leave their freq and call twr if they don't hand you
> off.
>
A FSS is *not* ATC. They provide no control functions whatsoever. They are a
communications relay station, the same as ARINC is for oceanic ATC. That is why
an IFR clearance from a FSS begins with "ATC clears..." the international
standard phraseology to indicate you are receiving a relayed clearance from a
non-control facility.
D G
You're flying into an airport underlying class B (you are still in it) when
the controller terminates radar services (usually when he gets too busy
and/or is unable to maintain required wake/target separation :( ) only to
find yourself dodging a 757, fly to the airport, and for some reason need to
remain in class B.. is your clearance still valid to be there? Of course we
would try to contact ATC "as soon as practicable", yet - the frequency is
congested. Hypothetical, yes. But I've been there (this situation) a few
more times than I (anyone) probably should have. Remember, common sense is
not tolerated!
Drew
IASMEL
Viva Las(t) V(w)ages
*as I run for cover *
Jeff Ryan
My thoughts are that if you've received a clearance to enter
Class B airspace and the Class B approach control facility
hasn't cancelled or revoked that clearance, it still exists
even if radar services are no longer being provided to you.
A strange combination though... I fly VFR through DEN
Class B frequently and have never had radar service terminated
until I was clear of Class B or in (or about to enter) an
underlying Class D airspace. I can't find any reference that
states ATC must provide radar services after clearing me into
Class B, so I guess its O.K. to squawk 1200 while in Class B...
although it sure would feel strange...
Blue Skies,
Jeff Ryan
Skylane N2372R
Meadow Lake Airport (ŘŘV)
Colorado Springs, CO
Todd Nelson
controllers you are leaving their frequency. Squawk 1200 and contact the
tower on your own. Sure this is poor form, but if the controller is very
busy and you cannot get a word in edgewise, this will keep you from
executing some inconvenient maneuvers to remain clear of Class D.
Newps
Todd Nelson wrote:
You're right, it is bad form. You do not need to remain clear of the class D
prior to entering if you are talking to another controller.
William W. Plummer
flight following is NOT good enough for entering Class-D airspace.
It must be THE controller servicing that airspace. See 91.129 (c)
. --Bill
"Newps" <scn...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3B74BDFF...@home.com...
Steven P. McNicoll
"William W. Plummer" <wplu...@alum.mit.edu> wrote in message
news:zA8d7.36963$bm5.13...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...
>
> Talking to just any controller such as the approach controller providing
> flight following is NOT good enough for entering Class-D airspace.
> It must be THE controller servicing that airspace. See 91.129 (c)
>
That's not correct. If you're receiving radar traffic advisories and your
route takes you through Class D airspace, the radar controller is required
to coordinate the transition of Class D airspace for you. You are not
required or expected to contact the tower yourself. See FAR 91.129(a),
"Unless otherwise authorized..."
FAA Order 7110.65M Air Traffic Control
Chapter 2. General Control
Section 1. General
2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS
Dan Luke
> That's not correct. If you're receiving radar traffic advisories and your
> route takes you through Class D airspace, the radar controller is required
> to coordinate the transition of Class D airspace for you. You are not
> required or expected to contact the tower yourself. See FAR 91.129(a),
> "Unless otherwise authorized..."
I don't understand how 91.129(a) relieves a VFR pilot of class D comm.
responsibility any time he's getting radar service. It says "Unless
otherwise authorized by the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the class
D airspace...". Isn't the local tower "the ATC facility having
jurisdiction", for example, over an out-in-the-boonies class D airspace like
Troy, AL? Does ZTL also have jurisdiction? Perhaps more to the point,
exactly what does "jurisdiction" mean in this case?
Steven P. McNicoll
"Dan Luke" <c7...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:eXad7.20124$Ke7.6...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com...
Steven P. McNicoll
"Dan Luke" <c7...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:eXad7.20124$Ke7.6...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com...
>
> responsibility any time he's getting radar service. It says "Unless
> otherwise authorized by the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the
class
> D airspace...". Isn't the local tower "the ATC facility having
> jurisdiction", for example, over an out-in-the-boonies class D airspace
like
> Troy, AL? Does ZTL also have jurisdiction? Perhaps more to the point,
> exactly what does "jurisdiction" mean in this case?
>
VFR towers don't actually have any jurisdiction over airspace. That is,
there are no
separation minima between VFR aircraft in Class D, Class E, or Class G
airspace for tower controllers to maintain. VFR towers provide runway
separation only. Generally, responsibility and authority over IFR and SVFR
operations in Class D airspace belongs to the overlying approach control or
Center. Some functions may be delegated to the tower by letter of
agreement.
Stan Gosnell
<eXad7.20124$Ke7.6...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com>:
The ATC facility having jurisdiction has a letter of agreement with
approach control & other facilities. As long as you're talking to any of
these facilities, you're in effect talking to the facility with
jurisdiction, since the letter of agreement sublets the jurisdiction. You
can be sure approach, center, or whomever coordinates with the tower before
you get there. If they don't, it's their deal, not yours.
Juan Jimenez
You're not asking for clearances, you're asking for traffic advisories.
You're not being routed through Class D, you would be flying through it on
your own, which means it would be your responsibility to obtain clearance to
fly through the Class D, no? I wouldn't take such a chance, I would ask
whomever is providing me with the advisories if I was cleared or I would ask
to change freq for a minute to get the clearance to cross Class D and then
go back to the traffic advisory freq.
Juan
"Stan Gosnell" <sgos...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:90FAA990Dsgos...@204.52.135.10...
Steven P. McNicoll
"Juan Jimenez" <fly...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Svid7.74879$oh1.29...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
>
> How can a VFR traffic advisory service constitute clearance to do
anything?
>
It doesn't, and nobody said that it did.
>
> You're not asking for clearances, you're asking for traffic advisories.
> You're not being routed through Class D, you would be flying through it on
> your own, which means it would be your responsibility to obtain clearance
to
> fly through the Class D, no? I wouldn't take such a chance, I would ask
> whomever is providing me with the advisories if I was cleared or I would
ask
> to change freq for a minute to get the clearance to cross Class D and then
> go back to the traffic advisory freq.
>
No clearance is required or available for VFR flight through Class D
airspace. If you're receiving radar traffic advisories, it is the radar
controller's responsibility to coordinate the transition through Class D
airspace. The pilot is not required or expected to contact the tower
directly.
Dan Luke
> No clearance is required or available for VFR flight through Class D
> airspace. If you're receiving radar traffic advisories, it is the radar
> controller's responsibility to coordinate the transition through Class D
> airspace.
The radar controller knows your destination; how does he know your route of
flight? If you suddenly decide to divert around weather and thereby
penetrate a class D, are you legal if the radar guy hasn't "coordinated"?
Steven P. McNicoll
>
> The radar controller knows your destination; how does he know your route
of
> flight?
>
He may or may not know your destination, if you haven't told him he cannot
know. He knows your general route of flight because he's been tracking you
and he assumes you'll proceed in the same general direction.
>
> If you suddenly decide to divert around weather and thereby
> penetrate a class D, are you legal if the radar guy hasn't "coordinated"?
>
You should advise him before making significant changes in direction or
altitude.
Kyler Laird
>You're right, it is bad form. You do not need to remain clear of the class D
>prior to entering if you are talking to another controller.
Ha! Tell that to the Meigs controllers.
--kyler
Newps
Juan Jimenez
"Steven P. McNicoll" <ronca...@writeme.com> wrote in message
news:tnbe2vi...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> It doesn't, and nobody said that it did.
If you are saying that ATC is responsible to contact the tower at the class
D facility, that's implying a clearance.
> No clearance is required or available for VFR flight through Class D
> airspace. If you're receiving radar traffic advisories, it is the radar
> controller's responsibility to coordinate the transition through Class D
> airspace. The pilot is not required or expected to contact the tower
> directly.
But isn't the radar controller operator just letting you know if someone's
near you, rather than following where you are going or expecting you do
anything other than stay in the air?
Juan Jimenez
class D airspace. I don't think that requesting VFR traffic advisories
constitutes clearance to enter -any- class B, C or D airspace, nor do I
think it means it is the responsibility of the controller providing
advisories.
"Newps" <scn...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3B75CC71...@home.com...
Craig Prouse
fly...@hotmail.com wrote on 8/11/01 10:08 PM:
> You are required to have express clearance to enter/cross class D airspace.
This is your misconception. If you first convince yourself that this is not
true, then the rest will become clear.
The difference between receiving a clearance and maintaining two-way
communications is subtle, but very important to this discussion.
Craig
Steven P. McNicoll
>
> If you are saying that ATC is responsible to contact the tower at the
class
> D facility, that's implying a clearance.
>
No it isn't. ATC is responsible for contacting the tower, but there are no
VFR clearances for Class D airspace.
>
> But isn't the radar controller operator just letting you know if someone's
> near you, rather than following where you are going or expecting you do
> anything other than stay in the air?
>
He knows your position over a period of time, he can't avoid following you.
Steven P. McNicoll
>
> Not if you're VFR. You are required to have express clearance to
enter/cross
> class D airspace.
>
Please post that requirement here.
>
> I don't think that requesting VFR traffic advisories constitutes clearance
to
> enter -any- class B, C or D airspace, nor do I think it means it is the
> responsibility of the controller providing advisories.
>
A clearance is required to enter Class B airspace, but all that's required
to enter Class C and D airspace is the establishment of two-way radio
communications. If you're receiving radar traffic advisories you've
established communications.
Newps
Juan Jimenez wrote:
> Not if you're VFR. You are required to have express clearance to enter/cross
> class D airspace.
No you're not.
> I don't think that requesting VFR traffic advisories
> constitutes clearance to enter -any- class B, C or D airspace, nor do I
> think it means it is the responsibility of the controller providing
> advisories.
You're wrong. You only need a clearance to enter class B. For an enroute
aircraft class C and D are the same. You call up the approach control that
sevices the surface areas airport. For a class D that may be a Center. As long
as you are receiving flight following you do not need to contact the Tower. Why
don't you also state that you have to contact the Tower in a class C? From your
point of view what is the difference?
>
Kyler Laird
>> >You're right, it is bad form. You do not need to remain clear of the class D
>> >prior to entering if you are talking to another controller.
>>
>> Ha! Tell that to the Meigs controllers.
>I don't have to.
Of course you don't. Did you really think I
have some power to force you to do things?
>If they have a problem, well, then they have a problem.
Not only that, but *I* have a problem when it
happens to me. That's why I'd appreciate it
if you would explain it to them.
--kyler
Newps
the supervisor, if that doesn't work call the Air Traffic Manager of Meigs. You
could also call FSDO and tell them what happened. They can certainly have a chat
with the manager, who will start the shit rolling downhill. When you're right and
know you're right don't back down.
Antonio Aponte
on this subject.
If you are flying along monitoring the frequency that ATC assigned you
and are about to enter say Delta airspace, are you now expected to
switch frequencies, ask for a transition, and then get back to the
orgional frequency on which you had FF? This seems inefficient at best.
I was under the impression that once a controller gets you on a 'hand
off' they are assuming responsibility for any airspace enroute that you
might encounter. Is this wrong?
Antonio
Newps
Antonio Aponte wrote:
>
> If you are flying along monitoring the frequency that ATC assigned you
> and are about to enter say Delta airspace, are you now expected to
> switch frequencies, ask for a transition, and then get back to the
> orgional frequency on which you had FF?
No.
> This seems inefficient at best.
>
That's why.
>
> I was under the impression that once a controller gets you on a 'hand
> off' they are assuming responsibility for any airspace enroute that you
> might encounter. Is this wrong?
Any airspace? No. Surface areas? Yes. You still have to miss the prohibited
areas for example. Out west here this time of year there are dozens of TFR's
because of forest fires. I was in the backcountry of Idaho last week and although
this has turned out to be a minimal year for fires there are several TFR's for the
area I was in. They change everyday as fires start and get put out.
Steven P. McNicoll
"Antonio Aponte" <tap...@scattercreek.com> wrote in message
news:3B76B0B1...@scattercreek.com...
>
> This has never been crytal clear to me and I have read previous threads
> on this subject.
>
> If you are flying along monitoring the frequency that ATC assigned you
> and are about to enter say Delta airspace, are you now expected to
> switch frequencies, ask for a transition, and then get back to the
> orgional frequency on which you had FF?
>
No, you are not expected to do that. The radar controller must coordinate
the transition of Class D airspace.
Roger Halstead
"Dan Luke" <c7...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:%Oid7.11767$V43.9...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com...
You think they know your destination.
Twice I've been sent to the wrong airport. Both times the controlling agency
for my destination was also primary for another airport...to which they were
sending me.
Even happens IFR. They route you for traffic avoidance, forget about you,
get ou over the airport and tell you to follow the guy ahead when you can't
see your own wingtips...etc...
No, it doen't hapen a lot, but it does on occasion.
--
Roger Halstead (K8RI)
WWW.RogerHalstead.com
N833R, World's Oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)
Steven P. McNicoll
"Roger Halstead" <rdha...@tm.net> wrote in message
news:0mAd7.3831$5d4.1...@monger.newsread.com...
>
> You think they know your destination.
> Twice I've been sent to the wrong airport. Both times the controlling
agency
> for my destination was also primary for another airport...to which they
were
> sending me.
>
How do they "send" you anywhere while you're simply receiving radar traffic
advisories?
Matthew S. Whiting
>
> Not if you're VFR. You are required to have express clearance to enter/cross
> class D airspace. I don't think that requesting VFR traffic advisories
> constitutes clearance to enter -any- class B, C or D airspace, nor do I
> think it means it is the responsibility of the controller providing
> advisories.
Please provide the FAR number that requires a clearance to transit class
D airspace. Pour lots of coffee as you will be searching for a LONG
time. :-)
Matt
Marcelo Pacheco
altitude changes.
I had situations where I was flying along the border between to facilities
(jacksonville Ctr and Daytona Apch), and I was queried of my heading to find out
if I needed to be handed off or not.
Marcelo Pacheco
PP-ASEL IFR
Todd Nelson
*******************************************
FAA Order 7110.65M Air Traffic Control
Chapter 2. General Control
Section 1. General
2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS
b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization
when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that
will enter another facility's airspace.
NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each
area when in contact with a radar facility.
maurice givens
between Meigs and Midway, and Meigs and Gary, and never have a problem,
and Midway departure usually turns me over to Meigs well within the
Meigs class D. If you are coming into Meigs class D from North or
South, and you are not in 2-way comm with approach or center, you need
to call Meigs before entering the class D. But if you are talking to
ATC, you should not have a problem, at least I never seem to have a
problem.
The key here is that 92.129(c)(1) requires 2-way radio comm be
established with the ATC FACILITY PROVIDING AIR TRAFFIC SERVICES
[emphasis is mine]. This could be center, or approach, or the tower.
The only part of 91.129 that requires 2-way radio comm with the tower is
91.129(c)(2), and that is for departing form an airport that is tower
equipped.
Maurice
maurice givens
Maurice
"William W. Plummer" wrote:
>
> Talking to just any controller such as the approach controller providing
> flight following is NOT good enough for entering Class-D airspace.
> It must be THE controller servicing that airspace. See 91.129 (c)
> . --Bill
>
> "Newps" <scn...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:3B74BDFF...@home.com...
> >
> >
> > Todd Nelson wrote:
> >
> > > When VFR flight following you not really even required to tell the
> > > controllers you are leaving their frequency. Squawk 1200 and contact
> the
> > > tower on your own. Sure this is poor form, but if the controller is
> very
> > > busy and you cannot get a word in edgewise, this will keep you from
> > > executing some inconvenient maneuvers to remain clear of Class D.
Jeff Ryan
Springs to Boulder. I could use the VFR corridor through DEN
Class Bravo but I always prefer to contact DEN approach-- so
I call them about 40 miles out, announce my position, altitude
and that I'm VFR to Boulder. I get a squawk code and after
radar contact am advised I am cleared to operate in Class Bravo
at or above 8,500'. A few minutes later he calls and says "if
you'd like to go direct from your position - and if I wish to
decend, he'd be happy to coordinate my transition through Jeffco
(BJC- Class D) airspace. The ceiling of Jeffco's Class D is
8000'-- and the controller knows that after I clear it, I'm going
to have to decend pretty rapidly to land at Boulder; its 9.5 miles
north of BJC with an elevation of around 5,300'-- so he's being a
nice guy and telling me that if I want to decend now, that's OK--
and not only that but he will coordinate my transition through
Jeffco Class D. What service!! I declined his generous offer so
I don't know exactly what language he would have used (e.g.
"transition through Jeffco Class D is approved".. or something
similar) but this exchange tells me that he has the 'authority' to
clear me through an underlying Class D airspace (albeit by
coordinating with its tower)-- and that I don't necessarily have
to be in contact with the Class D tower controller to transition
their airspace as long as it has been coordinated by another ATC
facility. I would guess that there is a letter of agreement or
some such instrument between the facilities that allows this type
of practice.
Blue Skies,
Jeff Ryan
Skylane N2372R
Meadow Lake Airport (ŘŘV)
Colorado Springs, CO
__________________________________________________________
maurice givens <maurice...@tellabs.com> wrote in message news:<3B77DE5F...@tellabs.com>...
Juan Jimenez
specifically tell you that he/she will coordinate with Jeffco to pass
through their Class D, essentially getting a clearance for you and passing
it on to you so you know you're OK. This is very different from _assuming_
that the controller is going to do this and flying through Class D without
knowing for sure if he/she coordinated the clearance and without calling the
Jeffco tower to do so yourself.
Juan
"Jeff Ryan" <Jeff...@wcom.com> wrote in message
news:e70b5fd6.01081...@posting.google.com...
Steven P. McNicoll
>
> You've just pointed out an instance in which the controller would
> specifically tell you that he/she will coordinate with Jeffco to pass
> through their Class D, essentially getting a clearance for you and passing
> it on to you so you know you're OK. This is very different from _assuming_
> that the controller is going to do this and flying through Class D without
> knowing for sure if he/she coordinated the clearance and without calling
the
> Jeffco tower to do so yourself.
>
If you're operating VFR, neither the radar controller nor the tower
controller can clear you through Class D airspace. There is no difference
between assuming the radar controller has coordinated your transition and
him telling you that he has done so.
Juan Jimenez
required when flying through Class D. AFAIK, that's the same as getting a
clearance.
From AOPA HQ:
You may be surprised that you and your friends are both correct. As I am
sure that you are aware you do not need clearance to enter Class C/D
airspace, but you do need to establish two way radio communications.
Typically if you utilize "flight following" the controllers will hand you
off to the next controlling entity. For example you might be on a ARTCC
"center" frequency and when you approach an airport with Class C airspace
they will hand you off the appropriate approach controller. What you have
to realize is that controllers like pilots are human and make mistakes. It
is in your best interest to keep ahead of the airplane and anticipate who
you will be talking to next. If you have not heard from ATC in quite some
time and have not received that handoff then by all means it would be a good
idea to query the controller. This is not very common but can happen and as
pilot in command you are responsible for the safe operation of the aircraft.
This puts the duty of assuring you are in communicating with the correct
controllers in your hands. I hope this helps clarify the situation.
From the AOPA web site:
For all its benefits, VFR flight following does not absolve you of your
pilot in command responsibilities. If you're receiving flight following, and
you fly into another airplane, the ground, or Class B or C airspace without
the required clearance, the fault is yours - not the controller's.
While the responsibility for staying clear of these "obstacles" is yours,
many controllers will warn you if you are entering an area of higher terrain
or getting close to Class B or C airspace. But VFR flight following is
never, I repeat never, a substitute for a clearance into Class B or C
airspace.
Because Center controllers live in an IFR world, many are not too
knowledgeable of the VFR rules you must observe. So watch your proximity to
Class B and C, and restricted areas. If in doubt, ask before you enter the
area in question: "Center, verify you are coordinating clearance through
Class B for me?" or, "Center, say the status of Restricted Area 6312?"
...
...
You will often be handed off to approach controllers, who are responsible
for their own chunks of air. Some approach controls will not allow Centers
to transfer VFR aircraft to them. In this case, Center should terminate its
service to you early enough to give you time to contact approach control.
If the Center doesn't give you the approach control frequency, ask for it.
In any case, be sure that you don't enter Class B or C airspace without the
appropriate clearance. And remember that even if you do get forwarded to
approach control, you must hear the approach controller utter the magic
words - "Cleared into Class B," if Class B is present.
"Steven P. McNicoll" <ronca...@writeme.com> wrote in message
news:tngjj44...@corp.supernews.com...
Marcelo Pacheco
You would be absolutely correct in a perfect world, where ATC never forgets
about you, nor make any mistakes, however in the real world, the pilot in
command of a flight about to enter restricted airspace or any other class of
airspace to which it isn't clear that the ATC facility he's in contact with is
responsible for should enquire about coordination/airspace status to be sure.
This way the pilot has his word on tape in case the FAA chase his tail at any
rate. If I knew you were my controller, I'd assume everything is ok, but
unfortunately I don't fly in your airspace (it's 1000nm from my home airport).
Marcelo Pacheco
PP-ASEL IFR
Newps
Juan Jimenez wrote:
> You've just pointed out an instance in which the controller would
> specifically tell you that he/she will coordinate with Jeffco to pass
> through their Class D, essentially getting a clearance for you and passing
> it on to you so you know you're OK.
But what you fail to grasp is it is not a clearance. It requires communication
with the facility that services that airspace. Every class D has an approach
control of some kind, as well as a tower. You need only contact one of the two.
> This is very different from _assuming_
> that the controller is going to do this and flying through Class D without
> knowing for sure if he/she coordinated the clearance and without calling the
> Jeffco tower to do so yourself.
You may assume because the controller is required to make that coordination.
The relavant document was posted several posts back.
>
Newps
>
> For all its benefits, VFR flight following does not absolve you of your
> pilot in command responsibilities. If you're receiving flight following, and
> you fly into another airplane, the ground, or Class B or C airspace without
> the required clearance, the fault is yours - not the controller's.
This is wrong simply because you don't need a clearance to enter class C.
>
>
> While the responsibility for staying clear of these "obstacles" is yours,
> many controllers will warn you if you are entering an area of higher terrain
> or getting close to Class B or C airspace. But VFR flight following is
> never, I repeat never, a substitute for a clearance into Class B or C
> airspace.
Again wrong. This is so basic as to render the whole opinion useless.
Kyler Laird
>> Ha! Tell that to the Meigs controllers.
>What are the circumstances that you have a problem?
I was using Following from LAF. I think they forgot
about me. As we were about to fly into the Class D
I gave them a wake up call and was told to contact
Tower. I changed frequencies to find the tower busy
with another aircraft (a Turbo Commander who also
came from LAF) and by the time I could get a word in,
I was under 4 miles out.
The controller gave me a stern warning (but not
nearly as bad as the one I got when I told Tower
where Signature told me to park). I later went to
the tower in person to clarify and the controller was
pretty cool about it. He said that they have
issues with Approach.
>The key here is that 92.129(c)(1) requires 2-way radio comm be
>established with the ATC FACILITY PROVIDING AIR TRAFFIC SERVICES
>[emphasis is mine]. This could be center, or approach, or the tower.
I agree. I wasn't confident about it then, but I am
now. Watch out!
Thank you.
--kyler
Steven P. McNicoll
>
> According to AOPA, this is not the case.
>
Then AOPA is wrong.
>
> We all know that radio contact is required when flying through Class D.
> AFAIK, that's the same as getting a clearance.
>
Then you know not, for radio contact is not the same as getting a clearance.
Like Class D airspace, there is no clearance required or available for VFR
aircraft to enter Class C airspace. The AOPA spokesperson is in error.
>
> Because Center controllers live in an IFR world, many are not too
> knowledgeable of the VFR rules you must observe. So watch your proximity
> to Class B and C, and restricted areas. If in doubt, ask before you enter
the
> area in question: "Center, verify you are coordinating clearance through
> Class B for me?" or, "Center, say the status of Restricted Area 6312?"
>
It's very unlikely a Center controller will ever coordinate transition
through Class C airspace or clearance through Class B airspace for you. The
airspace delegated to the approach control facility is typically quite a bit
larger then the actual Class C or Class B airspace. Controllers just don't
work traffic that far into another facility's airspace.
Craig Prouse
"Kyler Laird" <la...@gunsmoke.ecn.purdue.edu> wrote in message
news:9l9poe$a01$1...@mozo.cc.purdue.edu...
> >> Ha! Tell that to the Meigs controllers.
Kyler, tell us about LAIRD intersection on V7 just north of Meigs.
Is your family old Chicago money or something? :-)
Craig
Roger Halstead
If you walk the walk an talk the talk, I've found that whether flight
following, or IFR, I get treated the same.
I once told FtWaye that I;d like to start down for Muncie. The only reply
was "Approved"
Another time through the same area and I never had to change transponder
codes fromt he time I called in to MBS till I was at Muncie. Inbetween
airport areas they handed me off to the Different centers. Another plane
that was headed down to pick me up was 2,000 feet higher and he had to
switch to 1200 every time he left an area and call in when he reached the
next.
However, in the casse of kalamazoo and Battle creek, the same approach
control works both.
Whether VFR, or IFR they set you up for a pattern, or approach (IE expect
the visual) for one airport or the other. I was headed for battle creek on
a VFR flight plan...They were setting me up and told me to expect one of the
runways at Kalamazoo. Nor had they turned me ove to the tower at Battle
Creek. (Which I was watching go by on my left.)
That was when they told me to expect the pattern for what ever runway at
Kalamazoo.
I replied, "Ahhh...I'm headed for Battle Creek" They replied quickly to
call the Battle Creek tower. The tower asked me if I could still make the
base, or what ever (it's been a while) for one of the runways, and I replied
that I could with a right 270. they said that would be fine.
>
>
No, they don't give you a clearance when VFR, although I've received vectors
and clearances on a couple of occasions. <:-))
However on another occasion when the weather was stinky with limited
visibility, I had Fort Wayne tell me that they needed me to make a turn to
go around the airport (not quite their words) for traffic avoidance. I was
talking to them all the time and when it became evident I was going to cross
over the airport at 3000, they "requested" that I do some turns (I did get
vectored around the airport), but it was like most flight following rather
than IFR.
No problems, they just didn't want me flying directly over the airport at
3000 with the airliners and high performance military traffic
--
Roger Halstead (K8RI)
WWW.RogerHalstead.com
N833R, World's Oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2).
Roger Halstead
"Matthew S. Whiting" <whi...@epix.net> wrote in message
news:3B76D7CF...@epix.net...
> Juan Jimenez wrote:
> >
> > Not if you're VFR. You are required to have express clearance to
enter/cross
> > class D airspace. I don't think that requesting VFR traffic advisories
> > constitutes clearance to enter -any- class B, C or D airspace, nor do I
> > think it means it is the responsibility of the controller providing
> > advisories.
>
clas B requires specific clearance/permission to enter the airspace.
HOWEVER, in class C and D you may receive specific instructions to stay out
of the airport area.
--
Roger Halstead (K8RI)
WWW.RogerHalstead.com
N833R, World's Oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)
Juan Jimenez
>
> But what you fail to grasp is it is not a clearance. It requires
communication
> with the facility that services that airspace. Every class D has an
approach
> control of some kind, as well as a tower. You need only contact one of
the two.
Yes, I _know_ it's not a clearance. Positive comm has to be done anyway,
either by you or through coord by the ATC controller. If you're going to
that airport and you're about to enter the class C/D for the airport you're
going to be handed off to the tower. If you're passing through the airspace,
somebody has to let the tower know about it.
> You may assume because the controller is required to make that
coordination.
No, the controller is NOT require to make the coordination.
Juan
Lee
"R12345 cleared to HNL, turn right heading 300 intercept V16 resume own
navigation......is you destination HNL or HHI?"
I replied HHI.
ATC "Roger cleared to HNL .......or HHI.....whatever"
Im not sure if I was cleared to HNL, HHI or both.
Lee
"Roger Halstead" <rdha...@tm.net> wrote in message
news:Q03e7.450$9d.8...@newshog.newsread.com...
Steven P. McNicoll
>
> No, the controller is NOT require to make the coordination.
>
Yes, the controller IS required to make the coordination.
Steven P. McNicoll
"Marcelo Pacheco" <pac...@progress.com> wrote in message
news:3B785439...@progress.com...
>
> You would be absolutely correct in a perfect world,
>
I'm absolutely correct in the real world as well.
>
> where ATC never forgets about you, nor make any mistakes, however in the
> real world, the pilot in command of a flight about to enter restricted
airspace
> or any other class of airspace to which it isn't clear that the ATC
facility he's
> in contact with is responsible for should enquire about
coordination/airspace
> status to be sure. This way the pilot has his word on tape in case the
FAA
> chase his tail at any rate. If I knew you were my controller, I'd assume
> everything is ok, but unfortunately I don't fly in your airspace (it's
1000nm
> from my home airport).
>
Why would the FAA chase the pilot's tail if ATC does forget to coordinate
the transition through a Class D surface area? Whether ATC does it or not,
the responsibility to do it remains with ATC. Whether ATC does it or not,
the pilot is not expected to obtain his own authorization through Class D
airspace when in contact with a radar facility.
Steven P. McNicoll
>
> If you walk the walk an talk the talk, I've found that whether flight
> following, or IFR, I get treated the same. I once told FtWaye that
> I;d like to start down for Muncie. The only reply was "Approved"
>
Okay, but how do they "send" you anywhere while you're simply receiving
radar
traffic advisories?
FWA has Class C airspace, within the Class C airspace proper and the Outer
Area associated with it VFR aircraft can be assigned altitudes if necessary.
But if you haven't been assigned an altitude, why tell ATC you'd like to
start down? Why not just tell them you're starting down?
>
> Another time through the same area and I never had to change transponder
> codes fromt he time I called in to MBS till I was at Muncie. Inbetween
> airport areas they handed me off to the Different centers. Another plane
> that was headed down to pick me up was 2,000 feet higher and he had to
> switch to 1200 every time he left an area and call in when he reached the
> next.
>
Perhaps you told the initial controller you were headed for Muncie but the
other pilot did not.
>
> However, in the casse of kalamazoo and Battle creek, the same approach
> control works both. Whether VFR, or IFR they set you up for a pattern, or
> approach (IE expect the visual) for one airport or the other. I was
headed for
> battle creek on a VFR flight plan...They were setting me up and told me to
> expect one of the runways at Kalamazoo. Nor had they turned me ove to the
> tower at Battle Creek. (Which I was watching go by on my left.)
>
> That was when they told me to expect the pattern for what ever runway at
> Kalamazoo. I replied, "Ahhh...I'm headed for Battle Creek" They replied
> quickly to call the Battle Creek tower. The tower asked me if I could
still
> make the base, or what ever (it's been a while) for one of the runways,
and I
> replied that I could with a right 270. they said that would be fine.
>
Kalamazoo has a TRSA, TRSA procedures generally include sequencing of
arrival aircraft.
>
> However on another occasion when the weather was stinky with limited
> visibility, I had Fort Wayne tell me that they needed me to make a turn to
> go around the airport (not quite their words) for traffic avoidance. I
was
> talking to them all the time and when it became evident I was going to
> cross over the airport at 3000, they "requested" that I do some turns (I
did
> get vectored around the airport), but it was like most flight following
rather
> than IFR.
>
> No problems, they just didn't want me flying directly over the airport at
> 3000 with the airliners and high performance military traffic
>
Fort Wayne has Class C airspace, in Class C airspace ATC separates VFR
traffic from IFR traffic. In Class C airspace ATC does not have to
"request" that you make some turns, they can simply vector you just as they
would an IFR aircraft.
Newps
>
> Yes, I _know_ it's not a clearance. Positive comm has to be done anyway,
> either by you or through coord by the ATC controller. If you're going to
> that airport and you're about to enter the class C/D for the airport you're
> going to be handed off to the tower. If you're passing through the airspace,
> somebody has to let the tower know about it.
The controller you are receiving flight following from is required to coordinate
with the tower.
>
>
> > You may assume because the controller is required to make that
> coordination.
>
> No, the controller is NOT require to make the coordination.
Yes, the controller IS required to make that cooordination.
>
Juan Jimenez
> >
> The controller you are receiving flight following from is required to
coordinate
> with the tower.
There is nothing in the AIM or FAR that says this. The specific descriptions
of flight following and traffic advisories for VFR aircraft make no mention
of ATC being required to do anything, and in fact they don't even have to
tell you that they can no longer provide the services.,
> Yes, the controller IS required to make that cooordination.
No, they are not. Find the ref in AIM or FAR that says so.
Juan
Steven P. McNicoll
>
> There is nothing in the AIM or FAR that says this.
>
The requirement is in FAA Order 7110.65, that's what controllers follow.
7110.65M Air Traffic Control
Chapter 2. General Control
Section 1. General
2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS
b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization
when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that
will enter another facility's airspace.
NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each
area when in contact with a radar facility.
>
> The specific descriptions of flight following and traffic advisories for
VFR aircraft
> make no mention of ATC being required to do anything,
>
So if it's not mentioned in the AIM or the FARs that proves controllers
aren't required to do it? Air traffic control procedures and phraseology
for use by persons providing air traffic control services are prescribed in
FAA Order 7110.65, the AIM and FARs prescribe procedures and phraseology for
use by pilots.
>
> and in fact they don't even have to tell you that they can no longer
provide the services.
>
Yes they do, they are required to do so by FAA Order 7110.65.
Chapter 5. Radar
Chapter 5. Radar Section 1. General
5-1-13. RADAR SERVICE TERMINATION
a. Inform aircraft when radar service is terminated.
PHRASEOLOGY-
RADAR SERVICE TERMINATED (nonradar routing if required).
>
> No, they are not. Find the ref in AIM or FAR that says so.
>
Controller requirements are not found in the AIM or FARs, they are found in
FAA Order 7110.65. The applicable paragraph has been posted here several
times. What part of it do you not understand?
Newps
Don Lawton
covered in the FAA publication "Air Traffic Control 7110.65".
Specifically, in Section 6: Basic Radar Service to VFR Aircraft - Terminal
it says,
"7-6-8. CONTROL TRANSFER
a. Inform the tower of the aircraft's position and then instruct the pilot
to contact the tower."
Check it out here: http://www.faa.gov/ATPUBS/ATC/Chp7/atc0706.html
Juan Jimenez
order to AOPA and asking if I could use this order as a defense for a FAR
violation if I flew into Class B, C or D airspace without a clearance or
without radio contact and I was under radar flight following, here's AOPA's
response:
>I do not think you would be able to successfully defend your self using
this
>Order. I recently spoke to another member who while under flight following
>flew into Class B airspace with out clearance. This member was
consequently
>held in violation of 91.131. The controllers handbook truly is a group of
>recommendations for air traffic controllers and not by nature regulatory.
As
>a pilot you will be held to the standards of the FAR's as they define your
>responsibilities as the pilot in command. I hope this helps to clear up
>this matter for you. Please let me know if we can be of further
assistance.
I agree with this opinion from AOPA. As PIC my responsibilities and actions
are judged by the FAR's, not by an FAA order for ATC controllers.
Regards,
Juan
"Steven P. McNicoll" <ronca...@writeme.com> wrote in message
news:tnite7n...@corp.supernews.com...
Juan Jimenez
FiPe
>Sorry, but I disagree with you, and after pointing out this section of the
>order to AOPA and asking if I could use this order as a defense for a FAR
>violation if I flew into Class B, C or D airspace without a clearance or
Holy Cheese and Crackers! What is wrong with you. You are making us (Spanish
named folks) look bad!
Pretty simple: class C and D, as long as you are talking to approach/center
(receiving fly following) you have fulfilled the requirements of establishing
two-way radio comunication to enter or transit. They (approach or center) are
required to coordinate. You the pilot are not required nor expected to contact
the tower directly. NO ONE SAID ANYTHING ABOUT CLASS B. You must have a
clearance for class B.
If this is not clear enough, do it your way. I tried to do it your way...once.
The class D controller was puzzled about my call.
Fidel
Jon Carlson
I almost hate to get into this thread because I don't want to stay
here long, but...
This is the distinction others were trying to make long ago in this
thread between needing a "clearance" (i.e. explicit permission with
"magic words" that need to be spoken) to enter class B, and only
needing to "establish 2-way radio contact" to enter class C or D. The
AOPA response you posted is talking about someone who busted class B -
a definite no-no without an explicit clearance. The discussion in this
thread is talking about class C or D. Nowhere does it say radio
contact must be with the tower, and if you're using flight following
you've by definition established radio contact.
That is the difference. It is a legal one. And yes, it's defined in
the FARs.
-Jon C.
"Juan Jimenez" <fly...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Hhze7.91686$oh1.34...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
Don Lawton
I agree that VFR flight into Class B without having received a "Cleared to
enter Class B airspace" from ATC, and short of an inflight emergency, is
defenseless.
I was only referring to flight into Class D airspace. I would also include
Class C airspace. Neither requires a "clearance" to enter under VFR.
I particularly like The following from Steven NcNicoll earlier in this
thread:
*****
If you're receiving radar traffic advisories and your route takes you
through Class D airspace, the radar controller is required to coordinate the
transition of Class D airspace for you. You are not required or expected to
contact the tower yourself. See FAR 91.129(a), "Unless otherwise
authorized..."
FAA Order 7110.65M Air Traffic Control
Chapter 2. General Control
Section 1. General
2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS
b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization
when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that
will enter another facility's airspace.
NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each
area when in contact with a radar facility.
*****
I think the note above would cover your a** in court (for C & D airspace).
However, the following note also appears in Ch. 2, Sec. 1:
*****
NOTE-
Pilots are required to abide by CFR's or other applicable regulations
regardless of the application of any procedure or minima in this order.
*****
You'd never guess that the FAA has lawyers writing their publications, would
you?
BTW, what do you normally fly out of 52F. I'm in the yellow Husky.
Fly safe and smart,
-> Don
Kyler Laird
>Kyler, tell us about LAIRD intersection on V7 just north of Meigs.
I know where it is and that's the extent
of my knowledge about it.
You realize that there was a Laird aircraft
manufacturer? (No relation, as far as I'm
aware.)
>Is your family old Chicago money or something? :-)
Uh...no. Too bad - I'd kick in more to
Friends of Meigs.
--kyler
Steven P. McNicoll
>
> Sorry, but I disagree with you,
>
You say that as if this was a matter of opinion, it's not.
>
> and after pointing out this section of the order to AOPA and asking if I
> could use this order as a defense for a FAR violation if I flew into Class
B,
> C or D airspace without a clearance or without radio contact and I was
> under radar flight following,
>
How do you receive radar flight following without radio contact?
Why do you keep bringing Class B and Class C airspace into this discussion?
As has been stated here several times, Class B airspace requires a specific
clearance, but a clearance to enter Class C or Class D airspace is neither
required or even available.
>
> here's AOPA's response:
>
> >I do not think you would be able to successfully defend your self using
> this
> >Order. I recently spoke to another member who while under flight
following
> >flew into Class B airspace with out clearance. This member was
> consequently
> >held in violation of 91.131. The controllers handbook truly is a group
of
> >recommendations for air traffic controllers and not by nature regulatory.
> As
> >a pilot you will be held to the standards of the FAR's as they define
your
> >responsibilities as the pilot in command. I hope this helps to clear up
> >this matter for you. Please let me know if we can be of further
> assistance.
>
He's partially right, you won't be able to use paragraph 2-1-16.b. of FAAO
7110.65 in your defense if you're charged with violating FAR 91.131. But we
are not discussing operations in Class B airspace.
If he told you that you must contact the tower directly prior to entering
Class D airspace when receiving radar traffic advisories, he's wrong.
Please provide me with the name and E-mail address of the individual you've
been discussing this with so that I may straighten him out.
>
> I agree with this opinion from AOPA. As PIC my responsibilities and
actions
> are judged by the FAR's, not by an FAA order for ATC controllers.
>
Interesting. You choose to believe an opinion that is contrary to
published, verifiable documentation simply because it comes from someone at
AOPA? Why?
Kyler Laird
>>I do not think you would be able to successfully defend your self using
>this
>>Order. I recently spoke to another member who while under flight following
>>flew into Class B airspace with out clearance. This member was
>consequently
>>held in violation of 91.131.
Good info. I appreciate getting down to brass
tacks like this. How 'bout posting a URL for
the text of the decision?
I haven't heard anyone take issue with this
yet. Was the situation complicated or is this
evidence that Following *is* insufficient to
avoid violation?
Thank you.
--kyler
Newps
Steven P. McNicoll
"FiPe" <fi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010815145410...@mb-fy.aol.com...
>
> Pretty simple: class C and D, as long as you are talking to
approach/center
> (receiving fly following) you have fulfilled the requirements of
establishing
> two-way radio comunication to enter or transit. They (approach or center)
are
> required to coordinate. You the pilot are not required nor expected to
contact
> the tower directly. NO ONE SAID ANYTHING ABOUT CLASS B. You must have a
> clearance for class B.
>
I wouldn't include Class C airspace in that generalization. Class C
airspace is generally much smaller than the airspace delegated to the
approach control facility responsible for it. If you're approaching Class C
airspace and still on a Center frequency, something's not right.
David Brooks
news:B7A03568.37D8%dla...@flash.net...
> Juan,
>
> I agree that VFR flight into Class B without having received a "Cleared to
> enter Class B airspace" from ATC, and short of an inflight emergency, is
> defenseless.
>
> I was only referring to flight into Class D airspace. I would also include
> Class C airspace. Neither requires a "clearance" to enter under VFR.
>
> I particularly like The following from Steven NcNicoll earlier in this
> thread:
>
> *****
>
> If you're receiving radar traffic advisories and your route takes you
> through Class D airspace, the radar controller is required to coordinate
the
> transition of Class D airspace for you. You are not required or expected
to
> contact the tower yourself. See FAR 91.129(a), "Unless otherwise
> authorized..."
And I think the really salient point is that most flight training misses out
here. The FARs only talk about "the ATC facility ... providing air traffic
services" and I for one started by assuming that was the tower for a Class D
area. My Jepp textbook talked in terms of Tower. Only later do you discover
that it could be Approach, Center, or Tower, depending on your particular
circumstances, and since by then you are habituated to talk to Tower, you
wonder whether they are in fact expecting you.
Steven P. McNicoll
>
> Good info. I appreciate getting down to brass
> tacks like this. How 'bout posting a URL for
> the text of the decision?
>
> I haven't heard anyone take issue with this
> yet. Was the situation complicated or is this
> evidence that Following *is* insufficient to
> avoid violation?
>
Flight following is insufficient to enter Class B airspace, a clearance is
required. However, flight following is sufficient to transit Class D
airspace.
Craig Prouse
fly...@hotmail.com wrote on 8/15/01 11:35 AM:
> Sorry, but I disagree with you
You have to read something carefully before you can choose to agree or
disagree with it. Otherwise you're just being disagreeable.
> and after pointing out this section of the
> order to AOPA and asking if I could use this order as a defense for a FAR
> violation if I flew into Class B,
Of course not. No one said you could. Class B requires a clearance and
flight following is not a clearance. Everyone knows that, and that's not
what this thread was talking about. Read the subject line. This thread was
talking about D airspace (or C, which is essentially the same), which
doesn't require a clearance.
> C or D airspace without a clearance
For the Nth time, there is no clearance to operate in C or D airspace.
You've really got to overcome this conceptual difficulty or lazy
terminology, or whatever the problem is, because it's impeding your ability
to understand the present discussion.
> or without radio contact and I was under radar flight following
How could you be without radio contact when you are under flight following?
What the heck do you think flight following is, Juan?
If you've got flight following, you can't even get close to a Class C
without talking to the controlling agency, because the approach control that
handles the Class C is the same facility that provides flight following in
that vicinity. Are you aware of that? If not, I suggest you visit a Center
and a TRACON some time and take the tours.
The big question is about going through a Class D while talking to the
overlying approach control rather than the Class D tower. The whole point
of this thread, which it seems you've missed, is that the overlying approach
control is responsible for coordinating your transition through the Class D.
You do not have to contact the tower yourself. That's all there is to it.
> here's AOPA's response:
>> I do not think you would be able to successfully defend yourself
>> using this Order. I recently spoke to another member who while under
>> flight following flew into Class B airspace with out clearance.
>> This member was consequently held in violation of 91.131.
>> The controllers handbook truly is a group of recommendations for air
>> traffic controllers and not by nature regulatory.
AOPA's answer is perfectly valid and is not in conflict with anything anyone
has said here. Problem is, it's the right answer to the wrong question. It
only addresses the issue of the Class B clearance. If your question
included anything about Class C or D clearances, then you asked the wrong
question. AOPA's reply doesn't speak to your misunderstanding of the
requirements for entry into Class C or D airspace, nor your apparent
unfamiliarity with who it is that provides you with flight following
services and what those services entail.
> I agree with this opinion from AOPA. As PIC my responsibilities and actions
> are judged by the FAR's, not by an FAA order for ATC controllers.
If you want to approach it that way, fine. Which FAR says that flight
following is not two-way radio communication? Which FAR says that you need
anything other than two-way radio communication to enter C or D airspace?
Juan Jimenez
understand them. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
"Newps" <scn...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3B7AD70B...@home.com...
Juan Jimenez
following you can assume that it's ok to go through B, C or D. The
controlling facility of a class D or C is the tower, though there may be an
LOA. How do you know if there is or is not an LOA? If there isn't, and you
don't establish radio contact, you are in violation of the FAR. I've been in
situations where I'm flying VFR and under radar flight following,
meteorological conditions have deteriorated and the controller simply stops
responding to me altogether to deal with the IFR traffic coming in to an
international airport. Radar flight following is available if the workload
permits, that's what the order says.
"Jon Carlson" <jonca...@h-o-m-e-n-o-s-p-a-m.com> wrote in message
news:DDze7.967$P15.8...@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com...
Juan Jimenez
ask him for the details.
Juan
"Kyler Laird" <la...@gunsmoke.ecn.purdue.edu> wrote in message
news:9lekgb$2to$1...@mozo.cc.purdue.edu...
Juan Jimenez
>
> You say that as if this was a matter of opinion, it's not.
It is to me. Whether or not you agree with that has no bearing on what
actions I take as PIC in a situation like the one described.
> Why do you keep bringing Class B and Class C airspace into this
discussion?
Because the paragraphs you quoted out of the order do not make a distinction
between classes of airspace.
> Interesting. You choose to believe an opinion that is contrary to
> published, verifiable documentation simply because it comes from someone
at
> AOPA? Why?
No, I choose to take the FAR literally rather than say that an order which
IMO is in contradiction with the FAR is enough.
Juan
Juan Jimenez
"Craig Prouse" <cra...@apple.com> wrote in message
news:B7A02DC9.20AB6%cra...@apple.com...
> > C or D airspace without a clearance
>
> For the Nth time, there is no clearance to operate in C or D airspace.
It serves no purpose to take things out of context by selective quoting to
make a point. It doesn't work. I specifically said WITHOUT A CLEARANCE OR
ESTABLISHING RADIO CONTACT. Please do NOT selectively quote me to establish
a context different than what I posted.
> How could you be without radio contact when you are under flight
following?
Radio contact with anyone does not mean that I have met the requirements of
FAR 91. You know that as well as I do, unless you're trying to be dense for
the sake of arguing.
> AOPA's answer is perfectly valid and is not in conflict with anything
anyone
> has said here. Problem is, it's the right answer to the wrong question.
It
> only addresses the issue of the Class B clearance. If your question
> included anything about Class C or D clearances, then you asked the wrong
> question.
I specifically mentioned all three types of airspace.
> If you want to approach it that way, fine. Which FAR says that flight
> following is not two-way radio communication?
I'll turn that around: which FAR is it that says that two-way radio comm for
flight following purposes is equivalent to two way comm with the controlling
facility for any airspace, or specifically Class D or C?
Juan
Steven P. McNicoll
>
> Well, since after several exchanges AOPA agrees with me, I believe I do
> understand them.
>
No, it means you and AOPA share a misunderstanding of them.
karl l gruber
**Well, since after several exchanges AOPA agrees with me, I believe I
do
understand them. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree**
I think you've been hanging around with your good buddy Jim Bede too
much. He continuously talks out of both sides of his mouth.
karl
Newps
> controlling facility of a class D or C is the tower, though there may be an
> LOA. How do you know if there is or is not an LOA?
No tower in class C airspace owns the class C. That is always delegated to the
associated TRACON. Every facility will let the tower have a little slice of sky
so they can have automatic releases.
> If there isn't, and you
> don't establish radio contact, you are in violation of the FAR.
You are 100% wrong, get over it.
> I've been in
> situations where I'm flying VFR and under radar flight following,
> meteorological conditions have deteriorated and the controller simply stops
> responding to me altogether to deal with the IFR traffic coming in to an
> international airport. Radar flight following is available if the workload
> permits, that's what the order says.
But not in class C. In class C you and the controller are required to
participate.
>
Steven P. McNicoll
>
> But the argument that's being posted is that if you're under radar flight
> following you can assume that it's ok to go through B, C or D.
>
NO, No, NO, that is NOT the argument being posted, the argument that's being
posted is that if you're under radar flight following you can assume that
it's ok to go through Class D airspace.
>
> The controlling facility of a class D or C is the tower, though there may
be
> an LOA.
>
What do you base that on?
I work at Green Bay TRACON, we provide services to Appleton Tower. The
Letters of Agreement with Chicago and Minneapolis Centers indicate the
boundaries of controlled airspace delegated to Green Bay TRACON by the
Centers, the Appleton Class D airspace is wholly within that delegated
airspace. The Letter of Agreement between Green Bay TRACON and Appleton
Tower does not redelegate any controlled airspace to Appleton Tower.
Appleton Tower cannot launch an IFR aircraft until they obtain the approval
of Green Bay TRACON. Appleton Tower cannot authorize a SVFR operation until
they obtain the approval of Green Bay TRACON. So what facility is the
controlling facility of the Appleton Class D airspace?
>
> How do you know if there is or is not an LOA?
>
All facilities have Letters of Agreement with their adjacent facilities, but
in this regard they are superfluous. The requirement for the radar
controller to coordinate the transition through the Class D surface area is
found in FAA Order 7110.65, there's no need for it to be mentioned in a LoA.
>
> If there isn't, and you don't establish radio contact, you are in
violation of the FAR.
>
So any operation in Class D airspace requires two-way radio communications
with the tower? That's not the case, you need to review FAR 91.129. The
first sentence of FAR 91.129(a) states, "Unless otherwise authorized or
required by the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class D airspace
area, each person operating an aircraft in Class D airspace must comply with
the applicable provisions of this section." So if you are "otherwise
authorized", as you are when receiving radar traffic advisories from the
overlying Center or TRACON, you do not need to comply with any of the
following provisions of FAR 91.129.
>
> I've been in situations where I'm flying VFR and under radar flight
following,
> meteorological conditions have deteriorated and the controller simply
> stops responding to me altogether to deal with the IFR traffic coming in
to an
> international airport. Radar flight following is available if the workload
> permits, that's what the order says.
>
What order says that? FAA Order 7110.65? The same one that requires the
controller to coordinate the transition through Class D airspace? Your
argument states that the order is wrong, if it's wrong how can you use it to
support your argument?
Steven P. McNicoll
>
> It is to me.
>
That's akin to saying that, in your opinion, two and two make five. But
it's a fact that two and two make four.
>
> Whether or not you agree with that has no bearing on what
> actions I take as PIC in a situation like the one described.
>
Quite true, you are free to believe whatever you like, even when it's
contrary to all pertinent documentation.
>
> Because the paragraphs you quoted out of the order do not make a
> distinction between classes of airspace.
>
The applicable paragraph states, "Coordinate with the appropriate control
tower for transit authorization when you are providing radar traffic
advisory service to an aircraft that will enter another facility's
airspace." Class B and C airspace tends to be excluded since radar traffic
advisories are just a portion of the services provided in Class B and Class
C airspace.
>
> No, I choose to take the FAR literally rather than say that an order which
> IMO is in contradiction with the FAR is enough.
>
But you're not taking it literally, FAR 91.129 contains a provision for
operations in Class D airspace without direct communications with the tower.
There is no contradiction between the regulation and the order.
Steven P. McNicoll
>
> Radio contact with anyone does not mean that I have met the requirements
> of FAR 91. You know that as well as I do, unless you're trying to be dense
> for the sake of arguing.
>
If you're receiving radar traffic advisories from the overlying approach
control or Center, then you've met all the regulatory requirements necessary
for flight through Class D airspace.
I'd watch it with that "dense" stuff, you're pretty much living in a glass
house here.
>
> I specifically mentioned all three types of airspace.
>
Yes, but the answer you quoted applied only to Class B airspace. Did you
selectively quote the AOPA response?
>
> I'll turn that around: which FAR is it that says that two-way radio comm
> for flight following purposes is equivalent to two way comm with the
> controlling facility for any airspace, or specifically Class D or C?
>
FAR 91.129(a).
Kyler Laird
>Flight following is insufficient to enter Class B airspace, a clearance is
>required. However, flight following is sufficient to transit Class D
>airspace.
Oh, crap! I just re-read the AOPA statement and
realized it was Class B (not D) that they
mentioned.
Sorry about that. (At least my world is a
little less rocked.)
Thank you for the correction/clarification.
--kyler
Scott Aron Bloom
I CLEARLY stated, this does NOT apply to class Bravo.
There is a TON of case law on VFR pilots on Flight Following
getting busted for improperly entering class B airspace without
a CLEARANCE.
The whole question I was asking, was, is my responsibility as PIC of
have established two way communication fulfilled when I am talking
to approach/center as I enter class C/D airspace.
Your generalization that I MUST speak to a tower is completely wrong
for entering the airspace. I MUST for landing, but not for airspace.
I fly through/around numerous class C's and unless I am flying overhead, I
almost never speak to the tower, just approach.
And your VFR-IFR or VFR-Special VFR condition you are talking about
is a red herring. IFR traffic CERTAINLY DOES NOT need to speak to
the tower upon entering the airspace, they are on a clearance.
Scott
"Juan Jimenez" <fly...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:tjFe7.93334$oh1.34...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
Dan Luke
> If you've got flight following, you can't even get close to a Class C
> without talking to the controlling agency, because the approach control
that
> handles the Class C is the same facility that provides flight following in
> that vicinity.
I'm with you on everything but this, Craig. That's the way it's *supposed*
to work, but may not. As a student pilot, I barged right into Pensacola
class C in the happy belief that Eglin Approach (who had forgotten about me)
was "handling it". PNS Approach must've asked Eglin Approach WTF was going
on because Eglin finally called and handed me off. PNS sounded mighty
pissed.
Until this thread, I believed that I could have been violated for this. As I
understand Steven's posts, I was off the hook because it was Eglin that blew
it, not me, even though I should have asked Eglin sooner why they didn't
hand me off.
--
Dan
N9387D at BFM
Juan Jimenez
"karl l gruber" <kgr...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3B7B2FA2...@worldnet.att.net...
Steven P. McNicoll
>
> The person at AOPA who handled this is Martin Chandler, you might want to
> ask him for the details.
>
I have discussed this at some length with Martin Chandler. He is not a
person that allows facts or logic to influence his opinions. Our discussion
follows:
This is an Info Request from the AOPA Website.
The following information was provided:
Name: Steven McNicoll
AOPA Member? Yes
E-mail Address: ronca...@writeme.com
Subject: Flight Following/VFR Approach into Class D
Request:
In a usenet forum discussion, one Juan Jimenez has declared that a pilot
must, in all cases, contact the tower directly prior to transiting Class D
airspace. He states that his opinion was supported by AOPA's Martin
Chandler. It may be that Mr. Jiminez misunderstood Mr. Chandler, I'd like
some clarification from AOPA on this issue.
Mr. McNicoll,
Yes sir, I have been in discussion with Mr. Jimenez about the
responsibilities of a pilot in command when utilizing "flight following".
The discussion centered around the issue of responsibility for proper radio
communication when transitioning airspace. While it is standard procedure
for a controller to "hand off" aircraft leaving their airspace to the
appropriate controller of the adjoining airspace (Class D,C,B). It still
remains the pilots responsibility to assure proper two way communication is
established and clearance given when entering Class B areas. The
controllers well commonly "hand off" the pilot in question to the next
controller but if this is not accomplished before entering the adjoining
airspace, the pilot in command is subject to violation of FAR
91.129,91.130,91.131. I personally have never seen this become a problem
with the exception of flights into Class B airspace. Unfortunately many
pilots feel that merely talking to approach control grants them the required
clearance into that airspace, and have had enforcement actions taken against
them. I am also including a very good article on this subject for further
clarification:
http://oraweb.aopa2.org/ftmag/article.cfm?article=2931
Thanks for contacting AOPA. Be sure to let us know if we can help in any
other way.
Sincerely,
Marty Chandler
Aviation Technical Specialist
Aviation Services Department
800-872-2672
martin....@aopa.org
Mr. Chandler,
Thank you for your response. Perhaps I should have stressed heavier that
the original question was ONLY in regard to Class D airspace. Mr. Jiminez,
for whatever reason, expanded it to include Class C and D airspace as well.
For your convenience, here is a copy and paste of the original message in
the thread:
Question to one and all,
When flying using Flight Following flying into class D airspace, usually I
get handed off to the tower freq ~8 miles off. Same goes when flying a
practice
approach in VFR conditions without an IFR clearance.
My question is this, what happens if Center, does not hand you off in time,
ie getting handed off inside the 5 mile radius. It was my impression, that
I am fine. I am in two way communication with ATC.
However, speaking to a friend of mine, who happens to be a tower controller
for a class D airport, he was saying that I am not in the clear here. Since
I was not in 2 way with the Tower.
My basic response was, you got to be kidding me. Doesn't Center talk to you
guys? What about an IFR approach to minimums in actual, I know I have been
dropped off inside the 5 miles then! Knowing that and IFR clearance is
just, cleared to the location..
His stance was as pilot, I am responsible for contacting the tower outside
of the 5 miles just as if I was not using flight following.
FAR 91.129 covers this, 91.129.c(1) says " (1) Arrival or through flight.
Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC
facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated
in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that
airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that
airspace."
My basic read from that is I am in 2 way with "an" ATC but not "the" atc,
however, Center is "proving air traffic services".
The other gotcha is, The class D (TTD)in question lies under the outer shelf
of a class C airport (PDX), and I am not speaking with Center, but rather I
am working with PDX approach.
Any thoughts?
Scott
CFII-ASEL/AMEL
N1909V
You can view the entire thread by going to
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&safe=off&th=1b12da419da722ff,92&start0
The "Flight Following" article by Robert Snow states, at least three times,
that a clearance is required for VFR aircraft to enter Class C airspace.
That is not the case, Class C airspace, like Class D, requires only that
two-way radio communications be established with ATC prior to entry.
If an aircraft is landing at an airport in Class D airspace, the radar
controller should terminate flight following or transfer communications at a
point where the pilot can establish communications with the tower prior to
entering Class D airspace. But if the aircraft is transitioning through
Class D airspace, the radar controller is required to coordinate the
transition. The pilot is not required or expected to contact the tower
himself. See FAR 91.129(a), "Unless otherwise authorized...".
FAA Order 7110.65M Air Traffic Control
Chapter 2. General Control
Section 1. General
2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS
b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization
when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that
will enter another facility's airspace.
NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each
area when in contact with a radar facility.
Mr. McNicoll,
After reading the question originally asked I better understand what you are
referring to. The interpretation of 91.129 is in question here. Does
communication with flight following satisfy the requirements of "two way
radio communication with the ATC facility providing air traffic services".
In this case flight following provided by center or another approach control
center would not be the "ATC providing are traffic services" for the Class D
area. The tower controllers have the authority over the airspace and
therefore an aircraft transitioning should be in direct contact with the
tower and not "flight following". As you and others have mentioned this is
commonly accomplished with a handoff but it still remains the pilots
responsibility to assure this is done as per 91.129. Thanks for contacting
AOPA, please let us know if we can be of further assistance.
Marty Chandler
AOPA Aviation Services
Mr. Chandler,
What you say is contrary to the documentation that I provided. Do you have
anything at all that supports your position?
Steven P. McNicoll
Mr. McNicoll,
The support documentation you are inquiring about would be FAR
91.129/130/131. Again, the information in the Air Traffic Controllers
Handbook that you mention is not regulatory. You may consider this
information much like an Advisory Circular, these procedures should be
accomplished but are not required by the FAR's. It is always a good idea to
understand the responsibilities of another member of the system, in this
case the Air Traffic Controllers. This does not release a pilot from their
responsibility, assuring two way radio communication, as per the FAR's. I
hope this is helpful to you and please let us know if we can be of further
assistance.
Marty Chandler
AOPA Aviation Services
> Mr. McNicoll,
>
> The support documentation you are inquiring about would be FAR
> 91.129/130/131.
>
There is nothing in FAR 91.129, FAR 91.130 or FAR 91.131 which supports your
position.
>
> Again, the information in the Air Traffic Controllers Handbook that you
> mention is not regulatory.
>
It is as far as ATC is concerned, and it is not a "Handbook", it is an
"Order". FAA Order 7110.65 REQUIRES the radar controller to coordinate the
transition of Class D airspace for any aircraft he is providing radar
traffic advisories. It is not an option. It is not, by itself, an
additional service. In for a penny, in for a pound; when the controller
agreed to provide radar traffic advisories, he agreed to coordinate the
transition of any Class D airspace along the pilot's route of flight. If
the controller fails to do that it is he that is responsible for the
unauthorized entry into Class D airspace, not the pilot. Any doubt in that
regard is removed by the note accompanying the pertinent subparagraph:
FAA Order 7110.65M Air Traffic Control
Chapter 2. General Control
Section 1. General
2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS
b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization
when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that
will enter another facility's airspace.
NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each
area when in contact with a radar facility.
>
> You may consider this information much like an Advisory Circular, these
> procedures should be accomplished but are not required by the FAR's.
>
FAA Order 7110.65 is to controllers what the FARs are to pilots, the
procedure MUST be accomplished by the controller.
>
> It is always a good idea to understand the responsibilities of another
> member of the system, in this case the Air Traffic Controllers. This
> does not release a pilot from their responsibility, assuring two way
> radio communication, as per the FAR's.
>
So what you're saying, then, is that unless a pilot is responding to an
in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, he must, in ALL cases,
establish direct two-way radio communications with the control tower prior
to entering the Class D airspace. Is that correct?
>
> I hope this is helpful to you and please let us know if we can be of
> further assistance.
>
Actually, it hasn't. The question was why you've taken a position contrary
to available documentation and opposite to FAA policy. You've not answered
that question.
Steven P. McNicoll
Mr. McNicoll,
I believe we are misunderstanding each other. I am not taking a position,
but rather just stating what the FAR's require. You are correct the Air
Traffic
Controllers handbook is regulatory the Air Traffic Controllers. As pilots
though we are bound by the FAR's, and in this case 91.129 (c)(1), which
requires each person to establish two way radio communications with the
ATC facility providing services prior to transitioning or arriving in Class
D
airspace. The FAA Order we have been discussing allows us to know as
pilots that they will be providing a handoff to the appropriate controller
as
we approach a Class D area. The question is, who is responsible if this
handoff does not occur? My feeling and interpretation of the regulation is
that the pilot would be held responsible in this case. It has been my
experience that this scenario rarely if ever occurs but if it were to, I
would
query the controller providing flight following about the entrance into the
Class D airspace. I do not mean to imply that pilots should cancel flight
following or take it upon themselves to contact the tower but rather assure
that the tower is aware of their presence if they have any reason to doubt
contact has not been made. Air Traffic Controllers are professionals like
pilots but we are both prone to mistakes. If I feel that my aircraft may
have been "lost in the system" and the Class D tower facility may not be
aware of my intentions, I would not feel comfortable continuing the flight
with out at least a query to the controller.
Marty Chandler
AOPA Aviation Services
>
> Mr. McNicoll,
>
> I believe we are misunderstanding each other. I am not taking a position,
> but rather just stating what the FAR's require.
>
Mr. Chandler,
I mean no offense, but that is simply not the case. You are definitely
taking a position contrary to FAR 91.129. FAR 91.129(a) states, in very
clear language, that once authorized by ATC, compliance with FAR 91.129 is
not required.
Sec. 91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.
(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required by the ATC facility
having jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area, each person operating an
aircraft in Class D airspace must comply with the applicable provisions of
this section. In addition, each person must comply with Secs. 91.126 and
91.127. For the purpose of this section, the primary airport is the airport
for which the Class D airspace area is designated. A satellite airport is
any other airport within the Class D airspace area.
You've completely ignoring FAR 91.129(a).
>
> You are correct the Air Traffic Controllers handbook is regulatory the Air
> Traffic Controllers. As pilots though we are bound by the FAR's, and in
> this case 91.129 (c)(1), which requires each person to establish two way
> radio communications with the ATC facility providing services prior to
> transitioning or arriving in Class D airspace.
>
Yes, unless otherwise authorized by ATC, in accordance with FAR 91.129(a),
as is the case when receiving radar traffic advisories.
>
> The FAA Order we have been discussing allows us to know as pilots that
> they will be providing a handoff to the appropriate controller as we
approach
> a Class D area.
>
No, Mr. Chandler, a handoff is a radar function, it is the transfer of radar
identification from one radar controller to another when radio
communications with the aircraft will be transferred. There will be no
handoff, there will be no transfer of radio communications. The radar
controller will simply coordinate the transition of Class D airspace.
>
> The question is, who is responsible if this handoff does not occur?
>
The radar controller will be held responsible if he does not comply with FAA
Order 7110.65.
>
> My feeling and interpretation of the regulation is that the pilot would be
> held responsible in this case.
>
Your feeling and interpretation are incorrect. Remember, the pilot is NOT
expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each area when in
contact with a radar facility.
>
> It has been my experience that this scenario rarely if ever occurs but if
> it were to, I would query the controller providing flight following about
the
> entrance into the Class D airspace. I do not mean to imply that pilots
> should cancel flight following or take it upon themselves to contact the
> tower but rather assure that the tower is aware of their presence if they
> have any reason to doubt contact has not been made. Air Traffic
> Controllers are professionals like pilots but we are both prone to
mistakes.
> If I feel that my aircraft may have been "lost in the system" and the
Class
> D tower facility may not be aware of my intentions, I would not feel
> comfortable continuing the flight with out at least a query to the
controller.
>
You can certainly do that if you wish, but there is no need.
I would like to suggest that you contact Mr. Jiminez and advise him that the
information you provided was your opinion only, and is not supported by the
FARs or any FAA publication and is contrary to written FAA policy. He
accepted your statements as fact, apparently because you put "AOPA Aviation
Services" after your name.
Sincerely,
Steven P. McNicoll
Mr. Chandler responded to my last message, but I've lost it. Essentially he
said we'll just have to agree to disagree.